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[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV>Mods, delete this thread.  Better threads on the same subject already exist.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:41 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 PM</span>

[Ligu]

<DIV>Well, I am now a level 38 Guardian and have been grouping with a zerker friend of mine daily since 32. When grouped he has always been MT becouse ive had no chance of keeping agro from him once he starts doing dps, and his ac/hp is more or less the same. After todays patch though i am able to keep agro on most things unless he wants it. I wouldnt mind having it done a bit easier though since it is **mods 4 teh win!!1!** hard work and involves more or less every skill i have at my disposal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont really mind playing dps/second tank since its a nice change every once in a while, plus we get a couple nice shielding skills aswell witch is fairly usefull for this. Our dps aint on hight with the real dps classes no, but it is not that bad again. Using a 2hander going full offensive can actualy deal a decent amount of damage. </DIV>

[Tristor]

<DIV>Whining about a nerf allready because your class isnt doing what you want. Sorry to burst your bubble but read your class name again, its Guardian. Both these classes are working the way they are meant to work in my opinion.</DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>    It sounds like this person has made up his mind on what class he would like to be unless he is just fixed on the name. Reading posts in this forum you would think the only thing Guardians get is an innate ability to whine----what level do we get that at? I have noticed that the biggest problem that people are having is they play this game the only way they know how...like EQ1. Now I'm just offering suggestions, things that I have been trying to test out.</DIV> <DIV>    </DIV> <DIV>    Try making the highest DPS in the group, preferably someone with decent hp, the MA (main assist) that means you need to set your Assist macro to him/her also.</DIV> <DIV>Now this does a couple things. It allows you to focus on agro if need be including adds that you see walk by. Also, you can more easily watch other players giving you some extra time to throw on an intervene "which draws agro also" if you see someone else taking damge. </DIV> <DIV>    You are STILL the tank and will be drawing all the damage. The only difference is the group wont be waiting for your slow attacks and you can focus on other things than what target to hit.  Obviously you will have to modify this some based on the group ie mezzer but it still works you just have to make sure you dont break the mezz.</DIV> <DIV>   How many times have you changed target to help someone with intervene and everyone is still clicking on their assist button going what the hell? Or you change targets because you lost agro and everyone else changes targets with you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   There are many methods to playing the guardian. I would say its probably one of the most challenging classes if you play it well. But if its not working for you, keep trying something else or pick another class thats easier and less confusing for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>I think the misconception here is that guardians or whatever class you wish to bring forward should have an "I win" button for their hotbar.  Just click this button and you get what you want, whatever that might be.  No hassles, no worries, works every time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighters can tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any class that wants agro, can get agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some classes can generate agro very quickly and for some of those classes like zerker, paladin and SK, its a good thing.   They can get agro quick so they can make a very important contribution to the group.  They help keep people that can also generate agro very quickly, like casters and priests, alive.  Does that mean that they want to take agro from a guardian? Does not taking agro from a guardian mean not using all of your skills?  No.  What it means is that the group manages agro, they put it where they want it and keep it there.  Just because you have a button that has refreshed and you can use it again, does not mean it is best for your group to do so.  Maximiumizing your dps does not necessarily lead to a successful encounter, playing well does. </DIV>

[Terribl]

<DIV>I think the problem is more the zerker AC than the guardians...the zerkers have hp/ac just a little bit lower than a guardian of the same class, so, with them being able to draw more agro, it only makes since that they are a better choice in a group because they can actually do damage a pretty good bit of damage and tank just about as wel...</DIV>

[maximus2500]

<DIV>Ths is a dumb post If the Zerker cant control himself then he sucks a big **mods 4 teh win!!1!**... It all about working as a team. It dosent do any good on high ripotse mobs to have a zerker tank they will take more damage, they do have lower stats and mitagation,ect ect Gaurdian is the pure tank you want somehting tanked you call one up that simple.</DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>Exactly right, you do not group just so you and your groupmates can solo the encounter, you group to team up, to cooperate and work toward a successful outcome.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of the fighter types have pluses and minuses.  A guardian gives up some dps and ability to spike agro in exchange for being able to take damage better and maintain agro over an entire fight.  A zerker gives up defence to spike up dps and agro, guardians give up some offense to improve defense and in some cases improve agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, there will be groups that have a fighter class and want to just have 1 or maybe just 2 already, but those same groups would be telling the other fighter types they already had a tank if you were there first.  Being the best at taking damage and maintaining agro for the entire fight does not grant you a right to be tank for any and all groups, in many situations another fighter type will do well too.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do fighter types provide for a group, that is most important?  Time.  Time for different classes to pull all of their skills together for best effect, time to land a heal on the person with agro or save the person that got agro incorrectly.  An example of time provided, I was grouped with a warden sometime ago and had just got lvl 20 and I wanted to kill knights at Cal and he of course wanted the acolytes, while looking for a few more we killed knights and one of our pulls got wandered on by more than a few.  The warden bugged out because he was concerned about death, understandable in the situation.  I stayed and a little later when he realized that I wasn't running, that no one was chasing him, he returned to support me.  We defeated all 6, true they were all green, but it does show the time we as fighters can provide.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guardian in a good group means that the group will be able to tackle harder encounters with success than they would with another type of fighter.  We all have a role as fighters to play in a group, if your group has a guardian, you would be well advised to make sure they maintain agro, as agro is a group job.  </DIV>

