Fix berserkers pls. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Netty

08-23-2012, 08:32 PM

For a long time now the berserk class has been forgotten when it comes to end game. Most ppl use them to power lvl other toons with and so on. With the prestige points that came sure zerks got a small boost. But so did every other tank class. So berserks is still the worst of them all when it comes to tanking. You dont see much complains about it any more since most have given up hope of the class ever being able to compete again on a raid level. And most ideas that are up on the table are either to OP or stuff that dont need to be fixed at all. Here i have a small list of not to OP things that would make the berserk class a better tank again.1.The damage with a shield (defensiv) on both warriors is a joke vs ALL other tanks. Remove the 30sec down timer on reversal and make it proc on every avoided hit.2.Hate is very bad on the class. Add a small hate siphon on berserk, And make the hate proc on Adrenaline crit again.3. Remove cancel by CA on dragon reflexes. All the other tanks - warriors have temp avoidance buffs with out it so it makes no sens that they should be punished for having it.4. The berserkers health is by far lowest of any class in the game. For me thats a joke since we are tank no? Add 10% max health somewhere pls.5. The berserkers Singel target CA:s are lowest of all tank classes and need a boost. Other tanks get it so why not a berserkers.6. Change Focus berserk that adds combat skill to berserk into something els like add str/agi and reuse speed. The class utility is worst of all tanks so they really do need a boost there. Or add a tiny damage proc to berserk.7. Focus controlled rage need to be boosted... 5% block chance on a temp buff is just silly imo.8. Change wall of force into a all damage stone skin. Berserks have a hard time to survive aoe:s and death touches so its badly needed.9.Remove the power drain on Adrenaline. Befor when the buff was damage reduction it might have been needed but now you cant use it since you put power drain on 50% of the raid encounters. Its not amazing so there is no need for the power drain anymore.10. Lower the reuse on unyielding will. The reuse on it is just to long.11. Stunning roar need to have the casting speed cut in half if not more.I have alot of ideas but that is a start and would make berserks good tanks again.

Kaberu

08-24-2012, 03:51 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.The damage with a shield (defensiv) on both warriors is a joke vs ALL other tanks. Remove the 30sec down timer on reversal and make it proc on every avoided hit.It's especially annoying as it also affects our aggro generation in what should be our "group" tank mode.2.Hate is very bad on the class. Add a small hate siphon on berserk, And make the hate proc on Adrenaline crit again.While this is true, reforging stats I just don't need or have too much of as a berserker into hate gain is very easy (like AE strike, excess DPS and Haste). It's a bit harder for other tanks to do this until they have some very nice gear as they can't cap these as easily.3. Remove cancel by CA on dragon reflexes. All the other tanks - warriors have temp avoidance buffs with out it so it makes no sens that they should be punished for having it.Yes please!!! It's silly to cancel on CA and does the description even mention it cancelling?4. The berserkers health is by far lowest of any class in the game. For me thats a joke since we are tank no? Add 10% max health somewhere pls.As with hate, it's easy to reforge excess or useless stats into health, but a static boost would be nice. 5. The berserkers Singel target CA:s are lowest of all tank classes and need a boost. Other tanks get it so why not a berserkers.I don't see this as much of an issue as our AOEs get massive boosts to damage. But that's mostly at 91/92 with presitge points and a lot of AAs so it would be a nice boost for up and coming Berserkers. But then again, what does a level 46 Berserker parse compared to other level 46 classes these days? Or at 56, or 72, etc... I'm not sure we have numbers to back this up, except for old raid-geared parses before the modern changes were in effect perhaps.6. Change Focus berserk that adds combat skill to berserk into something els like add str/agi and reuse speed. The class utility is worst of all tanks so they really do need a boost there. Or add a tiny damage proc to berserk.Maybe a nice temporary HP boost so that while we are berserk, we get a 10% to 20% boost to max HP and the group gets maybe a 5% to 10%? It might work...7. Focus controlled rage need to be boosted... 5% block chance on a temp buff is just silly imo.No argument here, 5% is nearly as good as nothing it seems.8. Change wall of force into a all damage stone skin. Berserks have a hard time to survive aoe:s and death touches so its badly needed.Anything that helps with incoming spell damage would be nice in my book.9.Remove the power drain on berserk. Befor when the buff was damage reduction it might have been needed but now you cant use it since you put power drain on 50% of the raid encounters. Its not amazing so there is no need for the power drain anymore.I think you mean Adrenaline, but yes... considering some of the excellent defensive buffs other tanks get, the power cost is just way too high considering it only works while berserk (which can occasionally be an issue in heavily scripted fights or with lots of CCing mobs).10. Lower the reuse on unyielding will. The reuse on it is just to long.With a shorter recast, it would make for a nice reliable substitute defensive ability. At the moment I consider it an emergency backup to Vision of Madness or as a heal booster to VoM if things really hit the fan.11. Stunning roar need to have the casting speed cut in half if not more.I try to use this ability out of pity, but I immediately regret doing so as soon as I click it. If it had a long stun time it might be worth it. Maybe 5+ seconds? What is it now? Two seconds? </blockquote>

Netty

08-24-2012, 04:41 PM

Ment adrenaline aye. And i have 100% hate gain raid buff and dps still rip the mobs off like it was nothing. The hate vs other tanks is like night and day. Thats why its badly needed with a transfer. You need a perfect set up for a berserk so yes the hate siphon is needed. Singel target CA:s is a big part of our singel target dps. A zerk with a shield should be able to parse just as well as a brawler/crusader with a shield/dstance.Hp on berserk no... It need to be on all the time... we are tanks and we have the lowest HP of all classes.

Kaberu

08-25-2012, 12:48 PM

If you're the same Netty on Splitpaw, I can see why you have aggro problems... the Strength line would add 30% to your taunts which is a big boost. You also seem to neglect a few other threat generating AAs that when combined, would add a lot of aggro generation. I don't have Strength either, but I'm not in the positions of losing aggro due to the content and players I currently run with. I do have a backup spec with it however... just in case. If that's not you, then pay no attention to this reply. If it is, give some thought to a respec. You do have to build your character for the job you want!

Kaberu

08-25-2012, 12:52 PM

Uh I should also add that you seem to have a few important abilities at Apprentice level and Insolence is only journeyman...

Netty

08-25-2012, 04:21 PM

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're the same Netty on Splitpaw, I can see why you have aggro problems... the Strength line would add 30% to your taunts which is a big boost. You also seem to neglect a few other threat generating AAs that when combined, would add a lot of aggro generation. I don't have Strength either, but I'm not in the positions of losing aggro due to the content and players I currently run with. I do have a backup spec with it however... just in case. If that's not you, then pay no attention to this reply. If it is, give some thought to a respec. You do have to build your character for the job you want!</blockquote>I dont play the toon as main anymore and yes thats the toon. I have been tanking since 2005 and know that taunts does kinda much nothing for you. If you try and parse them out you see what i mean. And what do you run on your tank? Heroics? This is fixes for raiding on berserks. Nothing els. Heroics and solo is fine. The str line is a waste once you have the CC to counter the rest. Taunts are junk and always will be. And if you took your time to check that out you would know what i was talking about. Just check act what a taunt other that Insolens does for you. Yes i havent bothered to buy the new masters on him yet as i dont play him much at all atm. The rest is mastered and the upgrades are kinda meh anyway and would do nothing for the class.

Kaberu

08-25-2012, 10:20 PM

You don't think it's a little weird to complain about aggro generation while also saying taunts are worthless? Also, doesn't the taunt bonus from the Strength line also boost our taunt procs from other abilities? A boost that big to all seems to make a big difference overall. Looking at some of the raid Berserkers on my server seems to indicate that the Strength line is indeed a good choice... the few I checked out all have full points in the taunt/hate AA. That's not to say we don't need help or tweaking but you definitely seem to be in a non-optimal AA build... at least since I last checked. While raiding might be your focus, it's a bit weird to focus on berserkers when your own doesn't seem to be raid ready itself. Aside from that and as I noted, you generally seem to have good ideas!

