Call of Command - bummer

[Taurcl]

<DIV>Apparently, there is a hard cap on the amount of defence increases you can get. I dont recall the exact numbers but I was testing some stuff out last night and normally I NEVER play without my perma-defence buff on (the one that reduces offence, soldiers stance?). So I had that up and used Call of Command. Result? Jack Squat =( Bummer. <BR><BR>Took off soldiers stance, and then used call of command again, and THEN defence went up. Kinda disappointing imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course it still has its uses because its a group buff and perhaps your group members dont have maxed defence buffs but when Im grouping... unless we are fighting mobs that do AE Styles (Barrage) they never get hit anyway. So I tend to kinda back shelf this buff. Just seems to be kind of a bummer imo. <BR><BR>And yes... I have thought that I could stop using soldiers stance and start keeping call of command up that way my defence is still high and my offence isnt reduced but then Im making soldiers stance useless hehe. Plus I hate recasting buffs all the time though I have to do it constantly... if we got no bard/chanter type power runs low trying to keep them all up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wondering if anyone else had any comments on that defence buff cap thing... I would assume it gets higher at higher levels so maybe call of command and stance will stack better later on I dont know.</DIV>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>What level are you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will benchmark it at 28 if need be, I had not noticed this before you mentioned it.  So good catch.</DIV>

[Syraxen]

<DIV>did you /bug it, just in case its fudged?</DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

Its still useful as a taunt if nothing else =P

[Taurcl]

<DIV>Well like I said if you ARENT using Soldiers Stance it does give you a defence increase. So Id expect theres a hard cap on how much you can buff a skill at any given level. In which case I dont think it would be a bug. =/ <BR><BR>Cant hurt to do it to bring it to their attention though so if I remember when I get home ill do that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : Im 25, let me know what your results are at 28... thanks.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Taurclax on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 AM</span>

[ArgosyAxeGrind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taurclax wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well like I said if you ARENT using Soldiers Stance it does give you a defence increase. So Id expect theres a hard cap on how much you can buff a skill at any given level. In which case I dont think it would be a bug. =/ <BR><BR>Cant hurt to do it to bring it to their attention though so if I remember when I get home ill do that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : Im 25, let me know what your results are at 28... thanks.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Taurclax on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:14 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I think there is a hard cap. Someone else mentioned (in another thread) that if they dropped Solider's and then tested, they found that Call of Command did provide a defense increase, but with Soldier's Stance on, that "hard cap" was already reached, therefore the effects appears to be ineffective if you have this buff already up.

[GenesisForgot]

Soldier Stance - Adept 1Call of Command - App 3Hunker Down - App3 3--Base Defense: 132Defense + racial bonus: 137 (+5)Soldier Stance: 155 (+1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Call of Command: 156 (+1)Hunker Down: 161 (+5)orBase Defense + Racial Bonus: 137Call of Command: 156 (+19)Hunker Down: 161 (+5)orBase Defnse + racial Bonus: 137 Hunker Down: 161 (+24)so on their own, Soldier Stance gives 18, Call of Command gives 19, and Hunker Down gives 24, but they do not stack. This is dissapointing to say the very least. Considering I am perpetually in Soldier Stance there is zero reason to even have Call of Command up since it gives +1 armor, hunker down is only giving me 6 more on top of Soldier Stance..

[Taurcl]

<DIV>Argosy... that was me in the first post of this thread hehe.</DIV>

[Taurcl]

<DIV>Thats odd Genesis...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I use them by themselves like that Call of Command gives 4 points LESS defence than Soldiers Stance. I wonder why that is... I thought they were both adept 1 ill have to check I guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cancel that : My CoC is only app 1. Now I remember hehe, I didnt upgrade it because I was using stance all the time and figured I wouldnt use it much.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Taurclax on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 PM</span>

[Xter]

<DIV>So I take it that Ralley cry and CoC dont stack either?  Wow, I never noticed this.  What a total bummer.  I hope this is just a bug or something that changes.  If anything HD should stack, my god the down side is huge (no skills/casting), that it should at least work for the short time you can use it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blahhh!!  I'm bummed!</DIV>

