New expansion coming, can I PLEASE be a Mystic in Freeport? [Archive]

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Leawyn

10-23-2012, 10:24 PM

So, a new expansion is coming, a perfect time to make a change as insignificant as this. Its time to make all classes neutral. Yes, yes, I know, roleplayers are crying foul, but there is NOTHING stopping you from being an evil defiler or a good mystic, but there is some stupid rule saying I can't be an evil mystic.As a matter of fact, I have heard stories of evil paladins wandering around PVE servers. What's this?! The whole game world didn't collapse in on itself when someone played a paladin who was based out of freeport? NO WAY!Ok, bring on the arguments about why this shouldn't happen. I think it's high time to open up the roleplay. Let me be a mystic living in freeport, and let me be the reson to tell you why, not some rule that only restricts 8 classes now.

Oxie

10-23-2012, 10:55 PM

I also play a class that cannot be from an evil city due to this. If it's ok on PvP, it should be ok on PvE. Role players on PvP servers adjusted to the change of the other 8 classes going neutral awhile ago, then toss in beastlords also being neutral when the class went into the game. Let us play our classes like everyone else can in this game and give us the freedom to do so. As far as I know, there are zero role playing guilds on Unrest, so this change should not cause any issue with that topic.Some of us want this for various reasons, but for me:I want my character to be in a city and not exile so I can do world events.I do not want to betray my swashbuckler to a brigand. It's not my playstyleI want to do quests that are offered in the evil aligned cities of Freeport and Neriak. I have over 4000 quests done, and I'd like to spend my spare time with going back and doing grey con quests that I didn't have access to...one day I'll get to 5000 quests.I want to be able to follow an evil god for raiding purposes. (Don't come into this thread and give me grief about being a raider, because I do more than just raid.)If you do not want to betray your shadowknight to Qeynos, then don't do it. If I want to betray my swashbuckler to Freeport, I should be allowed to do so...and remain being a swashbuckler.

Rainmare

10-24-2012, 03:26 AM

and I woudl again say that I've yet to see an SK living in Qeynos on a PVE server. adn the ONLY reason they did it in PVP was strictly for raiding becuase so many PVPers just couldn't bear not having access to those classes and they didn't want to be Exiles, because in PvP an SK couldn't group with any qeynos class, and your mystic couldn't have a coercer in thier group unless someone you or them was an exile. period and back them Haven wasn't much of anything. frankly I'd have told them to shove it myself.for some classes, morality is a big aspect of what they are. how they do things woudl get them killed in certain places. your mystic would be exectued in Freeport. simple as that. same as my Paladin. because part of what makes a paladin and what makes a mystic is the fact they are NOT willling to do certain things. there's no grey area between the two classes.a mystic that forces a spirit to do anything against it's will (and you would have to, in order to live in freeport/neriak) isn't a mystic. it's a defiler. period. the very acts you would have to commit to stay in freeport make you a defiler by necessity.same with a paladin and a shadowknight. thier moral 'code' and pacts with thier deities require certain acts and behaviors that simply won't fly in the opposing city. in fact they are pretty much not allowed in the opposing city, without someone kicking in your front door or you finding a knife( or several) firmly planted between your shoulderblades.Now I will say that Swashies and Brigs is kinda grey there. both of them are thieves. just one is a common street mugging thug, and the other is a high brow con artist. in thier case, it comes strict again to morality. a Swashy doesn't want to kill you unless he has no other option but to. he'd rather greet you with a smile and a handshake, and then swindle your money from you. A brigand will just slit your throat and be done with it. the best example I can think is a swashbuckler is Jack Sparrow, a Brigand is Hector Barbosa from the exchange in the first movie:Jack: lets run up a flag of truce, and I'll shimmy over and negotiate the return of your medallionBarbosa: People are easy to search, when they're dead.A swashy way of doing things would draw way too much suspicion in Freeport and Especially Neriak. all that nice-nice and friendly smiling that you need to do to con someone. if he starts just slitting throats, he's not a swash. he's a brigand.and brigands method of stab you in the back, stab you again, cut your achilles heal, and then maybe look for your coin purse will get the Qeynos guard on him faster then he could count his copper coins. but playing nice nice and working the system over killing the people that annoy him means he's not a brig anymore, he's a swashy.All that being said. what I would do as a compromise is open up Halas and Gorowyn as 'neutral good/neutral evil' cities...so if you want to be a swashy that gets the evil deity for raiding/grouping and you want more then Haven offers, you can go to Gorowyn. if your an Defiler that wants to worship Rodcet Nife...you'd go to Halas. make the cities neutral but give you the perks of the 'major' cities aligments.prolly won't help the questing part or the mystic in freeport though.

Oxie

10-24-2012, 10:56 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>and I woudl again say that I've yet to see an SK living in Qeynos on a PVE server.</blockquote>I know of a case of this sort of a situation, but odds are, you will not see the character in question because THE CITIES ARE NOT BIG SOCIAL HUBS ANYMORE. Characters are moving through this game via their guild halls these days. The ease of travel has changed so much (for the better) compared to the way things were 8 years ago. If they did let SKs go to good alignment and let paladins go to evil alignment, you would only see those characters running into the city to either chrono down or reforger their gear. It's a quick in...quick out...these days, and I suspect that one day, reforgers and chrono NPCs will be added to guild halls. When world events are happening, people run into the home city to get quest starters/updates and then out they go again. Yes, it might be different on AB because of role players, but there are no role playing guilds on Unrest. People socialize in channel chat and guild chat 99% of the time and the "face to face" contact only happens when you go to an area where you know role playing is happening. Let's say that SOE did allow SKs to go good. Let's say that guild halls suddenly went *poof* and everyone had to go back to living through though a home city like Qeynos. Would you start inspecting every character that ran past you? You are standing at the broker in Qeynos, and a character runs up beside you. Do you inspect him and gasp because you are standing beside a good SK? Odds are, you wouldn't bother to inspect and you do your broker shopping and move on. Oh look, here comes a herd of more characters...do you start to inspect all of them to see what class they are? I doubt it...you may inspect one or two to see what their appearance armor is, but that's about it. Very few people care anymore...that's the whole point. If you are offended by a good SK, then just put that character on ignore so it won't ruin your role play. Heck it might even spawn an interesting storyline of your morals vs. the mindset of a SK who is now fighting on the good side! It's hard to look at a character these days and tell what class they are because of appearance armor. I have a warden, dirge, troub, assassin, brigand, swashbuckler, and monk on my account. Five of these characters are my crafters and they all wear the NotD black and red plate armor with their crafting cloaks. Back when this game went live, you would have assumed that these 5 characters would have been either an SK, paladin, guardian, zerker, inquisitor, or templar...only because that they were decked out in plate gear. Now, who knows what class lurks behind the appearance armor. My half elf swashbuckler runs around in Speedos and a pirate hat and my good aligned bruiser is a kerra that looks like a white tiger and he's wearing the new NotD mummy wrap outfit.

Leawyn

10-24-2012, 12:42 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>for some classes, morality is a big aspect of what they are. how they do things woudl get them killed in certain places. your mystic would be exectued in Freeport. simple as that. same as my Paladin. because part of what makes a paladin and what makes a mystic is the fact they are NOT willling to do certain things. there's no grey area between the two classes.a mystic that forces a spirit to do anything against it's will (and you would have to, in order to live in freeport/neriak) isn't a mystic. it's a defiler. period. the very acts you would have to commit to stay in freeport make you a defiler by necessity.same with a paladin and a shadowknight. thier moral 'code' and pacts with thier deities require certain acts and behaviors that simply won't fly in the opposing city. in fact they are pretty much not allowed in the opposing city, without someone kicking in your front door or you finding a knife( or several) firmly planted between your shoulderblades.</blockquote>I didn't realize that a merchant, banker, or guard could tell my morals while I am shopping, banking, or wandering the streets of a city. Who's to say that Bertox wouldn't be amused by a Shadowknight who outwardly bends his knee to the queen and does all that is required to be a citizen of Qeynos while secretly reaping hate and discord outside the watchful eye of the guards? I think he would find that very clever. And who's to say that my Mystic can't walk the walk and talk the talk and plead her fealty to Lucan and all he stands for, while locking away her true motives and morals in her heart where she continues to worship and please her Ancestors that grant her her powers? Oh wait, YOU can't, its my character, but I am unable to do this because SOE decided there needed to be 8 faction-locked classes in a game where faction really only determines where you live and what gods you worship, IF you choose to worship one.I can lore away a Paladin in Freeport as a true defender of the good, who is willing to do what it takes to bring converts to his cause. If that involves licking Lucan's boots so that he has freedom to wander the streets and find like-minded Freeportians to talk into conversion/betrayal, that's HIS right. I fail to see how a character behaves in battle, away from the cities and the watchful eyes of the guards, should determine what city they can and can't live in. It's silly. There's no reason why ANY class can't earn the right to use vendors, banks, and brokers in any city in which they are willing to work the faction on.

