Why are guardians so bad?

[Ellind]

<DIV>EDIT - *done the research and seen the light... we have absolutely ZERO defining characteristics... period*</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ellindar on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[DragonNin]

<DIV>Well most people thought (including myself) that we were an actual "Tank" not a Body guard for one person. I'm glad you like buffing other people while they TANK *AND* do great DPS. Personally though I would never invite you to a group though. Not you personally, I mean the guardian class altogether. Why would anyone want you in there group.  Your damage output is pathetic, you do nothing but cast some defensive buffs on a another tank, and you are taking up a spot for a real class like a extra shaman or druid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No one imagined that this class would turn into a life tank while we just sit on the side lines and watch other classes TANK AND DO DAMAGE! I'm sure you're having fun now but, do you think you will still be happy just smashing your defensive buff on somone else tanking while you hit with crap dmg? I don't know about you but I would be pretty bored. </DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>EDIT - No improvement in late game either, high level guards and berzerks have spoken, and as of right now there is absolutely no reason to play a guardian class.  Unless the devs wake up and give us our own armor set or abilities that actually make us tank better.  Period.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ellindar on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span>

[DragonNin]

<DIV>^ Nice post. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I think everyone here hopes that the guardian class will become what you say in later levels, a real tank. It is bothering though to many that we will just become nothing more than a life tank, here to cast defensive buffs while we watch others take the hits AND dish out the damage.  I know it's too early to tell yet but, it is hard to dump alot of time and effort (hey its fun too! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and not get what you expected out of this class..... A Real Tank..... </DIV>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>The issue is not with Guardians.. the issue is with Taunts and the debuffs attached to them.  Guardians use taunts to attract mobs.. Hate generated from other sources at this time is so much greater than taunts and guardian buffs that you are starting to hear an outcry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is nothing wrong with Guardians.. there is an issue with Taunts.</DIV>

[Sebekiz]

<DIV>I don't have any problems at all holding aggro as a 19 Warrior (I know, I'm about 30% exp percent from becoming a guardian).  If I decide I want aggro, there isn't anyone who has yet been able to take it from me, even if they are a couple levels higher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, I haven't grouped with a Bererker yet, but I figure if they are dumb enough to take aggro when they haven't got the hit points and AC to survive as well as I do, they won't be grouped long before the experience debt is so high they either stop drawing aggro, or they get booted for someone who does damage and doesn't steal aggro.</DIV>

[Xter]

<DIV>Is this class really that hard for people to play?  At lvl 25, all I hear is how good of a tank I am, "the best tank I've ever grouped with" is not uncommen for me to hear.  Really, I'm not one to boost, but come on? I've grouped with every tank class there is and I never have a hard time keeping agro.  Our job is not damage output, even though, its really not that bad with the right wepon (Sword of thunder right now for me) and some of the damage output skills we have (like the DOT's, help keep agro too).  The main job is agro, and the ablity to take lower damage, and slower damage, so your healers have time to deal with it, or your druids/shammies arnt havint to recast regens and wards all the time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your a meet shild that needs to be taking all the hits, and absorbing them well.  GEAR is sooooo important.  If anything is a downside to Guards is they need to be spending so much time (quests) or money on gear. You should never have anything under white, and I usulay keep my gear at yellow or org at all times.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hardly use my "Guard" skills, they are more for an "Oh Sh*t" moment when something goes wrong and you cant get tuant fast.  Keep your protection buffs up, keep your increased damage buffs up (mainly for the rest of the group), and keep mashting those taunts.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, maybe its just a hard class to play and people just dont understand it?  Know your job and stick to it. Do everything you can to make it happen.  If your not doing a good job, or you dont like the class, pick something that suits your better or is easier to play.  The Gaurd is the core of the group. you have to be a leader, and a very good player.  Wana kick back and see big numbers or flashy lights when you hit keys, this is not the class for you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck! </DIV>

[BashoMats]

^ agree.So far i haven't seen anything tank half as well as i can. If i pull the mob NO ONE will get it off me, just look at my agro specialangertauntshouttaunting blow (**mods 4 teh win!!1!** slap)Then i have Mangle (a nice agro generator)wound (a very nice agro generator)plusCall to armsRallying cryetcOnce i have fired all of these off there is nothing anyone could do to pull that mob off me. I have been in a solid group hunting named orange^^ mobs in antonica and not once, even when i hunkered down, did i loose agro.I dont mind if a Zerk'er will be able to tank as well as myself. Good luck to him, but there is no way he will hold agro like i can or have the ac/hp i have.

