ATT: GUARDIANS

[EQJun]

<DIV>First, I don't want to come across rude to some of you, but you need to grasp the cold hard reality of what this game is about.<BR><BR>#1.  You are not the only tank class, nor are you supposesd to be supperior over the other fighter sub classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2.  The notion that guardians should have a seperate stronger suit of armor all to themselves is ludicrous.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#3.  Balance issues with berserkers should not be solved by nerfing berserkers.  The issue is solely in aggro.  Aggro per skill should be bumped up significantly for guardians, that would solve the problem.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#4.  You are not the sumpreme tank that the warrior was in EQ1.  You are the same as berserkers, paladins, shadow knights, monks and bruisers.  Just a different flavor. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#5.  Read number 4. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#6.  This is not Everquest 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to balance.  I feel the guardian is the marginal winner in the total damage mitigation rank, and righfully so.  When i say marginal, I want it to stay that way.  The moment the max/min becomes apparent enough that guardians are noticeably superior as tanks over other fighers, you will see a huge swing in balance.  If you refer to another class, such as the scouts.  They are all balanced on DPS, and rightfully so.   A brigand should not be the supreme DPS class, nor should the wizard for the mages.  BALANCE.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You scream nerf this, nerf that, yet the simplest solution is to increase guardian aggro on certain abilities.  There is no need to send berserkers to chain.  Do that and they become as useful as a brigand swinging a balloon at mobs.  I know you are frustrated, and I understand, but remain calm and don't pump crap into SOE's inbox that is only going to demise the system of class balance.</DIV> <DIV><BR>How do you think a significant bump to aggro per ability would affect the class?  It seems that that is the real issue here and not gear or dps.</DIV>

[Kinni]

<DIV>Obviously a post from a zerker.</DIV>

[Kasu]

<DIV>I picked the guardian because I wanted to be the supreme tank in this game...This i am not and this is why im frustrated. Berserker who goes defensive is a hell of a lot better tank than Guardian who goes all out defensive on gear. ...berserker who goes all out offense in gear is a lot better than a guardian who goes out all offense...tell me the justice in this? Why not get rid of the guardian line all together and make beserkers the supreme tanks in this game...Nerf u zerkers to hell for all i care =P</DIV>

[EQJun]

<DIV>Kasume, <BR><BR>I am not arguing with you or anyone that the classes are balanced as of now.  But I think the outcry is a little extreme though to call in the nerf bats.  A simple yet effective fix is all that is needed. <STRONG>Refer to my other thread "Guardians V Berskers solved PLEASE READ"</STRONG> .  I illustrate that the aggro is the sole problem.  Guardians are better defensive tanks and berserkers are better at offense, yet lack the ability to aggro, thus demeaning their role.  My solutions address that key issue with a very reasonable, easy and effective fix.  Please read it.  </DIV>

[Styk]

Kasume you bought the wrong game them because SoE has said that their is NO SUPREME TANK, EVERYTHING IS SITUATIONAL... Guardians are NEVER suppose to be a supreme tank.... Yes im a berserker, if there is a guardian in a group i am in who is comparable in lvls and gear ( 2 down in lvls or higher then me ) i will ask him to tank.... I KNOW HOW TO MANAGE MY AGRO , Some of you have had bad experiances with other zerkers in the game so far, well my answer is A.) the guardian is not taunting enough or B.) the zerker is an idiot for not managing his agro and should be booted from group....I have had many a group where the Guardian is MTing and goes down ( either due to lag and heal didnt land in time or massive amount of adds ) I kicked in Bloodlust, AETaunted and grabbed agro and saved the wipe, I love the fact that when the #$# hits the fan i can pick up the tanking job... I understand your fustration about agro and Guardian agro generation NEEDS to be beefed up .... But asking for unrealistic additions and nerfs will just start more drama... be realistic.... Oh and if you cant get over the fact that Guardians ARE NOT THE SUPREME TANK in this game the pls play another class or another game because thats just going to start more grief...

[lailoken]

<DIV><FONT color=#339900 size=4>I agree with styker I like knowing that if I do all I can to "guard" a group then somehow I die I like to know that the group is not lost. I am part of the group that does believe guardians are slightly better tanks but not the only tanks. By that i mean damage mitigation wise.</FONT></DIV>

[Swordsm]

<DIV>most of us are from eq1 and has adapt to that enviornment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would assume eq2 would be better than eq1, guess i'm wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>eq2's graphic is [Removed for Content] that's all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>eq1 is the best if you ask me, even the best fades away that's why i'm in eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lot of us bought the wrong game yay.....lol  hmmm or maybe i chose the wrong</DIV> <DIV>classs another yay....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another think i need to address, soe mention eq2 meant NO camping name mob.</DIV> <DIV>omg, come on now.  quest mob do not spawn right away, how the hell we're suppose</DIV> <DIV>to finish quest?  all these noob thinks eq2 FFA for everything.  I stay there for hrs and finally</DIV> <DIV>quest mob spawns what happen? all those foo think everything is FFA take the mob from me </DIV> <DIV>cause they agro first.   soe make part of the policy but it's upto player to do the rest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just because soe this, you're going to follow 100%?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EQJun]

<DIV>I like how the disgruntled guardians gave me 2 stars for this thread.  The cold bitter honest truth of this game has hit hard, and they realize that there are legitimately 6 classes that can MT any group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah a small tweak is needed for aggro, but you are not going to be the EQ1 or WOW warrior you were expecting.  You will get no abilities that puts you leaps and bounds ahead of the other fighters.  You will be able to "GUARD" your group as you are intended, but you will not be the end all answer to raids or group tanking. </DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

You are missing the point. If I group with a monk, sk, paladin, etc. I have no problems and everything is fine. I can hold aggro if I am MT, they can hold it if they are. If I group with a berserker it is a battle back and forth that results in aggro craziness and inevitably deaths. I don't give a crap if there are 6 tankers, I can group with all of them EXCEPT zerkers. Even a lower level zerker presents huge aggro problems and it is lame that its like this.

[Ainm]

I never have this problem with Berserkers I group with, but then they don't use Bloodlust when grouped with me. Is that really the problem?

[GenesisForgot]

Yea it is. They aren't using thier PRIMARY ability. That's like an assassin not using backstab because he'll out aggro the tank. That's rediculous. Even a zerker at 23 can gain aggro off a guardain 5 levels above them. Its STUPID.I grouped with a zerker 2 levels above me today and he is a far better tank than any guardian I've met. I put my 2 daggers on and contributed the best DPS I could manage (not very much lol) and that was about it for my role in the group. Oh well, atleast we didn't have to even worry about anybody else getting aggrod with bloodlust's crazy hate..

[Xter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQJunky wrote:<BR> <DIV>First, I don't want to come across rude to some of you, but you need to grasp the cold hard reality of what this game is about.<BR><BR>...........................<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sounds like a Zerker thats tired of getting picked 2nd!  LOL!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nice list of options though.  Too bad thats all they are. </DIV>

[EQJun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xterra wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQJunky wrote:<BR> <DIV>First, I don't want to come across rude to some of you, but you need to grasp the cold hard reality of what this game is about.<BR><BR>...........................<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sounds like a Zerker thats tired of getting picked 2nd!  LOL!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nice list of options though.  Too bad thats all they are. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't quite uderstand what you mean by '...tired of being picked second', but O.K.  That list wasn't options.  Those were arguing points to dispell some misconceptions about the guardian class.  I don't know how you consider them options.  As far as the opening of the thread, I realized the flamability of this issue and wanted to not sound condescending in my critique of the class.  Now that might have been too much for you to comprehend, but I felt I was rather deliberate and understandable.  And "all they are" are the truths about this game and the classes.  I know that's a very difficult thing for you to absorb right now, but in time you'll understand that this is a new game with a new angle and philosophy of balance.  Happy hunting.

