Really?

[Lethlian]

<p><span><span style="color: #d2c5a9;"> </span><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">PVP UPDATES</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><em><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">General</span></span></em></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Critbonus is now slightly less effective in PVP combat.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Okay so it wasn't bad enough that healers and casters are already favored by the far superior conversion that PVP potency is over PVP crit bonus, but now with tomorrows update your going to increase <em>all healers, heals again </em>and then <strong>nerf Crit Bonus?</strong></span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Seriously what are you doing?, you just nullified the past update that made healers more killable to now lowering all crit bonus driven classes (tanks / scouts) and increaseing heals? <em>Sweet now its back to taking 6 to 12 toons to kill a healer again.</em> Have you even been looking at the parse healers are throwing up right now with the current <em>so called nerf?</em> its still ridiculously <strong>common</strong> to see healers with 3 to 8 mil heal parses and the highest dpser(s) being 2 to 6 mil (which are more far and few inbetween compared to healers btw)</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">If anything you needed to increase the crit bonus conversion.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Whatever guys GG</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">-Lethlian</span></span></p></span></p>

[nazer]

<p>Well if it makes you feel any better the are lowering Spiritual Leadership in Shamans which will have quite an impact. Have no fear im sure they will bring out the nerf bat to healers again, then you wont see them at all in bgs. Wont that be fun?</p>

[Tantrasil]

<p>Yeah im disappointed in what they listened to from other players. They didnt just increase the heals for priests by the way. Good luck trying to kill anyone as a swash/brig, even guards and zerks got a dmg increase. Lets see how many people stop playing after this update.</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah im disappointed in what they listened to from other players. They didnt just increase the heals for priests by the way. Good luck trying to kill anyone as a swash/brig, even guards and zerks got a dmg increase. Lets see how many people stop playing after this update.</p></blockquote><p>Must admit the berserker thing was a surprise to me, they never really struck me as being in need of more damage at all.</p>

[Tantrasil]

<p>We wont know the damage until people actually play. Unfortunately i cant today so keep me updated on how bad it is. They boosted heals on classes i didnt even know had heals. Shows how bad i am hahaha</p>

[MageLady]

<p><cite>Lethlian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #d2c5a9;"> </span><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Lethlian</span></span></p></span></p></blockquote><p>Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p>Reading the latest couple updates i get a weird feeling....are they just randomly changing stats and mechanics without any idea why ?</p><p>Boost CA dmg of some mellee classes, and then nerf CB.</p><p>Tbh im not worried about autoattack hits lately, but the fact scout CA's really hurt bad, and coupled with the stun/stifle/daze etc CC-arsenal many have, and AE autoattack still having full effect in pvp, you end up seing Beastlords annihilate half a grp in 3 sec and 4 CA's.or swashies or brigs</p><p>cheap shot - dispatch - cornered - double up = dead target</p><p>But at 92 things are at least somewhat balanced, while the 30-89 BG's are a complete mess and scouts are without question dominating the dps output over casters. With the infamous enfant terrible Beastlord. Just outright overpowered.</p><p>Maybe in full T3 pvp gear things even out more. altho if everyone get 20% dmg/heal boost from lethality and 20% more protection from toughness, aren't we back at Start and can just stay in PVE gear ? Or are the blue adorns seriously supposed to bring some dynamic into the whole issue ? Not like i ever felt like coughing up 500 (!!) tokens for one adorns that might just improve my overall performance by...what... 0.1% ?</p>

[Tantrasil]

<p><cite>Did you even read the patchnotes? Also dont say all scouts because brigands and swashbucklers actually have to melee unlike the others. 75% of the time its almost insta-death from ranged classes. Then on some casters we finally get close and they dodge/parry/miss for most attacks and get blown up.MageLady wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethlian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #d2c5a9;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Lethlian</span></span></p></blockquote><p>Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.</p></blockquote>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Did you even read the patchnotes? Also dont say all scouts because brigands and swashbucklers actually have to melee unlike the others. 75% of the time its almost insta-death from ranged classes. Then on some casters we finally get close and they dodge/parry/miss for most attacks and get blown up.MageLady wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethlian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #d2c5a9;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Lethlian</span></span></p></blockquote><p>Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>lol, you beat me to it.  Rogues are absolutely not comparable to predators right now, and thats before you even get to bards.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah im disappointed in what they listened to from other players. They didnt just increase the heals for priests by the way. Good luck trying to kill anyone as a swash/brig, even guards and zerks got a dmg increase. Lets see how many people stop playing after this update.</p></blockquote><p>Whatever.</p><p>Move healer or tank away from each other, and they die.  The only time healers are hard to kill is when you can't keep a target on them.</p>

