does race make a big difference?

[LadyAzrael]

<DIV>hi all..n00b here...was just wondering if race really makes a big difference in end game...i want to know now before i get to far in ...i have a half elf going gaurdian..is it worth it to keep her or should i have made a more"sturdy" tank...please help<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Gra]

<DIV>So long as you tailer your gear correctly, race doesn't matter at all end-game.  You may have a bit more trouble at lower levels, although your choice of half-elf is not nearly as "off" as say Erudite <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Archao]

<DIV>I'm an Erudite!  And at 23 I have no problems at all as a guardian.  Its how YOU play that determines how good a guardian you can be, not the race.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eurenik Archaoti - Kithicor</DIV>

[Moralpanic]

Naw, race plays very little in this game.

[schrammy]

<DIV>sorry guys i hate to disagree with you i am a level 21 troll gaurdian and i found that other than barbarians and ogers, other races make relatively poor gaurdians if we both wear about the same equipment my stats are way better than an darkelf gaurdian i came accros, maybe because i choose stamina every time i had the choice and he something else but i had 20% more more hp and about same AC and i also did more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>true that he's still able to do his job well but if you just go for stats trols,ogers and barbarians make realy the better gaurdians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well thats just what i found when i looked at the other gaurdians stats in game :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by schrammy on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:57 AM</span>

[Anker Steadfast]

<DIV>In the first half of the game, race matters a bit, but after that equipment smooths out the beginner stats.</DIV> <DIV>The only thing that really differs is the type of vision and the looks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and btw ... </DIV> <DIV>Erudite magic aura vision is quite useless and unimpressive.</DIV> <DIV>Infra Vision is way cool, but also useless.</DIV> <DIV>Ultra Vision works just nicely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sonic Vision I haven't tried, nor Amphibious Vision.</DIV> <DIV>If someone would put up a screenshot of either, I would be pleased. </DIV>

[JHappycl]

<DIV>Sonic vision turns the screen yellow and movement is kinda greyish and blurred. Aquavision merely makes it look like you're above water while underwater.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

I dont know that race makes a huge difference. Ultimately you look at your character all the time if you play in 3rd person - which you should be doing as a tank to see everything around you and group. You might as well like what you see. I chose barbarian because they are big and cool looking but not super big like ogre/trolls. I still went evil tho. =P

[Benderla]

<DIV>once the armor upgrades start to roll in post 30 - im assuming my h-elf cleric wont suck so badly - otherwise id re-roll right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>starting with 19 wis really hurts <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  but since they arnt stingy with the stats in EQ2, im guessing it wont matter late game.</DIV>

[Kyryll]

So, Shrammy, you've already decided who does and doesn't make a good guardian based on the stats? I think it's a big mistake to assume that the stats of EQ2 will be similar in functionality to those in EQ1 (where, I might add, they didn't mean a whole lot). I mean seriously, do we know yet wether it's best to have high AC, high hitpoints, high mitigation, or high avoidance? Of course, all 4 would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Anyway, enjoy your big ole guardian, but I'm walking down a different path as a wood-elf guardian. I HOPE in this game that agility means something, unlike EQ1. If so, great! If not, you'll be proven right. But at THIS time, I think it's WAY too early to be deciding that only trolls, ogres, and barbarians make good guardians.

[LadyAzrael]

<DIV>just wanted to say thanx to all those who helped me out with my question<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Erronn]

<DIV>Correct, we don't know for sure what affect the different stats do for us. We assume that AC helps us take less damage, whether that's by mitigation or avoidance. Higher hitpoints don't seem to matter as much since there is no efficiency gained from a complete heal (since it appears there is no complete heal). Thus, the only difference right now in stats is other people's perception. If you are one of multiple tanks on a raid, for example, or even just a group, you'll see the group ask who has the highest AC and/or HPs, and select the main tank from those stats. Soo, if you want to be selected as MA, I guess you better have the stats to get selected. And in the early levels, where we all seem to have the same armor, your racial starting stats will matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I agree, as we get higher in levels, the racial difference will be a moot point. There are no differences in other abilities like stun resistance, higher regen, etc. to make any race more effective than the other. Personally, I chose ogre, as I like the look of a large tank. I also wanted the higher power pool at the low levels. But I'd say, choose what you like....I agree that race is less of a concern here than it was in EQ1...</DIV>

[Fug]

<DIV>I play a Hafling Guardian and yes my troll/barbarian/oger counterparts have more HP than I do.  However, I do have much beter Agility.  I don't know what the tradeoff is between having a few extra HP vs. avoiding an extra couple of blows.  I can tell you that the majority of the damage I take during any session comes from the mobs HO's and spell damage - so I think agility and wisdom are both needed to offset a lower higher HP pool.   I have a very low strength so I don't have a big Power Pool but I rarely run out of power in a fight while grouping.  </DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Ogre is VERY nice, I have some crazy HP with the racial HP bonus.And if you say HP doesn't matter you are missing something... healers fizzle.. adds unload crits.. healers get behind... heals take time to go off. Having 300 more hp then other tanks my levels lets me survie some crazy stuff.<p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[benba]

<DIV>as a halfing, I have 70 Str at lvl 30 while  I see Guardian of other race with over 100 str and nearly same agility! I thought it would make any difference till I compared my stats to other Guardian of difference race. And all my equipments are constantly upgraded </DIV>

[Dart]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Yes race plays a huge role, as the Barbarians are SEXA! They have the best glam stats of em all! I would have been a dorf but um the barbs are just drop dead Sexa!</FONT></DIV>

[ilikeladi]

<DIV>To ponder does race make a difference.  If you think so then you are incorrect, two things make a good tank.  These two things are skill and gear.  Race is not one of those two things and such it will never be.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i'll ask this, if race made such a great difference then how is it possible that i an iksar guardian had over 200ac and 400hp than the same level troll guardian had that was standing right beside me?  Now i'm not degrading this guardian because of his race, no it was because he hadnt takin the time to of had sufficiant gearing for the job that he himself chose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its made simple again skill and gear, this is what makes a good tank . Race in itself will never mean anything to anyclass except for what you look like ingame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm down to earth, i know ingame thier is and will always be better tanks than i, also better equiped.  Thing is, thier race will never determine that-thier skill and gear will.  Seems some pperson's tend to forget that indeed other races also get hp-ac-evasion bonus's also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your wondering about my character i will tell you where you can find me. Kith server-razorbac 23 guardian.</DIV>

[Gilmuri]

<DIV>From my experience race makes very little difference - as the previous poster states it's mainly about skill in playing the class and gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a lvl22 Gnome Guardian - thought it would be fun to be so small and MT - and also a lvl 26 armorer. I have an almost full suit of pristine forged steel vanguard armor (made from rare steel clusters - all except the legs and chest which are pristine forged carbonite) and a pristine conditioned ash tower shield. I have an AGI of over 70, and an unbuffed AC of 1270. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I was tanking for a guild group (me 22 guardian, a 23 fury, 20 illusionist, 24 troubador and 23 monk) and taking on lvl 27 Mighty Griffons in TS and I was taking very little damage during the fight - health bar never got below yellow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all about using the right skills at the appropriate times and making sure that your gear is the absolute best you can find/make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Muriel</DIV> <DIV>Runneye</DIV>

[WolfL]

My girlfriend and me made 2 fighters that we played up together to lvl 18 warriors.She chose a halfelf and I chose a barbarian.All our stats are more or less equal.Still... I can easily solo a ++ mob that is 3 lvls below me (1 lvl from graying out). I hardly get hit.She on the other hand gets smacked like I would have been smacked by doing a ++ mob 1 level above.That is. I can initiate combat on a lvl 15 mob and leave the computer and come back when it's dead. She will have to lash out everything she got or she will die.Can anyone explain why this is? There has to be more to race+class combo affecting this.