[Demolitio]

<DIV>I don't want to seem rude.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We are aware we're not the only tank class.  Every tank class is different, so no tank class is 'superior'  just 'situational'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. I personally don't care about a Guardian-only line of armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Many call for zerker nerfs.  I personally call for better aggro tools for the Guardian, or a decrease in hate from zerker specials.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Again you covered this in #1.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Again you covered this in #1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. We know this isn't EQ 1.  You know this right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You say that the guardian should be the marginal winner in total damage mitigation.  I can agree that we're good at taking damage.  Our protection lines should work better, and help build aggro in my opinion.  Our hate increasing skills should be better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians aren't a DPS class, so I say oh well.  We're a damage absorbing class.  Therefore our mitigation should be better than that of a zerker, since their damage is a bit better than ours.  Our aggro keeping skills should be better than that of a zerker.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not screaming for nerfs.  Heck I'm not even asking for revamps, because OH YEAH I'm not in the higher levels yet (only lvl 22).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care about Guardian only gear</DIV> <DIV>I don't care about Zerkers needing any nerfs.</DIV> <DIV>I only care about my ability to do my job.  Taking damage, holding aggro, and being the barrier between my group and death.</DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

Well I think this will be my first post on these forums but here it goes..I am currently a lvl 22 Guardian. I admit I am still learning my class as well as the dynamics of grouping with other classes. Maybe its just my noobness but here are some thoughts/issues/concerns:1) I am experiencing what I consider to be problems with aggro. I group primarily with a Fury as my healer and most of time everything goes well...thats assuming I dont lose aggro from beginning to end. If for some reason I do lose aggro..its basically pointless to try to regain it because i just end up wasting my power pool spmaing taunt after taunt after taunt ....2) I understand that EQ2 is NOT EQ1 and that there is "suppose" to be 6 or so viable tanks. Granted I am only familiar with the Warrior->Guardian/Zerker but from what I can see there is no "reason" not too have chosen Zerker. Same armor (which if im not mistaken is not what was originally intended by SOE), same AC/HP, Better aggro, better DPS. I guess im missing something becuase although we are all suppose to be a different "flavor" of the same thing...Seems like Gaurdian tastes the worse?So from a simple point of view it seems like Guardian = (Defense - DPS&Aggro) while Zerker = (Defense + DPS&Aggro). How is that balanced? I can accept that Guardian should sacrifice something(DPS) in exchange for better defense but what exactly do Zerkers sacrifice for better DPS?I might have my interpretation of defense wrong. Maybe someone can answer this. Assuming equal level and against the same mob Will a Guardian with 1000AC mitigate the same as a Zerker with 1000AC?3) Which brings me to all these "guard" type abilities. Again I am still figuring things out but they dont seem to do a **mods 4 teh win!!1!** thing?

[RafaelSmith]

Well I think this will be my first post on these forums but here it goes..I am currently a lvl 22 Guardian. I admit I am still learning my class as well as the dynamics of grouping with other classes. Maybe its just my noobness but here are some thoughts/issues/concerns:1) I am experiencing what I consider to be problems with aggro. I group primarily with a Fury as my healer and most of time everything goes well...thats assuming I dont lose aggro from beginning to end. If for some reason I do lose aggro..its basically pointless to try to regain it because i just end up wasting my power pool spmaing taunt after taunt after taunt ....2) I understand that EQ2 is NOT EQ1 and that there is "suppose" to be 6 or so viable tanks. Granted I am only familiar with the Warrior->Guardian/Zerker but from what I can see there is no "reason" not too have chosen Zerker. Same armor (which if im not mistaken is not what was originally intended by SOE), same AC/HP, Better aggro, better DPS. I guess im missing something becuase although we are all suppose to be a different "flavor" of the same thing...Seems like Gaurdian tastes the worse?So from a simple point of view it seems like Guardian = (Defense - DPS&Aggro) while Zerker = (Defense + DPS&Aggro). How is that balanced? I can accept that Guardian should sacrifice something(DPS) in exchange for better defense but what exactly do Zerkers sacrifice for better DPS?I might have my interpretation of defense wrong. Maybe someone can answer this. Assuming equal level and against the same mob Will a Guardian with 1000AC mitigate the same as a Zerker with 1000AC?3) Which brings me to all these "guard" type abilities. Again I am still figuring things out but they dont seem to do anything?

[Woodpi]

<DIV>I have a feeling no one here has played a Guardian or Zerker above level 40. If you had we wouldnt be having this talk. At higher levels you wont have a problem keeping the agro off a zerker. Check out the skills a Guardian gets. As we level out of the 30's the Zerker will become mainly a damage dealer. Mind you he can still tank just not take as many hits. The guardian has at least 10 or more agro attacks as well as many armour increasing skills. This gives him a much higher AC then the Zerker with the same armour. The Zerker gets mainly offensive increasing skills. So untill everyone is in the 40s lets not worry about it. I think you will be plesently suprised. The Zerker and Guardian will take on thier true forms. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont forget also that one of the main things a Guardian is used for is to protect group members. They have a ton of nice skills that allow them to take the hits parry or pull instant agro from a weaker group member. The Zerker has a few also but not nearly as many. Besides his job is to hit fast and solid. They are emergency only skills for the Zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               The Woodpile</DIV>

[Want]

<DIV><FONT size=3>Zerkers are not a defensive class and lack all but the most basic warrior skills. They go defense they sacrifice all their offensive skills with massive penalties. In offense they take a hit to defensive skills but thats how they were meant to work. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>This entire issue can be summed up with the fact that people came expecting EQL warrior traits to continue in EQ2. Hell they even admit it in this thread that they wanted to be THE ONLY TANK and are upset that other tanks do the job as well ( just differently).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Again Guardians tank via GUARD skills.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Zerkers tank via Offensive skills.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>BOTH are the tank classes in this game</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>A Zerker WILL burn more healer power to do the same job as a Guardian.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Its an untruth to say a zerker is able to tank defensively as well as a guardian.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Does the class have issues needing addressed? Likely but so does zerker and everyother class.</FONT></DIV>

[EQJun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR><BR>So from a simple point of view it seems like Guardian = (Defense - DPS&Aggro) while Zerker = (Defense + DPS&Aggro). How is that balanced? I can accept that Guardian should sacrifice something(DPS) in exchange for better defense but what exactly do Zerkers sacrifice for better DPS?<BR><BR>I might have my interpretation of defense wrong. Maybe someone can answer this. Assuming equal level and against the same mob Will a Guardian with 1000AC mitigate the same as a Zerker with 1000AC?<BR><BR><BR>3) Which brings me to all these "guard" type abilities. Again I am still figuring things out but they dont seem to do a **mods 4 teh win!!1!** thing?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>For a berserker to do more dps than a guardian a berserker must go berserk.  Going <STRONG>berserk</STRONG> <STRONG>increase offense and haste</STRONG>.  It also <STRONG>decreases defense</STRONG>.  A b<STRONG>erserker who is berserk will not mitigate as much damage as a guardian</STRONG>.  There lies the <STRONG>balance of mitigation</STRONG>.  Sacrifice of defense for offense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The <STRONG>imbalance lies in aggro</STRONG>.  Due to the fact that haste/dmg increse = more aggro for a berserker a guardian needs a substantial boost to aggro per ability and or a new ability all together that rivals the aggro generated by berserk.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

Thanks that all makes sense. Like i said the only real issue ive actualy experienced in game is aggro problems. Being able to mitigate more means nothing if im not the one being hit =PSeems to me that the Aggro generated by Zerker's using thier "whatever" which is suppose to lower their defense is messed up. I would think in a group with equal level Gaurdian and Zerker the Zerker would want to go all out DPS wise and let the Guardian take the hits(otherwise why even bring the Gaurdian along).I need to read up/play around with these "GUARD" abilities cause i have yet to see them do much of anything.

