Summary of issues with the Guardian - DEVS please read.

[Araze]

As far as I can see, there is a common agreement that these issues should be looked into: 1. Special Attack Mitigation=======================================I t appears that mobs doing special attacks on us, only a get hit/miss roll, and NO damage reduction based on the AC / defense of the player the mob is hitting. We would like feedback from the Devs if this is intented or a bug.If it is intended, we strongly disagree, because it makes Monk and other classes with high agi and avoidance better tanks overall than guardians. Our AC is "worthless" ... If it is a bug, we would like it to be your NO 1 pri. to fix for this class (which also means a overall bug fix) 2. Reward from Hallmark Quest=======================================We get a Halberd of Defense. No Guardian will ever use this during a fight that require his true strength: To be a tank and defend everyone else. A TWO-HANDED weapon for a class that HIGHLY depend on using a shield for the extra AC, that is not logical. We would like this changed to a more logical reward, like a One Handed weapon or a Shield.If you decide to listen to this, please make it possible for the ones already in posession of the Halberd, to swap rewards.EDIT: I find it even more disturbing for me as follower of Qeyons, that FP citizens DO get a shield, but we don't. I fail to see the logic behind this. EDIT2: "I received a BETTER 2-handed weapon last night in Stormhold. It is called Steel Maul. ALL stats are better than the Guardian quest reward I received when I finished my Hallmark Quest."=======================================It would be nice to get feedback from Devs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Arazeth on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 AM</span><p>Message Edited by Arazeth on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[Hastur Bloodwa]

Gets my vote on all counts, and I would love to get rid of the halberd and have the proper reward, the Aegis Shield. I would like to feel that the hours I have put into building my guardian up haven't been wasted leaving me with a gimped class.

[Araze]

/bump

[Les]

<DIV>I'm not sure about the first point, but I definitely agree with the second. A shield would make great sense, but a 2H weapon is just going to the scrap pile for me</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lesch</DIV>

[jaffs]

i couldnt believe monks would be better at avoidance then guardians are, from what ive seen anyway with my guardian using his shield and def, parry buffs he is blocking and parrying away so many hits its not funny, i can solo white's and not be hit once if i burn them with my power attacks efficiently.you qeynos guardians should get the shield tho like the freeport guys i believe, or atleast the option

[Sir_Halbarad]

I would like to see tower shields for the lvl 15-25 range. None on merchants, no drops I have heard of.

[SirNicholo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir_Halbarad wrote:<BR>I would like to see tower shields for the lvl 15-25 range. None on merchants, no drops I have heard of.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> If you are in Qeynos there is a quest, if I remember right its the smith in Baubbleshire that gives it.

[Sir_Halbarad]

Did that, and the tower shield cons grey for a long time now. The next Tower Shield I could find on a merchant can be equipped at lvl 25 (if I recall correctly). Something to buy/quest/hunt to put for the levels 15-25 would be nice.

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>Point 1 - I agree completely, I created a new chat window last night to monitor the mobs attacks on me and about 80% of all attacks landed were specials and when I checked how much damage the 18 Brawler I was grouped with was taking from the same specials (from the same mobs) he was taking approximately 15% more damage. At the time I was a 20 Guardian with approximately 1050ac and the 18 Brawler had around 600ac, hence I put the difference in damage down to the level difference rather than any sort of AC related mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Point 2 - That only applies to Guardians in Qeynos, those of us loyal to Freeport recieve a nice kite shield as the reward for the Guardian Hallmark quest.</DIV>

[Hammerclap]

<DIV>To add insult to injury, I received a BETTER 2-handed weapon last night in Stormhold.  It is called Steel Maul.  ALL stats are better than the Guardian quest reward I received when I finished my Hallmark Quest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devs, please, please, please consider allowing us to change the 2-handed Halberd received as a Qeynos Guardian for a shield or 1-handed weapon.  It's pretty bad when I can get a loot drop in Stormhold that is far better than the one I received to achieve the Guardian Class.</DIV>