[Taurcl]

<DIV>If youve got your other defence buffs up I find that HD only gives me like an extra 3 or 4 defence =/ if that. so I kinda stopped using HD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Rallying Cry and Call of Command, those stack because they have different effects. Rallying Cry is AC buff (Physical Mitigation). Call of Command is group defence skill buff.</DIV>

[ArgosyAxeGrind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taurclax wrote:<BR> <DIV>If youve got your other defence buffs up I find that HD only gives me like an extra 3 or 4 defence =/ if that. so I kinda stopped using HD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Rallying Cry and Call of Command, those stack because they have different effects. Rallying Cry is AC buff (Physical Mitigation). Call of Command is group defence skill buff.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Not to mention, these "buffs" work as great AoE taunts during an encounter. If anything, they are good for creating hate.

[Demolitio]

<DIV>I always use buffs as an added taunt.  if it weren't for that, I'd probably forget to keep the buffs up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm good with pulling aggro fast if I unleash the series of taunts, HtL and buffage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Definitely a bummer if they just don't stack :</DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>I'd hope that this is not intended or, at least, the hard cap is higher at higher levels - it seems a bit odd to have such an achievable cap.</DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>Presumably we should bug this until we get an official response saying it is intended.</DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

Its not a cap. The skills just aren't stacking so whatever one gives the highest +defense takes effect and the others dont do anything. I'm wondering if my +5 defense from racial ability is also pointless because it might have been the same with my + from soldier stance anyways..

[Xter]

<DIV>Ok, I confermed last night that are skills DO STACK.  now, they dont give the same amount as they would if they where solo, but they do add.  Sorry, I didnt have time last night to do a nice little numbers brake down, with SS up, CoC added about 6, and HD added about 4.  Sure, its only 10, but thats 10 more then you didnt just have.  If you dont think 10 is a big deal, then I guess you'er the type of person that would leave a ring slot open? or not change out gear for 10 more AC for free? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I looked at Toughness, and RC and others, they all seam to stack.  And while none of them added by themeselfs was all that great, added up they where way better then not using them.  The only skill that I'm going to back burner is probalby HD.  I'll only use it when I'm OOP with HTL up and its just deperate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, this could be lvl dependent? or that I have most of my skills at Adept 1 or App III?  But they do for sure STACK/ADD, just not at the full amount as they do solo. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wasuna]

<DIV>Call of Command also adds Parry skill wich Soliders Stance does not so it's still worth keeping up. Also, it adds defense and parry skill to your group which do get hit on and off and I'm sure they appreciate the buff.</DIV>

[Ainm]

Honestly, I prefer to keep Call of Command up rather than Soldier's Stance. SS consumes 3 concentration points, which means you -cannot- use more than Intervene with SS up. I like to have the freedom to use all of my protection abilities, so I'll gladly just keep CoC up. I have the three calls in a row: Call of the Guardian, Call of Command, and Battle Tactics, and just hit em all before each fight.

[Taurcl]

<DIV>Yeah it was never a concern that they dont stack. We know they stack. its definitely a cap problem.<BR><BR>See the post earlier up explaining how you basically get diminishing returns on other defence buffs once youve got one up.<BR><BR>And as for them having other uses despite being capped, that was expresssed as well... they are GROUP buffs so there is still reason to use them, they taunt... add other benefits. The only issue we are talking about is the defence cap itself. Please stay on topic so if anyone DOES read this that they can understand the problem. Some people seem to be getting side tracked and distracted and not reading all of the information presented here.</DIV>

[Xter]

