A Berserker's Perspective

[Bloochinat]

<DIV>I see alot of people in this forums complaining about how much their Guardian sucks. To the ones who are upset, I ask you to learn to play your class more efficiently. Stop talking about how zerkers tank better, do more damage, hold aggro better and so forth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure. A zerker can do more damage. I mean, its in the name. If you came into playing a Guardian thinking you were going to be a damage machine that is your own fault.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a 23 Berserker. I group with the same bunch of people most times. A Pally, Swashbuckler, Wizzie, Shaman, and Warden. Now, the pally out tanks me hands down. With the ward they can cast on themselves, coupled with shaman ward, and the aggro the Pally's self ward accrues + taunt skill it is very tough getting aggro off him. Hell when Pally isnt around and I am main tank, I have a hard time keeping aggro off the Wizzie sometimes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There was only one Guardian that I have grouped with who I could get aggro off of, or anyone could get aggro off of for that matter. And we had a 25 Warlock in the group that day. I blame that particular Guardian for not knowing how to play his class though. Hell, a 24 Dwarf Guardian the other day DARED us to get aggro off him. In 4 hours of xp grind, not one of us got aggro off him at any point. Does that make him special? Well yeah, kind of. He wasnt trying to out damage anyone. He wasnt sad his little hammer was doing crappy DPS. He knew that wasnt his job. His job was aggro control and guarding our hind ends froma  beatdown. Hence the name.. GUARDIAN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you play a guardian and want to be a damage dealer. You chose poorly. If you want to be the central part of a group, holding aggro, and saving lives only secondary to a healer in the group, you chose wisely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those who say a Berserker can out tank you. Pay attention to how much mana is used to keep the Berserker alive, and then notice how much it takes to keep a Guardian alive. ( assuming the Guardian knows what he/she is doing ) Less mana use = less downtime = more effiecient group. Thats what having the right people in the right group will do for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you find yourself having lots of issues, talk to other Guardians about how to play your character better. Dont get on the boards and cry for Berserkers to be changed. We are fine, and so are you.</DIV>

[Dahntahl]

I think what guardians are whining about is not that they can't tank.. its just that the "Guardian" skills we get don't help us tank. The skills we use that help us with aggro (at least me so far) are all generic warrior skills.The skills guardian gets mainly help them for being a secondary tank, absorbing damage from a main tank.

[Br0]

Well said! I guess I have the same outlook as the Dwarf you mentioned. I know I do crap for damage, and I'm fine with that. There's something I enjoy about letting something beat on me while all the damage machines take it out. Personally, I think the Guardian class is fun and I look forward to seeing how the class progresses.

[Br0]

<blockquote><hr>Dahntahl wrote:I think what guardians are whining about is not that they can't tank.. its just that the "Guardian" skills we get don't help us tank. The skills we use that help us with aggro (at least me so far) are all generic warrior skills.The skills guardian gets mainly help them for being a secondary tank, absorbing damage from a main tank.<hr></blockquote> I've seen people saying that, and it's utter crap IMO. I think people are drawing conclusions too quickly without realizing the costs associated with keeping said "tank" alive. How can people draw conculusions in the early twenties? Guardians and Beserkers have just begun to separate their paths at that point. Let's wait until mid 40's, then compare.

[Za]

<DIV>Sorry but you're just wrong Bloochinator.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been lurking these 'guardian sucks' threads for a while, hoping it wasn't true, and not seeing any evidence that it is true...until exactly level 24</DIV> <DIV>I resent you saying that I don't know how to play my class because I lose aggro to a Berserker no matter what I do in some groups at this level.  One of my guildees is a 23 berzerker as well, and I can tell you that something is very wrong with the amount of taunt his bloodlust generates.  I did numerous tests...used every taunt, every buff, hold the line, etc etc...for hours and hours.  I was the puller, had initial aggro, I pulled with shouting cry, i used normal taunt, dropped into hold the line, used all my defensive buffs and then burned all power on dps and taunting....and he could still take aggro away mid fight without taunting at all, just doing dps.  We also had a 25 scout in group...and even on full burn he wasn't pulling aggro off me.  He was outdamaging the berzerker by far, yet the berzerker was taking aggro no matter what I did.  I would be completely out of power from burning abilities and taunts, berzerker would be at 80% power and he'd still pull aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can you tell us something isn't wrong here and we need to play our class better?  I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about and you need to do some more research before coming to this forum and telling us to stop whining.  Maybe you're just worried you're going to get nerfed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can we 'play our class more efficiently' when using every taunt generating ability and shred of power does not allow us to out taunt a berzerker's bloodlust.  (PS. I care nothing about DPS, I care about tanking and holding aggro...thats what the descriptions say this class is supposed to do and thats what I aim to do.  Also the berzerker mentioned above has very similar gear and is one level lower than me, oh and I have adept 1's for most of my abilities and taunts)<BR></DIV>

