.

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

I don't use any of the gaurd spells and do just fine. Maybe a berserker in the same gear and level with 1 hander would be better but maybe not. I hold agro just fine in all situations.

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 PM</span>

[Ryan]

A majority of our protection skills that I have come across so far do take awhile to cast but most of them last a decent amount of time. I think they were meant to be cast as buffs before an engagement not as spur of the moment life savers.I usually single out cleric or chanter and cast Intervene, Sentinel and whatever else to insure their safety just in case of aggro mismanagement.

[Goldenpaw]

<DIV>I agree with you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plain and Simple, the guardian as it stands seems broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have a Berserker in our static party and its beyond frustrating to be pressing all the taunts you can as quick as you can, and watch him just take hate right off you.  So then he controls his DPS and anger, and you are now the tank, and when you do lose hate (albiet rarely) your cleric or enchanter -does- get hit, and you go to protect him, it takes 5 seconds to cast, more than enough time for him/her to be dead...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, I feel like we are pretty gimped...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If I had known what I know now, I would of played -something- else, be it Paladin or Berserker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I picked this class to NOT do DPS to NOT heal myself, but to TAKE HATE, HOLD HATE, AND LET OTHERS GET THE GLORY...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I  feel pretty worthless when really I am just a pitiful dps who is absorbing a spot in the party.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Goldenpaw on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 AM</span>

[Benderla]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Guys - let me tell you something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>first of all - a tank in the classic sense isnt a damage dealer.  So - dont talk to me about dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>second of all - why would you cast your protection spells on someone AFTER they have taken damage - the whole point is you try to prevent the damage in the first place... common sense would suggest that you cast the spell before the damage takes place!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thirdly - if you are pulling, and drop into hold the line - you will not lose aggro.  Give it a try.  it just wont happen.  Its crazy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Incidentally - if you are going to try to mitigate damage to someone in the group - dont do it to the cleric - do it to a shamen.  They seem to get all the aggro with thier wards.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Les]

<DIV>2 words: Hold The Line</DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

You are missing the point. A beserker can out taunt us but he will die shortly after. I've seen what happens to Zerkers with agro and it isn't pretty. Further - Beserkers are the ONLY people I have trouble staying ahead in aggro with. This is because bloodlust is broken and generates too much hate - they don't do nearly the dmg of assassins or wizards its just a broken skill.Before grouping with a zerker over 23 I warn them - do not use bloodlust until I have atleast 20 seconds to use all my taunts and HTL and built aggro enough that you won't get the mob on you. Even then it is iffy. Either way the zerker is the one taking hits and he is wearing full plate so its usually ok but not great.I have absolutely zero trouble keeping aggro with any of the other 22 classes in the game. It is quite easy actually. Even when I group with 3 or 4 wizards (my current favorite group) and we do groups of monsters and just AoE constantly I can maintain aggro.Try this:pull with Anger, Shout, then Hold the Line / Taunting Challenge, finally use Bury / Taunting BlowUse rallying Cry, Guardian't Call, and your other buffs, repeat Anger, Shout, Taunting BlowHunker down. =)

[GenesisForgot]

Oh and we have far more - reliable - hate generation then a Beserker. I use that same setup every single fight and unless there is a beserker in the group I simply will not lose aggro. That's on multi-mob encounters and 3 or 4 wizards dropping AoE the ENTIRE fight. (1 healer, 25 guardian, and 4 wizards/assassins/rangers is best group I've found) With a single enemy I can pull with anger and just let off an occassional shout or anger with my HTL up and not even worry about it. Beserkers are the only ones giving me problems so obviously something is up with their hate generation NOT ours. Also - Rescue doesn't seem to work on beserkers because the second you hit it they pass you in hate anyways. LOL

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[Sadv]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> God_of_Avalon wrote:<BR> <DIV>DANG you guys just don't seem to get it do you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hello, Zerkers have hold line also.  You guys act like hold line is our special guardian only spell.  I will repeat, zerkers can out taunt hence save and gaurd better then us.  Please take note that they get hold the line also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if a cleric is taking hits and dying fast I'm supposed to be like, hey zerker dont use bloodrage I wouldn't want you to save the clerics life, let me try and fail.  I can see it now "hey zerker you are putting me to shame guarding and saving the healers with your uber tauants, please do not gain so much aggro as you are taking the job of my broken class."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Brenderline, wake up and connect the dots.  I was talking about DPS in regards to taunt off to "guard" other players, not because I want to be a DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Genisis, you act like zerkers tank like wizards when in reality they are awsome tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AGAIN, A ZERKER HAS SUPERIOR TAUNT (YES THEY HAVE HOLD LINE TOO) AND WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO GUARDING A PLAYER TO SAVE ITS LIFE, A ZERKERS SUPERIOR TAUNT WILL MAKE HIM A BETTER "GAURD" THEN A GUARDIAN.  YOU GUYS KEEP MISSING THE POINT OVER AND OVER AND OVER.  TELLING THE ZERKER TO EASE UP ON HIS TAUNT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT HIM TO PULL A MOB OFF THE CLERIC IS REDICULOUS.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>why would the berzerker be taunting? who cares if they have hold the line, as well, they shouldn't be using it grouped with a Guardian.  In a group with you they shouldn't be using ANY taunt, (unless assigned to pull the cleric out of the fire, then giving up the hate to you)  they should be doing dps, which is their role.  Sure they can tank too, they are a warrior class after all.  but they aren't guardians and can't take a beating like a guardian can. </P> <P>Let them take aggro off the cleric, but then you should get it back.  If they keep on taunting, they are doing your group a disservice by splitting the clerics attention.  Once he has the mob taunted off the cleric you should get the hate back from him.  </P> <P> If the people you grouping with can't see that then maybe you should leave them to fixing the electrical outlet with a fork and find some people to group with that can utilize you.</P> <P>Play your guardian however you want to play him, but seems to me what you complain about works itself out once the people you group with learn to play their class.  I know that's a lot to hope for.</P> <P> </P>

[Gra]

<DIV>So let me see if I can "connect the dots".  A guardian sucks because he can't "peel" mobs as fast as a Berserker in an unusual situation?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm </DIV> <DIV>Well guardians can't mezz either so I guess they must REALLY suck. </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never have problems with my guardian, but then again I'm in a guild and we have voice comm's up all the time.  I hardly ever loose aggro, and when I do I throw up Sentinal or Defend on the person who grabs aggro, this helps me get aggro back almost immediately along with a Shout or 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are competing for aggro your group is not being efficient at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A bad group doesn't mean the class is bad, it means the PLAYER is bad.  I read on these boards every day that guardians can't hold taunt, can't tank, and in general are broken.  Well the only time I've had problems is when I was trying to craft and adventure at the same time and allowed my abilities or gear lag behind my level (i.e. green/grey gear).  I'm a sword/board guardian and I must say that I am effective at what I do ABSORB DAMAGE, my DPS sucks but hey you can't have everything.  If you are having problems try changing tactics.....try looking at what your abilities do (we have an attack which lowers the amount of damage that a mobs "special" attack does...did you know that?) or try changing your tactics.  If that fails then try changing classes, this one ain't for you.</DIV>

[Goldenpaw]

<DIV>g_o_a</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can not believe how many people are missing the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People read what they want to read instead of what is written.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your throughts aren't going on deaf ears from all of us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I couldn't agree more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read what he is writing, its a -logical- problem people, not a passionate problem...  Its not about who plays what class, how you hold your sword, I play better than you, its Fact A - Fact B - Fact C.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least it is in my eyes.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Goldenpaw on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[ColdFusionWi]

<DIV>I guess I don't see any problems with Guardians right now.  Yeah I can't always absorb as much damage as I'd like to but we can't have everything.  A very high percentage of the success rate of the battles I've seen are determined before the first taunt is thrown, first swing of the axe/sword, or first spell cast.  Since I'm the one who pulls in my group I always make sure that if there is even a remote chance of failure that everyone "buffs up", it's just a good habbit to get into.  And I always make sure to cast my protection skills well in advance of any battle on my healer(s).  I've also learned, as I'm sure all of you have, that it's easier to get aggro right off the bat then try to get it off someone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I too have been in groups where the dps takes over aggro.  What I usually do is rethink my approach.  If we are in a sound group and everyone is doing their job then to be honest I shouldn't have to do any damage at all and my sole purpose is to taunt, shout, hold the line.  Basically if I see that we are easily able to hold our own I stop doing damage altogether and just maintain aggro.</DIV>

[Gra]

