Pally vs Guardian; points to ponder...

[Neme]

<DIV>Hello, all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm posting this in both the Guardian and Pally forums since I don't know if those who play each one read the boards of the other <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to roll a Fighter alt and I'm on the fence between a Paladin or a Guardian.  I like both the idea of the fun, cool looking, utilitarion spells of the Paladin... but I also like the idea of a big honkin' "no frills needed to survive" pure unadulterated MEAT SHIELD that is the Guardian <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm leaning slightly towards Paladin... but truly the role I want is to be the MT rather than the assist tank.  Pallies with their ability to offer up some of their AC to another makes them an ideal assist tank even if they CAN be the MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've read here quite often that Guardians are better because:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) Guardains have more HP<BR>B) Guardains have more aggro/taunt abilities<BR>C) Guardains can use Tower Shields <--- meaning more AC, taking less dmg, thus needing less healing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've also read quite often while in BETA that any of the Fighters tank pretty much equally until lv 30'ish... post 30 the Guardian is hands down the best MT... not that the others can't do the job or get turned down for groups... just that the BEST of them is the Guardian in the 30+ game for the reasons listed above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, I have to wonder and pose the following arguements to each of the points above.... and would like your input as to whether or not you think I've got a point.  I know no one is in the 30+ game yet... but there have GOT to be SOME BETA players here who DID play in the 30+ game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><BR>A) Guardains have more HP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well Paladins have Wards and Heals that can be cast prior to or during combat, not to mention an HP buff... don't these make </DIV> <DIV>up for, and possibly surpass, the greater HP of the Guardain?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B) Guardains have more aggro/taunt abilities</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certainly when Priests cast heals and wards they generate aggro... so wouldn't a Pally be better taunting/gaining aggro if he </DIV> <DIV>can cast his heals and wards to generate aggro?  I'm guessing that Pally heals and wards generate aggro the same as a </DIV> <DIV>Priest's do.  Plus if a mob DOES turn on a caster/healer or whomever... isn't the fact that the Pally can "kill two birds with one stone" better?  Meaning he can heal/ward and taunt at the same time... healing/warding the poor squishy groupmate while at the same time generating aggro with the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>C) Guardains can use Tower Shields <--- meaning more AC, taking less dmg, thus needing less healing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While it certainly cuts into their own power pool... a Pally can heal himself and Ward himself to mitigate some of the damage </DIV> <DIV>in the first place... so wouldn't this help save on the Priest's power pool.  At the end of the fight, assuming a Pally could do some of his own healing and wards... wouldn't the Priest have the same left over power whether healing a Guardian or Pally?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway... I pose these counter arguements to myself and gain nothing but confusion on what I want to play because I can't come up with a clear "winner" and I think they BOTH sound fun to play, LOL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any help is appreciated... again... I want to be the best Main Tank I can be and be the best at keeping my groupmates alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take care,</DIV> <DIV><BR>Alakar, Rogue of Qeynos<BR>Proud Member of <BR>Uncommon Valor<BR>Permacrash Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mig]

Play what you have fun playing, just because guardians may be the best really doesn't mean anything. How is the best determined?All warriors can tank... does it matter if one does it 3% better, 10% better?Does it matter if your down time is 1 min, or 1 min and 30 seconds?Play what you want.... I am a lvl from making guardian but yesterday I saw a 20th lvl paladin riding around on his summoned horse. Almost wanted to make me reroll right there.... heh...Then later on I saw a monk doing all his kung fu crap with a bo staff.....almost re rolled again. Then a buncha of my berserker buddies came to hunt with me, and they were all whipping up on the monsters with two handed weapons and I was having a hell of a time keeping agro....again, almost re rolled....So do what you want to do. All the clases are balanced. Remember that is the VISION. I am confident if things start to get unbalanced the devs will tweak (nerf) things. Class balance was not that important to devs in EQ1, in EQ2 it's part of the mission statement.