[Ryan]

Zamz, just a quick question.What level are your skills at?They should all be at least App3...if there not that could explain why zerker was getting aggro. So far as a 21 Guardian with app3 taunt's ect., no one has been able to out aggro me.Try using Rallying Cry along with Battle Tactics and even Call to Arms to generate more aggro.

[Za]

<DIV>Hi RyanSN - you're right those are good tips, but my skills are mostly Adept 1, the ones that aren't are App 3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had no issues at level 21 - I believe its later that the zerkers get the skills that are causing this phenomenon.  I have no issues with any other class, including classes that do far more dps than the zerker and are higher level then both me and him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As mentioned above, I have tried all buffs, I have burned every power, every taunt....everything, while the zerker is sitting at 80% power, and still no effect.  You will not believe it until you see it....I did not either until it started happening to me</DIV>

[Taurcl]

<DIV>I would have to agree with the people who state that we have only begun to get our guardian tools.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Once I grouped with a zerk that was 1 level higher than me, he and I were only damage dealers in the group (us and 2 healers). I could hold agro from him if I really tried... but on occasion he would take it from me if I slacked off the taunts. You have to put the hammer down but i still think its possible to out agro zerk despite this apparent extra agro from bloodlust. They might get it on occasion though... Id expect it to be a little easier with more of our tools. I have since got a few new tricks without the chance to try them with a zerk in group.</DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>I think the inability for defensive skills/buffs to stack could be a significant issue - Soldier's Stance, Hunker Down, for example, don't stack with any of the group buffs.  As a result, HD adds almost nothing, despite costing you offensive during its duration.  Soldier's Stance and the group buffs don't stack, and usually it isn't important to spread the defence around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The protection line appears pretty weak - either slow to cast or unnecessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians seem to have a number of abilities which add very little to the core of their archtype.</DIV>

[Mithru]

25 Berserker here. I ask only one thing of Guardians. Don't ask or expect Berserkers to [Removed for Content] themselves in exchange for some modest advantage the Guardian may have in AC/HP. I'm not referring to any inherent advantage, but those that arise as a product of gear and levels. I've heard Guardians complain about Berserkers going into Zerker mode and stealing agro from them and I've heard it explained as bluntly as "Berserkers shouldn't be going Berserk when tanking and they steal agro too much to go Berserk when not tanking." The implication being that Berserkers should never bother going Berserk. What's the name of the class again? Now, if the Zerker can't handle the beating he'll get from taking agro and only that Guardian has the AC/HP to handle it, then obviously, the Berseker had better do whatever it takes to keep things under control. However, if he CAN take the beating, then it makes no sense to work forward from the default position that a Guardian in your group must be the the tank at all costs. If you have one person who can both tank AND hold agro and another who can also tank but can NOT hold agro, it's pretty clear which one should be tanking for your group, even if it contradicts our preconceived ideas about class roles and abilities.BTW, I would venture a guess that the buff aspect of the Berserker mode is what is responsible for the agro it produces. When Bloodlust is up, you are CONSTANTLY going Berserk and therefore buffing yourself over and over again. Berserker state lasts 10 seconds but you continue to "rebuff" yourself after only 1 or 2 seconds. It's like a machine gun self buff.<p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 AM</span>

[Za]

<DIV>I totally agree Mithrull - why should the zerker have to [Removed for Content] himself because the guardian can't maintain aggro over bloodlust - assuming the zerker can tank nearly as well (which they can given similar gear / levels -- as posted on other threads they have access to the same gear, and the Guardian only gets 1 extra stamina per level bonus, this is not significant)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*** This is exactly the problem!! ***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We give up dps to do what?  Our dps and taunt is no match for the zerker, and we have an insignificant advange in hp / ac (originally we were supposed to get an advantage through a higher class of armor called vanguard...but they merged that into heavy armor which zerkers can wear)</DIV> <DIV>Why be a guardian at all?</DIV>

[Za]

<DIV>Get a few more levels EE27FCAH5DNK7BW46RHG and then you'll see what's happening.  As I stated in my post this was not an issue at level 20</DIV>