Ulrichvon

10-24-2012, 04:18 PM

What happens when an SK from Qeynos on Nagafen server transfers to a PVE server?

Koleg

10-25-2012, 10:17 AM

<cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote>What happens when an SK from Qeynos on Nagafen server transfers to a PVE server?</blockquote>Isn't that WHY Luclin explored in the first place??

Rainmare

10-25-2012, 10:32 AM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>for some classes, morality is a big aspect of what they are. how they do things woudl get them killed in certain places. your mystic would be exectued in Freeport. simple as that. same as my Paladin. because part of what makes a paladin and what makes a mystic is the fact they are NOT willling to do certain things. there's no grey area between the two classes.a mystic that forces a spirit to do anything against it's will (and you would have to, in order to live in freeport/neriak) isn't a mystic. it's a defiler. period. the very acts you would have to commit to stay in freeport make you a defiler by necessity.same with a paladin and a shadowknight. thier moral 'code' and pacts with thier deities require certain acts and behaviors that simply won't fly in the opposing city. in fact they are pretty much not allowed in the opposing city, without someone kicking in your front door or you finding a knife( or several) firmly planted between your shoulderblades.</blockquote>I didn't realize that a merchant, banker, or guard could tell my morals while I am shopping, banking, or wandering the streets of a city. Who's to say that Bertox wouldn't be amused by a Shadowknight who outwardly bends his knee to the queen and does all that is required to be a citizen of Qeynos while secretly reaping hate and discord outside the watchful eye of the guards? I think he would find that very clever. And who's to say that my Mystic can't walk the walk and talk the talk and plead her fealty to Lucan and all he stands for, while locking away her true motives and morals in her heart where she continues to worship and please her Ancestors that grant her her powers? Oh wait, YOU can't, its my character, but I am unable to do this because SOE decided there needed to be 8 faction-locked classes in a game where faction really only determines where you live and what gods you worship, IF you choose to worship one.I can lore away a Paladin in Freeport as a true defender of the good, who is willing to do what it takes to bring converts to his cause. If that involves licking Lucan's boots so that he has freedom to wander the streets and find like-minded Freeportians to talk into conversion/betrayal, that's HIS right. I fail to see how a character behaves in battle, away from the cities and the watchful eyes of the guards, should determine what city they can and can't live in. It's silly. There's no reason why ANY class can't earn the right to use vendors, banks, and brokers in any city in which they are willing to work the faction on.</blockquote>your right, a merchant might not. but we know from the banker text that you have to have 'proper paperwork' to use his services. your mystic would, by necessity, have to belong to the Dismal Rage. you'd have to work with the defilers. you'd have to do what they would expect you to do as a defiler. and telling your superiors no won't cut it. making excuses to get around it won't cut it. they are looking for actions like that as a reason to turn you to the Wraithguard and curry favor.Your right you 'could' fool people with talk perhaps. but in freeport, your word don't mean jack squat. they don't trust eachother's word. that's why there's two detention camps of people that just happened to say the wrong thing at the wrong time that got overheard by the wrong people. but no, a mystic can't 'walk the walk' among the defilers. when you start forcing a spirit to do your work against its will, your not a mystic anymore. and it's not like you can say to the spirits 'but I have to do this to live in freeport! I didn't mean it!' they don't see your residence as a justification for torturing/forcing spirits.and it's not just how you 'behave in battle' a paladin's duty is to aid the weak. to help those that cannot help themselves. that's what makes him a paladin. that's what gives him his divine gifts, doing the will of his deity. the first time some militia guard is kicking the hell out of someone for something like daring to talk back about being robbed by the coalitition of tradesfolk, a paladin is bound by his codes to help them. that'll just get him in the same boat...or worse if he defends himself and heals himself...or heaven forbid he uses Lay Hands on anyone. ever. and like the Mystic, he'll be part of the Militia...which means it's highly likely they'll be looking at him for insubordination if he stops a beating. he wouldn't be able to abide the torture going on in Longshadow Alley. or seeing people unjustly thrown into the detention camps. or the acts of defilement in the Graveyard to the paladins that had been laid to rest there.Lucan HATES the paladin orders. he nearly cost Freeport the battle of defiance becuase of his irrational hatred. if there is a surefire way to get major brownie points with Lucan, it's exposing and turning in a paladin. and even the poor shmuck that was getting stomped on would turn the paladin in because it'll be the quickest way to get him out of that situation and some protection in the future.Now lets look at that Sk in Qeynos. could he bend his knee to Antonia, while trying to keep his pacts with the evil gods? not likely. the acts he'd have to commit would get him executed. even Kane Bayle, a member of the royal family, couldn't hide what he was. and if there's anyone that would have the connections to do that, it was Kane. bertox requires he spread disease. Inny needs hatred. Cazic needs Fear. and remember these people are divinely touched. they are channeling divine power.which means I bet any cleric could feel something being 'not right' with you. or any paladin/sk could sense the touch of thier god's ancient enemies on another person. (in fact, this was shown in EQ1, where a dark elf worshipping inny could 'see' through illusions becuase they could sense the touch of other gods) and yes, your point of we as players can't tell is a valid one. yes I can't tell if your character is a sk or a guard.but this isn't just about what we as players can tell. this is also about what the NPCs can tell. how an npc might react. yes my high elf paladin might group with a dark elf defiler as players, even though I know good and well that an NPC paladin would kill that defiler on sight. I can't sense the spiritual torment and agony that surrounds a defiler, but in norrath, a paladin/mystic/cleric/druid could. I can't tell if that blue armored human is an sk or not, but my paladin would be able to sense the 'touch' of evil on him.though while I'm sure I could exile myself, not ever complete the betrayal line, and have a house and freeport and play like I'm a paladin in freeport, technically I'm not a citizen. but there's you mechanic way around it the 'restriction' you live in Haven 'officially' and unofficially in the city you want.

Parable

10-25-2012, 11:34 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>for some classes, morality is a big aspect of what they are. how they do things woudl get them killed in certain places. your mystic would be exectued in Freeport. simple as that. same as my Paladin. because part of what makes a paladin and what makes a mystic is the fact they are NOT willling to do certain things. there's no grey area between the two classes.a mystic that forces a spirit to do anything against it's will (and you would have to, in order to live in freeport/neriak) isn't a mystic. it's a defiler. period. the very acts you would have to commit to stay in freeport make you a defiler by necessity.same with a paladin and a shadowknight. thier moral 'code' and pacts with thier deities require certain acts and behaviors that simply won't fly in the opposing city. in fact they are pretty much not allowed in the opposing city, without someone kicking in your front door or you finding a knife( or several) firmly planted between your shoulderblades.</blockquote>I didn't realize that a merchant, banker, or guard could tell my morals while I am shopping, banking, or wandering the streets of a city. Who's to say that Bertox wouldn't be amused by a Shadowknight who outwardly bends his knee to the queen and does all that is required to be a citizen of Qeynos while secretly reaping hate and discord outside the watchful eye of the guards? I think he would find that very clever. And who's to say that my Mystic can't walk the walk and talk the talk and plead her fealty to Lucan and all he stands for, while locking away her true motives and morals in her heart where she continues to worship and please her Ancestors that grant her her powers? Oh wait, YOU can't, its my character, but I am unable to do this because SOE decided there needed to be 8 faction-locked classes in a game where faction really only determines where you live and what gods you worship, IF you choose to worship one.I can lore away a Paladin in Freeport as a true defender of the good, who is willing to do what it takes to bring converts to his cause. If that involves licking Lucan's boots so that he has freedom to wander the streets and find like-minded Freeportians to talk into conversion/betrayal, that's HIS right. I fail to see how a character behaves in battle, away from the cities and the watchful eyes of the guards, should determine what city they can and can't live in. It's silly. There's no reason why ANY class can't earn the right to use vendors, banks, and brokers in any city in which they are willing to work the faction on.</blockquote>your right, a merchant might not. but we know from the banker text that you have to have 'proper paperwork' to use his services. your mystic would, by necessity, have to belong to the Dismal Rage. you'd have to work with the defilers. you'd have to do what they would expect you to do as a defiler. and telling your superiors no won't cut it. making excuses to get around it won't cut it. they are looking for actions like that as a reason to turn you to the Wraithguard and curry favor.Your right you 'could' fool people with talk perhaps. but in freeport, your word don't mean jack squat. they don't trust eachother's word. that's why there's two detention camps of people that just happened to say the wrong thing at the wrong time that got overheard by the wrong people. but no, a mystic can't 'walk the walk' among the defilers. when you start forcing a spirit to do your work against its will, your not a mystic anymore. and it's not like you can say to the spirits 'but I have to do this to live in freeport! I didn't mean it!' they don't see your residence as a justification for torturing/forcing spirits.and it's not just how you 'behave in battle' a paladin's duty is to aid the weak. to help those that cannot help themselves. that's what makes him a paladin. that's what gives him his divine gifts, doing the will of his deity. the first time some militia guard is kicking the hell out of someone for something like daring to talk back about being robbed by the coalitition of tradesfolk, a paladin is bound by his codes to help them. that'll just get him in the same boat...or worse if he defends himself and heals himself...or heaven forbid he uses Lay Hands on anyone. ever. and like the Mystic, he'll be part of the Militia...which means it's highly likely they'll be looking at him for insubordination if he stops a beating. he wouldn't be able to abide the torture going on in Longshadow Alley. or seeing people unjustly thrown into the detention camps. or the acts of defilement in the Graveyard to the paladins that had been laid to rest there.Lucan HATES the paladin orders. he nearly cost Freeport the battle of defiance becuase of his irrational hatred. if there is a surefire way to get major brownie points with Lucan, it's exposing and turning in a paladin. and even the poor shmuck that was getting stomped on would turn the paladin in because it'll be the quickest way to get him out of that situation and some protection in the future.Now lets look at that Sk in Qeynos. could he bend his knee to Antonia, while trying to keep his pacts with the evil gods? not likely. the acts he'd have to commit would get him executed. even Kane Bayle, a member of the royal family, couldn't hide what he was. and if there's anyone that would have the connections to do that, it was Kane. bertox requires he spread disease. Inny needs hatred. Cazic needs Fear. and remember these people are divinely touched. they are channeling divine power.which means I bet any cleric could feel something being 'not right' with you. or any paladin/sk could sense the touch of thier god's ancient enemies on another person. (in fact, this was shown in EQ1, where a dark elf worshipping inny could 'see' through illusions becuase they could sense the touch of other gods) and yes, your point of we as players can't tell is a valid one. yes I can't tell if your character is a sk or a guard.but this isn't just about what we as players can tell. this is also about what the NPCs can tell. how an npc might react. yes my high elf paladin might group with a dark elf defiler as players, even though I know good and well that an NPC paladin would kill that defiler on sight. I can't sense the spiritual torment and agony that surrounds a defiler, but in norrath, a paladin/mystic/cleric/druid could. I can't tell if that blue armored human is an sk or not, but my paladin would be able to sense the 'touch' of evil on him.though while I'm sure I could exile myself, not ever complete the betrayal line, and have a house and freeport and play like I'm a paladin in freeport, technically I'm not a citizen. but there's you mechanic way around it the 'restriction' you live in Haven 'officially' and unofficially in the city you want.</blockquote>I don't think your lore makes sense when an Inquisitor or Coercer can live in Qeynos, the rainbow city of good and sunshine, but shaman arbitrarily cannot choose where to live. Or can torturing victims and the minds of victims be seen as good somehow?Freeport is far and away better. If Qeynos had a merchant tent with everything accessible right there like Freeport I wouldn't gripe as much.