[Raea]

<DIV>Do 1/2 elfs get the +3(or 5 whatever it is) defense racial tradition?  I know Barbs get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the only place where i can see race playing a huge difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The question I'm trying to find an answer to is how does the +avoidance trait compare to the + defense.</DIV>

[ghosthamm]

<DIV>yes and no, your playing an elf you will have to play better than say someone playing as a troll or barbarian. that said if you are a better player...and dont get discouraged  to early about the racial stats.....after lvl 30/ even 25 its all about the look, starting off is the hard part.</DIV>

[WabbitHunt]

<DIV>The only experience I've had so far where race played a huge roll was the guardian in group being a dorf.  He literally had to let groups pass us in RunnyEye because there was too much confusion.  He also couldn't switch to mobs quickly enough during his own pulls, or notice that one of the mobs peeled off and was hammering a caster.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Size matters.  And not utilizing other camera views matters.  You can always be shrunk down if need be, but dang, who is going to grow you when you are so darn short you can't find the mobs mixed in with group members?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There might have been out-of-game issues as well...but dunno that for sure.</DIV>

[Demolitio]

<DIV>Honestly, as a High Elven Guardian (Lvl 29 now) I haven't had any problems with tanking.  Key for me, is to make sure my gear is up to par.  When my gear isn't Orange/Yellow, I start looking for upgrades.  I might have at most, 1 or 2 blue pieces at any given time.  Height isn't really too tough to get around,  Take advantage of 3rd person view.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During battle, I'm constantly in 3rd person, and I'm often looking around incase there might be an add.  If I can't see all of my groupmates, I keep an eye on their health bars at the same time.  If I see someone starting to lose Health, I quickly locate them, and do my best to peel the mob off of them.</DIV>

[Riply_Anklebiter]

<DIV>Realy its all about upgrades. I play a Half-Elf gaurdian and tend to out tank and have more hps then any other gaurdians I group with. Troll/Ogre/Barb it realy doesnt matter, if you dont keep up on your gear this lil Half-Elf will make yah look bad. In my mid 30s now more and more im seeing race has little to no effect on who can tank better. If EQ2 follows the path of gear that EQ1 did, by end game race wont matter at all becuase there are caps on stam/agi/.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far a shrinks......I havent seen any yet and sense my gnome eye eats muh bones every cast ill stick with a medium sized class.....</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

<blockquote><hr>Riply_Anklebiter wrote:<DIV>Realy its all about upgrades. I play a Half-Elf gaurdian and tend to out tank and have more hps then any other gaurdians I group with. Troll/Ogre/Barb it realy doesnt matter, if you dont keep up on your gear this lil Half-Elf will make yah look bad. In my mid 30s now more and more im seeing race has little to no effect on who can tank better. If EQ2 follows the path of gear that EQ1 did, by end game race wont matter at all becuase there are caps on stam/agi/.....</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>As far a shrinks......I havent seen any yet and sense my gnome eye eats muh bones every cast ill stick with a medium sized class.....</DIV><hr></blockquote>The problem is.. if my ogre has the same gear as your elf I have a lot more HP. don't compare yourself to bad tanks, compare youself to equal tanks (chances are neither of us is #1 tank in game, so someone is your equal).

[Riply_Anklebiter]

<DIV><<<The problem is.. if my ogre has the same gear as your elf I have a lot more HP. don't compare yourself to bad tanks, compare youself to equal tanks (chances are neither of us is #1 tank in game, so someone is your equal).>>></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What your not realising is that there are caps on stam which is the main reason you will have more hps then myself if you have the same gear. So my point is at end game it doesnt matter your still not gonna have any more hps then I will, hense race in the end realy doesnt matter. </DIV>

[TunaBoo]

<blockquote><hr>LadyAzrael wrote:<DIV>hi all..n00b here...was just wondering if race really makes a big difference in end game...i want to know now before i get to far in ...i have a half elf going gaurdian..is it worth it to keep her or should i have made a more"sturdy" tank...please help<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>Ogre also gets a raw 3% hp boost. I don't believe anyone else gets this exact buff as a racial.. if not, then with two chars with capped sta ogre has 3% more hp.Not like I am trying to say ogre is the uber best tank in the world. My point is in the beginning, middle, and end game race DOES matter. Maybe kerra is the best tank because of more balanced agi and sta.. I have no idea. But saying all races end up the same isn't true.

[Raea]

<DIV>Have we found out what the stat caps are yet or have the level 50's not yet reached them yet?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as far as races...  2 things give certain races an advantage in the tanking department...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3% Boost in raw HP's a few races have this, not just ogres.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>+Defense (This is the most important tradition IMHO)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, max HP's doesn't really have that much of an impact.  if stats like STA can be capped, a 3% difference in HP's won't be the end all be all, however with level 50 tanks being able to hit 10k HP's, that is an extra 300 HP's (Don't think there is any gear in game that gives that much).  Since there is no complete heal spell, as long as your healers can keep up with a mobs DPS, your tanks relative HP pool in 99% of encounters won't have much effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>+Defense on the otherhand is a stat that is extremely important, as it directly relates to your ability to avoid mob swings.  I don't think any items in game give +Defense, not sure if any buffs buff defense eigther.  Feel free to correct me.  But the races that get the +Defense racial traditions will ALWAYS tank better than a race w/out that tradition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ogres get the best of both worlds, and end up being the best race for a tank if your into min/maxing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ogres are the only race that get the 3% HP Boost, the +Defense Racial tradition, and they also get a 3min/30minrecast +Defense buff that buffs their entire group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would place humans as the second best tank race, as they get the +Defense tradition, and a single target +Defense 3min/30minrecast +Defense buff.  But they do not get the 3% HP boost tradition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if were talking about "capped stats" those are the only types of racial traditions that directly benefit tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So 2 races with identical gear @ level 50 and capped stats, the races w/out the +Defense tradition are going to be at the most disadvantage from a min/max point of view.  As they will not be able to avoid hits as well as a race that does.  And for 3 minutes at a time, the humans and ogres will be able to evade even better than all the other races.  And the Ogres will have 3% HP more than all of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But is this a critical gameplay factor on endgame ubermobs?  Dunno, only log parsing would really be able to show.  Since typically ubermobs have such high atk that they nearly almost always hit anyways.  So I'm not sure how much the +defense from the tradition would effect their hit/miss ratio.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is noticible on lower level mobs though.  As the increased defense stats can make a green mob have the hit/miss ratio of a grey mob, and make soloing these types of mobs possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But overall I think this is a fairly accurate accout of the differences in races.  I haven't really begun parsing hit/miss ratios, but when I get another tradition on my melee, i'll let yah all know.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

"not sure if any buffs buff defense eigther. "Guardians get a ton of +def buffs, and so far they all stack with the racial +def fully.