[Twyxx]

<p><cite>Lethlian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #d2c5a9;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">PVP UPDATES</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><em><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">General</span></span></em></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Critbonus is now slightly less effective in PVP combat.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Think we need to review our adverbs.  A 1/3 reduction is a lot more significant of a hit than slightly would suggest.  I don't understand this move.</span></span></p>

[Gealaen_Gaiamancer]

<p style="text-align: justify;">Yes, really.  Apparently.</p><p style="text-align: justify;"> </p><p style="text-align: justify;">Wouldn't a decrease of CB reduce the ranged one/two shots a bit?  Well, not from sorcs, of course.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">And to the earlier post about scouts fighting out of paper bags ... in BG, doesn't "Scout" = "Predator"?  You really don't see too many non-Predator Scouts in the BGs.  Yes, that's a joke, but so is the comparative effectiveness of certain classes--from a strict "killing people" point of view/straight DPS.</p>

[Ferunnia]

<p>To be honest, if shadowstep+assassinatex2 from an assassin doesn't kill me right off, they give me a lot less trouble than brigs/swashies. Rangers seem to do good sustained dps, but really don't burn me down like the rogues. Healing through someone hitting you is easy, healing through a good debuff class that can chain stun/stifle/daze/knockback you is annoying as all get out. Damage output from both scouts and mages seems comparable when they are equally geared and skilled. The healing buff was nice for furies, at least...I'm sorry, but we're by far the squishiest healer in bgs atm. And at 300 cb, I'm only at 29% cb in bgs anyways...if you lower that by a third, onoez, 20% cb, which still isn't much of anything. I know this, when everyone is equally griping, it usually means things are a challenge for everyone. From the standpoint of a healer watching and trying to keep others alive in bg matches, Sorcerors are the most annoying dps class to kill because you essentially kill them twice to get them dead. I'm guessing everyone here is mad because they aren't 100% unstoppable in matches, and can't gank away at will. Not really sure, but things are actually getting closer and closer to balance...except zerkers now being a bit OP tbh. they are already hard to kill usually, unless a sorceror gets in a couple of lucky uninterrupted hits.</p><p>Atan has the best point so far, btw. I can heal for millions with a good tank keeping things from killing me, and dpsers killing off ranged dps before they can get me down, but take away all that, and any decent player that gets the jump on me can probably unload and kill me.</p><p>Elhonnax - Fury of Moloko Vellocet, Guk</p>

[Balrok]

<p>You're all hanging/clinging on to autoattack stats.  Let go of Crit Bonus and focus on potency/STR/AGI/WIS/ability modifier to increase your Combat Abilities.  You'll only crit maybe 50% of the time anyway.  You all should desire a game that focuses on a player "taking action" to heal or damage another and not crave your auto attacking ability.... it's what ruined this PvP system to begin with.</p><p>Accept it's a better game without auto attack damage in PvP and get your combat abilities increased.  This is what the original game thru EoF was built around and it was great!</p><p>Devs are listening and will adjust combat abilities and spells if they agree.  They're increasing and decreasing them in hopes of balance.  Just keep working with them.. I mean him.</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Exur@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're all hanging/clinging on to autoattack stats.  Let go of Crit Bonus and focus on potency/STR/AGI/WIS/ability modifier to increase your Combat Abilities.  You'll only crit maybe 50% of the time anyway.  You all should desire a game that focuses on a player "taking action" to heal or damage another and not crave your auto attacking ability.... it's what ruined this PvP system to begin with.</p><p>Accept it's a better game without auto attack damage in PvP and get your combat abilities increased.  This is what the original game thru EoF was built around and it was great!</p><p>Devs are listening and will adjust combat abilities and spells if they agree.  They're increasing and decreasing them in hopes of balance.  Just keep working with them.. I mean him.</p></blockquote><p>All he has to do is fix the broken swashbuckler abilities and everything will be fine and dandy.</p>