Leawyn

10-25-2012, 11:35 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>your right, a merchant might not. but we know from the banker text that you have to have 'proper paperwork' to use his services. your mystic would, by necessity, have to belong to the Dismal Rage. you'd have to work with the defilers. you'd have to do what they would expect you to do as a defiler. and telling your superiors no won't cut it. making excuses to get around it won't cut it. they are looking for actions like that as a reason to turn you to the Wraithguard and curry favor.Your right you 'could' fool people with talk perhaps. but in freeport, your word don't mean jack squat. they don't trust eachother's word. that's why there's two detention camps of people that just happened to say the wrong thing at the wrong time that got overheard by the wrong people. but no, a mystic can't 'walk the walk' among the defilers. when you start forcing a spirit to do your work against its will, your not a mystic anymore. and it's not like you can say to the spirits 'but I have to do this to live in freeport! I didn't mean it!' they don't see your residence as a justification for torturing/forcing spirits.and it's not just how you 'behave in battle' a paladin's duty is to aid the weak. to help those that cannot help themselves. that's what makes him a paladin. that's what gives him his divine gifts, doing the will of his deity. the first time some militia guard is kicking the hell out of someone for something like daring to talk back about being robbed by the coalitition of tradesfolk, a paladin is bound by his codes to help them. that'll just get him in the same boat...or worse if he defends himself and heals himself...or heaven forbid he uses Lay Hands on anyone. ever. and like the Mystic, he'll be part of the Militia...which means it's highly likely they'll be looking at him for insubordination if he stops a beating. he wouldn't be able to abide the torture going on in Longshadow Alley. or seeing people unjustly thrown into the detention camps. or the acts of defilement in the Graveyard to the paladins that had been laid to rest there.Lucan HATES the paladin orders. he nearly cost Freeport the battle of defiance becuase of his irrational hatred. if there is a surefire way to get major brownie points with Lucan, it's exposing and turning in a paladin. and even the poor shmuck that was getting stomped on would turn the paladin in because it'll be the quickest way to get him out of that situation and some protection in the future.Now lets look at that Sk in Qeynos. could he bend his knee to Antonia, while trying to keep his pacts with the evil gods? not likely. the acts he'd have to commit would get him executed. even Kane Bayle, a member of the royal family, couldn't hide what he was. and if there's anyone that would have the connections to do that, it was Kane. bertox requires he spread disease. Inny needs hatred. Cazic needs Fear. and remember these people are divinely touched. they are channeling divine power.which means I bet any cleric could feel something being 'not right' with you. or any paladin/sk could sense the touch of thier god's ancient enemies on another person. (in fact, this was shown in EQ1, where a dark elf worshipping inny could 'see' through illusions becuase they could sense the touch of other gods) and yes, your point of we as players can't tell is a valid one. yes I can't tell if your character is a sk or a guard.but this isn't just about what we as players can tell. this is also about what the NPCs can tell. how an npc might react. yes my high elf paladin might group with a dark elf defiler as players, even though I know good and well that an NPC paladin would kill that defiler on sight. I can't sense the spiritual torment and agony that surrounds a defiler, but in norrath, a paladin/mystic/cleric/druid could. I can't tell if that blue armored human is an sk or not, but my paladin would be able to sense the 'touch' of evil on him.though while I'm sure I could exile myself, not ever complete the betrayal line, and have a house and freeport and play like I'm a paladin in freeport, technically I'm not a citizen. but there's you mechanic way around it the 'restriction' you live in Haven 'officially' and unofficially in the city you want.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but all of this is just YOUR opinion of how things "should" be. I disagree. I disagree that a Paladin couldn't resist someone getting beat on for the greater good he could accompish by hiding his true motives. I disagree that my Mystic can't have a dark heart and perform evil acts while still treating her ancestors that grant her all her powers with the respect they deserve.I mean, SERIOUSLY, if they can rationalize an assassin being good, killing for the greater good, then they can rationalize ANYTHING. Things are different, lore-wise, than they ever were 8 years ago when the game launched, heck even a few years ago when they removed the faction restriction on the other 8 classes. I don't want to ruin your roleplaying, if you want to destest and not talk to any SK, that's your right. But maybe the queen is getting desperate, and is willing to bend the rules a bit more to try and "win" this "fight" between her and Lucan. Perhaps Lucan has no problem exploiting these "good" people for his own means. I don't know, its not my job to make the lore. I just want to live in Freeport, and being one of the 8 out of 25 classes that can't is annoying =(

Rainmare

10-25-2012, 09:08 PM

except there's reasons that are perfectly valid that DON'T interfere with the 'lore' of the cities or those in them for those other classes.Coercers/Illusionist - both those types of enchantment magic have been taught in BOTH major cities for well over 500 years. the illys got thrown out of freeport by a duel to prove which 'type' of enchantment was stronger. loser got the boot...Opal Darkbriar was the 'coercer' that did it, who become Lucan's right hand woman as the Foci.Coercers were taken out of Qeynos because of issues with them abusing thier powers for personal gain to ro aid the Bloodsabers.Rangers/assassins - the 'evil' ranger isn't evil at all. there's nothing in the red hoods that makes them evil other then thier pact with Lucan, and the services they have to provide him. they are there strictly becuase they are hunting the orc clan for a personal vendetta against thier leader.the 'good' assassin isn't in it for money. he's not there killing for bounties. he's there to fight fire with fire. to stop actual assassins from hitting thier targets, particularly the Bayle family. if anything, the Qeynos 'assassin' is actually just a city trained ranger.Inquisitor/Templar - they are only those classes in name as far as the lore of it is concerned. a Freeport 'Templar' is an inquisitor that tries to convert with his words rather then his mace. he's an evangelical. he's still spouting the doctrine of Lucan as a god, or Fear/Hate/War/Disease...just he won't smash your face in if you disagree with him during his sermon.the qeynos 'inquisitor' is just a templar that prefers to get his mace dirty in the fight, rather then wait for the injured to be sent to him.but for your Mystic, the defining trait of being a mystic, the very thing that seperates them is how they treat the spirits. and we're NOT talking just your ancestors. even if you were respectful to them, you'd still be a defiler because you are forcing and defiling the spirits of the bear/ox/monkey/bat...your torturing the Truespirits to make them do things for you. a mystic is respectful to all spirits, not just thier ancestral ones.as to the paladin, how is he going to serve the greater good? he CAN'T DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD REVEAL HIS NATURE. he can't aid the sick. he can't try to convert people to his cause(especially if his is a Marr follower). he can't offer prayer to Mithaniel/Tunare/Brell. especially mithaniel or erollisi. he can't use Lay Hands, even if it means costing someone thier life. he can't cure any of the diseases that a Dismal Priest of bertox, or a necromancer of the Academy might use to convert or force false confessions. he can't question Lucan. he can't question the necromancers defiling the graves of the paladins in the graveyard.if he does any of those things, it's instant trip to execution plaza.and not just if the militia/academy/rage/seafury factions see him, but if anyone sees him. because Lucan would love nothing more then to purge a paladin from his city. there is virtually no better way to curry favor with Lucan and the Wraithguard then to expose a paladin. no faster route from 'street rat' to 'model citizen'.the Queen isn't desperate to fight lucan. if she wanted to 'win' the war, she would have left Lucan to rot in the void. war is over, Qeynos wins. Lucan as I said before, nearly cost Freeport's existance over his need to kill a contingent of Paladins during the battle of Defiance. I don't think he's willing to even 'use' them if he was willing to possibly sacrifice Freeport to the Rallosian Empire over the idea that some marr paladins came to help him/the Avatar of Tranquility out.