[Woodpi]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>I figured I should repond to these.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>************************************************** ***********</FONT></DIV> <DIV>First, I don't want to come across rude to some of you, but you need to grasp the cold hard reality of what this game is about.<BR><BR>#1.  You are not the only tank class, nor are you supposesd to be supperior over the other fighter sub classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff66>What are you talking about? No one is supperior we all have differant jobs to do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2.  The notion that guardians should have a seperate stronger suit of armor all to themselves is ludicrous.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff66>I Agree we dont need one our AC increasing skills give us this without needing beter armour.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>#3.  Balance issues with berserkers should not be solved by nerfing berserkers.  The issue is solely in aggro.  Aggro per skill should be bumped up significantly for guardians, that would solve the problem.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>I agree too. As far as ive seen they dont need nurphing. There is just a level where they excel at damage. Above what the Guardian is given for taunt skills. This is mainly in the level 20 to 30 area. This is a Guardian problem not a Zerker one.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#4.  You are not the sumpreme tank that the warrior was in EQ1.  You are the same as berserkers, paladins, shadow knights, monks and bruisers.  Just a different flavor. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>Im not sure where you are going here. If your saying that at level 50 you can tank as well as a Guardian then you are wrong. you can still tank but you will get hit harder and more often. Unless of course you use a shield and have much beter armour then said Guardian.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#5.  Read number 4. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>Is there a eco in here?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#6.  This is not Everquest 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>Maybe not but I just saved money on my auto insurance! Bet you cant guese who I purchased from!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>************************************************** ***************</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>All in all lets just wait till high end game and everyone will feel great about the Guardian. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff66>                  The Woodpile</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>**********************************************</DIV> <DIV>For a berserker to do more dps than a guardian a berserker must go berserk. </DIV> <DIV>**********************************************</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkers should always have more damage output then a Guardian. Guardians should be using a shield. This reduces the damage output. I havent seen alot of Zerkers using one. If they do they dont know how to play the Zerker class. A disadvantage to the guardian is that they do not put out as much damage as a Zerker and it should be this way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               The Woodpile</DIV>

[Reol]

<DIV>The Guardian Class even in its form right now, is better at damage mitigation, simply due to one fact ( Im a berserker btw). For the Berserker to be all that dps and a more, needs to use either a 2handed weapon or dual wield weapons. We therefore already by default have a lower AC than the guardians, we also too lose ac when we go berserk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The berserker by all rights, should be able to take aggro in an instant..we are the offensive tanks, In a group I do normally suggest unless the guardian is of a higher lvl than me...that I main tank...and the guardian guard my butt with his kick **mods 4 teh win!!1!** defensive skills etc, and we have no aggro problems....But that being said.....hey I don't want to be the main tank all the time. So He starts to main tank and i assist him. Now its up to me to control my aggro, i don't spam my aggro skills instead of using blood rage i just use my dual wields, and keep my blood rage ready incase of emergencies. ( An emergencie is defined as Warrior dying, cleric grabs aggro due to massive add problem, I hit the bloodlust and WHAM im new most hated guy on the block. a few taunts and all the mobs want to take my head and use it for a play toy.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think people should be careful what there asking for. The whole premise of EQ2 is to give massive flexibility of classes that are ALL functional in there own rights. At high level where it counts....any tank..any healer..any caster....any scout can get a group....instead of for example in  everquest 1 where a NON am3 eq ranger sits for hours on end hoping a group will let him join, or a druid can't get a group because he doesn't have very much in the way of stuff to offer a group...heals that are sub par.....wears paper for armor....and can't really help out much....   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am hoping those days are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR gone. So I hope everyone thinks carefully about what they are asking SOE for nerfs have rarely in this history of any MMORG been a benefit to anyone except those who are selfishly looking to say they are superior to all. Go play a single player game if you want to be better than everyone else. </DIV>

[Valnas]

<DIV>So, I thought I would check to see how the conversation is going..... same old.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll throw in my point of view as a lvl 32 Bezerker, it might be worth something. I understand the problem of agro....it was a huge problem for me early on when I was often grouped with a Guardian, and with whom I still group. If you look at the skill line, even if we have the same AC he has extra mitigation ability. Fine. In reality that means either the healer burns a bit more power on me if Im tanking but the the mob dies a bit faster. If he is the main tank, which he often is....I agree that I would like to turn on the after burners, but as you all are aware, the rage proc acts as a "buff agro". Easy fix. Make it non agro, or less agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians tank great. I feel they make better tanks. Better you ask? When it comes down to the challenging encounters, that mitigation is the key. Hell, no I dont want to tank the Groupx2 +++ mob. AC and a little parry buff is not going to keep me alive long enough for the healers to spam heal me. Put the Guardian up front for major encounters! That should make you happy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, Zerkers, dont lose heart. You say it is situational...yes it is. Balance would be ideal but its not going to happen. Put a monk face to face with that same Gx2 +++ mob and he is done for.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardains have thier moment to shine even as the game is now. As a Bezerker I did not expect to be the best at both Tanking and Dmg...I expected to be pretty good at both (read: versitile). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For most of the content you all have seen, you dont see that much of a difference, but the the seperation becomes apparent later on.  Hold tight.....with a little twiking you will see both classes fulfill their vision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(ps. I do feel bad for mowing through Zek like a Mack truck with 2 clerics, a swashy and guardian at my side....mmm but I dont feel THAT bad)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fear the Rage!!!!!</DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>Raolas I dont think the Zerker will have any problems finding a group. They are one of the primary damage dealers. Something a Guardian simply isnt made for when we get to the higher levels. Sure they do ok damage but nothing like a Zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>             The Woodpile</DIV>

[Reol]

<DIV>Woodpile, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never said I was worried about getting groups later on and the topic was not about how much dmg a guardian does, yeah hes a lower damage dealer. However people have to realize it will take abit of time before you start the see how the zerker and guard differ in there tanking methods...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im fully expecting to be able to always outdamage a guardian and gather aggro like a madman, I don't expect to always have the full range of skills to support my group through buffs, like protection lines that buff whole grp ac buffs for the group. Stuff like that, I can understand alot of people maybe in the position of saying hey the zerker can do what we can....sure at lvl's 20-25 I can but give it some time Im fairly positive that we change as we go higher up the tree.</DIV>

[dinner da]

<DIV>Some very good points made all around. I'm a lvl 22 guardian and like I have said in other posts zerkers shouldn't be nerfed, that's ridiculous. Seperate armor? Why? Also implementing such a change as removing vanguard armor abilities from certain classes would be nigh impossible now that it's been granted.  How would such individuals that already have the armor be compensated? Nerfing obviously isn't the answer; it would drive zerkers crazy. I think the main problem is zerkers get some good skills at the outset (such as bloodrage) that can be used in a solo/group situation, while guardians get skills that only work in a group situation that take awhile to cast and don't generate any aggro (such as allay and sentinel).  I'm hearing that things will get better for guardians in the long run; however, I think better planning should have been taken when designing the class, and guardians should have been given a skill earlier on that enhances defense and generates aggro. This would have put them on equal footing with zerkers at the outset, and all this outcry would have most likely been avoided. Also giving us guardians from qeynos a two handed weapon for our profession quest was a bit daft. Where's my aegis of the guardian??? Just kidding guys, hopefully this will all be worked out for everyones' benefit without any nerfs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by dinner dave on <span class=date_text>12-07-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[Xek]

someone makes a logical arguement and the immediate next post is a bash on who the person is. i love the bboards.Whine away, guardains!