[Neme]

<DIV>Oh trust me... I am very much a "play what is fun" kinda guy and not a min/maxer at all... the problem is I think BOTH would be equally fun in different RP'ing ways, LOL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thus I'm hoping for some "practical" reason to break the tie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate when companies make multiple classes cool and fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to admit... the horse thing and the DD thing are very strong pulls to the Pally side of things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd considered a Monk but my "main" in EQ 1 was a Monk and my "main" in City of Heroes was a Martial Artist... kinda gettin' bored of the hand to hand light armor wearing types... want something new... although... again... not only does the Monk have cool looking moves, (well... Brawlers do... never seen a full blown Monk), but Monks have some pretty cool abilities listed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah heck... now ya just made me even more confused, LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Alakar</DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>Alot of people seem to miss the main differance between the Guardian and the other warrior classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most people consider tanking just soaking up the damage. I would say the shadow knight, paladin, and guardian are about the same in doing this. The guardian may have a tiny advantage but its nothing to write home about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What everyone needs to realize is the main special ability of the guardian is to protect another character. Check the guardian skills. They include alot of nice skills such as instant pull of agro. No other class can walk into a fight and pull instant agro at the click of a button. If you look further you will see that the Guardian also has skills to block blows, parry, and take the damage aimed at another character in his/her group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When it comes down to it the Guardian is like a bodyguard. He/She is a healers best friend. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ever wondered why the programers pick the name Guard....ian. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               The Woodpile</DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>I should say that my main is a Templar and that is why I feel so strongly about the Guardian. Sure a paladin can heal me and over time try to get the agro off me but a Guardian can instantly take the agro plus he can block, parry, and absorb the damage im taking. no other class can do this. If you want to be a protector go Guardian if you want to be a tank then go shadow knight, paladin or guardian it doesnt realty mater.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                      The Woodpile</DIV>

[Neme]

<DIV>Outstanding points, Woodpile... some I'd obviously not thought of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you very much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I posted this on the VN boards and someone also pointed out that since a Pally, in my analysis, relies on spells, and spells can fizzle or be interrupted... I could be in a world of hurt... as could the groupmate I'm trying to save.  Guardians abilites can't be interrupted and can't fizzle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since what I want to be is the big guy that keeps my more squishy buddies alive and well... I think I'll go Guardian, not so much for the possibility of spell fizzles and interrupts of the Pally... frankly interrupts and fizzles are fairly rare compared to EQ 1 IMHO... but more for the added abilites to parry, block, etc for my groupmates... and an Insta Taunt sure is nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks much everyone for your replies, but most especially you, Woodpile... you pushed me off the fence as it were, and gave me some really good, valid, and PRACTICAL reasons that, for the role I personally wish to play, makes the Guardian a better choice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take care,</DIV> <DIV>Alakar</DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>Im glad I could help. Its my TrollScout good deed for the day. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                 The Woodpile</DIV>

[Dekan]

Whoever said Guardian Combat Arts can't be interrupted is mistaken. I've had plenty of the longer "cast time" arts interrupted, like Call to Arms, Rallying Cry, Assault, etc...So, spells vs arts is a wash as far as that's concerned.

[vaalen]

<DIV>It's not about xp groups. Like EQ1 it's about high end raid bosses, which hands down guardian is clearly the better choice.</DIV>

[SirBoot]

<DIV>If you want to be the unquestioned MT for the game in the 40-50 levels pick a guardian and don't look back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[grambo]

<DIV>Seriously play what you want to play.  I played many years on EQ1 as a Paladin, and I was an outstanding main tank.   In fact, I was almost always the main tank.  I would get comments about, "wow, you're a pretty good tank for a paladin."    And the thing is, I wasn't doing anything special, and I had less HP, and AC than other guys in the group.   Some people get on the boards and start spouting about how you have to be the best race / class combo,  but as a half elf paladin, I can honestly say, "It doesn't matter."</DIV>

[Mig]

Correct, our skills can be interupted just like any casters spell. The exception is forced swing, which we can get out even while stunned but berserkers have this as well. As for guardians "instantly" pulling agro...this is a bit of a myth as well. It sometimes takes several taunts to get a mob of off someone who has [Removed for Content] it off...it's even more difficult to pull it off another warrior of your comparable lvl.

