Ammo Conservation?

[Jeepned2]

<p>There are two adornments for ammo conservation available at Thurgadin Harbor. One is a 10 ammo conservation and the other a 15 ammo conservation. How effective is this adornment? Is there a cap on ammo conservation? Basically I don't understand the way this attribute works. Does an ammo conservation of 50 mean you will use only one arrow every two shots? Basically I'm clueless and was wondering if anyone had any good info on this ability.</p>

[Gealaen_Gaiamancer]

<p>Hopefully someone with more concrete knowledge will join in on this topic.  But until such a worth does, I'll say that it's my understanding that Ammo Conservation is a % chance to not use a unit of ammo per shot.  So the hypothetical 50 ammo conservation you mentioned originally would be a 50/50 for every shot whether ammo is used at all.  Again, unless I'm misunderstanding how it works--which is certainly possible!</p>

[Silzin]

I dont think the Dev's have said exactly how it works, but from what i have seen this is right. I think its out of 100%, but i dont know if you get to 100% will you stop using ammo?

[Gaarysal]

<p>iirc the cap is 70-80%</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p>While related, but more of a BG issue.</p><p>Ammo Conservation should be set to 100% in BGs, period.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p><p>When I do it I can almost pretend I'm playing an MMO with current generation mechanics opposed to still doing things like using relatively archaic ammo.</p><p>If I didn't lose 20 crit bonus and 4 reuse by adorning that much I would have it all the time.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p><p>When I do it I can almost pretend I'm playing an MMO with current generation mechanics opposed to still doing things like using relatively archaic ammo.</p><p>If I didn't lose 20 crit bonus and 4 reuse by adorning that much I would have it all the time.</p></blockquote><p>Being able to use Dragon Bone arrows 100% of the time is far ...... far better than 20CB ever thought about being.</p>

[Lethlian]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p><p>When I do it I can almost pretend I'm playing an MMO with current generation mechanics opposed to still doing things like using relatively archaic ammo.</p><p>If I didn't lose 20 crit bonus and 4 reuse by adorning that much I would have it all the time.</p></blockquote><p>Being able to use Dragon Bone arrows 100% of the time is far ...... far better than 20CB ever thought about being.</p></blockquote><p>/facepalm</p><p>Serioulsy take the time to think about what you just said....hmm would I rather gain this:</p><p><em>Dragon Bone arrows which are almost negligibly better then rhenium field point.</em></p><p>Or lose out on 20CB (which applies to EVERYTHING) and 4 reuse which applies to all CA(s), temp(s), and whatever else non melee attack associated.</p><p>Its logic like this, which leads me to believe why rangers are in the state they are presently in game.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p>Still doesn't look like anyone has really good grasp on Ammo Conservation, so going to PM Kander and see if we can get a better idea on what it's limits are. Thanks for the responses. </p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Still doesn't look like anyone has really good grasp on Ammo Conservation, so going to PM Kander and see if we can get a better idea on what it's limits are. Thanks for the responses. </p></blockquote><p>lol what? I just told you.</p><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p></blockquote><p>100 ammo conservation is 100% not to use ammo = never use ammo</p><p>50 ammo conservation = 50% chance not to use ammo</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>Let's review.</p><p>Dragon Bone Arrows, approximately an increase of 200-300 dps.</p><p>or.</p><p>18% crit bonus (6 red slots for 90, then 10% from aa for a ranger), approximately an increase of 15000-20000 dps.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Let's review.<p>Dragon Bone Arrows, approximately an increase of <span style="color: #ff0000;">200-300</span> dps.</p><p>or.</p><p>18% crit bonus (6 red slots for 90, then 10% from aa for a ranger), approximately an increase of 15000-20000 dps.</p></blockquote><p>That doesn't seem right.</p>

