Berserker V Guardian solved PLEASE READ

[EQJun]

<DIV>I have read the boards top to bottom and it appears that the core issue at hand is aggro control.  I have heard some pretty rediculous ideas to rectify the situation and some very reasonable ones.  I am looking for effectiveness and have come up with something.  Hear me out....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, we have to look at the imbalance between guardians and berserkers.<BR><BR><STRONG>Gear and weapons - </STRONG>completele balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG>Aggro - </STRONG>complete imbalance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix for aggro....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok for example, a berserker at level X gets Y ability.  Y ability does whatever(offensive manuver) and generates Z amount of aggro.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Now a guardian of level X gets ability YY.  YY ability does whatever(defensive manuver) and generates ZZ amount of aggro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now Z does not equal ZZ.  The fix lies in that equation.  ZZ has to equal or be greater than Z.  Since berserkers do more dps, I would suggest making the ZZ greater than the Z.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A mathematical approach to helping guardians with calculating ZZ would be to find out the % difference between a berserkers DPS and a guardians DPS.  Say a beserker does roughly 25% more dps than a guardian on average.  Allow ZZ to equal 25% more than the value of Z.  This would allow guardians to pull more aggro than berserkers, but within reason.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Skills - </STRONG>I have not experienced enough of the game thus far to honestly comment on the skills each class has.  I would assume if you regulate the ZZs and the Zs with respect to aggro, skills would not be much of an issue.  If it is the case to add an opposite to berserk, where a warrior procced a "protect mode" when upon getting hit a chance arises to go into a protective state for a short duration while lowering offensive capabilites, acting as the polar opposite of berserk I am all for it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>New skill suggestion for guardians.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Skill Name: Stalwart</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recast Time: 3 seconds</DIV> <DIV><BR>Duration : 12 hours</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cost: 35 power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uses 1 focus gem</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Effect: When struck by an enemy the Guardian has a chance to take a defensive stance, "Stable".  This stance lasts for 10 seconds (just as berserk does).  While Stable, the Guardian has an increased damage mitigation, but lowered offensive capabilities.  Each offensive swing has an aggro enhanced effect to counter the loss of damage done due to the nature of the stance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that's what I see as a balancing issue for guardian.  I'm sure we could come up with a more creative name than Stable, but you get the jist.  This is what I would see as a class defining ability.  It mirrors berserk in all facets, just as a complete opposite.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devs,  what do you think of an ability like this for guardians?  Have you already contemplated such an idea?  If so, why'd it flop?  Thanks in advance guys, hope this post helps some. </DIV>

[Kinni]

<DIV>Good to see that someone understands.  The problem is agro, not DPS, not gear, not skills.  Even the zerkers admit on their boards that certain skills generate way too much agro.  Fix the agro, fix the classes.  Short and sweet.</DIV>

[Llam]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Wow. That made about as much sense as Gary Coleman appearing in Postal 2.</FONT></DIV>

[gggun]

<DIV>Sorry not good enough, this wouldn't even come close to fixing the imba problem. Think about it, this ability you propose would have ZERO use when soloing, it would only have a use when MTing. Unlike Bloodlust which awesome as MT and awesome as solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No sense reading biased Zerker posts on our Guardian board, just ignore them and they will go away. </DIV>

[Kinni]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gggunit wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sorry not good enough, this wouldn't even come close to fixing the imba problem. Think about it, this ability you propose would have ZERO use when soloing, it would only have a use when MTing. Unlike Bloodlust which awesome as MT and awesome as solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No sense reading biased Zerker posts on our Guardian board, just ignore them and they will go away. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>So with your logic, I guess I'll just wait for the wizard to be able to use vanguard too.  I mean come on, if zerkers can and they're supposed to be the DPS of the warriors, then....</P> <P>/sarcasm off</FONT></P> <P>Seriously, Guardians aren't DPS, they're GUARDIANS.  There is no reason for them to get an equivalent offensive ability to Bloodlust.  If you're complaining about the guardian as a solo subclass, then go play another subclass.  The only real problem we've been discussing is the Guardians' inability to hold taunt compared to a Berzerker, when in the same group.  Beyond that, learn to play your toon.</FONT></P>

[TsunamiBlade]

That is a start on fixing the holding of agro 5 stars for you my friend

[Dreg]