[Demolitio]

<DIV>Regardless of bashing, you know it's going to happen.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a person posts a good post, they still get bashed and/or one-starred for their post no matter how much or little effort or thinking is involved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of your posts are commenting about the whining going on.  Get over it already, and quit feeding the trolls.</DIV>

[HalberdBl]

<DIV>The problem with the whole sacrifice AC for damage thing=balance is that people don't look for fighters for DPS, they look for them to tank (normally).  If you are on a raid and you have the choice of taking a Guardian who mitigates 5% more damage than a Serker who does 5% more damage, the choice is obviously the guardian because the serker will be doing 5% more damage tanking or not, and the only way to get the 5% mitigation would be with a guardian tank, and SOE's intention was that all classes would tank equally well, so its unbalanced.</DIV>

[Azry]

<DIV>"SOE's intention was that all classes would tank equally well"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not sure anyone knows what SOE's intention is anymore. My take on it is that in groups zerkers were designed to be repaceable with guardians, but for raids I dont think you will be seeing zerkers tank boss mobs. Tanking boss-type mobs is what I was envisioning the guardian doing and think many people are with me on that. We will have to see how the level 50 guardian taunt plays out in these scenarios. I think when the cards finally fall in a few months, guardians will be the ones tanking the big guys, which imo is more than fair.</DIV>

[Deritos]

EQJunky first off, shut up.Second off, beserkers class is pathetically inbalanced right now and their level of aggro is obsecne, not to mention they flat out tank and produce greater dps than the guardian, what benefit does the guardian have? none. we are obsolete right now.Balance needs to be fixed for this classs.

[Jher]

Deritos, First off, shut up.Second off, I think a large number of us Berserkers actually agree that the aggro generation of Bloodlust is way out of proportion. If I have bloodlust activated (before the battle), and then autoattack my target, I'll pull aggro back from a Guardian 1 level higher than me who has taunted, in only a few hits. This is crazy, and even -we- want it changed. Bloodlust would be a FAR more useful skill if we could use it regularly whilst off-tanking, without having the Guardian spend all their power on taunts just for our benefit.In short, I'd like to see the aggro of bloodlust cut down a little (not completely, it is still useful as a group saver, if the guardian bites it!), and the hate levels of Guardian taunts beefed up. If the Guardian in a group taunts, he should get aggro, end of story - that does not mean that us Berserkers need to be any -less- efficient than we are now however. No nerfing required.

[EQJun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deritos wrote:<BR>EQJunky first off, shut up.<BR><BR>Second off, beserkers class is pathetically inbalanced right now and their level of aggro is obsecne, not to mention they flat out tank and produce greater dps than the guardian, what benefit does the guardian have? none. we are obsolete right now.<BR><BR>Balance needs to be fixed for this classs.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have said all along that aggro is indeed imbalanced due to a good part of aggro being associated with DPS.  I called for aggro bumps to guardians.  I fully support lowering aggro on bloodlust significantly.  I can't use it in a group when I'm not MT, thus diminishing our value (it's a two way street, if you happened to have the vision to see that detremental affect on zerkers).  </P> <P>I will have to strongly disagree with you that the berserker class is "pathetically inbalanced right now".  As you probably have missed what i wrote in the past I'll say it again.  When a berserker goes berserk, they increase their DPS, but they lose defense.  They in turn do not tank as well.   Can you understand that very simple concept?  THEY DO NOT TANK AS WELL WHEN IN BERSERK MODE.  Guardians Obsolete?  I beg to differ.  Aggro problems?  Indeed.  On both sides of the fence.  Bloodlust needs a tuning as well as guardian abilities to compensate for a DPS desparity, but I have said this all along.  I guess I'll shut up now as you suggested.  <BR></P>

[Sevari]

<DIV>Future Guardian here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I read guardians get more HP / STA per level than Zerkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This plus better defence buffs and taunts should make the Guardian a slightly better meat shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are a lot of posts that say wait until higher level before you make a judgment on the class. I think this is good advice.</DIV>

[Nir]

<DIV>Level 21.6 Guardian here.  I have no problems holding aggro or retrieving it.  It also comes down to knowing the people you are playing with, and knowing the skills of the class.  I think Guardian is a great class, and I am glad I picked it over 'Zerker.  Does that mean I am not going to play a 'Zerker one of these days?  Nope.  I do think as we hit the higher levels, the difference between fighter archetypes will become more apparent.</DIV>

[BetaMaster]

<DIV>ok... Most of this i agree with however I Think the guardians should have ultimate armor set.  Guardians are supposed to rely SOLELY on their armor to defend against attacks, other sub-classes have dodging etc to tank well while other fighters (like zerkers) have chosen the road of increased dmg and should take a hit on defense... instead of them having to take a hit Guardians should just have an ultimate armor set...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkers = use best weapons</DIV> <DIV>Guardians = use best armor</DIV> <DIV>Just my opinion</DIV>

[Reol]

<DIV>Guardians should NOT have the ultimate armor set. Why does everyone associate Plate armor as there only means by which to tank all these classes do have skills too.......Does a Guardian have problems absorbing damage....well the guardians I play with don't seem to. Should the Guardians be able to hold aggro, of course they should. But to sit and say guardians deserve special gear because there the tank...is full of bullcrap a zerker who dons a shield and 1hander should be able to tank as efficiently as a guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main focus should be that the guardian be able with a special skill pull aggro as they need to, like a guardian only single taunt and AOE taunt that nails them to the top of teh aggro chain anytime they use. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians should go and study there own class. Go find a skill list and READ the **mods 4 teh win!!1!** thing and show me you don't get skills that are befitting a tank, you get defensive buffs to use for tanking to drive up your defense, you get skills that shield single or whole grps from damage, you get group defensive buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The berserker gets NONE of that. As far as DPS goes a berserker will always be the better, that is our job, I didn't want to be the guardian...i wanted to be the attacker working with the guardian, I take the mob down while he buys the group time. That is very helpful when you pull 3 orange mobs, kill them...healer is down to 1/2 mana or less and POP a second group of mobs jumps us..the guardian can go into defensive mode, and help protect everyone while me and the dps classes take down the mobs. IF massive aggro occurs or the tank needs help..I am capable to help tank off mobs because i also am a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or we will at times..give the guardian a break from main tanking...and I will MT while he supports me with buffs and additional dps and the cleric will heal me. His role isn't deminished because OMG I can tank!!! hes still performing the same functions as a SA by helping protect my butt with his abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not a hard concpet and people should  stop worrying about being the ONLY tank, your not so get over it. Are you useless?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only if you think so.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Reolas on <span class=date_text>12-08-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