<DIV>His "facts" don't match my "facts" therefore I reserve the right to disagree with him.  I don't loose aggro unless someone is doing something wrong (i.e. the rogue chaining off his solo HO's for 125+ hits), I don't go down in 3 seconds unless we pull half the zone (i.e. Firemyst before we knew how to dig up the graves), and I don't try to out DPS anyone (its not my job).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes, I guess his complaints are falling on deaf ears, but the "passion" and "facts" here you refer to may be reversed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally don't think the guardian class sucks....but hey I like being a defensive tank.</DIV>

[Xter]

<DIV>I've out tanked and out taunted every other tank I've played with since day one.  Think outside the box.  Not every skill you have can only be used in one way, and not all your skills are going to be the most effective every time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its nice to see they finaly made a Fighter that you have to think about when playing.  </DIV>

[Anker Steadfast]

<DIV>I have mostly the same experience of the game as Xterra - I have aggro till I die, unless we just got some silly add or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am, however, also a bit disappointed by the guardian intervene skills - I'll try and sum it up :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) It's a buff, with casting time .. thus you have to cast it *before the fight* since it's bad during the fight. </DIV> <DIV>2) You do not know in advance who will be hit, thus making it hard to use the intervene type skill.</DIV> <DIV>3) Short duration ... seriously, make it a Conc. based one. Or at least make it fast to cast.</DIV> <DIV>4) I'd rather have prevention than a cure ... and intervene skills is a cure type skill.</DIV> <DIV>5) If you want to cast it during a fight, you have to switch targets .. which is a <STRONG>B</STRONG>ad <STRONG>T</STRONG>hing (tm) since I am usually main assist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, I'd rather have a buff I could put on someone, which then would share some of his hate with me.</DIV> <DIV>That would be befitting of a Guardian.</DIV>

[Yennik]

<DIV>The guard spells work great if you use them on another guardian in the group who is main tanking.  However if your the tank then you never need to use them, just use taunt insted and keep all mobs on you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS</DIV> <DIV>you don't have to target the person to "cast" guard type spells on them.  As long as your on the mob that is attacking the other player it will automaticaly cast it on that mobs target.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yennik on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Xter]

<DIV> <DIV>PS</DIV> <DIV>you don't have to target the person to "cast" guard type spells on them.  As long as your on the mob that is attacking the other player it will automaticaly cast it on that mobs target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow, thats good to know!  Thanks!</DIV></DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

I just dinged 26 and in 5 levels have YET to lose agro to anybody but a bezerker - especially a healer. If you aren't generating enough hate then your character has problems or you do. I have upgraded all my skills to adept 1 or app 3 and use a skullcrusher. I just don't see where your trouble with taunt is coming from.

[JHappycl]

<DIV>I think the same as well. As soon as I join a group, I use all of my protection abilities. With Stand firm on the cleric/healer, then intervene on a caster, and then the other on another caster. They work really well too. My shaman was actually gaining health while being attacked by a green mob. I may lose taunt once in a while, but it's because I let it happen, and I hardly use hold the line unless we get jumped by a number of mobs. I don't understand how you're losing aggro. </DIV>

[ScreenMonkey]

<DIV>I agree hold the line is the way to go with that on i can usualy keep agro pretty well.  My problem is tuants i have anger and shout right now as a 22 guardian.  I think they should make tuants draw more hate cause i have a hard time pulling mobs off of my casters and healers.  An also they  should increase the range of the taunts cause when i'm in hold the line and it runs off after my mage friend who sits back and long bombs i can't get it cause its out of taunt range.  Anyone else have this problem with taunts also with out hold the line i can't keep agro at all with just my taunts alone cause sees the healer always no matter how many times i shout or anger the healer seems to get more hate.  My anger is adept 1 and my shout is app 3 so do i just need to upgrade or you think my taunts are bugged lol.</DIV>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>I think we need a non power taunt (either single tgt or ae).  Being OOP, which happens in long fights or if you get adds, can be very frustrating... and even more so if you have HTL on.  Poor healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Moralpanic]

<blockquote><hr>Benderlane wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>why would you cast your protection spells on someone AFTER they have taken damage - the whole point is you try to prevent the damage in the first place... common sense would suggest that you cast the spell before the damage takes place!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><hr></blockquote>You obviously don't even play a Guardian, so why are you even in this thread?But to answer your 'common sense', it's because these buffs are single target buffs, and some of them take up concentration. How are you going to buff beforehand if you don't know who's going to be getting aggro?

[Belce]

<DIV>Also our concentration buffs take alot of our concentration to keep up as well.  </DIV>

[Hastur Bloodwa]

<blockquote><hr>Lesch wrote:<DIV>2 words: Hold The Line</DIV><hr></blockquote>That's three words, at least it is where I went to school.

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"why would the berzerker be taunting? who cares if they have hold the line, as well, they shouldn't be using it grouped with a Guardian.  In a group with you they shouldn't be using ANY taunt, (unless assigned to pull the cleric out of the fire, then giving up the hate to you)  they should be doing dps, which is their role.  Sure they can tank too, they are a warrior class after all.  but they aren't guardians and can't take a beating like a guardian can.  <P>Let them take aggro off the cleric, but then you should get it back.  If they keep on taunting, they are doing your group a disservice by splitting the clerics attention.  Once he has the mob taunted off the cleric you should get the hate back from him.  </P> <P> If the people you grouping with can't see that then maybe you should leave them to fixing the electrical outlet with a fork and find some people to group with that can utilize you.</P> <P>Play your guardian however you want to play him, but seems to me what you complain about works itself out once the people you group with learn to play their class.  I know that's a lot to hope for."</P> <P>Easier said than done, damage is king.  Berserkers don't even need to taunt to gain or hold aggro.  Maybe their skill is broken, I don't know.  After Soldier's Stance you have 2 Con bars left.  You could place Intervene on a Cleric or Ench, take your pick and hope you get lucky with who you picked, but then you won't be able to use any of the other "Guardian" line.  And trying to get aggro back is practically impossible.  Yes you "should" be able to get aggro back but it's practically impossible.  Maybe if I told the Berserker to stop doing damage so I could MT the mob again?  Sure....</P></DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"You are missing the point. A beserker can out taunt us but he will die shortly after. I've seen what happens to Zerkers with agro and it isn't pretty."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Totally untrue.  As of 26 this isn't the case. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"Before grouping with a zerker over 23 I warn them - do not use bloodlust until I have atleast 20 seconds to use all my taunts and HTL and built aggro enough that you won't get the mob on you. Even then it is iffy. Either way the zerker is the one taking hits and he is wearing full plate so its usually ok but not great."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny.  If I was any other class and in your exp group I would boot you simply for slowing the entire group down.</DIV>

[Aslii]

<DIV>as a Guardian i don't have any probleme keeping agro on mobs, even if there are 4 or more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I often group with berserk and i have no pb with them, as long as they know how to play = means they don't cast taunt (**ZOMG** would they use taunt for ?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And btw don't say berserk tank as well as guardian because this is not true. Take the same lvl guardian/berserk with the same lvl equipment and u'll see that the berserk will be dead in no time.</DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"And btw don't say berserk tank as well as guardian because this is not true. Take the same lvl guardian/berserk with the same lvl equipment and u'll see that the berserk will be dead in no time."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as of 26 it is.  A 24 Ogre Berserker tanked equally as well as my 26 Troll Guardian.</DIV>

[Aslii]

<DIV>"I would boot you simply for slowing the entire group down"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy: this is a funny one, do u think your bloodust buff will change anything if you cast it a few seconde after engage the mob ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And stop thinking berserk is the ultimate class ! in EQ1 they where useless, in EQ2 they are good dps but you can replace them by any other dps class... it won't change anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aslii]

<DIV>"A 24 Ogre Berserker tanked equally as well as my 26 Troll Guardian."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in wich zone are you playing ? what where you tanking ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'm sorry again but if you ask the clerics point of vue i'm sure they will prefere a Guardian as MT than a berserk... Guardian are less mana-consuming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anybody can tank, depends of the number of healer you have behind you :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> this is a funny one, do u think your bloodust buff will change anything if you cast it a few seconde after engage the mob ?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not following you....</DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"i'm sorry again but if you ask the clerics point of vue i'm sure they will prefere a Guardian as MT than a berserk... Guardian are less mana-consuming."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes, they have plenty of mana when they're dead.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lord_Onion on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>" in EQ1 they where useless, in EQ2 they are good dps but you can replace them by any other dps class... it won't change anything."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ya, replace the Guardian with them.</DIV>