[Gilg]

<DIV>stats make a big difference, all these people saying stats are same at higher level are stupid, obviously equip is same for everyone therefore better starting stats = better end game stats = ogre 4 the w1n and all that crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its not hard to get armor so if you wanna look like a crappy tank you're better off going ogre + petrified eye rather than picking any other class than ogre.</DIV>

[Riply_Anklebiter]

<DIV>Nobody said stats were not important, stats are everything....well that and ac/hps =p. But at 50 people will cap and if you raid at all no matter what race you play everyone will hit that cap. So the added stam/str whatever ogres get wont mean anything because at some point they along with everyone else will hit the same cap. SoE has already stated several times that race will mean little to nothing at end game. Yes I understand ogres get a +3 to hps but at lvl 50 when you have 300 extra hps does that realy matter when your gettting hit for 1K plus? nope. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as +defense I cant tell yah but they have thous types of items in EQlive so I can only imagine at end game or in some soon expantion thous types of items will also be added. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wasnt trying to start a [Removed for Content] contest but to think because you made a ogre/troll/barb war your going to have any advantage over another race your just fooling yourself. If ogres still had the non stun from front ability that they did in EQlive I would have to agree to a curtain extent. </DIV>

[Raea]

<DIV>As far as hitting the cap...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at some of the 50's in game on eq2players, they are hardly near the stat caps.  From what I have seen most armor gives a lot of AC, but little in the way of stats.  So it's will probably be a while before anyone hits the stat caps.  Assuming they are 255ish like in eq1, but since this is eq2, who knows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TunaBoo]

I have NEVER seen a player hit a stat cap. I have seen a buffed level 50 have like 411 of a stat,I don't feel 411 is a cap. Same with resists, ive seen 3123 or something. So while there MAY be a cap in the future, no one can hit it yet as far as I know. Don't assume all stats will be capped like eq1.

[Raea]

<DIV>Actually the +300Hp's (and it's only going to get higher as the levels increase) might be the difference between surviving a bad roll of the dice, where you don't evade any of the hits, and get crittied on top of it, and taking a dirtnap for your raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All races will make viable tanks, but certain races will shine brighter than others for their specific archtype.</DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>Race plays a huge role in the success of a guardian, don't let anyone tell you different, wood elf chicks prefer the barbarian guardian.  Beef, looks, hygiene all in our favour.  </DIV>

[AngelR]

<DIV>I like how the Kerra stack up... with the whole STA/AGI thing still up in the air, it gives you the balance to lean either way by tailoring your gear.  Fairly physical race, so I'm not lagging too far in the HP department.  Move that "size" slider all the way to the right and you are as tall and ominous on the battlefield as any hairless wonder. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And hygeine?  Heck, we don't even need a bathtub around to keep clean (as long as you can stand coughing up the occasional furball.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When rolling a Kerra, though... just say no to the piercings!  The mobs will be trying to put enough holes in you as it is. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Obmarbe]

I play gnome guardianno complaints no or ever from any group members or myself.the extra 300 hps at lvl 50 wont make up for skill and ability to lead.people invite me to tank for them not because i have the most hps - but because i do my jobrace makes a difference, but not normally the kind of difference between success or a wipeout - it's skill that makes THAT difference.I say play whatever the hell race you want and enjoy it - dont worry about the guy next to you.do your job, and do it well and you will be respected. I made my guardian, because as a lvl 30 dirge I was sick and tired of [FaarNerfed!]ty tanks.play what you want its more fun that way IMO. the min max thing will not matter in the end game - i never see people shouting for an "ogre-only MT".

[Weekapaug]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LadyAzrael wrote:<BR> <DIV>hi all..n00b here...was just wondering if race really makes a big difference in end game...i want to know now before i get to far in ...i have a half elf going gaurdian..is it worth it to keep her or should i have made a more"sturdy" tank...please help<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Ogre also gets a raw 3% hp boost. I don't believe anyone else gets this exact buff as a racial.. if not, then with two chars with capped sta ogre has 3% more hp.<BR><BR><BR>Not like I am trying to say ogre is the uber best tank in the world. My point is in the beginning, middle, and end game race DOES matter. Maybe kerra is the best tank because of more balanced agi and sta.. I have no idea. But saying all races end up the same isn't true.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The only thing Ogres have over Dwarves is the +5 STR racial Tradition and higher starting Strength.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dwarves, like Ogres, also start with 25 STA, get the +5 Defense, the + 3% HP and the +5 STA racial traditons (at least according to the book....These things often are wrong, but if this is wrong it will be the first thing I've seen wrong in the one for this game).  In theory, HP-speaking, a Dwarf should be exactly the same as an Ogre in the same gear who made the same choices when they popped, assuming there is no behind-the-scenes difference in the way HPs are modified by this stuff based on race.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Weekapaug on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 AM</span>

[Weekapaug]

<DIV>Contacted some dorfs.....They confirm that the +3% HP racial tradition was available to them.</DIV>

[Teh_n0]

<DIV>Yeah, but dwarves are short and short people should have less hit points....Dev's, nerf teh dwarves.  :smileytongue:</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

So an ogre will have 8 starting + 5 trait more str. 13 str ends up being over 100 power and some dps.. for the big fat tank approach ogre wins ;p Others ways to go about it, but ogre is pretty sweet to maintank for me.

[Weekapaug]

<DIV>Yes, but that 1 point extra of AGI they get tips the balance ;p</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>LOL kidding....actually I'm only aware of this stuff because I've been doing a bunch of research for my new tank I want to roll......Just wanted to say, Tuna, thanks for your insightful posts in the various threads.....Aren't a lot of thoughtful high levels around to answer questions for a lot of classes and your's have been very helpful, to me at least.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>cheers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Atanvar]

<blockquote><hr>Anker Steadfast wrote:<DIV>In the first half of the game, race matters a bit, but after that equipment smooths out the beginner stats.</DIV><DIV>The only thing that really differs is the type of vision and the looks.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Oh and btw ... </DIV><DIV>Erudite magic aura vision is quite useless and unimpressive.</DIV><DIV>Infra Vision is way cool, but also useless.</DIV><DIV>Ultra Vision works just nicely.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Sonic Vision I haven't tried, nor Amphibious Vision.</DIV><DIV>If someone would put up a screenshot of either, I would be pleased. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Sonic vision rocks in dungeons... it's a lot better than ultravision. I hate the purple hue to ultrav.