You aren't seeing the point dude. I don't want to be the only tank. I think it is awesome a pick up group with a monk, bruiser, sk, paladin, or berserker can do fine with whatever MT they have at hand. Berserkers are GOOD and that is GOOD. I don't want anything to happen to change that. I don't even see a reason why Bloodlust aggro should be horribly nerfed - it is a good taunting skill and helps zerkers tank.I WOULD like to see Guardian's be a LITTLE better. I don't want exclusive armor or shield privileges, it is fine now. I would like to see our taunts compare to a zerker. I would like to be able to group with zerkers. That would be cool. As it is now, if a zerker is in my group and I am the MT due to better gear, level, etc, he can't use Bloodlust and that's just that. That's like an assassin not using his best ability because he will screw up group dynamics - when the game is based on grouping!I'd just like to see Guardian's have some kind of defensive style taunt that could be the opposite but similar to Bloodlust. Maybe an upgrade to Hold the Line that we get in our mid 20's. That would be really awesome. There are many ways this could be done without turning Guardian's into "the best tank" but making them able to group with berserkers. Raising buff duration to 5 minutes across the board would be helpful to all classes, especially Guardians. Also, I'd like to see more depth to the gaurd line of skills. The parry/block ones I'm not sure even work. Can we have some kind of message? Can we have a message to let us know when our target has moved out of range or is in range? Can they have a bit of a faster cast time? etc.I think the guard spells are a great idea and I'm more than willing to have that be one of the central themes to the guardian class, just make it worthwhile.

[Ainm]

If you make Guardians the best defensive tanks in the game, you make them the only tank for the endgame. This is not good in any way, shape or form.

[Want]

<DIV>GenesisForgoten</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think we all agree that Bloodlust aggro is just plain messed up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I also think taunt effectiveness for all classes is too low as I should not pull aggro off a Sk/guardian that is 2 or 3 levels higher then I am, when the ONLY skill i have up is focus rage ( can trigger bezk ), yet it happens all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> A solution is to fix aggro in taunts or if that will trivialize encounters then give berserkers an evade skill like assasins, as hunker down is not effective to ditching aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is now , to group with a zerker they have to be the MT and you as a tank class have to employ all ur guarding skills to them. This seems to upset Guardians who wish to be the MT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zekers dont really care as they just like ot kill stuff anyway possible and a way to ditch aggro would be welcome. A nerf to second class tank status isnt. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Percieved Problem</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers generate too much aggro in an offtank role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solution</DIV> <DIV>Fix bloodlust aggro, boost all taunt effectiveness or give zerkers an effective evade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Wanten on <span class=date_text>12-08-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Dbil]

<DIV>Does anyone else think it's funny that any Zerker would come to the Guardian boards and tell them to just [Removed for Content] and play the hand they were delt?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wonder what would happen if the tables were turned and Guardians were just slightly out DPSign the zerkers in groups?</DIV>

[Jher]

<blockquote><hr>Dbil wrote:<DIV>Does anyone else think it's funny that any Zerker would come to the Guardian boards and tell them to just [Removed for Content] and play the hand they were delt?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I wonder what would happen if the tables were turned and Guardians were just slightly out DPSign the zerkers in groups?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Hrm, well... You might have had a point there, if Berserkers were out damage-mitigating Guardians. Which they are not. In fact, we don't even equal Guardians in that department when skills are considered.I'm certainly not going to tell you to [Removed for Content] - I personally think there are some tweaks that should be made (aggro of Bloodlust reduced slightly, Guardian taunts improved), however a lot of the aggro problems can be overcome by playstyle (in fact many good Guardians are consistently doing this NOW).

[Hastur Bloodwa]

I am of the humble belief that the originator of this thread has no idea what he/she is talking about. I am not trolling, but the person has obviously not played the guardian class, so I fail to see what gives them the right to tell us how our class should be and how we should react to the problems. As I have stated in another thread elsewhere, a Guardian is mean to be the main tank, protector of his group mates, for that is what, in essence, 'guardian' means. A berserker by definition is meant to be a pure damage dealer and bugger defense, sticking to traditional definitions of the term. Yes things will be altered to fit into the environment of a game, but why call a guardian a guardian and give us protective and defensive abilities, if a berserker, with great dps, can outdo us on our traditional role? Dont tell me we are whining, for we have actually played the class and know what we are talking about. You may or may not have meant well by your post, but in actuality you have caused offense by professing to know the ins and outs of a class you so apparantly have not played.As someone else has already stated, I too actually do not mind other tank classes joining a group I am in, but if I am in a group where a zerk wants to be the only tank, I feel that it is a slight to the abilities of my class, as people in that group have obviously no faith in guardians as a tank class, apart from the occasional buffing. Luckily, most of the people I group with love my tanking and pulling ability, and I am often actually congratulated BUT I do feel that things are wrong, over all, with our class and need addressing and updating.<p>Message Edited by Hastur Bloodwake on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[EQJun]

<DIV>Hastur,</DIV> <DIV><BR>I am the origonater of this thread and I have never played a guardian.  Regardless of what classes I have or have not played does not affect my ability to understand SOE's vision for this game.  You have obviously missed that vision, considering you are still thinking inside that tiny little box where "<EM>guardians are the MT and best taunter and the ultimate meat shield</EM>".  This game is about balance; balance where any of the 6 fighter classes tank equally as well.  In my initial post I tried to dispell the misconceptions of some guardians coming into this game, and prove that it is a NEW concept with a NEW way of looking at tanking.  You have yet to see that, though more and more are coming to grips with it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A berserker by definition is not pure damage.  We are not a DPS class, we are a tank class.  If we were meant to be a DPS/utility class we would be a scout.  The same goes for monks, they are not a DPS class, they are tanks as tough as it may be to realize that.  Maybe berserkers in another game or another story are light armor wearing all offensive characters, but in this game and this story they are offensive warriors, wearing the heavy armor, able to tank for a group, and deliver slightly more dps in exchange for defense when time calls for it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never played a brigand or an assassin as well, but I can make the assumption that neither one is supposed to be the outright best DPS.  Do i need to play both classes to 40 to make the comparison that both should be able to put out DPS on the same level?  I woud hope so.  We are talking about broad concepts and general balance, not the tedius figures and small levels of varience.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know the ins and outs, but I can read a game's vision and understand how it's meant to be applied.  I can forget about past games and look at this game without bias or expectations of class power/diversity and take it for what it is.  You again, fail at that, and will eventually see this game for something completely different than EQ1.  Your traditional role as a guardian is to guard.  Your traditional role as a guardian is not to be the EQ1 super taunting meat shield you're expecting.  Learn your class and adapt to it.  This is a completely differnet game than EQ1 with just the sequel name on top.  </DIV>