Netty

08-26-2012, 12:00 PM

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't think it's a little weird to complain about aggro generation while also saying taunts are worthless? Also, doesn't the taunt bonus from the Strength line also boost our taunt procs from other abilities? A boost that big to all seems to make a big difference overall. Looking at some of the raid Berserkers on my server seems to indicate that the Strength line is indeed a good choice... the few I checked out all have full points in the taunt/hate AA. That's not to say we don't need help or tweaking but you definitely seem to be in a non-optimal AA build... at least since I last checked. While raiding might be your focus, it's a bit weird to focus on berserkers when your own doesn't seem to be raid ready itself. Aside from that and as I noted, you generally seem to have good ideas!</blockquote>As i said befor you claim that taunts does something for you parse them out and you will see that they dont. The new tiers master will do abit not much tho so thats why i havent got them yet since i have 100% of the rest master the old tier is just fine for now. If you want to i buy them and rewrite the thread since nothing will change. My zerk is not raid rdy? Well maybe not for this expack but he was back in dov. Fully mastered with a mix of HM and EM and drunder gear. I have started to bid home some new raid loot for him aswell as you can see. Dont mistake me for someone that is new on the class or on tanking over all pls. I have been raid tanking both HC and causal in the past and know if some class is weaker than the other. Just check the taunt boost up. i have parsed them all and its doesent matter when mobs hit so hard so you have to wear a shield and you have dps classes pumping out 500k-1mil dps. Then your 30% boost in taunts will do nothing even if it effects temp procs and so on. The only taunt that does something for us atm is Insolens since it proc when the mob hit you. And even that is miles behind to even compensate for the huge numbers dps classes are pumping out atm. With the right group im sitting at 100% hate gain but it doesent help much when dps is as high as they are.I dont want to focus on grouping and soloing since that is side tracking for the problem this class has. Solo and grouping they are fine. And dont need anything. So why fix something that is not broken? I can tell you right away that mine is more raid rdy than your zerk. You dont really need the new tiers master if you have the old masters. Its only 2 lvls. Sure they help it you want to optimize your toon but its not like its life or death if you dont get them. As i said im happy to buy them all and rewrite the thread if you wish.

Kaberu

08-26-2012, 12:42 PM

Admittedly, some of the problem with the DPS classes is that several of them refuse (or completely overlook) building any sort of hate reduction. I'm guessing this is why bards and chanters have become a necessary requirement to many groups and raids disproportionate to other classes. I have a feeling that if guild leaders started docking points from aggro thieves that the hate reduction stocks would shoot way up in value.

Rahatmattata

08-26-2012, 01:36 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont play the toon as main anymore and yes thats the toon. I have been tanking since 2005 and know that taunts does kinda much nothing for you. If you try and parse them out you see what i mean. And what do you run on your tank? Heroics? This is fixes for raiding on berserks. Nothing els. Heroics and solo is fine. The str line is a waste once you have the CC to counter the rest. Taunts are junk and always will be. And if you took your time to check that out you would know what i was talking about. Just check act what a taunt other that Insolens does for you. Yes i havent bothered to buy the new masters on him yet as i dont play him much at all atm. The rest is mastered and the upgrades are kinda meh anyway and would do nothing for the class.</blockquote>It's no wonder you have aggro problems, you need to be around 100% hate mod raid buffed + threat transfers. I have 44 hate mod self buffed which puts me around 96 raid buffed if I remember... Also use your taunts w t f...This totally belongs on the general fighter board.

Netty

08-26-2012, 01:56 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont play the toon as main anymore and yes thats the toon. I have been tanking since 2005 and know that taunts does kinda much nothing for you. If you try and parse them out you see what i mean. And what do you run on your tank? Heroics? This is fixes for raiding on berserks. Nothing els. Heroics and solo is fine. The str line is a waste once you have the CC to counter the rest. Taunts are junk and always will be. And if you took your time to check that out you would know what i was talking about. Just check act what a taunt other that Insolens does for you. Yes i havent bothered to buy the new masters on him yet as i dont play him much at all atm. The rest is mastered and the upgrades are kinda meh anyway and would do nothing for the class.</blockquote>It's no wonder you have aggro problems, you need to be around 100% hate mod raid buffed + threat transfers. I have 44 hate mod self buffed which puts me around 96 raid buffed if I remember... Also use your taunts w t f...This totally belongs on the general fighter board.</blockquote>Ppl like you are the reason this class dont get fixed. I have 100% hate gain raid buffed + hate transfer. DWing hate is mostly NP but i as soon as a shield goes on hate turns to sh*t. If you dont see this then you need better dps. Only reason to use them is if you have a coecer with the myth buff on and nothing els is up. I will only say it one time more. Im not new to this class or to tanking at all. CHECK YOUR ACT WHAT YOUR TAUNTS DO FOR YOU BEFOR YOU SPREAD BS ABOUT HOW GOOD THEY ARE. And read the post befor replying... With out a optimal set up the berserk class is lacking alot in hate and defens.

Netty

08-26-2012, 02:37 PM

And who said that i dident use the taunts? I never said i dident i said they are junk and increas them with 30% its still junk.

Kaberu

08-26-2012, 06:53 PM

It still seems like the issue is that, at least with the raid Berserkers I've checked out on EQ2U, they seem to use the Strength line for boosted taunts. So currently it looks like the one with an issue with taunts is the one that didn't take the Strength line. Can you at least see where we are coming from? There is no doubt that we need help with sword & board aggro however. We really do seem to take a huge dip compared to other tanks. Removing the timer on Reversal would seem to do a lot... at least reduce it a bunch!

Netty

08-26-2012, 07:54 PM

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>It still seems like the issue is that, at least with the raid Berserkers I've checked out on EQ2U, they seem to use the Strength line for boosted taunts. So currently it looks like the one with an issue with taunts is the one that didn't take the Strength line. Can you at least see where we are coming from? There is no doubt that we need help with sword & board aggro however. We really do seem to take a huge dip compared to other tanks. Removing the timer on Reversal would seem to do a lot... at least reduce it a bunch!</blockquote>Again do you use act? And what raiding berserk are you talking about? Think there is like 1 on splitpawn that still raid anything worth doing with a zerk. The rest is gone. Going fully defensiv with out a perfect set up built around the berserk and its not poss. Since we dont have the tools to Main tank (harder continent) we arnt in the main tank group. Im only gona say this one more time the 30% taunt increas is nothing. Check it out. Start using act and see how much they put out for you in TPS. The only taunt that works well is Insolens. And sword and board aggro is all im talking about. Using the Dstance on a zerk has been junk since forever since we dont get any striketough on AA or anything we need to reforge for it. Doing the SS raids works.. But when it comes to HM drunder and so on your hit rate will take a huge hit. All other tanks have something to balance this out. The only reason some ppl spec the str line is to get the hate gain increas. Brawlers can still DW so they have a alot better damage out put than a defensiv berserk. Crusaders well they do more dps aswell with sword and board and have hate tools that is awsome. Even guards have a hate transfer not to talk about better hit rates. Some of these changes do aply to guards aswell so thats why this thread is in the general fighter discussion section.

Regolas

08-26-2012, 11:43 PM

I won't comment on raid issues as my zerker is only just 90, but I have wondered recently why a similarly geared guardian, crusader or brawler often seems to have more HP than zerkers. I know HP isn't the be all and end all, but I've rarely seen a zerker with more than 60kHP yet I've seen monks and SKs with 70kHP.