[Nefariouzx]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p><p>When I do it I can almost pretend I'm playing an MMO with current generation mechanics opposed to still doing things like using relatively archaic ammo.</p><p>If I didn't lose 20 crit bonus and 4 reuse by adorning that much I would have it all the time.</p></blockquote><p>Being able to use Dragon Bone arrows 100% of the time is far ...... far better than 20CB ever thought about being.</p></blockquote><p>You sir, are either incredibly confused about game mechanics or a fail troll, Im going to guess both....</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Nefariouzx@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p><p>When I do it I can almost pretend I'm playing an MMO with current generation mechanics opposed to still doing things like using relatively archaic ammo.</p><p>If I didn't lose 20 crit bonus and 4 reuse by adorning that much I would have it all the time.</p></blockquote><p>Being able to use Dragon Bone arrows 100% of the time is far ...... far better than 20CB ever thought about being.</p></blockquote><p>You sir, are either incredibly confused about game mechanics or a fail troll, Im going to guess both....</p></blockquote><p>I'm incredibly confused on many levels.  I have 12 level 92/320's and raid on half of them regularly, but never once considered ever rolling a Ranja due to thier incredible lack of utility only paralleled with thier DPS being equal to or less than other T1 classes which bring more utility, but thats neither here nor there.</p><p>I burn through 2,000 arrows in a single raid on both my fighter and my scout, but I've never used a single Dragon Bone arrow.  My personal use of Field Point arrows net hits well over 50k, so in truth I don't know what benefit Dragon Bone arrows bring outside of Rangers begging me as a RL for arrow crafting material to make Dragon Bone or Blessed arrows in the past.</p><p>So, you are all telling me is the difference in a Field Point arrow and a Dragon Bone arrow is only 200 - 300 DPS?   Basically you're telling me the arrow damage displayed on the item is additive to the damage product and not in anyway shape or form included in any part of the calculated damage beyond a stright addition after all CB is calculated.  This is good to know, extremely good to know actually, becasue I'll never again have to worry about what quality of arrows raiding rangers are bothering to use when I invite them to my raid.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p>Ok Neiloch, since I know your are in a high end raiding guild, answer a <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">couple</span> few questions for me.</p><p>1. Do you wear any ammo conservation adornments and if so on which pieces of gear.</p><p>2. Which arrows do you use?</p><p>3. If you use Dragon Bone arrows without any ammo conservation adornments, how do you afford it?</p><p>BTW, really like your AA setup. Copied it last week and got a little better dps out of my toon. Only changed about 10 aa throughout the whole lineup. Also drooling over your HM gear.</p><p>The whole question about ammo conservation came up initially not by myself in my guild but by a couple of bards who where using up a ton of arrows every night. It was a given that I'd use a ton of arrows as a Ranger but with so many of our fights having to be a max range, other classes are seeing a high arrow count used nightly also. So it's not just the ammo conservation adornments that I have questions on, but also the pro's and con's of the "regular" arrows. Some use bodkin as a "tweener" with no adverse effects, others say don't worry about the -10 hit, -5 range on broadhead, go for it anyway cause I should be able to easily over come the adverse effects. The biggest problem is, SoE has never really came out and really explained ammo conservation, accuracy and how they all work together. Overall I feel like I don't know how all the mechanics work, Ok, I take that back, I'm pretty sure I don't know them. So I had to come here to get what I hope is accurate info. Thanks to the posters who have replied so far. There are a lot of people, not just Rangers who really need to know these mechanics to improve the performance of thier toons.</p><p>Oh and the subject of Crit Bonus was brought up. I know what Crit Bonus is suppose to do, kind of. But not why 20 crit bonus is more important then being able to use Dragon Bone arrows. Seems like 20 CB wouldn't be as important, but again I'm clueless and so this post.</p><p>Thanks again.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Nefariouzx@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><nothing></blockquote><p>That's what I thought you'd say.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nefariouzx@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap is 100%. If you got 100 you would never use ammo.</p><p>When I do it I can almost pretend I'm playing an MMO with current generation mechanics opposed to still doing things like using relatively archaic ammo.</p><p>If I didn't lose 20 crit bonus and 4 reuse by adorning that much I would have it all the time.</p></blockquote><p>Being able to use Dragon Bone arrows 100% of the time is far ...... far better than 20CB ever thought about being.</p></blockquote><p>You sir, are either incredibly confused about game mechanics or a fail troll, Im going to guess both....</p></blockquote><p>I'm incredibly confused on many levels.  I have 12 level 92/320's and raid on half of them regularly, but never once considered ever rolling a Ranja due to thier incredible lack of utility only paralleled with thier DPS being equal to or less than other T1 classes which bring more utility, but thats neither here nor there.</p><p>I burn through 2,000 arrows in a single raid on both my fighter and my scout, but I've never used a single Dragon Bone arrow.  My personal use of Field Point arrows net hits well over 50k, so in truth I don't know what benefit Dragon Bone arrows bring outside of Rangers begging me as a RL for arrow crafting material to make Dragon Bone or Blessed arrows in the past.</p><p>So, you are all telling me is the difference in a Field Point arrow and a Dragon Bone arrow is only 200 - 300 DPS?   Basically you're telling me the arrow damage displayed on the item is additive to the damage product and not in anyway shape or form included in any part of the calculated damage beyond a stright addition after all CB is calculated.  This is good to know, extremely good to know actually, becasue I'll never again have to worry about what quality of arrows raiding rangers are bothering to use when I invite them to my raid.</p></blockquote><p>mastercrafted arrows are good, CB is better.</p><p>Arrows only effect auto attack, CB effect auto attack <strong>AND</strong> CA's. So CB+handcrafted is a net damage gain over ammo+dragon arrow. ammo+dragon would also rob you of ever using dragon arrows and lots of adorned CB unless you want to also have an alternate set of differently adorned gear. That's how it works. Obviously this doesn't mean arrows mean nothing and shouldn't care about them at all, that's just silly. You are wrong here. Get over it.</p><p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok Neiloch, since I know your are in a high end raiding guild, answer a <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">couple</span> few questions for me.