[Rie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zamz wrote:<BR> <DIV>I totally agree Mithrull - why should the zerker have to [Removed for Content] himself because the guardian can't maintain aggro over bloodlust - assuming the zerker can tank nearly as well (which they can given similar gear / levels -- as posted on other threads they have access to the same gear, and the Guardian only gets 1 extra stamina per level bonus, this is not significant)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*** This is exactly the problem!! ***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We give up dps to do what?  Our dps and taunt is no match for the zerker, and we have an insignificant advange in hp / ac (originally we were supposed to get an advantage through a higher class of armor called vanguard...but they merged that into heavy armor which zerkers can wear)</DIV> <DIV>Why be a guardian at all?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First off, a Zerker with equal gear does NOT tank equally. Ask any cleric who takes more mana to keep up and they will tell you that the Zerker does. Myself and a fellow guild mate are within one lvl of each other in the mid - upper 20's with a full suit of 20+ quest armor for both of us, and he in no way can tank as well as I can. Also, as long as HE plays correctly, I can keep argo off of him. I have no issues holding argo as long as I do my job and all the other party members do theirs. It is similar to wizards, if they start off unloading before the tank gets a good argo lead, they are going to get argo NO MATTER WHAT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no need to change either class (at least not for this arguement) IMHO. You just have to have all members know how to play their class. Argo control does not fall solely on the tank, it is a group effort. Play smart, live smart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: I can keep this argo off everyone without using Hold the Line, it is just an emergency requirement when things go wrong.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rielz on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:11 AM</span>

[Za]

<DIV>Can you post both character's names Rielz so we can compare their profiles?  Since gear is not class restricted and a zerker can wear heavy armor they can wear the exact same set of gear - the only advantage you're going to have is 1 sta per level.  They have all the same defensive skills and I would argue that if a zerker is using the same gear and has same defensive buffs on as you do (ie using soldier's stance etc) that they will tank the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pls post the names so we can compare profiles.</DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>Bloochinator, you are just plain wrong. In the 20-30 range it is easy for a Berserker to set them self up as a tank. If the do the same things a Guardian does when kitting out there really isnt much difference at all, i.e. concentrate on Agility/Stamina/HP/AC armour/jewelry, grab the best shield they can and use taunts plus their high taunt zerker attacks to maintain agro. Their HP/AC will be pretty much identical to what a Guardian can achieve, they have sufficient buff to cap out their Parry/Defence so there is no real difference between a Berserker's and Guardian's ability to tank if they want to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to that the fact that even with a defensive kit setup the Berserker will do more damage and generate more hate than a Guardian in a defensive kit setup, it is crystal clear that in the 20-30 range there is clearly an imbalance between the two subclasses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have Adept 1 or higher on all my taunts, my gear selection is purely based on what helps me tank better and even with taunt/buff spamming to raise hate as much as I can it is a piece of [Removed for Content] for a reasonably skilled wizzie, assassin, brigand or berserker to take agro from one of the mobs I am tanking if they want. Berserkers are the only ones able to take agro off of me if all the group is assisting on one target at a time, thus allowing my to concentrate my taunting. I just hope that come 31+ there is a noticable difference between Guardian and Berserker when it comes to tanking.</DIV>