[Woodpi]

<DIV>Migyb the "Rescue" skill will automaticly put the Guardian ahead of everyone on the agro list.  Even if the Guardian entered the fight just as it was ending. It is not a Myth unless they have recently changed the skill. This skill makes it very easy to pull agro from a cleric or other player in danger. Alot of Guardian special attacks also have extra agro effect to purposely allow him to keep the agro on himself. So if another tank is hitting the creature harder it doesnt mater because of the extra taunt factor. Guardians are king of taunt this is one of the main purposes of the class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               The Woodpile</DIV>

[Woodpi]

<DIV>Migyb do us a favor. If you are 25th or above try the skill out. Group with a friend and have him take a solo monster down to below 50% then use the Rescue skill and see if it turns on you. This will tell us if it still works the same way. Tell your friend to stop attacking on one of the checks. On the others let him keep hitting. It would be good for us all here to know if they have changed anything. I now play a templer so I cant test it myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               The Woodpile</DIV>

[Wasuna]

<DIV>1. After level 20ish I spent about 1/4 of mt time in combat stunned so don't even think your going to rely on spells to heal and keep agro. If I didn't taunt off before the mobs got to the group then I lost agro from the get go 25% of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Guardians get an ability (can't remember what it's called, mid 20's) that is an automatic transfer of agro to you for one monster with like a 20 minute reset timer.</DIV>

[Blacka]

<DIV> <DIV>Yanno, alot of this depends on what you want to do in the game.  I'm playing both. I have a Pally on the role play server because I like that aspect as a pally. I like the mount, I like healing a bit, I like the versitility. I don't mind not being the MT all the time. I don't mind being the second tank and helping to keep the Guardian alive if need be. I dont mind tanking adds etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See, a Pally is more fun because he can do more, has more. However, on Oasis, with my guild from EQ, who are going to be doing the high end and raiding, I'm playing a guardian because in that situation, I don't need all the frills or versatility. I'm the MT, I take hits and hold agro. That is my job and I need to do it the best. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats just one more example of "play what you like". Think about the type of game you want to play.</DIV></DIV>

[Rit]

FYI, do not leave out berserkers on your tank list. You'd be amazed at what we can do. We have the same HP/AC as a guardian, they have more protection abilities, we have more aggro capability. Both tank extremely well when played. Matter of fact, all of the plate armor wearers are great tanks, just depends on how you play and what your class can do, and how well you use those abilities. I know as a berserker I have a couple of taunts that can generally push everyone else down the hate list and me up, guardians can do this too, I dont know much about pally or SK, but I know I've seen them do just as well. This isn't EQ1, where 1 class does everything better than the others. Its about how you play really. A good tank doesnt let the cleric get aggro in the first place. What you do in the first 10 seconds of the fight usually determines what happens the rest of it. =)

[Xter]

<DIV>Its simple.  If paly's in a group without a Guardian, then you can fight the brawler or whoever over being MT, personaly, I think the Paly would be the next in line after the Guard for MT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, in a group with a Guardian, unless the palys 3 lvl's + of him, then the Guard should be MT.  BUT, you play a key roll of protecting him.  I'd much rather have a Paly and a Guard then 2 Guards in most cases.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if you want to make sure your MT in every group, go Guard, if you want to play a paly becuse you like the class better, do so.  MT is really just the one that gets the crap beat out of them the most, its just a job, no big deal.  Having to repair your armor once a day is not that much fun =/ </DIV>

[Kedl]

<DIV>Woodpile wrote: "Migyb the "Rescue" skill will automaticly put the Guardian ahead of everyone on the agro list"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rescue actully only moves you up the the mobs hate list by 1.   Which could very well be instand aggro back to the tank, unless more then one person is ahead of them on the hate list.  Also Guardins arnt the only class to get rescue.  I was a lvl 30 paladin in beta and got this ability at lvl 25.  I notice the current spell / abilities list of guardian doesnt have it listed.  Do they still get it? Is it called somethign else now?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On thing that keeps my eyebrows raised is the number of poeple that talk about how much better a tank guardians are for high end raids.  How many high end raids have been do so far?  Have all the tank classes been tested?  Does anyone even have any strats for these raids....what are in fact are these high end raids and has anyone beat them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think to many poeple are jumping the gun on saying that only guardians will be the only viable raid tanks at this stage.  Untill we have lvl 50 tanks in similar gear and we can see thier HP / AC and how well they can tank these raid encounters its all guess work, that most seems based off of hoe EQ 1 works........this isnt EQ 1.  Think work a bit differently here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardins have some sweet abiltiesm one that make me drool some times and wish I had them.  However any of the tank classes I look at have thier sweet abilties.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see paladins have a taunt at lvl 31 thats supposed to be unresistable. Later they get a str / sta / wis buff that cant be dispelled.   I dont see things like that on the guardian list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Untill guilds are riading high end content, find out how the encounters work, only then will we be able to declare an end all be all tank.....if there even is one. </DIV>