[Benderla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> God_of_Avalon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Situation:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are in a group.  For the last 8 hours you have been keeping aggro just fine on 1000s of mobs.  But. . .  . even though you have been doing a great job tanking, on this one particular pull things go bad.  Cleric has to chain heal and obtains uber aggro.  Oh no, cleric is losing hitpoints fast and is out of mana.  We both use "hold the line" along with every other taunt spell because the whole goal is just simply to save the clerics life!  Zerker with his superior taunt gains the aggro and hence was the better "gaurd" of the cleric because he "guarded" him from the mob by taking the aggro.  The zerker is a better guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) Telling me to use "hold the line" a spell that zerkers also get does NOT make me better then him at "guarding" players becuase he also has that spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) Telling a zerker to hold back on his blood rage and other taunting skills is just plain silly because at this point and time the cleric needs to get the mob off of it the quickest way possible, and if that involves zerker taunting off then that is what should be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys need to admitt that when it comes to "guarding" other people, the uber taunter who can pull off the mob off the player needing guarding is the best guard.  Telling the zerker to hold back on taunting because I don't want him to save the clerics life is very unreasonable.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please do not give me tips on aggro because 99% of the time I hold aggro just fine.  I am talking about a freak situation which requires a player to "guard" another player if things go bad.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>actually - id hit HTL, then immediately use the level 21 damage mitigation spell on the cleric.</P> <P>Its amazing to watch my health take a massive pounding while the cleric is the one getting whacked on.  Of course the 3 hits it would take to kill the cleric becomes about 15 + for me - but thats really unimportant.  The cleric stays alive, I take its damage.</P> <P>You, as a zerker, have a low level version of this spell that worked fine at low levels, but it only took SOME of the damage.  I can mitigate most of it.  Its almost like being a healer - for a short period of time, except its a zero sum heal.</P> <P>I dont necessarily survive this though, because the cleric is still getting interrupted (because while im taking 90% of the damage he/she would, they are still getting hit) but the rest of the group can immediately spam the crap out of whatever is hitting the cleric and kill it.</P> <P>If i die, oh well, the cleric didnt.  Tough.</P>

[Benderla]

<DIV>even if you can taunt off an aggroed cleric (assume spamheal, and just TRY to do it) the cleric will still take damage while you are attempting this.  So hence, you havnt done a thing to actually GUARD the cleric from damage - you have just let it take massive hits while you try to get aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once i have the mitigation down, by the way, If I can taunt ANY mob into hitting me, I start building hate for the whole group encounter - if its not a group its a different story - so if i can get one to attack me, I can go right back to the one thats hitting on the cleric, and start taunting the crap out of it.  Every hit on my back in HTL adds hate - every taunt adds hate, every hit addes hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If along the way, the zerker can pull aggro from that single mob off the cleric - then the zerker has done its job - but so have I  - I prevented massive trauma to the cleric in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers.</DIV>

[Benderla]

not to be redundant - but please see my comment about public whining.

[orchidslyr]

<DIV>Sorry to tell you guys this but the original post is dead on.  You guys are busted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 25 Berzker and I have problems NOT getting aggro constantly, to the point now that I don't care what level the main tank is, if there are 2 healers in the group I am MT.   Its simply silly to swap aggro back and forth with a guardian, and I refuse to not play my class because Guardians are busted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Hold the Line on no guardian near my level will be able to consistently hold aggro.   Its just a fact.  You can taunt and run HTL and do whatever else you want, but I am going to zerk about 30 times a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bloodlust and/or Bloodrage is not busted, its a buff.  We have 3 other skills that cause the zerk state as well, and every time the zerk procs, its considered a buff.   Buffs generate hate.  On top of that are dps is indeed very near if not higher then some rogue classes and monks, but not as consistent.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your class needs looking into and I hope you get buffed, as you need it.  I simply hope it doesnt come at the expense of zerks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck brothers in arms.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>**never post on your GF's computer!**</DIV><p>Message Edited by orchidslyric on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

Nay. I have held aggro with 4 wizards equal/higher level AoEing a group of mobs. I held aggro on the entire encounter for the duration of the fight. We did this for hours on owlbears. I have held aggro on assassins. I have held agro on rangers.I don't lose aggro to a single class EXCEPT consistantly to zerkers who overuse certain skills. I played with a zerker yesterday and we tried some stuff and found a balance where she didn't get aggro anymore and I kept aggro. This was good because I can tank a lot better than she.As a Berserker you should NOT: cast rallying cry, call of command, or other group buffs because they generate massive hate and the guardian's use them as Taunts so let the guardian cast them. You should also WAIT to use your bloodlust. If an assassin or wizard immediately unloads all their spells on a mob they will gain aggro. They are smart and don't do this. Zerkers have a problem with this. Just WAIT [Removed for Content]' 5 seconds or so til I can get some hate and then go to town on the bloodlust - which BTW is the ONLY skill that has insane aggro generation to the point of screwing up the guardian.I don't think the zerker is broken. I don't know exactly the dmg output but I am sure assassins/rangers/wizards are considerably higher because they are specialized to do that alone. The only thing messed up is aggro generation on Bloodlust. You can turn bloodlust on and not even use any other skill and sometimes not even hit a mob and it will aggro you. Something is out of balance considering the other 22 classes present no dilema to a Guardian.

[Mig]

Nothing is broken. Berserkers are supposed to be able to generate more hate then guardians. Period. Read what the trainer says to you in the game, read the documentation in the prima guide, and read the documentation in the game manual and on the website.Berserkers are all about hate building and damage. Guardians are all about protection, and damage resistance. We SHOULD be having major problems keeping agro from a berserker if that berserker is using his abilities. The trade off for this damage and hate is that more healing power is needed.

[Mig]

Also the arguement that Guardians are the best tanks is a flawed one, when all the classes are supposed to be balanced. Will every tank be the same in every situation? No... but on average, all the fighter classes are supposed to get the job done. Maybe one needs more DPS backing it up, or more healing power, or whatever... they are all supposed to be equally viable. The "I'm not the best tank! Guardians suck" argument is getting really lame. If you don't like the class go re-roll, and stop making the rest of us look bad.

[GenesisForgot]

the classes really are not all equal at tanking - at all. maybe they were intended to be but that's not how its working in game.

[SrPoopiepan]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I think  Guardian's could use a slight upgrade in our taunt.  SInce we do less DPS then the other fighter classes it would only make sense for us to have a better taunt line.  Zerkers can use their bezerk bloodfrenzy to generate hate, we have to rely on taunts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Abingot]

<DIV>I'm sorry but seriously....NO ONE else thinks all this lame "My class is busted, this class is busted, your class is busted" garbage based on mid twenties gameplay is just a wee bit premature???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get the feeling when newer players pipe up with this crap a year from now they'll be skewered as newbs and told to actually get into the thirties or forties before they start posting like they know all about their class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ 1 all the classes had high points and low points at various level ranges and the only thing that really mattered is how everything ended up at the high end.  I'd like to hear from some beta players who had some genuine experience with various classes in the 40-50 range, or even 30-40 rather than all this from people who don't realize the only difference between a 'zerker and a guardian is 6 levels out of 30.  That's 30 folks, you're not even halfway along and you really think you have all these 'facts' you can call a class broken with?  If you were a Dev and you had someone test a class out for 6 whole levels outta 30 would you really take them seriously when they told you they were gimped?  Maybe there is a problem, maybe there isn't.  The only FACT is that NO ONE knows yet except perhaps a few beta players and the Devs.  If Guardians are sub par in the twenties (which is in doubt) but come into their own in the thirties would you think it worth your time to adress as a Dev with everything else they have on their plates?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How bout you get some real facts, some honest testing under your belts and leave the drama at the door.</DIV>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:12 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 PM</span>

[RanariusEQ]

<DIV>For you guardians that say you NEVER lose agro, I have a question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you group with wizards that unleash their BEST nukes first thing in the fight?</DIV> <DIV>Do you group with assassins who use their HIGHEST dmg backstab first thing in the fight?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If so, then I would have to agree with the original poster, something is wrong with the zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you can NOT keep agro while grouping with these types of wizards or assassin, then I would disagree with this original poster.</DIV> <DIV>This game is huge on agro management.  I admit I am not that high level yet, but it is common knowledge that assassins and wizards should not unleash their best stuff early in the fight, they wait till mid battle or so then give it their all.  If this is the case, why shouldn't a zerker have to wait a little while before giving it his all too?  I hope this is clear.  All I'm saying is that all classes are used to being able to deal with agro management because of how it worked in EQ1, and it's mostly the same.  Just view the zerker as a high DPS and don't unleash your best early on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like to hear about a guardian and wizard duo fighting for agro.  Which of the two would keep agro if they were TRYING to get agro?  My guess is wizard....if I am wrong, ignore this entire post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ran</DIV>