Leawyn

10-26-2012, 01:02 AM

blah blah blah, they can do it on PVP servers, we should be able to on PVE servers.

Oxie

10-26-2012, 01:17 AM

This is past the lore and roleplaying aspect of the game. What can be justified on PvP lore can be justified on PvE lore. Yes, I know they did it to balance raiding in PvP, but it's beyond that now...especially since an evil aligned paladin can leave PvP and end up in Freeport on PvE.We want something different in this game for the characters that we play. Unlike Mae with her evil hobbit army, I only have one character in this game that I've done EVERYTHING on. He crafts, he quests, he solos, he does groups, he raids. I want to do more with this character, but being locked to "good alignment only" limits me to do so. Don't tell me to roll an alt to do those things, because it's not the same being on another character like it is my main.This character was made on Nov 12, 2004. I've played a total of 712d and 47m on him as this posting. I don't want him to be a brigand. I want him to have the ability to live in Freeport and do the city quests there. Why can't you see past your opinion just once and see where we're coming from? I respect you like to roleplay, but you have the option to ignore people who want the choice to play good aligned shadowknights and evil aligned paladins (and the other 6 classes that are lumped into this whole thing.) Please stop trying to write your own long winded opinions into the classes and the stories behind NPCs, lore (that has changed many times by SOE's own storytellers), and pushing your views of how we see and play our classes and characters. Some of us are not free to play our way, and we're being kept from doing what we want with our characters in a game that we've played since the first week of launch.

zehly

10-26-2012, 01:30 AM

We don't want you in Freeport. I assure you, any goodie-two-shoe Mystics, Paladins, or Conjuors that I see running around my beloved Freeport will be the next person Lucan D'Lere publicly executes. I only leave out Swashbucklers because, well, they are basically evil--with the pillaging, plundering, and eye-patches. You would break the game's lore if you let them in. Do you think Her Majesty in Goodie-Land would much like Necromancers running rampant in NQ? Hardly. If you want to be evil, play an evil toon. This is an RPG, after all.

Oxie

10-26-2012, 02:00 AM

<cite>zehly wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to be evil, play an evil toon. This is an RPG, after all.</blockquote>I've yet to RPG a single minute in this game, and I'm willing to bet that goes for a big % of the current population that still plays this game.

Leawyn

10-26-2012, 02:02 AM

<cite>zehly wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to be evil, play an evil toon. This is an RPG, after all.</blockquote>An RPG that won't let me role play as I want to. I have evil halflings. Its how I role...

Rainmare

10-26-2012, 04:05 AM

yeah but Ruckus you have a method to get your evil diety on a 'good' toon. you exile.yes, you can't get quests. yes, you might never hit the 5k quest mark using old grey quests from freeport/neriak. but that is the price you pay for being a swashbuckler.I'm never going to get some of those achievements, becuase I can't get access to things as a paladin in neriak/freeport/Nek forest. the npcs won't talk to me.not everything in this game is available to you. some of the choices you make matter. and yes, the 'lore' has changed in some cases. usually in the manner of 'this guy is a lot more good/evil/badass then you thought he was' becuase you just learned somethign new about him.very little in the lore has changed reguarding the cities, how they function, who is allowed in them and why.like I said thier 'lore' reasons for the classes they 'turned' neutral are valid, they work, and they don't conflict with anything...because the 'differences' are all in mechanics, not the lore.yes they caved into the PvPers, trying desperately to keep some semblence of pvp alive. something I also disagreed with. they should have just let it die. just like the battlegrounds. they should have left it for dead.right now there are 8 classes where they got no valid lore to say it works. you can't even fake it becuase the very core nature of what these characters are is tied into it.Laewyn wants evil halflings. she has the choice to make evil halfings. she's lucky she has that option as it wasn't an option in EQ1. but there are plenty of classes that you can 'claim' evil on. some of them you can't. and they aren't likely to budge on it at this point, and I don't want them to. she wants to have a house in freeport, she can go exile, and buy one. there, she's a mystic in Freeport.if they caved, would I stop playing? not likely. but I will throw out every lore argument I have, every example from norrath I can muster, and every reason given in game via quests or epics or npc talk that says 'No' to the idea to keep it from happening.the last classes left that are alignment specific on PvE are the ones that are most divided by good and evil. the very nature, core of what they are depends on how they act. a mystic that torturers spirits, even if it's not thier own ancestors, is a deflier. they are defiling spirits. you can't argue that one away. a paladin that does nothing and allows innocent people to suffer, or causes thier suffering either by his own actions or lack thereof isn't a paladin. his divine powers would be stripped from him.a swashblucker that forgoes cunning and tactful halftruths and lies, to instead brutally dispatching those that stand in his way or those that he wants something from, isn't a swashbuckler. his aversion to killing and his reliance on his silver tongue and wit is what defines him from a brigand.

Oxie

10-26-2012, 12:02 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>a swashblucker that forgoes cunning and tactful halftruths and lies, to instead brutally dispatching those that stand in his way or those that he wants something from, isn't a swashbuckler. his aversion to killing and his reliance on his silver tongue and wit is what defines him from a brigand.</blockquote>Please stop interjecting your opinions of lore on my class. I still cannot wrap my head around the justifications that came from making assassins good and rangers evil. Likewise with monks and bruisers...templars and inquisitors... illusionists and coercers. But yet, swashbucklers and brigands cannot be neutral? Those names alone still say "good" and "evil" to me. Again, if SOE can rewrite lore on PvP, then it should happen across all servers.Let's say you decided to move to the PvP server and managed to find a group of people who role played while they PvPed. You would then have to learn to role play and interact with all 25 classes being neutral...just like you would have to do if SOE allowed the last 8 classes to be neutral. Or would you opt to /ignore the players who are running around as good SKs and evil paladins, just because of who and what they chose to be is now ruining your RPing life.I wouldn't be so annoyed with this whole situation if they left the other 8 classes good/evil, but as soon as they went and let them be neutral, I was like..."what about the rest of us?" Because 17 out of 25 classes get to go back and forth without issue, then it's only fair that the last 8 classes get the same consideration. The price I pay is the same price you pay...$15 a month. Others get to do things with their characters that my character cannot do...which imbalances the game for me. And for the 100th time, I do not want to go into exile, because that then keeps me from doing city-based world events. You're exiled? Oh too bad, you cannot be a part of this content that you've paid for! I will not go brigand, because I just do not like the playstyle of the class (I have a level 90 brigand, and I just don't like it.)If SOE opened up all classes to being neutral, my swashbuckler would go to Freeport so I could do evil aligned quests on him and pick an evil god to follow. My brigand would then move to Qeynos and he would turn into a swashbuckler, too. That way I'd have two swashbucklers on one account and I could then gear my ex-brigand up and play him during off raid nights in PUG raids and do instances with guildies who switch to alts once we get the 90 minute lockout from an instance. This ex-brigand swashbuckler would then allow me to keep on doing good alignment city-based world events while I'm doing evil aligned city-based events on Ruckus.

Leawyn

10-26-2012, 12:18 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>the last classes left that are alignment specific on PvE are the ones that are most divided by good and evil. the very nature, core of what they are depends on how they act. a mystic that torturers spirits, even if it's not thier own ancestors, is a deflier. they are defiling spirits. you can't argue that one away. a paladin that does nothing and allows innocent people to suffer, or causes thier suffering either by his own actions or lack thereof isn't a paladin. his divine powers would be stripped from him.</blockquote>You keep going on about mystics "having to torture spirits" but who says I have to? Like I said, there's no reason at all that I couldn't use the same powers now to perform evil acts. The spirits would know my own motivations, but who's to say that what I consider "right and just" isn't evil in the eyes of the general public.