</p><p>1. Do you wear any ammo conservation adornments and if so on which pieces of gear.</p><p>2. Which arrows do you use?</p><p>3. If you use Dragon Bone arrows without any ammo conservation adornments, how do you afford it?</p><p>BTW, really like your AA setup. Copied it last week and got a little better dps out of my toon. Only changed about 10 aa throughout the whole lineup. Also drooling over your HM gear.</p><p>The whole question about ammo conservation came up initially not by myself in my guild but by a couple of bards who where using up a ton of arrows every night. It was a given that I'd use a ton of arrows as a Ranger but with so many of our fights having to be a max range, other classes are seeing a high arrow count used nightly also. So it's not just the ammo conservation adornments that I have questions on, but also the pro's and con's of the "regular" arrows. Some use bodkin as a "tweener" with no adverse effects, others say don't worry about the -10 hit, -5 range on broadhead, go for it anyway cause I should be able to easily over come the adverse effects. The biggest problem is, SoE has never really came out and really explained ammo conservation, accuracy and how they all work together. Overall I feel like I don't know how all the mechanics work, Ok, I take that back, I'm pretty sure I don't know them. So I had to come here to get what I hope is accurate info. Thanks to the posters who have replied so far. There are a lot of people, not just Rangers who really need to know these mechanics to improve the performance of thier toons.</p><p>Oh and the subject of Crit Bonus was brought up. I know what Crit Bonus is suppose to do, kind of. But not why 20 crit bonus is more important then being able to use Dragon Bone arrows. Seems like 20 CB wouldn't be as important, but again I'm clueless and so this post.</p><p>Thanks again.</p></blockquote><p>1. No</p><p>2. Handcrafted and dragon bone field Point</p><p>3. I have some friends who run a lot of heroics and they just give me the horns. So even though my mastercrafted arrow supply is a non-issue I am still extremely displeased with how arrows work. If the devs gave me and me only the ability for infinite arrows I would still complain on the forums about arrow consumption. I still use handcrafted when doing heroics though. This may sound sadistic but I am glad other scouts are having the problem now. Only way we got an auto attack selection is when priests and mages got their spell auto attack put in. Just one class having a problem doesn't make it worthy of their attention apparently.</p><p>Arrow type: field point. Always. Until you can get 100% hit rate field point is the way to go. Only way you gonna get that is if you fighting some really easy content, possibly even below your level. Accuracy is tricky. 100% accuracy won't get you 100% hit rate. SoE math FTW. It does help though with hit rates, but I only noticed a big  difference when dealing with the harder half of PoW mobs.</p><p>Crit bonus increases damage on both CA's and auto attack if you are landing crits which should be at a 100% rate. If not definitely get more crit chance before anything else. Better arrows only effect auto attack. This is the main reason why you would want to have crit bonus over ammo conservation.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>..... This is the main reason why you would want to have crit bonus over ammo conservation.</blockquote><p>You did not say one single thing that is not common knowledge to anyone above level 50 and failed to actually answer anything that couldn't be learned from EQ2u.</p><p>What is the Net Gain for a raiding Ranger using Dragon Bone arrows for an entire raid over Field Point arrows for the cost of 20 CB, In Numbers or Percentages?</p><p>The issue is, should the ranja be expected to conserve the ammo or should the ranja be expected to consume the ammo?  This isn't an issue about arrows, this is an issue about the net gain and who is responsible for suppling the consumable.  I realize it is beyond a ranja's ability to think beyond themselves due to having zero raid utility, but RL's do like to try and max DPS when and where possible, but that doesn't include feeding ranja's ~500p in ammo a week when they are too lazy to get it themselves or conserve it depending on the cost or benefit to DPS.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>mastercrafted arrows are good, CB is better.</p><p>Arrows only effect auto attack, CB effect auto attack <strong>AND</strong> CA's. So CB+handcrafted is a net damage gain over ammo+dragon arrow. ammo+dragon would also rob you of ever using dragon arrows and lots of adorned CB unless you want to also have an alternate set of differently adorned gear. That's how it works. Obviously this doesn't mean arrows mean nothing and shouldn't care about them at all, that's just silly. You are wrong here. Get over it.</p><p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok Neiloch, since I know your are in a high end raiding guild, answer a <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">couple</span> few questions for me.</p><p>1. Do you wear any ammo conservation adornments and if so on which pieces of gear.</p><p>2. Which arrows do you use?</p><p>3. If you use Dragon Bone arrows without any ammo conservation adornments, how do you afford it?</p><p>BTW, really like your AA setup. Copied it last week and got a little better dps out of my toon. Only changed about 10 aa throughout the whole lineup. Also drooling over your HM gear.</p><p>The whole question about ammo conservation came up initially not by myself in my guild but by a couple of bards who where using up a ton of arrows every night. It was a given that I'd use a ton of arrows as a Ranger but with so many of our fights having to be a max range, other classes are seeing a high arrow count used nightly also. So it's not just the ammo conservation adornments that I have questions on, but also the pro's and con's of the "regular" arrows. Some use bodkin as a "tweener" with no adverse effects, others say don't worry about the -10 hit, -5 range on broadhead, go for it anyway cause I should be able to easily over come the adverse effects. The biggest problem is, SoE has never really came out and really explained ammo conservation, accuracy and how they all work together. Overall I feel like I don't know how all the mechanics work, Ok, I take that back, I'm pretty sure I don't know them. So I had to come here to get what I hope is accurate info. Thanks to the posters who have replied so far. There are a lot of people, not just Rangers who really need to know these mechanics to improve the performance of thier toons.</p><p>Oh and the subject of Crit Bonus was brought up. I know what Crit Bonus is suppose to do, kind of. But not why 20 crit bonus is more important then being able to use Dragon Bone arrows. Seems like 20 CB wouldn't be as important, but again I'm clueless and so this post.</p><p>Thanks again.