[Korwyn]

<DIV>I agree 100%!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cormac </DIV>

[Araze]

bump

[Catu]

<DIV>Great thread, agree with every point made here and really hope that the devs address these issues in the near future.</DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>Bit of a bump, and another example of why the lack of armour mitigation on mob specials is a problem ... tonight while doing my Freeport Armour Quests in Fallen Gate I was taken from full health to incap in 3 hits by a white con with two up arrows, first it hit me with a special for approx 400 damage then followed up with a pair of hits for approx 350 each a couple of seconds later. I just glad that both the Inquisitors in my group had big heals on the way and I was back standing before the mob corpsed me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, I was level 21 with just over 1100ac at the time, all my defence buffs running and the mob was a an even con vile shriller with two up arrows.</DIV>

[Tryple]

<DIV>I agree with this post. I'm not sure if #1 is a bug or not but I would at least like a dev response (even if they don't have fix just yet.) it would just give me a warm fuzzy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sir_Halbarad, look up the Battlemaster's tower shield on your local broker. I got mine of a centaur in TS in the village. It has very nice stats and I have been using t since 21. At 27 it is still the best I have seen that I can use.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tryplexx on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 PM</span>

[Diabler]

<DIV>SUPER bump . . .</DIV>

[ElevenBra]

bummdiddly bumpage.I’m surprised there aren’t class correspondents?

[Fogia_99]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>1. Special Attack Mitigation<BR>=======================================<BR><BR>It appears that mobs doing special attacks on us, only a get hit/miss roll, and NO damage reduction based on the AC / defense of the player the mob is hitting. We would like feedback from the Devs if this is intented or a bug.<BR><BR>If it is intended, we strongly disagree, because it makes Monk and other classes with high agi and avoidance better tanks overall than guardians. Our AC is "worthless" ... <BR><BR>If it is a bug, we would like it to be your NO 1 pri. to fix for this class (which also means a overall bug fix)<BR><BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would like to comment this. I am not a Guardian (yet) but as a lvl18 Warrior I noticed recently something important.</P> <P> </P> <P>Just do a very simple test : spot a great number of grey melee mobs, preferably a group of 4 or 5 then engage them. I did that on a bunch of gnolls near the hidden entrance of Blackburrow in Antonica.</P> <P>Usually, quickly after the engage, any lower level melee mob will trigger Wild swing. If you look carefully, you will notice that almost every single special will land. Then those grey mobs will never ever hit you with regular attack and will hit you regulary with recast of specials.</P> <P>What is important in this test, is not the fact that mitigation may be bugged (because this, I didn't really test it). No, the important part is that <STRONG>avoidance</STRONG> clearly seems bugged. Cause I do not see a simple real reason to explain the fact that a bunch of grey mobs miss 90% of the regular hit but land more than 90% of their specials. And please note that as a Kerra I have 40+ AGI.</P> <P> </P> <P>I do believe there is a big issue concerning specials and their check vs mitigation but also avoidance.</P> <P>So in the end the issue that was presented as a Warrior / Crusader only issue due to a possible mitigation bug would be in fact a full Fighter issue due to NPC melee special completly ignoring PC mitigation and avoidance.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gamth]

I also have noticed Gray Mobs landing specials all the time but missing normal swings.

[Ryan]

I agree with both statements above and believe this seriously needs to be looked at. I just finished my Guardian Hallmark quests and I am severely disappointed with the reward. There is absolutley no logic behind it what-so-ever.BUMP

[benba]

<DIV>yea, I got hit for 260 points by a lvl 21 Gnoll in TS and I'm lvl 23 with 1100 AC. what's up with that? </DIV>

[Araze]

Just a quick "Hey, we saw your conserns, and we will look into it" would be nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We are not asking much. Look into the possible bugged hit/avoid/ac/mitigation thing. That is THE most important thing for us. Just a quick feedback. PleaseTo change our reward from Halberd to Shield like Freeport Guardians get, would also be nice, A Quick change I would guess. But this does NOT have as high Pri as the above mentioned problem.Imagine the special attack lvl 50 mobs will land on us, when grey con at this point can special for up to 93 (my highest so far). We would be nothing more than "the guy to send in first to burn the mob's specials on"That would be the ruin of a great class.

