pre-made only vs premade?

[Xephier]

<p>Today I entered a group for klak anon, and it started with me(a 90 ranger) and a lvl 91 ranger, at the last second a 92 wizard joined the group, when we dropped down we were greeted by a premade group of SK, illy,defiler,warden,ranger.</p><p>I don't care how skilled you are, there is no winning with a group settup that bad vs a near perfect premade group. That's like expecting to win a game of poker with a crap hand when the other guy has 4 aces, aint happening.</p><p>This would be easily fixed by only allowing pre-made groups to fight other pre-made groups, and if that means they have to wait longer, so be it. The alternative is to feed them a steady stream of potentially crap settups for them to tool their way through while the people on those teams get to die repeatedly.</p><p>I'm not saying that it's imposible to win vs a premade group, it's not, but given the potential settup listed above, I just think that the people who arent able to make a pre-made for whatver reason(or just don't want to) should have a better option than to be lead like lambs to the slaughter.</p><p>Edit: not sure if it's just the pre-mades, got 3 crap settups in a row, fighting diff people. The matching system in this is purely idiotic, other team gets a defiler and a warden, our team gets no heals at all. I got the relic off the bat but died cuz the relic killed me, course we couldnt get it back after that cuz we couldnt kill the other team with 2 solid healers.</p><p>It'd be REALLY nice if SOE would fix the matching system already, sadly they won't, or they would have done it after the first 1000 posts bi*ching about it.</p>

[Mattax]

<p>What do you have against making your own group?</p><p>Ever heard of effort vs reward?</p><p>Those who make the effort to form effective groups should reap the reward.</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p>It does match premades together whenever possible. </p><p>Also, not every premade is stacked, some are just us playing with our buds.</p>

[convict]

<p>had this whine going on last night, got on with a few guildies and did some bg's, only 1 of us has any pieces of the 92 gear, and people were complaining we were a pre-made and couldnt play solo.. LOL, uh, because our friends were on, we played with them. I guess we shouldnt group with friends in an mmo because the other team might lose and run to the forums.</p><p>This whole bg forum has turned into a forum for crying about something.</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>had this whine going on last night, got on with a few guildies and did some bg's, only 1 of us has any pieces of the 92 gear, and people were complaining we were a pre-made and couldnt play solo.. LOL, uh, because our friends were on, we played with them. I guess we shouldnt group with friends in an mmo because the other team might lose and run to the forums.</p><p>This whole bg forum has turned into a forum for crying about something.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, we get this alot, someone crying about us doing premade with friends.  Its sad when often these premades consist of blue's that have never done pvp before.</p>

[Neonblue]

<p>The title of this post should be, "Level 90s Find Ganak hard to Win".  Since they bring down the whole group, and its harder to carry a bad player in Ganak then in smugglers.</p>

[Xephier]

<p>Eh, no the title should be "BG matchmaking still Fkin sucks"  hell I'll take a lvl 90 healer over no healer, and tbh pre-made or not, it should never set a group with no healers vs a group with 2 healers, it should autoballance that crap and move one of those healers to the group without a healer.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Xephier@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, no the title should be "BG matchmaking still Fkin sucks"  hell I'll take a lvl 90 healer over no healer, and tbh pre-made or not, it should never set a group with no healers vs a group with 2 healers, it should autoballance that crap and move one of those healers to the group without a healer.</p></blockquote><p>I have played a share of BGs (back when BGs were actually popular, so quite a while back now). And having done a solid mixture of BGing in guild premades, and BGing as a solo, I can confidently state : I find playing in a premades is the most boring, and uninspiring thing for gameplay in BGs. Both being a premade against PUGs, and being in a PUG against premades. Outside of rare circumstances, the removal of competitive gameplay, and thus removal of a sense of accomplishment, makes BGs feel hollow.Sure, BGing with premades brings the tokens in faster. But I am not among the crowd of people, who take unmeasurable amounts of pleasure in being a part of a premade, that smashes random mix-matched pugs, over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. I would rather watch paint dry. At least watching paint dry does not leave me feeling like I sold my honor, in exchange for a few BG tokens. This is why I prefer to queue solo.Anyway... I do not believe EQ2 has the BG population to support enforcing premade vs premade. So while I agree with you on principle, I do not agree in terms of practicality. Match making issues would still occur, even if premades were removed from the equation.</p>