ChrissyFaey

10-26-2012, 02:21 PM

I doubt they will make Mystic a neutral class ... they appear to have chosen one class set from each archtype to represent good/evil. Swashbuckler/Brigand for Scout, Paladin/Shadowknight for Fighter, Coercer/Illusionist for Mage, and Defiler/Mystic for Priest. One can't be changed without all the others being changed, less the drama come. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Oxie

10-26-2012, 03:16 PM

<cite>ChrissyFaey wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt they will make Mystic a neutral class ... they appear to have chosen one class set from each archtype to represent good/evil. Swashbuckler/Brigand for Scout, Paladin/Shadowknight for Fighter, Coercer/Illusionist for Mage, and Defiler/Mystic for Priest. One can't be changed without all the others being changed, less the drama come. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>You mean the same drama that people managed to get over and they kept on playing the game when all classes went neutral on the PvP servers? I highly doubt they lost many customers when every class went neutral on the PvP servers with the excuse of it "ruining their game play and role play". Again, if a good SK simply ruins your role play, then put them on /ignore like you do anyone else who bothers you. You do not have to interact with them. If you are a role player, you're going to know just about everyone in the role playing community on your server. You'll add the good role players to your friends list, and you'll ignore and snub the people who do not know the difference between a fae and an arasai. You'll join a guild that has a role playing theme and mentality, and you'll associate with other guilds and players that role play. Your characters already pass by non-role playing characters, and you probably don't interact with them much, other than an /emote. Non-role players could care less who or what your storyline is about. We're just here to do OUR thing, and we stay out of your little world...just like you all should do the same with us, and let us be able to have changes to our little world.If you role play in your guild hall or homes, and people come in to cause trouble with your brand of fun, then you block their access to your corner of Norrath. Just move along and go about your business...after awhile, people get bored when they are not getting you riled up and causing havoc in your life.

Davngr1

10-26-2012, 05:25 PM

all classes should be able to live in any city of their choosing exept paladins they should all be exiled to sol's eye!

ZachSpastic

10-28-2012, 02:19 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>yeah but Ruckus you have a method to get your evil diety on a 'good' toon. you exile.yes, you can't get quests. yes, you might never hit the 5k quest mark using old grey quests from freeport/neriak. but that is the price you pay for being a swashbuckler.I'm never going to get some of those achievements, becuase I can't get access to things as a paladin in neriak/freeport/Nek forest. the npcs won't talk to me.not everything in this game is available to you. some of the choices you make matter. and yes, the 'lore' has changed in some cases. usually in the manner of 'this guy is a lot more good/evil/badass then you thought he was' becuase you just learned somethign new about him.very little in the lore has changed reguarding the cities, how they function, who is allowed in them and why.like I said thier 'lore' reasons for the classes they 'turned' neutral are valid, they work, and they don't conflict with anything...because the 'differences' are all in mechanics, not the lore.yes they caved into the PvPers, trying desperately to keep some semblence of pvp alive. something I also disagreed with. they should have just let it die. just like the battlegrounds. they should have left it for dead.right now there are 8 classes where they got no valid lore to say it works. you can't even fake it becuase the very core nature of what these characters are is tied into it.Laewyn wants evil halflings. she has the choice to make evil halfings. she's lucky she has that option as it wasn't an option in EQ1. but there are plenty of classes that you can 'claim' evil on. some of them you can't. and they aren't likely to budge on it at this point, and I don't want them to. she wants to have a house in freeport, she can go exile, and buy one. there, she's a mystic in Freeport.if they caved, would I stop playing? not likely. but I will throw out every lore argument I have, every example from norrath I can muster, and every reason given in game via quests or epics or npc talk that says 'No' to the idea to keep it from happening.the last classes left that are alignment specific on PvE are the ones that are most divided by good and evil. the very nature, core of what they are depends on how they act. a mystic that torturers spirits, even if it's not thier own ancestors, is a deflier. they are defiling spirits. you can't argue that one away. a paladin that does nothing and allows innocent people to suffer, or causes thier suffering either by his own actions or lack thereof isn't a paladin. his divine powers would be stripped from him.a swashblucker that forgoes cunning and tactful halftruths and lies, to instead brutally dispatching those that stand in his way or those that he wants something from, isn't a swashbuckler. his aversion to killing and his reliance on his silver tongue and wit is what defines him from a brigand.</blockquote>There is absolutely no truth in anything you have said in any of your posts in this thread.For example, mystics have spells/CAs that cause disease. So much for your 'mystics are only good' premise. My Paladin has done a lot of truly evil things in EQ2 because this is a video game where I have to grind for AA which means I will take any quest and kill any NPC as part of the game. And his divine powers have not been stripped from him. In fact, because you seem not to know this, priests and crusaders are not required to serve any deity at all. Deities were not added until EoF.What you can not argue away is that your arguments have no foundation.

Rainmare

10-28-2012, 10:08 AM

okay let me explain this to you as simple as I can, Zach.you're right, the gods were not made worshipable until EoF. the mechanics of the deity system were not there. the LORE of the classes very much so WAS. A cleric or a crusader, by the very defining of the class, worship deities. that's why I have spells like Divine Smite. or Smite Evil. or Holy Aid.yes, a Mystic has spells that cause disease. So do Dirges. So do Warlocks. the use of disease spells does not make one good OR evil. Worshipping Bertox does...becuase of the requirements you are obligated to perform in his service.yes, your Paladin, for mechanics reasons, will never have his paladinhood stripped from him. for mechanics reasons, I'm sure you've betrayed to exile to do quests for your quest count and not lost your divine power. becuase if they actually did make you adhere to the doctrine of Marr/Tunare/Brell....people would be screaming to high heaven about why they suddenly went from being a paladin to a guardian becuase they AEed to death a group of city guards for AA.the Lore of the Games states that all crusaders and clerics worship the gods. that's where they draw thier power from. Shadowknights commonly worship Inny, Cazic, and Bertox. Paladins are most commonly Tunare, Marr, and Brell. but they do worship the divine.a Mystic, as shown in the mystic epic, and how the class is defined, as well as the way the cities operate, can't do what they do in Freeport without becoming a Defiler. A mystic respects the spirit world, communes with it, and is an instrument of justice for the spirits such as thier ancestors and the Truespirit. They work with the spirits, or allow the spirits to work through them. yes they can curse thier enemies with diseases/debuffs and call on spiritual power to harm thier enemies and aid thier allies.A Defiler doesn't gives two figs for the spirit world other then to see it as a huge untapped power source for thier own ambitions. They may, or may not, show respect for thier ancestors, but the rest of the spirits are fair game. they don't ask for help, they don't seek wisdom or guidance from teh spirits. they break them, twist them and force them to do thier bidding. you see that in the Defiler epic.Now we'll look into Freeport. Freeport has a preist guild, same as Qeynos. Freeport's preist guild enspouses the virtues of Hate, Fear, and War primarily. the shamans of Freeport are Defilers. which means a mystic in Freeport would have to answer to, and work with, Defilers.any misstep. any action that doesn't fit with what a defiler expects you to do draws suspicion. trying to make excuses draws suspicion. that's shown in dozens of quests in freeport and even in NPC talk. it's even in the betrayal line itself. you do NOT question your superiors, or thier methods. and you do exactly as you are told..or your a traitor and turned over to the Militia/Wraithguard.a Mystic trying to live in freeport would have to use defiler methods. they'd have to behave as a defiler behaves. and not just by word, but action. and when you start torturing the spirits, bending them to your will and 'defiling' them..your not a mystic anymore, your a defiler.and by the same token, a defiler couldn't stay in Qeynos. the torturing of spirits wouldn't be tolerated. they'd be driven out, arrested, or executed for thier crimes. if they decided to try and control themselves, to seek guidance and wisdom and work with the spirits rather then running roughshod over them...they'd no longer be defilers, but Mystics.Coercers got into Qeynos because the a) she had insight into Freeport's Academy workings and b) Coercer spells had been taught in Qeynos for literally centuries...when they simply taught 'Enchantment'. not to mention, when you learn about them, the coercers are being closely monitored. and a big reason they were there is Bellengere the Three's support to learning new magics. Illusionists were allowed in freeport basically because two of the times Lucan got screwed over in Freeport was Tayil (using an illusion to appear as a Lucanic Knight) and Opal (coercer and master illusionist herself) he allowed the illusionists in to counter being screwed over again, and for similar reasons that Illusionst magic was taught a long time ago and basically only outlawed becuase of a duel between a coercer and illusionist in the first place.bruisers got into qeynos based on the Ashen Order/Ashen disciples, same way monks got into Freeport. the Swiftails are martial artists that believe in meditiation, discipline, and focus...thier methods are none the less brutal, but thier ideaology is a monk order. the Graystone bruisers are basically Qeynos' fight club. they don't care about fancy moves or mediation or inner peace...they focus on physical strength and stamina. those classes were neutral in lore long before they were neutral in mechanics. a bruiser seeks enlightment through physical prowess, a monk seeks it through mediation and inner focus.the assassins of Qeynos are an anti-terrorist unit. (also based very heavily on the assassin's of Assassin's Creed) they apply ranger tactics to urban enviroments, and thier job is to recognize the methods of Freeport/Neriak assassins and cut them off before they hit thier targets. the Red Hoods are a group of Green Hoods that are following the vengeful mission of thier leader based on the death of his beloved to an Orc (after his need to strike back at the orcs of Zek was denied). they are in freeport because that were the trail ended for that particualr orc/his subclan, and he bartered service training members of Freeport for a base of operations to hunt them. again the lore fits on what these classes are/do.Inquisitors in Qeynos are taking the 'battle cleric' approach we adventurers already are doing. according to the lore of the Qeynos Inquisitor, all adventuring good guy clerics are inquisitors. thier 'inquisitor' is simply a cleric that wants to stand in the middle of the fight and heal injuries on site while bashing in the head of the creature that just caused said injury. the Freeport Templar is exactly what we would consider an Evangelical preacher. they preach the sermons of X god (or lucan as a deity) with insane fervor, converting people through inspirational and feverish sermon. the only difference between a Freeport Inquisitor and a Freeport Templar in the lore is if you turn down a Templar, he might get louder about your lack of faith and you might get in a bit fo trouble with the wraithguard about 'questioning lucan'..and the inquisitor will hit you in the head with his mace and torture you till you give him the 'right' answer.And yes, while I wasn't thrilled with it, at least the reasoning made sense. you coudl see a valid path to what they did lorewise.remember that all the 'opposing' classes are not hiding out in the other city. they aren't lurking in the sewer system or cowering from the city guard. they are accepted proffessions that are working parts of thier various guilds. how would you put a con man in a guild filled with cut throats, and keep him a con man without one of his brigand 'associates' slitting his throat and dumping the body in the harbor? yes you might have a personal story that allows it. just like I could have a personal story that says my paladin fights the good fight in Freeport. and yes, for mechanic reasons, Lucan can't spawn 7 unkillable wraithguard to beat me up and execute me at Execution Plaza everytime I set foot in Freeport.there would have to be a reason that any mystic, at all, could live and work as a mystic in freeport. same as a swashy, without thier 'guildmates' killing them or throwing them out or Lucan himself not wanting them mass slaughtered.from a lore standpoint..a defilers method is faster, but just as effective. a brigand gets the job done quicker, and probably with more profit. (looting thier body on top of stealing everything else.) Paladins Lucan flat out wants dead. all of them, without question but especially members of the Order of Marr.if they gave you what you want, then they'd have to answer those questions. and this dev team apparently does take those kinds of questions a little more seriously then you might like...and like someone else stated it seems they wanted to keep 1 of each archtype 'good/evil'Paladin/Sk was the obvious fighter choice.I think scout coudl have gone Assassin/Ranger or Swashy/Brig...they probably found doing the lore aspect easier with assassin/ranger...so swash/Brig got the good/evil setting.mages they picked the most obviously evil one (necro) so by default conjies are all goodies.I think with priests they did the same kinda thing. Inq/Temp coudl have worked, so does Mystic/Defiler....but the Inq/Temp was a lot easier to do the lore reasons for(provided they coudl even come up with something for the shamans), so Mystic/Defiler become the good/evil set.