[ThramFalc]

<DIV>Its been said but I'll agree... Races with the +5 defense tradition have a HUGE advantage.  They will always be effectively 1 level higher than other races.</DIV>

[Rolsda]

<DIV>Everyone knows humans are the best tanks, we ere in EQ1 and we shall be in EQ2 :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Lithium0]

<DIV>I play a 37 gnome guardian  , altho I was aware of the poor starting stats compared to other races , as has been shown in every mmorpg.. Items > starting stats. True the items may be limited atm and so we are all running about in similar equipment which gives rise to the race advantage, but I doubt very much in 6 months time that would be the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would still say to anyone that choose the race you want to and forget about the stats. Same thing was said in eq1 and then gnomes got their tinkered armour as well as aa's being brought in to avoid stuns etc...so I wouldn't worry too much if concerned long term. </DIV>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riply_Anklebiter wrote:<BR> <DIV> Yes I understand ogres get a +3 to hps but at lvl 50 when you have 300 extra hps does that realy matter when your gettting hit for 1K plus? nope. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00>Bingo ~~ at level 50, 300 HPS wont mean jack, when your getting hit anywhere from 1k to 3k damage. My take is end game = race equality, the bonus is all about the early and mid levels.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00>10 more agility at end game? So what most of the damage you take is from HO's or spells, so resists would be the only factor I would consider to have any impact in the End game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00>IMHO of course</FONT></DIV>

[Pandergosk Pie'Voluti]

<DIV>I made a troll because they're so pretty</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And cuz I played one in EQ1</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<DIV>Oo Pander from Torvo? Anyhoo What about the races that get 3% avoidance race traits? What about the Classes that end up with 15 or so more agi than an ogre and only 5 less sta. What about stat selections not everyone will make the same one. Also that argument that everyone has same gear high end is not true. Some raid mobs and quests many lvl 50 dont have that some do. There is a nearly 800ac bp with 15agi 15sta 40hp etc etc, dont tell me every lvl 50 has that bp because it just is not true. Your gear will not be the same but in a few slots such as a fbss. Nearly everyone will have it. You will find that gear is not the same tho. You cant use that arument at any point in the game. Is just like Anonymity on Lavastorm has almost full forged Feysteel armor. Not everyone is gonna have that and i have not seen anything that compares at lvl 40. When rare armor and jewelry is made tier 5 that is supposed to be better or close to better than anything else will not be avalilable to all. Race is not near as big of an issue as your resources and gear.  A resourceful any small race will wpe the floor with any other race. Also what about players that end up with adept 3 or master in all of there skills? Point being, gear skills etc will never be the same. That is far superior than race selection and some race traits. </DIV>

[Styk]

SoE has stated that race will matter for awhile , at least until the first few expansions when gear truly evens it out... also they said its how you place your character not you race <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Eneebreat]

sorry, they posted this twice...edited it to make it shorter.<p>Message Edited by Eneebreated on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 PM</span>

[Eneebreat]

Ya know what...since this is turning into a mountainous thread I'm just going to throw my 2c up here and then I'll wade through the content (have just briefly seen a few opinions) ....In every high content, "long lvling" MMO this debate comes up...came up abundantly in FFXI.How ANYONE can sit and say that race doesn't matter is beyond me. I'm a Barbarian Warrior. Want to do either Zerker or Guard. If you are a Wood Elf, you will ALWAYS have lower stats than me if our equip stays as equal, and obviously, in the event that mine's better. The "other view" always compares themselves to people with horrid armor. Why? If an Ogre or Barbarian have on good stuff, they are always a better tank stat wise. Then we come to "player skill"...ok, let's assume both of them know how to use their mouse and keyboard, and don't fall asleep. They'll do the same thing you will. They'll just have more HP, higher STR, = take more hits, do more melee dmg. STR also effects carrying...you're not going to wear heavy armor and still carry bags and bags of things as easily as a character with +'s on you (this is what I'm hearing...so far as a barbarian he can carry LOADS.) Also, you gotta think about it...there's even another angle to this. Why would you want to try to make a character that EXCELS at magic dmg dealing naturally, only to pick a class that has absolutely nothing to do with those traits/abilities. It's not as much that you would be a bad tank...you would just be doing better being a rogue/mage type. A lot Better.Would you tank with a froglock when they're available?i edited this to add something that I was just looking in to.Racial Traditions...http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bin/soe.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=11593&p_created=1099177310&p_sid=q*xzRBxh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9NzMmcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9 wcm9kX2x2bDE9JnBfcHJvZF9sdmwyPSZwX2NhdF9sdmwxPSZwX 2NhdF9sdmwyPSZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PXJhY2l hbCB0cmFkaXRpb25z&p_li=The racial traditions given to a barbarian (and ogre, but even more so barbarian) are completely tailored towards tanking. If any of you have the strategy guide look right in the beginning and see what racial traditions each race carries.Do you want your berserker/guardian to have a neat buff to their magic pool later on? Or would you rather STR+5, Att%+3, Defense +10%..etc etc...<p>Message Edited by Eneebreated on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[Weekapaug]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR><BR>How ANYONE can sit and say that race doesn't matter is beyond me. I'm a Barbarian Warrior. Want to do either Zerker or Guard. If you are a Wood Elf, you will ALWAYS have lower stats than me if our equip stays as equal <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually, the Wood Elf will always have higher AGI than you as he starts with 30 and gets a racial tradition that adds another 5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The overall effectiveness of AGI in tanking was recently nerfed, but that's not to say the pendulum couldn't swing the other direction in the future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless, AGI is a factor in your AC and it's also a factor in avoidance and things like parry etc.    Wood Elves also gets a racial tradition that adds to avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The question is, which matters more really, I guess.  I tend to lean towards the hardier races as well, but that's not to say that the alternate view is invalid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Time will tell, I guess.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Weekapaug on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 PM</span>

[Eneebreat]

Wood Elf is not a tank...AGI is great...but terrible when it's at the expense of losing str, sta, hp...Wood Elf= lighter, agile mage or scout type...Orc, Barbarian, Human= TankWe could say that even a child's bike would get you to work in the morning, but still...a car is always going to do it better.I for one would never (and know I'm not alone on this) invite a Wood Elf tank into my party.

[Snikey]

<DIV>Ouch you get past a certain level that little extra sta from race means less than a % difference. Tanks always have and always will be totally gear dependent at higher levels and race will mean nothing. EQ1 Gnome warrior anyone?</DIV>

[Weekapaug]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>Wood Elf is not a tank...<BR><BR>AGI is great...but terrible when it's at the expense of losing str, sta, hp...<BR><BR>Wood Elf= lighter, agile mage or scout type...<BR><BR>Orc, Barbarian, Human= Tank<BR><BR>We could say that even a child's bike would get you to work in the morning, but still...a car is always going to do it better.<BR><BR>I for one would never (and know I'm not alone on this) invite a Wood Elf tank into my party.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The topic here is about ideal race for a tank.  You are saying that certain races are not viable and while that may have been the case in whatever game you used to play, that simply is not the case in EQ2.</P> <P>All races are viable for all classes in this game....Some are more ideal than others, which is what we are discussing.</P> <P>The best tank I know personally is a gnome.</P> <P>I for one would never invite someone who makes clueless generalizaions about other players based on experience in an entirely different (and mediocre at best) game into my party.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>By the way, there are no orcs as player races in this game.....Wrong game again.</P> <P>I'd take a wood elf who knows how to play his class over a large race who doesn't in a heartbeat.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Weekapaug on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 PM</span>