<DIV>Well I can tell you its not a "Cap".  If it was a cap, then having SS up, then CoC should max it out, but instead only adds like 6, then if you HD, it adds another 4.  So, I dont think "Cap" is the right term.  I'm sure they wrote the code to be a % based on what skills you have up or something. Its weird, but it looks like you get better returns from stacking as you lvl your toon, and lvl the skill.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, you can have SS up, and intervene, and STILL use Sent. Becuse Sent doesnt take Con.  This makes sence really, becuse while it would be nice to use Ally, its going to be very very rare you even have too when MT'ing.  By the time you get done blazing through your taunts and still have to cast Sent, most of your tuants will be back up after Sent is done casting, and you want agro more then you want to HAVE to protect. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The flip side of this is when your not MT.  Then you dont want SS up anyway, cuse your pushing more offence then deffence.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can confirm that Rescue DOES work.  I've had it work 3 time now (once just as a test).  Know that it only rases your hate lvl by ONE. So you HAVE to get a solid round of tuants in before you can use it effectivly in most cases. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And one last thing someone pointed out, that I cant belive no one understands.  You need to taunt, all the time, not just when a mob bounces.  The idea is to get agro, and keep agro. You should be taunting about ever other skill and throughout the encounter.  I think some people dont understand this?  It must be why they are saying Guards cant tuant, becuse by the time a mob flips off of you, its hard to get them back on.  Mobs should NEVER hit anyone but you if your MT'ing correctly. Its really not hard. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Guard "protection" skills should hardly ever get used if your playing the class right (other then when your not MT for some reason, then Ally should be your main skill used).  In the 1800+ mobs I've killed, I think I've had to cast Sent/Ally/SF 4 times total.  Theres just no reason for it if your doing your job right.  Look at those skills as like the Paly LoH's or something.  Something thats an "Oh craap" type skill, unless of course your not MT'ing.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As secondary, be sure to check with the healers before you start intervning or Sent'ing the MT.  Its up to them if they want to heal 1 person or 2.  In 90+% of the encounters you'll find that the healers DONT want to have to heal 2 tanks, and most of the time its just not nessasary.  However Ally is a VERY usfull secondary tool.  Adding blocks for the MT is huge, becuse in most cases your not taking any damage, but protecting the MT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

It is not a cap. They don't stack. Look at my breakdown I did somewhere else.I cast SS, then Command, then HD and end up with 161. Or I just cast Command/HD and get 161. Or I just cast HD and get 161. It isn't capping me at 161, its just that the BEST plus over-rides anything else currently on. If I cast SS then command I ended up with 158, same if I didn't bother with the SS.. they DON'T stack. Which is totally and completely lame.

[GenesisForgot]

And rescue bounces you up JUST above the next person in line. What this means is that if that person decides to cast a heal, nuke, buff, etc. in that time between your Rescue and the next ability you cast, you are now below them again and Rescue has failed. When a mob starts hitting a cleric the first thing they'll do is heal themselves - countering your Rescue. Basically anything a zerker does (even standing there not hitting if lust is on) will break your rescue. yeah it "works" but it sucks.Oh and I taunt constantly as MT. I agree on that point. I cycle through my abilites but hit my taunts whenever possible (including buffs which are taunts)

[Belce]

<DIV>It is not unusual for buffs to not stack, they tend to go with what is best though, not sure if that is the case here though.  Same reason why you loose taunt when you use anger or forced swing and wild swing.  They are linked and done so that you can't chain off more specials than intended or stack defense greater than intended for class/lvl.  If you could stack defense buffs then better armor wouldn't be needed, you would just buff into it, or if you had good armor, then the encounter drops below the challenge as intended.  </DIV>

[Ellind]

<DIV>Bah... people, this is easy to see.  Genesis laid it out for you in the numbers, why are people still not understanding?  There is no cap... it's solely taking the best buff you have up.  Put on hunker down by itself, then do your other buffs and see if it goes up at all.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

Belce the problem is that I have 3 +defense skills and I only should ever be using 1 of them because the others don't stack with it.So now I have 2 buffs, 4 guard spells, and Rescue to add to my list of "skills not worth clicking".