[gggun]

<DIV>Why don't you guys READ the post your are replying to before making comments?? Here's what the parent poster is saying:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Zerker DPS > Guardian DPS since Guards get crappy protect spells while Zerkers get blood rage and stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Zerker agro > Guardian agro, when Zerker's are zerking like freaks there's NOTHING that a Guardian can do to keep agro even if he just continuously uses every taunt skill he has. In a real group the Guardian shouldn't be taunting if the Zerker is zerking but that's not the point -- the point is that Zerkers hold agro better, protecting the scouts/wizzies/healers better than Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Zerker AC + hp = Guardian AC + hp since we wear the same armor and have virtually identical hitpoints.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conclusion: Zerkers are BETTER than Guardians PERIOD. No room for debate. Do you want high DPS with better agro or lower DPS with lower agro?? No reason to choose a Guardian unless you like low DPS or you like the MT losing agro and getting the healer killed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's the point the parent poster was trying to make -- that Zerkers are clearly superior to Guardians, and that no sane person should ever choose a Guardian for a group when he can have a Zerker. That is the DEFINITION of imbalance, once class being clearly superior to another. ZERKERS = IMBA. The solution is to either nerf Zerkers or improve Guardians.</DIV>

[Catu]

<DIV>Is it just me or are we the whiniest board out of all subclasses?</DIV> <DIV>Holding agro isnt really a problem and from what I've heard from most healers the guardians require the least amount of power to keep alive.  Stop whining please and go play a zerker if you are not enjoying being a guardian..these boards are making good guardians look bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Catulu UlvKrigare</DIV> <DIV>Guardian of Qeynos~Everfrost</DIV> <DIV><Forgotten Bloodline></DIV>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 PM</span>

[Methus]

<DIV>I'd like to say first off that im a 23 Berzerker. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just got Bloodlust and the way it functions needs to be changed. It procs berserk almost constantly (berserk is a very short duration buff) so its like your spamming buffs and DPS constantly. This makes your ability to hold aggro rediculously good. The hate gained from going berserk specificly from Bloodlust needs to be removed completely, or at least turned down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With this changed Guardian and Berserker will be on a much more level playing field as far as aggro control. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know much about the specific skills that Guardians get but it sounds like their saving type skills need to be reworked a little to give them their uniqueness and worth. In my opinion Guardians should have stronger taunting abilities to compensate for Berserker DPS. More needs to be done to give guardians a role. They should be the ultimate bodyguards in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now Berzerkers are just flat out better than Guardians in every meaningful way (at least in the mid 20's)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[vaalen]

<DIV>Holding agro gets worse at lvl 30+. you as gaurdian can hardly group with 1 druid as healer, what zerkers do just fine. It doesn't matter if you keep agro easily at level 20.</DIV>

[Sunrid]

<DIV> <DIV>Wow.  It surprises me how many guardians want to be the <STRONG>ONLY</STRONG> tank.  Where would the balance be in that.  If Guardians had guardian only armor and had the best AC what would happen to the other tank classes???.  What would happen to SK, Paladins, Berzerkers?  You think they would be able to find groups?  If that was to happen, might as well call this game EQ1 not EQ2.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really think about it Zerks and Guardians are balanced.  </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are <STRONG>better at taking damage </STRONG>than a Zerk and are more defensive , but are weaker in keeping agro.</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers <STRONG>have super agro </STRONG>and more offense, but take more damage than a guardian.  </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Can people not see the balance in that?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>If they gave Guardians superior agro and superior defense what use would the other tank classes be?</DIV> <DIV>Wouldn't it be unfair if Guardians had better agro than a Zerker?  Why would people want a zerker then?  For DPS?  LOL Zerkers are not DPS they <STRONG>do not </STRONG>dish out damage like monks, assassins, etc.</DIV></DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>Uhm, yeh... how can you read all of those *facts* and still come along and quote your exact same points and not have *any*thing to back it up Sunrider?  We take damage better... HOW?</DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>OFCOURSE, its not possible that you are a lowsy player and anyone can hold agro over you. No way that can't be true because im the best player around. Must be the games fault.</DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>"OFCOURSE, its not possible that you are a lowsy player and anyone can hold agro over you. No way that can't be true because im the best player around. Must be the games fault."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>???  Not sure who the heck this is directed at... lol, but I don't think hardly any of the original poster's facts tried to say that he was upset because everyone holds aggro better than him.  But... whatever.</DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>If low level of intelligence keeps me from whining then yeah that's me. If keeping agro from a beserker is what you are whining about than yeah you're a poor player. People have already posted what to do to keep agro. Use battle cry after anger and shouting cry, there is no way he is going to get agro from you. Try it before you start whining again. Just because you haven't found a way doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  And who cares about agro?!! I just finished two heritage quests tonight and we had fun and yeah I lost agro sometimes because i wasn't paying attention. We all got cool stuff that most people dont have because they sit there and exp grind thinking its going to get them somewhere. Play the game and quit whining like a baby.</DIV> <DIV>                                                                        </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                         29 lvl Guardian   TOWAR</DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

What level are you?I was saying the same thing until I hit the late 20's and now am about to reach 30. I don't even bother grouping with zerkers anymore. Its a waste of my time and a headache.

[Belce]

<DIV>Well said Ealix, and Gen, he said he is 29, or about the same time you quit, he says he is still finding success.  </DIV>