[Lethlian]

<p><cite>MageLady wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethlian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #d2c5a9;"> </span><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Good to see scouts won't be killing anything but old wet paper bags.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Lethlian</span></span></p></span></p></blockquote><p>Seriously?  What game have you been playing?  Scouts are so OP now they 1-shot the whole zone.  All game parses you can see a BL, Ranger, Assassin easily have 45+ kill shots with non-scout classes far below that mark.  The game is so unenjoyable after these updates for every class except scout.  I hate playing my healer, tank or mages in BG now.  Thanks SOE for once again breaking BG and killing the game.</p></blockquote><p>My *grievance* wasn't about my ability to <strong>NOT</strong> 1 - shot the whole zone, nor gank at will, nor be unstop-able. I'm basing my objection on my <em>observations</em> from what I"ve seen prior to this update and now presently with it in game in regards to averages of parses amongst casters and melee. The majority of the time the higher tier dpser(s) in bgs are the casters (albiet there are a few resourceful scouts who can compete) but <em>I'm more concened about averages (consistency),</em> because averages are what end up being the tall tale to how the game is actually working.</p><p>Now looking back at it, I do realize that I failed to mention that my TS post was based upon being level 92 PVP. So I can't speak for that 30 to 89 bracket...</p><p><em>Also to be noted I"m not concerned about auto attack stats</em>...why people are assuming this when I clearly did not bring it up is beyond me. I'm concerned about CB because it does in fact have allot to do with my CA's hitting when they do crit. Now I know it seems some scout classes are more capable of bigger hits based off of CA's (but you have to account that those hits come from having to engage in a uninterrupted chain to complete)... but when you included swashbucklers, brigands, dirges, and troubadors they do not have any terribly big hitting CA's or combinations...even Assassins CA's are low and I haven't noticed many Sins doing all that great...Of course I'm stating all this based on my observations, you peeps need to calm down about my statements seemingly being law.</p><p>Crit Bonus may not neccesarily be as of a big deal for casters, but for all scouts its an absolute must based on how present tense game mechanics work in everquest 2.</p><p>My two cents.</p><p>Respectfully,</p><p>Lethlian</p>

[Kode Black]

<p>Healers need to be able to heal the oppositions damage. Considering each group should have 1 or 2 healers, a adequately equipped healer should have an equal chance to heal damage from an adequately equipped group of 3 to 5 people. This should be the absolute limit to healing though... And the truth is, if a group cant kill their opponent, it comes down to a couple factors, not the strength of healers individually...</p><p>You suck... either your gear is not adequate to beat the healer in question, or your skill is not adequate. Learn to play, you arent going to dps a healer down without 3 to 4 people. Thats how it should be, if not one of you is smart enough to get past their temp defenses, and interrupt/stifle/stun them down, then you lose.</p><p>And potentially, if you cant kill your opponent, lets not forget the groups are currently unbalanced. 3 healers in a group shouldnt happen... 4 is rediculous. Dont vote to nerf healers because something else is broken.</p><p>The healer changes were positive in my opinion... man up and play skillfully, stop trying to dps burn your healers and do it right.</p><p>The nerf on healers had them quitting. Why? Because why play a healer when your heals arent adequate?</p>

[Tantrasil]

<p>I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>There's a lot of discussion about one thing or the other that I don't really have good responses or good comments on, but there is one extremely important thing that I feel is being overlooked in this discussion.</p><p>Stats such as crit bonus or any other statistic that scales a lot based on your character's level or gear amount should have a somewhat lesser effect in BGs because the level range is so wide in the lower BGs and the quality of gear disparity is quite large at 92.  You could make an argument that level 92 characters without the proper gear don't belong in 92 BGs, but when level 30s with barely any crit, let alone crit bonus, are competing with level 80+ characters with great stats, the stats need to have a lesser impact to keep pvp more skill based as is intented by the Devs.</p><p>Once the balance is found within these overall stats, then the focus becomes on adjusting class or archetype balance issues, but the first step is ultimately appropriately balancing stats.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>i've all ready made peace with the fact that casters will do more damage than my melee.   i try to play to my strengths and don't really care about damage anymore.</p><p>healing seems to be ok right now but i do agree that if healers get much better than the tanks role will be meaningless with a good healer.   guess he could go reckless..  lol</p>

