Lowered XP for support players [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Te'ana

10-23-2012, 06:11 AM

I was at the Dev Brunch at SOE Live and thought we had finally convinced the Devs that the proposed changes to XP for groups should be reversed.Unfortunatly I hear that this troublesome change is still in effect, allbeit in a revised version. It still is not a good policy and should be changed ASAP. I don't give a flying fig about botters. I want my XP and I don't want it lowered because some folks are getting a boost from power leveling. This is my hot topic and I bet it will become everyone else's when they see the lopsided XP results the ensue.Healers will still get stiffed. So will anyone not having masssive AOEs. If we want to get our fair share of XP we will avoid grouping with anyone who is powerfull enough to one-shot a MOB. This is just plain not fair.For example, if you have a group that is fighting a host of critters and one person has massive AOEs and the others are just doing thier best to help out, the player with AOEs will get almost all the XP and others will get nearly none.I for one, will not group with anyone who can out parse me because I won't want to consistenly fall behind the folks who can blast their way through MOBs. This needs to be changed ASAP or people will stop playing with their friends who are powerfull players. Botters are just an annoyance, lowered XP because I am a support player is a MAJOR issue which will make me and many other players VERY angry.<blockquote>Hey guys. Just chiming in to address confusion on this. You will still get experience if you’re not on the hatelist. You just won’t get as much as you would have if you were able to contribute. The change makes it so you get experience to that of soloing if you are able to contribute to the battle. If not, you will still get the same amount (that of a N-sized group). So in essence, this just means for you that you are getting the chance at even more exp in situations where you’re able to help kill the mob.</blockquote>

Zergosch

10-23-2012, 06:40 AM

Seems like SoE try to make the way up to 95 as long as possible oO *thumbsdown*Few changes, everybody happy, not much work.... but, this....?

Xianthia

10-23-2012, 08:49 AM

The other thread discussing this has a response and clarification from a red name.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=523133" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=523133</a>

Te'ana

10-23-2012, 10:24 AM

The other discussion is mostly concerned about mentoring issues. I am worried about normal grouping. Withthis change some classes will end up getting less XP than others because they will lose out on the "bonus" XP for the encounter. That means the various classes will level at different rates while killing the same set of critters. That may not be a problem in a single encounter, but it will add up and cause it to be much more difficult for support classes to level up. That is not fair.Consider a group trying to level up at the same time. If they each play a complementary character they will level at different rates and soon be an unbalanced group. This is bad for grouping and bad for support classes in general.The whole reason for this change is because so many people were complaining about botters and power leveling unattended toons. To me this is an overreaction to a minor issue that will cause a major negative impact on many players.

Gaarysal

10-23-2012, 10:28 AM

<cite>Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was at the Dev Brunch at SOE Live and thought we had finally convinced the Devs that the proposed changes to XP for groups should be reversed.Unfortunatly I hear that this troublesome change is still in effect, allbeit in a revised version. It still is not a good policy and should be changed ASAP. I don't give a flying fig about botters. I want my XP and I don't want it lowered because some folks are getting a boost from power leveling. This is my hot topic and I bet it will become everyone else's when they see the lopsided XP results the ensue.Healers will still get stiffed. So will anyone not having masssive AOEs. If we want to get our fair share of XP we will avoid grouping with anyone who is powerfull enough to one-shot a MOB. This is just plain not fair.For example, if you have a group that is fighting a host of critters and one person has massive AOEs and the others are just doing thier best to help out, the player with AOEs will get almost all the XP and others will get nearly none.I for one, will not group with anyone who can out parse me because I won't want to consistenly fall behind the folks who can blast their way through MOBs. This needs to be changed ASAP or people will stop playing with their friends who are powerfull players. Botters are just an annoyance, lowered XP because I am a support player is a MAJOR issue which will make me and many other players VERY angry.<blockquote>Hey guys. Just chiming in to address confusion on this. You will still get experience if you’re not on the hatelist. You just won’t get as much as you would have if you were able to contribute. The change makes it so you get experience to that of soloing if you are able to contribute to the battle. If not, you will still get the same amount (that of a N-sized group). So in essence, this just means for you that you are getting the chance at even more exp in situations where you’re able to help kill the mob.</blockquote></blockquote>While I agree this whole thing is just stupid, remove or keep xp penalty accross the board not for a certain set of conditions, being on the hatelist does not mean doing damage. As a healer if you were to cast 1 heal on a tank with 100 mobs on him, you'd then be on the hatelist with all 100 of those mobs. Healers make out the best in this next to tanks. Maybe you have a different toon other than what is in your sig that falls under the support category but even for a support class it is fairly simple and actually easier to get on the hatelist than even some dps. As a support class (bard/chanter) you can simply cast a buff on the group or the tank and you will be on the hate list for every mob that has aggroed the tank.