Leawyn

10-28-2012, 01:55 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>a Mystic, as shown in the mystic epic, and how the class is defined, as well as the way the cities operate, can't do what they do in Freeport without becoming a Defiler. A mystic respects the spirit world, communes with it, and is an instrument of justice for the spirits such as thier ancestors and the Truespirit. They work with the spirits, or allow the spirits to work through them. yes they can curse thier enemies with diseases/debuffs and call on spiritual power to harm thier enemies and aid thier allies.A Defiler doesn't gives two figs for the spirit world other then to see it as a huge untapped power source for thier own ambitions. They may, or may not, show respect for thier ancestors, but the rest of the spirits are fair game. they don't ask for help, they don't seek wisdom or guidance from teh spirits. they break them, twist them and force them to do thier bidding. you see that in the Defiler epic.Now we'll look into Freeport. Freeport has a preist guild, same as Qeynos. Freeport's preist guild enspouses the virtues of Hate, Fear, and War primarily. the shamans of Freeport are Defilers. which means a mystic in Freeport would have to answer to, and work with, Defilers.any misstep. any action that doesn't fit with what a defiler expects you to do draws suspicion. trying to make excuses draws suspicion. that's shown in dozens of quests in freeport and even in NPC talk. it's even in the betrayal line itself. you do NOT question your superiors, or thier methods. and you do exactly as you are told..or your a traitor and turned over to the Militia/Wraithguard.a Mystic trying to live in freeport would have to use defiler methods. they'd have to behave as a defiler behaves. and not just by word, but action. and when you start torturing the spirits, bending them to your will and 'defiling' them..your not a mystic anymore, your a defiler.and by the same token, a defiler couldn't stay in Qeynos. the torturing of spirits wouldn't be tolerated. they'd be driven out, arrested, or executed for thier crimes. if they decided to try and control themselves, to seek guidance and wisdom and work with the spirits rather then running roughshod over them...they'd no longer be defilers, but Mystics.</blockquote>Ok, obviously you paid more attention to the epic lore, I just tried to get it done. In any case, your assertation that "The shamans of Freeport are Defilers" is true TODAY, but doesn't mean it can't change, just like it did for chanters. Before, the enchanters of freeport were coercers, and if you were to live in freeport as an enchantress, you had to act as a coercer. But see, that simply isn't true anymore. They simply added some Illusionist trainers to the mage tower, and voila, you can now be both. The same with templar and inquisitor. You used to have to torture your way into obedience to be a cleric in Freeport, but suddenly Templars are A-OK, even tho the other divinely blessed class, paladins, are supposedly the most vile things to ever step foot in Freeport. It makes no logical sense!

yohann koldheart

10-28-2012, 03:46 PM

there is a way already to do this, it does cost SC though.roll a mystic on nagafen on the freeport side. buy the transfer token and move it to your server.

inspire1444568

10-28-2012, 05:04 PM

The developers have done all that mystic is not overdamaged Inquisitor (i.e Anashti Sul)I do not see another... reasons =Dark Templar (and good assasin) is a rare stupidity !

zehly

10-28-2012, 06:56 PM

I think this thread should be moved to the Lore section! Lots of great goodies in here. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I liked what one of the posters said and think it sums up the best reason why certain classes can't align with the opposite faction: ".. because by necessity you would then become [the opposite class] .."

General_Info

10-29-2012, 07:49 AM

<cite>inspire1444568 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The developers have done all that mystic is not overdamaged Inquisitor (i.e Anashti Sul)I do not see another... reasons =Dark Templar (and good assasin) is a rare stupidity !</blockquote>i'd like to know your reasoning behind a good assassin being a stupid idea. both rangers and assassins kill people with stealth usualy in unfair combat conditions with the victim at a disadvantage so i dont see that as an alignment problem, they both use poisons so no morality issue there. assassin can jsut as easily kill somebody in service to their city/nation as can a ranger does jsut as much as they both can for some coin.if you still think assassins are evil through and through why dont you look at the real world people are assassinated by outlaw groups, terrorists and nations/alliances regularly.