[GenesisForgot]

Xterra said it perfectly.This class takes time to learn I suppose, but all I ever hear is **mods 4 teh win!!1!** Galad you know how to tank. I'm not being an **mods 4 teh win!!1!** or boasting but its just the truth. When I tank I don't lose aggro and I take hits much better than any other class. Its great to take down Yellow group ^^ mobs all day with a single druid and never tap his mana (no chanter either).Just get yourself the best gear possible - quest armor, good helm / pristine fasioned jewelry, shield, and a skullcrusher and learn your skills. Takes some time but if you have the right gear and know how to use your abilities you make the best possible tank in the game.. easily.

[Crus]

<DIV>Guardians are not bad. I have never had any trouble so far (lvl 22). Only time I loose aggro is if I or someone else do something wrong in the beginning of the fight. It can be a bit hard to keep aggro when pulling a large group(4+) of yellow cons, you tend to take alot of dmg fast from the intial special attacks and if a healer has to cast some huge heals in the beginning of battle you may loose aggro...  Try having the healer classes cast HoT or Ward on you before pull to avoid this problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If grouped with a zerker, which dooesn't happen often to me at least. Tell him to ease up on the dmg output the first 10 sec of the fight, or let him take aggro and use your guard skills. Nothing wrong with having different tactics in different group setups! Why should we always do the same thing in every group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians can take alot of dmg, more dmg than any other class. Hopefully the difference will be bigger the higher level we become. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember also that a group should be able to function with any type of tank. A zerker need to be as good as a guardian for the group, just in a different way. The difference for the group should be the tactics used to win the fights, not so much in overall performance.</DIV>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>Guys I hate to say it .. and really am not a bad person..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are under 20 your opinion on this matter is not really valuable to this discussion:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Level 21 is where this changes for the Zerker.</LI> <LI>Warden/Fury early 20s</LI> <LI>Level 22-23 for the Wizard</LI> <LI>Level 26-28 for the Rogues</LI></UL> <P>As to the comment about I will have more HPs and AC so they will fail...</P> <P>Why will you have more HPs?  If your in the group up until level 28ish you will have the same HPs practically as you can wear the same gear.</P> <UL> <LI>Zerkers gain +2 STA per level.</LI> <LI>Guardians gain +3 STA per level.</LI></UL> <P>1 pt of STA = 4 HPs.    Since you can wear the same gear and be the same race its all about the same....   </P> <P>As to AC this is a further falacy as Zerks can wear plate.</P> <P>I didn't start feeling my woes until I was into the guardian class.  Understand that I don't suck.. im not unhappy with my choice.. there is an issue with the upgrades to Taunts and how effective they are over a sustained fight.  There is also a problem with Plate classes and dmg mitigation.. these things are fixable and im sure they will be addressed.</P> <P>Oh and 1 edit - When you hit Runnyeye.. groups love the Plate Clad Shield fighters.. and shields notibility help... so don't dispair too much.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Fable_EQ2 on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 AM</span>

[Twizz]

<DIV>Well, it was stated long before gaem release that guardians wouldn't tank better then other fighter classes. When I looked at the skill lists it looked like guardians would get more skills to protect the group, so I figured that would be their main purpose of the class, and the thing that made them special. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issues of higher level spells not being good enough is on every single class board I've read, so this isn't a guardian issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess many picked the class asuming it would be like the EQLive warrior and I feel sorry for those people. I've seen guardians who think they are the only maintank and other that realize other fighters do the job jsut fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW: Not playing a guardian, not even a fighter, this is just from personal experiance. I don't say they are good or bad, just saying that some people might have missunderstood how classes are soposed to work. I see this in other places too, like the cleric/shaman/druid concerns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ArgosyAxeGrind]