<DIV>I dont see what the big deal is, im a lv 32 guardian and i have no problems holding aggro, try using your abilitys,  i like to use intervene, now @ App3 and cons white to me, its last 12 hours and uses 2 constration bubs, so u can cast this on the 2 party memebers and forget about it, u can also cast allay on the 3rd party member but it only last 2 and half mins, or if u want to use your defesive stances u can cast intervien on one person and dig in / soldiers stance on your self and use that, personaly i dont use defsive stances unless im fighting high lv named or mobs 10 levels higher then me, also equip some DW weapons this will give u much more aggro over sheild and 1hs , if u do lose aggro, and have intervene casted on the right person, u can draw it back pretty easly,  Bards, Zerkers, and assains seem to need it the most, clercis wont draw aggro less u get a add from a sep encounter wich u if your good and cycle 4 grp buffs and aggro it easly and never switch targets, giveing the enc a much easyer time to mez, enc getting hit ? try taunting before u break mez. As far as bloodlust issue, simple, tell tem not to use it when guard is being main tank, problem sovled, less whinning. Guards are fine and are awsome tanks, read yuor skills and try diff things, there are many ways to work around aggro, also make sure your group isnt newbs, like peopel buffing in battle, wizzies over nuking or to early, this is there fault not ours, aggro magement is a group effort not jsut soley the tanks responseability, takes everyone in grp using common sence for it to work, thats all i can think of. and btw iv seen zerkers my lv tank ,its not pretty nore power effciant for the group. i look at zekers more of a dps class and a secondary tank if not fighting high lv reds. try it, youl see</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let the flaming begin, i dont care, im going all the way to lv 50 i love the guardian class</DIV>

[EQJun]

<DIV>Glad to have honest feedback from a guardian 30+ instead of the normal 21 guardian crieing about this and that.  Thanks for the feedback, I'm sure we'll both be slammed by the 21s though.  Funny how intellegence is more of a hinderance on balance than the actual balance of the classes themselves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5 stars for you sir.  </DIV>

[lailoken]

<DIV><FONT color=#339900 size=4>So gggunit let me get this straight as a "guardian" you want to be able to solo. I mean come on as a guardian you should want to guard something. I do pretty well soloing but I think we all agree that you get more experience from groups anyway.</FONT></DIV>

[Azry]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0033 size=4>Allow guardians to mitigate special attacks. Problem solved IMO.</FONT></DIV>

[Ryan]

Not sure about the higher end game but as a level 22 Guardian I have had no problem maintaining aggro in any group I have been in, Berserker or no Berserker.As long as I am the first to pull I can keep mobs focused on me throughout the entire fight. My tactic is to pull with Anger, cast all my group buffs on the run back to party's camp (Battle Tactics, Rallying Cry, Call to Arms), and then proceed to Shout, Taunting Blow, then Hold the Line for the rest of the fight. (Maybe throw in a couple more Angers for solo mobs or Shouts for multiple encounters) Soldier's Stance is always up and I usually have Intervene, Allay on main healer with Sentinel on stand-by just in case.Now this has worked well for me so far and usually leads to some pretty boring experience grinds.The only problem I have had is the fact that even with 1200+ AC and 50+ AGI, I am still getting drilled for 300+ points with mobs special attacks which they tend to perform more often the regular. Only when mobs run out of Power do I see any significant damage mitigiation. This is really kind of aggravating because I have spent so much time upgrading equipment and its effects are negligible for a good portion of the battle.

[Taurcl]

<DIV>Axryal : Guardians CAN mitigate special attacks. I dont have the logs to prove it but Ive done enough testing to be totally convinced of that. That subject was finally dying down because I think alot of people were realizing the same thing. There is no problem with AC mitigating special attacks. It is not clearly apparently due to the range of damage that can be dealt via mob special attacks but with close inspection you would see that it does in fact work fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a 'for instance'. Ive seen wizards get hit for 500 (with their crappy ac). Ive never been hit for over 400 unless it was via Harm Touch and even hits that high are rare... which has exceeded that and is probably not physically based anyway hehe. Most likely magic dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in full AQ armor / player crafted pristine helm and jewlery. Level 27, my AC in my regular group sits around 1900 and depending on what buffs proc sometimes I go over 2000. AC Rules and mitigates properly... cuz whenever our bruiser tanks with his 1000ish AC  he sucks all of the healers mana. =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are 'almost' fine imo. I would like our taunts to be a little more effective in those weird circumstances where you lose agro but 99% of the time what we got works just fine. Id also like a secondary AE taunt for when extra mobs pop on our head but you cant have everything you want eh?<BR><BR>And for that guy up there complaining about zerks soloing better than guardians, I dunno I solo just fine and when I want to turn the damage on I really dont think my DPS is that bad (obviously not as good as zerk but still good imo). I agree with the posters who say most of the whiners are still level 21ish because guardians get better and better every level... imo we even got an ok DPS jump post 25. and the higher I get the less trouble I have with agro...</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Dreg]