</p></blockquote><p>1. No</p><p>2. Handcrafted and dragon bone field Point</p><p>3. I have some friends who run a lot of heroics and they just give me the horns. So even though my mastercrafted arrow supply is a non-issue I am still extremely displeased with how arrows work. If the devs gave me and me only the ability for infinite arrows I would still complain on the forums about arrow consumption. I still use handcrafted when doing heroics though. This may sound sadistic but I am glad other scouts are having the problem now. Only way we got an auto attack selection is when priests and mages got their spell auto attack put in. Just one class having a problem doesn't make it worthy of their attention apparently.</p><p>Arrow type: field point. Always. Until you can get 100% hit rate field point is the way to go. Only way you gonna get that is if you fighting some really easy content, possibly even below your level. Accuracy is tricky. 100% accuracy won't get you 100% hit rate. SoE math FTW. It does help though with hit rates, but I only noticed a big  difference when dealing with the harder half of PoW mobs.</p><p>Crit bonus increases damage on both CA's and auto attack if you are landing crits which should be at a 100% rate. If not definitely get more crit chance before anything else. Better arrows only effect auto attack. This is the main reason why you would want to have crit bonus over ammo conservation.</p></blockquote><p>Answered all my questions, thanks!</p><p>Sorry Tuckker, I think he did answer it. And didn't find your post helpfull in any way. When I started this post I thought that some people who were Ranger experts would tell me I was asking questions that I should have already known. Thankfully there are some who are also willing to help out someone not a real expert on the Ranger.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>mastercrafted arrows are good, CB is better.</p><p>Arrows only effect auto attack, CB effect auto attack <strong>AND</strong> CA's. So CB+handcrafted is a net damage gain over ammo+dragon arrow. ammo+dragon would also rob you of ever using dragon arrows and lots of adorned CB unless you want to also have an alternate set of differently adorned gear. That's how it works. Obviously this doesn't mean arrows mean nothing and shouldn't care about them at all, that's just silly. You are wrong here. Get over it.</p><p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok Neiloch, since I know your are in a high end raiding guild, answer a <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">couple</span> few questions for me.</p><p>1. Do you wear any ammo conservation adornments and if so on which pieces of gear.</p><p>2. Which arrows do you use?</p><p>3. If you use Dragon Bone arrows without any ammo conservation adornments, how do you afford it?</p><p>BTW, really like your AA setup. Copied it last week and got a little better dps out of my toon. Only changed about 10 aa throughout the whole lineup. Also drooling over your HM gear.</p><p>The whole question about ammo conservation came up initially not by myself in my guild but by a couple of bards who where using up a ton of arrows every night. It was a given that I'd use a ton of arrows as a Ranger but with so many of our fights having to be a max range, other classes are seeing a high arrow count used nightly also. So it's not just the ammo conservation adornments that I have questions on, but also the pro's and con's of the "regular" arrows. Some use bodkin as a "tweener" with no adverse effects, others say don't worry about the -10 hit, -5 range on broadhead, go for it anyway cause I should be able to easily over come the adverse effects. The biggest problem is, SoE has never really came out and really explained ammo conservation, accuracy and how they all work together. Overall I feel like I don't know how all the mechanics work, Ok, I take that back, I'm pretty sure I don't know them. So I had to come here to get what I hope is accurate info. Thanks to the posters who have replied so far. There are a lot of people, not just Rangers who really need to know these mechanics to improve the performance of thier toons.</p><p>Oh and the subject of Crit Bonus was brought up. I know what Crit Bonus is suppose to do, kind of. But not why 20 crit bonus is more important then being able to use Dragon Bone arrows. Seems like 20 CB wouldn't be as important, but again I'm clueless and so this post.</p><p>Thanks again.</p></blockquote><p>1. No</p><p>2. Handcrafted and dragon bone field Point</p><p>3. I have some friends who run a lot of heroics and they just give me the horns. So even though my mastercrafted arrow supply is a non-issue I am still extremely displeased with how arrows work. If the devs gave me and me only the ability for infinite arrows I would still complain on the forums about arrow consumption. I still use handcrafted when doing heroics though. This may sound sadistic but I am glad other scouts are having the problem now. Only way we got an auto attack selection is when priests and mages got their spell auto attack put in. Just one class having a problem doesn't make it worthy of their attention apparently.</p><p>Arrow type: field point. Always. Until you can get 100% hit rate field point is the way to go. Only way you gonna get that is if you fighting some really easy content, possibly even below your level. Accuracy is tricky. 100% accuracy won't get you 100% hit rate. SoE math FTW. It does help though with hit rates, but I only noticed a big  difference when dealing with the harder half of PoW mobs.</p><p>Crit bonus increases damage on both CA's and auto attack if you are landing crits which should be at a 100% rate. If not definitely get more crit chance before anything else. Better arrows only effect auto attack. This is the main reason why you would want to have crit bonus over ammo conservation.</p></blockquote><p>Answered all my questions, thanks!</p><p>Sorry Tuckker, I think he did answer it. And didn't find your post helpfull in any way. When I started this post I thought that some people who were Ranger experts would tell me I was asking questions that I should have already known. Thankfully there are some who are also willing to help out someone not a real expert on the Ranger.</p></blockquote><p>How much more zonewide damage does a Dragon Bone Arrow bring to a raid over a Field point arrow? </p><p>Buffrat said 200 - 300 dps and that is of course worng.  I understand if you do not care.  I understand that you do not know.   I understand that nobody in this threat hasa any clue.  I understand that CB + Dragon Bone arrows is prefered.  You're more than welcome to contiue on without ever understanding how the different damage and ToHit bonuses of your selected arrow effect the ZW dps. </p><p>What I do not understand is at what point of the gear and adornment process does having Dragon Bone arrow bring more DPS to a raid than 20 CB, because there is certainly a convergance.  Everything cant be viewed from a fully gear and adorned position when there are people gearing every day which could easily produce more DPS if they were smarter and understood what actually effect thier class, I just don't know what more is at this point and this thread certainly did not determine it.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>I would be much more inclined to help you out if every single reply you posted wasn't peppered with a condescending tone and insults. People don't <em>need</em> to help you so it's best to be civil when asking for it.</p>