[convict]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xephier@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, no the title should be "BG matchmaking still Fkin sucks"  hell I'll take a lvl 90 healer over no healer, and tbh pre-made or not, it should never set a group with no healers vs a group with 2 healers, it should autoballance that crap and move one of those healers to the group without a healer.</p></blockquote><p>I have played a share of BGs (back when BGs were actually popular, so quite a while back now). And having done a solid mixture of BGing in guild premades, and BGing as a solo, I can confidently state : I find playing in a premades is the most boring, and uninspiring thing for gameplay in BGs. Both being a premade against PUGs, and being in a PUG against premades. Outside of rare circumstances, the removal of competitive gameplay, and thus removal of a sense of accomplishment, makes BGs feel hollow.Sure, BGing with premades brings the tokens in faster. But I am not among the crowd of people, who take unmeasurable amounts of pleasure in being a part of a premade, that smashes random mix-matched pugs, over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. I would rather watch paint dry. At least watching paint dry does not leave me feeling like I sold my honor, in exchange for a few BG tokens. This is why I prefer to queue solo.Anyway... I do not believe EQ2 has the BG population to support enforcing premade vs premade. So while I agree with you on principle, I do not agree in terms of practicality. Match making issues would still occur, even if premades were removed from the equation.</p></blockquote><p>Just heard some more whine about this today. I was playing BG's with my daughter and my brother. We got called wuss's because we were pre-made, <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />. I guess when friends are online, we should say, sorry man, I can't group with you in an MMO that has GUILDS because that's not the honorable thing to do <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />, and some people WILL get mad because they lose.</p>

[Xephier]

<p>I think people miss the point much, I said pre-made vs pre-made, not NO pre-made. just make it fair is all, and a matchmaking system implemented would be nice, as clearly it's just toss random classes in 2 groups, wait 60 seconds and GO! This randomized system in which luck wins over skill is just pathetic imo.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>convict wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xephier@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Eh, no the title should be "BG matchmaking still Fkin sucks"  hell I'll take a lvl 90 healer over no healer, and tbh pre-made or not, it should never set a group with no healers vs a group with 2 healers, it should autoballance that crap and move one of those healers to the group without a healer.</p></blockquote><p>I have played a share of BGs (back when BGs were actually popular, so quite a while back now). And having done a solid mixture of BGing in guild premades, and BGing as a solo, I can confidently state : I find playing in a premades is the most boring, and uninspiring thing for gameplay in BGs. Both being a premade against PUGs, and being in a PUG against premades. Outside of rare circumstances, the removal of competitive gameplay, and thus removal of a sense of accomplishment, makes BGs feel hollow.Sure, BGing with premades brings the tokens in faster. But I am not among the crowd of people, who take unmeasurable amounts of pleasure in being a part of a premade, that smashes random mix-matched pugs, over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. I would rather watch paint dry. At least watching paint dry does not leave me feeling like I sold my honor, in exchange for a few BG tokens. This is why I prefer to queue solo.Anyway... I do not believe EQ2 has the BG population to support enforcing premade vs premade. So while I agree with you on principle, I do not agree in terms of practicality. Match making issues would still occur, even if premades were removed from the equation.</p></blockquote><p>Just heard some more whine about this today. I was playing BG's with my daughter and my brother. We got called wuss's because we were pre-made, <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />. I guess when friends are online, we should say, sorry man, I can't group with you in an MMO that has GUILDS because that's not the honorable thing to do <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />, and some people WILL get mad because they lose.</p></blockquote><p>As you quoted my post, I will assume you are replying to me.  With such, I will suggest you attempt reading my post again. Based on the content of your reply, it seems you have "misunderstood" the context in which I was discussing honor.Hint: It was in the very same paragraph describing people who take vast amounts of pleasure, from being in premades that smash PUGs.Do you consider people getting their thrills, by being in a premade and aspiring to smash PUGs, to be honorable gameplay? If so, I am proud to say my gaming standards are vastly different to your own. When I am in a premade that smashes a mix-matched PUG, not only do I find it boring, I also make no no claim of it being an honorable victory, nor do I gain any sense of accomplishment.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>3 dps can clear a premade with 2 healers. The dps players just have to be good.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>3 dps can clear a premade with 2 healers. The dps players just have to be good.</p></blockquote><p>"The dps players just have to be good", which means they are in the minority.So while your statement is true, the reality is it will not be a frequent event in pure PUGs. Normally, if I see 3 good DPSers in the same team for Gears, they are a part of a premade. Not saying I have never seen a PUG in Gears get a nicely stacked group, but I am saying it is far from common.</p>

[Elfin Hoi Man]

