My own response to Penny Arcade

[Arthais]

<div>So by now most of us have heard the scuttle over PA's review.  And a lot of us have read Aggro Me's response.  I thought I'd take the time to create my own, which can be read over <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=10264">here</a>, if anyone wishes to see.</div>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><div></div>Edit: Nevermind found it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Red_Rock_Candy on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:14 PM</span></p>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div>Well, after reading the PA article I have to agree with him. Everything in EQII just seems so stiff. I'm sure EQII's artist are talented and blah blah blah but there has to be someone in the higher up preventing them from doing their best. This is the same stuff I have been saying for months, I guess the only way to get SOE to listen is to have a popular website, maybe I should open a site of my own, a site dedicated to every irate MMO player out there. But hey, lets be honest, EQII's biggest problem isnt the graphics, its in its own design, EQII was designed to be the most versatile MMO ever made, and THIS is the problem. They have been making sweeping changes that totally screw people, not just a few people, but a majority of the population. They totally **** around with peoples characters way too much. Nobody can be certain about the way the game will play tomorrow, and we hate that. You also have this small group of uber players that SOE will in fact listen to, and that is another problem, dont listen to that group, the other 99% of the population, listen to us, not them. Don'f nerf our imbued rings because some raider thinks they are too good, too bad for the raider, there has to be something to bridge the gap, those rings were something Jewelers knew would sell and were good items for.... sub-par players to help them succeed.Anyway, back to the topic of graphics. EQII really is impressive to look at... when the engine WORKS! I'm so tired of graphical glitches, and NO it is NOT my hardware, its the programing of the game itself, you can believe what you want.EQII really does lack that "Starry eyed imagination" feel to it. I'm telling you, SOE, you guys are seriously going to have to do some major changes to graphics to get peoples attention.#1. You are going to have to do away with the SOGA models, a game that has two different model sets because a certain percent of the population hates them is not going to impress people. Yea yea yea I know I have said this at least 100 times before, but SOGA has to go. But here is a twist. I really thought about it and if SOE does not want to go back and tweak the current USA models then we need an all new model set. I'm serious, just think about it. What if they gave Everquest II an all new model set, only this time don't let the first team get anywhere near it. No more gaudy hair up in a bun styles please, it does NOT look good. Give us more options. I mean why not? You have just about revamped everything in the game so far.Why not make the 3rd EQII expansion dedicated to graphics and customization? "Well we don't think that people want more options for customization blahbity blah blah-" WAKE UP! Why don't you ASK us in game. "Would you be interested in purchasing an EQII expansion that does nothing but expand your customization options for character looks, armor textures, graphics, and even voice?". You will be shocked at the results.#2. Some zones need a revamp. Freeport and the Commonlands are the ugliest and most boring zones to visit, I'm not fond of Nektulos either. Don't throw the lame "Well they are supposed to be dank, dark, and evil" rebuttal". The zones just dont look good, they need a revamp.#3. Make the cover art more apealing. Seriously, just think about it. Cheapest change you could make. Make the cover art pretty.But this doesnt help if NOBODY CARRIES YOUR GAME, the store I currently work at doesnt even have Everquest II or any of its expansions... we got 40+ copies of WoW though (pukes). Oh yea, and one copy of EQ Titanium. Nothing would thrill me more than to be able to sell this game to people. I am placed in the games section at a local Walmart (get bent I'm contract help) and here I am trying to sell those interested in online gaming a copy of a game we don't have or carry, sure must be impressive if the store wont even sell it.#4. Stop rehashing so many models. Ever since you bastardized my Conjurors pets I have hated your constant reuse of models in game. Everquest II is supposed to be the next generation of MMOs, right? Well would it not make sense that if you can boast that all Mob models are unique that it would impress people even more. Pet models should be 100% unique, cant elaborate too much on that. Why am I summoning a giant red lizard in T7? Argh I'm so mad I better stop talking about this....I still play this game despite how much it aggrivates me because I still believe it can be the #1 MMO. But who cares what I have to say, I'm just some emotional lunatic that knows nothing about the business and is just too overly brutal with his hair brained suggestions, right? No way in hell I could be some kind of college student that is going after a CGT degree and will eventually be attending a school that YOU have even hired graduates from. You can doubt everything about me, I will never be influential at all.<div></div>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div>Oh yea I read your article too. Some good points, yea.<div></div>

[Sabros]

<div>I just posted this in the other thread; but I've been complaining about EQ2's claymation graphics for a long time.  They're flat an boring to me (and they cause a LOT of lag on the best settings)</div><div> </div><div>I've played both games, and I now prefer EQ2 (simply because 2 level 60 characters in 6 months of WOW is too much.  But I still, to this day, don't like the SOGA models nor the graphic intense 'regular' models.  Personally, I'd rather have EQ models than this.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Moontayle]

<div>A comment about the SOGA models: They weren't done by the EQ2 Art Team and the only reason they exist within the American Version of the game is because <em>we (meaning the players) requested they be included.</em> They were never meant for us, they were meant for the Japanese release of the game.</div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<div>A comment about the SOGA models: They weren't done by the EQ2 Art Team and the only reason they exist within the American Version of the game is because <em>we (meaning the players) requested they be included.</em> They were never meant for us, they were meant for the Japanese release of the game.</div><hr></blockquote><p>That's actually incorrect.  Alternate/SOGA models were created by the American team.  At least that's what I was informed on the subject.  Do you have a link to any official post stating otherwise?</p><p> </p>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div>They are actually a join effort I believe. SOE and some other company Ga-something, which gives us SO-GA. They were actually created for the Korean Market, when Everquest II was released in Japan by Square-Enix they received the USA models.Back to my point. A game that has to have two sets of player models just to satisfy the base is NOT going to impress anyone new coming to the game. "Alternate models? Whats this? *Click* Ok why did my human just get pale, boney, and lose 20 years?". The SOGA models have to go and the USA models need major tweaking OR we need an all new model set and the other two need to be removed forever.<div></div>