[Twyxx]

<p>The way I understand (and could be wrong) the damage bonus is that it works similarly to ability mod, but for auto attacks. </p><p>The difference between dragon bone and rhenium field points is 355 dmg mod.</p><p>An average single target auto would be 1 (original hit) + 6 (multis) + 2.25 (flurry based on 75%) = 9.25 hits x 355 = 3284.  Say a 4.1 avg delay (optimistic) so 3284/4.1 = 801 dps. Ae auto adds to that but is situational.</p><p>Then I'm assuming if it works like mod that cb is applied on top of that.  With 300cb that'd be 801 x 4.3 (i think?) so 3444 dps?  I don't claim to be the best at eq2 math, but that's where I'd put the value of the arrows ballpark. </p><p>Reached my math limit for a Saturday, but 20 cb is far greater than 3444 (+whatever ae auto adds) dps.</p><p>I use rhenium field points now because the price of horns is up to 50pp on Unrest.  And I have no interest in running ss heroics for them or farming enough plat to keep me in dragon bones when I could be enjoying myself in gw2 instead.</p><p>If you raid high end I can't see how you can give up the cb for ammo conservation.  If you play casually or pug raids then I'd definitely go for ammo conservation.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p>Thanks Twyxx. We are trying to be a higher level raiding guild. Will get there soon enough. My problem is also that I don't want to spend time running down the horns either. On Permafrost they will run you 50-60 plat each. But I go through about 2000-3000 arrows per raid night, so hence the question I brought up about ammo conserv vs. Crit Bonus. I too have switched to Rherium field points. I just don't see a way for me to keep up an inventory of Dragon Bones at the cost that they currently are. Would be nice if they dropped off of trash mobs in raid zones <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.</p><p>So based on the info provided so far, going with the RFP arrows and CB. I did go with Neiloch's AA setup for the most part. The big difference right now is that I'm running a shield instead of a second weapon. Mostly because a second good weapon hasn't drop yet that I could get my hands on (other scouts beating me out on RP are getting it). Plus the stats on the shield are fantastic compared to the weapons. I'm I missing out on dps when in the sweet spot? Sure, but you do the best with what you have until you can upgrade. (btw the shield has allowed me to survive a couple of times when I would not have with two weapons. And everyone knows a ranger eating dirt doesn't dps well!)</p><p>PS. Has been mostly rangers talking about this in forums. Was wondering what other scouts are doing? Our bards where waiting for me to get the info from this thread then pass it along. But other scouts must be burning up arrows also, even if it is just during jousts. What are you guys doing? Are you using so few arrows that you can afford to use the Dragon Bone arrows consistantly? Oh and tanks in recklessness mode, you have to be jousting also, how's you arrow consumption? Ok, for the bruisers and monks, know you are throwing things so you don't count!! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Twyxx]