[GenesisForgot]

"Same reason why you loose taunt when you use anger or forced swing and wild swing."Yeah those abilities are linked, Call of Command, Hunker Down, and SS are NOT and are completely different skills. They are not linked for a reason and I have Adept 1 in all 3 of them and should be able to use them all together. If not, then why have them at all.<p>Message Edited by GenesisForgoten on <span class=date_text>12-04-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>

[NerdsRo]

<DIV>Don't forget, when talking about the suck-ta-tude of Rescue, that the freekin recast time is like 30 min.</DIV>

[Xter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GenesisForgoten wrote:<BR>It is not a cap. They don't stack. Look at my breakdown I did somewhere else.<BR><BR>I cast SS, then Command, then HD and end up with 161. Or I just cast Command/HD and get 161. Or I just cast HD and get 161. It isn't capping me at 161, its just that the BEST plus over-rides anything else currently on. If I cast SS then command I ended up with 158, same if I didn't bother with the SS.. they DON'T stack. Which is totally and completely lame.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> There is something different between your skill levels and mine becuse all my skills DO STACK.  Make sure you using adept 1 on everything.  But again, I've tested this many many times.  THEY DO STACK.  Please try and find out why your's are not adding to the overall #, but please dont pass out bad info. 

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>When I say that they don't stack this is what I mean - the highest Plus Defense skill is the only one that counts, all others are overidden:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Base Defense: 157</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills used individually:</DIV> <DIV>Call of Command: app3 :  +7 defense</DIV> <DIV>Soldier Stance: adept 1 +6 defense</DIV> <DIV>Hunker Down: app3 +8 defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills used together: 165 defense or PLUS 8 defense (ie, the bonus Hunker Down gives me). If they stacked I woul dhave 157 +7 +6 +8 = 178 which is not the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In conclusion, they do not stack.</DIV>

[Tru3_Pl4y]

Stop whining!, so what if they dont stack. If they did you would have defences of someone about 4-5 levels higher than you, that would mean those horrible orange cons are only hitting you as often as a white or worse con. That would be pretty unbalancing. But then also green and blue mobs would hit you very very rarely as your defences now are 5+ levels higher so they hardly hit so you could solo group mobs etc.

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>I'm just wondering why it is that NO + defense abilities stack in the game, not whining. Also curious when they were totally nerfed by like 15 pts.. but oh well. I do like Dig In its just too bad it is so much better than all my other skills, meaning I don't even need to click them now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and 8 defense is 1.3 levels not 4-5.</DIV> <P>  <P>  <P>back when I was level 26 my defense skills gave me +24 which was almost 5 levels.. quite a big difference over the 8 I get now using the same skills.....</P><p>Message Edited by GenesisForgoten on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:11 AM</span>

[Drolio]

<blockquote><hr>Ellindar wrote:<DIV>Bah... people, this is easy to see.  Genesis laid it out for you in the numbers, why are people still not understanding?  There is no cap... it's solely taking the best buff you have up.  Put on hunker down by itself, then do your other buffs and see if it goes up at all.  </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Hehehe, that's a funny suggestion, considering you can't use any other abilities while HD is up <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just funny is all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wilin]

I'm fairly sure that I get alot more defense from those abilities. For instance, last time I checked, rallying cry was giving me about 60 defense. I don't have call of command yet though. Also, note that I haven't upgraded most of my armor since getting to 20th. Could it be that we're getting diminished returns with better equipment? In other words, the buffs are picking up the slack from poor equipment?