<p>I don't understand. If they (pre-made) bring their friends to the fight why can't you do the same?</p><p>An anecdote for you...</p><p>Although this relates to open world pvp I believe it's still relevant. I was playing with friends and jumped a well known ranger, he made a run for an instance but was stopped and ganked.</p><p>No more than five minutes later in an adjacent zone the same ranger had called his friends and after a good fight they won hands down.</p><p>Did he complain on similar grounds "It's unfair, they're grouped." Heck no.</p><p>In the words of a friend, less QQ more PewPew.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Dequi@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't understand. If they (pre-made) bring their friends to the fight why can't you do the same?</p><p>An anecdote for you...</p><p>Although this relates to open world pvp I believe it's still relevant. I was playing with friends and jumped a well known ranger, he made a run for an instance but was stopped and ganked.</p><p>No more than five minutes later in an adjacent zone the same ranger had called his friends and after a good fight they won hands down.</p><p>Did he complain on similar grounds "It's unfair, they're grouped." Heck no.</p><p>In the words of a friend, less QQ more PewPew.</p></blockquote><p>You don't understand why the OP wants a system, which promotes fair and competitive matches in BGs?It is far from being incomprehensible to understand why the OP likes the idea of premades vs premades, and solo's vs solo's. However, there are other inherent match making issues beyond what the OP discussed, which includes BG population and the way matches are formed/accepted. Simply forcing premdes to fight other premades would not resolve some major problems.And, I have no problems bringing friends to the fight in BGs. But what do I get when I do? It is a one word answer.Bored.Yes, the answer is "Bored". Because most of the teams we end up against, consist of mix-matched PUGs. There is nothing fun, exciting, or challenging about it. Just a face-rolling, mind-numbing, coma-inducing token farm. I compare the enjoyment factor to that of visiting a cemetary. And what makes it even worse, is there is no way it would be fun for the people on the other team, either.I know that I do not speak for everyone, because it is crystal clear that some players couldn't be more proud of themselves, than when they are in a premade that is steamrolling mix matched PUGs. I will simply say, that I am proud to have a different mentality to said players.</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p>All I can say is I'd be happier if it never allowed more than 2 healers per group.</p><p>Going against 4 and 5 healers on teams last night is about the most borring waste of time I could imagine.</p>

[Elfin Hoi Man]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dequi@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't understand. If they (pre-made) bring their friends to the fight why can't you do the same?</p><p>An anecdote for you...</p><p>Although this relates to open world pvp I believe it's still relevant. I was playing with friends and jumped a well known ranger, he made a run for an instance but was stopped and ganked.</p><p>No more than five minutes later in an adjacent zone the same ranger had called his friends and after a good fight they won hands down.</p><p>Did he complain on similar grounds "It's unfair, they're grouped." Heck no.</p><p>In the words of a friend, less QQ more PewPew.</p></blockquote><p>You don't understand why the OP wants a system, which promotes fair and competitive matches in BGs?It is far from being incomprehensible to understand why the OP likes the idea of premades vs premades, and solo's vs solo's. However, there are other inherent match making issues beyond what the OP discussed, which includes BG population and the way matches are formed/accepted. Simply forcing premdes to fight other premades would not resolve some major problems.And, I have no problems bringing friends to the fight in BGs. But what do I get when I do? It is a one word answer.Bored.Yes, the answer is "Bored". Because most of the teams we end up against, consist of mix-matched PUGs. There is nothing fun, exciting, or challenging about it. Just a face-rolling, mind-numbing, coma-inducing token farm. I compare the enjoyment factor to that of visiting a cemetary. And what makes it even worse, is there is no way it would be fun for the people on the other team, either.I know that I do not speak for everyone, because it is crystal clear that some players couldn't be more proud of themselves, than when they are in a premade that is steamrolling mix matched PUGs. I will simply say, that I am proud to have a different mentality to said players.</p></blockquote><p>My friend, this is a dog eat dog world. 'Fair and competitive' is what you make it.</p><p>If a person really had a bug-bear against a particular pre-made they would bring thier friends and keep queuing for the same instance as aforementioned pre-made. After a few fights, hopefully team 'Anti-premade' will win, and the other team will logout or disband because the tokens aren't coming in as fast.</p><p>That is unless you're playing against real pvp'ers in which case be prepared for a long night.</p>

[fricky101]