<p>You don't have to worry about shield vs blade for offhand.  Whichever has the better stats is best.  You should be setting your auto attacked to forced ranged anyway so you'll never hit with a blade.  The advantage of a shield is you can reforge the block chance.  Though since the original hm drunder they dropped the block chance on shields and added a hate gain proc (usually overcap in raid anyway so not a huge deal).  I was using an old hm drunder shield until recently when I got a 2nd PoW blade.  It had a red slot which I used for wild swings rune.  If you still have one of those laying around it's not a bad offhand.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Twyxx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The way I understand (and could be wrong) the damage bonus is that it works similarly to ability mod, but for auto attacks. </p><p>The difference between dragon bone and rhenium field points is 355 dmg mod.</p><p>An average single target auto would be 1 (original hit) + 6 (multis) + 2.25 (flurry based on 75%) = 9.25 hits x 355 = 3284.  Say a 4.1 avg delay (optimistic) so 3284/4.1 =<span style="color: #ff0000;"> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">801</span></strong> </span>dps. Ae auto adds to that but is situational.</p><p>Then I'm assuming if it works like mod that cb is applied on top of that.  With 300cb that'd be 801 x <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">4.3</span></strong></span> (i think?) so 3444 dps?  I don't claim to be the best at eq2 math, but that's where I'd put the value of the arrows ballpark. </p><p>Reached my math limit for a Saturday, but 20 cb is far greater than 3444 (+whatever ae auto adds) dps.</p><p>I use rhenium field points now because the price of horns is up to 50pp on Unrest.  And I have no interest in running ss heroics for them or farming enough plat to keep me in dragon bones when I could be enjoying myself in gw2 instead.</p><p>If you raid high end I can't see how you can give up the cb for ammo conservation.  If you play casually or pug raids then I'd definitely go for ammo conservation.</p></blockquote><p>Without disputing or vetting any of the formulas or math, I believe the conclusion you've drawn is incorrect.</p>