<DIV>I think guardians are just fine at holding aggro and tanking. Again, I am a new guardian (20), but as others have said, I have yet to have anyone "out taunt" me (and that includes grouping with level 22/23 zerkers). It's all about using "all" of your assets and not focusing on DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Pull w/ a group buff or debuff (such as rallying cry)</LI> <LI>Use 1 or 2 taunts (such as Anger/taunting blow).</LI> <LI>Throw in some damage skills (Wound/Mangle)</LI> <LI>And then recycle the taunts (if needed).</LI></OL> <P>I still give the "edge" to Guardians when it comes to "tanking" because of 1 item: shields. A high level shield will provide an extra 150-300 AC (depending on item/level) that zerker will never have.</P>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>Well I'm a level 22 Gaurdian and I can say that Guardians seem fairly well off.  Generally when I have aggro, I HAVE aggro.  And nobody can really get it off me.  Learn to use "Hold the Line" regularly in multi mob encounters.  This ability generates tons of aggro and is reusable every few minutes.  It roots you and every succesful it generates hate for the entire encounter.  Or something along those lines.  When you fight easier 8-10 mob encounters you can see it proc'ing a ton.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue I do see is that it's sometimes very hard to pull aggro off the cleric or a beserker or the like, when they have aggro.  I've literally AE taunted an encounter 5 times and not pulled them off a cleric when he had aggro.  Same with pulling off a berserker who took aggro of an add, I used Anger 5 times and nothing (all I had power for).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats the only 1 thing that bugs me.  It seems hard as hell to pull aggro off others unless you have alot of power.  And the problem is that when it matters the most when the group is out of power and the cleric is getting his [Removed for Content] beat down and you can only taunt as your power comes.  And it takes forever to get aggro back.  This is what is bad.</DIV>

[Mig]

This going to happen every once in awhile. That's why they wear plate and carry shields.

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twizz wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issues of higher level spells not being good enough is on every single class board I've read, so this isn't a guardian issue.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is actually a major misconception on most of the boards I have read, most people seem to think that when they get a new skill it will actually be better than all previous versions that they have. The skills are not designed in this way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The skills are actually designed similar to the way the equipment is, i.e. they have a minimum skill level required to use them and a skill level required to master them. When you first recieve the new skill you only have the bare minimum skill required to use it, as you level up the skill improves until the point where you have mastered the skill, hence the reason why skills have a con level on them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, whats the point in playing a Guardian if they have lower DPS than the other fighter subclasses and cant tank any better?Guardian skills concentrate heavily on taunting and other skills to prevent fellow group members from taking damage. If another class can tank as well and generate more hate than we can with our taunts there is no point in being a Guardian, taunts are a major part of our skill list and therefore a major part of our purpose in a group. Guardians only get groups as a tank, our DPS isnt enough to get us into a group as a damage dealer like all the other fighter subclasses.</DIV>

[Xter]

<P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>Its s common problem for a company to overstate something for CR. It’s another for people to take what is said and twist a few words a bit to have a very different outcome.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>NOT ALL TANKS TANK THE SAME!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Not all healers HEAL the same.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What Sony was going after, (and did well I think) was make it so that any healer class “could” be the solo healer in a group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And they did that!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Now that doesn’t mean that group is going to be able to kill mobs as well, or as fast, or as safe as another group that might have a class that is more Healer focused (see Shammie vs Templar).<SPAN>  </SPAN>Please for your own sake, don’t think for a second that all the class types are just as good at the same thing.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <DIV><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Same goes with tanking.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, a paly or SK, or Zerker can be the MT. But all gear and lvl’s being equal, healers will have to react faster, will heal more, and with the exception to the Zerker, there could/will be more agro issues then if you had a Guard in the group. <SPAN> </SPAN>Templars are by far the best healers when it comes to flat out healing, and guards are the best tanks, when it comes to Meatsheild/taunt/ steady predicable HP/mana management. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT size=2>PS. I'm lvl 25 for someone that thinks you cant have an opiton until your lvl 20+  =/  This is also my 2nd time I've been a lvl 25 guard as I spent months in beta as well. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <P><FONT size=2><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></FONT> </P><p>Message Edited by Xterra on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[Twizz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xterra wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>Its s common problem for a company to overstate something for CR. It’s another for people to take what is said and twist a few words a bit to have a very different outcome.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>NOT ALL TANKS TANK THE SAME!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Not all healers HEAL the same.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What Sony was going after, (and did well I think) was make it so that any healer class “could” be the solo healer in a group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And they did that!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Now that doesn’t mean that group is going to be able to kill mobs as well, or as fast, or as safe as another group that might have a class that is more Healer focused (see Shammie vs Templar).<SPAN>  </SPAN>Please for your own sake, don’t think for a second that all the class types are just as good at the same thing.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <DIV><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Same goes with tanking.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, a paly or SK, or Zerker can be the MT. But all gear and lvl’s being equal, healers will have to react faster, will heal more, and with the exception to the Zerker, there could/will be more agro issues then if you had a Guard in the group. <SPAN> </SPAN>Templars are by far the best healers when it comes to flat out healing, and guards are the best tanks, when it comes to Meatsheild/taunt/ steady predicable HP/mana management. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT size=2>PS. I'm lvl 25 for someone that thinks you cant have an opiton until your lvl 20+  =/  This is also my 2nd time I've been a lvl 25 guard as I spent months in beta as well. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <P><FONT size=2><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P>Message Edited by Xterra on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:31 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok, they actually said, that all fighters would be able to tank, all healers would be able to main heal and so on. They would perform different in different situations. Sometimes a bruiser would be better, sometimes a guardian and so on. That's how I understood it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And now please show me the facts that makes templars better healers then druids/shamans? Either that is an assumption or I've missed something. If I look at the boards it seems like shamans are the most efficient right now, even though opinions differ alot from person to person. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've grouped with every fighter type now, even though I haven't seen them all Maintank. It's hard to tell but my best experiance is with some crusaders and berzerkers. Guardians are fine, I love their group oriented skills, I've just ended up grouping more with crusaders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>According to what I heard, things changed alot during the last week of beta, so it's really hard to tell how things are balanced on the healing side.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[shan]