[Abingot]

<DIV>Actually God of Avalon, it's your assumption that you have a firm grasp of the highs and lows of a class after playing 6 levels out of 30 that makes no sense.  It's no wonder that you can't understand why I think it's ridiculous to call Guardians broken when you fail to grasp how little we know about ALL of the classes at the moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone who played EQ or alot of other MMO's should be able to understand that it's not, 'Oh joy I hit lvl 50 etc'.  If guardian still clearly had problems at 35 then you'd have alot more to stand on to say the class needed a boost.  For all you know the class blows at 20-30, is ok at 30-40 and owns 40-50.  Some would say that's worth it, especially if for instance Berserkers were pretty good 20-30, equal at 30-40 and clearly inferior at 40-50.  Then would you still be sitting here saying they own?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is simple, you have NO facts and you cannot possibly know enough about how good or bad ANY class is by playing one to 26.  Argue it all you want, I seriously seriously doubt any Dev's will be jumpin to address your 'issue' as, for every person who's tried to say Guardians suck, there has been one to say they don't.  Berserkers pulling aggro from me is imho not even close to resembling a reason to say my class is 'broken'.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you've shown is that the trend of 'grass is greener' syndrome is alive and well in this MMO also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps-</DIV> <DIV>  I played a wizard to the mighty level of 26 in EQ and I would have hardly said she was great.  There were definitely bigger imbalances in certain respects to what she could do compared to some of the other classes. If I had cried on the forums that 'wizards were broken' I'd have been laughed right out because 26 is absolutely in no way far enough along to have much of an idea as to how a class really works.  There were alot of people unhappy with the class but for reasons not even resembling anything I would have complained about at 26 because the game at 26 and the game at 46 is drastically different.  You do realize how many different skills you will have by then?  Even by 36?  You KNOW at 26 that you won't be better by 36?  Alot of people liked their Wizards by the time they hit 50, or 60.  Alot hated them.  Alot of people liked their 'insert class here'.  Alot hated them.  I was just fine with my wizard at 60-65, and what I 'knew' at 26 about them I can look back on and laugh.  You couldn't even Quad at 26.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do yourself a favor and just play the game without worrying about the Berserkers taunting better than you atm.  Every class is 'the best' at one point or another and then it's replaced by another when something changes.  I can't believe there are already 'my class is broken' threads already when very few have even hit 30 yet.</DIV>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 PM</span>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 PM</span>

[AslaanH]

<DIV>Ello, Im a lvl 28 Berserker and I feel that guardians and zerks are pretty balanced as it is now. Though I will agree perhaps some slight improvments to Guardian taunting is needed as it seems they lose aggro constantly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian = Seemingly best mitigation, ability to shield others, top notch MT and viable ST. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerker = Slightly less mitigation then a guardian but superior taunting skills, high dps wit slight reduction to defense if using DPS skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far I think it is fair, Im MT alot yes to due my ability to hold taunt and not lose it, also many of my skilsl just work best when im MT. I can stack berserks for higher DPS, use fury to hit the mobs back when im hit etc etc.  If im to not be MT due to a higher level guardian being present, I normally am forced to turn off blood lust fully, even mid fight if i turn it on i can peel aggro fast. Heck even without bloodlust on I still draw aggro at times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what it comes down to...guardians are still the best tanks due to better mitigation however the zerker while getting hurt a lil bit more will hold the aggro and bring a lil more DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see this as balanced to be honest and im unsure why guardians feel they should have the same taunting power as a Zerk. This is what zerkers do and bring to the table. We are in the warrior tree same as guardians and no one ever ever said guardians were going to be the best tank, best taunters..best anything. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recap...give guardians a slight boost to taunts because zerker or not they lose aggro allot it seems, other then that I feel both sides are balanced,both are great MTs and perhaps guardians even better ST then zerks since they arent forced to handicap their class as an offtank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SennSei]

<DIV>I don't see what all the fuss is really, except that someone or somepeople feel bad that their chosen class might not be the MOST required, MOST uber class out there.  I personally think they've done a good job with the class dynamics in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would argue this as a group flavor.  Why not have the Zerker be MT, and then have the Guardian use his/her guarding abilities to guard the zerk?  Through on an intervene or something.  Then the Zerk can use all of his/her Agro generating abilities and lay on what DPS possible while the Guardian  . . . well guards him/her as well as the rest of the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems a win-win situation to me and we're all playing the same sand box together, or do you HAVE to insist that you be MT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ciao,</DIV> <DIV>Ghrim (newbie Zerk)</DIV>

[Raiden]

Its nothing to do with people think thier class isnt the most requested.The fact of the matter isguardians - forfiet offence for improved defenceBerzerkers - forfiet defence for improved offenceso in a fight the GUARDIAN should be the one taking the hitsthe GUARDIAN should be the one getting the agrothe GUARDIAN should be ABLE to taunt mobs off ALL OTHER PLAYERS

[Raiden]

personally i'd like to see berzerkers restricted to plate armors and for vanguard armor to have a higher AC value.If they want to spam specials and end up taking the agro then they can take the suffering that comes with it.

[SennSei]

<DIV>But why does it have to be a "oh, you gonna use your skills, are you?  Well, I hope you can take the getting the snot beat out of you cause you deserve it!" type of reaction?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does it have to be competitive?  I think EQ2 is a team sport.  From your equation above:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian = Better defense, less Offense</DIV> <DIV>Zerk = Better offense, less defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, What if you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian + Zerk = detter offense with defense = ultimate tanking duo?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whatever, just seems the obvious solution to me, rather than this competitive take on it, but what do I know?  Some Zerkers are like, "no one's gonna want me cause I can't tank as well", and some Guardians are like, "no one's gonna want me cause I can't keep agro".  Wouldn't a combination of the two in a group rock?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ciao,</DIV> <DIV>Ghrim (newbie Zerk)</DIV>

[Swordsm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaidenUK wrote:<BR>personally i'd like to see berzerkers restricted to plate armors and for vanguard armor to have a higher AC value.<BR>If they want to spam specials and end up taking the agro then they can take the suffering that comes with it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>best post i saw so far,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for other dude reply to me, [Removed for Content] noob.  we all chose guardian to tank better than other class out there and hold agro.</DIV>

[Raiden]

<blockquote>Guardian + Zerk = detter offense with defense = ultimate tanking duo?</blockquote>NO because the zerker will have the agro, and so the guardian wont be using much of what hes designed to do.

[SennSei]

<DIV>"NO because the zerker will have the agro, and so the guardian wont be using much of what hes designed to do. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey I  don't mean to get people flustered, but I disagree.  I don't think a Guardian is designed to be the best MT ALL the time, not that they can't.  Take a look at you skill set.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1-19 Guard/Zerk are the exact same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>20, you get a skill (Sentinel) that let's you take ONE party members damage, probaby the healer most of the time but could be a zerker while the zerker holds agro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>21, you get a skill (Allay) that let's you block and parry sometimes for ONE party member, could be a zerker while the zerker holds agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you get skills that are group buffs, attacks, taunts (because you are a Tanking class)., etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>32.6 and 34 seems to also allow you to guard ONE party member.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and so on.  Seems to me the best use of a Guardian is to GUARD a party member and the group as a whole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think Guardian = Warrior of EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, just my take.  If I played a guardian, this is the role I'd take unless.  Let's all play together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ciao,</DIV> <DIV>Ghrim (newbie Zerk)</DIV>

[Raiden]

yes thats rite, because it seems just the rite thing to do is let a class that takes more damage be the MT. seriously i see where the protection stuff comes from, and yes ALL fighters CAN tank BUT between a zerker and a guardian the guardian should be the MT just for the fact hes a DEFENSIVE type and takes 1/2 the damage a zerker would.

[SennSei]

<DIV>Well, there's nothing wrong with your position, seems logical to me.  I'm simply suggesting a solution to a problem as mentioned on different threads.  As a zerker, I certainly don't mind ya'll taking all the beatings, although I doubt you'd take an exact 1/2 less damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think Guardians suck cause Zerkers are better.  Nor do I think Zerkers suck Guardians are better.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the time I doubt this'll be an issue, but when a Zerker and Guardian group together, my suggetion seems a possilbe solution to Guardians getting upset over Zerkers stealing agro.  That, and communication. If you perfer, as a Zerk I'd wait till you secure agro until choppin en with my best gusto much like a nuker or scout ought to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mig]

This is foolish, they didn't design this game like this people. They stated already there will be no more "holy trinity" of Warrior, Cleric and Enchanter.People will be able to do the same job we do, and sometimes they will be able to do it better then us. Get over it. There is no BEST class. Lather, Repeat, rinse.