[Twyxx]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do know that adding more damage before the Crit Bonus is applied will make the final product higher than adding more CB. </p></blockquote><p>This is completely false.  Unless of course every top dps'er out there is doing it backwards by valuing cb and/or potency far more than ability mod. </p><p>Plus cb applies to all damage, not just auto attack.  Even a auto-heavy class like ranger will only have ~40% of their damage from auto attack if they push their buttons well.  Your 355 arrow mod doesn't benefit the other 60% at all. </p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Twyxx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do know that adding more damage before the Crit Bonus is applied will make the final product higher than adding more CB. </p></blockquote><p>This is completely false.  Unless of course every top dps'er out there is doing it backwards by valuing cb and/or <span style="color: #ff0000;">potency </span>far more than ability mod. </p><p>Plus cb applies to all damage, not just auto attack.  Even a auto-heavy class like ranger will only have ~40% of their damage from auto attack if they push their buttons well.  Your 355 arrow mod doesn't benefit the other 60% at all. </p></blockquote><p>Potency is added before CB is calculated, just like Ab Mod.</p>

[Landiin]

And your point?

[Ponyts]

<p>Am i missing something on ammo? i've been using the rhenium broadhead arrows, i've tested them on epic target dummies and with just a auto shot i get around 110k dps. I just tested some field points and i'm getting around 50k dps auto shot?</p><p>Thanks in advance.</p>

[Twyxx]

<p>You're saying you get over twice the dps from auto by using rhen broadheads vs rhen field points on an epic dummy?  Something's off there. Post screenshots of the parse so we can see what's missing.</p><p>Also, you're gonna have 100% hit rates on the dummies so the value of a field point is negated there.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>Ponyts wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Am i missing something on ammo? i've been using the rhenium broadhead arrows, i've tested them on epic target dummies and with just a auto shot i get around 110k dps. I just tested some field points and i'm getting around 50k dps auto shot?</p><p>Thanks in advance.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, you're overvaluing the damage per hit, versus your actual hit rate.  Broadhead arrows carry a negative chance to hit. Rhenium broadhead arrows carry a negative 10% to hit, while field point give a +10% chance to hit.  20% swing in hit rates with your auto attack, which is especially noticable when fighting against a raid mob.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Ponyts wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Am i missing something on ammo? i've been using the rhenium broadhead arrows, i've tested them on <strong>epic target dummies</strong> and with just a auto shot i get around 110k dps. I just tested some field points and i'm getting around 50k dps auto shot?</p><p>Thanks in advance.</p></blockquote><p>Epic target dummy is a far cry from a normal mob, especially a raid one. Unless you fight blue/green con content most of the time broadhead and bodkin are going to yield less DPS than field point because of the hit rate, as Seiffil pointed out.</p><p>To put it simply if you are looking at <strong><em>JUST</em></strong> auto attack, ammo conservation(AC)+dragon arrows(DB) will do more DPS than CB+hand crafted(HC) arrows. Although this is completely neglecting that CB increases CA's damage. So, in a very vague theory, someone who either has horrendous equipment or just sucks at being a ranger would see more DPS out of AC+DB than CB+HC. SS raid gear should easily pull someone out of the 'horrendous equipment' category though.</p>