[Xalibur]

<div></div><div>i dont care about gfx much, if its "ok" then its "ok" for me...</div><div> </div><div>but the watered down gameplay and the laughable class design in eq2 is just bulls1ht</div><div> </div><div>maybe thats why i log in to eq1 from time to time again. Im having fun there as a casual gamer. MUCH more than here. Can you imagine ?</div>

[Sunlei]

<div></div><p> I would think Blizzard is trying to retain as many paying accounts as they can. I'm sure they notice numbers dropping and see the soe marketing. Soe has always been very good about their marketing. I like that they offer the base games 'free'..this does attract more new players.</p><p>Remember when months ago..before the Soga mods were even mentioned..people noticed their characters lost umm lets say their hind-quarters. At that time there was a very long post of people asking where their characters nice rears went. The developer said, something like..I don't know what you are 'talking about'. Well he should have been honest and told of the new soga mods they were working on and our regular characters were altered(rears chopped off) to fit into the soga skins better.</p><p>Anyways I don't like the look of aniame' but I guess those models sell better in the asian market. Wish soe would have kept the models seperate instead of trying to have single models serve dual purpose.  We lost our nice rears for those soga mods <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I would think WoW is VERY worried about the new EQ2 pvp release. They should be worried..seems like a ton of wow pvp are making the move. Soes gonna need a lot of pvp servers and they are getting ready now.</p><p>If the best wow can do is tell their fan site to review and say the eq2  has bad graphics...lol wows in trouble. Anyone can see with their own eyes how much better the eq2 graphics are..even with no more 'nice rears' hehe</p>

[SecrAtive Girl]

<div></div><div>ack!! i meant to place this in response to a different thread. i've read so much today, i'm getting my threads confused! :smileysurprised:</div><p>Message Edited by SecrAtive Girl on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:38 AM</span></p>

[SecrAtive Girl]

<div></div>oh and to the original poster here - nicely done. i agree with your assessment!

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SecrAtive Girl wrote:<div></div><p>i don't want to play or RP in a world that reminds me of the Smurfs.</p><hr></blockquote>I once described WoW's graphics as being similar to a Smurfs cartoon, it's funny that you said it too. I don't think WoW looks bad, but they graphics are cartoonish, and I think they meant them to be. I've had WoW since Christmas of 2004, I never did get into the game since EQII takes up so much of my time.</span><div></div>

[SecrAtive Girl]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SecrAtive Girl wrote:<div></div><p>i don't want to play or RP in a world that reminds me of the Smurfs.</p><hr></blockquote>I once described WoW's graphics as being similar to a Smurfs cartoon, it's funny that you said it too. I don't think WoW looks bad, but they graphics are cartoonish, and I think they meant them to be. I've had WoW since Christmas of 2004, I never did get into the game since EQII takes up so much of my time.</span><div></div><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>i actually meant to post that in a different PA thread, but hehe :smileywink:, and yah don't know that there is anything "wrong" with WoW itself, i just don't personally like their graphics style. that and the other players seemed childish and rude. but mainly i couldn't get around those "smurfy" graphics.</p><p> </p><p>*edit* i just can't get away from mistakes today heh! think it's time to go to bed. who know what sort of jibberish i might type next! :smileyvery-happy:</p></blockquote><p>Message Edited by SecrAtive Girl on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:54 AM</span></p>

[TaleraRis]

The old Warcraft games were cartoony, that's why they went that route. It still doesn't stop me from expecting Spongebob to come trotting up the path.I much prefer the more realistic-looking EQ2 models to Princess Eyebrows and the rest of the models in WoW. And at least EQ2 characters have dimensions. It's painful when I go back and play my chanter in EQ1.<div></div>

