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Mixxit

08-20-2012, 01:01 AM

Here is just about everything I can find on the dead hills put into a a chronological order that seems to make sense surrounding this mysterious place and put into a sort of story format (which I used for in game RP surrounding Kyle's reappearance)The Dead Hills<img src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25535993/deadhills.png" width="301" height="404" />The Previous God of Health (Anashti'Sul) and the Previous God of Disease (Xul'Varien)Many ages ago the two gods of life and disease battled, for all that Anashti'Sul could save, poison and decay would spread the lands and the things that were sustained in life would soon return to the dust. Anashti'Sul in her arrogance attempted to find a permanent solution to this and granted the gift of undeath so that no life would ever be lost. The Pantheon were outraged by the creation of undead and banished her forever to the Void where she would remain until the Age of Destiny. It is not known how Xul'Varien came to depart Norrath but it must have been around this time as soon to follow, two new Gods would be born to replace them.The Xulous and the old gods of Health and DiseaseIt is known that the Xulous were also present in the region in the south western area of Tunaria that we know know as the Dead Hills. In ages past they were partly responsible for the very creation of a creature known as Bertoxxulous through a strange priest named Ultor. The Xulous were renowned dragon hunters and their empire spread wide across Norrath. It was not till the arrival of a strange monolith in the center of one of their towns would the Xulous be challenged and despite King Adan's greatest advisors none could answer the riddle of this unusual monolith. One day a priest named Ultor Szanvon would arrive proclaiming he knew the secrets of the obelisk and that it was their ancestors where the answers lay. He took the King Adan to their great many tombs and claiming that the spirits of the fallen regents would be offended at being disturbed by anyone other than nobility and they opened the great sealed doors of the Crypts of Kings Rest. Ultor then betrayed King Adan and sacrificed him over the corpses of his forefathers and out of this was born Bertoxxulous, the new God of Disease who bound him and the previous kings to his service. The risen undead kings rose armies of the dead from the necropolis of Lxanvon and spread across the lands ravaging all in their path, and leaving only death and destruction in their wake. Those who were not destroyed by the weapons of the undead armies were killed slowly by a deadly plague, carried by the risen kings, and spread like wildfire amidst the Xulous. Their entire race succumbed to the pestilence and the Xulous were no more. Bertoxxulous, pleased and swollen with pride by his genocidal accomplishment called his minions back to the necropolis that had served as their resting place for so many years. The risen Xulous kings gathered in the bowels of their crypts as a great mist enveloped Lxanvon. The ancient dragons watched from afar as the mists cleared, revealing only a barren and broken landscape where the necropolis had once lied.The Dead HillsIn the far south and westerly reaches of Old Tunaria, over the formidable mountains that once marked the boundary to the Great Unknown stretches a land of bleak, dreary, grey waste. Little seems to grow here, for plant life must withstand a constant assault of ash and cinders from the down wind blow of not so distant volcanism. Verily, the landscape seems to have the very life sucked from it. And while the desolate waste appears lifeless, many of the inhabitants most certainly are! Tucked in the corner of this bare, blasted land is a crumbling city, with a remarkable tower jutting up through the ruin, emanating a sickly, malevolent green glow from its summit. Within this city, the restless dead lumber and roam, pulled forth from beyond the grave to serve the masters of this city. Whispers, tales and rumors name these ruins as the Tomb City of Envar and home to the immortal race of the Jalraeth, a malign group of creatures absorbed with the death and dying of the mortals they encounter, or enticing dead souls to their dilapidated city to join in forced servitude. Outside the ranks of the darkest practitioners of necromancy, little beyond what is stated above is known about the Jalraeth race or their dark city. Perhaps more will be known now that the Frontier beyond the encircling Rathe Mountains has seen an increased rise in hardy (or perhaps foolhardy) adventurers. Some that have been known to travel here including Kyle Bayle and famous adventurer, Edril the Lancer.Deep within this land lays the Tomb City of Envar a diseased and infested library for the Jal'Raeth of old surrounded by 4 libraries and a great spire that reaches up from it's center. Known inhabitants of this cursed city include Tal'Thir, High Priest Vorlin and the The Prophet Envar. Even apart from these threats the annointed mummies, accursed zombies and maggots here are known to be a great danger to anyone that approaches and their diseases being only curable by something known as the Envaric Salve. Few have ventured here and returned to tell the tale although some that have speak of a great translocation spell known as Astral Displacement that can be found in the walls of the ancient tomb city.The Jal'Raeth and Rodcet NifeIt is spoken of that the Jal'Raeth were obsessed with death because they could not die and that one of the Jal'Raeth were unlike