i just want to add regarding our taunt abilities.. there are 2 situations when i loose agro ( i gain it after of course) 1) as i pull someone in the group casts a nasty agro generator spell like a bard song group buff or the like. 2) i am stunned and cant taunt. those who hunt gobs in RE know what am talking about. of course if the stun hapen early on i have a chance to loose agro. and i kid you not at times am stunned for a whole minute.

[Reol]

<DIV>The term "Better" I feel is being used inaccurately, Better doesn't mean what it did in EQ, where a Cleric was  the best healer, the shaman ok and the druid not bad, the cleric, shaman, and druid all heal along the same lines, they just do it in different fashions, they buff there grps with different buffs, and they help prevent damage in different manners. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think everyone is still stuck on better as meaning the guardian is the best tank....well no there not the zerker and guardian are the best main tanks, but the shadow knight can fill in in a pinch, they just go about doing there stuff differently. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, we have to start looking at classes in a different light and forget about the paranoia of worrying about being the best, we all are great at what we do, each of us has as SOE wrote our strengths and weakness.</DIV>

[Twizz]

<DIV>I completely agree with you. The word "Best" is very situational. I personally don't want to be the best in all situations. Also EQ2 seem to be more dependent on player skill then EQLive was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even in EQLive this was taken a bit to far by players. Anyone heard "This is impossible without a cleric/warrior"?  I heard that about lots of things me and my friend did daily. And we did it without a cleric and without real DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope this won't happen in EQ2 but I see things that makes me worried on the boards...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Crus]

<DIV>I agree Reolas, very well said. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>I completely disagree with Reolas... it's not at ALL about being the best.  It's about having OUR OWN DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC.  Which we do NOT have.  We can't wear better armor, we don't have better defense, we don't have better taunts... we have zero.  So if what you're saying about everyone being so **mods 4 teh win!!1!** equal and it works, then riddle me this batman... why don't we do just as much damage so that we're so freaking equal?  Exactly.  We're NOT equal.  They do the damage, and we are supposed to do the defense.  But we CAN'T.  Not any better defense then them anyways.  So here it is in lamens terms for those who just don't GET THIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Bezerkers and Guardians can have the same defense, ac, gear, taunts, etc. EVERYTHING the same... the *only* difference there is between the two classes is that bezerkers can deal out about 10 times the damage a guardian can dish out.  So you please TELL ME where the benefit is in being a GUARDIAN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God... NOW I know why people were so frustrated with me when I couldn't catch on to this.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ellindar on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 AM</span>

[Ellind]

<DIV>Double post</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ellindar on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[Dashel]

<blockquote><hr>Ellindar wrote:<DIV></div><DIV></div><DIV>EDIT - *done the research and seen the light... we have absolutely ZERO defining characteristics... period*</div><p>Message Edited by Ellindar on <span class=date_text>12-05-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Speaking from the Berserker perspective, THIS is a valid argument. If you all can come up with specific skills you feel are useless or need tweaking then that’s fine. However the cries of Berserkers being imbalanced, asking for virtual nerfs to Zerks (i.e. remove Vanguard, remove shields, lower HP/AC for Zerks)will only lose you support.The problems right now as I see are twofold. One, Zerker agro seems [Removed for Content] especially with Bloodlust up. Bloodlust causes crazy agro even if we dont want it. Second is that Zerks get useful (but hardly overpowering) DPS skills in addition to the defensive skills. Guardians seem to feel their skills are not that great. I don't play a Guard so I'll take your words for it.So lets set the proper tone here. Fix Bloodlust agro and fix whatever specific spells you folks would like to see changed.