[Kaberlyn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Sunlei wrote:<div></div><p>Remember when months ago..before the Soga mods were even mentioned..people noticed their characters lost umm lets say their hind-quarters. At that time there was a very long post of people asking where their characters nice rears went. The developer said, something like..I don't know what you are 'talking about'. Well he should have been honest and told of the new soga mods they were working on and our regular characters were altered(rears chopped off) to fit into the soga skins better.</p><p>Anyways I don't like the look of aniame' but I guess those models sell better in the asian market. Wish soe would have kept the models seperate instead of trying to have single models serve dual purpose.  We lost our nice rears for those soga mods <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><font color="#ff0000">I quit the game in Decemeber of 2004 and came back a few months later to check out the new combat changes. When I saw my female high elfs body had changed. I immediately logged off and canceled my account. I didn't re-open it until the end of nov 2005. Glad to see her butt was back when I re-opened.</font></p><p>I would think WoW is VERY worried about the new EQ2 pvp release. They should be worried..seems like a ton of wow pvp are making the move. Soes gonna need a lot of pvp servers and they are getting ready now.</p><p>If the best wow can do is tell their fan site to review and say the eq2  has bad graphics...lol wows in trouble. Anyone can see with their own eyes how much better the eq2 graphics are..even with no more 'nice rears' hehe</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I recently canceled my WoW account. It closed about a week ago. My reason is not for PvP but lack of content for level 60s. They have a survey like EQ2 for when you quit an account. I checked the EQ2 box and said the amount of content beats out WoW any day. There is only so many level 60s you can level before boredom really sets in. More then a year in between expansions is too much time. I think that is one of their mistakes. I think these bored WoW players and PvP fanatics are leaving WoW and coming over to EQ2 and other games. I still read the WoW forums and there are tons of players hanging up the PvP because of the insane amount of time it requires to get status. I noticed alot of WoW players on these forums latey also.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">WoW is worried, if they had to stoop to such a classless thing. They must be seeing the numbers drop from 5.5 million instead of growing. I am not sure what they are worried about. I am sure once they release their expansion people will be back in droves.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Well said, Sunlei.</div><div>Anyway, I love EQ2 but the lack of armor/clothing diversity is a game breaker for me. The graphics are alot better then when I first played in nov 2004. I attribute this to a new computer that allows me to view in greater detail. My account closes in a few days. I may come back after the PvP/KoS dust settles to see how the new armor looks and if there is indication of more being brought into the game.</div><div> </div>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Arthais_CR wrote: (<em>from his linked site</em>)<div>Poor taste, in my opinion.But then again, I’ve seen that quite often on PA. I typically don’t mind, in fact in another op-ed piece of mine, I actually praised them for how they dealt with mad dog lawyer Jack Thompson. So even if the critique is especially harsh, and quite possibly wildly inappropriate, I’m not going to go so far as to attack that further. I disagree with it on its face, but I cheered ‘em when they did to Jack, I can’t be too hypocritical for jeer them for doing much the same, when this time around I disagree.</div><hr></blockquote>It's not being hypocritical for pointing out the fact that the way they re-acting to the  SOE/EQ2 thing is the same way that Jack Thompson reacts to anything "gaming".   </div><div> </div><div><div>Jack Thompson bases his assumptions on the opinions of a select few that may or may not being backing him .. and .. from the actions of a few people that may or may not be gamers.      </div></div><div> </div><div>Penny Arcade is bashing EQ2 on the basis of a 10 min (*) game play experience + plus the fact that they are Pro-WoW + whatever they have read about EQ2 from a WoW perspective; they might have even taken a few minutes to read our forums but as any psychologist will tell you the negative will always out weight the positive ...</div><div> </div><div>What's the difference?    Not much. </div><div> </div><div>Penny Arcade had the high ground when they were taking on Jack Thompson for his flawed assumptions.   They appear to be dumpster diving with Jack Thompson now ...</div><div> </div><div>The comic in and of itself is fine.  </div><div> </div><div>SOE/Verant has weathered more crass comics back in the day and some of them were by people that claim to praise them! .. </div><div> </div><div>It was Gabe's 5 second "think piece" that equals the "low blow".  The picture he chose as his opening was one with all options turned down or off.  He chose the models that were created with another culture in mind.   He may or may not have even left the isle that was created with total newbs in mind.  And, the lowest .. he ripped on the Artists!  On a personal basis, none the less.  The only way he could have made it more personal was to list off the Credits for the Art team. ...</div><div> </div><div>Then in a seperate addendum, he ripped on the Smedley for having the audacity to defend his Artists .. not the game .. not to fax the police for a restraining order against them .. but to simply say .. "hey!  if you don't like the game it's fine but don't crap on the artists who do actually pour their life's blood into every pixel" ..</div><div> </div><div>Low .. bottom of the barrel low.    Penny Arcade = $0.01 in my book.   </div><div> </div><div>But, that's just my opinion and I'm just one of those that are still "Starry Eyed" .. even after a year of game play ..</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.wraith2.com/Kaisha/ForumStuff/EQ2F/StarryEyed.JPG"></div>

[SywynJali]

<div>Personally, i like the human SOGA models.  The original human models looked so odd, but the soga models look alot beter for me.</div><div> </div><div>Henry</div><div> </div>

[Arthais]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Arthais_CR wrote: (<em>from his linked site</em>)<div>Poor taste, in my opinion.But then again, I’ve seen that quite often on PA. I typically don’t mind, in fact in another op-ed piece of mine, I actually praised them for how they dealt with mad dog lawyer Jack Thompson. So even if the critique is especially harsh, and quite possibly wildly inappropriate, I’m not going to go so far as to attack that further. I disagree with it on its face, but I cheered ‘em when they did to Jack, I can’t be too hypocritical for jeer them for doing much the same, when this time around I disagree.</div><hr></blockquote>It's not being hypocritical for pointing out the fact that the way they re-acting to the  SOE/EQ2 thing is the same way that Jack Thompson reacts to anything "gaming".   </div><div> </div><div><div>Jack Thompson bases his assumptions on the opinions of a select few that may or may not being backing him .. and .. from the actions of a few people that may or may not be gamers.      </div></div><div> </div><div>Penny Arcade is bashing EQ2 on the basis of a 10 min (*) game play experience + plus the fact that they are Pro-WoW + whatever they have read about EQ2 from a WoW perspective; they might have even taken a few minutes to read our forums but as any psychologist will tell you the negative will always out weight the positive ...</div><div> </div><div>What's the difference?    Not much. </div><div> </div><div>Penny Arcade had the high ground when they were taking on Jack Thompson for his flawed assumptions.   They appear to be dumpster diving with Jack Thompson now ...<hr></div></blockquote><p>My point being that the way Gabe wrote this post is very similar to the style they used in writing about Thompson.  I had written a piece at the time basically saying "right on PA" on the whole situation.</p><p>The approach to their opinions about Jack then was quite similar about the style they spoke about EQ2 now.  So my only point in the part you quoted was that since I found it appropriate then, I'm not going to basically back out and say it shouldn't have been done now.  I'm all for slamming jack thompson publicly, I've done it plenty of times myself.  But I can't in good concious say that it was a good thing when their vehemence was aimed at Thompson, but automatically becomes forbidden when it targets something I like.  Stylistically I think it was in poor taste what they did, but I'm going to at least rephrane from going further than that, at least as far as their tone and tempermant was concerned.  Last thing I want is for me to say that I think they never should use that sort of language and attitude on their site, and then for someone to pull up my own article from back in October and point out I was QUITE in favor of it then.</p><p>As far as the professional quality of the review itself, I'll continue to stand by my negative assessment.</p>