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>defense skill not AC..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also I just got Dig In at level 30.? and it gives me less defense than Soldier Stance Adept 1. 5 for Dig in and 6 for Soldier stance. </DIV> <DIV>Not sure whats up with that.. considering it makes me move slower which is *bad*..</DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GenesisForgoten wrote:<BR>Soldier Stance - Adept 1<BR>Call of Command - App 3<BR>Hunker Down - App3 3<BR><BR>--<BR><BR>Base Defense: 132<BR>Defense + racial bonus: 137 (+5)<BR>Soldier Stance: 155 (+1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>Call of Command: 156 (+1)<BR>Hunker Down: 161 (+5)<BR><BR>or<BR><BR>Base Defense + Racial Bonus: 137<BR>Call of Command: 156 (+19)<BR>Hunker Down: 161 (+5)<BR><BR>or<BR><BR>Base Defnse + racial Bonus: 137 <BR>Hunker Down: 161 (+24)<BR><BR><BR>so on their own, Soldier Stance gives 18, Call of Command gives 19, and Hunker Down gives 24, but they do not stack. This is dissapointing to say the very least. Considering I am perpetually in Soldier Stance there is zero reason to even have Call of Command up since it gives +1 armor, hunker down is only giving me 6 more on top of Soldier Stance..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>These numbers can't be right.  </P> <P>There IS a cap.  My base defense is 153 at level 30.  With CoC (the only one I use) it hits the cap of 161.</P> <P>For MANY levels the cap has been +8.  When i use soldiers stance after CoC i get 0 def.  If I only use soldiers stance I get 7 def. If I then cast CoC I get 1 more defense... there is your proof of a cap.</P> <P>Hunker Down also adds 0.  When you get CoC, Hunker Down and SS should no longer be on your hotbar as they only make you weaker.</P> <P>Just got Dig In at 30.6 and it adds AC and Defense... its an upgrade to Soldiers Stance I think (both add 7ac).  But the +def doesn't stack so Dig In only gives some AC if you have CoC up.  And it costs 43 power, slows and snares you.... All for 70ish AC.  Pretty lame.  </P> <P>All these spells are Adept 1 btw.</P> <P>The skill caps are either a huge bug or a very poorly thought out implimentation of what the devs want.  Either way it needs to be changed and everyone should complain as much as possible til we get a response.  The higher a guardian gets, the more skill buffs they get... offensive, defensive, parry etc.  My Warden friend can buff my offense too but doesn't since Guardians Call hits the caps for those.  70% of the buffs in the game are gonna be useless... ours most of all if this isn't changed.</P> <P>Everyone please /bug this.</P><p>Message Edited by ThramFalcox on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

<BR> <DIV>Look at the date on that post. Things have changed since then and they greatly reduced the bonus these skills give to defense. See my most recent post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is NOT a cap. Whatever skill gives you the highest +Defense overrides all the other ones. Obviously the highest is Hunker Down so no matter what you cast prior to HD you will still end up with +8 defense above your base (my base is 5 higher thx to racial bonus)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see here my recent post:</DIV> <DIV> " <DIV>When I say that they don't stack this is what I mean - the highest Plus Defense skill is the only one that counts, all others are overidden:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Base Defense: 157</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills used individually:</DIV> <DIV>Call of Command: app3 :  +7 defense</DIV> <DIV>Soldier Stance: adept 1 +6 defense</DIV> <DIV>Hunker Down: app3 +8 defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills used together: 165 defense or PLUS 8 defense (ie, the bonus Hunker Down gives me). If they stacked I woul dhave 157 +7 +6 +8 = 178 which is not the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In conclusion, they do not stack. There is no cap."</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT>