Kaberu

08-27-2012, 12:49 AM

Of the raid guilds I can remember off hand (not home to log in and look), and only looking at geared Berserkers (50k-ish+ in HPs) there is: Gethigh of Dark Paradox, Toemax of Disruption, Killingtime and Macownya of Tempest and I can't really remember other raid guild names that still raid or even exist (like Strike)... but they all have 10 points to boost taunts by that 30% you say is useless. Even most if not all of the undergeared Berserkers in those guilds have that STR AA line. While I'm sure some Berserkers raid without it, there must be something to it when it comes to raiding... that's all I'm saying.

Netty

08-27-2012, 08:22 AM

<cite>Kaberu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of the raid guilds I can remember off hand (not home to log in and look), and only looking at geared Berserkers (50k-ish+ in HPs) there is: Gethigh of Dark Paradox, Toemax of Disruption, Killingtime and Macownya of Tempest and I can't really remember other raid guild names that still raid or even exist (like Strike)... but they all have 10 points to boost taunts by that 30% you say is useless. Even most if not all of the undergeared Berserkers in those guilds have that STR AA line. While I'm sure some Berserkers raid without it, there must be something to it when it comes to raiding... that's all I'm saying.</blockquote>Under geared as they need the CC. I have plenty CC for what im doing atm. I find it funny that you call me under geared yet you call ppl raiders that have alot worse gear or kinda much the same i have on mine? Im tiered of you now so i will just let this thread die out as all the other threads that has been put out about doing something for this class. You still havent awnsered my question. Have ytou checked how much taunts does for you in tps? No you havent and there for you still got no idea what you are talking about. I have been playing tank since 2005 im not new to this.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 01:08 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>DWing hate is mostly NP but i as soon as a shield goes on hate turns to sh*t. If you dont see this then you need better dps. Only reason to use them is if you have a coecer with the myth buff on and nothing els is up. I will only say it one time more. Im not new to this class or to tanking at all. CHECK YOUR ACT WHAT YOUR TAUNTS DO FOR YOU BEFOR YOU SPREAD BS ABOUT HOW GOOD THEY ARE.</blockquote>Taunts account for 20% of my threat dude; my 3 main taunts 14%. It all adds up. But clearly my guild's dps classes suck balls, and your character setup is titz. Just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but you haven't CHECKED YOUR ACT BEFORE YOU SPREAD BS ABOUT HOW BAD THEY ARE have you? Also, lol at using old teir CAs. Come on dude, really?Not saying zerks don't need help, but keep in mind... any boosts they make to the warrior tree buffs guards also.<img src="http://s15.postimage.org/52nfzmbtn/parse.jpg" />P.S. - dstance sword & board.

Kaberu

08-27-2012, 01:33 PM

Well... I guess the proof is in the pudding... er, parse.But I think Netty made the mistake of looking at too small a sample. If you look at any single ability, it often looks useless on it's own. Combine that with every other ability and look at the whole, then the parts start to make sense.

Netty

08-27-2012, 02:28 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>DWing hate is mostly NP but i as soon as a shield goes on hate turns to sh*t. If you dont see this then you need better dps. Only reason to use them is if you have a coecer with the myth buff on and nothing els is up. I will only say it one time more. Im not new to this class or to tanking at all. CHECK YOUR ACT WHAT YOUR TAUNTS DO FOR YOU BEFOR YOU SPREAD BS ABOUT HOW GOOD THEY ARE.</blockquote>Taunts account for 20% of my threat dude; my 3 main taunts 14%. It all adds up. But clearly my guild's dps classes suck balls, and your character setup is titz. Just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but you haven't CHECKED YOUR ACT BEFORE YOU SPREAD BS ABOUT HOW BAD THEY ARE have you? Also, lol at using old teir CAs. Come on dude, really?Not saying zerks don't need help, but keep in mind... any boosts they make to the warrior tree buffs guards also.<img src="http://s15.postimage.org/52nfzmbtn/parse.jpg" />P.S. - dstance sword & board.</blockquote>And you really think those small numbers matters if your dps is pumping out x5 the damage you do? The normal taunts suck end of story. Those numbers are nothing. And the changes to hate is for berserks <--------- Where did i say guards needed a boost in hate? They need more damage when wearing a shield and thats what they get when you aply my ideas over. You just keep making a fool out of yourself pls.

Faildozer

08-27-2012, 02:41 PM

taunts do literally NOTHING for your overall threat.. the only time they come in handy are when you cant attack the mob.. If you are using taunts for threat you are doing it wrong and would be better off using CA's which will give you much higher threat gains since DPS + hate mod and xfers are the only reason anybody is holding aggro nowadays.. People are speccing for hate gain in the warrior tree.. not the taunt amount increase..

Faildozer

08-27-2012, 02:58 PM

also back to the main topic.Raise their base ca damage by a significant amount (around brawler levels) and then adjust other aspects of the class. Zerkers are an outdated class that rely on outdated mechanics, they could do a massive overhaul and make the class fun and appealing using the concepts of some of the existing mechanics but with better implementation.Make berserk do something and grp berserk do a bit less but zerkers are now desirable. My recommendation, some stats, a better damage proc like the prestige damage proc and maybe a stacking buff that the longer you fight the more damage you do (2 stacking CB, stacks 10 times) just for the berserker of course. Adrenaline should be flat DR again, maybe drop the % but the heal on hit is lame and with battle frenzy you basically have 2 of the same abilities only 1 drains your power and there are already enough power drains in POW..Make overcap AE auto turn into flurry, will help with single target threat/dr.Give them a 1-3 charge stoneskin on a 2-3 min base timer to help mitigate some of the incoming damage from aoes.. Gut roar is garbage.Change some of their temps like rampage and juggernaut to actually do more for their dps and be noticable when activated.Anyway, just a few ideas that I think would make this class more viable and something more than just a powerleveling toon.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 03:02 PM

Post some proof so we and the game devs can make some progress fixing things, this theorycraft sht is old. The only tangible evidence in this thread suggests taunts are absolutely worth using. I've never been in a situation where people are sustaining 5x my dps, so I wouldn't know about that. My threat control in pugs, statics, groups, and raids is tight.<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>And the changes to hate is for berserks <--------- Where did i say guards needed a boost in hate?</blockquote>By boosting hate in the warrior tree, you also boost hate for guards... narf<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im tiered of you now so i will just let this thread die out as all the other threads that has been put out about doing something for this class</blockquote>Yea, ok.

Kaberu

08-27-2012, 03:14 PM

I just respecced to the STR AA myself and just the three basic taunts (Enrage, Mock, Raging Blow) accouted for 18% of my aggro generation in Shield/Dstance mode. With dual wielding and Recklessness on, those three basic taunts were still 10% of aggro generation just from the pure numbers (not including hate mod).Taunts are not a solo aggro generator so it's silly to see them and judge them as such. They are boosters to your aggro generation from damage, buffs, debuffs, etc.Considering I'm not bad at math, I'll continue to see them as useful...The breakdown for me (all mastered, in Dstance/shield):Raging Blow (Single): 22856 hate plus 9636 damage, usable every 6.5 seconds Mock (Single): Averaged 28978 hate, usable every 5.2 secondsEnrage (Encounter): Averaged 24937 hate, usable every 13.1 secondsIs there any CA that matches taunts for potential threat generation per second when specced for aggro generation (STR+others)? If there is, there can't be that many. My auto-attack beats it, but I need something to click between swings...And that's not even including the alternate taunts like Insolence, Experienced Insight, Adrenaline (with AA), etc.

Faildozer

08-27-2012, 03:20 PM

basically you just posted a thing where you were at 70k tps from just taunts and taunt effects.. 250-300k dps with 100% hate gain = ~500-600k tps and then add in your hate xfer and that is how you are holding threat.. not getting marginal gains from using taunts.. Plus more dps = mob is dead faster even with sirens stare the damage from other abilities makes them more valuable for dps >> the damage from using provoke or shout (if a guardian.)