his kin and was known as Rodcet Nife. Instead of spreading disease and undeath he instead healed and cured those around him. Due to the banishment of the goddesss of health Anashti'Sul for her gift of undeath Rodcet was eventually ascended to the role of God of Health.It is not known for how long Rodcet fought the Xulous disease that had spread across the land but it is written that he descended on Qeynos in a great spherical vessel many years later demanding information on if the Xulous infection had reached their land. Although he did not stay long, his vessel still remains in North Qeynos where it has stood even to this day and the priests of life make their home.The Citadel of Tal'Thex/The Pagoda of Tal'ThexThe fortress of Tal’Thex is a place that is rarely spoken of and even when the words are heard it is often within the clandestine mage towers of Norrath. There are some Koada’Dal that know more about the hidden fortress, but they are few and far between and not easily persuaded to speak of such Elddar secrets. Such tight lips can only be pried open with fugitive trinkets. It was constructed long after the lands of the dead hills were barren and devoid of life.The living statues that we see throughout the Age of Destiny, such as the titanic sentries of New Tunaria, are constructs created through ancient Elddar techniques. Those arcane methods were first developed to create the massive Guardians of Tal’Thex. Over the ages, the knowledge used to create the giant constructs has made its way into the libraries of some of the greater mages and scholars of Norrath. The library of Kaesora may have been the home to one of those ancient scrolls. Venril or his minions must have found a way to reproduce the Elddar rituals that gave life to such impressive constructs.Titanic constructs are not the only present day gifts that are associated with Tal’Thex. There are a few others making their way around Norrath. Unfortunately, these other secrets were never meant to escape the vaults of Tal’Thex.The Citadel of Tal'Thex is located not far out of the water from the Castle Envar. The Tal'Thex were a long dead elven empire that were led by Lord Valkanith centuries ago which few can remember. There is little to no information on Tal'Thex other than various artifacts such a the Tal'Thex Diamond which was once found in the hands of House N'Ryt in the legandary towers of Syncamore Joy's Rest. The island now is full of undead Tal'Thex soldiers, knights and sorcerers who have toiled tirelessly for their now undead leader Lord Valkanith. Brave adventurers who travelled there over 1000 years ago speak of mythical treasures they found among the dead including the legendary Bone Wing Sentinel (Known to summon a bone wing familiar), Crown of Tal'Thex (known for it's regenerative magic), Phylactery of Valkanith (This amulet contained a significant portion of the life of Lord Valkanith, the former ruler of the Tal'thex) , Positronian Energy Shield (A magical shield of positive energy created by the tal'thex elves. Undead are harmed by contact with positive energies), Positronian Mace (This mace had been imbued long ago with vast amounts of positive energy by the tal'thex elves. It causes great harm to undead) and the Rune of Defilement (invokes energies from your surroundings and absorbs them into your body)Mal'AhktAnother worthy mention is a strange book located in the hands of a rare trinklet dealer that also speaks of the Dead Hills in a short tale regarding a Dal named Mal'Ahkt in the times when Takish'Hiz still stood. Mal'Ahkt was plagued with curiosity on the nature of benevolence and eventually became intruiged by the darker arts. He had heared of elven vaults of such things where the contents were hidden away for the good of all that breath and this place was the Pagoda of Tal'Thex. It is known at the Pagoda was constructed when the land was still barren of life. Mal’Ahkt had learned of the Pagoda of Tal’Thex from a dying old man, dying from the clutches of Mal’Ahkt that were wrapped around his wrinkled neck. He learned from the old man, Haldinous that no living creature could cross the Dead Hills, only creatures of Clay. He explained how he had used the Clay of Cosgrove to create a behemoth that could cross the sands and so Mal'Ahkt began work on his own clay form. It was than they he realised he had been tricked by the old man, who was never living at all, he killed the real body of Mal'Ahkt and left him forever trapped within inferior clay. Haldinous was as much a Dal as any, swearing allegiance to their causes such as the keeping of the secret of the Pagoda of Tal’Thex. Mal’Ahkt was fooled into a near immobile body of inferior clay. Haldinous then began work on his final work with the now helpless soul of Mal’Ahkt. Haldinous formed a final Guardian construct for the Elddar Empire, one to wage war against undead empires, one that needed a dab of dark arts. And so the sentience of Mal’Ahkt was painfully removed and all his great power used to form the construct defender called the Guardian of Nief. Mal’Ahkt was foolish to betray his people and paid his full price. His soul is now in a void of oblivion and his powers within the guardian. Mal’Ahkt is no moreKyle Antihilus BayleAntonius Bayle III grew up during the beginning of this Age of Turmoil. During his childhood, he witnessed the construction of the heretic city of Paineel and saw Sir Lucan take control of the city of Freeport. When he came to power as ruler of Qeynos at the age of 26, he did his best to remain neutral and, as such, was named “The Great Diplomat.” Antonius