[Ellind]

<DIV>I answered your other post on this, and to be clear I never asked for shields to taken away or for any of your dps to nerfed etc.  The vanguard being taken away or giving us guardian armor however imo is a very valid argument.  The ability for us to have better AC or some type of AC buff abilities is what is needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You asked about our skills.. and maybe that is instead how it should be handled.  Our current guardian skills supposed just start taking damage away from a person who is getting beat on, but no one in their right minds uses this.  As we should be taunting and raising our *defense* somehow.  That's what our abilities should be focues on i'm imagining in most peoples opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sacrifice offense for defense was *always* my understanding of a guardian.  It's just not there right now.  </DIV>

[Twizz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellindar wrote:<BR> <DIV>I completely disagree with Reolas... it's not at ALL about being the best.  It's about having OUR OWN DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC.  Which we do NOT have.  We can't wear better armor, we don't have better defense, we don't have better taunts... we have zero.  So if what you're saying about everyone being so **mods 4 teh win!!1!** equal and it works, then riddle me this batman... why don't we do just as much damage so that we're so freaking equal?  Exactly.  We're NOT equal.  They do the damage, and we are supposed to do the defense.  But we CAN'T.  Not any better defense then them anyways.  So here it is in lamens terms for those who just don't GET THIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Bezerkers and Guardians can have the same defense, ac, gear, taunts, etc. EVERYTHING the same... the *only* difference there is between the two classes is that bezerkers can deal out about 10 times the damage a guardian can dish out.  So you please TELL ME where the benefit is in being a GUARDIAN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>God... NOW I know why people were so frustrated with me when I couldn't catch on to this.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ellindar on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:36 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm not sure but thought guardians got the best abilities to absorbe damage from other group members. I thought that was what would make them special since all fighters ware soposed to be able to tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If other classes get these abilities as well, then maybe something is wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whatever, your class defining skills should not be to be the best tank in all situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I talked to a 25 guardian yesterday, he sais, so far, he has never had a problem holding aggro. If bloodlust causes that much aggro, zerkers shouldn't have it up when they are not tanking :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Styk]

Ellindar the moment you ask for vanguard to be taken away from Berserkers , that already is un balanced.... You give an advantage from one Tank class to another.... Remember Berserkers in eq2 ARE A TANK CLASS not dps, support a TANK class , you ever stop to think that Berserkers skills are maybe built around snap agro? BLoodlust for example has saved many a wipeout in groups ive been in where the guardian dies... Why ? snap agro, instead of the healers dying right after the guardian or Knight types drop , we kick bloodlust in go berserk taunt once or twice and we have agro = good recovery if done right...Bloodlust from what i see isnt working right .... The description is you go berserk if anyone in your party is hit, they way its working atm is even if anyone in the party is attacked it goes off, correct it to its orignal definition and it will be toned down abit. Make it into a no agro skill isnt fair, by doing that Berserkers can whine and say every beneficial buff should be no agro.. Look at it from a fantasy perspective, you think a monster will just ignore the fact that someone is hitting you faster? If you think yes then its unrealistic and i dont want to play a game like that.....Just like the old arguement about Feign Death.... Taunt should NEVER work 100% or that is unrealistic... But it should be effective to where you taunt a mob , he SHOULD turn from someone who hasnt casted a buff or attacked him... To where you taunt a mob multiple times it should build ( at least double each time used ) Guardians IMO should haev never been given alot of atk spells but instead lasting group HP/AC buffs ( not this bard 3 min crap ) and AGRO SKILLS .... That right their would have been a fair trade off for less dps combat spells, ( only problem is mulitple guardian groups will be rare and thats not good ) Fine tune what has been giving now , dont take away ANY classes spells or skills

[Syraxen]

<DIV>Me, i dont want beserkers to lose anything, I merely want us to</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) Gain some more defensive skills along the lines of hunker down, instaed of those that defend others, sure defending others if all well and good however those spells have a short duration and a naff cast time meaning the priest is usually dead by the time you realise that they have adds on them and B by the time you actually target them and cast the protection buff, of course you then have to taunt the thing off them which brings me to the most important part...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B) Need better taunts, guardian taunt is in-sufficient for the most part, I have to cast several taunts several times to get agro if im not using hold the line, where as this might be related to us not having any dps or hurting it enough to taunt it, since i dont want more dps (DPS is beserker teratory, we are both tanks, we get more defence and they get more offence.) we then should get better taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beserkers are still a viable tank if we had got these things because they tank well, taunt well and can kill things faster making up for any difference in defence.</DIV>