[Kode Black]

<p>I completely agree that tanks need to be relevant, but to say that healers should be irrelevant so that tanks can have a job is not a trade I am willing to make. The healer population took a dive after the nerf to healers... for a good reason.</p><p>I consider myself a solid healer with raid gear, but with the nerf I was struggling to remain faithful to the class. I have an Illusionist I was prepping to play full time. I am not a band wagon player, I have been playing my Inquis for a long time; But I want to be an effective healer in BG, and I was struggling to find that.</p><p>Even with this new fix, my heal parses have gone up 20% AT BEST. At the worst of times I am still dropping as if the fix never happened, in the best of times I can actually throw an offensive spell and debuff while keeping up heals. To be perfectly honest, not every BG is evenly matched. I just matched up against the opposition and got smeared across Ganak... my wife was the only tank, and she couldnt keep them off of me. That alone is a testament to the fact that healers do not obsolete tanks... healers need to be able to heal effectively, otherwise we just wont play.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p><cite>Kode Black wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Healers need to be able to heal the oppositions damage. Considering each group should have 1 or 2 healers, a adequately equipped healer should have an equal chance to heal damage from an adequately equipped group of 3 to 5 people.</p></blockquote><p>I have seen this argument countless times and it is still completely wrong, no matter how many times you repeat. A healer shouldn't be able to outheal the dps of 2 dps classes. Ever. 2 dps classes on a healer = dead healer. A healer should be able to heal through 2 dps classes with a support of a tank that will taunt them off the healer and use their own temps to help the team survive through bursts as well. If you think 1 healer should be able to survive 3-5 people then a team with 2 healers could survive 6-10 people and if you add a tank that will get the dps off the healers you'd get to the situation where you need a full x4 to kill 1 tank and 2 healers. In a perfect world an equally geared  healer can heal for the amount a t1 dps class can dish out as dps. And then it comes down to who can time their bursts/emergency heals perfectly to see if the healer or the dps would win the fight 1v1. If you balance it like that then a group with 2 healers and a good tank would be able to survive a lot, but not indefinitely.</p>

[Kode Black]

<p>There will always be a differing opinion on the matter... some folks believe this is a first person shooter, and as such there is no place for a healer... thats fine, I dont think the devs agree, and their opinion seems to be the one that matters.</p>

[Loldawg]

<p><cite>Lethlian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><em>Also to be noted I"m not concerned about auto attack stats</em>...why people are assuming this when I clearly did not bring it up is beyond me. I'm concerned about CB because it does in fact have allot to do with my CA's hitting when they do crit. Now I know it seems some scout classes are more capable of bigger hits based off of CA's (but you have to account that those hits come from having to engage in a uninterrupted chain to complete)... but when you included swashbucklers, brigands, dirges, and troubadors they do not have any terribly big hitting CA's or combinations...even Assassins CA's are low and I haven't noticed many Sins doing all that great...Of course I'm stating all this based on my observations, you peeps need to calm down about my statements seemingly being law.</p></blockquote><p>Crit bonus is important to casters too. Equally important as it is to melee if you don't take into consideration auto-attack. That's why people are assuming you're upset b/c auto-attack will be less effective. </p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.</p></blockquote><p>The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.</p><p>If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).</p>

[Dahmer]

<p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.</p></blockquote><p>The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.</p><p>If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).</p></blockquote><p>I can assure you that it's not Transposition.</p><p>Have you ever taken into consideration that the indivdual is a Cleric~ Divine Aura is a easily dispelable temp stonskin buff. Also Templars have Unyielding Benidiction.</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Dahmer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.</p></blockquote><p>The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.</p><p>If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).</p></blockquote><p>I can assure you that it's not Transposition.</p><p>Have you ever taken into consideration that the indivdual is a Cleric~ Divine Aura is a easily dispelable temp stonskin buff. Also Templars have Unyielding Benidiction.</p></blockquote><p>It isn't DA.  I wont pretend i'm an expert on templars, generally speaking from my experience of them they are one of the harder priests to kill, but Amyee takes that to a whole new level.  And btw without using any of the new pvp stuff for what that's worth.</p><p>Of course, I'm going to be biased against stoneskins anyway as it is one of the many things that can screw over dance of metal.</p>

