I would like to state ONE simple solution that is supposed to ALREADY be in place... DEV HELP!

[Ellind]

<DIV>EDIT - After some great debate, and only a couple of direct attacks... heh, I am in complete agreement that the armor is not the issue.  As someone else said, giving us access to better armor would then make berzerkers a useless class.  So the answer is solely in post 19 guardian abilities.  As zerks get abilities to do extra damage, guards should get abilities to give better defense. (whether it be ac, hp's, or defense) These should last about the same amount of time as bloodlusting, etc.  It should be thought about like Iron Will or something, giving us a chance to instead of rage, go into some super defensive mode.  Basically, it should mirror the zerkers, except where they have an offensive buff, ours should be the exact same type of skill but be defense instead.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this maybe something everyone could agree on?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ellindar on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 PM</span>

[DenverJay]

<DIV>While I agree with the post.  I don't necessarily think zerkers should be able to wear the same armor as us, nor should they be able to use the same shields as us.  Zerkers should be about offensive damage and being a darn good off tank.  I mean right now they can obviously wear the same armor and if I'm not mistaken use the same shields as us.  But, if you look at the zerker skill list it's very plain to see that zerkers are much more offensive in nature.  This is what they are meant to do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your premise is a little off though.  On the official EQ2 website, if you click on fighter archetype, then click on the guardian, zerker, sk and pally, they all show heavy armor.  No one even has vanguard listed, just heavy.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, I don't think they'll nerf zerkers from wearing vanguard, and that's fine.  What should happen though is guardian abilities should be such that they don't have to nerf zerkers in that way.  Guardian abilities should allow a guardian to get agro, maintain agro and mitigate damage taken.  If bloodlust is over agro'ing then it should be looked into and adjusted.  I think as we get to higher levels this will work itself out.  But if it doesn't, then guardian skills need to be tweaked so guardians can do what they're meant to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mack</DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>OMG... I am *not* kidding they changed that.  That used to say vanguard, I will swear it under oath and penalty of death.  Zerks were always listed as Heavy and Guards vanguard.  (paladins having vanguard listed also)  BAH!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am telling you right now that way back since they first put the archtypes up there, vanguard was *always* listed as a class of armor and was listed for Guards and not zerkers.  They for some reason have changed their mind and made it instead a type of heavy armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians need their own class of armor that only they can wear.  I can't believe they changed that.  SHAFTED</DIV>

[DenverJay]

<DIV>Haha, don't sweat it.  I remember what you're talking about.  It did used to say that.  Not sure why it was decided to change it, we may never know.  Oh well, I know what you're talking about.  :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mack</DIV>

[AlexT]

<DIV>I completely agree with you, zerkers should not be able to ware Vanguard.  Another class that can ware Vanguard that i think should not be are clerics, they too where once just heavy armor on the website.  If they are going to let more than just guardians/SK/pallies use vanguard then we should have our own better and unique version</DIV>

[Crus]

<DIV>I looked it up in the printed EQ2 manual you got when buying the game. It clearly says:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bezerker: Heavy, plate only</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian: Heavy, Vanguard and Plate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Probably they allowed Bezerkers vanguard by misstake and then didn't have the guts to nerf it when they discovered the misstake.</DIV>

[AslaanH]

<DIV>Not allowing zerkers to wear vanguard does little to nothing to make you tank better. Vanguard and Heavy Plate have the same AC etc, vanguard was only made prettier graphicaly to show I dunno some sort of prestige?</DIV>

[Reld]

<DIV>It was intentionally changed in beta so that Zerks could wear vanguard.  It's not a bug, it's working as intended.  </DIV>

[OGRE4]

I agree, since they first put up the info on the site about armor it made sense guards would have vanguard and zerkers should have something else. They are stronger then us offensivly why should they wear the same defensive armor? Why not let wizards wear vanguard to and we can all have a party. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ainm]

How is Berserker's ability to wear Vanguard affecting you right now?I dunno about you guys, but I'm just fine in my ability to get groups, so it isn't like Berserkers are getting all the groups. Further, I've very often found myself grouped with a Berserker with myself as the MT. Sure, if by the end game, Berserkers do everything we do better, then there's room to worry. But for day to day play I don't think any players out there give a crap about what class their tank is. They are more focused on getting a tank at all.

[Eriny]

they said Berzerkers cannot wear vanguard. that why i choose guardian, cause vanguard are cool.. The manual book said so, so is the everquest 2 website. But.. it turned out that zerkers can wear vanguard too. ;(~~

[Ellind]

<DIV>Let me just clarify a couple of things, especially for someone like Ainmer who just doesn't quite understand where we're coming from.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone wants their class to stand out in SOME way.  Berzerkers do this easily, as they are the only class who can bloodlust, go berzerk and do really good damage, yet still tank really well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what do we want?  A *way* to stand out on our own.  Right now we tank at almost the same level as a berzerker with the only noticble difference being that we do WAY less damage.  And thanks to bloodlust, we hold aggro a lot less than they do also.  Now I know some of you probably didn't do this, but I'm betting the majority did... and that was to look at the web site before the game went live, and see that guardians were obviously different because they could wear vanguard and berzerkers could not.  And since the list on the web site went light, medium, heavy, vanguard... pretty much most of us were like, "ok, vanguard must be the best armor you can get and must have a much better ac than any heavy armor.  So we chose guardian with the assumption that we would definitely have a better ac than berzerkers and therefore be a bit more defensive while they were a bit more offensive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well we aren't.  From everything I have read and seen now, all the way up through the 30's and into the 40's our Defense, and AC will be the same as the berzerkers unless the berzerker does not take a shield and the guardian does.  Our hp's will be a *little* more than them, but not enough to even sneeze at.  So I put you to the test... WHERE do we benefit from sacrificing our offense?  Where!?!?  If we had the best AC available to characters and berzerkers did not, then we'd stand out.  I think this is exactly what they meant to do, and it either got lost in the shuffle, or like someone else said, Berzerkers *whined* in beta and the devs gave it to them and they're too scared to change it back...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even Paladin's who can wear the best armor, have spells and better offense than us.  You have to understand we have absolutely ZERO defining characteristics AT THIS POINT.  I'm pretty sure this has GOT to plain for everyone to see by now?  It has nothing to do with the fact.. "I can taunt fine, I can keep aggro fine"  I don't want to be fine... I want something that WE do to be a benefit to be a guardian and make us stand out just like the other classes.  PERIOD.  And I'm pretty sure that's what 99.9% of every other guardian out there wants too.  We didn't choose guardian to be the uber character... that's evident...</DIV>