Rainmare

10-29-2012, 08:45 AM

well Lucan's beef with Paladins goes way back to Eq1, when he used to be one...before Marr stripped him of his powers after the murder of another paladin.and your right. sometime after EQ1, when Freeport became entirely under Lucan's control, (after he drove/tricked the paladins out of North Freeport area now known as the Graveyard) the illusionists and coercers basically had a 'anything you can do I can do better' fight. it culminated in a duel that would see the losing side ousted from freeport, on top of the academy. the Coercer charmed the Illusionist, and had her/him walk off the edge of the building.however, after Opal stole Soulfire, and escaped from militia Hq and eluded an assassin using illusion, and then Tayil sneaking into the Citadel under the guise of a Lucanic Knight and getting Lucan kidnapped/stealing soulfire AGAIN....Lucan decided to allow Illusionists back in to counter any other attempts...and Opal still being alive, and a master enchanter, who's illusions are darn near impossible to see through, its in Lucan's best interests to have people that practice the art of illusion to help deal with it.Even though he's a dumb*ss for trusting the Tier'dal in the first place.but the mystic and defiler division in methods isn't like the coercer/chanter. both of them use enchantment...one just warps your perception of reality, and one warps your mind itself. example being an illusionist would make you see a naked woman jumping off a water fall which makes you chase after her and jump of a cliff into a pit of molten lava. the coercer just flat you tells your brain to do it like programing a robot.the mystics and defilers...it's like a hunter and a vegan looking at a deer. one wants to shoot it, eat it, mount the head on his wall...the other wants to observe it, feed it, pet it, and call it bambi. (this case the 'deer' being the Truespirit)

Leawyn

10-29-2012, 11:37 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>but the mystic and defiler division in methods isn't like the coercer/chanter. both of them use enchantment...one just warps your perception of reality, and one warps your mind itself. example being an illusionist would make you see a naked woman jumping off a water fall which makes you chase after her and jump of a cliff into a pit of molten lava. the coercer just flat you tells your brain to do it like programing a robot.the mystics and defilers...it's like a hunter and a vegan looking at a deer. one wants to shoot it, eat it, mount the head on his wall...the other wants to observe it, feed it, pet it, and call it bambi. (this case the 'deer' being the Truespirit)</blockquote>So now hunters are evil? Just trying to understand you're comparison. Because honestly, living in the PNW, I know alot of hunters and none are evil for going hunting. In fact, I know this one woman who does observe, feed, pet and call a deer Bambi, then will gladly hunt it and butcher it for food for the winter.Again, just because their methods are different doesn't designate who is evil and who isn't. Just because my mystic might revere the spirits doesn't mean she doesn't use them for her own evil intentions. As long as she feels its right and true, the spirits would follow her lead and do what she asked.

Oxie

10-29-2012, 12:24 PM

<cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is a way already to do this, it does cost SC though.roll a mystic on nagafen on the freeport side. buy the transfer token and move it to your server.</blockquote>So I can server hop my swashbuckler for $25 to the PvP server, betray him from Qeynos to Freeport and remain a swashbuckler when he rolls on into Freeport. I then pay another $25 to move my evil swashbuckler back to Unrest. Now my raiding swashy can do Freeport/evil quests and follow an evil god without having to exile.Because I want a good AND evil swashbuckler on my account, I'm going to have to then betray my brigand to Qeynos to turn him into a swashbuckler.As soon as I do this, SOE will "fix" this "workaround" to keep evil paladins out of Freeport and good shadowknights out of Qeynos...and the other 6 classes that are screwing up the holy PvE-based lore. (To heck with lore on PvP!!!)...and I'll have wasted my time betraying 2 toons...not to mention wasting $50 to get what I want out of my characters on an account that I've been paying $15/mo for nearly 8 years. Yet, if I played on a PvP server...this wouldn't be an issue.Talk about not being fair and balanced for people who play on PvP versus playing PvE.

Oxie

10-29-2012, 12:26 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snip wall of text </blockquote>Answer me this, Rainmare:Let's say you decided to move to the PvP server and managed to find a group of people who role played while they PvPed. You would then have to learn to role play and interact with all 25 classes being neutral...just like you would have to do if SOE allowed the last 8 classes to be neutral on the PvE servers. Or would you opt to /ignore the players who are running around as good SKs and evil paladins, just because of who and what they chose to be is now ruining your RPing life?

Rainmare

10-29-2012, 05:11 PM

myself? if I saw a paladin living in freeport or an SK living in qeynos as a member of those cities? I probably would ignore them. right now I'd ignore them becuase obviously they are from a PVP server and frankly I have yet to meet a single pvp player that moved to my sever who isn't a jack*ss of a person that I wouldn't want to spend time with in the first place.if they opened up the pvp aspect on pve...thus making all the classes neutral...yeah I'd probably still put them on ignore. I might give them the benefit of the doubt at first, but thier disregard of the lore would severly lower my tolerance for crap I might put up with from someone else.and if I moved to a PVP server, it would strictly be for alignment restricted battles. good vs evil, qeynos vs freeport. as they are supposed to be. not as they are right now where the crying Raiders got thier way rather then learn to work with what they had.

crazyeyes321

10-29-2012, 05:17 PM

While I agree that they should go ahead and free up the remaining classes to be available on either side, I do think that they should have a special area that those classes have to hide in from the main populace. Like in eq1, the city was good but go into the sewers and you find the evil class trainers.

Ulrichvon

10-29-2012, 06:38 PM

From a lore perspective aren't the two factions all teaming up to form the 'New Combine' anyway? Seems its about time these silly faction restrictions be removed.

General_Info

10-29-2012, 07:26 PM

<cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote>From a lore perspective aren't the two factions all teaming up to form the 'New Combine' anyway? Seems its about time these silly faction restrictions be removed.</blockquote>becoming part of the combine doesnt make them any less enemies/rivals joining isnt membership as long as both empires shall live. if you've been killnig each other for so long suddly declaringp eace at the top of both factinos isnt gonna erase them mutal hatred and desire to violently kill each other in acts of revenge.

Oxie

10-29-2012, 09:38 PM

<cite>General_Info wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote>From a lore perspective aren't the two factions all teaming up to form the 'New Combine' anyway? Seems its about time these silly faction restrictions be removed.</blockquote>becoming part of the combine doesnt make them any less enemies/rivals joining isnt membership as long as both empires shall live. if you've been killnig each other for so long suddly declaringp eace at the top of both factinos isnt gonna erase them mutal hatred and desire to violently kill each other in acts of revenge.</blockquote>Or look at it from another angle: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.Countries/cities that used to be enemies now get along (tolerate) each other because a new rival has shown up to try to shut them both down. Applies in real life like it does this game.I know PvP raiding had a disadvantage due to class balance, and that did need to change. Likewise, this game had restrictions early on like not being able to share a bank with characters from opposite cities. I remember having a friend log in an alt that was based in Freeport and meeting me on the docks in TS to swap out stuff that we wanted to shuffle back and forth between good and evil cities. This was back when the blackmarket sold items for a 40% broker fee, and level 50 masters were selling for 75g each.Times have changed. The game has changed. The lore has changed for PvP....make it so for PvE.

Oxie

10-29-2012, 09:47 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>myself? if I saw a paladin living in freeport or an SK living in qeynos as a member of those cities? I probably would ignore them. right now I'd ignore them becuase obviously they are from a PVP server and frankly I have yet to meet a single pvp player that moved to my sever who isn't a jack*ss of a person that I wouldn't want to spend time with in the first place.if they opened up the pvp aspect on pve...thus making all the classes neutral...yeah I'd probably still put them on ignore. I might give them the benefit of the doubt at first, but thier disregard of the lore would severly lower my tolerance for crap I might put up with from someone else.and if I moved to a PVP server, it would strictly be for alignment restricted battles. good vs evil, qeynos vs freeport. as they are supposed to be. not as they are right now where the crying Raiders got thier way rather then learn to work with what they had.</blockquote>So you'd do what I suggested...use the /ignore feature that SOE has put into place for your enjoyment and sanity. Pity /ignore also doesn't make the ignored character go "poof" on your screen like it does in channel chat and /say, /tell, etc.Honestly, I wish SOE didn't bother with breaking apart the original EQ1 classes like bards, rogues, monks, chanters, shaman, etc. Your class was defined by your race, and seeing a traditional tank class like an ogre being a wizard or a gnome monk would mess with my perception of EQ lore more than seeing a good SK or evil paladin.

Rainmare

10-30-2012, 07:31 AM

the hunter thing was more on the idea that the way a mystic operates and the way a defiler operates...those two (hunter and vegan) will never see eye to eye on how to treat the deer (Truespirt/spiritrealm)and yes, the Troll wizard and the Ogre brigand do annoy me. that ARAC thing. and yeah I do tend to ignore people that do that, mostly becuase they seem to pick the race/class combo just to make jokes on it...and usually have an equally idiotic or 'punned' name...and amusingly enough, most people that play actually seem to pick race/class combos that make sense. you atually don't often see a troll mage. or an ogre dirge or a halfing monk.As to Combine Empire...yes, all the major cities are a part of it. and they are all part of it because Kerafyrm can destroy each of them seperately. there' no doubt on that. he only MIGHT not be able to destroy them if they present a united front. and make no mistake that Lucan and Antonia would sever that tie as soon as possible. that doesn't mean Qeynos and Freeport don't hate eachother, or that Lucan wouldn't still want to raze Qeynos to the ground if he had an opportunity to do so.In fact I am fully expecting to see Lucan, the second Kerafyrm's body hits the ground, before his blood even cools, to try and strike Qeynos and dissolve the Combine in one motion. So being part of the combine isn't really a 'good and evil aren't there anymore' kinda of thing.think of the Combine in the manner of world war two. Kerafyrm is the Axis. Qeynos is the US and Freeport is Stalin's Russia. Russia and the US may have hated eachother politically/ideaologically...but they knew better then to not team up againse the Axis.and of course the second the Axis powers fell...the US and Russia were back at eachother's proverbial throats.