[Fogia_99]

<DIV>Also, this seems crazy, but due to that avoidance/mitigation bug I am more worried when I face a pack of grey or green vv mobs than a single blue ^. Nothing worse than being hit by a flurry of specials.</DIV> <DIV>This is a major problem for me when doing quests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talking about flurry, another example : today with a group in BB we wanted to kill a named in the brewer area. I was lvl18 and it consed white for me, so nothing extraordinary. Too bad, its first special was a flurry and over the 6 or so attacks, only one missed, doing between 65 and 75 to me for each successful. Needless to say I went down faster than ever.</DIV>

[Noah]

<DIV>Here is my Strategy for all encounters.  I usually have little agro issue unless a beserker is "Procing AE like a mad man".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Guardian pulls</DIV> <DIV>   I think this is important since we need to be on the agro list 1st!  Seems like most mobs like to get a taste of someone and hold tight to then.  You dont need to pull with a Shout or w/e especially if there are social mobs around (happens a lot more later in the game).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- On the way back do a quick HO taunt.  Let the party know they can wait a few seconds while you HO.  You can do this while running back and it is HUGE ae due to the extra damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-  Have a MAssist up.  Someone that everyone assists.  They engage a target and you use the shout AE.  This should do ok for agro for now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Tab to the next mob in the group and pop a Taunt on it.  Use anything like Challenge, Taunt,  w/e you got.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Tab to another mob and hit it with a DoT like Maim, Concussion... etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Tab back to the assisted mob and use your AE attack or another taunt.  Kill it down with the group and shout again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-  HTL if it is necessary.  I find mobs like to move into walls so I need to move to help people get behind them in dungeons.  I will use HTL also IF the agro is not working on a few pulls.  It just means you got some good DPS going on in the group or an overzealous healer.  I prefer to be able to move around a lot so HTL is on a limited use for me in an exp situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion is the guardian's job is to hold agro.  If you cant get agro off of someone, Intervene - Defend - etc them and if they agro again tell them to swing around behind you and you will be able to intercept the damage - altho this will NOT be mitigated......  horrible thing but you probably have more hps so it is still better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my strat and I have little agro issues.  Mages can nuke all they want, assassins can unload like mad, and priests can debuff/nuke/heal all they want.  Just remember,  if you lose agro a lot, try upgrading to APP3s or Adepts.  This will help too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ENJOY and keep that agro!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Araze]

bump

[Gamth]

Finished my Hertiage Quest last night... got the 2 handed weapon as a reward, looked at my 1 hand hammer I got at level 5 and put the 2 Handed in the bank to rust.

[Jesper]

Hmm its a double edge sword about combat arts.If they are reduced to normal to hit chance we will all suffer. Ever player will suffer if they lower combat art to hit chance.Its part of the challenge to handle mobs power. We get counters for it all.Mobs hitting alot use rallying cry, or call of command if your high enough. Use toughness against group mobs (yes I know its grey I still use it at lvl 24). Burning your healers mana? Get some decent agro and hunker down.One tough mob that hits for a ton drain his power with concussion or what ever higher we get. Keep him from using power with kneebreak, shield bash and slam.Dont take the challenge out of the game.I dont want to be a EQ1 tank that just soaks up damage by merrit of his level and his gear. I wanna work for my ability to ownage.Just dont agree that its a issue. If mobs combat arts bypasses armor so does ours. It would seriously reduce our damage output and hurt our ability to solo if we start to miss with our combat arts more then we already do. I know I hate it when wound or bury miss.Its a double edge sword if you ask me. Game is still balanced at 24 dont know about higher up.I dont agree on the combat art issue.About the 2H halebard. Used it a little to test soloing with 2H. Found my damage output is 90% dependant on combat arts and returned to shield and 1H for better damage mitigation. I agree it would be nice with a choice.GranbarRunnyeye.