[Rie]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zamz wrote: <DIV>Can you post both character's names Rielz so we can compare their profiles?  Since gear is not class restricted and a zerker can wear heavy armor they can wear the exact same set of gear - the only advantage you're going to have is 1 sta per level.  They have all the same defensive skills and I would argue that if a zerker is using the same gear and has same defensive buffs on as you do (ie using soldier's stance etc) that they will tank the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pls post the names so we can compare profiles.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Mine: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=108276102" target=_blank>Warheft</A></DIV> <DIV>Zerker: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=104930102" target=_blank>Nalazar</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Shilak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bloochinator, you are just plain wrong. In the 20-30 range it is easy for a Berserker to set them self up as a tank. If the do the same things a Guardian does when kitting out there really isnt much difference at all, i.e. concentrate on Agility/Stamina/HP/AC armour/jewelry, grab the best shield they can and use taunts plus their high taunt zerker attacks to maintain agro. Their HP/AC will be pretty much identical to what a Guardian can achieve, they have sufficient buff to cap out their Parry/Defence so there is no real difference between a Berserker's and Guardian's ability to tank if they want to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to that the fact that even with a defensive kit setup the Berserker will do more damage and generate more hate than a Guardian in a defensive kit setup, it is crystal clear that in the 20-30 range there is clearly an imbalance between the two subclasses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have Adept 1 or higher on all my taunts, my gear selection is purely based on what helps me tank better and even with taunt/buff spamming to raise hate as much as I can it is a piece of [Removed for Content] for a reasonably skilled wizzie, assassin, brigand or berserker to take agro from one of the mobs I am tanking if they want. Berserkers are the only ones able to take agro off of me if all the group is assisting on one target at a time, thus allowing my to concentrate my taunting. I just hope that come 31+ there is a noticable difference between Guardian and Berserker when it comes to tanking.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If the Zerker chooses to build himself that way he will in fact have a very similar AC/HP, but they will not have all the skills that a Guardian gets. They also will not be fullfilling their damage output role. Are you saying that cleric is broken also because they can wear the same armor and get far superior AC/HP buffs? It is a matter of how the character is built. Any zerker that understands what he class is suppose to do will not choose to be the 'tank' unless they have to. It is far better for them to be a dps. And going through the 20+ levels, Guardians get more tools for keeping argo where the Zerker only has his warrior taunts and damage output to keep argo. IMHO, the other classes have to deal with the people in the same tree as them (Templar and Inquisitor) having very similar capabilities, what makes us different?</FONT></DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Rielz wrote:</P> <DIV>Mine: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=108276102" target=_blank>Warheft</A></DIV> <DIV>Zerker: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=104930102" target=_blank>Nalazar</A></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If the Berserker swapped the duel wield weapons for the same sword/shield combo that the Guardian is wearing then the AC would be almost identical. Running Soldiers Stance would cap out the parry/defence on both characters, so where is the difference between the two when it comes to defence? A few hit points, thats it, yet the Berserker will still do significantly more damage than the Guardian with the same weapon, as well as generating more hate because the 20-26 skills on Berserker generate more hate than the 20-26 skills on the Guardian.</DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rielz wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>If the Zerker chooses to build himself that way he will in fact have a very similar AC/HP, but they will not have all the skills that a Guardian gets. They also will not be fullfilling their damage output role. Are you saying that cleric is broken also because they can wear the same armor and get far superior AC/HP buffs? It is a matter of how the character is built. Any zerker that understands what he class is suppose to do will not choose to be the 'tank' unless they have to. It is far better for them to be a dps. And going through the 20+ levels, Guardians get more tools for keeping argo where the Zerker only has his warrior taunts and damage output to keep argo. IMHO, the other classes have to deal with the people in the same tree as them (Templar and Inquisitor) having very similar capabilities, what makes us different?</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What I am simply pointing out is that a Berserker built for the defensive tank role actually makes a better defensive tank than a Guardian built for the same role.</DIV> <DIV>Likewise a Berserker built for a DPS role actually makes a better DPS machine than a Guardian build for the same role.</DIV> <DIV>Therefore what is the point in being a Guardian if a Berserker surpasses them in all areas where they might be used?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar and Inquisitor are aimed at fulfilling the same job, they are just good/evil flavors of cleric. Berserker/Guardian is a different thing completely, Berserker is the offensive solution to the warrior class (i.e. kill it quick) and Guardian is the defensive solution to the warrior class (i.e. soak up the damage while your mates kill it).</DIV>

[Bloochinat]