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 05:53 PM

Everyone knows most of your threat comes from DPS, you're not teaching anyone anything new. My 2 taunts that actually do no damage parse 7.3k tps which is between 1 - 2% of my threat including dps and transfer. Include all of my other taunts and it's more like 6 - 7%.As I said, it all adds up. Saying it's not worth using them or putting AA into them is silly because it is no different than CAs. Most of my combat arts are individually 1% of my dps, but I still cast them and put AA into them to make them better. I threw my left over warrior tree AA into str hate which is 5 points.My taunts also have a long cast range compared to combat arts, which further adds to their desirability... as it is often a good option to snag an add or ripped mob with ranged auto + taunt, as opposed to dragging the named into the raid pile to rip an add with melee. Look at the whole picture. And I can assure you, I am not delaying auto attacks or cooldowns on more "valuable" CAs by casting those 2 taunts, and most of my taunts also do damage.

Faildozer

08-27-2012, 06:01 PM

1. If you used more CA's you would parse higher2. I dont consider the abilities with a taunt built into damage a taunt when making my casting order, i just view them as CA's. There is a reason that i do not have threat issues outside of the first 5 seconds and if i die and have to get threat back while still getting buffed etc. DPS > Taunts and if your threat is good then you should be pressing combat arts instead of taunts because like i said, less dps = mobs dying slower.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 06:06 PM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. I dont consider the abilities with a taunt built into damage a taunt when making my casting order, i just view them as CA's.</blockquote>You can view them as heals if you would like... our str AA views them as taunts and boosts them accordingly.Everything else was addressed in the last sentence of my last post.

Faildozer

08-27-2012, 06:08 PM

alright dude, most people will disagree with you, Im not going to waste my time trying to help you out but dont come here saying that people should spec for increased taunts when that isnt even the reason they spec for that in the str tree..

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 06:09 PM

I'll be sure to hit you up for pro-tips if I ever have problems tanking. Until then, I'll keep doin what I do.And I don't think you're someone to be giving AA advice Mr. extra 6 points in agi line defense.

Netty

08-27-2012, 06:12 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Post some proof so we and the game devs can make some progress fixing things, this theorycraft sht is old. The only tangible evidence in this thread suggests taunts are absolutely worth using. I've never been in a situation where people are sustaining 5x my dps, so I wouldn't know about that. My threat control in pugs, statics, groups, and raids is tight.<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>And the changes to hate is for berserks <--------- Where did i say guards needed a boost in hate?</blockquote>By boosting hate in the warrior tree, you also boost hate for guards... narf<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im tiered of you now so i will just let this thread die out as all the other threads that has been put out about doing something for this class</blockquote>Yea, ok.</blockquote>And where did i say in any post that the hate in the warrior tree need to be increased? You have to be drunk or something im not sure what you are talking about. I never said i dident use the taunts yet you claim i have. And you say that i said that the hate in the warrior tree need to be boosted. Really? read befor you post and stop making a fool out of yourself now. And you can say all you want that it adds up but the fact still stands that guards have more taunts than a berserker have. Increasing the normal taunts will do nothing if you having problem with aggro as hate and transfer as said is the way tanks hold aggro now.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 06:25 PM

You're just confusing yourself... Where did I say you said hate in the warrior tree needs to be increased? But since you took the liberty of calling yourself out, look at your OP silly. It's #1 in your list of sht to change.<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.The damage with a shield (defensiv) on both warriors is a joke vs ALL other tanks. Remove the 30sec down timer on reversal and make it proc on every avoided hit.3. Remove cancel by CA on dragon reflexes. All the other tanks - warriors have temp avoidance buffs with out it so it makes no sens that they should be punished for having it.10. Lower the reuse on unyielding will. The reuse on it is just to long.</blockquote><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not saying zerks don't need help, but keep in mind... any boosts they make to the warrior tree buffs guards also.</blockquote>Mama always said I'm not a very smart man... but I'm not seeing anything about threat in my comment.

Netty

08-27-2012, 06:41 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're just confusing yourself... Where did I say you said hate in the warrior tree needs to be increased? But since you took the liberty of calling yourself out, look at your OP silly. It's #1 in your list of sht to change.<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.The damage with a shield (defensiv) on both warriors is a joke vs ALL other tanks. Remove the 30sec down timer on reversal and make it proc on every avoided hit.3. Remove cancel by CA on dragon reflexes. All the other tanks - warriors have temp avoidance buffs with out it so it makes no sens that they should be punished for having it.10. Lower the reuse on unyielding will. The reuse on it is just to long.</blockquote><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not saying zerks don't need help, but keep in mind... any boosts they make to the warrior tree buffs guards also.</blockquote>Mama always said I'm not a very smart man... but I'm not seeing anything about threat in my comment.</blockquote>A damage shield and fixing 2 out of date Abilitys has what to do with boosting hate? So what if you can put a taunt proc on reversal just changei t if it gets to much but it wont. Im sure all other guardians would love to get those fixed maybe not you tho but im sure you are alone. Where you said it? By boosting hate in the warrior tree, you also boost hate for guards... narf. Your own words. If you still want to run around with broken out of date stuff when other tanks have better and more proper tools then do so. But i think the rest of the warrio comunity dont feel the same way you do.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 06:44 PM

Damage shields don't boost hate, and making changes in the warrior tree doesn't effect guards. Whatever you say cupcake.

Netty

08-27-2012, 06:58 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Damage shields don't boost hate, and making changes in the warrior tree doesn't effect guards. Whatever you say cupcake.</blockquote>Well keep making yourself look like a fool then. Im sure all other warriors enjoy to read your BS. Its will boost the dps and if you turn it that way your hate aswell. You just keep owning yourself its funny really. As i said if you dont want more dps with a shield and board well dont want that then? Im sure all other warriors agree with me. The hate i was talking about was adding a hate siphon on berserk. Even if guards can tank fine now doesent mean everyone they have works perfect. Monks are still more defensiv by abit and do more dps and have better utility. But hey your the man right? Since you have killed what you normal can do with a PU raid in SS? I see good going man! You just keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 07:07 PM

I don't understand most of your post, but if you would like to go over the semantics of my comment with a fine-toothed comb, then fine; you win if it makes you feel better. The point also completely sailed over your head.The only reason I mentioned it is because you propose changes that affect the guard class, and I feel the guard class doesn't need to be buffed/changed. You're looking way too hard into this. I'm all for you getting your class fixed, but I have an opinion about you asking for changes to the class I play.

Netty

08-27-2012, 07:16 PM

To end it im sure you are kinda much the only warrior that feels that way. But keep on pls. Its like trying to teach a mute to talk... Im done now in this thread.

Rahatmattata

08-27-2012, 07:37 PM

Well, I feel like the guard class already performs well and is fun and challenging to play. I would not like to see the class I play become too easy or too hard. There must be changes you can ask for that would bring zerkers in line while not effecting other classes and further throwing off the balance between other classes.

Faildozer

08-27-2012, 09:43 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll be sure to hit you up for pro-tips if I ever have problems tanking. Until then, I'll keep doin what I do.And I don't think you're someone to be giving AA advice Mr. extra 6 points in agi line defense.</blockquote>Haha considering your aa spec is a lot worse and your guild isnt clearing even skyshrine maybe you should. Ill give you a hint.. Grp moderate weakens the siphon from your shoulder target, you complain about needing range and yet you dont have 5pts in the range of rescue, you dont have any points into the duration increase of recapture, you have 2 extra points in parry yet you ignore the extra points in recovery and cast speed on your acceleration strike, you are 70 points over on crit for the content you are doing yet you still adorn and spec for it, you also red adorn for HP and hate gain even tho you should be at 100% you get an extra 4% max health for your group instead of 8% crit bonus and you are in EM skyshrine, you dont even need the extra hp in POW.. How could i have also missed the fact that you arent even at 600 MAI could go on but it really isnt necessary.. You have already showed you dont know what you are talking about and just taking 30 seconds to go over your character and check guild progress tells me everything i need to know about you and your tanking ability... well that and the fact that you were saying that people should use taunts to hold threat even tho they do the the same if not less than CA's and dont do damage..