[Fae]

<DIV>If these are the biggest problems you can conceive for the guardian class, then you're pretty well off! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I disagree that a guardian needs to have a shield and a one-handed weapon. Play styles differ greatly, and some LIKE 2-handed weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I am a guardian.</DIV>

[JHappycl]

<DIV>I got a shield for my reward for the hallmark quest.</DIV>

[CtrL-B]

<blockquote><hr>Arazeth wrote:As far as I can see, there is a common agreement that these issues should be looked into: 1. Special Attack Mitigation=======================================I t appears that mobs doing special attacks on us, only a get hit/miss roll, and NO damage reduction based on the AC / defense of the player the mob is hitting. We would like feedback from the Devs if this is intented or a bug.If it is intended, we strongly disagree, because it makes Monk and other classes with high agi and avoidance better tanks overall than guardians. Our AC is "worthless" ... If it is a bug, we would like it to be your NO 1 pri. to fix for this class (which also means a overall bug fix) 2. Reward from Hallmark Quest=======================================We get a Halberd of Defense. No Guardian will ever use this during a fight that require his true strength: To be a tank and defend everyone else. A TWO-HANDED weapon for a class that HIGHLY depend on using a shield for the extra AC, that is not logical. We would like this changed to a more logical reward, like a One Handed weapon or a Shield.If you decide to listen to this, please make it possible for the ones already in posession of the Halberd, to swap rewards.EDIT: I find it even more disturbing for me as follower of Qeyons, that FP citizens DO get a shield, but we don't. I fail to see the logic behind this. EDIT2: "I received a BETTER 2-handed weapon last night in Stormhold. It is called Steel Maul. ALL stats are better than the Guardian quest reward I received when I finished my Hallmark Quest."=======================================It would be nice to get feedback from Devs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Arazeth on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 AM</span><p>Message Edited by Arazeth on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span><hr></blockquote>bump bumpity bump! I agree with everything said so far about aggro, hallmark level 20 reward, etc.

[Carancir]

Your obsessiv use of bumpage will only get this thread locked...If you want to get some serious feedback - try to behave seriously.

[bittani]

My Big issue is our buffs only lasting 3minutes, its a total pain in the butt keeping 4 different 3min buffs up all the time, its to the point where i forget to refresh them so much that now i only bother using them on big fights yellow ^^ and over.

[Goldenpaw]

<DIV>Sorry this got posted twice =(</DIV><p>Message Edited by Goldenpaw on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 AM</span>

[Goldenpaw]

<DIV> <DIV>Wow, I never knew that Freeport Guardians get a shield, but now that I do, I'm pretty freaking frustrated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought all of us Guardians, world wide got ###### with the most worthless weapon in the world.  And to the guy who said, I like variety, are you joking?  You should be a berserker...  In case you didn't notice the definition of our class is to -guard- and to defend out allies.  You are not there to be Mr. Damage, you are there to take blows, and to make everyone else kill the mobs.  If you -insist- on doing damage, go buy a two handed weapon, but by the VERY DEFINITION of our class, why in the world did the Qeynos Guardians get the royal #### when it came to class rewards!  That is the issue, the -reward- of the Qeynos Guardian, not if -you- like to play with 2 handed weapons.  It makes absolutely no sense for us to have received the reward we did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I couldn't agree more with the issues raised, though I doubt they ever will be fixed, or this thread even read.  I was slightly more than depressed when I reached 20, and watched my Berserker buddy, Cleric Wife, all put on the exact same armor I had, yet the manual clearly states we wore the heaviest stuff,  Vanguard, no everyone does, everyone can wear our armor, viva la plate...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh but thats another story...</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Goldenpaw on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:53 AM</span>