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>"70% of the buffs in the game are gonna be useless... ours most of all if this isn't changed."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly why I'm complaining about this. When a bard or othe buffer is in the group I can't cast my spells. Its not because there is a cap or anything, its just because whoever has the best +defense or offense or parry or whatever skill overrides all others. Atleast give us diminishing returns since they nerfed all the skill so badly... (yes those first set of numbers were accurate - I had +24 total defense from those skills before and now I have +<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GenesisForgoten wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Look at the date on that post. Things have changed since then and they greatly reduced the bonus these skills give to defense. See my most recent post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is NOT a cap. Whatever skill gives you the highest +Defense overrides all the other ones. Obviously the highest is Hunker Down so no matter what you cast prior to HD you will still end up with +8 defense above your base (my base is 5 higher thx to racial bonus)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see here my recent post:</DIV> <DIV> " <DIV>When I say that they don't stack this is what I mean - the highest Plus Defense skill is the only one that counts, all others are overidden:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Base Defense: 157</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills used individually:</DIV> <DIV>Call of Command: app3 :  +7 defense</DIV> <DIV>Soldier Stance: adept 1 +6 defense</DIV> <DIV>Hunker Down: app3 +8 defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills used together: 165 defense or PLUS 8 defense (ie, the bonus Hunker Down gives me). If they stacked I woul dhave 157 +7 +6 +8 = 178 which is not the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In conclusion, they do not stack. There is no cap."</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The adept 1 CoC is also 8 defense or more so its probably best to get that and get rid of Hunker Down.</P> <P>Here is why I think there is a cap...</P> <P>1) Call of Command used to give me more than 8 defense.</P> <P>2) They used to stack while other spells did not.</P> <P>3) I believe the actual patch message said something to the effect of "we have reduced the maximum values skills can be raised to" or something like that.  When I read it, I immediately thought it meant a cap.</P> <P>4) With most spells that don't stack, the one on first will be the one that counts.  If my berserker friend casts havoc I get some AC but less than Battle Cry gives.... If I then cast battle cry nothing happens to my AC.  Had I cast Battle Cry first, I would have more AC.  I have tested this.  The same is true for some priest buffs that don't stack.  This is why it is important to cast your stronger buffs first.</P> <P>When I cast soldier's stance, I get 7 defense.  If I then cast CoC I get an extra defense which leads me to believe there is a cap of 8 as opposed to a not stacking issue.... if they didn't stack then CoC would do nothing.</P> <P>Either way the effect is the same... a lot of useless spells.  So regardless of the mechanics we should /bug this and make our arts useful again.<BR></P>

[Xter]

<DIV>Other the drawing you pics, I dont know how else to show you that they DO STACK..  Simply put, when I cast a buff my AC and Deff go UP ever time with EVERY buff.  Now its not the same amount as if the spell was cast by itself, but it does increase my overall numbers.  So, its not a STACK as we are use too, and its not really a CAP as we are use too.  but more of a stack/squish.  Remember, this is a new game, and new mechanics.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I get time tonight I'll take SS's and post them so you can see they DO stack/squish (think of it as wet cardboard boxes being thrown on top of eachother, they flatten out some, but still add some height).   </DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<DIV>We don't know for sure if they stack.  Most unstackable spells in EQ2 won't override each other, but these ones might.  It could be an exception to the rule.  Thus your seeing your stats go up may just be the better buff overriding the worse buff.  And none of what we are talking about affects AC... I have no issue with our AC buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they probably do stack and a cap is more likely and that cap seems to be +8.  I am still waiting for someone to show this is not possible.  Remember we are talking skills here not stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem is there is absolutely no way to 100% prove either is true and so its going to be that much harder to explain the issue when we /bug it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ThramFalcox on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>lol xterra no they dont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>let me simplify:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skill A gives +5</DIV> <DIV>Skill B gives +6</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is individually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting Skill A gives +5 and then skill B would give +1. (6 total)</DIV> <DIV>Casting Skill B gives +6 and then skill A would give +0. (6 total)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is an example of the buffs NOT STACKING AND NOT CAPPING. Wjhat is happening here is the highest +defense takes precidence over any other buffs. Sure you can still cast them, but if they aren't giving you more defense, then there is no point besides the little icon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example - Bard in my group casts his +defense spell which gives more +defense than any ability I have. sure I can now cast Solider Stance, Hunker Down, CoC etc but they don't DO ANYTHING because they DON'T STACK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For this reason many MANY of the spells in the game are useless most of the time as the best one in group of 6 will override all the others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is what would happen if the skills stacked:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SS gives +5</DIV> <DIV>CoC gives +3</DIV> <DIV>HD gives +4</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>above is all individually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you cast SS then CoC and you get 8 total</DIV> <DIV>Now you cast SS then HD and you get 9 total</DIV> <DIV>etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... its really simple..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xter]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>SS gives +5</DIV> <DIV>CoC gives +3</DIV> <DIV>HD gives +4</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>above is all individually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you cast SS then CoC and you get 8 total</DIV> <DIV>Now you cast SS then HD and you get 9 total</DIV> <DIV>etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... its really simple..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off, all those give way more then +4 - 5. So your doing something wrong right off the bat.  Second it doesnt matter in what order I put buffs on, it always comes out to the same, elevated number. If I cast buff A and lets say it gives me +20 overall, then I cast buff B and i now have +25, that means they are adding up.  Becuse if I cast buff B by itself, it only gives me like 15, not 25.  </P> <P>This is not EQ1, things dont "stack without limits" here, they add to the overall, but you dont get the full effect.  however, its still better to keep them all up becuse overall you get MORE.  At least that is the case with me in yellow gear at lvl 30, and all Adept 1 buffs. </P> <P>Anyone that had questions on this, please just do it yourself and see. Its not hard to understand that 2 + 2 = 4 > 2. <BR></P>