[pera]

<div></div><div></div>While i dont think WoW is anythign special with its art, (its not i find the graphics to be pretty crapy), but Eq2 seems to be missingout on a lot of originality in its design and looks.  Take chain armor for example from T1 to T6 it pretty much looks exactly the same except for a veryvery very few fabled pieces or they are differnt tints.  there are no original eching or designs on the vast majoirty of the chain items.Another off hand, because i really would prefer this not to turn into a rant, is the weapons obtained from completeing the very long quest line ending with Wrapping it All Up.  Originaly the graphics were nothing more than a tin item (tier 1) no original graphics of any sort.   Now recently they did change the looks of the items, and i do have to admit the redesigns on most of the weapons are very nice.  But some still have broken graphics.  For example the Dark Fury Sabre of Anuk.  The streaming ruins moving down the blade do not actualy run along the blade at all they run in a cone formation from the hilt  to the tip of the blade making it look like a giant cone attached to your side.Now the sword versions (1h&2h) both have this ruin feature but the streaming ruins actualy run along th side of the blade and do not stick out excefily at the hilt of the weapon.  I'm not sure if this was something that was missed in design (would have to be very oblivious to miss it) or something else.<div>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:54 PMI really hope Kingdom of Sky makes of for these short comings in graphical design of armor/weapons.</span></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">02-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:55 PM</span></p>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Then in a seperate addendum, he ripped on the Smedley for having the audacity to defend his Artists .. not the game .. not to fax the police for a restraining order against them .. but to simply say .. "hey!  if you don't like the game it's fine but don't crap on the artists who do actually pour their life's blood into every pixel" ..</div><hr></blockquote>Smedley obviously doesnt care TOO much about his artisits... after all, he allowed a second character model set to be introduced that made his artists work moot. But who cares what this dude from penny arcade thinks? This is the first time I've ever heard of him, why is Smedly paying that much attention to him? Why is he not paying attention to everyone that posts on these forums? Instead of trying to defend his game against some jerk off that makes comics why is he not here responding to ME, to YOU, to EVERYONE that plays EQII? I just want to know.What do we need to do to get this Smedley guy to wake the hell up and stop his game from being ruined even further?</span><div></div>

[sledger]

Actually Red, Smed cares a great deal about this game and its player base.  Their one downfall could be better stated as the fact of them listening to the player base a little too much.  It's kind of like the saying "You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time.  But you will never please all of the people all of the time."<div></div>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Then in a seperate addendum, he ripped on the Smedley for having the audacity to defend his Artists .. not the game .. not to fax the police for a restraining order against them .. but to simply say .. "hey!  if you don't like the game it's fine but don't crap on the artists who do actually pour their life's blood into every pixel" ..</div><hr></blockquote>Smedley obviously doesnt care TOO much about his artisits... after all, he allowed a second character model set to be introduced that made his artists work moot. But who cares what this dude from penny arcade thinks? This is the first time I've ever heard of him, why is Smedly paying that much attention to him? Why is he not paying attention to everyone that posts on these forums? Instead of trying to defend his game against some jerk off that makes comics why is he not here responding to ME, to YOU, to EVERYONE that plays EQII? I just want to know.What do we need to do to get this Smedley guy to wake the hell up and stop his game from being ruined even further?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You do realize that there is way more art in this game than just the US vs SOGA models? ... </p><p>Every visual & audio aspect of this game is created by an artist of one type or another.   Everything from the sky in Antonica to the icons used for Tradeskill Worts.   They were all designed and created by an Artist.    The feathers that the Griffons "shed" when they land.  The butterflies that flirt across your screen in some areas.   The light shining down from a tree in Oakmyst.  The music cue that accompanies it.   Even the way the mist & fog floats around Nektulos Forest.  The path that the Griffons & Carpets take were carefully planned out to show the "best" spots.  And, have you ever taken the time to look at the architecture of the buildings in ANY zone?  Some of the columns and mosaics I have came across seem so real I swear I can reach through the screen and feel the cool of the marble or the grit of natural stone.  There is more lore in this game than in most small countries and every day they add more.  The fact that someone can seriously consider EQ2 cold and sterile is so preposterous to me.  </p><p>Every day someone at EQ2 is looking at area to find something they "forgot" .. something they can add to make it just a little more "real" to the players.  </p><p>They try so hard to make it a visually balanced game.  So that it can be run on more than just the "state of art" machines.   A couple months ago they added flowers and bushes to the Hamletts that weren't attached to the Flora Option.  Why?  Because they know that the Flora option is memory intensive and that some people have to turn it off.  But they added in these little things to help those people enjoy the game that much more.  </p><p>Every single day they are adding in new content and tweaking old content.  There is never, ever going to be a "perfect" game.  There is no such thing.  Even stand alone games can be broken.   I've played EQ1 since '99 and UO prior to that.   "You" have to be willing to take the hardships that come with finding a bug that affects "you" AND "you" have to be willing to take your turn at the plate for the Nerf bat .. or .. get out of the game.   It's that simple.  </p><p>I have found in my few short stints in other games that despite it all .. SOE really does care alot more about their players than most other games.  Yes, even SWG! That game had potential for hazard written all over it when they first got the "deal" ... Guess what?  My hubby still plays it.  Star Wars fans are weird :smileywink:</p><p> Even if Smedley never sends me a personal email in response to my recent feedback on something, I know that eventually it will be read and even possibly considered.   Every single patch has something big or small that someone has requested or someone has suggested .. as long as the suggestion was feasiable and still within the range of the lore ...  </p><p>Oh! And I don't know <insert random sports player> from Adam but I am sure that other people can give you a very intensive listing of <insert random sports player's> stats from birth to today.  Just because you don't know or never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it isn't important to someone.  </p><p>And, the game is far from being "ruined".  The day the forums are empty of anyone lurking and posting is the day you can <em>maybe</em> consider the game ruined.  Because what do people do when everything is going good?  They complain.  It's human nature :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>It's a beautiful world .. you just need to open your eyes ...</p><p><img src="http://www.wraith2.com/Kaisha/ForumStuff/EQ2F/itsabeautifulworld.JPG"></p></div>