Rahatmattata

08-28-2012, 05:01 AM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Grp moderate weakens the siphon from your shoulder target, you complain about needing range and yet you dont have 5pts in the range of rescue, you dont have any points into the duration increase of recapture, you have 2 extra points in parry yet you ignore the extra points in recovery and cast speed on your acceleration strike, you are 70 points over on crit for the content you are doing yet you still adorn and spec for it, you also red adorn for HP and hate gain even tho you should be at 100% you get an extra 4% max health for your group instead of 8% crit bonus and you are in EM skyshrine, you dont even need the extra hp in POW.. How could i have also missed the fact that you arent even at 600 MA</blockquote>Threat transfers before modifiers.I don't complain about taunt range, it's nice to have. 1 point in rescue is all I need for reuse cap, the range is fine.I assume by recapture you mean reinforcement... if I don't have aggro by the time reinforcment expires I have bigger problems than 5 more seconds will fix.My threat control is fine so I'd prefer parry (which raid mobs respect according to my avoidance reports, unlike lol defense), and I'm pretty sure casting speed and recovery don't increase with more AA, but even if it does with casting haste adorns I'm able to reliably get 3 CAs in per auto, 4 with defensive minded... a fraction more casting haste and recovery simply leaves extra dead spots in between autos.I need 390 crit for our progression mobs with crit standard flag and bard buffs I have enough self buffed crit to get there.I'm at 97.7% hate gain raid buffed.Threat control is fine, I'd rather trick out my group temp buff.I always need extra HP.Raid buffed in combat I hit 614 MA.I don't setup my character to hit caps self buffed, otherwise group buffs and procs are useless. I watch my stats in real time tanking in combat and setup my character accordingly. As for ragging on my guild, go for it. I'm in the best guild ww and you aren't going to hurt my feelings.

Boli32

08-28-2012, 10:35 AM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>5. The berserkers Singel target CA:s are lowest of all tank classes and need a boost. Other tanks get it so why not a berserkers.</blockquote>I really wish people will stop saying this; it is a misnomerLevel 1 single target ability (one of the few we can compare between the tank classes) - All lvl 91 M1 details taken from u.eq2wire.com<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1526089594" target="_blank">SHADOWKNIGHT: Painbringer</a>408-680 (+109) (+109) (+109)1.9% heal (+1.9) (+1.9) (+1.9)<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1211583562" target="_blank">GUARDIAN: Overpower</a>512-854<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1128605793" target="_blank">BESERKER: Rupture</a>341-1025<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2724512269" target="_blank">BRUISER: Pummel</a>379-1137<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2648992218" target="_blank">MONK: Waking Dragon</a>517-862<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2976328117" target="_blank">PALADIN: Faith Strike</a>512-8541.6% Heal You can work out the average hit for all these CAs:Shadowknight: 871Paladin: 683Guardian: 683Beserker: 683Monk: 689.5Bruiser: 720Shadowknights are by far the biggest - in TSO they had a 30% increase all all spells/CAs and this damage will be increased further due to the mythical proc (DOT Ticks increase in size by 30% every tick). I'm unsure why bruisers got a slight increase but monks, guards, pallys, and zerkers all average about the same.Zerkers have a lower "low end" but a higher "high end". This is true across all CAs between the warriors and was worked out a few years back the zerkers have a larger range" than guardians but they average the same.The difference in the CAs/Spells is worked outafterwards- Guardian AA enhance the damage of most of their AA; and have a prestige line meaning they are enhanced further.- Monks also have their CA damage increased via prestige/AA- Paladin CA damage is pretty pathetic but their spell damage is often AoE and their myth buff and Legionaries Wrath enhance spell damage significantly (based on their strength) so this skews perceptions.Beserker CAs are not generally "enhanced" as much as the other tanks via AA... and in contrast have often received buffs and effects which incraeased their autoattack damage (100% AoE auto for instance and +DPS/haste from beserk) so the percentage damage done by CAs in their parses is often much lower.So Beserker CAs are NOT "by far the smallest of all the tank classes"; the default CAs are actually identical to 3 other classes, they have just never been enhanced through AA as much. In fact in a single target CAs they will actually hit harder than Paladin CAs due to the increases base crit bonus mod of 1.5 vs 1.3I really hope that zerker fixes can be made but just ramping up all the CAs by 30% (ala TSO and shadowknights) is NOT the answer; perhaps an effect that under beserk your combat damage is increased slightly? or even under beserk you "proc" your strength value after every CA you cast.

Netty

08-28-2012, 11:26 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>5. The berserkers Singel target CA:s are lowest of all tank classes and need a boost. Other tanks get it so why not a berserkers.</blockquote>I really wish people will stop saying this; it is a misnomerLevel 1 single target ability (one of the few we can compare between the tank classes) - All lvl 91 M1 details taken from u.eq2wire.com<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1526089594" target="_blank">SHADOWKNIGHT: Painbringer</a>408-680 (+109) (+109) (+109)1.9% heal (+1.9) (+1.9) (+1.9)<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1211583562" target="_blank">GUARDIAN: Overpower</a>512-854<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1128605793" target="_blank">BESERKER: Rupture</a>341-1025<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2724512269" target="_blank">BRUISER: Pummel</a>379-1137<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2648992218" target="_blank">MONK: Waking Dragon</a>517-862<a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2976328117" target="_blank">PALADIN: Faith Strike</a>512-8541.6% HealYou can work out the average hit for all these CAs:Shadowknight: 871Paladin: 683Guardian: 683Beserker: 683Monk: 689.5Bruiser: 720Shadowknights are by far the biggest - in TSO they had a 30% increase all all spells/CAs and this damage will be increased further due to the mythical proc (DOT Ticks increase in size by 30% every tick). I'm unsure why bruisers got a slight increase but monks, guards, pallys, and zerkers all average about the same.Zerkers have a lower "low end" but a higher "high end". This is true across all CAs between the warriors and was worked out a few years back the zerkers have a larger range" than guardians but they average the same.The difference in the CAs/Spells is worked outafterwards- Guardian AA enhance the damage of most of their AA; and have a prestige line meaning they are enhanced further.- Monks also have their CA damage increased via prestige/AA- Paladin CA damage is pretty pathetic but their spell damage is often AoE and their myth buff and Legionaries Wrath enhance spell damage significantly (based on their strength) so this skews perceptions.Beserker CAs are not generally "enhanced" as much as the other tanks via AA... and in contrast have often received buffs and effects which incraeased their autoattack damage (100% AoE auto for instance and +DPS/haste from beserk) so the percentage damage done by CAs in their parses is often much lower.So Beserker CAs are NOT "by far the smallest of all the tank classes"; the default CAs are actually identical to 3 other classes, they have just never been enhanced through AA as much. In fact in a single target CAs they will actually hit harder than Paladin CAs due to the increases base crit bonus mod of 1.5 vs 1.3I really hope that zerker fixes can be made but just ramping up all the CAs by 30% (ala TSO and shadowknights) is NOT the answer; perhaps an effect that under beserk your combat damage is increased slightly? or even under beserk you "proc" your strength value after every CA you cast.</blockquote>So what you are saying is that if you have 3 lvl 1 classes and the base damage output by the CA is the same. But if one of the classes have an increas CA:s by 30% who will then hit hardest? ofcs you have to count in the AA increas. And you cant look at one base CA that all the tanks have. You know all tanks have diff CA:s/spells right? I dont care what you think the CB doesent matter as a crusader is SO much higher parsing atm vs a warrior. And yes i know alot of it has to do with temp procs like ET POTM and so on. aoe auto and dps/haste? I tought you did know what you where talking about but i guess im wrong. What tank class can not cap those atm? And i hope you do not mean that by increasing the berserk CA damage they will be like shadowknights in tso?

