Upgraded Abilities not really overall upgrades?

[Fable_E]

<DIV>Around the early 20s I started having some problems holding agro.  I assumed this was because others had Adept heals and most of my stuff was App 2 due to the original crafter bug.  Now I am not so sure based on some research a Warden and I have been doing with his spells.  I hate the fact that there is not hard data on most spells/abilities as to what they actually do.  Lets talk about Shout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shout - AE Agro (currently at Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the upgrade to shout occurs in the 20s and is listed as an AE Agro + Dmg Mitigation on the lists (currently at App 2).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tonight I am going to switch back to shout... as I can't seem to hold agro as well with this ability.  After discussing it with Micon (Warder 24 on Befallen), we have gathered that upgrades work slightly differently than we would think.  It is even harder to determine since Hate is not a number that is generated in any place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He gets:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Group Regen</LI> <LI>Upgrade Group Regen (which includes Cold/Fire Resist Buff)</LI></UL> <P>I would think the Regen per tick would be equal in these at app 1, 2, 3 etc... but it appears that the numbers show that regen is diminished slightly to compensate for the cold/fire resist.</P> <P>If this is actually the case then the pure abilities might be better than the hybrid abilities in the app / adept categories.  </P> <P>We haven't been able to calculate it really but I will be switching back to Adept 1 Shout tonight to see how this works.  I have a suspicion that my agro woes were based on using the upgraded AE instead of the normal one.  Anyway, wondering if anyone else has had a similar finding or seen anyone complaining about it.</P> <P>As always.. thanks in advance.</P> <P> </P>

[Aegori]

<DIV>One skill you didnt mention using is Hold the Line. I'm not sure if you've made this part of your arsenal, but i can honestly say i've never lost aggro using it. Yes, it has the side effect of making you stationary, but as long as you're hitting mobs, every hit you land generates aggro on the entire encounter. The only instance where this skill may not work as well is if you pull multiple encounters (in which case the word RUN comes to mind <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). I have a feeling that keeping aggro with just shout/ae taunt would be quite a chore. With HTL, i activate HTL right away, get in a few good swings and then hit AE taunt. After this, i never hit a taunt key again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>Aeg at what level?  You also misunderstand.  Shout isn't the only thing being used.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rallying Cry / Call of Command line works much better than HTL.  I learned to hate HTL in Beta in the 20s.. but am willing to give it a try.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically I use Angers, Shouting cry(Edit: Looked up the name on the list), Call of Command.  Using this setup is worse than when I used Taunts, Shout, and Rallying Cry is what im saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is not to hold agro, but that the *upgrades* are not as good as the single purpose ones.. or at least that is how it appears.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fable_EQ2 on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Gra]

<DIV>Here's what I do for encounters and never loose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shout....Hold the Line....Call to arms</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll add my other buffs in my "taunt" list if I'm trouble keeping aggro because buffs seem to generate decent aggro as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do this with my guild, and the pally is the main puller.  I never have problems pulling and keeping aggro except on very rare instances.</DIV>

[Aren]

<DIV>Druid's group regen has some of the highest aggro generation I've seen in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And druids in my group must cast it BEFORE i engage, and then wait for the mob to be at 60% before recast (or enough time to get 2-3 taunts in)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problem with aggro when this is followed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My cylcle is I pull with Shouting Cry, pop a Bury AE, Would, then Hold the Line, and use Anger as I need it, switching mobs as they fall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything stays on me the whole fight, as long as Druid regen, and cleric reactive are not cast after I aggro the mob in the first few seconds of the fight.</DIV>

[Ainm]

/agree with the other posters, holding aggro is trivial with Hold the Line. In fact, I think it is too trivial, i.e. may need a nerf.When I do not use hold the line, I may need to Taunt/Anger occasionally. Wow, what a challenge.I can't imagine why any guardian in this game would ever have issues holding aggro with the tools given to us.