[SavageBi]

<div></div>I play both WOW and EQ2. I dont personally like the clay like look of alot of the graphics but i do like the look better than WOW. My problem with WOW graphics are the limited uniqueness of the character models mainly. And i always found it funny how they did the intro movie to WOW. If your going to base the whole world on a cell shaded cartoon look then why make the intro in an ultra realistic beautiful manor. Its as if they're saying see this is what the game could have looked like... I found that really dissapointing.

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span>Smedley obviously doesnt care TOO much about his artisits... after all, he allowed a second character model set to be introduced that made his artists work moot. </span><hr></blockquote><p>How long are you going to continue to trot out this argument?  Seriously.  We get it.  No really - we get it!  You don't like SOGA/Alternate models.  I believe you've only said it once or twice, but it was enough for us to pick up on that.  If you're wondering if we understand that you don't like SOGA/Alternate models, then please understand that - yes, we understand that.</p><p>The funny thing is you never have to see SOGA/Alternate models while playing.  I don't.  Never.  Not once.  I also never have to see cute mode either. </p><p>Just understand that a significant segment of the population of this game enjoys SOGA/Alternate models.  I personally do not, but I don't hold it against the rest of the playerbase or SOE either.  I don't personally attack those players for it, either.  I don't bring it up in post after post after post, either.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div><blockquote><span></span><div></div><hr>You do realize that there is way more art in this game than just the US vs SOGA models? ....</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Your toon is something you see every time you play, the whole time you play. If you play in first person and never look at anyone else then I could see how player models do not matter to you.Player models should be the number one graphics concern.</span><div></div>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><span></span><hr></blockquote><p>How long are you going to continue to trot out this argument?  Seriously.  We get it.  No really - we get it!  You don't like SOGA/Alternate models.  I believe you've only said it once or twice, but it was enough for us to pick up on that.  If you're wondering if we understand that you don't like SOGA/Alternate models, then please understand that - yes, we understand that.</p><p>The funny thing is you never have to see SOGA/Alternate models while playing.  I don't.  Never.  Not once.  I also never have to see cute mode either. </p><p>Just understand that a significant segment of the population of this game enjoys SOGA/Alternate models.  I personally do not, but I don't hold it against the rest of the playerbase or SOE either.  I don't personally attack those players for it, either.  I don't bring it up in post after post after post, either.</p><hr></blockquote>I've already explained why I will never drop it, you have posted in such topics where I have explained yet you sill DO NOT understand.</span><div></div>