Ulrichvon

08-28-2012, 12:35 PM

I don't see much wrong with zerkers from a raiding standpoint.They do a phenomenal job at locking down 4-6 mobs, keeping aggro on them and staying up while a full raid melts them as fast as possible.To me, that is exactly what the class was built to do, and they do it very well. Whether or not enough content exists out there to let them shine enough is a topic for debate, but putting our zerker on boar adds or dagarn HM adds, or Hargold, or many other drunder HM scripts, he does a wonderful job at the task.Could he get a little more ae dps increase while doing it? Sure it would be nice to see, but isn't absolutely essential to the task since he's already successfully handling the required task.I can see some arguements for something to help the class in heroic content maybe, but all in all the class is actually very good at its specific role even if most players don't value it or recognize it.Certainly before I personally made the transition to higher end raiding, I didn't value this class. I can see why no EM raid force would think they are any good.

Rahatmattata

08-28-2012, 12:50 PM

I really don't think comparing the level 1 unmodified basic attack is a good comparison of tank CA damage at end game.

Boli32

08-28-2012, 01:00 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>So what you are saying is that if you have 3 lvl 1 classes and the base damage output by the CA is the same. But if one of the classes have an increas CA:s by 30% who will then hit hardest? ofcs you have to count in the AA increas. And you cant look at one base CA that all the tanks have. You know all tanks have diff CA:s/spells right? I dont care what you think the CB doesent matter as a crusader is SO much higher parsing atm vs a warrior. And yes i know alot of it has to do with temp procs like ET POTM and so on. aoe auto and dps/haste? I tought you did know what you where talking about but i guess im wrong. What tank class can not cap those atm? And i hope you do not mean that by increasing the berserk CA damage they will be like shadowknights in tso? </blockquote>My point was simple: the base value of the CAs is identical betwene monk/guard/paladin AND zerker That was between the "shared" ability (bascially the first damage ability all tanks gain at lvl 1)It was also worked that guardian and zerker CAs were identical in damage output; although zerkers had more of a range so hit harder and hit for less but they average out the same.Thus: zerkers do NOT have "the lowest CAs out of all the tank classes"... I've seen that repeated again and again and it is simply not accurate and will not give you the amunition in order to facilitate needed changes as the devs will simply say what I just did that "all" (well not SKs) fighter CAs are balanced between the classes, which they areWhat you need to say is rather: "Zerkers CAs are not enhanced as much as other fighters through AA/Prestiges leaving to a descrepancy in fighter damage output which is especially obvious against single targets".

Netty

08-28-2012, 01:06 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>So what you are saying is that if you have 3 lvl 1 classes and the base damage output by the CA is the same. But if one of the classes have an increas CA:s by 30% who will then hit hardest? ofcs you have to count in the AA increas. And you cant look at one base CA that all the tanks have. You know all tanks have diff CA:s/spells right? I dont care what you think the CB doesent matter as a crusader is SO much higher parsing atm vs a warrior. And yes i know alot of it has to do with temp procs like ET POTM and so on. aoe auto and dps/haste? I tought you did know what you where talking about but i guess im wrong. What tank class can not cap those atm? And i hope you do not mean that by increasing the berserk CA damage they will be like shadowknights in tso? </blockquote>My point was simple: the base value of the CAs is identical betwene monk/guard/paladin AND zerker That was between the "shared" ability (bascially the first damage ability all tanks gain at lvl 1)It was also worked that guardian and zerker CAs were identical in damage output; although zerkers had more of a range so hit harder and hit for less but they average out the same.Thus: zerkers do NOT have "the lowest CAs out of all the tank classes"... I've seen that repeated again and again and it is simply not accurate and will not give you the amunition in order to facilitate needed changes as the devs will simply say what I just did that "all" (well not SKs) fighter CAs are balanced between the classes, which they areWhat you need to say is rather: "Zerkers CAs are not enhanced as much as other fighters through AA/Prestiges leaving to a descrepancy in fighter damage output which is especially obvious against single targets".</blockquote>But as i said boli who cares what your base is when some can increas them by AA?

Netty

08-28-2012, 01:08 PM

<cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see much wrong with zerkers from a raiding standpoint.They do a phenomenal job at locking down 4-6 mobs, keeping aggro on them and staying up while a full raid melts them as fast as possible.To me, that is exactly what the class was built to do, and they do it very well. Whether or not enough content exists out there to let them shine enough is a topic for debate, but putting our zerker on boar adds or dagarn HM adds, or Hargold, or many other drunder HM scripts, he does a wonderful job at the task.Could he get a little more ae dps increase while doing it? Sure it would be nice to see, but isn't absolutely essential to the task since he's already successfully handling the required task.I can see some arguements for something to help the class in heroic content maybe, but all in all the class is actually very good at its specific role even if most players don't value it or recognize it.Certainly before I personally made the transition to higher end raiding, I didn't value this class. I can see why no EM raid force would think they are any good.</blockquote>Yes they can but all the other tanks can do that just as well and tank ST mobs alot better. Not to talk about have better dps output better group utility and so on. No one has said that zerks can lock down some adds but really all tanks can... So there is no need to use a berserker those fights are rare. And some figths in Drunder HM its just plain better using a crusaders since they can survive better and do more dps on the adds.

Ulrichvon

08-28-2012, 01:53 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes they can but all the other tanks can do that just as well and tank ST mobs alot better. Not to talk about have better dps output better group utility and so on. No one has said that zerks can lock down some adds but really all tanks can... So there is no need to use a berserker those fights are rare. And some figths in Drunder HM its just plain better using a crusaders since they can survive better and do more dps on the adds.</blockquote>I have to disagree here, the others don't do it as well. When we have to stick a guard or monk on these mobs they might get one round of them without issue, but we have far more frequent issues with them not being able to lock down all adds thru a burn thru every cycle the adds come.Sure, yes we've killed these things with them tanking adds, but its far more reliable putting a class that excels at ae situations on the task. Out of 10 pulls, if we've got a ST tank on these adds, we probably first pull win 40-50% of them. If we put our zerker on the task we first pull 90% or better.On the same token, we've had the zerker ST tank in a pinch, and we've killed mobs that are ST focused, but same thing is true, it takes more effort, more pulls, and more coordination to make it work.I'd like to see the class get something that increases dps more significantly with the more mobs engaged (to a hard limit of course), just cause I think it would make the class more fun. I do not however think we need to give all tools to all tanks equally.I can't tell you how many zerkers tell me they can't tank some ST mob, but the same zerkers are spec'd to PC.