[TacticalMarm]

The only reason i chose to play as a guardian was to be the only class able to wear vanguard, and I was a bit upset when I saw that Berserkers could wear it also. If i knew that I would have played a berserker <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[LumpyD]

<DIV>This is a stupid post. Period. Yes, lets take away berserker armor because of a broken spell. That way they can have the same armor as scouts, do half their damage, have no utility, and tank for crap. Great idea.</DIV>

[LumpyD]

<DIV>Didn't see you said we should wear plate.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still a bad suggestion. There is nothing wrong with your class, as I said, it is Bloodlust.. stop asking for nerfs. </DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>Lol.. I don't *want* nerfs.  At ALL.  I want your stupid berzerkers to do as much damage as you want Lumpy.  What *I* want, is for our Guardians, that sacrifice ALL of our offense to have better DEFENSE than berzerkers.  That was the point from the beginning, and that's not what's implemented.  Otherwise, we should ALL just become zerkers.  Which is fine if that's what it takes, just wish I hadn't put all this time into Guardian then!</DIV>

[Glanor]

<blockquote><hr>Ellindar wrote:<DIV>Lol.. I don't *want* nerfs. At ALL. I want your stupid berzerkers to do as much damage as you want Lumpy. What *I* want, is for our Guardians, that sacrifice ALL of our offense to have better DEFENSE than berzerkers. That was the point from the beginning, and that's not what's implemented. Otherwise, we should ALL just become zerkers. Which is fine if that's what it takes, just wish I hadn't put all this time into Guardian then!</DIV><hr></blockquote>Which is funny because a nerf to bloodlust aggro is needed and not really a nerf. Giving guardians their own special armor that makes them better than everyone would be a death knell to every other tank, not just berzerkers.And check your art list before you say silly crap like "is for our Guardians, that sacrifice ALL of our offense to have better DEFENSE than berzerkers." It just makes you look ridiculous.

[Ellind]

<DIV>Uhm... did check my art list mr. ridiculous. I think your point is lost in your attempt to thrash me directly.  Which is fine but the statement I made is still valid.  Our combat art list is definitely pathetic, giving us no way to buff our defense even though we do a fraction of the offense berzerkers do.  I would assume you can understand that before you try an attack on me again?</DIV>

[Glanor]

Compare (from another thread, thanks bazkra)21.6 - Bury : AE attack which also puts a crushing DoT on one of them22 - Slam : High damage attack25 - True Strike : Attack which ignores enemy AC25.6 - Ruin : Attack + offense debuff + slashing DoTAll 4 do High dmg, even Bury is worth using it against a Single opponent (Dot is far above Wound)And now Bersi:21.6 - Furious Onslaught : AE attack + chance to Berserk24.6 - Raging Strike : Attack which has chance to make you Berserk but you do less damage25.6 - Maul : Attack which also lowers target's defense + stun I don't see where the "fraction" crap is coming from. The only remotely damaging thing berzerkers get that guardians don't (until at least 25) is the ability to go berzerk. And I will tell you right now that I NEVER use ANYTHING that is likely to berzerk me when I tank. I use a sword (well.. mace) and shield just like you do. I use wound, mangle, and knee bash, all skills you have access to.And here's a fun fact, going berzerk as an offtank is HARD. Most healers don't want us intervening the tank to trigger it. And obviously, we can't use bloodlust unless we want to tank the rest of the fight. So even in our "DPS mode", we aren't actually doing a whole lot of DPS. Maybe if Bloodlust wasn't creating an aggro lock we could actually do this DPS you rattle on about and we wouldn't have 10 seperate threads about how berzerkers steal hate from you.But no, let's give guardians the best armor in the game, making them hands down the best tank. Brilliant idea!

[Khal]

<DIV>You are aware that the manual and the website have not been updated since beta started.  Zerkers were wearing vanguard throughout beta and it was well known and posted about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars can also wear vanguard as they are also classified "Heavy Armor".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look under skill list in game.  "Heavy Armor" is described as the ability to wear plate and vanguard armor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clearly not a bug, the manual and website are and have been out of date and inaccurate for quite some time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If guardians need anything, its better taunting ability.  I'm in the low 30s, there is no doubt guardians tank better. It is very noticable and I am sure it will be even more so later on in levels.  Add better taunting abilities to the guardian and change the way that Berserker's Berserk counts as a buff cast and generates hate is the way to go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Posting on differant boards to nerf everything berserkers have isn't the answer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deal with the problem that you have with your class, not what you think is wrong for another.  </DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>I've already stated I don't want zerks nerfed, and thanks to Daschel's post I am in firm agreement that what guardians need as a fix is their post 19 abilities to actually reflect a boost in defense, just as your post 19's reflect offense.  Add on top of that the fix to Bloodlust's aggro problem (which both zerks and guards seem to agree upon is bugged somehow) and I think everyone would be happy.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I retract the armor statement and throw it onto guardian abilities being changed and will edit above to reflect this.</DIV>