[Loldawg]

<p>Stoneskin procs are hit or miss. Sometimes they can seem OP. Sometimes they are completely absent. I melt pretty quickly to you Delethen without a healer.</p>

[Seliri]

<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">lol</span></p>

[Delethen]

<p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p>

[Tantrasil]

<p>I think its fine if a healer can heal through t1 dps. At the same time though which healers are they going ti cgange to t2 heals? If they change all healers being able to heal through one t1 dps then t2 dps should be changed to t1 damage right? Eh either way ill still be killing people, the heal change this week didnt help you guys as much as i thought it would.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p></blockquote><p>Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group. It is a valid trade off. She is the healer equivilent of a fully defensive equiped tank. The proper tactic to counter this type of templar is to take advantage of the reduced healing and kill the squishies first such as scouts, mages, and other healers or even kill the tank first. The only reason this can be a bit too much of a problem is your tactics of always trying to kill the healer first won't always work.</p><p>In the words of Vallon Zek "Strategy without tactics is the quickest path to defeat."</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group.</p></blockquote><p>If there wasn't such a low soft cap on crit bonus and potency then you might have had a valid point there.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group.</p></blockquote><p>If there wasn't such a low soft cap on crit bonus and potency then you might have had a valid point there.</p></blockquote><p>The point is still valid if you are using a kill the healer first strategy. I watched you PvP all night and it was your tactics that cost you wins not stoneskin mechanics. In the fights my team did lose the templar died last.</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you realize those particular procs come from very old gear and anyone equiping them would be reducing their overall stats and maximum healing potential. She was sacrificing the ability to heal others in exchange for self survivablity. She may be harder to kill but she will be healing for less than she would be able to otherwise especially healing other members in the group.</p></blockquote><p>If there wasn't such a low soft cap on crit bonus and potency then you might have had a valid point there.</p></blockquote><p>The point is still valid if you are using a kill the healer first strategy. I watched you PvP all night and it was your tactics that cost you wins not stoneskin mechanics. In the fights my team did lose the templar died last.</p></blockquote><p>Eh?  You made two points, i'm disagreeing with one of them, which is not valid.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>the strategy changes with different set ups.   sometimes killing healers first leaves the rest of the bunch dead on their feet sometimes killing dps turns the group into a soft marshmallow you can trample over easy and yet other times you're better off running the tank off somewhere far away.   </p><p>  healers don't need a bigger boost than this imo.  i already have to unload a substantial amount of damage on healers to get them dead (sometimes topping parse on one person lol).    chanters need something cool imo now</p>

[Hennyo]