<DIV> <P align=left><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffffff>Look at these two lists and tell me a Guardian isnt better suited to tank, take taunt and aggro, and GUARD and protect his group.</FONT></FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT size=3>This arguement is silly. I group with Guardians quite often. Swashbuckler puts his aggro enhancer on the Guardian. Guardian has more AC, and HP than me by far. I am there for DPS, and secondary aggro when a mob runs to the over nuking wizard.</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT size=3>Now, can a Berserker grab aggro from a Guardian. Sure, if the Guardian isnt doing everything in his power to keep aggro. But hell, so can an assassin, or Wizzie.</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT size=3>90% of Berserkers abilties are offense minded, while 90% of Guardians are defensive / aggro minded. Even if a Berseker went 1 hander and sheild down the line he still wouldnt come close to the crowd control / aggro control / defensive capabilties of a Guardian. If I go Berserk, my defense goes down. POOF I am a mana sponge.</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT size=3>And besides. They built this game so that in the future the level cap will be 200. Don't you think its a little premature to talk about how "imbalanced" the classes are right now?</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3><B></B></FONT> </P> <P align=left><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3><B></B></FONT> </P> <P align=left><FONT face=Garamond color=#cc3300 size=3><B>Berserker</B></FONT></P> <P align=left>20 - Focus Rage : Go Berserk (Attack speed and strength buff for reduced defense)<BR>20 - Fury of Fire : Fire visual effect<BR>21 - Blood Rage : Each attack may trigger an AE attack, costs health to cast<BR>21.6 - Furious Onslaught : AE attack + chance to Berserk<BR>22 - Fury : Chance to attack back when hit<BR>22.6 - Enrage : Taunt + chance to Berserk<BR>23 - Bloodlust : Group offense buff + chance to berserk if anyone in group is hit<BR>23 - Sunder : Taunt + AE knockdown<BR>24 - Battle Chant : Party STR buff<BR>24.6 - Raging Strike : Chance to Berserk with each attack but does less damage<BR>25 - Rescue : Increase hate position by 1<BR>25.6 - Maul : Attack which also lowers target's defense + stun<BR>26 - Stifled Rage : Increases AC but reduces attack<BR>26.6 - Havoc : Group AC + STR buff<BR>27 - Press : Shield bash + offense debuff on target<BR>28 - Berserker Barrage : Front/Side AE attack<BR>28.6 - Vicious Blow : Slashing Dot + chance to Berserk<BR>29 - Coup de Grace : Attack that makes you Berserk when enemy killed<BR>30 - Weapon Shield : Parry skill  buff<BR>30.6 - Reckless Stance : Increases defense but reduces offense<BR>31 - Mad Cry : Taunt + stun<BR>31.6 - Furious Rush : Power DoT + Stun<BR>32 - Stunning Cry : AE stun<BR>32.6 - Infuriation : Shield a party memeber from attack + chance to Berserk<BR>33 - Stomp : AE attack<BR>33.6 - Screaming Fury : HP + attack speed buff<BR>34 - Rage : Go Berserk<BR>35 - Whirlwind : AE attack + knockback<BR>36.6 - Greater Fury : Chance to attack back when hit<BR>37 - Tides of War : Group offense buff + Self attack speed buff<BR>38 - Violent Promise : Attack with chance to berserk<BR>38.6 - War Chant : Party STR buff<BR>39 - Relentless Battering : Attack which reduces target offence and AC + stuns<BR>40 - Anarchy : Group AC and STR buff + each attack has chance for an extra attack<BR>40 - Form of the Furious Bear : Bear Form<BR>40 - Vanquish : High damage medium duration stunning attack<BR>40.8 - Controlled Rage : Increases defense but reduces offense<BR>41 - Raging Blows : Medium damage attack which also stuns<BR>42 - Mutilate : High damage slashing DoT, chance to berserk each tick<BR>42.6 - Berserker Assualt : Front/Side AE attack<BR>43 - Rupture : Attack with additional slashing DoT<BR>44 - Frenzy : Attack 3 times, one miss = all further attacks miss<BR>44.4 - Unflinching Will : Sacrifice offense for defense + mental resist<BR>44.8 - Weapon Guard : Parry buff<BR>45 - Bully : Taunt + Mental DoT + Stun<BR>45.6 - No Quarter : Power DoT + stun + chance to berserk<BR>46 - Vehemence : Shield a party member from attack, chance for them to berserk<BR>46.6 - Stunning Roar : AE stun<BR>47 - Destructive Rage : HP + Attack speed buff, go berserk when finished<BR>47 - Wallop : High damage attack that can hit multiple enemies<BR>48 - Fury : Chance to go Berserk when taking damage<BR>49 - Slaughter : High damage AE attack<BR>50 - Berserker's Fury : Flame visual effect<BR>50 - Fearsome Shout : Taunt + Encounter Fear chance<BR>50 - Furious Counter : Attack back every time you are hit<BR>50 - Rampage : Attack all enemies in melee radius every time you hit one</P> <P align=left> </P> <P align=left><FONT size=3><B><A target=_blank></A><FONT face=Garamond color=#cc3300>Guardian</FONT></B></FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT size=2>20 - Sentinel : Sometimes absorb all damage a single party member would take<BR>20 - Hand of the Just : Glowing hand visual effect<BR>21 - Allay : Allow the Guardian to block and parry sometimes for a party member<BR>21.6 - Bury : AE attack which also puts a crushing DoT on one of them<BR>22 - Slam : High damage attack<BR>22.6 - Shouting Cry : Taunt + AE damage debuff<BR>23 - Guardian’s Call : Group offense buff + Guardian parry buff<BR>24 - Call of Command : Group defense buff<BR>24.6 - Taunting Challenge : Reduces damage + increased hate generation<BR>25 - True Strike : Attack which ignores enemy AC<BR>25.6 - Ruin : Attack + offense debuff + slashing DoT<BR>26.6 - Battle Cry : Group AC + STA buff<BR>27 - Bull Rush : Stun + knockdown target (Requires shield)<BR>28 - Iron Will : STA buff<BR>28.6 - Maim : Slashing DoT + attack speed debuff<BR>29 - Shatter : Attack + Slashing resist debuff<BR>30 - Desperate Flurry : Attack speed buff while draining power<BR>30.6 - Dig In : Decreases offense and slows movement but increases defense and mitigation<BR>31 - Suppress : Taunt + attack speed debuff<BR>31.6 - Batter : Power DoT + chance to stifle target<BR>32 - Entrench : Slows enemy attack speed and movement but increases its defence<BR>32.6 - Never Surrender : Shield part member from attacks + parry buff<BR>33.6 - Do Or Die : HP + defense buff<BR>34 - Safeguard : Upgrade to Sentinel<BR>35 - Topple : AE attack + AE attack debuff<BR>36 - Crush : High damage attack<BR>36 - Smothering Cry : Taunt + AE stifle<BR>37 - Call to Battle : Group offense buff + Self defense buff<BR>38 - Vengeful Strike : Reduces damage but increases STA and hate generation<BR>38.6 - Call of Protection : Group AC buff<BR>39 - Ferocious Charge : Attack which lowers enemy defense + Slashing DoT + chance to stifle<BR>40 - Form of the Rook : Rook Form<BR>40 - Retaliate : High damage attack<BR>40.4 - Commanding Presence : Group AC + HP + STA buff<BR>40.8 - Unerring Strike : Attack which ignores armour class<BR>41 - Staggering Slam : Stun + damage debuff (requires shield)<BR>42 - Cleave : Slashing DoT, attack Speed debuff and Power damage<BR>42.6 - Iron Conviction : STA buff<BR>43 - Overwhelm : High damage attack<BR>44 - Taunting Assault : AE taunt + damage<BR>44.4 - Fortified Stance : Reduced Offense for Increased Defence and Crushing resist<BR>44.8 - Desperate Rush : Upgrade to Desperate Flurry<BR>45 - Deafen : Taunt + Attack speed debuff + Power damage<BR>45.6 - Vindication : Power damage over time + chance to stifle + mental buff<BR>46 - Vigilance : Shield party member from attacks + chance to intervene<BR>46.6 - Anchor : Attack speed + movement debuff but increases enemy AC<BR>47 - Return to Battle : HP + defense buff, grants STR buff when ends<BR>47 - Swamp : Medium damage attack + offense debuff<BR>48.6 - Sentry : Upgrade to Safeguard<BR>49 - Tremor : AE attack + stun + offense debuff<BR>50 - Blast : High damage attack<BR>50 - Guardian Sphere : Sometimes absorb damage dealt to the party<BR>50 - Guardian’s Sanctuary : Glowing visual effect<BR>50 - Protect : AE taunt</FONT></P></DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"If the Zerker chooses to build himself that way he will in fact have a very similar AC/HP, but they will not have all the skills that a Guardian gets."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All those skills that most of us Guardians admit to never using?</DIV>