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jesperbo wrote:<BR>Hmm its a double edge sword about combat arts.<BR><BR>If they are reduced to normal to hit chance we will all suffer. Ever player will suffer if they lower combat art to hit chance.<BR><BR>Its part of the challenge to handle mobs power. We get counters for it all.<BR><BR>Mobs hitting alot use rallying cry, or call of command if your high enough. Use toughness against group mobs (yes I know its grey I still use it at lvl 24). Burning your healers mana? Get some decent agro and hunker down.<BR><BR>One tough mob that hits for a ton drain his power with concussion or what ever higher we get. Keep him from using power with kneebreak, shield bash and slam.<BR><BR>Dont take the challenge out of the game.<BR><BR>I dont want to be a EQ1 tank that just soaks up damage by merrit of his level and his gear. I wanna work for my ability to ownage.<BR><BR>Just dont agree that its a issue. If mobs combat arts bypasses armor so does ours. It would seriously reduce our damage output and hurt our ability to solo if we start to miss with our combat arts more then we already do. I know I hate it when wound or bury miss.<BR><BR>Its a double edge sword if you ask me. Game is still balanced at 24 dont know about higher up.<BR><BR>I dont agree on the combat art issue.<BR><BR>About the 2H halebard. <BR>Used it a little to test soloing with 2H. Found my damage output is 90% dependant on combat arts and returned to shield and 1H for better damage mitigation. I agree it would be nice with a choice.<BR><BR>Granbar<BR>Runnyeye.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Melee special hits have to take AC into account, the spell specials already take the resists into account and therefore do less damage than the melee specials. At 23 I can tank a group of 3 white con casters with no problem with a single healer as support, yet a group of 3 white con melee will do too much damage from specials in the first 10-15 seconds of the fight for the healer to hold, there is something clearly wrong there. I can actually tank almost as long against the same mobs when wearing no armour at all, hardly seems balanced to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont actually think it is balanced atm, I would much rather have a group with myself as Guardian, 1-2 Priests, a Coercer and 2-3 Brigands/Assassins/Bruisers as they do a far better job at dropping mobs than any Necro, Wizard or Warlock I have grouped with post level 15.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, what about the melee specials that are designed to bypass the AC of the target, they are rendered utterly useless due to the fact that all melee specials are currently doing this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, fixing the problem with melee specials bypassing AC might lead to a drop in melee damage output, but that would also result in AC tanks being able to actually tank rather than dying to the first wave of specials from groups of 4 or more white cons. And fixing it would also give us a reason to group caster damage dealers with us again. At the moment Bruisers/Monks can actually make a better tank than a Guardian/Paladin/SK as their damage avoidance actually works, not to mention their damage output is noticably higher as well.</DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carancir wrote:<BR>Your obsessiv use of bumpage will only get this thread locked...<BR><BR>If you want to get some serious feedback - try to behave seriously.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If it gets locked it will at least let us know that someone at SOE has at least taken a look at it.</DIV>

[Kinni]

<DIV>I couldn't agree more with all of this.  Maybe we should just keep bumping this so we have "proof" that they're ignoring the issue. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Jesper]