[Jher]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hastur Bloodwake wrote:<BR>I am of the humble belief that the originator of this thread has no idea what he/she is talking about. I am not trolling, but the person has obviously not played the guardian class, so I fail to see what gives them the right to tell us how our class should be and how we should react to the problems. As I have stated in another thread elsewhere, a Guardian is mean to be the main tank, protector of his group mates, for that is what, in essence, 'guardian' means. A berserker by definition is meant to be a pure damage dealer and bugger defense, sticking to traditional definitions of the term. Yes things will be altered to fit into the environment of a game, but why call a guardian a guardian and give us protective and defensive abilities, if a berserker, with great dps, can outdo us on our traditional role? Dont tell me we are whining, for we have actually played the class and know what we are talking about. You may or may not have meant well by your post, but in actuality you have caused offense by professing to know the ins and outs of a class you so apparantly have not played.<BR><BR>As someone else has already stated, I too actually do not mind other tank classes joining a group I am in, but if I am in a group where a zerk wants to be the only tank, I feel that it is a slight to the abilities of my class, as people in that group have obviously no faith in guardians as a tank class, apart from the occasional buffing. Luckily, most of the people I group with love my tanking and pulling ability, and I am often actually congratulated BUT I do feel that things are wrong, over all, with our class and need addressing and updating. <P>Message Edited by Hastur Bloodwake on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>With all due respect, who made you the man to decide exactly what Guardians and Berserkers are?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could quite as easily say (though it is actually not my opinion), that Guardians should not tank at all, merely 'Guard' the real tanks. Or I could say (and this IS my opinion) that Berserkers throughout lore, actually had the ability to 'magically' deflect blows, and were virtually immune to sword strikes. Of course, what does my opinion count for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only problem here is taunting/aggro. Without berserk, what fantastic DPS does a Berserker have over a Guardian? Is there some magic decision made at lvl 20 where a Berserker suddenly becomes a DPS machine, and a Guardian a damage mitigator? No. The truth is that both classes are quite similar. I go berserk, and lose some defense to gain extra offense, with some offensive group buffs thrown in. The Guardian in turn keeps that defense, and gains a whole pile of extra defensive abilities/ group buffs. Those are the -only- differences, and as both are offshoots of the same warrior profession, I can only see this as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nobody is a 'loser' in a team with both Guardian and Berserker. Because the buffs for both professions tend to be 'group-wide', the Guardian (+group) gets the extra offense from the Zerker buffs, and the Zerker (+group) gets the extra defense from the Guardian buffs. If a team wants either/or, then they can choose whether they want defense or offense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been pretty patient about about some of the blatant trolls screaming for Zerker nerfs etc, but to be honest I am beginning to think that since so many people went Guardian, and so few in comparison went Berserker, the truth is actually quite simple: People feared that Zerkers would be gimped hybrids, unable to tank, and bad DPS in comparison to scouts, so chose the Guardian role. Now it turns out the Berserker actually makes a pretty good tank, shock-horror Guardians have some competition for the MT spot. Cry foul! Nerf those nasty Zerkers lest people not <STRONG>need</STRONG> them, a Guardian, for every group in every situation!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Most</STRONG> good groups out there in the game have already figured out that Guardians are good for some situations, Berserkers are good for others, and hell, take them both if you can. It seems that some Guardians would rather be the only tank, and make Berserker the little hybrid runt that nobody wants or needs.</DIV>

[Reol]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jherad wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hastur Bloodwake wrote:<BR>I am of the humble belief that the originator of this thread has no idea what he/she is talking about. I am not trolling, but the person has obviously not played the guardian class, so I fail to see what gives them the right to tell us how our class should be and how we should react to the problems. As I have stated in another thread elsewhere, a Guardian is mean to be the main tank, protector of his group mates, for that is what, in essence, 'guardian' means. A berserker by definition is meant to be a pure damage dealer and bugger defense, sticking to traditional definitions of the term. Yes things will be altered to fit into the environment of a game, but why call a guardian a guardian and give us protective and defensive abilities, if a berserker, with great dps, can outdo us on our traditional role? Dont tell me we are whining, for we have actually played the class and know what we are talking about. You may or may not have meant well by your post, but in actuality you have caused offense by professing to know the ins and outs of a class you so apparantly have not played.<BR><BR>As someone else has already stated, I too actually do not mind other tank classes joining a group I am in, but if I am in a group where a zerk wants to be the only tank, I feel that it is a slight to the abilities of my class, as people in that group have obviously no faith in guardians as a tank class, apart from the occasional buffing. Luckily, most of the people I group with love my tanking and pulling ability, and I am often actually congratulated BUT I do feel that things are wrong, over all, with our class and need addressing and updating. <P>Message Edited by Hastur Bloodwake on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>With all due respect, who made you the man to decide exactly what Guardians and Berserkers are?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could quite as easily say (though it is actually not my opinion), that Guardians should not tank at all, merely 'Guard' the real tanks. Or I could say (and this IS my opinion) that Berserkers throughout lore, actually had the ability to 'magically' deflect blows, and were virtually immune to sword strikes. Of course, what does my opinion count for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only problem here is taunting/aggro. Without berserk, what fantastic DPS does a Berserker have over a Guardian? Is there some magic decision made at lvl 20 where a Berserker suddenly becomes a DPS machine, and a Guardian a damage mitigator? No. The truth is that both classes are quite similar. I go berserk, and lose some defense to gain extra offense, with some offensive group buffs thrown in. The Guardian in turn keeps that defense, and gains a whole pile of extra defensive abilities/ group buffs. Those are the -only- differences, and as both are offshoots of the same warrior profession, I can only see this as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nobody is a 'loser' in a team with both Guardian and Berserker. Because the buffs for both professions tend to be 'group-wide', the Guardian (+group) gets the extra offense from the Zerker buffs, and the Zerker (+group) gets the extra defense from the Guardian buffs. If a team wants either/or, then they can choose whether they want defense or offense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been pretty patient about about some of the blatant trolls screaming for Zerker nerfs etc, but to be honest I am beginning to think that since so many people went Guardian, and so few in comparison went Berserker, the truth is actually quite simple: People feared that Zerkers would be gimped hybrids, unable to tank, and bad DPS in comparison to scouts, so chose the Guardian role. Now it turns out the Berserker actually makes a pretty good tank, shock-horror Guardians have some competition for the MT spot. Cry foul! Nerf those nasty Zerkers lest people not <STRONG>need</STRONG> them, a Guardian, for every group in every situation!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Most</STRONG> good groups out there in the game have already figured out that Guardians are good for some situations, Berserkers are good for others, and hell, take them both if you can. It seems that some Guardians would rather be the only tank, and make Berserker the little hybrid runt that nobody wants or needs.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Soe is the one that decided what the classes should be, Hastur IMO is trying to relate that information to people whos brains are still stuck in eq1 mode.</P> <P>Anyone who thinks the guardian class sucks, should sit back and look at there own class...in just about every post I have replied to I have seen other guardians tell the whiners that they need to [Removed for Content]...Thats your own class...and those guys are ranging everywhere from the low 20's up to the mid 30's.</P> <P>I also am of the opinion as Jherad said..that most of you didn't really sit back and read the classes as SOE described...hell most people don't even take the time to read the rules of the game, you guys took the easy route and picked guardian figuring that as it was in eq there were "pure" and "hybrid" classes...and to your shock and disbelief and maybe horror your finding the term "hybrid" doesn't really apply to everquest 2.  Now your crying foul because your not the "only" tank class in the game. OH and btw reading the guardian class and skipping the other fighter classes doesn't count as reading the class descriptions.</P> <P>If noone noticed...but SOE has taken a pretty proactive stand to eq2. They fix things as they need fixing...blood rage was massively overpowered..and BAM we got nailed by the nerfing club. A bit hard I think but none the less they fixed the problem....taunting was a problem....what does SOE do....they put forward a fix right away. not a month from now or two months...NOW...... So if SOE doesn't sit and fix your class anymore...you guys might want to wait abit to see how your class is doing...if there is a aggro problem for taunts etc...then they will fix it. </P> <P>Just get it through your heads your not the only tank in the group anymore, and I think if you really sit back and play youll see that having the diversity of tanks, will help in the long run, because if you didn't notice yet...solo pulling mobs is a thing of the past...and having 3-6 mobs attack ya is the norm...so more tanks = exp instead of debt.<BR></P>

[a6eaq]