[Za]

<DIV>You nailed the issue exactly EQ2Shilak!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By manipulating gear a berzerker can surpass the guardian as both a 'tank and guardian of the group (through unshakeable aggro)' and as dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guardian can not do this - they don't have the skills to allow that kind of flexibility, they can never generate the kind of dps a zerker can -- that's a given which we accepted when we chose guardian.  At this point in the game the guardian's special skills and buffs do not add enough to their class to surpass a zerker who chooses to focus on defense in order to tank.  (see stacking issues and comments on this board about our 'guardian' buffs) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a clear imbalance - the very definition of balance requires that a class who specializes in dps or is higher in dps than another class must be worse at something else.  You must give up something to gain something -- otherwise the 'scales' tip and you are not balanced.</DIV> <DIV>Class descriptions published by sony cleary state a dps vs. tank view towards balancing...back to the offensive tank vs. the defensive tank</DIV> <DIV>We give up dps, what are we given....again I say why be a guardian and give up dps if a zerker can better guard a group by having superior control over where the damage is directed (ie at himself instead of the cleric or mage)</DIV>

[Rie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zamz wrote:<BR> <DIV>You nailed the issue exactly EQ2Shilak!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By manipulating gear a berzerker can surpass the guardian as both a 'tank and guardian of the group (through unshakeable aggro)' and as dps.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guardian can not do this - they don't have the skills to allow that kind of flexibility, they can never generate the kind of dps a zerker can -- that's a given which we accepted when we chose guardian.  At this point in the game the guardian's special skills and buffs do not add enough to their class to surpass a zerker who chooses to focus on defense in order to tank.  (see stacking issues and comments on this board about our 'guardian' buffs) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a clear imbalance - the very definition of balance requires that a class who specializes in dps or is higher in dps than another class must be worse at something else.  You must give up something to gain something -- otherwise the 'scales' tip and you are not balanced.</DIV> <DIV>Class descriptions published by sony cleary state a dps vs. tank view towards balancing...back to the offensive tank vs. the defensive tank</DIV> <DIV>We give up dps, what are we given....again I say why be a guardian and give up dps if a zerker can better guard a group by having superior control over where the damage is directed (ie at himself instead of the cleric or mage)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This may be true on a single mob pull, but a Zerker falls short when it comes to mutiple mobs. They get their warrior shout, that is all. A Guardian continues to get things that help him to control argo and keep other members alive. Yes, at lvl 20 a zerker can build himself to be better as a tank. At lvl 30? I do not believe so, but shall see for sure in a just a couple levels.<BR>

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>My group buffs actually seem to generate a lot more hate than my Shouting Cry did, hence why I opened fights with a combo of taunts and group buffs to ramp up my hate. But the devs appear to agree that the hate generated by taunts was to low as they have upped it in today's patch, hopefully now the Guardians taunts will allow them to generate more agro than a Berserker, thus allowing Guardians to tank as intended and Berserkers to hack thing up as intended.</DIV>

[Mithru]

<blockquote><hr>Rielz wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Zamz wrote: <DIV>Can you post both character's names Rielz so we can compare their profiles? Since gear is not class restricted and a zerker can wear heavy armor they can wear the exact same set of gear - the only advantage you're going to have is 1 sta per level. They have all the same defensive skills and I would argue that if a zerker is using the same gear and has same defensive buffs on as you do (ie using soldier's stance etc) that they will tank the same.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Pls post the names so we can compare profiles.</DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Mine: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=108276102" target=_blank>Warheft</A></DIV><DIV>Zerker: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=104930102" target=_blank>Nalazar</A></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Well you've got almost 200 more AC with those setups, right?<p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>They addressed the agro from Taunts in the latest patch.. this was may only concern that even remotely revolved around a Zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkers are plate wearers.. they tank .. just not as well as a defensive tank.  The trade off is offense for a little less defense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as groups can decided when 2 tanks are in them which wants to become Main Tank I do not have an issue with the mechanic.  My issue with how this was working post 25 was that the Zerker had to be MT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkers are fine the way they are.</DIV>

[Shady]

<DIV>Get your facts straight before posting man, the reason ANY tank class has a hard time keeping agro from a zerker is because you are playing poorly.  If your taking aggro from a tank constantly taunting, YOU are the problem, not the tank.  I do not loose aggro from most scouts, just berzerkers which shows you that something is either wrong with this class, or it was really meant to be that way.  I have some berzerkers in my guild that never take my aggro, because they don't spam blood rage and the other berzerker abilities until they get aggro.  Some zerkers I group with appear as if they enter a group with a death wish, although some are slackers.  IMHO to be that perfect zerker you gotta cooperate with the tanks abilities in your group, and stay inbetween the Spammer and the Slacker, that is the standard.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But how I hold aggro from a zerker, I anger, and shouting cry if i need to, and I pretty much get it, if I don't I trigger a group buff which definately takes it away.  If it's more than 2 mobs, I use Hold the Line.  I realise Zerkers have this skill as well, but if they are using it, that zerker playing VERY poorly and needs to rechoose his class if he isn't the MT.  I currently have HTL Adept 1 and when I use it, I never loose aggro, it can be a group of 6 mobs with 3 wizzys AoEing the crap out of em, and they will still face me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What it all comes down to between these classes and maintaining agro is a well balanced group and people who know their classes and roles in a group.  No one wants to group with someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and don't let the famous "My friend was playing" excuse work on you!  Although I do play with alot of old EQ1 friends, I still do alot and enjoy pick up groups and meeting new people.  Every once and a while I get a group that just isn't worth the dept or my time, and I disband simple as that.  That's a guardians perspective. (Mine)</DIV><p>Message Edited by ShadyzZ on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 PM</span>