Casters only have one bane and thats resists.Melee heroic opportunities can be dodged, parried and blocked.I frequently take on yellow con groups with only 1 healer. It works fine. I got so many mitigation skills now its getting mind boggling.Shouting cry reduces encounter damage, Mangle still rocks in lower combat skills on the "leader" of the encounter. Our rallying cry line increase the groups defense. Battle tactics raise our hp. I group with a cleric buddy and combined with his debuffs encounters get very managable.Shield bash, Kneebreaker, Bash are great at keeping that annoying healer or Leader from using power. Concussion to lower his power.I am perfectly happy with the guardian class abilities.I lose agro yes. Mostly to people who are debuffing or casting reactive heals,wards right on incomming. Their fault not mine.Lose agro, Use my taunts... get multiple encounter mobs use my buff line to maintain agro. It all works well for me.When I am not groupped with my buddies getting 2 different healers work great. Buffs stack and my hp/ac gets a very noticable boost from 2 healers buffing their respective lines.I am sure a beserker tanks fine. But how fast is the healer burning power to maintain him. Noone even have that consideration. I am sure the beserker tanks fine but at a price.Everquest2 is much more about playing your character and using your abilities when its necesarry. They dont want to end up with class favorism like in everquest. Thats why all our ablities are on short timers.All fighters are supposed to be able to tank.

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>Jesperbo, you misunderstand, people arent unhappy with the Guardian skills, what we are unhappy with is unavoidable deaths due to a bug with melee specials.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even with all my defence buffs running and defence buffs stacked in from the rest of the group, reactive heals running, damage wards in place and I have still been insta-incapped by groups of 4 or 5 white cons, not much you can do when you get hit by 8-10 attacks for 400+ in a matter of seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it ludicrous that anyone can think that armour should not play a part in the damage reduction of the majority of melee attacks, if it isnt reducing the damage then what is the point in it? Whats the point in having melee specials that bypass the armour check if all melee specials do that anyway? Whats the point in mages if a Guardian can drop a mob in roughly the same amount of time at a fraction of the risk?</DIV>

[Jesper]

whats your level.Name so I can look up your gear.You using your defensive abilities ?I take on group encounters Yellow with 2 arrows up and I tank fine.Yes incomming is the part that hurts the most. Reactive heals mitigate this.Look me up if you doubt my abilites.Granbar on runnyeye. I am level 24 so I dont know how it goes higher then that level. But named mobs in stormhold dont pose any challenge for me with a decent healer.Just moved to Thundering steppes and I see no change in my tank ability. So maybe I am just not facing the same monsters you are.

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>I'm a level 23 Wood Elf Guardian, going by the name of Shilak on Innothule server. Feel free to look me up also, my kit isn't that much behind yours (just waiting on my Jeweler friend to finish me off a new set of jewelry). With the my regular hunting group I am buffed to around 1450ac and 1500hp on pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pull technique is ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buff up with Battle Tactics, Guardian's Call then Toughness.</DIV> <DIV>Pull from max range with my bow, if possible.</DIV> <DIV>Buff up further with Rallying Cry, if its a short pull I will do this before pulling.</DIV> <DIV>Shouting Cry when the nearest mob in the pull is in range, always have this off by the time the first hits come in.</DIV> <DIV>Mangle on the first mob, followed by Anger, Wound, Bury, Slam and a second Anger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During the fight I will drop in Shouting Cry again when it comes up and a couple of Angers when we switch to the next mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do also use Hunker Down on the tougher groups but notice very little difference in the number of specials that hit me whilst it is running.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The pulling technique really doesnt make that much difference if you are unlucky enough to have all four mobs in the group open with Barrage, it frequently does a pair of hits in the 400 region when fighting yellow cons. Most owlbear groups in the region of the Nektulos docks are fours and everytime I pull a group its just down to luck that I survive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whereas in comparison when fighting same con/size ashland wisp groups (wizard mobs) in Nektulos forest I find they will open with their best nuke then close in, their best nuke is slightly over 300. Whilst they will consistently do this, which hurts a lot and requires the healers to be ready to react, dying to it is down to what the group does rather than random misfortune.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, we have fighter mobs potentially opening for around 800 damage each and equal con wizard mobs opening for around 300 damage each. Not to mention that the wisps have much less health and therefore are easier to drop. I cant see how this is balanced at the moment.</DIV>

[OGRE4]

The only other problem I see is the rareness of adept I drops for warriors. Theres actually a thread somewhere on it, i've found 6 none of which are war, i rarely see them sold anywhere either.