[Raiden]

your attitude stinks.anyway they wont change jack as a result of posting on these forums so theres really no point is saying anything

[Fable_E]

<DIV>There are some good points in this thread if we can stop it from evaporating into a nerf X, balance X.. I can confirm the following as I am getting closer to 30:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>I have some App 3s and mostly Adepts of all Taunts.</LI> <LI>I have a guild that currently ranges from 25-40 for the most part in levels (I assume the 39s are hitting 40 today at least)</LI> <LI>I group with Wizards, Assassins, and Zerkers with the best possible gear and upgrades.</LI></UL> <P>That said.</P> <UL> <LI>The Assassin will eventually take agro from me.. even when I spam.. its usually later in the fight so quick fights are better.</LI> <LI>The Wizard may or may not get agro off of me based on resists.</LI> <LI>The Bezerker owns all mobs in the encounter... even when I spam.</LI> <LI>I will also add a Warden to this list as I can usually keep agro but once he gets it I can not pull a mob off him.</LI> <LI>Our Rescue Ability at App 2 does jack.. it just doesn't create enough hate for a 1 use per 30 min cast to actually pull agro in most situations.</LI></UL> <P>What needs to be fixed:</P> <UL> <LI>There is no issue with a zerker creating agro through the use of his abilities.. the Guardian however can not ever come close to generating the kind of hate of these other classes.  Taunt effectiveness and Debuffs tied to Guardian abilities needs to be addressed by the development team.</LI> <LI>Armor mitigation of specials needs to be looked at... letting a rogue NPC get to my back makes me feel like im in cloth armor.</LI></UL> <P>No one needs to be nerfed .. Agro needs to be addressed.  I think Regen from a Warden creates ridiculous amounts of damage.  As I hit 30 and beyond (almost a provisioner and then I will grind out 30+) I will continue to report on this... the hate generated by other classes is beyond my ability to actually handle.  </P>

[Benderla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaidenUK wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Guardian + Zerk = detter offense with defense = ultimate tanking duo?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>NO because the zerker will have the agro, and so the guardian wont be using much of what hes designed to do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> thats funny - i didnt know that guardians needed to be actually getting hit to take the damage for someone they are guarding?

[Gra]

<DIV>This whole thread boils down to saying:  If a DPS class frontloads damage during an encounter the Tank looses aggro and the DPS class dies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well DUH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is about tactics.  If you play with a DPS class and they choose to frontload their damage, then they will have to live (or die) by that choice.  All MMO's play this way.  The difference is that the tactics needed in lower levels in EQ2 are usually found in the mid to upper level gameplay of other MMO's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YES this means that the wizzy needs to hold back his "uber" nukes for a bit if need be.  This means that if the rogue is getting aggro he needs to back off on his combat styles a bit.  I play consistantly with a group of 5 or 6 guys and we have learned the key tactics involved to distribute the proper aggro and damage, and we NEVER have a problem.</DIV>

[DragonNin]

<DIV>I see this class (guardian) being nothing more than a life tank for some other class i.e Zerker. So I hope you guys like casting your defensive buffs on the zerker and have him tank because there is no point for guardian to MT. I can see it now... " Oh Mr. Guardian DO NOT Tank plz! The zerk will tank as he can hold the aggro and do dmg. Can you just make sure you keep your defensive buffs on him and intervene or whatever. K THX!"</DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"<EM>This whole thread boils down to saying:  If a DPS class frontloads damage during an encounter the Tank looses aggro and the DPS class dies.</EM> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Well DUH.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>This game is about tactics.  If you play with a DPS class and they choose to frontload their damage, then they will have to live (or die) by that choice.  All MMO's play this way.  The difference is that the tactics needed in lower levels in EQ2 are usually found in the mid to upper level gameplay of other MMO's.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>YES this means that the wizzy needs to hold back his "uber" nukes for a bit if need be.  This means that if the rogue is getting aggro he needs to back off on his combat styles a bit.  I play consistantly with a group of 5 or 6 guys and we have learned the key tactics involved to distribute the proper aggro and damage, and we NEVER have a problem."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moreover, IMO, it's the scaling of certain class abilities/spells and the aggro of the Guardian's AE debuffs and taunts.  No one is complaining about rogues, berskers and wizards doing their DPS, I'm happy for them; my class dishing out mad damage was not what interested me.  What did though was mitigating and maintain aggro.  But there are certain abilities where if a Guardian loses aggro he's not able to regain it.  I understand the concept of aggro control but I think it's beyond anything that could be fixed with aggro control from my experiences.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>"I see this class (guardian) being nothing more than a life tank for some other class i.e Zerker. So I hope you guys like casting your defensive buffs on the zerker and have him tank because there is no point for guardian to MT. I can see it now... " Oh Mr. Guardian DO NOT Tank plz! The zerk will tank as he can hold the aggro and do dmg. Can you just make sure you keep your defensive buffs on him and intervene or whatever. K THX!""</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought something similar as us being the Necro of EQ but instead using our HPs instead of Mana.</DIV>

[Fable_E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Graol wrote:<BR> <DIV>This whole thread boils down to saying:  If a DPS class frontloads damage during an encounter the Tank looses aggro and the DPS class dies.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I disagree .. one of the main points of this thread is Zerker Hate Generation.  Taunt effectiveness is the issue.  I can't argue what you are saying but there is so much more to this thread than simply people not knowing how to effectively control themselves.</P> <P>I can Hold the Line and throw Taunts at a group for 50% of its life.  At 49% if the Zerker unleashes he has Agro before 9% ticks off the critters life (so 40% life).  </P> <P>There is something wrong with how this mechanic works.  </P> <P>Even when we lose agro our Rescue ability (level 27ish) is worthless and can't pull the mobs back.</P> <P>Same is true of Druid's (Warden/Fury) Regen line, etc...</P> <P>Basically the taunt line for any class does not seem to be able to stack up against the hate generation for other chars.  Taunt itself needs to be fixed.  If a character holds until 50% to unleash he should not have to worry about stealing agro from a well equipped tank that has been taunting.  If a Rogue has evade he should not have to worry about stealing agro as long as he is using it.<BR></P>

[Gra]

<DIV>Fable_EQ2,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Finally someone who puts a viable arguement on a real issue.  I will agree with you completely that the Guardians taunt does not stack up well against SOME other classes such as the Zerker and Druid, although I've had less problems with Druids than zerkers.  I guess I get a bit frustrated when I see guardians or other classes, who don't know thier roles or abilities, complain about the viability of the Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>90% if the time (or more) I am able to hold and maintain aggro in the group I play with.  Sometimes I have to put 100% effort in maintaining aggro, such as recasting my buffs during the fight, spam taunt, switching targets to single target taunt, etc.  However to say that the class SUCKS is a bit of an overstatement, especially when I do happen to get into pickup groups I see wizzy's, zerkers, or rogues frontload thier damage and wonder why I can't maintain aggro.  A TANK will NEVER hold aggro against a DPS class who front loads damage, even if they do increase the effectiveness of taunt.  And this is how it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I maintain my opinion, however, that the tactics required in this game are closer to "end-game" tactics of other MMO's, and that is the primary gripe that I see in most of these type threads.  (i.e. the game is TOO HARD)</DIV>

[DragonNin]

<DIV>*** THIS QUOTE  is from the Beserker Forum ******</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>================================================== =========================================</DIV> <DIV>QUOTE: " <DIV>Well I agree, I pointed out that a MT being gaurded by a guardian would rock....whetehr it be an agility tank or  zerk woudl be nice....</DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is the way SOE intends the Guardian class to be then I am either going to Re-roll or quit the game. No way am I going to play a character that won't be tanking AND wont be doing good DPS.. Why would anyone want to play this class if you cannot tank?</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[SennSei]

<DIV>I don't get it.  Why does it have to be, "if I don't get to be MT, I'm not playing!"?   Mabey it's the symantics of it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's change it to Puller/Main assist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If you play along with the situation where a guardian is GUARDing another DPS class designated as the puller/main assist, you are still acting as the Main TANK, because you'll be helping the puller/main assist (the guy you set your Assist macros to) stay alive while (s)he dishes out mellee DPS.  You'll be the main tank, the GUARD of the group.  You'd also be attacking the mobs as well.  You'd be using your GUARDing abilities to keep everyone alive as well as killing the mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't get what the problem is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wasn't this sort of how it worked when monks pulled in EQ1?  I played a monk (like 3 years ago when it was still fun to play EQ1).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW: I'm looking at this from a group perspective.  What's the best way to use the class dynamics as they are (not as you might wish them to be) to go out and destroy the enemy.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by SennSei on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:29 PM</span>

