Lethality

[Kode Black]

<p>I have done some testing with this and fail to see a positive return. I am not understanding the mechanics, or it is broken.</p><p>I have adorned gear with 25 lethality point adorns and recorded changes both before and after on combat arts and heals. I am seeing almost no return. Where my stats tell me I should see a 1% increase to my damage and heals, I am seeing 1/10 of that actually returned. I understand that stats are multiplicative and it matters where the stat falls into place in the equation, but at this rate I can not see how lethality is at all effective. It seems rather ineffective.</p><p>I tried swapping out some of my raid gear with a teir 1 and teir 2 PvP piece, I wondered if the loss of my soft cap stats would make a difference vs. the gain I would see in lethality. My heals went up barely (talking like .1%) and my damage went down slightly (around .5%). I specifically chose pieces that would only be effected by CB/Pot/lethality</p><p>I just dont understand. Has anyone else tested the pvp stats out at all?</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>i haven't tested it but i'm pretty sure devs managed to overnerf the stat instead of just increasing melee damage vs. mage damage.  that was the reason it got nerfed because casters were getting too much out of it</p>

[Thor71457]

<p>Yes, as of now see no use for Lethality .  I get more out of the toughness stat....</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p><cite>Thor71457 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, as of now see no use for Lethality .  I get more out of the toughness stat....</p></blockquote><p>Both stats need to be increased in effectiveness.  As it stands now, there is no point in using pvp gear in pvp combat if you already have access to raid gear in your tier.</p>

[Davngr]

<p>yea well..   raid gear needs to stay competative in bg's or people who raid won't feel like doing bg's and that make for a fail situation.</p><p> top end raid gear (pow) should be roughly equal to T3 bg's gear in pvp.</p><p> they just need to make it like it was before and increase CA damage so it's equal to spell damage by removing the penalty.  also this would require adjusting heals but tbh they're pretty ok right now.   </p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Gear seperatation was alot better it just needed some variety of (newer than SF) pvp gear added along with more beginner crafted options for the people who like to kill dragons to compete unfortunately they let people who can stay awake through EM/easy HM encounters a free pass to beat people who just want to pvp.</p><p>Overall it was an above average attempt by SoE, but unfortunately dragon dropped gear is still best in slot vs. pvp gear for both pve and pvp content so they will win by default for the most part.</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea well..   raid gear needs to stay competative in bg's or people who raid won't feel like doing bg's and that make for a fail situation.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it should be competitive, but the top pvp gear should be best in pvp combat if only marginally.  At the moment, it isn't remotely the case.</p><p>And it shouldn't be fixed by upping the stats on pvp gear, it should be leveled by making toughness and lethality more effective.</p>

[Davngr]

<p><cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea well..   raid gear needs to stay competative in bg's or people who raid won't feel like doing bg's and that make for a fail situation.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it should be competitive, but the top pvp gear should be best in pvp combat if only marginally.  At the moment, it isn't remotely the case.</p><p>And it shouldn't be fixed by upping the stats on pvp gear, it should be leveled by making toughness and lethality more effective.</p></blockquote><p>i don't agree that pvp gear should be the end all best gear for pvp but i do agree that the pvp stats need to be fixed.   </p><p> also would suggest taking the potions for leth/tough be taken out of the game or be changed to modify your base stats instead of adding the stat.   this would prevent well geared pve classes to benefit from the stat since this was the problem in the first place.</p>

[Kode Black]

<p>I would hate to see a huge disparity in the effectiveness of any gear to be honest. The devs have really done a good job lately, in my opinion, and I know that is hotly contested. I do believe that top level pvp gear should be better than top level raid gear, for pvp... that is stating the obvious in my opinion. The difference between SS heroic gear and HM raid gear right now is very small. That was a step in the right direction in my opinion. I personally believe the soft caps have worked out well, though I would encourage the devs to look again at the effect of ability mod in pvp.</p><p>My compliant, to reiterate, is on the lack of effectiveness of lethality. It does not appear to be returning proper gains... based on solid testing.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Raid gear should only be best in slot for pvp if it is actually difficult to aquire which hasnt been the case when you look at EM raid gear since SF.</p><p>Highest tier pvp gear should be better than every other type of gear in pvp then the stuff guilds like Equilibrium wears then the next tier of pvp gear then the stuff every other raider wears along with the first pvp tiered gear then heroic/playermade pvp gear should be at the bottom.</p><p>But again it was a nice try by SoE I had no idea they would be able to accomplish what they did with what they had to work with</p>