<DIV>Ok, so your getting drilled for 300+ by specials on incoming, this is also a easy fix, its called grouping with shamen, and have him  cast ward on you, this will keep you from taking dmg on incoming.  My fav grp set up is me, cleric, shamen, Enchanter or bard, and 2 Scout types, for dps and evac if needed, this set up will yeild you with non stop killing, personaly i dont care for mages, they have hard time hitting reds, wizzies are ok, if u want to AE yellow cons, i normaly will only take a wiz if i cant find a enchanter, not trying to diss mages or anytihng, i jsut done have alot use for them yet for the encounters i normaly choose to engage in, maybe in the higher game this will change, i also think guards having a hard time holding aggro are ussign there defesvie stances ( soldiers stance, dig in ) this lower your DPS and is simply not needed with a solid grp, at 32 i rarely rarely us it, when i use it is when im in a emergcy, healer oom or what not and i will use dig in and hunker down and let the dps fisnish the job, drop using defesive stances and use your protection abilitys on party members that draw aggro the most, when they get aggro you will in turn pary / intercept wich jsut gives u aggro back, you will figgure this out after a few pulls, also a note on sentinal im not sure if its actully working, it gives no icon on the person you cast it on, and it uses no constration, intervein, allay, stand firm all gives icons for the person you cast them on in there buff bar, this has led me to belive that sentinal  may be broken i havent had time to fully test this ability yet though in isolated encounters</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dregan Darklithium of Guk Server</DIV>

[Dreg]

<DIV>Oh yea and in case people where wondering my AC is 1840 unbuffed and around 2300 buffed, and 3000 HP buffed</DIV>

[Ainm]

Azryal, as I said in the other post, many special attacks are not melee based, rather based on any number of resists. What is your rationale for mitigation of any type of special ability damage, regardless of the type?If you have no rationale for that and instead think we should observably and significantly mitigate only physical special attacks, why do you think that would make any sort of difference?

[Rie]

<DIV>Very nice posts from Taurclax and Dregan. Am about to ding to 28 myself, and have had very similar experiences as them.</DIV>

[Death4]

<DIV>"Dregan Darklithium of Guk Server"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's sad that your sig was the only think you had said that was gramatically correct.  Go public school!</DIV>

[dinner da]

<DIV>I'm seeing some lvl 30s chime in about this issue now, and the consensus seems to be that guardians are okay. From what they say they're still using mostly fighter skills (except for allay and some others), and I'm wondering what they think of guardian skills specifically.  I'm mostly interested in finding out if we get a defense skill as good or better than what zerkers get for offense. I don't want to [Removed for Content] anyone; I'm just interested in figuring out how we can improve our class if we need it, and a skill that increases defense (or increases mitigation of special attacks) and increases aggro would be a great addition to our class.</DIV>

[Dreg]

<DIV>Bite me man im never gramatically correct, prolly cuz im not some punk little nerd who flames how people choose to type, u sound like some stuck up tie wearing office wennie who reads to many books and dots his "i's" , leave my edge mah cation out of it</DIV>

[Syraxen]

<DIV>My solution would be to add a new ability like the old yaulps from eq1, perhaps 30 seconds duration or a min, though it would do several things, first give increased ac and defensive mititation (we are a defensive tank afterall) secondly and more importantly act as a strong AE taunt.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would do several things, first of all it would let us get some good agro which is needed, especially on group encounters, keeping agro quite often isnt the problem however getting it in the first place can be, especially on a group of mobs.  It would give us defensive bonuses to balance out against the beserker's damage output (without stepping on thier toes by giving us increased damage which i dont think we should have) and in the defensive part would also help a bit in soloing.  Of course it goes without saying that it should stack with all our current defensive skills, it would pre pretty pointless if you got no defensive bonus by having soldiers stance up when using it.</DIV>

[Azry]

<DIV>Let me clarify: allow guardians to mitigate *physical* special attacks ala wild swings and the like. </DIV>

[Death4]

