Ok lets all take a deep breath -

[GenesisForgot]

I'm about to hit level 29 Guardian and here's my take on things:This class rules. It is very easy for me to find a group and people are impressed with my tanking abilities. I have very high AC and HP and very low DPS as a result. I contribute nothing to my group EXCEPT myself as a meatshield. If I want to help with DPS I have a pair of dual weilders but I still don't come close to any other fighter class in terms of raw dmg produced.This was the path I chose and I am happy that the Guardian class is what I expected.Here is where I am unhappy:An equal level berserker with the same gear who plays defensively is a better "Guardian" than myself. He can hold aggro without anything but his bloodlust. He contributed atleast 3-4 time the DPS. He has the same access to armor and hp (4hp per level difference due to 1 stamina less). If Berserkers were smart they would all play defensively and steel the job of the Guardian class soundly. Nobody would pick a guardian for a group if Berserkers realized what their class is capable of doing - being the best tank.That being said, I don't want to be "THE BEST TANK," but there is a reason I sacrificed my offense. There is a reason I do next to no damage when compared with the 23 other classes in the game. I was MEANT to be better at one thing - tanking. I was meant to be the highest AC/HP guy around and the only one in Vanguard. I was supposed to hold aggro on groups of mobs and not let it go even to a zerker. I was also supposed to be able to retake hate very quickly or protect my teamates in emergencies.As it stands, a Berserker in full Armor Quest, crafted jewelry, nice helm, and shield is a better Tank than anybody else could ever hope to be. While he's at it he can tripple my dps, have unbreakable hate, and puts me soundly out of a job.I don't want the Zerkers to be nerfed because as a Warrior they SHOULD be great tanks, but I'd like a re-evaluation of what Guardian's are supposed to have that is unique and what I sacrificed my offense for. If you aren't a guardian don't talk about this like you know something we don't. I see my dmg numbers and I see my tanking ability. You don't realize the incredibly low DPS of a Guardian until you play one. You don't understand the frustration at having a single role in a group and being out done in every single category to the point of making you wonder why you didn't just play a defensive zerker because you would have been better at everything.<p>Message Edited by GenesisForgoten on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span>

[Troupez]

<DIV>Very nicely put.  I didn't plan on being good at DPS at all but I did plan on being the "best" tank since our DPS is much lower than a Zerker.</DIV>

[Ainm]

<blockquote><hr>GenesisForgoten wrote:I'm about to hit level 29 Guardian and here's my take on things:This class rules. It is very easy for me to find a group and people are impressed with my tanking abilities. I have very high AC and HP and very low DPS as a result. I contribute nothing to my group EXCEPT myself as a meatshield. If I want to help with DPS I have a pair of dual weilders but I still don't come close to any other fighter class in terms of raw dmg produced.This was the path I chose and I am happy that the Guardian class is what I expected.Here is where I am unhappy:An equal level berserker with the same gear who plays defensively is a better "Guardian" than myself. He can hold aggro without anything but his bloodlust. He contributed atleast 3-4 time the DPS. He has the same access to armor and hp (4hp per level difference due to 1 stamina less). If Berserkers were smart they would all play defensively and steel the job of the Guardian class soundly. Nobody would pick a guardian for a group if Berserkers realized what their class is capable of doing - being the best tank.That being said, I don't want to be "THE BEST TANK," but there is a reason I sacrificed my offense. There is a reason I do next to no damage when compared with the 23 other classes in the game. I was MEANT to be better at one thing - tanking. I was meant to be the highest AC/HP guy around and the only one in Vanguard. I was supposed to hold aggro on groups of mobs and not let it go even to a zerker. I was also supposed to be able to retake hate very quickly or protect my teamates in emergencies.As it stands, a Berserker in full Armor Quest, crafted jewelry, nice helm, and shield is a better Tank than anybody else could ever hope to be. While he's at it he can tripple my dps, have unbreakable hate, and puts me soundly out of a job.I don't want the Zerkers to be nerfed because as a Warrior they SHOULD be great tanks, but I'd like a re-evaluation of what Guardian's are supposed to have that is unique and what I sacrificed my offense for. If you aren't a guardian don't talk about this like you know something we don't. I see my dmg numbers and I see my tanking ability. You don't realize the incredibly low DPS of a Guardian until you play one. You don't understand the frustration at having a single role in a group and being out done in every single category to the point of making you wonder why you didn't just play a defensive zerker because you would have been better at everything.<p>Message Edited by GenesisForgoten on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Where have you seen that Berserkers triple Guardian dps? Have you parsed it or have any other evidence?

[GenesisForgot]

Its an estimate. If anybody wants to provide hard evidence, go for it. As it stands, I'm certain Zerkers do a GREAT deal more damage than guardian's do - even with a single weapon / shield on. This isn't hard to establish as they have a whole slew of skills that increase their attk speed and dmg.This also comes from 9 levels of grouping and first hand experience..<p>Message Edited by GenesisForgoten on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 PM</span>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:37 PM</span>

[Ainm]

Because the damage is central to his whole argument. He stated Berserkers are doing "3-4 times" the damage a Guardian would do. Later he says triple. If this is true then there is a serious, significant problem. If it is not true, his argument rests on an entirely different foundation: that Berserkers mitigate damage as well as Guardians. Neither of these has been established with anything but anecdotal evidence. It is unreasonable for you to complain about something you cannot prove, and without data you cannot determine the best way to fix any real imbalance.We can all sit around and have a circle jerk, or we can get things accomplished. When someone posts real data showing an imbalance, then changes will occur. It worked for EQLive and it will work for EQ2.So if you believe there's an imbalance, PROVE IT. We'll all love to see it. Until then, it's useless to make arguments based on unsupportable statements.

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

Aimer screw real data man. I'm going on 9 levels of play. On the zerkers they are asking who does more dmg - a monk or a zerker. All I know is a don't do didly compared to EITHER of them. Are you a guardian? Please post your profile. I'm 29 and well equiped and I don't do any dps at all, even with 2 steel stilettos. We don't need a log parse to see what's perfectly obvious man. Jesus.

[GenesisForgot]

Also, I don't CARE that I do less damage, I just find it screwy that we sacrificed our dps for no noticable improvement in Taunt, Armor, or HP over our counterpart. It is obvious who is the better tank. If there is a berserker in the group, I am not MT anymore and am mooching XP when we could have a true DPS in my place. If no Zerker is around I do fine but sooner or later people will wise up and think to themselves, "why have this guy in our group when we can have a tank who can actually help with dps?" I don't want to be substantially better, I just want to be able to hold hate when a zerker is in my group. That is perfectly reasonable.