<p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p></blockquote><p>I find this post particularly funny in a way, because it is one person calling out the gear of a single other person because they feel that it is too hard to kill them. Anyone who has watched nerf this persons stuff threads in pvp over the years, it is almost exclusively some dps calling some healer out for a nerf since forever.</p><p>The reality is that outside of control effect immunity items, about half of all RoK, ToS, and SF procs still work in pvp combat. There are probally even some EoF items that still work and are worth using, I also know that there are even some items from PoW that work in pvp combat, also even useful items from orgingal tier 5 content that still give an edge in pvp.</p><p>If you REALLY cared about pve items working in pvp, you would have mentioned any number of items in your list, instead of just one healers gear, that at best gives them a very small edge over some other players.</p><p>All this isn't to say that the people in charge of pvp combat, wouldn't like it if every pve proc in the game didn't work in pvp, and they had a completely clean stale environment to base pvp balance on. All the proof you need of this is to watch over time as more and more pve procs continued to get silently nerfed in pvp combat.</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p></blockquote><p>I find this post particularly funny in a way, because it is one person calling out the gear of a single other person because they feel that it is too hard to kill them. Anyone who has watched nerf this persons stuff threads in pvp over the years, it is almost exclusively some dps calling some healer out for a nerf since forever.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Except no, its entirely not about me calling out the gear of a single other person, the single other person was just an example.</span></p><p>The reality is that outside of control effect immunity items, about half of all RoK, ToS, and SF procs still work in pvp combat. There are probally even some EoF items that still work and are worth using, I also know that there are even some items from PoW that work in pvp combat, also even useful items from orgingal tier 5 content that still give an edge in pvp.</p><p>If you REALLY cared about pve items working in pvp, you would have mentioned any number of items in your list, instead of just one healers gear, that at best gives them a very small edge over some other players.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes the procs I mentioned were all on one char, but I have no problem with that char at all.   That's more because i'm lazy and not going to search out every single proc out there as opposed to just listing examples off one char I inspected earlier.  As to the small edge part, sure, but the buff to priest healing means in my opinion (rightly or wrongly) that a priest can be put too far ahead of the curve.</span></p><p>All this isn't to say that the people in charge of pvp combat, wouldn't like it if every pve proc in the game didn't work in pvp, and they had a completely clean stale environment to base pvp balance on. All the proof you need of this is to watch over time as more and more pve procs continued to get silently nerfed in pvp combat.</p></blockquote>

[Rynir]

<p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p></blockquote><p>I use the blackstone shield and dispacement ring on my mystic. Since there is a soft cap on stats I really do not miss out on the potency and cb I lose from switching to lower tier items.  The stone skin is nice and the displacement proc keep me full on power. </p><p>On another note, rogues and assassins are just ridiculous. For some reason rogues are able to chain stun me more than a chanter while dispelling everything and hitting you for a ton of dmg. As for assassins, it seems like soe nerfed everones stifle except for thiers. Im usually dead or very close before it wears off.</p><p>Its not really hard to heal through a mage's dps due to their cast time vs scouts.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Rynir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p></blockquote><p>I use the blackstone shield and dispacement ring on my mystic. Since there is a soft cap on stats I really do not miss out on the potency and cb I lose from switching to lower tier items.  The stone skin is nice and the displacement proc keep me full on power. </p><p>On another note, rogues and assassins are just ridiculous. For some reason rogues are able to chain stun me more than a chanter while dispelling everything and hitting you for a ton of dmg. As for assassins, it seems like soe nerfed everones stifle except for thiers. Im usually dead or very close before it wears off.</p><p>Its not really hard to heal through a mage's dps due to their cast time vs scouts.</p></blockquote><p>  you've been lucky.</p><p> my mages can deal out as much death as my scouts if not more.     the problem is that most mages play their class to top parses not tactical kills.</p><p>  melee scouts should have some sort of advantage since they have to be in melee range and thus with in reach of every singe aoe taunt/damage/CC.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, my previous posts in this thread were pretty lazy and quite wrong for 99%, partly based on the fact I was reliant on my poor memory (which was wrong, not for the first time), so let me try again.</p><p>If for example a templar has the following passive procs -</p><p>Blackstone (1 hit stoneskin procs 1.7 times a minute off a heal)</p><p>Sacred Territory III (3500 group AE ward triggers 2.4 times a minute)</p><p>Purifying Persistence (dispel 100 levels of any hostile effects on target and increases next heal or ward by 10%, triggers 2.2 times per minute)</p><p>Displacement (5% chance for 2 hit stoneskin)</p><p>The point I am trying to make I think is that pvp in this game (as far as I'm aware) is currently being taken in a direction where passive abilities / procs are being marginalised to make the game more reliant on activated abilities / CAs etc, and when you buff priest healing to make them more effective in pvp (which may I say I don't particularly have an issue with) and add procs like these on top of it, it is a bit too much.</p></blockquote><p>I find this post particularly funny in a way, because it is one person calling out the gear of a single other person because they feel that it is too hard to kill them. Anyone who has watched nerf this persons stuff threads in pvp over the years, it is almost exclusively some dps calling some healer out for a nerf since forever.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Except no, its entirely not about me calling out the gear of a single other person, the single other person was just an example.</span></p><p>The reality is that outside of control effect immunity items, about half of all RoK, ToS, and SF procs still work in pvp combat. There are probally even some EoF items that still work and are worth using, I also know that there are even some items from PoW that work in pvp combat, also even useful items from orgingal tier 5 content that still give an edge in pvp.</p><p>If you REALLY cared about pve items working in pvp, you would have mentioned any number of items in your list, instead of just one healers gear, that at best gives them a very small edge over some other players.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes the procs I mentioned were all on one char, but I have no problem with that char at all.   That's more because i'm lazy and not going to search out every single proc out there as opposed to just listing examples off one char I inspected earlier.  As to the small edge part, sure, but the buff to priest healing means in my opinion (rightly or wrongly) that a priest can be put too far ahead of the curve.</span></p><p>All this isn't to say that the people in charge of pvp combat, wouldn't like it if every pve proc in the game didn't work in pvp, and they had a completely clean stale environment to base pvp balance on. All the proof you need of this is to watch over time as more and more pve procs continued to get silently nerfed in pvp combat.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yawn...yet another dps class trying to get more healer nerfs cause a smart healer situationally geared up for enhanced pvp survivability...I do tire of these poorly thought out ill concieved ideas...we already have some mental giants on various pvp threads calling for either the outright removal of healer in combat rezes or place them on long reuse timers shortest one I saw was 30 mins.  You name it people moan about it from the crying about pve procs (which never were the true problem in pvp it was set bonus stats and the stat inflation that were unchanged in pvp) to healers cure too many dets with their cures (the fact that once dets are cleared they are basically replaced within a matter of 1 or 2 secs...and theres a limit we can clear which was nerfed due to these types of nerf calls...but it does make it easier for the poorer pvpers out there to try and kill a group...lulz).</p><p>But hey its all good keep asking for more nerfs against healers...the pool of good pvp healers is slowly dwindling and overall healers will follow suit as they stop playing their healers due to the veruca salt like cries for more nerfs against us.</p>