[ratbast]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gear seperatation was alot better it just needed some variety of (newer than SF) pvp gear added along with more beginner crafted options for the people who like to kill dragons to compete unfortunately they let people who can stay awake through EM/easy HM encounters a free pass to beat people who just want to pvp.</p><p>Overall it was an above average attempt by SoE, but unfortunately dragon dropped gear is still best in slot vs. pvp gear for both pve and pvp content so they will win by default for the most part.</p></blockquote><p>if someone who is a straight pvper cant pwn a 'stay awake' raider (even with gear disparity) then why is that pvper even playing? i think its safe to assume you mean stay awake as a deragatory term and that the player sucks at pushing buttons.</p><p>usually pvpers have just as much opportunity to get pvp gear as raiders have to get theirs. (with stay awake type pvpers getting tokens)</p><p>if you want a bunch of blubies walking around ready to be hunted you cant make their gear crap in pvp context. they wont invest the time for tokens, they wont play cuz they are winning, and they expect their 'stay awake' gear to make them powerful, or at the very least have a fighting chance.</p><p>pvp isnt my favorite part of eq2. i bet you do care about pvp tho. so if you cant make this concession (op pve gear) for 'stay awake' raiders to get them like sheep into the slaughterhouse, how bad at pvp does that make you?</p><p>the more powerful you make lethality and toughness the more pvp will be an exclusive community. i think a better solution (if you want integration) is to add lethality and toughness to all gear (including pve raid gear). raiding plus grinding tokens is a large time investment. most raiders i know log in, raid, and log out. that is how they spend their eq2 time. recently they will occasionally do some bg.</p><p>i think devs should listen to the pvp community tho. if you want isolation they should give it to you. sounds like you want raiding and pvp gear progression to be completely separate gear progression paths. except no you dont. you arent complaining about the crit chance on pvp weapons and ppl doing DoV raids with pvp gear. nice.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea well..   raid gear needs to stay competative in bg's or people who raid won't feel like doing bg's and that make for a fail situation.</p><p> top end raid gear (pow) should be roughly equal to T3 bg's gear in pvp.</p><p> they just need to make it like it was before and increase CA damage so it's equal to spell damage by removing the penalty.  also this would require adjusting heals but tbh they're pretty ok right now.   </p></blockquote><p>I just disagree that someone could sit in guild hal during raids and come out competitivly geared againt people who have done the grind to get the pvp gear but I agree they shouldnt be gimped compared to pvp geared toons. just slightly less effective .</p>

[Davngr]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea well..   raid gear needs to stay competative in bg's or people who raid won't feel like doing bg's and that make for a fail situation.</p><p> top end raid gear (pow) should be roughly equal to T3 bg's gear in pvp.</p><p> they just need to make it like it was before and increase CA damage so it's equal to spell damage by removing the penalty.  also this would require adjusting heals but tbh they're pretty ok right now.   </p></blockquote><p>I just disagree that someone could sit in guild hal during raids and come out competitivly geared againt people who have done the grind to get the pvp gear but I agree they shouldnt be gimped compared to pvp geared toons. just slightly less effective .</p></blockquote><p>yea, but it's a fine line between people queuing up to have fun and not.   </p><p> pvp gear should offer stuff that makes you more effective at pvp but stay at about the same power as pve.   meaning that pow gear will be about as powerful as t3 pvp gear but add pvp wards/immunities/stoneskins/incombat movement/wards and other stuff like that, that does not necessarily make pvp gear WAY better but it does give someone an edge if they equip it and thus tokens mean something.   i agree that right now a fully pow geared character is probably farming tokens for alts and yea that player should want to equip T3 pvp gear instead.</p>

[Cynicisim]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><p>I just disagree that someone could sit in guild hal during raids and come out competitivly geared againt people who have done the grind to get the pvp gear but I agree they shouldnt be gimped compared to pvp geared toons. just slightly less effective .</p></blockquote><p>Well, I think raiding is more of a grind then BGs or WFs. 4 nights a week for 16 hours to get prhaps one piece of gear that you need or can use? lol. That is not for me. At least in pvp (BGs or WFs) I can pick which piece of gear I want. If I took 24 toons into the BGs and WF for 16 hours compare how much gear I would get v raiding...</p><p>As far as testing leathality and such I do not know as I will never raid again and have not since before SOF came out. I will take what they gave me in pvp gear and hope for the best or not renew my sub.</p>

[Gealaen_Gaiamancer]

<p style="text-align: justify;">Level 56 ranger, in full level 50 BG gear (Unrest.Tyraen):</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Toughness score gives 11.2% damage reduction and 5.5ish% PVP crit mit</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Lethality score gives 11.0% damage increase</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">How does this stack up against folks in the 30-89 tier?  Pretty darn well, actually.  I'm not sure how much of it is being a ranger versus being a ranger in BG gear (not to mention learning the class and how to PVP), but once I finished getting fully dressed with the lvl50BG I started hitting at or near the top in kill count and DMGout in pretty much every BG.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Yeah, that's not a very scientific study.  But I can say that the BG gear itself is at least somewhat effective, although there are some 80-89s that are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">markedly</span> less squishy than everyone else (I presume they're wearing raid gear, or otherwise don't suck at pushing buttons).  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Applo]