[G3M]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Then in a seperate addendum, he ripped on the Smedley for having the audacity to defend his Artists .. not the game .. not to fax the police for a restraining order against them .. but to simply say .. "hey!  if you don't like the game it's fine but don't crap on the artists who do actually pour their life's blood into every pixel" ..</div><hr></blockquote>Smedley obviously doesnt care TOO much about his artisits... after all, he allowed a second character model set to be introduced that made his artists work moot. But who cares what this dude from penny arcade thinks? This is the first time I've ever heard of him, why is Smedly paying that much attention to him? Why is he not paying attention to everyone that posts on these forums? Instead of trying to defend his game against some jerk off that makes comics why is he not here responding to ME, to YOU, to EVERYONE that plays EQII? I just want to know.What do we need to do to get this Smedley guy to wake the hell up and stop his game from being ruined even further?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You do realize that there is way more art in this game than just the US vs SOGA models? ... </p><p>Every visual & audio aspect of this game is created by an artist of one type or another.   Everything from the sky in Antonica to the icons used for Tradeskill Worts.   They were all designed and created by an Artist.    The feathers that the Griffons "shed" when they land.  The butterflies that flirt across your screen in some areas.   The light shining down from a tree in Oakmyst.  The music cue that accompanies it.   Even the way the mist & fog floats around Nektulos Forest.  The path that the Griffons & Carpets take were carefully planned out to show the "best" spots.  And, have you ever taken the time to look at the architecture of the buildings in ANY zone?  Some of the columns and mosaics I have came across seem so real I swear I can reach through the screen and feel the cool of the marble or the grit of natural stone.  There is more lore in this game than in most small countries and every day they add more.  The fact that someone can seriously consider EQ2 cold and sterile is so preposterous to me.  </p><p>Every day someone at EQ2 is looking at area to find something they "forgot" .. something they can add to make it just a little more "real" to the players.  </p><p>They try so hard to make it a visually balanced game.  So that it can be run on more than just the "state of art" machines.   A couple months ago they added flowers and bushes to the Hamletts that weren't attached to the Flora Option.  Why?  Because they know that the Flora option is memory intensive and that some people have to turn it off.  But they added in these little things to help those people enjoy the game that much more.  <font color="#ff9900">I wouldn't agree with what you said here becau8se my PC fits the recommended specs listed for this game, and yet, I have to play in Extreme Performance mode more often than not. How is that balanced? I know all about disabling programs/processes that are not needed, blah blah blah, none of that helps. </font></p><p>Every single day they are adding in new content and tweaking old content.  There is never, ever going to be a "perfect" game.  There is no such thing.  Even stand alone games can be broken.   I've played EQ1 since '99 and UO prior to that.   "You" have to be willing to take the hardships that come with finding a bug that affects "you" AND "you" have to be willing to take your turn at the plate for the Nerf bat .. or .. get out of the game.   It's that simple.  </p><p>I have found in my few short stints in other games that despite it all .. SOE really does care alot more about their players than most other games.  Yes, even SWG! That game had potential for hazard written all over it when they first got the "deal" ... Guess what?  My hubby still plays it.  Star Wars fans are weird :smileywink:</p><p> Even if Smedley never sends me a personal email in response to my recent feedback on something, I know that eventually it will be read and even possibly considered.   Every single patch has something big or small that someone has requested or someone has suggested .. as long as the suggestion was feasiable and still within the range of the lore ...  </p><p>Oh! And I don't know from Adam but I am sure that other people can give you a very intensive listing of stats from birth to today.  Just because you don't know or never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it isn't important to someone.  </p><p>And, the game is far from being "ruined".  The day the forums are empty of anyone lurking and posting is the day you can <em>maybe</em> consider the game ruined.  Because what do people do when everything is going good?  They complain.  It's human nature :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>It's a beautiful world .. you just need to open your eyes ...</p><p><img src="http://www.wraith2.com/Kaisha/ForumStuff/EQ2F/itsabeautifulworld.JPG"></p></div><hr></blockquote>As for the rest of it, I agree, when I can play at a balanced setting instead of the Extreme Performance mode. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In Balanced mode, the art is very nice and I appreciate the work SOE puts into the game, but there is so much more to the game than the art, and there are bugs to be fixed, a lot of these bugs have been there since day #1, so if SOE really cares, they will do all they can to fix every last bug there is in the game. It's the smaller details that really stands out when people take the time to check it out. SO why aren't SOE taking care of the smaller details as well as the overall game? It's all very well having a game that looks pretty visually but if stuff doesn't work properly, or not at all, then it's pretty much worthless.</span></div>

[Despak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span>Smedley obviously doesnt care TOO much about his artisits... after all, he allowed a second character model set to be introduced that made his artists work moot. </span><hr></blockquote><p>How long are you going to continue to trot out this argument?  Seriously.  We get it.  No really - we get it!  You don't like SOGA/Alternate models.  I believe you've only said it once or twice, but it was enough for us to pick up on that.  If you're wondering if we understand that you don't like SOGA/Alternate models, then please understand that - yes, we understand that.</p><p>The funny thing is you never have to see SOGA/Alternate models while playing.  I don't.  Never.  Not once.  I also never have to see cute mode either. </p><p>Just understand that a significant segment of the population of this game enjoys SOGA/Alternate models.  I personally do not, but I don't hold it against the rest of the playerbase or SOE either.  I don't personally attack those players for it, either.  I don't bring it up in post after post after post, either.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Excellent post.  But he has his soap box and by God he'll never get down.  The fact that a large proportion of the playerbase like soga just won't dawn on him, not now, not ever.  It's all about me, myself and I.</p><p>As for the world graphics, yes it can look amazing, but to do so you have to really suffer in the gaming department in alot of cases. </p><p>As for the braindead [Removed for Content] at PA, well there's a good advert why I'll never play WoW.</p>

[Starman]

Arthais,A good article, but my only issue is that I personally found Teldrassil from WoW to be the best "first hour" in an MMO. The area and music are beautiful, moreso than IoR. I didn't want to leave it. Other than that, you make some excellent points that I agree with.

[Kaberlyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Despak wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span>Smedley obviously doesnt care TOO much about his artisits... after all, he allowed a second character model set to be introduced that made his artists work moot. </span><hr></blockquote><p>How long are you going to continue to trot out this argument?  Seriously.  We get it.  No really - we get it!  You don't like SOGA/Alternate models.  I believe you've only said it once or twice, but it was enough for us to pick up on that.  If you're wondering if we understand that you don't like SOGA/Alternate models, then please understand that - yes, we understand that.</p><p>The funny thing is you never have to see SOGA/Alternate models while playing.  I don't.  Never.  Not once.  I also never have to see cute mode either. </p><p>Just understand that a significant segment of the population of this game enjoys SOGA/Alternate models.  I personally do not, but I don't hold it against the rest of the playerbase or SOE either.  I don't personally attack those players for it, either.  I don't bring it up in post after post after post, either.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Excellent post.  But he has his soap box and by God he'll never get down.  The fact that a large proportion of the playerbase like soga just won't dawn on him, not now, not ever.  It's all about me, myself and I.</p><p>As for the world graphics, yes it can look amazing, but to do so you have to really suffer in the gaming department in alot of cases. </p><p>As for the braindead [Removed for Content] at PA, well there's a good advert why I'll never play WoW.</p><hr></blockquote>Where do you get the statistics that tells us a large portion of the player base likes and uses SOGA models? The only place I can find to get numbers is by the posts in these forums and I don't think these posts provide very good data sets.

[Kendricke]

<div>I'm not arguing that it's a "large proportion" as was stated above.  However, it's clear that at the least, a significant segment of the population does prefer at least some of the alternate models.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[GnomeAd]

Great response.  Anytime someone starts receiving money on a regular basis from one party, any hope of an objective review goes out the window.  Even if your intentions are good (which I doubt in this case) the perception of bias makes it impossible.<div></div>

[Despak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaberlyn wrote:<div></div>Where do you get the statistics that tells us a large portion of the player base likes and uses SOGA models? The only place I can find to get numbers is by the posts in these forums and I don't think these posts provide very good data sets.<hr></blockquote><p>Well if you take these forums as a percentage of the population, I think we can agree on that?  Then any post that degenerates into a soga vs. not soga argument seems to be a 30/70 split against soga, that to me is indicative of a large portion.</p><p>Ten there is a smaller percentage so rabidly against anyone using soga that amounts to a tiny percentage. That percentage will, however, preach the longest and loudest regardless of whether anyone gives a toss about what they say.</p><p>Besides this is a general thread about an a-hole that is paid to write trash about other games by another manufacturer.  So let's leave the soga in the art and design (or lack thereof) forum?</p>

[Kaberlyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Despak wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaberlyn wrote:<div></div>Where do you get the statistics that tells us a large portion of the player base likes and uses SOGA models? The only place I can find to get numbers is by the posts in these forums and I don't think these posts provide very good data sets.<hr></blockquote><p>Besides this is a general thread about an a-hole that is paid to write trash about other games by another manufacturer.  So let's leave the soga in the art and design (or lack thereof) forum?</p><hr></blockquote><p>I seem to read more posts against SOGA but that is just my perception. I cannot agree on the forums being used as a measuring stick. There are too many factors that drive people too post in forums to use it as valid data sets. You can draw conclusions but those aren't facts. They are opinions that would need additional testing other then forum counts.</p><p>When I read something, regardless of what forum it is in, if it is stating something that may or may not be true or someones opinion stated as fact, I will point it out.</p>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Despak wrote:<div></div><p> It's all about me, myself and I.</p><hr></blockquote>The biggest reason that most of SOGA-philes stated for wanting them was because "They wanted to look good, does not matter if your toon looks good as long as mine does". Now you are trying to imply that I'm selfish? HAHAHA, you SOGA-philes get easier and easier to laugh at.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Red_Rock_Candy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Despak wrote:<div></div><p> It's all about me, myself and I.</p><hr></blockquote>The biggest reason that most of SOGA-philes stated for wanting them was because "They wanted to look good, does not matter if your toon looks good as long as mine does". Now you are trying to imply that I'm selfish? HAHAHA, you SOGA-philes get easier and easier to laugh at.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>That wasn't necessary.</p><p> </p>

[Kaberlyn]

<p> </p><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div>I'm not arguing that it's a "large proportion" as was stated above.  However, it's clear that at the least, a significant segment of the population does prefer at least some of the alternate models.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>I would agree that a "significant segment of the population does prefer atleast some of the alternate models." But the key word is "some" of the models. I for one do not like the soga models because they look like anime to me and I really do not care for that art style. I do use one soga model and that is for the human female. I would prefer not to use this soga model but the original human female is just hideous, in my opinion, and the soga model is the lesser of the two evils, in this case.</p><p>I don't really see how the forums can be used to gauge the the popularity of the soga models. Some people use some of the soga models, others use all of the models and still others use all of the original models. If people are only using some of the soga models that means they, in some way, like the originals and maybe something could be done to improve the originals so that they would be used. That makes it much harder to gauge the popularity.</p><p>Are soga models popular because they are outstanding artwork or becasue they are the lesser of two evils in "some" cases?</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><p>I realize that a few folks want this to be yet another discussion on SOGA vs. Standard models, but we've seen more than a few of those, and frankly I'm not of the opinion that Red Rock Candy should get his way on a derail yet again.</p><p>The point raised by Arthias was a good, solid argument against the dangers of attempting to appear unbiased or impartial when in fact you are paid by a competitor.  I would go so far as to point out how many times Gabe and Tycho (Mike and Jerry to mere mortals) have argued against such virtual paid sponsorship.</p><p> </p>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div>Blahbitty blah blah blahbity blah blah. Blah blah?<div></div>