Faildozer

08-28-2012, 01:54 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Grp moderate weakens the siphon from your shoulder target, you complain about needing range and yet you dont have 5pts in the range of rescue, you dont have any points into the duration increase of recapture, you have 2 extra points in parry yet you ignore the extra points in recovery and cast speed on your acceleration strike, you are 70 points over on crit for the content you are doing yet you still adorn and spec for it, you also red adorn for HP and hate gain even tho you should be at 100% you get an extra 4% max health for your group instead of 8% crit bonus and you are in EM skyshrine, you dont even need the extra hp in POW.. How could i have also missed the fact that you arent even at 600 MA</blockquote>Threat transfers before modifiers.I don't complain about taunt range, it's nice to have. 1 point in rescue is all I need for reuse cap, the range is fine.I assume by recapture you mean reinforcement... if I don't have aggro by the time reinforcment expires I have bigger problems than 5 more seconds will fix.My threat control is fine so I'd prefer parry (which raid mobs respect according to my avoidance reports, unlike lol defense), and I'm pretty sure casting speed and recovery don't increase with more AA, but even if it does with casting haste adorns I'm able to reliably get 3 CAs in per auto, 4 with defensive minded... a fraction more casting haste and recovery simply leaves extra dead spots in between autos.I need 390 crit for our progression mobs with crit standard flag and bard buffs I have enough self buffed crit to get there.I'm at 97.7% hate gain raid buffed.Threat control is fine, I'd rather trick out my group temp buff.I always need extra HP.Raid buffed in combat I hit 614 MA.I don't setup my character to hit caps self buffed, otherwise group buffs and procs are useless. I watch my stats in real time tanking in combat and setup my character accordingly. As for ragging on my guild, go for it. I'm in the best guild ww and you aren't going to hurt my feelings.</blockquote>Nope, mod then xfer..You said you prefered using taunts because of their range if they are in a grp of people you are trying to get them out.. why not use rescue instead of trying ot taunt them back..i did mean reinforce and there are lots of reasons to have extra duration especially in drunder hm and pow where grps of mobs all memwipe at different times.. Another reason to have the final rank of enhance: reinforce to make it proc off of taunts for when you cant hit the mob but need to rescue it back, like when you have dragoons up..more aa does improve recovery and cast, you are relying on defensive minded to be up to get that and well, its not up all the time.. 4 ca's > 3.. also you are correct about parry > defense but at the time i specced i would rather have had higher avoidance in place of a minute increase to an aoe that doesnt hit hard to begin with... I may actually spec out of it now that surviv is a non issue in POW but at the time with on hit damage effects (pre nerf) the small increase in avoid was worth more to me than the small increase on an already small aoe.I believe you need 300 or 320 crit for all of EM Skyshrine which you havent even cleared yet according to flames and guildprogress.. can readdorn for more dps or survivability even tho you shouldnt need any since.. its em skyshrine..Its not even about threat control.. its about dps.. again no aoes in SS even hit hard, the only big damage people will take are fail conditions which can all be aoe blocked or jousted or a script is being messed up.. More hp does less for your raid than 8cb does..No, you dont need extra hp especially when you could be adorning for crit bonus or other dps stats.. Only hp adorn you should have are on your hat..You specify in combat.. are you relying on procs for MA or are you somehow getting BC from a dirge? Im guessing you are relying on procs and only getting that extra swing 33% of the time (20s uptime in the course of 1 min) you are taking a HUGE loss in dps. You only need to get your MA to i believe 585 to hit 600 with just a dirge in grp.. to ensure that you are getting 100% uptime on your MA.. that and you shouldnt be taking BC from your ranger if that is what you are doing... There shouldnt be any procs that you are relying on to hit caps... Procs are bonus and thats it and 99% of the procs in this game that dont include Crit Bonus or potency are terrible and you are not getting the full uptime of the stat that you should be capping..Im glad for you and your guild but clearly your thought process isnt one that a lot of people that do more content and more dps use.. That and saying you should use taunts instead of CA's even if they give the same amount of threat (only a few) ca's actually do more damage to the mob.

Rahatmattata

08-28-2012, 05:10 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What you need to say is rather: "Zerkers CAs are not enhanced as much as other fighters through AA/Prestiges leaving to a descrepancy in fighter damage output which is especially obvious against single targets".</blockquote>Isn't that a fancy verbose way of saying zerker CAs do less damage than other fighters?

Rahatmattata

08-28-2012, 05:55 PM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>...</blockquote>You are wrong about threat transfers.I would rather put my points in something other than increasing the range of rescue.I would rather put my points in something other than increasing the duration of reinforcement. The proc on taunt is unnecessary.I'm not seeing 2 extra points in accel strike allowing me to get in 4 CAs per auto since I'm just fast enough to get in 3, but I'll check it out later.We are pulling HM mobs in UD and Drunder, and I believe Sev requires 390. In any case, I need 390 CC for what we do. Don't worry, I don't waste resources in getting more crit than I need.I was spec'd for CB in DoV tree for a long time and honestly I don't notice a diff in my dps since dropping it. I'd rather put those points in my group temp. More hp is always useful, we are going to have to disagree here... but that's fine because you can spec your char however you want.I'm set up for pure tank defense which is why I play a guard in the first place. My satisfaction in this game comes from trying to be the hardest tank to kill as possible. My priorities involve holding aggro, surviving, and keeping other players alive in that order. The role of dps is among my priorites right above healing. If my guild isn't happy with my dps they can tell me or replace me.Ranger gets BC, I let a proc (which is almost always up) buff me to cap. If I buff to cap, then procs might as well not even exist. Self buffing to 600 MA will do very little for my dps since I'm over cap in raid anyway. If I do anything to increase my dps, it will be unforging haste on my gear to get some flurry back. Next would be unforging enough MA to be over 600 for that 10% of the time I only have 585.I've never said I use taunts instead of CAs, in fact I said the opposite. I'm well aware dps > taunts. Only thing I've said regarding taunts is they are worth using, and gave an example of how they can be useful outside of simply adding a little threat.I have extensively tweaked my character trying many different setups, and spent hours testing and weighing the pros and cons of even the most trivial AA points. My character may be a couple months old, but I have been playing a guard since KoS and raid tanking and off tanking as a guard since RoK. I do not simply read a sticky and setup my char accordingly. I watch my stats in combat, think for myself, and setup my character targetted for the content I do with the raid setup I play with in the roles I play. I am very happy with my setup and my character does everything me and my guild need it to. Every AA was spent with careful consideration, every adornment is on my gear for a reason. My character setup is constantly evolving and improving as gear changes and the content I play changes. I may do things differently than you, but I care about my character's performance just as much as you care about yours.

Netty

08-28-2012, 06:28 PM

<cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes they can but all the other tanks can do that just as well and tank ST mobs alot better. Not to talk about have better dps output better group utility and so on. No one has said that zerks can lock down some adds but really all tanks can... So there is no need to use a berserker those fights are rare. And some figths in Drunder HM its just plain better using a crusaders since they can survive better and do more dps on the adds.</blockquote>I have to disagree here, the others don't do it as well. When we have to stick a guard or monk on these mobs they might get one round of them without issue, but we have far more frequent issues with them not being able to lock down all adds thru a burn thru every cycle the adds come.Sure, yes we've killed these things with them tanking adds, but its far more reliable putting a class that excels at ae situations on the task. Out of 10 pulls, if we've got a ST tank on these adds, we probably first pull win 40-50% of them. If we put our zerker on the task we first pull 90% or better.On the same token, we've had the zerker ST tank in a pinch, and we've killed mobs that are ST focused, but same thing is true, it takes more effort, more pulls, and more coordination to make it work.I'd like to see the class get something that increases dps more significantly with the more mobs engaged (to a hard limit of course), just cause I think it would make the class more fun. I do not however think we need to give all tools to all tanks equally.I can't tell you how many zerkers tell me they can't tank some ST mob, but the same zerkers are spec'd to PC.</blockquote>So with other words you are saying that all other berserker suck and you are awsome? Im not sure what kind of mobs you are tanking but a zerk is not the best tank to lock down adds with. Its funny that you take in 2 singel target tanks to compare with. They both can do it aswell. Our monk tank swarms of adds with out problem.Tanks should be able to tank everything end of story. And what of my ideas will make berserker as good as MT as a guard? it wont. But it will make them better on ST mobs aswell and work abit more inline with the other aoe tanks.You can keep saying all you want that you think zerks are fine. But then you have clearly never tanked on one of the other tanks. You are free to think what ever you want tho.