[Swordsm]

<DIV>no point to argue anymore.  I personally will change class or quit too.  before making final decision,</DIV> <DIV>can someone with high lvl guardian like 35+ or 40+ add comment on this?  I like to know high end encounters, </DIV> <DIV>raid, and ect.  If raiding high end mob, MT is not a guardian.  definitely, guardian is not the class for me</DIV> <DIV>to continue.    </DIV>

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by God_of_Avalon on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 PM</span>

[DragonNin]

<DIV>Sigh....  Goodbye Guardian.... </DIV>

[Sri]

<blockquote><hr>God_of_Avalon wrote:<DIV>DANG you guys just don't seem to get it do you.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Hello, Zerkers have hold line also. You guys act like hold line is our special guardian only spell. I will repeat, zerkers can out taunt hence save and gaurd better then us. Please take note that they get hold the line also.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>So if a cleric is taking hits and dying fast I'm supposed to be like, hey zerker dont use bloodrage I wouldn't want you to save the clerics life, let me try and fail. I can see it now "hey zerker you are putting me to shame guarding and saving the healers with your uber tauants, please do not gain so much aggro as you are taking the job of my broken class."</div><DIV> </div><DIV> Brenderline, wake up and connect the dots. I was talking about DPS in regards to taunt off to "guard" other players, not because I want to be a DPS class.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Genisis, you act like zerkers tank like wizards when in reality they are awsome tanks.</div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><DIV>AGAIN, A ZERKER HAS SUPERIOR TAUNT (YES THEY HAVE HOLD LINE TOO) AND WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO GUARDING A PLAYER TO SAVE ITS LIFE, A ZERKERS SUPERIOR TAUNT WILL MAKE HIM A BETTER "GAURD" THEN A GUARDIAN. YOU GUYS KEEP MISSING THE POINT OVER AND OVER AND OVER. TELLING THE ZERKER TO EASE UP ON HIS TAUNT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT HIM TO PULL A MOB OFF THE CLERIC IS REDICULOUS.</div><hr></blockquote>Its funny I think that you are the one that "just doesnt get it".....What all of these people are saying is that your right Zerkers out Taunt Guardian.... but its because They are BROKEN!!! I will bet you once they get alot of the other more important issues settled out like bugs and stuff then you will see an adjustment of the Zerker... and really who cares if the Zerker gets all the hate and takes all the hits then eventually the Clerics will start to scream at them to settle down so they arent as big a mana drain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I think you are wrong when you say that a "zerkers superior taunt makes him a better guardian" as well... the fact is that at the moment broken as they are they have superior taunt... but you know I can manadump with a wizard and have superior taunt and DPS as well... is it smart? Hell no since Im made of paper machee... and in comparo with the Guardian so is the Zerker or should be when they actually get around to fixing them.Really if you play with a Zerker and he steals all the agro then he will end up Dying and learn the lesson.On the low level mobs alot of people are playing with now it wont be an issue but just wait till the hate robbing Zerker does the same thing on that raid mob and gets his **ZOMG** handed to him ... can you say OUCH <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />the fact is they are broken, the other fact is that at some poitn they will get fixed and then we will see what happens, if you go read the Zerker board they are all holding their respective fingers to their mouths saying "Shhh we dont want to get nerfed too soon" Hell they know they are broken and they also know that it will end eventually <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Good fun,

[SennSei]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Why do you assume Zerkers are broken? Why do you assume Guardians are intended to hold the aggro all the time de facto. I don't see any of the facts you claim. Please, if I am missing something, please let me know.<BR><BR>If you visit the Zerk boards, this exact same thread is at the top of the list. So, I don't agree that we're all hoping devs won't notice somthing. Didn't they just nerf us anyway?<BR><BR>*shrug*<BR><BR>Ghrim (newby Zerk)</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by SennSei on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

I like how people are mid 20's and making assumptions about end game boss encounters based on funky bloodlust aggro. **ZOMG**?

[Shady]

<DIV>That is not what the freaking guardians skills are used for, not to put on another DPS class so they can tank, Berzerkers can't tank for crap once they get past lvl 25 I've found!  Guardian's "Guard" abilities are used when clerics get aggro, or any other member!  If guardians were not ment to tank we wouldn't be wearing heavy armors and get lots of hp!  I have NEVER casted a defensive spell on a zerker because I do not group with ones stupid enough to bring agro on them selves.  I've casted it on clerics mostly, or maybe an enchanter here and there!  Guardians are meant to tank! Hence the name guardian! You can look at that two ways:</DIV> <DIV>1. To guard another tank taking damage</DIV> <DIV>2. To guard his party by taking damage and protecting other members when an enemy gets mad at them</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That about narrows the guardian class down, this whole class tree system is what causes this confusion! Only reason people think they(zerkers) are tanks is because they have the week fighter/warrior abilities zerkers have have (hold the line, taunt, HO, etc.)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berzerkers are a DPS class, and an uber one at that.  If the guardian knows what they are doing they won't loose aggro either, especially if you have your adept or master taunts, and don't slack and use your damage abilities as well which give more hate towards the guardian.  If a berzerker knows what he is doing, and paying attention he can do damage without getting himself or the other group members killed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ShadyzZ on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[Sri]

<blockquote><hr>SennSei wrote:<DIV></div><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Why do you assume Zerkers are broken? Why do you assume Guardians are intended to hold the aggro all the time de facto. I don't see any of the facts you claim. Please, if I am missing something, please let me know.<BR><BR>If you visit the Zerk boards, this exact same thread is at the top of the list. So, I don't agree that we're all hoping devs won't notice somthing. Didn't they just nerf us anyway?<BR><BR>*shrug*<BR><BR>Ghrim (newby Zerk)</blockquote><p>Message Edited by SennSei on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 PM</span><hr></blockquote>I "assume" that guardians are supposed to hold agro because that is the way the class is defined by SOE on the main class sections of the websight... I "assume" that Zerkers are broken because all of the higher level Zerkers I have talked to say they are. I dont unfortunately have any parses or logs that show they are however you can simply read the boards and see that most of the big posts are on wether Zerkers can take the agro away from a guardian (which is directly the opposite of the way SONY has said it was supposed to work.Yes they did nerf the Zerker very slightly in the name of balaceing, and hmmmmmmm what did they nerf? one of the agro skills you have does less now.... they didnt nerf DPS they adjusted your ability to gain Agro... gee doesnt that tell you something.Personally Ill play and be happy with a guardian since Im pretty sure that they wont get the ole nerf bat for a long time if at all.

[DragonNin]

<DIV>QUOTE: "Personally Ill play and be happy with a guardian since Im pretty sure that they wont get the ole nerf bat for a long time if at all."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can they nerf something that already sucks?</DIV>

[AslaanH]

<DIV>Id like to make some points and ask a questions....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all at 29...I still tank just fine in Runneye(is tough due to many mobs being red two tier), EL, Varsoon, Nektropos Castle. So saying after 25 we go splat is false.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They nerfed blood rage, this was not a nerf to aggro holding skills, this was a major nerf to a high DPS buff we got. Before it costs a bub of life to cast and allowed any hits to proc a wild swing which was also an encounter AE...so beofre you could say quad for 180...awesome damage...but also highly inconsistent. Now however it costs same amount of life...but rarely procs and the damage is pidly...not worth using except on a multi mob encounter and even then when they are even cons or lower. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People keep saying how a zerker is like wet tissue paper and I dun get it...we wear same armor, same shields....far as I see with guardians i hunt with they do not have more HP or AC unless better equiped....I do believe they have a slighty better mitigation though so all things equal in plain ol tanking, yes the guardian would do better...however to counter this the zerker does more dps. Berserk also does not seem to really effect tanking much..i dun block or parry...ok...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The classes as I see it are still balanced, and I still think that if a guardian and zerker both together..guardian is better tank...the problem is their taunting. It is not just zerk who steal from guardians it seems to be most anyone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again I dont see what the problem is except people seemed to think there would be some sort of grand canyon rift between guardians and all others in tanking...silly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do Templars out heal Inquisters far better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do Brigands unload tons more DPS then a swashbuckler?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No they dont...just as the guardians and zerkers arent to far apart from eachother either...were all balanced fine. </DIV>

[GenesisForgot]

I think its because most guardians are using Soldier Stance, all self/group buffs, a Shield, and Hunker Down every single fight and concentrate on highest AC possible over weapons. Maybe if I saw a berserker that did this I'd say they can tank but I've -never- seen one do this. All I see is zerkers with a huge ol' 2hander or dualwielding with craptastik armor taking insane damage when they draw aggro and saying **mods 4 teh win!!1!** to me like its my fault they don't learn to control their own aggro like wizards, assassins, rangers, and every other class in the game.That being said I'm starting to appreciate Gaurdian dmg capability. I can dish out damage if I don't have to taunt very much. So yeah, you have a point that the rift between guardian/zerker isn't really that huge but it might just be how people are playing them respectively.

