Bloodlust and Guardian skills - Zerk perspective

[Dashel]

Just a quick note on the problems Guardians are having. I know our classes compete for the Tank job in groups but I think we are both on the same team here, or at least should be.As I posted in another thread, it seems to me there are 2 issues right now. One is Zerker agro, which I think is mostly a factor of Bloodlust doing more than it should to generate hate. In general though, I know Guards can hold agro just fine with Hold the Line and the various taunts and skills they have. So can Zerks, this is as it should be. This is more a problem for Zerks as I see it. Either we take the agro whether we want it or not, or shut down our abilities and lose a ton of DPS, which makes no sense especially if we aren't tanking. I totally understand it being annoying to lose agro as MT. Bloodlust is broken, needs to be fixed.The second, and seemingly bigger problem for Guardian is that some Guardians feel their skills are nothing especially useful. I dont play one so I'll take your word for it. I think it would be much more constructive to post which specific skill is lacking and suggest an improvement. Simply saying "our skills suck they take 8 years to cast and do nothing", isn't gonna help. What skill? What should it do? Would making it generate more hate faster help? Make it concentration based? Less concentration on it? Scrap it and make a skill that does X,Y and Z? It seems to me the Guardian niche is to take damage better in terms of mitigation. Is this not the case? You want to be able to save people in the odd situation, that's what rescue should be for. Guardians should be the better damage takers, period. Zerks should be the better damage dealers, period. How is this not the case currently?Is Shouting Cry broken? Smothering Cry? Guardian Call? Ruin, Iron Will, Dig In? I'm going by a skill list that may or may not be accurate. Don't these things make you better at taking damage?

[Ellind]

<DIV>Thanks at the attempt to understand the problem.  the problem we are facing is very simple to understand tho:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berzerkers are supposed to have more offense and less defense when compared to a guardian.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are supposed to sacrifice offense and gain more defense when compared to Zerkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>unfortunately right now... we have same AC, same Defense, same Gear options, same Taunts and that's where it stops.  From that point you guys do a ton of damage, we do hardly any and have no other benefits whatsoever.  The major benefit was supposed to be a higher defense or AC (which was apparent by the current EQ2 manual and the website showing vanguard as armor weight class that guards could take but not zerkers) Which would have been just fine.  Unfortunately it didn't get implemented that way and now there is literally no reason to pick a guardian over a zerker.  We are exactly the same except for zerks get the dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that clears it up.</DIV>

[Dashel]

I'm seeing it a different way. As I see it, Guardians and Berserkers are the same class except for the skills they get post level 19.So we will have the same AC, HP, Defense, Weapon skills, Dual Wield, Shield etc... but, Zerks get skills like Berserk, Bloodlust and Barrage while Guardians get skills like Sentinel, Allay, and Dig In. You guys get the edge in overall defense from your skills. We get it in overall damage from our skills.Even our skills are very similar if you look at it. Maul and Ruin. Maim and Viscous Blow. Press and Slam. We both get Rescue. Infuriation and Never Surrender. You just get more of the defensive type, and we get more of the offensive.

[Ellind]

<DIV>Which is a fine way to look at it, and I agree.  If we could get our post 19 abilities to raise our defense or ac or hp's (ya know, like extra big versions of toughness and hunker down, etc) then we'd be perfect.  So I am now at least in complete agreement it's not armor for one or the other, this problem lies soley in the post 19 abilities.  Your post 19 is mostly some cool offensive stuff (and it *should* be) ours should be some cool denfensive stuff.  Agreed?</DIV>

[Glanor]

<blockquote><hr>Ellindar wrote:<DIV>Your post 19 is mostly some cool offensive stuff (and it *should* be) ours should be some cool denfensive stuff. Agreed?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Yeah.

[Maeckie]

<DIV>Don't forget that we should get better taunts ... </DIV> <DIV>So we do generate more hate then any other class ever can do, otherwise we are useless</DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>Well, taunts imo should be pretty equal for zerkers and guards.  I feel both of us need to be able to taunt equally well.  I think the only differences should be where zerkers get offensive buffs and skills we should get defensive buffs and skills.  Basically they should lose some staying power to do their damage and we should lose some damage to get some staying power.  But controlled by abilities so it's always an option.  That way zerkers or guards are basically still both equally wanted as a tank for a group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my opinion on that however.</DIV>

[Ainm]