<p>Pre-mades killing off lvl 30-89. No chance against 2 healers, tanks, 2 rangers, dirge, troubador, and illy and others. My group had 4 rangers and one wiz type at start then got tank and healer. With in 3 mins most had left on our side. Please dont kill at spawn point as this sucks big time. revive die revive die sucks.</p><p>From now on i'll check list if pre-made groups will just leave like everyone else is doing.</p><p>Takes forever to even start a BG. And pre-mades slow this way down. Let the pre-mades wait forever for a pre-made and not solo players.</p><p>Lvl 90-92 pre-mades are great due to the amount of players around.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Dequi@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My friend, this is a dog eat dog world. 'Fair and competitive' is what you make it.</p><p>If a person really had a bug-bear against a particular pre-made they would bring thier friends and keep queuing for the same instance as aforementioned pre-made. After a few fights, hopefully team 'Anti-premade' will win, and the other team will logout or disband because the tokens aren't coming in as fast.</p><p>That is unless you're playing against real pvp'ers in which case be prepared for a long night.</p></blockquote><p>You can call it a dog eat dog world all you want... But when it comes to what is "fair and competitive", a large part of the responsibility is in the hands of SOE, being what they create. Only a small part of the responsibility is "what we make of it".It is the working responsibility of SOE to create fair and balanced systems for EQ2. A terrible foundation, is exactly that. And this does not change, even if you can precariously balance some support beams on it. The more solid and sturdy the foundation, the more options and capacity is made available. No doubt you can see where I am going with this...Relying heavily on players, to compensate for half baked game design, is a cop-out.Go to your local sports clubs. They do not put experienced A-grade teams, against mix-matched random newbies that have never seen each other before... Let alone put a fully fielded A-grade team against an incomplete team of mix-matched randoms that are missing key roles. This applies even moreso when rewards are on the line. Why should BGs be any different?I am willing to wager that if SOE added an additional queue button for each BG zone, that was "Solo's Only", and this button means you only play against other people who queued solo... Premades would quickly see the size of the BG world shrink, because solo's that have no desire to be token fodder, will have a way to avoid premades.But some people wont like that... at all. Infact, it would probably make them furious.  Wonder why..?</p>

[Orthureon]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am willing to wager that if SOE added an additional queue button for each BG zone, that was "Solo's Only", and this button means you only play against other people who queued solo... Premades would quickly see the size of the BG world shrink, because solo's that have no desire to be token fodder, will have a way to avoid premades.But some people wont like that... at all. Infact, it would probably make them furious.  Wonder why..?</p></blockquote><p>Very good point, take away their "easy button" and most pre-mades would not bother. I would even wager that if they were on the opposite end of the equation because said "solo queue" was enabled. They would themselves come here and complain about not winning, and about the fact that they could never find any more matches in a pre-made group.</p><p>It is much easier to collectively win a match than have only one well geared player able to do anything. I have had opposing players brag about winning matches. They fail to realize that is only because they got the luck of the draw team with multiple healers. Yet I completely trounce them on the DPS parse, Kill Shots, and Total Kills.</p><p>I have seen a few variations, but most commonly it is the side with the best healer(s) who are victorious. Though I have also seen pre-mades comprised solely of DPS classes that just brute force their way to victory.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>premade's are more effective and i use to hate having to go against premades over and over again but now that the hub is there all you have to do is put one together. </p><p> i consider my self a pretty fair dps player but i doubt 3 of me could take down a good premade in gears since we would have to hold the relic as well.   in ganaks and smugs? sure but the premade problem is in gears.   smugs and ganak not so much imo.</p><p> at any rate.. leave it as it is..  unless you add new maps or games that require premades against premades.. for extra tokens/special gear cos that would be cool and well worth the effort of a putting premade together and committing to it for an extended period of time.</p>

[Exilon]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>premade's are more effective and i use to hate having to go against premades over and over again but now that the hub is there all you have to do is put one together. </p><p> i consider my self a pretty fair dps player but i doubt 3 of me could take down a good premade in gears since we would have to hold the relic as well.   in ganaks and smugs? sure but the premade problem is in gears.   smugs and ganak not so much imo.</p><p> at any rate.. leave it as it is..  unless you add new maps or games that require premades against premades.. for extra tokens/special gear cos that would be cool and well worth the effort of a putting premade together and committing to it for an extended period of time.</p></blockquote><p>The pre-made situation extends to any BG. The other night I was on my SK, with an awesome healer, and a good dps group formed in the BG hub. We won EVERY match we played, though we didn't get into smugglers den.</p><p>But the point, I was unkillable, able to self heal like I can, absorb damage and receive the heals from this Warden. The matches were all one sided.</p>