[Anlari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jesperbo wrote:<BR>Casters only have one bane and thats resists.<BR><BR>Melee heroic opportunities can be dodged, parried and blocked.<BR><BR>I frequently take on yellow con groups with only 1 healer. It works fine. I got so many mitigation skills now its getting mind boggling.<BR><BR>Shouting cry reduces encounter damage, Mangle still rocks in lower combat skills on the "leader" of the encounter. Our rallying cry line increase the groups defense. Battle tactics raise our hp. I group with a cleric buddy and combined with his debuffs encounters get very managable.<BR><BR>Shield bash, Kneebreaker, Bash are great at keeping that annoying healer or Leader from using power. Concussion to lower his power.<BR><BR>I am perfectly happy with the guardian class abilities.<BR><BR>I lose agro yes. Mostly to people who are debuffing or casting reactive heals,wards right on incomming. Their fault not mine.<BR><BR>Lose agro, Use my taunts... get multiple encounter mobs use my buff line to maintain agro. It all works well for me.<BR><BR>When I am not groupped with my buddies getting 2 different healers work great. Buffs stack and my hp/ac gets a very noticable boost from 2 healers buffing their respective lines.<BR><BR>I am sure a beserker tanks fine. But how fast is the healer burning power to maintain him. Noone even have that consideration. I am sure the beserker tanks fine but at a price.<BR><BR>Everquest2 is much more about playing your character and using your abilities when its necesarry. They dont want to end up with class favorism like in everquest. Thats why all our ablities are on short timers.<BR><BR>All fighters are supposed to be able to tank.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well I agree that right now, there is no real reason to wear armor in the higher levels.  All the signifigant damage passes straight through it, and I actualy can tank nearly as well without it.  Tanked naked already once just to prove it to someone.  I seriously doubt this was intended, especialy since we have abilities that specificly do this as was stated earilier.  Also, right now a zerker actualy tanks for efficiently then a guardian does due to the fact that the mob isn't around as long due to their DPS.  The armor is laughable on everyone right now and is just so much decoration.  </P> <P>As for mages having one bane, well that is partly true.  My main is a wizard and right now, I am almost getting out damage by the tanks due to resists.  If a spell is mitigated by resists, then special attacks should be mitigated by armor.  I realy am hoping this gets fixed soon, but then I'll dread the "nerf" cry that will follow when melee damage drops signifigantly to the level it is supposed to be at.</P> <P>As for the short timers, I'm all for the short timers.  Skills are situational and should not be constant buffs we all run around with.  Thats just rebelling agaisnt change and too set in old gamer ways.</P>

[delud]

Gammut the monk here. On the topic of special attacks and AC, I think it's very clear that _no one_ would ever choose a monk as the only tank in a group above a guardian. I realize that sometimes, special damage just kills you, but avoidance is much less consistent than mitigation against strong mobs.From what I can tell (I know nothing of Freeport):Guardians are good to have when you need to take massive damage, and as main tanks.Zerkers are good to have when you need to hold aggro, due to high damage output and taunts, and as main tanks.Monks are good to have versus weaker mobs, where damage per hit is a lot lower, and as secondary tanks.Paladins are are pretty good at all of the above, and also good as secondary tanks.Take this with a grain of salt, as I'm relying very heavily on what I've read on the other class forums. At any rate, I doubt that (at least for now) Guardians need to worry that they aren't a main tank class.-gammut

[Ranvi]

<DIV>A rather old thread...but was wondering...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe a mob's specials are blockable/avoidable with shields? Because our shields don't really give AC...just "shield factor" or better termed as "blocking" ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because I would be truly concerned if all specials of a mob were to breach our defenses. Would hate to imagine the large number of damage caused by raid mobs later on. And since the mob's power/mana are relatively close to each other we cannot count on the mob running out of mana either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't know if someone has already addressed this possibility in another thread. This was the only thread I could find with a really serious approach to this issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to sum up my post...do shield factor give us a chance to entire avoid or atleast somewhat mitigate specials?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks.</DIV>