<blockquote><hr>Ellindar wrote:<DIV>Thanks at the attempt to understand the problem. the problem we are facing is very simple to understand tho:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Berzerkers are supposed to have more offense and less defense when compared to a guardian.</DIV><DIV>Guardians are supposed to sacrifice offense and gain more defense when compared to Zerkers.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>unfortunately right now... we have same AC, same Defense, same Gear options, same Taunts and that's where it stops. From that point you guys do a ton of damage, we do hardly any and have no other benefits whatsoever. The major benefit was supposed to be a higher defense or AC (which was apparent by the current EQ2 manual and the website showing vanguard as armor weight class that guards could take but not zerkers) Which would have been just fine. Unfortunately it didn't get implemented that way and now there is literally no reason to pick a guardian over a zerker. We are exactly the same except for zerks get the dps.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Hope that clears it up.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Simply not true.Guardians have Protection abilties, Berserkers do not. They are -not- useless.Yesterday my 26ish group did the Zek access instance. Early on we had more than one group fighting us, and regardless of my ability to keep the group we were fightng on me with HTL, the other group merrily targetted our one healer (a Templar) and started pounding away. I engaged most of my protection abilities and the templar stood right next to me. As a result, we were easily able to overcome both groups. A berserker would have had a dead healer and would have died soon after.Stop saying we get nothing to match dps. Used properly, protection abilities can be as useful or more useful than berserker dps abilities.One reason this may not be clear to many Guardians so far is because most people do not try the harder instances and dungeons and instead go for whatever easy xp they can get with single pulls in outdoor zones.

[Ellind]

<DIV>"Stop saying we get nothing to match dps. Used properly, protection abilities can be as useful or more useful than berserker dps abilities."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just going to say LOL to this.  I'm fairly certain the guardian abilities have been proven to be useless at best... and that from guardians in their 30+ levels.  If you're going off taunting and trying to case a 'protection' spell, welcome to lost the aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why is it so hard for you to accept zerkers and guards being equal except they take an offensive route for themselves and we would take a defensive route for ourselves?  Instead of these abilities that don't hardly absorb any damage, let alone be worth it to try in the middle of a fight?  </DIV>

[Ainm]

<blockquote><hr>Ellindar wrote:<DIV>"Stop saying we get nothing to match dps. Used properly, protection abilities can be as useful or more useful than berserker dps abilities."</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm just going to say LOL to this. I'm fairly certain the guardian abilities have been proven to be useless at best... and that from guardians in their 30+ levels. If you're going off taunting and trying to case a 'protection' spell, welcome to lost the aggro.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Why is it so hard for you to accept zerkers and guards being equal except they take an offensive route for themselves and we would take a defensive route for ourselves? Instead of these abilities that don't hardly absorb any damage, let alone be worth it to try in the middle of a fight? </DIV><hr></blockquote>Sorry, it's simply not true. Several times in situations with multiple encounter groups the protection abilities have worked great for my groups. When your druid is able to tank a tough group like a champ, either of two things are true: Druids are great tanks, or Guardian defense skills work well. Although to hear you tell it, you'd probably argue that druids are just great tanks and my protection abilties didn't affect the outcome at all.

[Ellind]

<DIV>Like I said, we can agree to disagree, because those guards spells are borderline ridiuclous.  A buff somewhere of the defensive nature would be much more appreicated...  as for the druid case, here's a quote from a warden herself:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I play a lvl 24 Warden on Neriak (originally of Mistmoore). Early on, I knew druids would have the most troubles healing, so I made sure to always keep my gear as good as I could get with high AC. From level 10 to 20, I almost always had more AC than the tank. Which was a good thing. The tanks just didn't have the necessary aggro controls at those levels to handle druid healing when facing multiple foes of higher level.<BR><BR>So I would often end up tanking large groups/fights halfway through the battle and with the insane aggro from nettleshield and regens, I'd keep myself the focus of the mobs attention and keep myself alive. It's pretty easy to do unless there happens to be a Named++ in the middle of the group too. That hurts. =)<BR><BR>I've recently completed my armor quests that start at level twenty and my AC has fallen behind the tanks finally. Which is a good, if disappointing, thing, but even so... I still find I can tank in a pinch of things get truly hairy and the fighter just can't keep aggro. With a shaman to ward me, it's even easier to tank things. So find some mystic/defiler (good/evil shaman) and guardian friends and group with them all the time. You'll be able to kill most anything out there, as appropriate for your level of course. Just fill in the last three group spots with any class. Mages and scouts will help you kill faster while other tanks and healers will help you outlast the mobs damage."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/chuckle</DIV>