Grumble69

10-23-2012, 11:59 AM

As someone who PL'd a number of alts, I can get around their changes. As someone who has participated in a number of PQs and gotten screwed over on support classes, I cringe at what they'll try to implement. It should be as simple as casting a heal or a buff or an ae. But it never works out that way. There's always something convoluted in their logic and it never works out cleanly. There's a miss / resist. The heal comes just a hair early / late before the group encounter is mowed down. Whatever.To be honest, I'd rather them leave the "group penalty" as it currently stands than having to deal with their new "AFK / support penalty". At least the group penalty screws everyone over equally and you can level at the same pace. They must have tinkered with that PQ AFK code for a couple of months (at least). And they never did get it right. The content just evolved past it and the problems became moot.

feldon30

10-23-2012, 12:30 PM

I am totally absolutely and completely boggled at people who are against the overall idea of changing Group XP.Right now, from level 1-90, most people go off in their own instances and grind XP until their eyes bleed. Why? Because grouping up cuts your XP into little pieces. And if I didn't already know that, I could have learned that from this thread:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=521958">Please stop putting me in situations to upset my friends</a> EQ2 has a ton of content. But most people aren't playing 1-89 content as a group, because the XP split makes it a losing proposition. So instead people grind Blackburrow, or Anathema, or Chelsith, or KoS zones with as few people as possible, typically AFK following a raid-geared Shadowknight. This is extremely unhealthy for the game.The idea SHOULD be that 3, 4, or more players should be able to group up without a stacked/geared member "pulling" the group along doing 90% of the effort. I want to be able to group with people of all skill levels and gear levels and, even if we are going a bit slower than the typical Powerlevel "pull entire zones and burn them down" and actually reading quest text or checking to see where our quests update, we still come out of it with plenty of XP.Right now on double XP weekends, it's "ok friends/guildies, I'll see you on Monday" and then off to grind in soloable instances. That is just killing the game and should have been stopped years ago.No matter what SOE does, there will always be people who figure out the fastest way to Powerlevel. But making XP crawl at a snail's pace for everyone else to try to hamstring that 1% of 1% who have a raid geared SK and 12 boxing and all that jazz just makes no sense. Punishing everyone for the actions of a few people is dumb.If I am reading Lateana and others correctly, you're saying that if you group with a ridiculously overpowered character who is mentoring you, you won't get as much XP as if you were at the same type of skill and gear level. Due to 3 item revamps, the introduction of AAs, and countless nerfs to overland and dungeon content in the 1-70 range, I think the solution is pretty obvious -- instead of being dragged along by super high level characters, "group with someone your own age".How is anyone supposed to learn this game if they aren't contributing to the battle and actually playing their class while they level?

Ulrichvon

10-23-2012, 01:25 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How is anyone supposed to learn this game if they aren't contributing to the battle and actually playing their class while they level?</blockquote>They'll learn as they take on ecounters that are non-trivial. However 99% of the encounters used to level up are 100% trivial and no one learns anything on them.