[Eneebreat]

weakpaug...let me just tell you that it's very obvious that intelligence matters more than race. I for one would never invite anyone as ignorant as you. You agree that some races are better suited for certain classes than others. We agree on something here. So then what are you debating with me?Is it that you don't like the fact that a wood elf isn't a tank and I would never invite one? Get used to it because believe me, I'm not the only one that doesn't like [Removed for Content] in my party.I'm not comparing this to one mmo...I have played several. In all of them...race mattered, and in all of them you had a certain percentage of fairies who picked a class counterproductive to their race only to argue that they are just as good. You're not. Again, you fully agreed that some races are better suited to others. Yet in the same tongue attempted to pass off "but it doesn't matter". Well, you need to become less indecisive my friend. Either it matters or it doesn't. Would you try to become a mage with a barbarian? No....of course not, that's not what they're good at.And a wood elf is garbage as a tank...bottom line? why would ANYONE stand in a party (if they're the leader) and watch as the following ensues: extra downtime, extra mana, extra frustration...all because we are trying to be "tolerant" to other races being a tank? What is this affirmative action? so tell me...why would someone go through a party experience with a sub par tank when there are 3 barbarians all standing around "lfg"? They wouldn't, and they don't. But you're the one who's arguing so you tell me. Why would anyone invite a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank? ???<p>Message Edited by Eneebreated on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Weekapaug]

<DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You, sir, are clueless.</DIV>

[Teh_n0]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>weakpaug...<BR><BR>let me just tell you that it's very obvious that intelligence matters more than race. <BR><BR>I for one would never invite anyone as ignorant as you. You agree that some races are better suited for certain classes than others. We agree on something here. <BR><BR>So then what are you debating with me?<BR><BR>Is it that you don't like the fact that a wood elf isn't a tank and I would never invite one? Get used to it because believe me, I'm not the only one that doesn't like [Removed for Content] in my party.<BR><BR>I'm not comparing this to one mmo...I have played several. In all of them...race mattered, and in all of them you had a certain percentage of fairies who picked a class counterproductive to their race only to argue that they are just as good. You're not. <BR><BR>Again, you fully agreed that some races are better suited to others. Yet in the same tongue attempted to pass off "but it doesn't matter". Well, you need to become less indecisive my friend. Either it matters or it doesn't. <BR><BR>Would you try to become a mage with a barbarian? No....of course not, that's not what they're good at.<BR><BR>And a wood elf is garbage as a tank...<BR><BR>bottom line? why would ANYONE stand in a party (if they're the leader) and watch as the following ensues: extra downtime, extra mana, extra frustration...all because we are trying to be "tolerant" to other races being a tank? What is this affirmative action? <BR><BR>so tell me...why would someone go through a party experience with a sub par tank when there are 3 barbarians all standing around "lfg"? They wouldn't, and they don't. But you're the one who's arguing so you tell me. <BR><BR>Why would anyone invite a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank? ??? <P>Message Edited by Eneebreated on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>RACIST!!!!! </DIV>

[Eneebreat]

well weak paug...I will take your answer (which lacks any substance whatsoever) as an acknowledgment of "you're right, I'm wrong".thank you for not being stubborn about this.(seriously...no saracasm here...i mean what could you have even argued if you wanted to? lol)i love it..."you sir, are clueless"...about what? that a party would never take a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank?you obviously couldn't answer the question I asked you on the last post, so I see no reason to expect any logical reply to this one lol...kids today...

[Dart]

<DIV><SPAN class=248144720-09022005><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Rolf I feel Dummer'r after reading this thread)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[Maldrick]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>well weak paug...I will take your answer (which lacks any substance whatsoever) as an acknowledgment of "you're right, I'm wrong".<BR><BR>thank you for not being stubborn about this.<BR><BR>(seriously...no saracasm here...i mean what could you have even argued if you wanted to? lol)<BR><BR>i love it..."you sir, are clueless"...about what? that a party would never take a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank?<BR><BR>you obviously couldn't answer the question I asked you on the last post, so I see no reason to expect any logical reply to this one lol...<BR><BR>kids today...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, he's absolutely correct.  You are either a clueless newbie or a troll.  I suspect both.  He doesn't have to respond to you because he covered why you are dead wrong in his previous posts as have other posters further back in the thread.  Simply because you have some apparent hostility to the truth doesn't mean people need to repeat themselves.  This was a perfectly nice discussion about min/maxxing a tank vis a vis race until you came along and crapped all over it with your bad attitude and incorrect assumptions and biases.  And you illustrate your own ignorance of EverQuest II with each post you add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not FFXI, DaoC, UltimaOnline, Lineage, or any other game.  It's not even EverQuest.  Your experiences in ANY other game have exactly NO bearing on this game or this game or this discussion.  This is EverQuest II, and if you have been paying any attention at all, which apparently you haven't, this game is designed around EVERY race/class combination being entirely viable.  There is search button at the bottom of this page.....Search for "Race" or "ARAC" if you really want to learn something about this, because you are indeed clueless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, EverQuest II was designed for every race and class combination to be perfectly viable.  If you find that your Barbarian is so vastly superior to a Wood Elf that this is not the case, then this should be reported in /bug or /feedback because something is not working as intended.  Either Barbarians need to be nerfed or Wood Elves need to be boosted, because the game was not intended for there to be that vast a difference in races playing the same class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I myself played an Ogre tank in beta to high 20s and made a High Elf tank on release.  There is nothing I cannot do with my High Elf that I could do with the Ogre.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, there are differences in the races and some races are more ideal than other races for being tanks.  That doesn't at all mean that any race is not viable.  Again, if there is ANY race/class combo that is not viable then there is a game imbalance that needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is, if you are concerned with min/maxxing, race matters.  If you aren't then it doesn't.  No more, no less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only "[Removed for Content]" here is you.  You are wrong.  The only "garbage" here is your attitude and incorrect assertions.</DIV>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>well weak paug...I will take your answer (which lacks any substance whatsoever) as an acknowledgment of "you're right, I'm wrong".<BR><BR>thank you for not being stubborn about this.<BR><BR>(seriously...no saracasm here...i mean what could you have even argued if you wanted to? lol)<BR><BR>i love it..."you sir, are clueless"...about what? that a party would never take a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank?<BR><BR>you obviously couldn't answer the question I asked you on the last post, so I see no reason to expect any logical reply to this one lol...<BR><BR>kids today...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00>Rofl tell me you are joking? I dont think he gave in........... I believe he gave up on you, sir dumballot :0</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00>Over one billion served, you just happen to be # 1,000,000,001.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P>

[Eneebreat]

again...all of this b/c someone threatened your "race"'s stature on a video game...unreal...simply unreal you kids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lolgood timeshigh elf, wood elf, any elf...eats my balls

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>again...all of this b/c someone threatened your "race"'s stature on a video game...<BR><BR>unreal...simply unreal you kids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol<BR><BR>good times<BR><BR><BR>high elf, wood elf, any elf...eats my balls<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am a Barb Gaurd, but your still a goober in my eye's. Bottom line, know your facts before you claim for them to be gospel. You might get an ounce of cred's on these boards.<BR>

[Pandergosk Pie'Voluti]

hah, this thread really went downhill.I think you have to look at it as comparable to the old archetype argument. Different races have different ways of approaching things, but each on, particularily if played well, can be effective in their role.To say that a gnome tank is not as effective as a barbarian or an ogre or, (me) a troll is just being ignorant.When items and buffs come in to play, it balances out significantly. One might have slightly higher HP, but the gnome is going to avoid more hits and proc more. Using a PGT, you're going to keep yourself warded more, which takes stress off the healers.Tanking isn't just about how effective you are as an individual. It's about how effective you are at keeping your group alive, and how well you play in a team environment.