[tsaav]

Xterra please read the post again and think.He didn't say order had anything to do with it.He is correct.

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>Heh. This is very simple. They simply do not stack, the HIGHEST overrides any other. You can test this out a thousand ways. I have no idea how you are getting the idea they stack but they simple do not. That's all there is to it.</DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<DIV>Ok was able to properly test it now that the stats given on my arts have changed a little.  Genesis is correct.  The highest always overwrites... no skill buffs stack... none.  Stat buffs stack but skills do not.  This sucks and it needs to be changed.  Whats the point of the parry buff on never surrender?  Or the defense on Dig In?  Why do I have 4 arts that buff one skill when they don't stack?</DIV>

[Xter]

<DIV>Ohh!! I see the confustion!  I wasnt look at "Skills"  I was looking at AC/HP/Deffence ONLY.  IN those cases, they do "squish" (not stack, but not cap, add too really).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Parry is nice and all, but I'll take a huge incress in AC and HP having all my buffs up over the slight difference in parry skills. I do agree that should "squish" just like HP and AC do though.  At least! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wasnt until last night that I found one skill that does override and lower AC, toughness.  Its the only one that didnt squish with the other 7 buffs that I have up that DO add to overall AC/HP.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, other then Parry, what other Deff skills are being effected? </DIV>

[Sunth]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> <DIV>Skills used individually:</DIV> <DIV>Call of Command: app3 :  +7 defense</DIV> <DIV>Soldier Stance: adept 1 +6 defense</DIV> <DIV>Hunker Down: app3 +8 defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Do they skills do anything else? I know Hunker Down keeps me from being able to attack, buts if its only giving me a +1 or +2 more defense and no other bonuses then there is no reason to use it if I already have SS up. Also SS lowers your offensive skills at a cost of concentration and not power, I use this buff almost all the time and then prep for battle using things like CoC. I haven't actually tested the numbers. CoC also raises parry, but I'm not sure I care about a few more points of parry skill if its not stacking properly with my SS. <BR>

[Bojer_Fleetfoot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xterra wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>SS gives +5</DIV> <DIV>CoC gives +3</DIV> <DIV>HD gives +4</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>above is all individually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you cast SS then CoC and you get 8 total</DIV> <DIV>Now you cast SS then HD and you get 9 total</DIV> <DIV>etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... its really simple..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off, all those give way more then +4 - 5. So your doing something wrong right off the bat.  Second it doesnt matter in what order I put buffs on, it always comes out to the same, elevated number. If I cast buff A and lets say it gives me +20 overall, then I cast buff B and i now have +25, that means they are adding up.  Becuse if I cast buff B by itself, it only gives me like 15, not 25.  </P> <P>This is not EQ1, things dont "stack without limits" here, they add to the overall, but you dont get the full effect.  however, its still better to keep them all up becuse overall you get MORE.  At least that is the case with me in yellow gear at lvl 30, and all Adept 1 buffs. </P> <P>Anyone that had questions on this, please just do it yourself and see. Its not hard to understand that 2 + 2 = 4 > 2. <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Call of Cammand and Soldiers Stance defence and AC parts do NOT stack, the rest of the stats do stack. The defence and AC from Hunker down WILL stack with them though. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tested with all Adept 1's at lv 28.</DIV>