Grumble69

10-23-2012, 01:56 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am totally absolutely and completely boggled at people who are against the overall idea of changing Group XP.</blockquote>I'm not against group xp. I am against their attempt to tie xp to participation. ...and in principle I'm fine with that idea. The problem is that they tried to do something very similar with PQ'rs and ended up making the cure worse than the disease.If they want to remove the grouping penalty--fine. Just don't tie any stinking conditions to it. Will folks still PL? Probably. But you'll likely have 10x more happy people grouping together. Don't risk screwing that up by putting in some unneeded code that cuts into support / single target classes. If someone is coasting in the group, let the group deal with it.

Grumble69

10-23-2012, 02:00 PM

<cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How is anyone supposed to learn this game if they aren't contributing to the battle and actually playing their class while they level?</blockquote>They'll learn as they take on ecounters that are non-trivial. However 99% of the encounters used to level up are 100% trivial and no one learns anything on them.</blockquote>I agree that folks won't learn much at all pre-90 where the emphasis is on the grind. However, the socialization is a good byproduct. Meet new folks. Maybe join a like minded guild. Just getting in the habit of doing stuff together.

Mermut

10-23-2012, 02:02 PM

I'm with Feldon here.. a summary of the changes:For groups where everybody is contributing, xp goes up across the board for everybody.For groups where one toon is doing all the work and the rest are just along for the ride, xp works as it has always worked.Nobody loses anything, 'real' groups gain. How is this bad?

crazyeyes321

10-23-2012, 02:38 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm with Feldon here.. a summary of the changes:For groups where everybody is contributing, xp goes up across the board for everybody.For groups where one toon is doing all the work and the rest are just along for the ride, xp works as it has always worked.Nobody loses anything, 'real' groups gain. How is this bad?</blockquote>Again, the issue people are representing is when a tank pulls an encounter or several encounters via body pull, and then does an aoe that mows down all mobs with his opening attack before others get a chance to attack, buff, heal, etc since that would draw aggro from the body pull to them.The proposed change would reduce a persons exp in that case, even if they were playing with others and at the computer. It has nothing to do with them asking for a free ride and everything to do with the way the game is played now (ie, pull as many as you can bodily, then throw out aoes).Mentoring or not is also not the issue, as many classes can one shot many mobs in lower tiers(which is where the exp really matters anyways, since low level populations are low).Personally, I agree, just get rid of the penalty. Afkers, multiboxers, etc will level up faster, so what? The game has moved away from the journey and now everything is at the endgame. Free 280 AA tokens further prove this.

Weebee

10-23-2012, 02:47 PM

What I don't understand, and never have, is WHY is there a penalty for a full group anyways?Grouping is supposed to be encouraged especially for classes that have a hard time soloing and for new players.I am totally against the mercs, however, being someone that has to solo, I was put in a position of use a merc or don't play.As for the AFK penalty thing, I PL some of my own toons. I don't PL other people. I feel a penalty should be in place because way way too many new players are being power leveled and are clueless about their game, their character, how to play it, how to group, etc.

deadcrickets2

10-23-2012, 03:27 PM

<cite>crazyeyes321 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm with Feldon here.. a summary of the changes:For groups where everybody is contributing, xp goes up across the board for everybody.For groups where one toon is doing all the work and the rest are just along for the ride, xp works as it has always worked.Nobody loses anything, 'real' groups gain. How is this bad?</blockquote>Again, the issue people are representing is when a tank pulls an encounter or several encounters via body pull, and then does an aoe that mows down all mobs with his opening attack before others get a chance to attack, buff, heal, etc since that would draw aggro from the body pull to them.</blockquote>Your XP will not change from what it is now. What you are describing is someone who is mentored or chrono'd down for a PL. There are ways to get on that hate list even in a PL situation. Most classes have a reactive buff which can be placed on the PL tank. All the tank has to do is pull the mobs, wait a second for the mobs to all smack him and then kill them. Issue with hate list solved.The changes being made are what I argued for a while back and got attacked for. They are meant to fix the perception among new players that there are no groups and that everything is at "end-game". It also solves a very real issue every double XP event where new players are fairly much never going to be able to enjoy dungeons (and sometimes open zones) with others due to a PL tank keeping it cleared. It also solves the issue where players are penalized for playing the game as it was originally intended; as a group. These were common complaint I kept seeing from people on other gaming sites and forums about the game.If you wish we could go back to the very early days of the game where there was no chronomancer and often a high level character would help attack from outside the group.