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AslaanHVK wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do Templars out heal Inquisters far better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do Brigands unload tons more DPS then a swashbuckler?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No they dont...just as the guardians and zerkers arent to far apart from eachother either...were all balanced fine. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Your comparisons are totally pointless, Templars and Inquisitors are just Good and Evil versions of a cleric, likewise Swashbucklers and Brigands are just Good and Evil versions of a rogue, whilst they are different classes they essentially fulfil the exact same functions just with an alignment based twist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians and Berserkers are totally different approaches to the warrior concept, this is clearly stated in the documentation, website and the in-game hallmark quests. Guardians protect their group by soaking up damage on the groups behalf, I distinctly remember the purpose I was given on my Guardian subclass quest was to guard the NPC by taking all the damage while the NPC helped me kill the enemies. The Berserker quest was to kill the enemies as fast as possible and therefore protect the NPC by eliminating the threat quickly before it eliminates you. So there are quite clear differences between the roles of the Guardian and the Berserkers ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are meant to take the punishment on behalf of the rest of their group, traditional tank concept, they need to be able to either keep the enemy attacking them or be able to defend on behalf of the rest of the group. From what I have seen of the Guardian skill list it appears we have a LOT of taunting abilities combined with some abilities that allow us to defend one or two other members of the group. To me this says Guardians should be the ones holding the agro, getting smacked about as a result and protecting key members of the group, i.e. the healers or mezzers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers on the other had are meant to hand out large amounts of damage at the expense of defence, this is based on the concept of 'the best defence is offence'. Their abilities reinforce this as the vast majority are offensive abilities that boost their damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Berserkers are able to tank as well as Guardians whilst having a much higher DPS then there clearly is a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO Berserkers should be limited to medium armour and round shields. Heavy armour, kite and tower shields should be the domain of Guardians and not Berserkers. At the moment a Berserker can pick up a decent shield, run Soldier's Stance and be able to tank almost on par with a Guardian whilst maintaining their much higher damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for those saying wait until the later levels, this wont be the case then. It is irrelevant what things are like at the top levels, we are encountering these problems in the 20-30 region which clearly indicates that Guardian and Berserker are not balanced for that level range. Classes should be balanced all through their progression, not just at level 50!</DIV>

[DragonNin]

<DIV>^ QUOTE FROM the ABOVE Post </DIV> <DIV>" If Berserkers are able to tank as well as Guardians whilst having a much higher DPS then there clearly is a problem. "</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is where I am right now. Why would you play the guardian class if a Zerk can do the same job but with better damage output? I still think when we start seeing guardians reach higher levels that we will turn into nothing more than life tanks for other fighter type classes. Just cast your defensive buff on him and watch him tank.  I think the whole notion of everyone can be tank is a little lame. Sure different classes can tank but, guardians really should be the best at it. Why? One simple reason, we have the lowest damage output of ANY of the other fighter types. It's as simple is that. </DIV>

[Eelyen]

<DIV>The difference between Beserkers and Guardians tanking abilities at level 20 are very small.  Both classes are basically Level 20 Warriors.  Gear and defense make the main difference between the two.  If a guardian is using the lovely 140+ ac shields and the zerker is using a 2h weapon.  Obviously the superior defense the guardian has is going make him a better tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the levels go up to 30, the difference in tanking ability gets greater and greater.  As the guardian has more defensive skills and a greater hp advantage over the zerker.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Following this trend, you can assume that as you rise to 50, that difference in tanking ability will grow larger and larger.  But overall the zerkers are still a sub class of the warrior class, which is a tanking class.  So they will maintain a level of tanking ability.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This design was implemented like this, I believe, so that groups didn't have to have the holy trinity like in Everquest 1.  But just like in EQ1, the guardian will end up being the superior tank for groups.  But a good guardian will know how and when to use all of his abilities because the tactics in EQ2 are different then EQ1. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree that there is issues with Taunt...or lack there of.  I personally think Taunt abilities shouldn't have a power cost or always be extremely low.  When everyone in the group is out of power and your group members are getting eaten up by an add and you can't taunt off the cleric cause you have no power to taunt.  It's frustrating.</DIV>

[Benderla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fable_EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Graol wrote:<BR> <DIV>This whole thread boils down to saying:  If a DPS class frontloads damage during an encounter the Tank looses aggro and the DPS class dies.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I disagree .. one of the main points of this thread is Zerker Hate Generation.  Taunt effectiveness is the issue.  I can't argue what you are saying but there is so much more to this thread than simply people not knowing how to effectively control themselves.</P> <P>I can Hold the Line and throw Taunts at a group for 50% of its life.  At 49% if the Zerker unleashes he has Agro before 9% ticks off the critters life (so 40% life).  </P> <P>There is something wrong with how this mechanic works.  </P> <P>Even when we lose agro our Rescue ability (level 27ish) is worthless and can't pull the mobs back.</P> <P>Same is true of Druid's (Warden/Fury) Regen line, etc...</P> <P>Basically the taunt line for any class does not seem to be able to stack up against the hate generation for other chars.  Taunt itself needs to be fixed.  If a character holds until 50% to unleash he should not have to worry about stealing agro from a well equipped tank that has been taunting.  If a Rogue has evade he should not have to worry about stealing agro as long as he is using it.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>well - you know its entirely possible that this has nothing to do with hate, but the AI (im reaching here) - think about it - how long did it take for you to realize that your group needs to kill the mob doing the most damage QUICKLY, and then focus on the rest.  Maybe there is some sort of AI parameter thats causing this behavior instead of hate...<BR></P>

[Benderla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The classes as I see it are still balanced, and I still think that if a guardian and zerker both together..guardian is better tank...the problem is their taunting. It is not just zerk who steal from guardians it seems to be most anyone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This isnt exactly a new problem  How many times have I had to yell at someone in a raid in EQ1 for casting before they were told too... heck even on some of the easy velious raid level encounters do people remember how long you had to wait before the leader called in the debuffs?  Remember the heartpounding first time you got the chain heals timed right on low lag boxes and the tank actually LIVED for the first round before you called in the debuffs?  Remember waiting up to a minute before telling the rogues to "have at it"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone ever heard "let the rogue die" on the chat channel?  or "NOBODY GETS HEALED BUT THE TANK LINE!" ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyone?</DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <DIV>The difference between Beserkers and Guardians tanking abilities at level 20 are very small.  Both classes are basically Level 20 Warriors.  Gear and defense make the main difference between the two.  If a guardian is using the lovely 140+ ac shields and the zerker is using a 2h weapon.  Obviously the superior defense the guardian has is going make him a better tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the levels go up to 30, the difference in tanking ability gets greater and greater.  As the guardian has more defensive skills and a greater hp advantage over the zerker.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This will only hold true IF Guardians have access to shields and armour that Berserkers cannot use. This far I have seen nothing to indicate that this will be the case, Berserkers have the same access to armour/shield types as Guardians. And the HP difference is 4 per level, so at level 50 the difference between a Dwarf Berserker and Dwarf Guardian with the same racial choices will be 120 HP, which is a tiny amount.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only hope that in the higher levels of the game the best AC kit can only be worn by the most defensive of the fighter subclasses, namely the Guardian. If not our role will degenerate to the point where we are nothing more than a block/parry bot for a zerker tank. Anyway, at level 20-30 it seems that a zerker with shield and AC gear makes a better tank than a Guardian and has better DPS as well, so in that level range there is an imbalance.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

Hey guys, I got a lvl 30 monk and I have a thread going about combing the monk and the guardian as a combo in a group. I would like some guardian input on this. I am encouraging constructive conversations, please do not flame anyone.<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=644" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=644</a>