<p>I decided to test this out, because I couldn't tell a difference in my heal/dmg or survivability with a full set on.  So I compared the stats inside a BG with my 50fury.</p><p>-With full PVP set <strong><em>I gained</em></strong>:  Toughness (6.8% pvp dmg reduction, 3.5% pvp crit mit); Lethality (5.4% in pvp dmg/heals).</p><p><strong><em>-</em></strong>With a mix of PvP/PvE set<strong><em> I lost</em></strong>:  5K health, 1.2K power, 4% dmg/heals from wisdom, 4% in resists, 1% mitigation, 6% crit bonus, 8% potency.</p><p>I pulled out the parser to see how lethality translated on average for spells in a few bgs.  Lethality seems to work like potency.  In the end, my dmg and heals were averaging about 6% less with the full set on.  Toughness isn't worth much when you take into account the health and mitigation you lose compared to PvE items.  I only have a few pvp items equipped now.</p><p>I assume they built the effectiveness for the 92 pvp set, because almost every item in the 30-89pvp sets are worse than PvE gear.  But I'm just being optimistic, I don't have the 92 pvp set yet.</p>

[Kode Black]

<p>I appreciate your feedback Applo.</p><p>For reference I can give you some data I collected a little while ago.</p><p>In some T2 pvp pieces at 92, the trade off looked like this:</p><p>Blue stats:</p><p>-.9potency, -.5CB, +58 ability mod, -303 wisdom(-3.06% wisdom based mod)</p><p>-6% MA, -1% dps mod, -6.8 aoe auto attack, -1% flurry</p><p>Supposedly I gained 11% pvp damage reduction and 4.7% lethality.</p><p>My combat arts and heals were effected as follow: Heals on average went UP 2% exactly. Combat arts and spells on average went down .9%.</p><p>I further broke all this data down, but I wont post it here. I wasnt able to make much sense of it because I dont have all the formulae that EQ2 uses, though I can get unscientifically close. I understand what is happening, though I maintain that lethality appears to be weak. It is more likely only half as effective as it says it is.</p>

[Ulrichvon]

<p><cite>Applo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I assume they built the effectiveness for the 92 pvp set, because almost every item in the 30-89pvp sets are worse than PvE gear.  But I'm just being optimistic, I don't have the 92 pvp set yet.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty much, SS EM raid gear > 92 PVP set, with obvious exception of shoulders and ears, which are very hard to get raiding.</p><p>I have the pvp chest and legs and don't even bother to equip them, as my raid gear is far superior.</p>

[CowControl]

<p>Well, actualy, we need split this in 2 parts. Low lvls BGs and high lvls BGs.</p><p>On low lvl BGs: my tests say that there lethany / tough do nothing. All depend on lvl u are. Like 3 week ago i leveled my lvl 10 sin that i made too see neriak changes. I PL to 35 then i join BGs, yes with T1 armour... i killed lvls 80 very easy, i was hiting very high and geting low dmg... I staert get some gear, not really noticed a change. Top dps i noticed was at lvl 50 with full BG gear. Some styles was doing 9k,now i lvled more, still full BG gear of tierand my dmg was going down... bost on lvls > gear. Also got a warlock, with 0 Bg gear, only pve items... top dps all time i play it and ppl with full BG gear die in 2 sec...</p><p>On high lvl BGs: things are little diferent. SOE dont really made a hard work with items. They just get items from SS and add lethany / tougth, drops from contested for T2 and EM for T3. That stats not really make changes. I gona say about KA bg, since is 6 Vs 6 (if all work ok <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and less say there is similar groups, 2 healer, tank, dps on both sides. My warden, full EM gear, not even adorms since is an alt, if u do rigth u dont die at all with 0 tougth. Now lest try same with BG geared alt, not full T3 but close, I dont noticed any dps reduction from same ppl that was hiting me before. I add lethany adorms in all armour, not noticed any change in dps.</p><p>On end, that stats work nothing atm. The BG items are nice to supply the lack on shoulders / ears, but we can count it as basic pew pew gear for BG. With HM gear u will owned more that with full BG gear. I think that work OK, all can get gear to play easy in balanced games. If u are able do HM... well, u deserve that little advantage, dont u??. The only problem i meet with BG gear is the low options u have to get gear. On my coercer, i think that is sux that all gear come with ranged dps... and what happen to ppl that want to go melee?? i can reforge but atleast 1 stat in each item will be wasted since all come with 2 and i can reforge only 1!! For tanks i see not many options also, u not allowed go DPS as tank? ;P</p>

[Astornoth]

<p>Well I C one great problem with most of your posts.U compare theoretical statistics vs real game...hehe that`s why I got regulary 50 kills streak on smuglers ;P</p><p>On Nagafen server pll used 2 wear full set of items (all time PvP armor and jewlery) that literly cut they hp and most of theier stats 2 half..think about it.</p><p>Even do thougness and leathality stats work rather weak on paper in actuall combat (use ACT,don`t depend on those raports!) they are are all the difrence between death and win.My zerker with raid gear 55k+ hp when he casted aoe force threat is was even 2 suicide..most healers can`t heal me and I die in less then 10s.Now when I got above 1,3k of thougness I can tank X2 if they don`t pick on my single healer 2 much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />,no problem... so what I still got 10k of hp less then I used 2.If U don`t switch your PvP T2 item with raid gear item U are crippling your toon.</p>