<DIV>To start with if you would bother to read the discription of a Guardian, it says that we protect our parties at all cost.  At first this points toward "TANK" , but look at our skills, we are there to PROTECT!  This does not mean we are the be all to end all TANKS.  WE intervene for our groups cleric to ensure their safety and things of this nature.  Can we be main tanks? Absolutely!  Do we have to be the main tank? Absolutely not!  This game was designed for balance like has already been mentioned and we do all have a role to play.  But if you only had 1 tank class then where is the BALANCE I ask you.  There isn't any is the answer to a sole tank class.  Besides if you look up the word Gaurdian it meansto protect.  That my fellow Guardians is how this class is meant to be played.  We protect our more vulnerable party members and if we play that right, I have news for you , we may not be tanking at all.  So you want to be the TANK do you?  You want to nurf other classes?  You want unbalanced game play?  Go back to EQ1 or shut up!  </DIV>

[Huflu]

<DIV>Wow, you guardians sure seem [Removed for Content] about berserkers.  BUT wait!  Think about how us monks feel.  They do as much damage as we do AND they CAN tank.  Hrmm... I just heard the sweet sound of balance being flushed down the toilet.  Hell, I just want to be able to tank.  Oh, and I have noticed berserkers absolutely ripping agro away from Guardians, it's quite sad.  One day I had to listen to a berserker give a speech about how a guardian wasnt going to be the main tank on raids because he couldnt agro.  And then the berserker had the guardian cast intervine on him.  I weeped that day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not sure if a monk hold agro better than a guardian, because the healers only laugh at me when I suggest that I tank.</DIV>

[Jher]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Huflung wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow, you guardians sure seem [Removed for Content] about berserkers.  BUT wait!  Think about how us monks feel.  They do as much damage as we do AND they CAN tank.  Hrmm... I just heard the sweet sound of balance being flushed down the toilet.  Hell, I just want to be able to tank.  Oh, and I have noticed berserkers absolutely ripping agro away from Guardians, it's quite sad.  One day I had to listen to a berserker give a speech about how a guardian wasnt going to be the main tank on raids because he couldnt agro.  And then the berserker had the guardian cast intervine on him.  I weeped that day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not sure if a monk hold agro better than a guardian, because the healers only laugh at me when I suggest that I tank.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hmm, lots of tripe here - lets break it down.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers outdamage Monks: No we don't. Pre-bloodrage nerf, sure.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Berserkers outtank Monks: Sure. You just heard the sweet sound of balance hitting you in the face. Suck it up.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Berserkers ripping aggro from Guardians: Sure, in part due to one over-aggroed buff, and in part due to bad team management. I've seen scouts/mages/healers rip aggro from Guardians. Nerf them?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>One day I had to listen to a berserker give a speech: Sure, we have our fair share of muppets playing too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>And then the berserker had the guardian cast intervine(sic) on him: Perfectly valid use of a skill.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

[Zakane]

Tell you right now, 1 I am a monk, 2 I can no tank like a guardian, three yes its different, four well I may do mroe damge but really mons are barely tanks <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Belce]

<DIV>Each of the 6 tanks are meant to be interchangeable for a group going out for exp as a single group.  Each of the 6 will deal differently with the situation compared to any of the others.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The advantage of the guardian is superior defense compared to the other 5, meaning that in any encounter we will be damaged less or the damage we take will be consistent.  This situation is well suited for big challenge mobs especially.   There will be no extrememe spikes in damage due to a bad string of luck and a few hits, we don't need to decrease our defense to maintain agro, we instead improve it, and alot of our defense buffs should last the fight.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have paid attention to when zerker's tank, and even if they are higher lvl than me, they take more damage than I do when zerk.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have found that zerk and guardian can work together in a group and do well when they cooperate, its been posted not quite as often as the 'we are broken' posts, but  they tend to be more unique posts than the latter.  That means we get alot of posts from a few saying we are broken, but many more individual posts from both guardians and zerkers saying no. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you are in a good group, everyone decides how they are going to deal with things and plays to put agro where it is best dealt with, that group does much better than the group that doesn't.  What classes those people play is only important in that they don't [Removed for Content] their group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>

[Huflu]

<DIV>Hey J-rod - You know why you're reading the guardians forum?  Because the nerf bat has once swung in your direction and it shall do so again.  The swing is already in motion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy.</DIV>

[Makkaio]

<DIV>I wanted to repost this in a better discussion thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I've tried to stay the heck out of this conversation because of all the flaming going on from both sides.  But this whole guardian vs. zerker thing has got me really frustrated because if the posters spent half their posting time playing out a guardian/zerker strategy, they wouldn't be in here posting.  And let me tell you guys something, zerkers aren't the only class that can out taunt us.  Let me point to a little skill that bards have to regen their groupmates' power.  Every time it ticks, it generates hate toward the bard and it's almost impossible to taunt off that hate unless the bard's spell is cancelled.  A level 16 bard held an agro train that a level 21 guardian and a level 22 monk could NOT cancel out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solution, bard does not cast the power regen spell until near the end of the encounter, making it easier to finish off the critters, not creating agro on himself and helping our power regen to the next encounter.  The group cancels the effects of the spell before the next encounter.  Problem solved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If some of you would stop crying and go out and put together a real tactic with a zerker, you would find out that if the guardian holds main through about 2/3 of the fight and hands off to the zerker at that point, you can hunt higher conning mobs with a good sense of power management.  I had a lot of fun figuring this strategy out with a zerker the other day.  Maybe this is the way the devs wanted it.  Maybe not.  To me, the real essences of zerker is to go nuts when you really need him to and help finish off an encounter.  Funny how that idea seemed to work the best.  Hm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, the zerker and I have tried the same mob cons without this system and you can't produce the XP results that the tag-team method allows.  This is the way grouping should work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are there tweaks to be made to the taunting and hate systems.  There sure are.  But sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.  If zerkers get hit with the nerf bat, then we'll see...</DIV></DIV>

[ArgosyAxeGrind]

<DIV>It seems that everyone is comparing the scenarios when there is a guardian and a zerker in the same group. My question to you (Guardians and Zerkers) is have you ever attempted to find a group, and then to be told "No thanks, we are looking for a zerker/guardian instead of <your_class>?" Unless you are being turned down in a group for NOT being a guardian/zerker, then everything is just fine. (I, as a guardian, have never had that happen.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, when it comes down to it, I hold my own very well as the sole fighter in a group. I can grag aggro well, I have high hitpoints, high AC, I can intercept/allay/sentinel a player if they grab too much aggro. So what's the problem -- people should spend more time playing and less time complaining <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Prufro]

Ok, everyone seems to be focusing on every fighter subclass tanking exactly the same for "balance."Well, if everything is balanced, then every fighter subclass needs to do exactly the same damage as well. Wait a minute, guardians can't do more damage than berserkers, then berserkers would be worthless!!!! wait, did any berserkers just get a light bulb over their heads?And everyone already wears the same armor (people are probably bitter because the manual suggests differently)So lets just call everyone a fighter, and we can all be fighters, and there can be too many of us that can tank, aggro, and do damage all the same, and woopty do, who cares.