[Yennik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Why can't you use shout and the upgaded skill both??  Even more agro that way.. use both AoE taunts.   Or I'm I missing something?  do we have to pick one or the other?</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Fable_E]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yennik wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Why can't you use shout and the upgaded skill both??  Even more agro that way.. use both AoE taunts.   Or I'm I missing something?  do we have to pick one or the other?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Utilization of one grays out the other.. </P> <P>Based on responses I will try HTL again  but it really isn't the point of what I was getting at.</P> <P>Ability upgrades do not perform as well as the ones beneath them is what I am looking to confirm.</P>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fable_EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yennik wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Why can't you use shout and the upgaded skill both??  Even more agro that way.. use both AoE taunts.   Or I'm I missing something?  do we have to pick one or the other?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Utilization of one grays out the other.. </P> <P>Based on responses I will try HTL again  but it really isn't the point of what I was getting at.</P> <P>Ability upgrades do not perform as well as the ones beneath them is what I am looking to confirm.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>i see what you're getting at. It would make little sense if the basic mechanism of an ability was downgraded because the ability was upgraded. Every ability that i've upgraded that i can see a visual (numerical) affect from has only been an upgrade thus far. In all honesty, i could not tell you why that would happen. </P> <P>A lot of us are still learning EQ2 and the best way to do things. It may simply be that we, as a community, need to figure out how to most efficiently use our taunt abilities. Many suggested use HTL, and i definitely agree with this. I also seem to recall from the OP you saying that you (or others) use Hunker Down. The major drawback from this ability as i understand from its description is it actually decreases mobs hate towards you. This may be a good ability to use 20-30 seconds into a high level encounter after you've been able to draw enough aggro from HTL... boost your defense and work with the aggro you've gained thus far. Seems like each of our abilities has its place and time to use, we just need to figure out what to use and whento use it so we can be as efficient as possible in our main tasks: Holding Aggro and Taking Damage. </P> <P>That being said, i think this discussion is almost premature in the fact that we're not even half way through the game yet, and i bet we honestly dont know exactly what will work best just yet <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we each have our personal experiences, but if you're anywhere above lvl 20, i'm not sure i should be giving suggestions on how someone significantly higher level than me player should play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If anyone has some suggestions and wants to start off with the efficiency discussion, please do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i'll be back a bit later tonight and add my thoughts and experiences through lvl 20.</P> <P>-Aeg</P>

[ToAsh]

<DIV>Fable:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why did you dismiss Hold the Line in the first place? I am just curious, 'tis all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a 22 Guardian and HtL with conjunction with my other aggro abilites has only failed me in a couple of situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Inquistor friend just dinged 22 or 23 I believe and he recieved a new debuff that when used pulls all aggro of me and towards him no matter what I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, my level 24 Wizard Friend has an adept 1 Fireball spell that hits for around 318dmg and pulls his targeted mob off me no matter what I do as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And in both instances it seems that my friends keep aggro until either they die or the mob dies. I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced the same? I have all my abilities pre level 20 at app3 at least.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ToAshes on <span class=date_text>11-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

[Fable_E]

<DIV>I think I dismissed it based on how agro used to work in Beta.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you are seeing is a very reduced Agro from heals as compared to what most of us were dealing with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually when we started in Beta:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Shared XP debt didnt exist.. and it was normal for tanks and healers to have 3-5 bubbles of debt every night.</LI> <LI>Heals caused so much agro that you could not taunt mobs off.</LI></UL> <P>Therefore HTL was problematic as mobs would run by you to kill the healer regardless of how much hate you were generating.  </P> <P>My assumption is after my tests tonight is that the Agro generated by HTL was not modified when the heals were reduced.  I had absolutely no problem holding agro with spam healing occuring.</P> <P>I need to test this with Rain (highest Assassin on my server Befallen (27)) going off on mobs without evading, but it does appear this ability is way better than it initially was in Beta. </P> <P>I guess our only real hope is someone can break down the equivallent of the Spell.dat file that exists in EQ2 like it did in Live.</P> <P>Oh and yeah - Hunker down is still fantastic.. with HTL working the way it does its way better than it was yesterday when I wasn't using HTL.</P>

[Ligu]

<DIV>I have never really testet shout vs shouting cry, but when i first got shouting cry it seemed to me aswell that it generatet less agro than my shout skill did at that time (adept1). But as it is atm i have shouting cry at app3 and usualy have no problems holding agro on groups of mobs, even when i only use SC for agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On another note, how excactly does HTL seem to work for you guys ? From what i remember on describtion it generates ae agro to encounter as you attack. But from what i have seen it seems to me that what it does is to fire ae taunts off every 10ish secs or so. I have before in situations where we get a group of adds, while i have ae taunt down, taken agro for the entire encounter just by targeting one of the mobs and waiting for HTL to "fire" eventhough i was out of melee range for the group and thus was not hitting/attacking anything.</DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<DIV>Its the 5+ mob fights where I always lose agro.  Shouting Cry really doesn't seem to get the job done.  The mobs I am able to hit with a few angers and such stay on me, but the rest jump to the healer about halfway through the fight and then there is no getting them off.  I use HTL a lot, but it doesn't seem to have a huge effect in multiple mob encounters... I never lose agro in 1-3 mob fights.  It never occured to me to go back to using shout... let me know how that goes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw, I am level 24 and have only been experiencing agro trouble recently.  I gather from most of the responses that many posting aren't even 20... trust me when I say things really begin to change.  I still do alright in most encounters but I dare any 24 guardian to try to hold agro in an encounter of Swarm Beetles in the Thundering Steppes.  I am going to make an adept 3 shouting cry pretty soon... I'll let you all know how much that does or doesn't help.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by ThramFalcox on <SPAN class=date_text>11-24-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:36 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ThramFalcox on <span class=date_text>11-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:39 AM</span>