Mohee

10-23-2012, 03:29 PM

This change is supposed to encourage people at the lower levels to group?HAH!I highly doubt it...

Domyr Farseeker

10-23-2012, 03:55 PM

The problem I see with this "fix" is that it promotes poor group habits and adds another level of unfun mechanics to combat.I can see from reading the posts on this forum that there's some confusion amongst even veteran players about what actions actually place you on the encounter's hate list. DPS and heals are easy, but what about buffs? What about healing pets or procs? Cures? I've been playing since release and I'm not sure I could give you a definitive list of abilities that put me on the hate list. I'm not sure I want to know...why is that fun?It's easy to say "Keep playing the way you are, and nothing changes. It doesn't impact you at all. Just a reward for people playing the right way". But we all know that as soon as the XP bonus for participation goes into effect, everyone will expect/want/try to get that bonus on every encounter. It stops being a "bonus" and effectively becomes a "penalty" when they don't get it.If you take the example given in the other thread...a duo taking on a 4-mob encounter, I'd get 1040 XP if I don't get on the hate list (260*4). If I get on the hate list I'd get 2800 XP (500*4+800). I assume the difference gets larger as the size of your group goes up (XP per mob would be less than 260). Add pots, vereran bonuses, double XP weekends into the mix and it gets even larger. This isn't an insignificant amount of bonus XP that people are going to just scoff at.The 500xp per mob vs 260xp per mob was an example given by a dev. Does anybody know the formula behind that? What's the xp per mob if I'm in a group of 6? Then again, why do I want to know? How does that add anything entertaining to the game? The change as stated, doesn't make me want to group more. It makes me want to group less. It encourages exactly the kind of behavior that makes me despise PUGs.What if I'm body pulling a 4-mob encounter from around the doorway of a room full of social mobs and ask my healer(s) to turn off reactives and dps'er until I get the encounter clear before they open up with nukes and heals? They know the encounter is going to melt as soon as the aoe melee'rs open up. What incentive do they have to follow instructions? If they don't want an xp penalty, they need to be on the list before the encounter dies. Most pulls aren't single encounters. You run into the room and grab as many mobs as the tank can effectively control. The incentive in those scenarios will be to try to "touch" everything in the room before stuff starts dying. To get on the hate list. Of every encounter. To get MY XP. Who cares if the tank can't control it - he should learn to taunt.I'm not arguing that the current system doesn't need to be changed, but I'm not sure which issue(s) this is intended to address. If there was an SOE stated intent, I must have missed it. I've seen lots of player speculation that it was to encourage grouping or discourage PLing or nerf botters. I don't like it as a fix for any of those things. If it's broke, fix it right...don't just break a different way. Why not just drop the group xp penalty, let us go out and play the game, kill stuff and have fun.

deadcrickets2

10-23-2012, 03:58 PM

<cite>Mohee wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change is supposed to encourage people at the lower levels to group?HAH!I highly doubt it...</blockquote>Let's see what the advantages are for grouping with the changes:<ol><li>Higher XP</li><li>Faster XP</li><li>Can complete more quests</li><li>More social interaction</li><li>Dungeon Finder bonus loot (if using Dungeon Finder)</li><li>More groups due to less people having to depend on PL</li><li>More players as players will stick around in the game</li><li>More players who know how to play their character when they reach max level which helps create...</li><li>Better starter raiders</li></ol>It's now on the players. They have every incentive to be in a group going forward.