[Rah]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">This is EQ II not EQ. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I do agree at the moment intend to use the terminology from EQ as a base to start with but at the same time expect it to become more refined as those more analytically inclined dissect it. I am eager to see results since I am not as inclined to parse logs and run valid test (I am far to busy in my time trying to keep myself as a valid equipped and skilled team member).</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Agro control is a group effort not one members.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">If you insist on gaining agro then be prepared to deal with the subsequent effects of the damage you will incur. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">If you are a berserker/scout/assassin/mage and you do whatever it is you are capable of and draw agro deal with it. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">If you are a berserker wearing the same armor I am then you should be more prepared to take the beating than the priest/scout/mage.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I intend to Guard the healer or the occasional scout/caster who will be required to kill the mob (dependant on the mobs health level) when he/she draws that agro, if you choose to snap agro the mob off of him all the better. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Who knows the whole intervene on a berserker may be a valid procedure to defeat mob X during raid Y. I at the moment don’t buy into supporting your inability to manage agro just to keep you standing utilizing combat abilities to further your perceived dominance of the tank position. Besides will Intervene even be a valid combat ability at 20? Will it scale? Who knows at this point.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I do not know if later in the game we will find ourselves ahead or behind berserkers in ability to function as a damage taker. I strongly suspect that since my class description says I can take a lot of damage I will be better at just that. I will reserve that judgment for the time that I see otherwise.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Just a closing thought if that berserker looses agro and the mob is beating on you do you want to hope he can reclaim it or have someone who can do something about the damage your taking even if the mob still beats on you?</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Your choice.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>I say let the zerker take the agro and die, then you use your AoE taunts and rescue the party.  It will make you the hero!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  j/k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a future guardian I have no problem that zerkers keep agro better than I.  In the end my job is to save party members, it doesn't matter, to me,if that's a cleric or a zerker.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hyparm]

<DIV>I like playing my guardian. I think its a cool idea to be able to cast protection buffs on my group hence letting them live longer if something goes wrong. However it seems each of my lil protection spells take too much concentration. I always have the one defensive buff i get, I forget its name but its the yellow icon that last 12hours and takes up 3 concentration. After that the only thing I can cast atm is array, it only helps if i'm glued to whoever I cast it on. It's difficult but in time I believe the guardian will be awesome, it really is a new type of tank class compared to any other tank you've roled. The beserker is good and may even be the best tank. But guardians will be able to keep pressure off the rest of the group whether he's tanking or not. But, we need more CONCENTRATION slots. :robotindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV>

[gggun]

<DIV>22 Guardian here, I just want to say that yes, Zerkers are imba. They hold agro better than Guardians, deal better DPS than Guardians, and at this point wear the same armor and have the same base HP as Guardians. So why play a Guardian over a Zerker?? Note to developers: Our whole "protect another party member" line of spells are at best situational and at worst useless. The best way to tank is to keep taunting and not lose agro, you shouldn't even need to touch these spells if you're doing your job. While we get these POS arts the Zerkers are getting massive DPS stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not complaining, I'm sure Zerkers will be nerfed soon, but until then Zerkers > Guardians PERIOD. It could be worse though, fortunantly we didn't choose the Paladin class AKA "The [Removed for Content] of Norrath"...</DIV>

[Xter]

<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>(Consolidation)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Is this class really that hard for people to play?  At lvl 25, all I hear is how good of a tank I am, "the best tank I've ever grouped with" is not uncommen for me to hear.  Really, I'm not one to boost, but come on? I've grouped with every tank class there is and I never have a hard time keeping agro.  Our job is not damage output, even though, its really not that bad with the right wepon (Sword of thunder right now for me) and some of the damage output skills we have (like the DOT's, help keep agro too).  The main job is agro, and the ablity to take lower damage, and slower damage, so your healers have time to deal with it, or your druids/shammies arnt havint to recast regens and wards all the time.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Your a meet shild that needs to be taking all the hits, and absorbing them well.  GEAR is sooooo important.  If anything is a downside to Guards is they need to be spending so much time (quests) or money on gear. You should never have anything under white, and I usulay keep my gear at yellow or org at all times.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I hardly use my "Guard" skills, they are more for an "Oh Sh*t" moment when something goes wrong and you cant get tuant fast.  Keep your protection buffs up, keep your increased damage buffs up (mainly for the rest of the group), and keep mashting those taunts.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Again, maybe its just a hard class to play and people just dont understand it?  Know your job and stick to it. Do everything you can to make it happen.  If your not doing a good job, or you dont like the class, pick something that suits your better or is easier to play.  The Gaurd is the core of the group. you have to be a leader, and a very good player.  Wana kick back and see big numbers or flashy lights when you hit keys, this is not the class for you. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>Its a common problem for a company to overstate something for CR. It’s another for people to take what is said and twist a few words a bit to have a very different outcome.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>NOT ALL TANKS TANK THE SAME!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Not all healers HEAL the same.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What Sony was going after, (and did well I think) was make it so that any healer class “could” be the solo healer in a group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And they did that!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Now that doesn’t mean that a group is going to be able to kill mobs as well, or as fast, or as safe as another group that might have a class that is more Healer focused (see Shammie vs Templar).<SPAN>  </SPAN>Please for your own sake, don’t think for a second that all the class types are just as good at the same thing.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Same goes with tanking.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, a paly or SK, or Zerker can be the MT. But all gear and lvl’s being equal, healers will have to react faster, will heal more, and with the exception to the Zerker, there could/will be more agro issues then if you had a Guard in the group. <SPAN> </SPAN>Templars are by far the best healers when it comes to flat out healing, and guards are the best tanks, when it comes to Meatsheild/taunt/ steady predicable HP/mana management. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT size=2>Now this is not to say that a group cant be just as effective, with hybird classes, but its going to be a bit more work, and you'll need everyone at the peak of their game. This usualy isn't as much of a problem with a small guild or group of players that are together all the time.  But for pick up groups, stable is usualy a better bet.  </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=EmailStyle15><SPAN><FONT size=2>Good luck!</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Xterra on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Kyd]

<DIV>People just tend to forget that every class can't be great at everything. Guardians don't taunt as well, they tank better and bring defensive skills to a group. Beserkers do greater dps and Paladins taunt the best as I have seen. It just boggles my mind that people expect to be the holy sole tank that is exceedingly well at everything. For the record as a guardian, I have had no trouble what so ever of holding or taking aggro. No button mashing required either. Just have to learn how to use your skills right. For example if you want a head start on aggro open with an attack buff. The buffs we cast also carry a bit of aggro if cast at the right time (during a pull). Don't wait till the cleric has aggro to try to get it, you have to maintain it from the time the pull starts.</DIV>

[spongobla]

<DIV>in every RPG that has ever existed, the game makers have this messed up problem of making the "tank class" suck **mods 4 teh win!!1!**. i dunno why they do it, but why do tanks do so bad? there only advantage over shadownight/pally is that they get a bit more health(adds up, but its still not enough) whats the use of group protect if your supposed to be taunting?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: btw, do you guys accually think mages are a big part of a group, or just a nuisance that dies easyer than others?</DIV><p>Message Edited by spongoblast on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

[GenesisForgot]

Well one thing I will agree with - guard spells SUCK. I don't use them ever and they are worthless. Rescue is equally worthless as it rarely works.

[schrammy]

<DIV>here are my 2 cents</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have done quite some grouping and untill now lvl 22 most of the time 95% i am the main tank. only time i had any problems holding argo was wtih zerkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guese what we swaped places the zerker did maintank and i casted my gaurdian abilities on him and i never seen a group so effective, healers never had a problem keeping him over 50% health and we could chain yellows with 2up none stop.</DIV> <DIV>so for the few times that i am grouped with a zerker i gladly paly assist to make the group better as [Removed for Content] the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>schould a gaurdian be able to get argo over a zerker answer: NO</DIV> <DIV>schould a zerker be able to take asmuch damage as an gaurdian answer: NO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i do agree that taunts should be just alittle more effective in general and most of all i would like to see a little more difrence between the gaurdian and the berzerker, doesn't mean just nerf the zerker it could be something like this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>zerker loose the ability to wear vangaurd.</DIV> <DIV>gaurdian loose the ability to wear heavy plate.</DIV> <DIV>don't change the stats its just for the look and feel of the class.</DIV> <DIV>zerkers loose the ability to use a shield</DIV> <DIV>gaurdian loose the ability to daulwield.</DIV> <DIV>zerker gain a little more strenght and loose a little stamina</DIV> <DIV>gaurdian loose a little strenght and gain a little stamina.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>both would still be able to tank and do the job well but the diffrence would just be a little more clear and it wouldn't affect the classes ballance because both would just get better at what there meant to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as it is right now zerkers can take damage just aswell as we can and deal out alote more, that wasn't intended nor schould it be like this, schould be easyly fixes just so minor tweaks here and there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just my 2 cents</DIV><p>Message Edited by schrammy on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 PM</span>

[Turb]

Wow, that suggestion seems almost TOO sensible <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I hope SOE listen... if they read a 100mgs thread like this...!I think these changes would differentiate the two better without any complaints on theme for either.IceGuard