[speerha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThramFalcox wrote:<BR> <DIV>btw, I am level 24 and have only been experiencing agro trouble recently.  I gather from most of the responses that many posting aren't even 20... trust me when I say things really begin to change</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is what I was thinking when I read this, as I am lvl 18 warrior(well to be guardian) and so faar I have never had problems holding the aggro except some rare occasions where we have had adds and things went wrong, then it takes a little bit untill I have it all again, but still its not really a problem at this level and I have only gotten a wee-bit into FG, my thought is that things will change alot at 20-22 somewhere from what I have read on the forums and heard ingame...<BR>

[TankLa]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im posting out of curiosity is all I guess....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive never had trouble holding agro as long as everyone in the group continues to assist "me"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont use hold the line or call or any of those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I start a pull with anger, as Im running back to my group I use anger again as soon as it reloads, turn, shield, slam, anger again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now all I need to do is use anger each time it reloads and while reloading Im free to deal some damage as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive tested this countless times, so long as I get anger off twice I can land back in camp with a mob and even be almost dead, let the healer get that heal off on me and so long as Ive kept the anger qued the mob stays with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope this helps all of you.</DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>I'm having similar problems with holding aggro during multiple mob fights.  Once the aggro is off me and on another character it's basically impossible to regain it and the result of the fight boils down to who dies first, the mob or the player.  I spam everything I have and still can't regain aggro on the mob.  Player damage/buffs generate a lot more hate than any taunt I currently have at 22.  I need to try the Call to Arms trick in mid-battle and see how that works. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moreover, this comes down to playing with smarter players that understand aggro control, but once someone draws it, I have an almost impossible chore of getting it back; and I usually group with people I have been playing EQLive with since release and who understand aggro control.  Shout is basically the only "reliable" means to regain aggro but it's situational depending on how close you're fighting to other mobs; and it still rarely works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still think our taunts need to be upped in terms of hate generated.  HTL is a good skill though but I wish it had a snare component instead of making you stationary for those mobs that others lead outside of my melee range.  Melee range is another problem IMO altogether, which also needs to be increased some.</DIV>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV> <DIV>I'm having similar problems with holding aggro during multiple mob fights.  Once the aggro is off me and on another character it's basically impossible to regain it and the result of the fight boils down to who dies first, the mob or the player.  I spam everything I have and still can't regain aggro on the mob.  Player damage/buffs generate a lot more hate than any taunt I currently have at 22.  I need to try the Call to Arms trick in mid-battle and see how that works. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moreover, this comes down to playing with smarter players that understand aggro control, but once someone draws it, I have an almost impossible chore of getting it back; and I usually group with people I have been playing EQLive with since release and who understand aggro control.  Shout is basically the only "reliable" means to regain aggro but it's situational depending on how close you're fighting to other mobs; and it still rarely works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still think our taunts need to be upped in terms of hate generated.  HTL is a good skill though but I wish it had a snare component instead of making you stationary for those mobs that others lead outside of my melee range.  Melee range is another problem IMO altogether, which also needs to be increased some.</DIV></DIV>

[Mig]

I see a trend as we move up in lvls that more often people will be pulling agro on themselves. I think that is why we were given the sentinel/ally line of spells.Tanking is going to be more subtle then in EQlive. I can see that the role of the guardian is not to be the puller, but to be the one that fights through the puller like the clerics do. He then uses his spells to pull agro off that person, and his target is constantly switching during the fight to help out the damage dealers and healers with his protection abilities. To me it almost seems like the best person to control targets and pull would be the scouts.Just wanted to add: I think this is a new shift in thinking from EQLive. I think the tank class was seen as dull to play, so they decided to make some real stratgey around it. For all of us post 20+ try this in your next session: Have your scout or primary dmg dealer pull the mobs, and fight through him. Use your taunts to get agro normally. If agro goes onto someone else in the group target THEM (not the mob) and use your protection line of spells on them. Since this is a buff, it SHOULD pull agro as well as protect them. Since everyone in the group is targetting your primary damage dealer, and your damage dealer is never going to take his target off the mob things should flow smoothly. I know it's backwards from the way things worked in live, but let me know how you all experience things. I'm going to try it out tonight and post my results.<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>11-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[Lord_Oni]

<DIV>not a bad idea at all, Mig.  Another complaint you hear commonly now with everyone being use to assisting a "MT": is me switching targets often.  One thing I've been forced to do is always switch targets mid-fight.   Whether it be to another player to use Sentinel, Allay or an attempt to gain aggro on a mob beating on a caster or healer.  You really have no choice but to do this, and the old idea of the "MT" just isn't the person you should be assisting; we'll at least assisting off me because I'm usually "Guarding" other group members.  The "Guardian" concept started to resonate a bit more lately as I'm constantly either sticking some sort of damage redirection on a healer, or caster pre, or mid-fight to ensure I'm intercepting as much of their melee damage as possible.  It's a pretty cool concept, and something you'll really notice when you have two Guardians in the same group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But our taunts still suck :smileymad:</DIV>