[Regolas]

I've calculated via a spreadsheet (im an engineer, i love this shizzle), that you loose about 1500dps off your base autoattack for losing 20% cb. Without even factoring in CA damage loss. Seems to remain the same gap (ish) regardless of what cb level you are, but will be bigger if your weapon damage is greater and less if your weapon dmg is lower. Of course my numbers may be totally wrong but they look about right. Going from 200cb to 400 gives 1.6 x the dmg output.

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Ponyts wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Am i missing something on ammo? i've been using the rhenium broadhead arrows, i've tested them on epic target dummies and with just a auto shot i get around 110k dps. I just tested some field points and i'm getting around 50k dps auto shot?</p><p>Thanks in advance.</p></blockquote><p>ToHit rating and CA's a side, 60k DPS from RFP to RBA is very interesting since the only difference is a couple hundred damage.  Sounds like the formula to calculate damage remains a mystery, but certainly is not additive.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Arrow damage is added to the weapons damage outright in the persona window and /weaponstats. Both low and high end. For example when I equip a dragon bone arrow, compared to no ammo it adds roughly 532 damage to both my low and high end base damage of my bow.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Arrow damage is added to the weapons damage outright in the persona window and /weaponstats. Both low and high end. For example when I equip a dragon bone arrow, compared to no ammo it adds roughly 532 damage to both my low and high end base damage of my bow.</p></blockquote><p>Just curious; if your Bow's high end is ~1500 w/ ~ 220 DPS rating, and you add a +500 arrow; you high-end is changes to 2000, what does that DPS rating change to?</p>

[Twyxx]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Arrow damage is added to the weapons damage outright in the persona window and /weaponstats. Both low and high end. For example when I equip a dragon bone arrow, compared to no ammo it adds roughly 532 damage to both my low and high end base damage of my bow.</p></blockquote><p>Just curious; if your Bow's high end is ~1500 w/ ~ 220 DPS rating, and you add a +500 arrow; you high-end is changes to 2000, what does that DPS rating change to?</p></blockquote><p>He's not saying it adds to the dmg rating.  On your char screen you can see the damage output before cb similar to hovering over a combat art.  That's where it is added.  So it's working like mod as I suggested.  Think my ballpark math still holds up here.  The more cb you have the more benefit you'll see, but with my cb of 372.9 (solo, more in raid/fight obv) it's about 4000 dps assuming I'm not getting stunned or delaying my auto more than .1 sec on avg (optimistic). </p><p>As an example on Boar tonight I did 732k.  Say an extra 1k for the increased cb in raid.  The arrows diff between dragon bone and rhenium field point would be 5k or .6% of my parse.  Would I like to have it?  Sure.  Am I gonna pay 150 plat to fill my quiver for .6% of my parse?  No.  If you can get em free, great.  If not, meh, not a huge deal.</p>

[Crychtonn]

<p>If you don't have a Myth bow or equivalent the mastercrafted raid bow works well for saving arrows.  It has the same DR as the bow off Berrik and the same damage / group buff proc.  Blue stats are similar with Berrk bow being slightly higher.  The crafted bow has a second proc giving 50% ammo conservation.</p><p>As an assassin I don't range and use arrows as much as a ranger but after getting the crafted bow early on it was easy to see the difference in ammo use.  I'd guess that having both the bows ammo conservation proc plus the ranger myth buff ammo conservation rangers could significantly reduce ammo use without loosing CB adornments for ammo conservation adornments.</p>