Ulrichvon

10-23-2012, 03:59 PM

<cite>deadcrickets2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's now on the players. They have every incentive to be in a group going forward.</blockquote>If only I had reason to invite them if I'm boxing.

deadcrickets2

10-23-2012, 04:06 PM

For boxers: Just unicast the commands using Isboxer or another program. It's within the rules as you already know. And you still have the ability to place those reactive buffs on your tank for your boxed group. I've seen boxed groups where all members are casting so I know it's fully possible.

Grumble69

10-23-2012, 04:29 PM

<cite>Domyr Farseeker wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem I see with this "fix" is that it promotes poor group habits and adds another level of unfun mechanics to combat.</blockquote>Exactly. Take brigs as an example. They've got 1 AE on a 30sec timer. 1) It promotes bad habits. Brigs are pretty much single target class and now this CA becomes paramount to their class. 2) And being on a 30sec timer, they're going to be penalized as slackers for all the kills in between.Assassins are kind of in the same boat. They've got a little more in the AE department, but it's going to be a bit tricky pulling that off at lower levels. Whatever "skill" they develop from that doesn't really make them better at their class. Rather, they're focusing on maximizing xp over dps which is not a good group habit.I'm sure there's other classes like that.

deadcrickets2

10-23-2012, 04:39 PM

<cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Domyr Farseeker wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem I see with this "fix" is that it promotes poor group habits and adds another level of unfun mechanics to combat.</blockquote>Exactly. Take brigs as an example. They've got 1 AE on a 30sec timer. 1) It promotes bad habits. Brigs are pretty much single target class and now this CA becomes paramount to their class. 2) And being on a 30sec timer, they're going to be penalized as slackers for all the kills in between.Assassins are kind of in the same boat. They've got a little more in the AE department, but it's going to be a bit tricky pulling that off at lower levels. Whatever "skill" they develop from that doesn't really make them better at their class. Rather, they're focusing on maximizing xp over dps which is not a good group habit.I'm sure there's other classes like that.</blockquote>There are way more than that one combat art available for the two classes. And it seems like too many of you are too focused on the PL aspect of this. Forget approaching this from a PL standpoint. It's dead, Jim. Approach it from the aspect of new players and those who are actually grouping and you'll see nothing but positive. Even for powerleveling it only requires minor changes to how it's done. Seriously, it does. I've played virtually every class in the game (except beastlord which I despise with a passion).Even with the changes there are NO CHANGES when it comes to XP for you if you are being powerleveled. Period. Crying over the lack of extra XP for NOT CONTRIBUTING when in a group won't get sympathy from me. Sorry, it won't.

Terrogaunt

10-23-2012, 04:44 PM

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=523293">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=523293</a>

Broomehilda

10-23-2012, 05:01 PM

One can hope

V1per

10-23-2012, 05:14 PM

<cite>Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was at the Dev Brunch at SOE Live and thought we had finally convinced the Devs that the proposed changes to XP for groups should be reversed.Unfortunatly I hear that this troublesome change is still in effect, allbeit in a revised version. It still is not a good policy and should be changed ASAP. I don't give a flying fig about botters. I want my XP and I don't want it lowered because some folks are getting a boost from power leveling. This is my hot topic and I bet it will become everyone else's when they see the lopsided XP results the ensue.Healers will still get stiffed. So will anyone not having masssive AOEs. If we want to get our fair share of XP we will avoid grouping with anyone who is powerfull enough to one-shot a MOB. This is just plain not fair.For example, if you have a group that is fighting a host of critters and one person has massive AOEs and the others are just doing thier best to help out, the player with AOEs will get almost all the XP and others will get nearly none.I for one, will not group with anyone who can out parse me because I won't want to consistenly fall behind the folks who can blast their way through MOBs. This needs to be changed ASAP or people will stop playing with their friends who are powerfull players. Botters are just an annoyance, lowered XP because I am a support player is a MAJOR issue which will make me and many other players VERY angry.<blockquote>Hey guys. Just chiming in to address confusion on this. You will still get experience if you’re not on the hatelist. You just won’t get as much as you would have if you were able to contribute. The change makes it so you get experience to that of soloing if you are able to contribute to the battle. If not, you will still get the same amount (that of a N-sized group). So in essence, this just means for you that you are getting the chance at even more exp in situations where you’re able to help kill the mob.</blockquote></blockquote>It's not lowered xp for support players, its no XP for afk chars who are being boxed (power leveled) through the content....as it should be....