[Belce]

<DIV>The fact that zerkers can get agro is not a bad thing in a group with a guardian, its just bad when they get agro from the guardian.  To do so a zerker has to drop their pants and get spanked compared to what would happen to the guardian.  The difference between guardian and zerker is that no guardian skill causes a reduction in personal defense and all zerker skills to get agro drop defense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They can tank well, but only a guardian tanks better, gets better with their skills.  Zerker skills mean tanking more poorly. </DIV>

[Tristor]

<DIV>Both are tanks but the simple fact os a guardian is what his name is , look at your skills, you Guard. is it really that hard to understand? You want to be a good guardian then use your guard skills for what they were meant to be used for.</DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

^ wow that has nothing to do with the issue whatsoever. LOL

[DenverJay]

<DIV>If you want a simple fact, here's one for you.  No one has ANY hard data that a zerker being protected by a guardian is a better combo than the guardian taking all the damage themselves.  We may never have any hard data that supports that theory.  So for now, at this moment, zerkers can get agro if they want to.  Big deal.  My opinion is that it won't always be that way.  And if I'm in a group with a zerker, which will very rarely happen, that insists on keeping agro all the time, then whines that I should be protecting them, I'll either dump the group, or if it's my group, I'll dump the zerker.  Simple fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mack</DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>It basically comes down to, do you want the class that gives up some dps for better defense to have agro, or do you want the class that gives up some defense to generate some more dps to get agro?  You can't look at in isolation, you have to realize that the priest is healing the extra damage taken and is the caster going to actually cast fewer spells for bigger dps anyways.  </DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

Its simply annoying as hell to group with a zerker most of the time now. I just don't even bother. They might be great tanks but I'm better and if we already have a Gaurdian then get a true dps and not some aggroing idiot who is going to OOP the healer constantly. Oh and NO I have never seen a zerker tank like a guardian, all I see is zerkers draining healer mana like a scout would if they were tanking.

[Om]

I agree, people need to stop complaining about sucking at tanking (w t f?) and PMSing about not being able to find a grp as if there was a slot for a guard reserved in every grp.

[Glanor]

I typed this post a lot of times over. Basically though, here's the thing. I am berzerker (22). The only problem is with bloodlust. It needs to be fixed because the hate generation is stupid. For one, it's clearly imbalanced. For two, I've tanked in all my parties, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that I don't want to be berzerk when I am getting hit. The hate generation needs to be nerfed so that when I do party as an off tank, I can actually be vaguely useful in that role.

[Azad]

<DIV>I was just comparing the stats of the two toons whose profiles were presented here, did anyone happen to notice how much difference there was in the resistances between the two? The guardian has much better resistances. This plays a part in your tanking ability as well. Zerkers are power drains on healers, I would venture to guess that Guardians are not......also as has been stated several times all the warrior classes can tank they just tank differently. The berserkers that steal aggro away from the guardians need to control their aggro better which can be done and the guardians need to be a little more aggressive when berserkers are around, no need for either to be drasticly changed, just fine tuned IMO.</DIV>

[Glanor]

Compare the gear, they aren't even close to being equally equipped. The berzerker is still wearing [Removed for Content] jewelry and using [Removed for Content] weapons, the guardian is not. That's why there is a discrepancy, class has little to do with it.

[Sunrid]

<DIV> <DIV>Wow.  It surprises me how many guardians want to be the <STRONG>ONLY</STRONG> tank.  Where would the balance be in that.  If Guardians had guardian only armor and had the best AC what would happen to the other tank classes???.  What would happen to SK, Paladins, Berzerkers?  You think they would be able to find groups?  If that was to happen, might as well call this game EQ1 not EQ2.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really think about it Zerks and Guardians are balanced.  </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are <STRONG>better at taking damage </STRONG>than a Zerk and are more defensive , but are weaker in keeping agro.</DIV> <DIV>Zerkers <STRONG>have super agro </STRONG>and more offense, but take more damage than a guardian.  </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Can people not see the balance in that?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>If they gave Guardians superior agro and superior defense what use would the other tank classes be?</DIV> <DIV>Wouldn't it be unfair if Guardians had better agro than a Zerker?  Why would people want a zerker then?  For DPS?  LOL Zerkers are not DPS they <STRONG>do not </STRONG>dish out damage like monks, assassins, etc.</DIV></DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>Ohhhhh... nice.  3rd thread the exact same cut and paste.  Not only LAME, but still WRONG Sun.  HOW are we better at taking damage again!?!</DIV>