<DIV>"Bite me man im never gramatically correct, prolly cuz im not some punk little nerd who flames how people choose to type, u sound like some stuck up tie wearing office wennie who reads to many books and dots his "i's" , leave my edge mah cation out of it"<BR><BR>Shut the **mods 4 teh win!!1!** up and take my order.  <BR><BR>If you actually learned something in school you might not sound like a 4 year old when you open your mouth.  Go back and get your G.E.D. before your excessive use of commas blinds someone.<BR><BR>Comma: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A punctuation mark ( ,&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> used to indicate a separation of ideas or of elements within the structure of a sentence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Period: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A punctuation mark ( .&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> indicating a full stop, placed at the end of declarative sentences and other statements thought to be complete, and after many abbreviations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note the difference.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[range]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Death40k wrote:<BR> <DIV>"Dregan Darklithium of Guk Server"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's sad that your sig was the only think you had said that was gramatically correct.  Go public school!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Did anyone else see the humor in this?  I'm not usually a grammar tyrant, but when someone mocks a poster's grammar with poor grammar himself, I succumb to the temptation.</P> <P> </P> <P>think = thing</P> <P>had said = said</P> <P>gramatically = grammatically</P> <P> </P> <P>Two spelling mistakes and one tense mistake.  Maybe you shouldn't throw stones?</P>

[range]

<DIV>Btw, nice post by EQJunky.  If you look at the warrior subclasses, it is comprised of three general things: mitigation (whether from AC or other means), agro and DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It stands to reason then, that if Berserkers and Guardians are to be equal, and a Berserker's DPS is inherently greater, then a Guardian's agro generation or mitigation (read: tankability) needs to be greater than a Berserker's.  As I understand the direction for both subclasses, the mitigation should be the same.  Therefore, agro generation is the only logical Guardian aspect to increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good solution, but there are some leaps of logic that may not be true.  I'm not familiar enough with DPS versus agro generation to state decidely that 1 DPS = 1 unit of agro (I'm not even sure how you measure agro), but I don't believe the relationship is quite that succinct.  I do like your skill's name and definition though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by range10 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Dreg]

<DIV>Again you **mods 4 teh win!!1!**, i use bad grammer cuz i choose to, i dont care, i have no desire to sit here and use proper grammer, my post are fast and sloppy, why ? cuz i spend my time advancing my class rather then sit here and whine and flame, grow up. does bad grammer make me less of a man then you ? ehh ehh ?, i make 60 grand a year as networking and computer techinican, hows that for a G.E.D.  while you where sitting here wasting time  checking your spelling and grammer to make yourself look smart i made LV 33 last night, what did you achieve ? </DIV>

[Fable_E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dinner dave wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm seeing some lvl 30s chime in about this issue now, and the consensus seems to be that guardians are okay.  I'm mostly interested in finding out if we get a defense skill as good or better than what zerkers get for offense. I don't want to [Removed for Content] anyone; I'm just interested in figuring out how we can improve our class if we need it, and a skill that increases defense (or increases mitigation of special attacks) and increases aggro would be a great addition to our class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dave - Gear is still a huge difference as noted but there is a difference that is more noticible 30 and on...</P> <P>You get more options and I love options.  My mitigation is great, you see an upgrade to hunker down, and you start to see some combos:</P> <UL> <LI>Taunting Challange</LI> <LI>Desperate Flurry - Haste at the cost of End to maintain.</LI> <LI>Dig In</LI></UL> <P>Really a good combo for Group x2 bosses.  </P> <P>I care little lately for the Beserker issue that I helped fuel.  I tank better than them and that is enough for me.  If I group with a buddy of mine (Zerker) I let him MT and I Allay him and Stun mobs.</P> <P>My gear is rockin and my abilities are all App 3 or better... Im very happy with being a Guardian.<BR></P>

[S]

All though at lvl 22, I'm more then happy with the profession. There have been times were I wasn't able to pull an aggro off a group member.

[Death4]

<DIV> <P>"Did anyone else see the humor in this?  I'm not usually a grammar tyrant, but when someone mocks a poster's grammar with poor grammar himself, I succumb to the temptation.</P> <P>think = thing</P> <P>had said = said</P> <P>gramatically = grammatically</P> <P>Two spelling mistakes and one tense mistake.  Maybe you shouldn't throw stones?"</P> <P> </P> <P>Yeah, I am very well aware of this.  I didn't edit it because it's not important.  The point was when people type <BR><BR>"omafg rhyaheghheik beat that omgfg l33t dhit arg u can u uu uuuuuu ,,,,"<BR><BR>It's aggrivates the hell out of most people.  It's really not that hard to be considerate and type legable.  And no, I don't take more time to spell check and crap, as you've seen.  It's just common sense to type the TWO EXTRA LETTERS to form the actual word "you".</P></DIV>

[range]

<DIV>Heh, the funny thing is that I agree with you Death.  I just completely ignore those types of posts.  It really is too much of an effort to decipher, and the few posts I have translated haven't been worth it anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry I picked over your post, I just couldn't resist :smileywink:</DIV>