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>=============================</DIV> <DIV>I have paid attention to when zerker's tank, and even if they are higher lvl than me, they take more damage than I do when zerk</DIV> <DIV>=============================</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well technically you can configure not to go berserk (its just skill selection).  Then a higher level/better equipped Bers would tank over a guardian in a group.  Not trolling fer a reaction...just pointing out that just becuase someone is a Guardian doesnt mean they will always tank.  Also a SK can in some situations, namely level and equipment tank over a Guardian as well.  This is called parity something desired in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In most cases if there is a competent Guardian I'd personally rather be SA though.  Its easier to use skill flexibility to help the group as SA (and actually Guardians can be VERY effective in that role if they can get past the ego).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/respectfully</DIV>

[souLou]

<DIV>This is another stupid thread.</DIV> <DIV>People will ALWAYS complain about their classes.</DIV> <DIV>The guardians complain that the zerkers tank just as well, and do loads of damage blah blah and hold aggro better.</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers complain that they dont have as much defense as guardians, but not have enough offense to be a DPS, so groups dont value them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both classes, like all classes, excel under circumstances.  At other times they can both be useless.</DIV> <DIV>Please stop posting threads like this because all it does is cause every1 to argue and nothing ACTUALLY gets resolved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorted <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Armeng]

<blockquote><hr>Xekiu wrote:someone makes a logical arguement and the immediate next post is a bash on who the person is. i love the bboards.Whine away, guardains!<hr></blockquote>Humm good post thereMy issues.....noneI have not played with a zerker.I have no intentions of adding one, if I am looking for a dps class I will get a scout/mage type. If none of those are lfg, I'll seek out something else, if a pally is lfg, and a zerker is lfg, I'd probably choose the pally, simply b/c I played one in beta and a guardian.the original poster, alas poor guy, must be misguided, i occasionally read these forums, and I dont recall some of this stuff he throws in ........ a seperate armor set, i've never saw that, and its just downright dumb if someone did request it.

[Armeng]

second optionIf you are in a group that needs a player in the 20 to 30 range just dont recruit them, if its that much of a problem/shrug

[Hastur Bloodwa]

I have to say Jherad, and with all due respect, that yours is a classic case of 'better to keep your mouth shut and let others think you a fool, rather than open it to speak and remove all doubt.' I never stated that it was my position to decide who Guards/Zerks are. If you took the time to part the red mist of your troll rage you would see that I defined the traditional meanings of the term guardian and berserker. Ok? Thats traditional not my whine fueled self determinations of them. Right hopefully you have got that. I also did not scream for a berserker nerf, neither did I state I wished for any actual or particular 'improvements' to the Guardian class. In fact, I actually stated that I don't mind playing alongside other tank classes. Feeling stupid yet?FYI, in lore ( which you have obviously picked up from gaming and have actually no real clue about) berserkers in battle could, I agree, shrug off wounds while actually in the throes of their berserk rage ( because they were too frenzied and high on adrenalin and certain substances to notice, not because they could 'magically' deflect them,) but afterwards always succumbed to their wounds and, if bad enough, died. And that is NOT just my personal opinion, that is fact. Please don't think to lecture a European player on European myth and lore.Guardians are, on the whole ( apart form a tiny few), not calling for a berserker nerf. We don't want to be the only tank, neither do we wish to be made superior to anyone else. What we do ask ( and you will note that we ask this on our OWN forums, and do not take our grievances across to the forums of another class. Can you say the same?) is that the problems, and there are problems which if you had actually played the bloody class you would be aware of, that we would, at some stage, like to be attended to. In the meantime, these niggles have not impaired my enjoyment of the class one whit, I love being a guardian. I happily group with any number of other tank classes, and I can certainly hold agro fine, because I have become used to the machinations of my class and know what to use, and when. If the 'problems' get fixed ( now I would really like to get the correct POTG item, not the one meant for a berserker, but that is a whole other threads worth of argument) I will continue to enjoy my class. And at the end of the day, that is surely what we all want to be able to do.

[Jher]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hastur Bloodwake wrote:<BR>I have to say Jherad, and with all due respect, that yours is a classic case of 'better to keep your mouth shut and let others think you a fool, rather than open it to speak and remove all doubt.' I never stated that it was my position to decide who Guards/Zerks are. If you took the time to part the red mist of your troll rage you would see that I defined the traditional meanings of the term guardian and berserker. Ok? Thats traditional not my whine fueled self determinations of them. Right hopefully you have got that. I also did not scream for a berserker nerf, neither did I state I wished for any actual or particular 'improvements' to the Guardian class. In fact, I actually stated that I don't mind playing alongside other tank classes. Feeling stupid yet?<BR><BR>FYI, in lore ( which you have obviously picked up from gaming and have actually no real clue about) berserkers in battle could, I agree, shrug off wounds while actually in the throes of their berserk rage ( because they were too frenzied and high on adrenalin and certain substances to notice, not because they could 'magically' deflect them,) but afterwards always succumbed to their wounds and, if bad enough, died. And that is NOT just my personal opinion, that is fact. Please don't think to lecture a European player on European myth and lore.<BR><BR>Guardians are, on the whole ( apart form a tiny few), not calling for a berserker nerf. We don't want to be the only tank, neither do we wish to be made superior to anyone else. What we do ask ( and you will note that we ask this on our OWN forums, and do not take our grievances across to the forums of another class. Can you say the same?) is that the problems, and there are problems which if you had actually played the bloody class you would be aware of, that we would, at some stage, like to be attended to. In the meantime, these niggles have not impaired my enjoyment of the class one whit, I love being a guardian. I happily group with any number of other tank classes, and I can certainly hold agro fine, because I have become used to the machinations of my class and know what to use, and when. If the 'problems' get fixed ( now I would really like to get the correct POTG item, not the one meant for a berserker, but that is a whole other threads worth of argument) I will continue to enjoy my class. And at the end of the day, that is surely what we all want to be able to do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ah, the old follow 'with all due respect' with an insult jibe. Very droll.</P> <P>To respond to the slightly more intelligent points however, I'll merely make a few comments:</P> <P>First, I did not accuse you personally of asking for Zerker nerfs. However to clarify that, and address a second point at the same time (amazing multitasking!) there ARE a select few doing that, and it seems that the Guardian boards have been their chosen place to express their ill-feeling; hence my decision to come and express my own opinions on the subject.</P> <P>FYI, in lore the berserker ability to shrug off wounds whilst in the throes of battle was actually quite often expressed as seemingly magical, with very little time given to identify that this might be due to being in a frenzied state and 'high on adrenaline' - remember that most 'lore' on the subject is in the form of prose/poetry. Believe it or not, I am European also, and can/will lecture you on the subject of European myth/lore, if you choose to argue with fact. This point however is somewhat irrelevant to the subject being discussed within this thread, so I will let it pass as merely your desire to flame. No, not feeling stupid yet - I hope you recover soon.</P> <P>On the subject of requirements for Guardian fixes, I full support you, and the rest of the Guardian community. I would LOVE to see improvements, especially in the Guardians ability to hold aggro. Let us simply hope that fewer people feel the need to believe that improvements must be made through the 'nerfing' of other classes. I think we can agree there.</P> <P>Edit: Addition - On the subject of the POTG item, I simply can't understand why this has not been fixed now. I am under the impression that Freeport Guardians do receive the correct item, so surely this should be a simple quest tweak on the Qeynos side.</P><p>Message Edited by Jherad on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 AM</span>

[Grimme]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Makkaio wrote:<BR> <DIV><tells us it's a tactical / strategic problem> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Hehe I was actually thinking exactly the same thing, you beat me to it. I have something I tell to mages who have aggro problems: mages should never start a fight, they should finish it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This zerker rage skill "is what it is". The problem isn't the skill, the problem is that the community doesn't know how to use it yet. There are so many strategies that took years to become common in EQ1. I actually hope they don't change this, it's an easy way to tell the good zerkers from the bad heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Experienced berserkers won't use rage except at the appropriate time is all.</DIV>

[Manopow]

<DIV>Guardians Guard the MT, witch ever fighter that may be, changing durring a fight look <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=2664" target=_blank>here</A></DIV>