Regolas

10-23-2012, 05:53 PM

Any level appropriate group will not one shot using a tanks AE attack any mob unless it's a triple down arrow mob. I think some people have forgotten what it's like to group without an mentored 92. For level appropriate groups, everyone should be able to get on the hate list.

Grumble69

10-23-2012, 06:13 PM

<cite>deadcrickets2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are way more than that one combat art available for the two classes. And it seems like too many of you are too focused on the PL aspect of this. Forget approaching this from a PL standpoint. It's dead, Jim. Approach it from the aspect of new players and those who are actually grouping and you'll see nothing but positive. Even for powerleveling it only requires minor changes to how it's done. Seriously, it does. I've played virtually every class in the game (except beastlord which I despise with a passion).Even with the changes there are NO CHANGES when it comes to XP for you if you are being powerleveled. Period. Crying over the lack of extra XP for NOT CONTRIBUTING when in a group won't get sympathy from me. Sorry, it won't.</blockquote>Yeah, and those other CAs are single targets. We don't have to be talking about PL'n. We can be talking about any ol' dungeon crawl. And you don't have to be pulling whole rooms either. Let's say there are 3 mobs on a pull, the brig dispatches 1, the SK and warlock hit the other 3. Are you saying that it's good game mechanics that the brig gets full credit on one kill but only partial on the other 2? That's just not right in my book.

Finora

10-23-2012, 08:31 PM

<cite>Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Healers will still get stiffed. So will anyone not having masssive AOEs. If we want to get our fair share of XP we will avoid grouping with anyone who is powerfull enough to one-shot a MOB. This is just plain not fair.</blockquote>I can most definately assure you healers are on the hate list. Pretty much anyone actively doing anything is going to be on the mobs' hate list.Heck, as a mystic it is my experience that I have to do almost nothing to have mobs come charging me or my pet.All it looks like the change is going to do is make xp faster for those who actually do something in a group rather than just standing around out of aggro range doing diddly squat.