[Taurcl]

<DIV>1) You can block and parry special attacks guarantee'd, I do it ALL the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Whoever that was up there who said melee HO's can 'miss' is full of crap. Melee HOs NEVER miss. No HO's do. HO's are guarantee'd damage when completed.</DIV> <DIV><BR>And that 'avoidance tanks tank better than we do' crap is exactly that... crap. because i group with an avoidance tank of equal level all the time and if he ever gets anything mad he goes down alot faster than I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance tank : Parry + Dodge?</DIV> <DIV><BR>Guardian : Block + Parry + Dodge?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know about other people but I dodge a fair bit, not as much as parry and block but I DO dodge semi-often. I have fought white mobs and avoided 75% of their attacks entirely due to guardian avoidance skills because I block and parry like a mad man. If an avoidance tank is going to dodge more than that its going to be such a small percentage more that it wont matter imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I have no proof of the damage the specials are doing being properly mitigated. I will investigate this. If anyone else has tested this please PM me your results as I am curious because I agree, AC should still apply to damage from specials. I 'believe' it does but I have no proof and I will not state that it does without proof.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Taurcl]

<DIV>PS, shields give AC and TONS of it. They allow you to block and jack your AC by 130ish starting at level 20, think my shields up to 150 ac now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as stated in previous post, specials are blockable which allows you to avoid 100% of the damage from the special attack. They are also parryable and dodgeable. Alot of a Guardians strength is in avoidance... you may call bruisers and monks avoidance tanks because that is their primary  method of avoiding damage. Well, Guardians can avoid AND take damage, and they can do both of those things extremely well.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Taurclax on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 AM</span>

[Raiden]

Whatever happened to the "berzerkers can only wear plate" ??I'd like to see this changed, zerkers are fast and powerful they DONT wear vanguard armor.I'd also like to see vanguard get a decent ammount more AC than plate armor.

[Ranvi]

<DIV>Ah okay yes I too saw that shields have effect on AC. So...shields do two big things? Provide greater AC and a chance to block specials? If so then thats awesome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have actually noticed graphics of blocking melee attacks...my Iksar does this animation where he lifts his shield above his head. But there is no combat message that I have noticed notifying the player that he has successfully blocked or anything.</DIV>

[EQ2Shil]

<DIV>You guys are getting a little offtopic here, the issue wasnt whether AC tanks are better or worse than avoidance tanks, it was the fact that melee specials appear to ignore the AC of the target. If this is the case then there is a definate problem as a) we are doing more damage than we should and b) we are taking more damage than we should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Point a) can be demostrated quite easily as special damage is fairly consistent between mobs, Mangle, Wound, Slam, etc all hit for the same range of damage irrelevant of what level or type of mob you are fighting. If AC was being taken into account you would expect to hit low level mobs harder than higher level mobs and caster mobs harder than tank mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Point b) can also be easily demonstrated when a mob does a Barrage attack, this drops an a hit on the person the mob has targetted plus a second similar hit on a random member of the group. I have tested this by getting my group members to tell me what damage those 'stray' hits from Barrage do and it doesnt seem to matter if they are a caster in very light, a scout in medium or a healer in heavy, they all take roughly the same damage as I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Little note to Jesperbo at this point ... I actually figured out why I was having such trouble on the large group pulls, it was down to using Intercept. I used to have Intercept targetted on the primary healer all the time, but that quite often meant I was Intercepting quite a few secondary hits from Barrage on his behalf during the pulls and thus running the risk of dying (and causing potential party wipes) as I was guarding my healer to effectively. Ironically, the solution to this is to not protect anyone with Intercept and instead use less effective guarding buffs.</DIV>