[Kaberlyn]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>I realize that a few folks want this to be yet another discussion on SOGA vs. Standard models, but we've seen more than a few of those, and frankly I'm not of the opinion that Red Rock Candy should get his way on a derail yet again.</p><p>The point raised by Arthias was a good, solid argument against the dangers of attempting to appear unbiased or impartial when in fact you are paid by a competitor.  I would go so far as to point out how many times Gabe and Tycho (Mike and Jerry to mere mortals) have argued against such virtual paid sponsorship.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes. He derailed the thread. But shouldn't Despak and yourself have brought that up a little earlier in the thread instead of arguing with him to begin with?</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaberlyn wrote:<div></div><p>Yes. He derailed the thread. But shouldn't Despak and yourself have brought that up a little earlier in the thread instead of arguing with him to begin with?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Certainly so.  At this point however, I can only move forward...not back.  Besides which, a short derail is almost never an issue.  However, when the purpose of the post is completely overtaken...that's different.  :smileywink:</p><p> </p>

[Despak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaberlyn wrote:<div></div><p>Yes. He derailed the thread. But shouldn't Despak and yourself have brought that up a little earlier in the thread instead of arguing with him to begin with?</p><hr></blockquote>Absolutely, and did state that we should go back to the original topic in my last paragraph. 

[BoneSmasher]

<div></div>Cutemode for the win!

[Takaris]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SywynJalipe wrote:<div>Personally, i like the human SOGA models.  The original human models looked so odd, but the soga models look alot beter for me.</div><div> </div><div>Henry</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>Its all personal taste</p><p>.....but some people dont like that when it comes to SOGA. They believe that if YOU look at their character differently it somehow effects the way the see their Character or how it was made. I was involved in one SOGA debate and it was just silly. Dumb.</p><p>I actually use SOGA for some races and STANDARD models for others. I like it like that.</p>

[Takaris]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaberlyn wrote:<p> </p><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div>I'm not arguing that it's a "large proportion" as was stated above.  However, it's clear that at the least, a significant segment of the population does prefer at least some of the alternate models.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>I would agree that a "significant segment of the population does prefer atleast some of the alternate models." But the key word is "some" of the models. I for one do not like the soga models because they look like anime to me and I really do not care for that art style. I do use one soga model and that is for the human female. I would prefer not to use this soga model but the original human female is just hideous, in my opinion, and the soga model is the lesser of the two evils, in this case. <font color="#ff0033">Point in case right here...Your opinion....some people may like the Original model human females and use the SOGA human male models. Its all opinion. Just a taste in artwork. I love Anime but would perfer Marvel style art in the New Avengers by Steve McNiven and Peterson of the Ulitmates....But alas they dont have them in this game. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font></p><p>I don't really see how the forums can be used to gauge the the popularity of the soga models. Some people use some of the soga models, others use all of the models and still others use all of the original models. If people are only using some of the soga models that means they, in some way, like the originals and maybe something could be done to improve the originals so that they would be used. That makes it much harder to gauge the popularity.</p><p>Are soga models popular because they are outstanding artwork or becasue they are the lesser of two evils in "some" cases?</p><hr></blockquote>All in all if they did change some of the models on the originals i would use them. The fact that i have an option to use what ever i want is even better. Nothing wrong with that.

[Kaberlyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Takaris wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaberlyn wrote:<p> </p><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div>I'm not arguing that it's a "large proportion" as was stated above.  However, it's clear that at the least, a significant segment of the population does prefer at least some of the alternate models.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>I would agree that a "significant segment of the population does prefer atleast some of the alternate models." But the key word is "some" of the models. I for one do not like the soga models because they look like anime to me and I really do not care for that art style. I do use one soga model and that is for the human female. I would prefer not to use this soga model but the original human female is just hideous, in my opinion, and the soga model is the lesser of the two evils, in this case. <font color="#ff0033">Point in case right here...Your opinion....some people may like the Original model human females and use the SOGA human male models. Its all opinion. Just a taste in artwork. I love Anime but would perfer Marvel style art in the New Avengers by Steve McNiven and Peterson of the Ulitmates....But alas they dont have them in this game. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font></p><p>I don't really see how the forums can be used to gauge the the popularity of the soga models. Some people use some of the soga models, others use all of the models and still others use all of the original models. If people are only using some of the soga models that means they, in some way, like the originals and maybe something could be done to improve the originals so that they would be used. That makes it much harder to gauge the popularity.</p><p>Are soga models popular because they are outstanding artwork or becasue they are the lesser of two evils in "some" cases?</p><hr></blockquote>All in all if they did change some of the models on the originals i would use them. The fact that i have an option to use what ever i want is even better. Nothing wrong with that.<hr></blockquote>Agreed. Not sure I understand why you highlighted that portion when I myself said "in my opinion". Anyhow, I will not post here again. The thread was derailed and this derailing really does diminish the ops intent.

[Rathious]

<div></div><p>I myself see no point in even debating the soga models, if u don't like them turn them off. I don't care what your character looks like I care that you can function as you are intended. If you have some differetn features from my view who cares. I think red rock needs to stay on subject and it would make things easier. I am sorry i had to point a finger but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it get a life people. This thread was not labeled soga to be or not to be..... It is clearly about a PA attack on the art team. Anyway  I use soga models and I prefer them and i have friends who don't use then but i am not going to club them like a seal because of it.</p><p>/Turns walks into the night.</p>