[WabbitHunt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maldrick wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>well weak paug...I will take your answer (which lacks any substance whatsoever) as an acknowledgment of "you're right, I'm wrong".<BR><BR>thank you for not being stubborn about this.<BR><BR>(seriously...no saracasm here...i mean what could you have even argued if you wanted to? lol)<BR><BR>i love it..."you sir, are clueless"...about what? that a party would never take a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank?<BR><BR>you obviously couldn't answer the question I asked you on the last post, so I see no reason to expect any logical reply to this one lol...<BR><BR>kids today...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, he's absolutely correct.  You are either a clueless newbie or a troll.  I suspect both.  He doesn't have to respond to you because he covered why you are dead wrong in his previous posts as have other posters further back in the thread.  Simply because you have some apparent hostility to the truth doesn't mean people need to repeat themselves.  This was a perfectly nice discussion about min/maxxing a tank vis a vis race until you came along and crapped all over it with your bad attitude and incorrect assumptions and biases.  And you illustrate your own ignorance of EverQuest II with each post you add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not FFXI, DaoC, UltimaOnline, Lineage, or any other game.  It's not even EverQuest.  Your experiences in ANY other game have exactly NO bearing on this game or this game or this discussion.  This is EverQuest II, and if you have been paying any attention at all, which apparently you haven't, this game is designed around EVERY race/class combination being entirely viable.  There is search button at the bottom of this page.....Search for "Race" or "ARAC" if you really want to learn something about this, because you are indeed clueless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, EverQuest II was designed for every race and class combination to be perfectly viable.  If you find that your Barbarian is so vastly superior to a Wood Elf that this is not the case, then this should be reported in /bug or /feedback because something is not working as intended.  Either Barbarians need to be nerfed or Wood Elves need to be boosted, because the game was not intended for there to be that vast a difference in races playing the same class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I myself played an Ogre tank in beta to high 20s and made a High Elf tank on release.  There is nothing I cannot do with my High Elf that I could do with the Ogre.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, there are differences in the races and some races are more ideal than other races for being tanks.  That doesn't at all mean that any race is not viable.  Again, if there is ANY race/class combo that is not viable then there is a game imbalance that needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is, if you are concerned with min/maxxing, race matters.  If you aren't then it doesn't.  No more, no less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only "[Removed for Content]" here is you.  You are wrong.  The only "garbage" here is your attitude and incorrect assertions.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>And we find this poster's response valid because... his post count is a huge '1', and ironically within a topic that his primary account's post had sounded weak, pointless, no context whatsoever.  You yourself should get a clue...not tell others to.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>"The only "[Removed for Content]" here is you.  You are wrong.  The only "garbage" here is your attitude and incorrect assertions"<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Being your first post to this topic and within a flame on someone elses oppinion - YOUR attitude stinks.  Name calling, albeit very childish and non-conducive to a conversation, disproves any validity to this topic you might have had.  Your mistakes seem to have started the moment your mouth was allowed to open.  </FONT></P> <P> </P>

[Maldrick]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WabbitHunter wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maldrick wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eneebreated wrote:<BR>well weak paug...I will take your answer (which lacks any substance whatsoever) as an acknowledgment of "you're right, I'm wrong".<BR><BR>thank you for not being stubborn about this.<BR><BR>(seriously...no saracasm here...i mean what could you have even argued if you wanted to? lol)<BR><BR>i love it..."you sir, are clueless"...about what? that a party would never take a wood elf tank over a barbarian tank?<BR><BR>you obviously couldn't answer the question I asked you on the last post, so I see no reason to expect any logical reply to this one lol...<BR><BR>kids today...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, he's absolutely correct.  You are either a clueless newbie or a troll.  I suspect both.  He doesn't have to respond to you because he covered why you are dead wrong in his previous posts as have other posters further back in the thread.  Simply because you have some apparent hostility to the truth doesn't mean people need to repeat themselves.  This was a perfectly nice discussion about min/maxxing a tank vis a vis race until you came along and crapped all over it with your bad attitude and incorrect assumptions and biases.  And you illustrate your own ignorance of EverQuest II with each post you add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not FFXI, DaoC, UltimaOnline, Lineage, or any other game.  It's not even EverQuest.  Your experiences in ANY other game have exactly NO bearing on this game or this game or this discussion.  This is EverQuest II, and if you have been paying any attention at all, which apparently you haven't, this game is designed around EVERY race/class combination being entirely viable.  There is search button at the bottom of this page.....Search for "Race" or "ARAC" if you really want to learn something about this, because you are indeed clueless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, EverQuest II was designed for every race and class combination to be perfectly viable.  If you find that your Barbarian is so vastly superior to a Wood Elf that this is not the case, then this should be reported in /bug or /feedback because something is not working as intended.  Either Barbarians need to be nerfed or Wood Elves need to be boosted, because the game was not intended for there to be that vast a difference in races playing the same class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I myself played an Ogre tank in beta to high 20s and made a High Elf tank on release.  There is nothing I cannot do with my High Elf that I could do with the Ogre.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, there are differences in the races and some races are more ideal than other races for being tanks.  That doesn't at all mean that any race is not viable.  Again, if there is ANY race/class combo that is not viable then there is a game imbalance that needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is, if you are concerned with min/maxxing, race matters.  If you aren't then it doesn't.  No more, no less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only "[Removed for Content]" here is you.  You are wrong.  The only "garbage" here is your attitude and incorrect assertions.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>And we find this poster's response valid because... his post count is a huge '1', and ironically within a topic that his primary account's post had sounded weak, pointless, no context whatsoever.  You yourself should get a clue...not tell others to.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>"The only "[Removed for Content]" here is you.  You are wrong.  The only "garbage" here is your attitude and incorrect assertions"<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Being your first post to this topic and within a flame on someone elses oppinion - YOUR attitude stinks.  Name calling, albeit very childish and non-conducive to a conversation, disproves any validity to this topic you might have had.  Your mistakes seem to have started the moment your mouth was allowed to open.  </FONT></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That was the first time I've found the need to post since Beta.  They reset the post count sometime around release.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless, which part of my post was incorrect, exactly?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't a matter of anyone's opinion.  It is a <EM><STRONG>fact</STRONG></EM> that EverQuest II was designed around every race and class combination being viable.  Your post count, mine, or your opinion of my post or my post count, does not change that <EM><STRONG>fact.</STRONG></EM></DIV><p>Message Edited by Maldrick on <span class=date_text>02-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 PM</span>

[Noah]

<DIV>I feel that race can and does play a huge difference on the end game.  Sta = more hps and quite a few Racial traits can raise resistances to slsh/pierce/crush  - the def skill - and pure hps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i was a troll with my gear and full sta choices + def bonuses at 50... I would easily have 500-700 more hps and 200+ more to resists.  End game 500 hps can make a difference since the heals are so small (DD heals max around 1000 or so) and you need every little bit to stay alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Slades]

<DIV> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0066ff size=4>I’m curious as to what you guys mean by ogres get a 3% racial bonus.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Are you talking about 'Personal Traits' EVERYONE gets at levels 8, 22, 42 that give a 2.5% boost to hp? If not then where can i see some official info on this, thanks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0066ff size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#0066ff size=4>This is what i'm looking at; </FONT><SPAN><FONT color=#0066ff size=4>http://www.eq2arcanum.com/info/TraitsTalents.php</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[Slades]

<DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4>I see, you're talking about the buff Tradition that last 3 mins with a 30min reuse.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4>That isn't really a big deal.  It would be pretty cool if it was a passive ability.  But 3mins for a 3% boost every 30mins? while it is better than nothing, it's hardly a race/class breaker, heh not in the slightest.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4>5,000 hp guardian would get a whopping 150 more hp for 3mins.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4>10,000 hp warrior would get a whopping 300 more hp for 3mins.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0033ff size=4>While not useless since 300>0 but then again not something I would really be concerned with when choosing a race.</FONT></DIV>

[kr8ztwin]

<DIV>Well this thread has really motivated me to make my Ratonga Guardian.  lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes even the comments that race matters.  This is a game and I honestly don't think being uber is a requirement of having fun :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

http://eq2.primagames.com/pdfs/traits.pdfThat is a partial kinda sorta right listWe get to choose 3 racial traits over the levels. One of these for ogre is war ready, a permenent 3% hp boost. So if you are buffed to 8000 HP, this will give you a boose of over 240 hp. Dwarf can also get this, but because of starting stam an ogre has a LITTLE bit more hp then anyone as far as I can dell.Look at noah vs me under eq2 players. He is a 50 half elf in MUCH better gear. I am a 48 ogre. He currently hasStrength 116Agility 91Stamina 111Health 4,455Power 2,009I currently haveStrength 117Agility 107Stamina 121Health 4,689Power 1,911I still have some equipment and levels to go.. but it is pretty clear at 50 I will have a pretty nice HP bonus over him of 400 or so, which will grow as I get mroe buffed up. SOmehow or other I even ended up with more agi then him as a fat ogre, but I guess i have a few nice pieces of gear (gloves give 17 agi)<p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>02-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:08 PM</span>

[Noah]

<DIV>Aye - you will prolly have about 200-300 more hps than I.   I might double check to see that your stats didnt carry over a buff.  The playersite is not current or that accurate.  Not saying you wont have better stats than me at 50 but at 48 I have a hard time believing your over me at this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Nah thats ubuffed. had some good stat items on thoSBD 7 sta 9 agiSSOy: 10 agi 5 strgloves of gloom 17 agiperl kedge 9 sta 11 strhoop of intrique 12 sta/shrug gear does help a lot too..

[Weekapaug]

<DIV>Don't Ogres start (before you click on the guy and choose your archetype) with 25 sta?  That's what Dwarves start with also.  And they get the +5 sta racial tradition as well as the 3% HP one and the +5 Defense one.  Started an Ogre and a Dorf that's what they both had I'm pretty sure....Need to double check that tho.  Sort of surprised actually that dwarves would get the HP one but not, say, trolls and maybe barbs....Kind of curious what their thinking was on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's funny....Since joining this discussion, I keep having in-game experiences where I keep surviving by less than 10 hps.  Last night we were in one of the new instanced dungeons and we wound up having to evac out....One of those bugs where nobody could hit the mobs got us at the beginning of a fight...by the time we got it sorted out and killed the first couple in the group, the healers were oop...eventually we lost our tank (a pally).....He said later if he had another 100 hps he thinks he would have made it as his Lay Hands was mere moments from refreshing.  Makes you think a lot about that extra 3% HPs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real question for me in all this isn't the differences at 50.....Its the differences in a year or two, several expansions from now, when the level limit has been raised to who-knows-what and tanks are running around with double or tripple the HP you can already get at 50 now....That 3% could mean a lot more than just a couple hundred hps.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Yah dwarf ogre troll barb all seem good in some way to tank.As i said before, I am not going to say OMG ogre has 1 more hp then troll, ogre wins.But I will say being a gnome or rat tank is a pretty poor choice.

[Pandergosk Pie'Voluti]

Oh, and BTW, yes its pander from torv <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pandergosk Pie'Voluti]

Also, I thought trolls had higher sta than ogres? Ogres get higher str than trolls

[Raea]

<DIV>trolls get 30 STA, but done get any of the good fighter racial traditions...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xanus]

Best race for a guardian? Well, and let me preface by saying I'm only doing this for the min/maxers here. I firmly believe you should play the race that suits you. However, if you're a min/maxer and want the optimal race....That's easy. Human is the best race for a guardian followed by Ogre and then it becomes a jumble after that. The reason why I say human and ogre is because those are the only 2 races that both get 2 racial traditions that add to defense skill in addition to your other guardian skills. The other races only get 1 and some of the races don't get any. Humans are slightly better than Ogres because they start out with higher INT. INT plays a role in damage mitigation. It affects parry/block rates. Your main job as a tank is to hold aggro and absorb/mitigate damage and humans do the best job at taking/avoiding the punishment followed closely by ogres. Ogres only fall behind because they start with a tad bit less INT. By the way Guardians, if you've been taking all the stam/str trainings instead of the INT trainings you better hope for a reset. Having 100 more health won't help as much as parrying a hit for 1k damage instead. By the way ever wonder why the devs put INT on your shields and your 1H's and your 2H weapons and some special quest reward higher end dual wielders like the ykesha and Pine dagger? They were just being stupid weren't they?

[Jesper]

<blockquote><hr>Xanusus wrote:Best race for a guardian? Well, and let me preface by saying I'm only doing this for the min/maxers here. I firmly believe you should play the race that suits you. However, if you're a min/maxer and want the optimal race....That's easy. Human is the best race for a guardian followed by Ogre and then it becomes a jumble after that. The reason why I say human and ogre is because those are the only 2 races that both get 2 racial traditions that add to defense skill in addition to your other guardian skills. The other races only get 1 and some of the races don't get any. Humans are slightly better than Ogres because they start out with higher INT. INT plays a role in damage mitigation. It affects parry/block rates. Your main job as a tank is to hold aggro and absorb/mitigate damage and humans do the best job at taking/avoiding the punishment followed closely by ogres. Ogres only fall behind because they start with a tad bit less INT. By the way Guardians, if you've been taking all the stam/str trainings instead of the INT trainings you better hope for a reset. Having 100 more health won't help as much as parrying a hit for 1k damage instead. By the way ever wonder why the devs put INT on your shields and your 1H's and your 2H weapons and some special quest reward higher end dual wielders like the ykesha and Pine dagger? They were just being stupid weren't they?<hr></blockquote>Sounds like your maxing your melee mitigation based on int. I would hazard that if the int bonus is just as good as say the agi bonus (prenerf) then your setting yourself up for a nerf.Going stamina is the safest path to take. Does not matter if its melee or magic. Cause your building your character to endure anything. I was not aware about the int having an effect on parry. Is this speculation on your part or something thats been parsed to be true ? There is some very high int and wis on our crafted gear so the stats should matter. Otherwise why add int to it ??Would be nice if int and wis did have an impact on parry/block. Would give the more intelligent races a edge to offset their lower melee stats. More flavor is good in my book.