[Xter]

<DIV>Well then, there is something odd happening, becuse my AC is greater with them both on at once, then with  either one by it self. (Also the case with Dig in, SS upgrade at 30).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, the only thing that doesnt ADD to my HP/AC when cast with others is Toughness, which acutaly replaces BC it apears and lowers my AC.  I'm not sure about skills, I'm only looking at HP/AC (the 2 most important factors to me as a tank). </DIV><p>Message Edited by Xterra on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:28 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>We are talking about defense, not armor class.</DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

<DIV>defense SKILL is incredibly important as a tank. When a mob attacks you they are rolling against a number of factors, one of which is your defense skill. </DIV>

[Bojer_Fleetfoot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xterra wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well then, there is something odd happening, becuse my AC is greater with them both on at once, then with  either one by it self. (Also the case with Dig in, SS upgrade at 30).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, the only thing that doesnt ADD to my HP/AC when cast with others is Toughness, which acutaly replaces BC it apears and lowers my AC.  I'm not sure about skills, I'm only looking at HP/AC (the 2 most important factors to me as a tank). </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Xterra on <SPAN class=date_text>12-22-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Then you are the only Guardian in the whole game that this is happening to.

[Xter]

<DIV>Lucky me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Sunthas wrote:</P> <P>Do they skills do anything else? I know Hunker Down keeps me from being able to attack, buts if its only giving me a +1 or +2 more defense and no other bonuses then there is no reason to use it if I already have SS up. Also SS lowers your offensive skills at a cost of concentration and not power, I use this buff almost all the time and then prep for battle using things like CoC. I haven't actually tested the numbers. CoC also raises parry, but I'm not sure I care about a few more points of parry skill if its not stacking properly with my SS. <BR><BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As far as I can tell Hunker Down and Soldier's stance don't do anything else besides add defense.  They are extremely useless arts once you get Call of Command. With CoC up, SS and Hunker Down won't add anything beneficial but will lower your offense.  With my adept 1 CoC (def) and Guardians Call (off and parry), all other skill buffs were useless.  If you don't have adepts of your arts then maybe other ones will work out better but there is no reason for a guardian not to have adepts of both of those as they can be found for around a gold usually.</DIV>

[Sunth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThramFalcox wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Sunthas wrote: <P></P> <P>Do they skills do anything else? I know Hunker Down keeps me from being able to attack, buts if its only giving me a +1 or +2 more defense and no other bonuses then there is no reason to use it if I already have SS up. Also SS lowers your offensive skills at a cost of concentration and not power, I use this buff almost all the time and then prep for battle using things like CoC. I haven't actually tested the numbers. CoC also raises parry, but I'm not sure I care about a few more points of parry skill if its not stacking properly with my SS. <BR><BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As far as I can tell Hunker Down and Soldier's stance don't do anything else besides add defense.  They are extremely useless arts once you get Call of Command. With CoC up, SS and Hunker Down won't add anything beneficial but will lower your offense.  With my adept 1 CoC (def) and Guardians Call (off and parry), all other skill buffs were useless.  If you don't have adepts of your arts then maybe other ones will work out better but there is no reason for a guardian not to have adepts of both of those as they can be found for around a gold usually.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That is really lame! I played with SS, CoC, and HD last night. I reached same conclusion that only the best one added defense and it wasn't very much. SS should have been balanced without nerfing it by adding very high defense and taking away a lot of offense. I will use SS when traveling to make sure I have high defense incase I get aggro. The rest of the time I will use CoC. HD will be removed from my Hotbar at this point. I will feedback this or /bug it tonight in game. Hopefully it changes with the big patch.<p>Message Edited by Sunthas on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[ThramFalc]

<DIV>Good News!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do or Die stacks with both CoC and Battle Tactics for lots of defense and AC.  At least they got one art right!  It is however on the same timer as Battle Tactics.  This one should really make Guardians stand out defensively.</DIV>