Ulrichvon

08-28-2012, 07:10 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can keep saying all you want that you think zerks are fine. But then you have clearly never tanked on one of the other tanks. You are free to think what ever you want tho.</blockquote>I've tanked on pretty much everything but a bruiser, Most of my time is on Guard/Monk, but I have a lot of time on SK/Zerk/Pal.We can put our monk on swarm adds, and when his dps short terms are up he does fairly well, when the next set comes, its a crap shoot if he'll hold them all vs a full burn, or if one or two peel. Whereas the zerker or sk will almost never lose agro in the same situation.As I said before, in a pinch we've had the other classes in the role their not best suited for, and still won, but its signifcantly harder with a less guaranteed success rate.I'll 100% agree with you there is absolutely no need for 'ae tanks' before HM raiding though. But I still think this is more of a content issue than a class issue.

Faildozer

08-28-2012, 08:57 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>...</blockquote>You are wrong about threat transfers.I would rather put my points in something other than increasing the range of rescue.I would rather put my points in something other than increasing the duration of reinforcement. The proc on taunt is unnecessary.I'm not seeing 2 extra points in accel strike allowing me to get in 4 CAs per auto since I'm just fast enough to get in 3, but I'll check it out later.We are pulling HM mobs in UD and Drunder, and I believe Sev requires 390. In any case, I need 390 CC for what we do. Don't worry, I don't waste resources in getting more crit than I need.I was spec'd for CB in DoV tree for a long time and honestly I don't notice a diff in my dps since dropping it. I'd rather put those points in my group temp. More hp is always useful, we are going to have to disagree here... but that's fine because you can spec your char however you want.I'm set up for pure tank defense which is why I play a guard in the first place. My satisfaction in this game comes from trying to be the hardest tank to kill as possible. My priorities involve holding aggro, surviving, and keeping other players alive in that order. The role of dps is among my priorites right above healing. If my guild isn't happy with my dps they can tell me or replace me.Ranger gets BC, I let a proc (which is almost always up) buff me to cap. If I buff to cap, then procs might as well not even exist. Self buffing to 600 MA will do very little for my dps since I'm over cap in raid anyway. If I do anything to increase my dps, it will be unforging haste on my gear to get some flurry back. Next would be unforging enough MA to be over 600 for that 10% of the time I only have 585.I've never said I use taunts instead of CAs, in fact I said the opposite. I'm well aware dps > taunts. Only thing I've said regarding taunts is they are worth using, and gave an example of how they can be useful outside of simply adding a little threat.I have extensively tweaked my character trying many different setups, and spent hours testing and weighing the pros and cons of even the most trivial AA points. My character may be a couple months old, but I have been playing a guard since KoS and raid tanking and off tanking as a guard since RoK. I do not simply read a sticky and setup my char accordingly. I watch my stats in combat, think for myself, and setup my character targetted for the content I do with the raid setup I play with in the roles I play. I am very happy with my setup and my character does everything me and my guild need it to. Every AA was spent with careful consideration, every adornment is on my gear for a reason. My character setup is constantly evolving and improving as gear changes and the content I play changes. I may do things differently than you, but I care about my character's performance just as much as you care about yours.</blockquote>It is easy to test but mods apply before xfers... Not sure where you are getting your information that it is the other way around.Mkay you wont find much better stuff to put your points in tho..Your call, having tanked every single mob in the game I would say the reinforce duration is well worth the points spent..If you are in fact pulling HM mobs in SS then yeah the number 390, em skyshrine (which is shows you guys not having completed, may want to check that) and drunder only require 300-320..You absolutely will see a dps increase in 8% cb, for the content you are working on you will almost never see a gain from having 4% more max health unless your grp is faceplanting and that is a healer issue.. You can spec your char however you want but certain ways are better and certain things are more fluff than actually benefiting your group and your raid.DPS is a necessary byproduct of tanking and in turn helps your raid by killing stuff faster and ensuring you are holding threat. I am not sure why you would straight up neglect dps when it helps your raid and your own threat.. My dps on progression and tougher mobs is far from amazing but it doesnt mean im still not trying and helping the raid out.. The faster the mob dies the less i have to worry about timing my stoneskins, gyb, sentry watch, which rescue i need to use next, etc... It is the same thing as healers who refuse to dps and just heal when most healers outside of the MT grp have time in between aoes and adds spawning that is wasted if they arent dps'ing and it is the difference between a fight lasting 4 mins and 5 mins..You are losing out on an extra melee swing 66% of the time.. The proc on your weapon only has a 20 second uptime in the span of 1 minute.. Just raise your MA by 20% and you dont have to rely on the proc.. It may become next to worthelss (still gives dps and haste) but I would rather have just another worthless proc (again all but a few procs are worthless) than rely on one to have 600ma 100% of the time...The fact that taunts do about the same TPS as only a few CA's while not doing any of the dps is exactly why taunts suck.. They arent worth using unless its on a fight where i cant dmg the mob or need to rescue mobs back using reinforce without dps'ing.. You can play your character however you want but arguing that taunts are fine when they are anything but is kinda silly and arguing just for the sake of it.

Landiin

08-28-2012, 11:52 PM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>...</blockquote>You are wrong about threat transfers....</blockquote>It is easy to test but mods apply before xfers... Not sure where you are getting your information that it is the other way around.....</blockquote>Transfer values are taken before any mod is applied. IIRC it use to be the other way but they changed it a while back. I can't find the post where it was stated by a red name (Rothgar maybe). You know the forums softwar beign so good and all IDK why I couldn't find it. You can go on thinking its the other way but you'ed be wrong.

Faildozer

08-28-2012, 11:56 PM

ill test it after raid but unless it was changed SF or later it used to be mods before xfer

Landiin

08-29-2012, 12:07 AM

I agree it did use to be the other way. I can't recall when it changed to save my life though. I kind of want to say when they made all the changes to guards to bring them more inline or maybe it was when they attempted the fighter revamp the 1st time. Shoot it might of been when the bumped the cap up to 100% hate mode. I do know it was changed to help with aggro control though.

Faildozer

08-29-2012, 12:44 AM

well from just some basic testing it looks like they did change it so mods before xfer. So my bad on that one.

Landiin

08-29-2012, 04:25 AM

It was an easy one to miss if you wasn't involved in all the testing that was going on at the time. It could of not even been posted in a public forum and that could be one reason I can't find it.

Rahatmattata

08-29-2012, 12:23 PM

i thought it's always been that way; i remember when training dummies came out there was a thread on flames guard board testing moderate on assassins. pretty sure dravngr1 or w/e was involved. anyway... i put xfer and mod on our ranger w np.

Netty

08-29-2012, 08:49 PM

<cite>Ulrichvon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can keep saying all you want that you think zerks are fine. But then you have clearly never tanked on one of the other tanks. You are free to think what ever you want tho.</blockquote>I've tanked on pretty much everything but a bruiser, Most of my time is on Guard/Monk, but I have a lot of time on SK/Zerk/Pal.We can put our monk on swarm adds, and when his dps short terms are up he does fairly well, when the next set comes, its a crap shoot if he'll hold them all vs a full burn, or if one or two peel. Whereas the zerker or sk will almost never lose agro in the same situation.As I said before, in a pinch we've had the other classes in the role their not best suited for, and still won, but its signifcantly harder with a less guaranteed success rate.I'll 100% agree with you there is absolutely no need for 'ae tanks' before HM raiding though. But I still think this is more of a content issue than a class issue.</blockquote>Then explain what zerkers have that make them so good on that? Monk aoes will be refreshed untill the adds despawn so that is not an issue. Im not sure how you do the fight we just ignore the adds and burn the named. Again im not saying zerks cant handle adds well i just dont agree with you that they are best at it or even stong at it. Im sure all other tanks can do it. And all aoe tanks do it even better.