Domyr Farseeker

10-23-2012, 09:08 PM

I'm not focused on PLing or any other style. I'm certainly not complaining about the added XP or looking for sympathy from anybody. Getting rid of the group xp penalty is long overdue in my opinion.This change does nothing to effect my play style at all. I PL for fast XP, and don't see anything in the details of this change that will deter me from doing so. I have an army of alts that I sometimes multi-box (GASP!! OH NOES!! He's a botter!!). Again, nothing in this change that will deter me me from that. I group for fun with friends, never ever PUG, and nothing in this change is going make a difference. If anything, I'm LESS likely to invite someone to my PLing duo while wiping a zone, just so I don't have to listen to them whine about not getting their XP bonus on that last pull.I'm concerned about adding a combat mechanic (which was tried before and failed) that doesn't seem to address any real issue. It just complicates the combat mechanics. They added three combat checks (mentored, hate list, green mob) just to determine whether to apply the encounter bonus or not. Maybe there's a different issue that SOE thinks this mechanic addresses, but certainly none of player expressed issues I've seen posted. I PL'd, boxed and avoided PUG's before the change, and apparently will continue to do so after the change. Personally, I don't want my group deciding which buff/heal/ability to cast based on whether they get xp for it. I don't want an over aggressive scout aggroing everything in the room just to be sure he gets on the list before the necro nukes. I don't want the cleric putting up his reactives on a body pull just so he can get a heal in before my AOEs wipe the encounter. I want my group to focus on good group mechanics and let the xp flow evenly, fairly and naturally.I'm not sure exactly which "reactive buffs" you're referring to, but I did a little test of my own. I took my dirge and coercer out with my SK to kill some heroic mobs. They had their normal maintained buffs up on the tank. The tank spanked the mobs a few times on autoattack until I saw procs registering in ACT, then FD'd. Not once did the mobs turn on the coercer or dirge on the FD. They didn't register anything in ACT, no damage, no hate gain. The only time I was able to get the mob's attention was to actually cast something on the mob.I'm sure there are buffs on some classes that reactively and passively generate hate, but none that I could find on those two utility toons. I don't think it's going to be as simply for some classes/players as you're implying. Some folks are going to have to change the way they play their toon...and not for the group's benefit...for XP.We're leveling up a 6-man group without mentoring right now. Mobs die FAST in level appropriate zones. Blue and White mobs are absolutely one-shotable. Yellow mobs don't have to be one-shot for this to be an issue. A critical bow shot with multi-attack followed by a critical necro nuke and a handful of procs...the encounter is mush before they get close enough to the tank to hit him. Where's the XP for my healers?If the xp difference was minor between those on the list and those not on the list, this would mostly be a non issue. But the difference is large enough to matter whether people get the bonuses or not.

Regolas

10-23-2012, 11:05 PM

A buff that's always on should not automatically put you on the hate list. But if you cast any beneficial spell on the tank when the tank has aggro you will go on the hate list, just like if you nuked or melee attacked. Some buffs will put you on the hate list, like the warden spores spell. Many a time when I was boxing my zerker and warden would I start running round a zone to collect mobs only for half of them to peel off my zerker and run straight at the warden, splatting him. I don't know if utility classes have reactive buffs but if they don't, a quick power transfer or similar while the tank is running back to the group would do the job, if they're not going to contribute any dps, which I think is wrong but hey.

deadcrickets2

10-23-2012, 11:43 PM

<cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>deadcrickets2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are way more than that one combat art available for the two classes. And it seems like too many of you are too focused on the PL aspect of this. Forget approaching this from a PL standpoint. It's dead, Jim. Approach it from the aspect of new players and those who are actually grouping and you'll see nothing but positive. Even for powerleveling it only requires minor changes to how it's done. Seriously, it does. I've played virtually every class in the game (except beastlord which I despise with a passion).Even with the changes there are NO CHANGES when it comes to XP for you if you are being powerleveled. Period. Crying over the lack of extra XP for NOT CONTRIBUTING when in a group won't get sympathy from me. Sorry, it won't.</blockquote>Yeah, and those other CAs are single targets. We don't have to be talking about PL'n. We can be talking about any ol' dungeon crawl. And you don't have to be pulling whole rooms either. Let's say there are 3 mobs on a pull, the brig dispatches 1, the SK and warlock hit the other 3. Are you saying that it's good game mechanics that the brig gets full credit on one kill but only partial on the other 2? That's just not right in my book.</blockquote>Please enlighten us as to what dungeons at the high level or even the low level where a level appropriate group would be able to one shot ^^^ heroics. Won't happen. The ONLY situation that happens is when you have a PL occurring. This change is NOT going to affect that situation either as the GM already explained.