[Dahmer]

<p>Gotta love how all the procs rates you listed are the moded versions.</p><p>Nice to see instead of dispelling Divine Aura off me last night, you were inspecting to me to make this list. So constuctive! I love how you made no mention of my actual pvp gear.</p><p>Funny how a few matches prior i got owned by a Swashy, simply put~ You have to change your tatics. As a swashy you have the tools to do so, there are no excuses.</p><p>Putting the blame on procs~ Some of which have been in PvP as early as RoK is not a validated reason not to kill someone, more so considering that most healers in pvp are wearing similar items.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Dahmer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gotta love how all the procs rates you listed are the moded versions.</p><p>Nice to see instead of dispelling Divine Aura off me last night, you were inspecting to me to make this list. So constuctive! I love how you made no mention of my actual pvp gear.</p><p>Funny how a few matches prior i got owned by a Swashy, simply put~ You have to change your tatics. As a swashy you have the tools to do so, there are no excuses.</p><p>Putting the blame on procs~ Some of which have been in PvP as early as RoK is not a validated reason not to kill someone, more so considering that most healers in pvp are wearing similar items.</p></blockquote><p>Spot on assessment...as such for pointing out the truth you have been sentenced to a firing squad at dawn...theres good and theres bad...the bad is its all templars the good is its blaze of faith ...lulz</p>

[Darq]

<p><cite>Dahmer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Delethen@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tantrasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to disagree. Healers shouldnt be able to heal through 3-5 dps. Why should we need tanks if they could? If you want skill like you said then a team should have to work together to keep the dps off healers. They had it right with the update last week except the shaman wards that happened this week.</p></blockquote><p>The problem I think is mostly from some priest gear procs that in my opinion are just too overpowered - transposition comes to mind for one, but there are others I just don't recall the names of atm.</p><p>If you had someone like, for the sake of argument, Unrest.Amyee, grouped with a bard or conjuror they'd probably stoneskin half the attacks (or it would at least seem like that).</p></blockquote><p>I can assure you that it's not Transposition.</p><p>Have you ever taken into consideration that the indivdual is a Cleric~ Divine Aura is a easily dispelable temp stonskin buff. Also Templars have Unyielding Benidiction.</p></blockquote><p>cleric's isn't, crusader's is</p>