[Xanus]

Int does affect parry/block rate. Wis affects spell avoidance which is why you see it alot on your shields. INT is on all your 1H's, 2H's, shields, and special duallies like the ykesha. Wis=spell avoidance , Int= melee avoidance. And yeah I have parsed this quite a bit. Having higher INT increases your parry/block rate quite a bit. The ability to parry/block a 1k hit is far more important than having 300 or so more hp and taking that hit. I'm sure I'll be flammed for going against the norm but INT is ALOT more important than the devs let us in on prerelease. I doubt they will nerf INT since as a fighter you guys really can't pump it up too high anyways and goto the extreme with it like people were able to do with agi and str. Take a good look at your shield and ask yourself why it has uber INT/WIS on it when priests and casters can't even use it. Take a good look at your weapon and ask yourself why it has INT on it when a caster can't even use it. It's farely obvious.Hey if you doubt me, don't flame me(I'm not suggesting you did. This is just for the other flamers who will get on here and do it). Prove me wrong. Grab your illusionist buddy and beef up your gear with INT items and have the illusionist give you his 42INT buff and other INT buff and go parse a fight with a ^^green. Then switch back to your regular setup and have the illusionist remove his INT buffs and go fight the same green again. You'll parry/block quite a bit more with higher INT than without it.<p>Message Edited by Xanusus on <span class=date_text>02-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

[Solkarr]

<DIV>Well, gotta be higher con than a green ^^, since most green ^^ can't hit me in the first place.  Agil might have gotten nerfed but still plays a huge roll.  I stand by my choice, vah shir (ie Kerra) have a wonderful balance of str, agil, and stam, with some nice agil racial options.  Plus I found i run out of power WAY more often than hps, 5 power regen option is great, as it works even during battle (Unlike food regen) - just use the player HUD to see.  I guard my group better again power draining mobs if I regen power faster and can keep agro (some can drain  1k power in 20 seconds).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The key is to know your racial strengths, and use them in your favor.  If you chose more hps/defense play like you have it.  If you chose more agil and regen, count on the regen and you can use more power and parry more hits, etc etc.  (and if int and wis help, woot, if not no big deal, I am stuck with them on things like shields and helmets anyhow)</DIV>

[Pandergosk Pie'Voluti]

Good breakdown of racial traditions here: http://eq2.primagames.com/pdfs/traits.pdf

[Obmarbe]

min/max is dumbI play a gnome - and I MT all the time - raid mobs as well with no problems.Does that mean I don't wish the devs gave me something useful to choose as a guardian? sure i do. am i that worried about it? no

[Thunderbr]

<DIV>Bottom line is race matters a lot in the early game...up to about lvl 20...then each 10 levels passed diminishes proportionally.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

<blockquote><hr>Thunderbrew wrote:<DIV>Bottom line is race matters a lot in the early game...up to about lvl 20...then each 10 levels passed diminishes proportionally.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Totally not true. Ogre is always 5 defense and 3% hp over races x-y. It matters JUST as much at end game.. i have like 500hp over those fragile humans.

[Swiller_Alesba]

<DIV>I'm playing a dorf guardian and at level 45 I have no complaints. Choose the +5 DEF and 3% hp pool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One drawback is being short in stature...makes it a bit harder to see what is going on, but DE mask or stones can easily change that, as well as kicking the view back a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swiller Alesbane</DIV> <DIV>45 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Everfrost</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>You heard it here folks, everyone delete your character and roll your cookie cutter ogre guardian now.  Because there ain't nothing like being like everybody else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally 3% means jack.  I would prefer to be unique than to have slightly higher HP.  Anybody who chooses Ogre because of this are simply sheep.  If you choose ogre for other reasons fine, but don't be sheeple.  That is unless you feel you need that little bit extra to help offset your subpar skills, then go ahead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Choose the character you want to play, it makes a difference in the beginning, but the further you progress, the less difference it makes.  Yes there is a difference, no it does not matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sylvo]

<DIV>Sorry to reply if this thread is dead and on the way out -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wanted to stick in my 2cp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a DE guardian I have found that my stats are slightly lacking in the sta/str field. I have always felt secure in my choice as a DE guardian however from the perspective that, as there is no CH, the extra (for example) 300hp that a ogre may have on top of my hp's is more than negated if with my extra agi I dodge one more attack than he would have. His 300hp counts only once per fight my extra dodge/parry/whatever counts every single time I dont get hit that he would have. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not trying to say that anyone race is better than any other, I just think that assuming you are a better tank than someone else based purely on the race you chose is arrogant to say the least. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people say that a guardians role is to take damage not avoid, all I know is that I know who my regular inquisitor prefers to have tanking for him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Farhane</DIV> <DIV>Tides of Destiny</DIV> <DIV>Guk Server.</DIV>

[labi]

<DIV>Once agian as everyone is saying lower end it does matter a little bit but as a 45 woodelf guardian i can tank just as good if not better then troll/ogre/dwarf class with = or + hp. Its all good thought i still want to see the troll bards in pink armor i was hearing so much about</DIV>

[kr8ztwin]

<DIV>well just for fun after readin this thread I made my Ratonga Warrior.  I also boosted INT/AGIL and all I can say is he is diiirty fun.  I solo'd ^^ green mobs with little/no downtime and am still doing it at lvl 20 (berserker) now although some mobs are a little more difficult so I stick to lower lvl ^^.  I could also take out  orange con mobs when I was 19 even with the T3 boost they have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'll see how well I do in later levels.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

<blockquote><hr>kr8ztwin wrote:<DIV>well just for fun after readin this thread I made my Ratonga Warrior. I also boosted INT/AGIL and all I can say is he is diiirty fun. I solo'd ^^ green mobs with little/no downtime and am still doing it at lvl 20 (berserker) now although some mobs are a little more difficult so I stick to lower lvl ^^. I could also take out orange con mobs when I was 19 even with the T3 boost they have.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We'll see how well I do in later levels.</DIV><hr></blockquote>AS fat ogre can solo whites at level 20, its closer to 25 before soloing group mobs takes 10 minutes from lack of dps.

[kr8ztwin]

<DIV>heh I went serker but this is where the race post is so here goes.  I upgraded at 20 to max eq and dual giant picks.  I then hit Fallen Gate and started on the green^^.  I never got hit....I was like hrmmmm.  So I tested further and pulled 5 green ^^'s on me.  I think I got hit 2 times heh.  I moved to the blue^^ still rarely got hit.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok bad news....blue^^ casters and white^^ kicked my little rat butt.  I did however, enjoy the hell out of leveling to 21 in no-time.  I am sure this will even out and be less effective at 25ish but hell yeah I'm havin fun with super-rat.</DIV>

[AngelR]

<DIV>There is a particular point you can get to where a mob gives exp but is too low to hit you.  It seems to happen most in late teens, early twenties, and the magic number seems to be 4 (ie. being 4 levels higher than the mob.  5 makes them grey).  My wizard was soloing green^^s for exp (mostly scarecrows), and scarcely getting hit.  Now, a wizard is by no means a defensive powerhouse, yet there you have it (and I don't think INT had much to do with it... I wasn't seeing a heck of a lot of parrying going on).  So, I think this thing about soloing green group mobs is less a factor of race, and more to do with how the combat coding factors in large differences in levels.  (Being 22 and killing level 18 crows means that I'm within the range to get exp as far as that bit of code is concerned, but it's still a >20% difference in level.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we start talking about the 30's or higher, then yeah, being able to take those green^^ mobs is impressive because that 4 levels equates to a much smaller difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize that this is getting off topic, but I just wanted to point it out, as some folks are using the ability to solo said mobs in the low 20's as proof positive that their race is the best (or as good as, whichever the argument may be).</DIV>