Domyr Farseeker

10-24-2012, 01:54 AM

Who said anything about high level? I said we're leveling up a 6-man group. Currently mid levels. No mentoring. One shots definitely happen so save your exaggerations about it being impossible. Probably not in a PUG, but happens in my guild group. I was originally responding to the comment that no level appropriate group can one-shot any mob unless it's a triple down arrow. Re-reading that post it actually stated that a tank AOE attack can't one-shot a mob. That admittedly isn't very common, but I have one shotted no arrow grouped mobs on my SK. Level appropriate, not mentoring. Happens.Triple up heroics die on the pull all the time before they reach the tank. It doesn't take a one-shot. A single round from a few of the quick hitters can kill a mob before the healers, utilities or slow casters get on the list. Level appropriate. Not mentored. I'm not talking about current upper tier zones...I'm talking about leveling up toons through older content where people are xp grinding and wanting to find groups.As far as the buff spells I tested, other than the maintained procs, I also tried my dirge's short-term damage proc, the coercer hate gain/reducers and a power transfers. The mobs ignored the dirge and coercer. When I get some more time, I'll test a few of my other alts. So far, I've been a little surprised by some abilities that I just assumed would have got me on list, but didn't.Are you seriously trying to argue that some classes/players aren't going to change their tactics on a pull to ensure they're on the list? You really think it's a good thing that they're thinking about generating hate before they make sure the encounter(s) are controlled or their group beneficial buffs are up? Is it somehow a good thing that some classes are ensured of getting the xp bonus on every single pull by just doing their jobs (tank, dps) while other classes might miss out if their doing something beneficial to group but don't happen to make the list? Fine, you group with those toons after they have 95 levels of me-first habits drilled into them. I have no intention to.The only people that seem to be pleased with the hate-list checks are those who seem to me more interested in how other people are playing the game than playing themselves and have a good time. Why does anybody give a ratonga's toenail if somebody else drags along their 10th alt to grind them through content they've lived through 9 times already and gets xp for it? This somehow gives those people a warm fuzzy feeling that SOE is finally doing something about the powerlevelers and (gasp) multiboxers. They'll finally be forced to group with me! Yay! AAA+++ SOE! Enjoy the warm fuzzy while you can, but as a powerleveler and boxer myself, it doesn't change a thing for me.

Domyr Farseeker

10-24-2012, 02:45 AM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>A buff that's always on should not automatically put you on the hate list. But if you cast any beneficial spell on the tank when the tank has aggro you will go on the hate list, just like if you nuked or melee attacked. Some buffs will put you on the hate list, like the warden spores spell. Many a time when I was boxing my zerker and warden would I start running round a zone to collect mobs only for half of them to peel off my zerker and run straight at the warden, splatting him. I don't know if utility classes have reactive buffs but if they don't, a quick power transfer or similar while the tank is running back to the group would do the job, if they're not going to contribute any dps, which I think is wrong but hey.</blockquote>Thanks, Regolas. I'm seriously not trying trying to pick a fight. Just curious. I responded to this in my previous post, but it kind of gets lost in the one-shotting bs.I did try a few temporary buffs after the pull that I expected to generate some hate. I was surprised when they didn't. The mobs ignored the other toons after I FD'd the SK. Maybe FD'ing isn't an accurate way to determine whether I made the list. Maybe the power tranfers didn't generate hate because the tank was just autoattacking...hadn't used up any power to refill. Just casting the spell on the tank didn't seem to do anything.I didn't have a lot of time, so this was obviously not a very thorough test. I got curious after reading about the changes and dragged a couple utility toons out to a dungeon to try a couple things.I have a bunch of toons across pretty much all tiers. The ones I play frequently, I've learned which abilities generate enough hate that I need to careful with them. I've never had to pay attention to which abilities generate any hate.I hate to adopt the attitude that if your not dps'ing you're not contributing. I'm leveling two friends slowly through the older content and they're learning their first toons. I don't like teaching to nuke on the pull. I've been trying to help them learn the value of buffs, letting the tank manage the pull, etc. This mechanic just seemes to re-inforce the 1-2-3-NukeEm mentality that drove me away from pickup groups.