Oxie

10-30-2012, 02:17 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>and yes, the Troll wizard and the Ogre brigand do annoy me. that ARAC thing. and yeah I do tend to ignore people that do that, mostly becuase they seem to pick the race/class combo just to make jokes on it...and usually have an equally idiotic or 'punned' name...and amusingly enough, most people that play actually seem to pick race/class combos that make sense. you atually don't often see a troll mage. or an ogre dirge or a halfing monk.</blockquote>One of my favorite players that I knew back in the first year was a guardian gnome named Crunk Stinkstar. He had awesome hair and was a riot to be around and made this game fun. It goes beyond the characters, the races, the classes, and the lore for me. The right person behind the oddball class/race combo can manage to work his story into pure entertainment and comedy gold. Halfling monk...I think Mae* has one of those in her Hobbit Army of Evil (with a wannabe evil mystic that stares longingly at the gates of Freeport, wanting to be able to walk about the city without being bothered by the guards and to not be snubbed by the bankers and merchants.)

Leawyn

10-30-2012, 02:44 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>and yes, the Troll wizard and the Ogre brigand do annoy me. that ARAC thing. and yeah I do tend to ignore people that do that, mostly becuase they seem to pick the race/class combo just to make jokes on it...and usually have an equally idiotic or 'punned' name...and amusingly enough, most people that play actually seem to pick race/class combos that make sense. you atually don't often see a troll mage. or an ogre dirge or a halfing monk.</blockquote>Halfling monk...I think Mae* has one of those in her Hobbit Army of Evil (with a wannabe evil mystic that stares longingly at the gates of Freeport, wanting to be able to walk about the city without being bothered by the guards and to not be snubbed by the bankers and merchants.)</blockquote>I certainly do. Maekita, the evil halfling monk. My evil halfling army, led by the Evil Mystic Who Can't Live in Freeport, consists of an illusionist, troubadour, warden, brigand, necromancer, monk, beastlord, assassin and shadow knight. Out of all of those, I believe only the warden (druid), brig and assassin (rolled into rogue) were capable in EQ1... the thing is, my main in EQ1 was an enchanter, who wore the permanent illusion of a halfling, and had a froglok paladin who got to share the halfling illusion when I 2boxed. So even back then, I had a halfling enchantress and halfling paladin that I two boxed =P

Rainmare

10-31-2012, 01:38 PM

gnomes could be warriors in eq1 though as well. halflings were warriors, druids, rogues and later got to be rangers.the only monks in eq1 were humans and iksar.my only thing about halfling monks that makes the idea silly to me, is that bruisers/monks use hand to hand combat. I mean your as high as my mid calf...are your kicks really going to possibly do that much? but it's not so unreasonable or downright dumb as the Troll Wizard or the ogre brig.

Mohee

10-31-2012, 06:48 PM

I for one enjoy your informative posts Rainmare.But I wan't to be a Drakkin!

Leawyn

11-01-2012, 06:20 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>gnomes could be warriors in eq1 though as well. halflings were warriors, druids, rogues and later got to be rangers.the only monks in eq1 were humans and iksar.my only thing about halfling monks that makes the idea silly to me, is that bruisers/monks use hand to hand combat. I mean your as high as my mid calf...are your kicks really going to possibly do that much? but it's not so unreasonable or downright dumb as the Troll Wizard or the ogre brig.</blockquote>LOL! Clearly you're not a dude. Trust me, there is plenty of damage to be done below the belt =P

Oxie

11-01-2012, 06:33 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>gnomes could be warriors in eq1 though as well. halflings were warriors, druids, rogues and later got to be rangers.the only monks in eq1 were humans and iksar.my only thing about halfling monks that makes the idea silly to me, is that bruisers/monks use hand to hand combat. I mean your as high as my mid calf...are your kicks really going to possibly do that much? but it's not so unreasonable or downright dumb as the Troll Wizard or the ogre brig.</blockquote>LOL! Clearly you're not a dude. Trust me, there is plenty of damage to be done below the belt =P</blockquote>Mae* plays mean and dirty, which is my main (undisclosed until now) reason why I want to move to Freeport. Being on the same side as her is a lot less painful compared to being from an opposing city!

Rainmare

11-06-2012, 01:51 PM

heh I am a dude. but a halfling, as tall as they get, the top of there cute little heads is the middle of my calf. you can't reach that particular area without jumping at least with your foot. at which point moving my knee forward would toss you on your backside.and your fist might reach..but I'm sure my metal codpeice will be protection enough rom your pudgy hand. while I don't think yoru leather gi is going to provided equal protection from my armored foot. which literally can hit you in the face and the chest at the same time.

Oxie

11-07-2012, 04:36 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>heh I am a dude. but a halfling, as tall as they get, the top of there cute little heads is the middle of my calf. you can't reach that particular area without jumping at least with your foot. at which point moving my knee forward would toss you on your backside.and your fist might reach..but I'm sure my metal codpeice will be protection enough rom your pudgy hand. while I don't think yoru leather gi is going to provided equal protection from my armored foot. which literally can hit you in the face and the chest at the same time.</blockquote>It's hard to see a halfling brawler's attacking moves when you have jumjum pie in your face. They do not throw shurikens from a ranged attack...it's jumjum pie.

Rainmare

11-08-2012, 12:41 AM

It can't be jum jum pie. that'd be like a drug dealer trying to blind you by throwing his cocaine in your eyes. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Leawyn

11-08-2012, 02:20 AM

We're getting off topic here. I'd like to bring it back around to allowing players to pick their own alignment, independant of their class. My poor lonely Mystic, leader of the evil halfling army, cannot live where the rest of her minions live. It's a sad day.

Rainmare

11-08-2012, 02:59 AM

but there are some classes that are by thier nature forced into a particular alignment, that simply isn't an alignment that can't function in thier opposing city without adopting the methods and ideology of thier opposing half, thus no longer being said alignment and becoming the other class. Mystic is one of them.

Leawyn

11-08-2012, 04:50 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>but there are some classes that are by thier nature forced into a particular alignment, that simply isn't an alignment that can't function in thier opposing city without adopting the methods and ideology of thier opposing half, thus no longer being said alignment and becoming the other class. Mystic is one of them.</blockquote>Says you.Things change, and lore changes, and people change. Maybe not this expansion, but soon, they can and hopefully will find a way to let all classes live together, instead of arbitrarily picking 8 classes that can't.

General_Info

11-08-2012, 02:45 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Says you.Things change, and lore changes, and people change. Maybe not this expansion, but soon, they can and hopefully will find a way to let all classes live together, instead of arbitrarily picking 8 classes that can't.</blockquote>I dont see how in any way their choices have been arbitrary it's not like suddenly one dev decides to make say underdepths harder and expects the other devs to go along with it without any disscusion or debate about it.The reasons why those classes are restircted has been explained/ comparing a pally to a sk is like comparing an exicutioner to a murderer they are fundementally different one is abiding by the law and the other is pursued by the law.mystics/defilers while not as extreme as pally/sk how they treat spirits and how each city's set of acceptable behavor makes them what they are. Freeport can see the subjugation of spirits for military use as a kind of strength in the same way a master coercer can been seen as stronger in direct conflict against a master illusionist.it's just as much about the way each class' way of doing things as it is about the oppinon's/perceptions of citizens and the hierarchy of the cities.if you were a qeynosian who would you trust if you had to pick between a mystic that works with spirits in a cooprative manner of the spirit's choosing and a defiler that bends spirits to their will without regret or remorse?no different then say a jury being inclinded to trust the testomony of a police officer over an accused offender.

Leawyn

11-08-2012, 03:12 PM

<cite>General_Info wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Says you.Things change, and lore changes, and people change. Maybe not this expansion, but soon, they can and hopefully will find a way to let all classes live together, instead of arbitrarily picking 8 classes that can't.</blockquote>I dont see how in any way their choices have been arbitrary it's not like suddenly one dev decides to make say underdepths harder and expects the other devs to go along with it without any disscusion or debate about it.mystics/defilers while not as extreme as pally/sk how they treat spirits and how each city's set of acceptable behavor makes them what they are. Freeport can see the subjugation of spirits for military use as a kind of strength in the same way a master coercer can been seen as stronger in direct conflict against a master illusionist.it's just as much about the way each class' way of doing things as it is about the oppinon's/perceptions of citizens and the hierarchy of the cities.</blockquote>I say its arbitrary because they decided to make ASSASSINS good, when their job is to kill people. They get paid to do it. I get the whole "Greater good" blah blah, Antonia bending to the pressures whatever, but if you can rationalize assassins being good enough to live in Qeynos, you can rationalize anything. It would have made FAR more sense to keep the Assassin/Ranger as evil/good and make the brigand and swash neutral.What I fail to see is why defilers are SOOOO evil for manipulating the spirits, but coercers are A-OK though they can manipulate and torture REAL LIVE PEOPLE. Its inconsistencies like that that drives me bonkers.