Bayle III, for reasons unknown, chose to break tradition and name his first son Kyle rather than Antonius. In an attempt to establish a new seat of power in Antonica and extend his lands southward, Antonius III charged his eldest son Kyle with the expansion. Kyle left with a cadre of men to find a suitable location and to begin building.A great deal of time passed without hearing any word or report of progress on this project. Antonius Bayle III sent a series of scouts to investigate but none ever returned. Kyle, his men and those sent to investigate were never heard from again. Roughly 25 years after the mysterious disappearance of Kyle, Antonius Bayle III had another son. This one he chose to name Antonius and he became Antonius Bayle IV. At the age of 24, Antonius Bayle IV was installed as the ruler of Qeynos, which he remains to this day.Antonius IV never knew Kyle. All he knows of his older brother is what was learned through stories told by his elders. Though he does occasionally wonder about what happened to him, he is too focused and dedicated to his duties as ruler to consider spending the time and resources that would be needed to search for the answers. This is a purely personal concern and he would not feel right about using city resources for such a selfish, wistful and sentimental reason. And thus, he seldom, if ever, discusses the matter.It is spoken of that the real reason Antonius Bayle the III sent his son far to the south to expand Qeynos was due to an ancient curse on the family of Bayle where there the first born could never be left to rule else a great chalamaty would befall the kingdom.And so, it is assumed that Kyle did lose his life in the land of the Dead Hills shortly after founding new Qeynos. It was not till the Age of Destiny that Kyle would once again rear his head during the search for the Qeynos Claymore by Murrah Shar. Within the Sanctum of the Scaleborn Kyle Bayle's soul had been trapped within Droag named Exarch Bylze (who had trapped several other souls inside him also). Kyle tricked us into gathering him a suit of armour and then enchanting it so his spirit could be attached to the object and he could be freed and aid us with the Qeynos Claymore. Sadly Kyle escaped following the release of his soul and did not return till much later.Kyle had found a way to possess Murrah Shar and kidnap Queen Antonia Bayle and on discovering this he revealed the following to us:'I am Kyle Antihilus Bayle, true firstborn of Antonius Bayle III and rightful heir to the throne of Qeynos! Banished from my homeland, I founded a new kingdom south of the Rathe Mountains, a kingdom that was cursed to fall. I perished along with all my subjects, but even death was not the end of my curse. My tormented soul was wrenched from the ethernere in a blasphemous droag ritual, and consumed by one of their defiled shades (Exarch Bylze). I was annihilated, a fate worse than death. But I came to be again. From the deepest vortex of oblivion, a voice spoke my name, the voice of my Master. He called me back into existence and showed me my true purpose. The last shred of my soul awoke within the shade of Bylze that had comsumed me. I was ruined and pitiful, but possessed a new will far greater than a droag’s petty spirit. In the end, I consumed him, and eventually tricked a foolish band of adventurers into freeing me. I was only a matter of time before I found my way into your friend’s dreams (Murrah Shar), ate his soul and took his body. It was destiny.'The Master Kyle Bayle speaks of is Theer, the God of Balance who would seek to recover his two weapons the Qeynos Claymore and Soulfire. The Shadowed Men who had been working in unison with Theer and Anashti'Sul who were banished to the Void by the Pantheon and these shadowed henchmen, through anchors to Norrath from the Void seeked endlessly for those with knowledge of the weapons as can beseen in the documents recovered from the anchors:'In case of an emergency disembarkment or the eventual final fade phase, please be sure to protect and secure this list of particular knowledge vessels (Kyle Bayle and others), as they are vital to our continued research'Queen Antonia Bayle says, "You'll never find it! The followers of the Awakened stole it from my palace and then the Order of Marr stole it back from them. Even I don't know where it is now!"*corrected* Kyle then succeeded in locating the Qeynos Claymore in the vaults of Qeynos which had been placed there by the Order of Marr for safe keeping and delivered it to theer. Once again Kyle has now returned to our Kingdom, attempting to usurp the throne from Queen Antonia Bayle and finding a new host for his body. Though even all these attempts he has resulted in failure. Now we wonder if he is to return with his armies from the Dead Hills, an exceptionally dangerous place that few have seen.

Meirril

08-21-2012, 05:37 AM

It is a well told story. I think certain portions of it may be inaccurate. Placing the Xulous on Norrath for one thing. I believe that particular story comes from one of the many lore books introduced from the Obelisk of Lost Souls. That particular series of books allude to the events happening on other worlds that are connected as void anchors. I believe one of the listed anchors is Xulous.I'd like to know where you found info on Xul'Varien, especially information on him being a diety and banished/destroyed during an unknown period of Norrath (possibly during the lost age?).Also amongst the stories from the Obelisk of Lost Souls are possible origin stories for Rodcet and Bertoxxulous. Both dieties are rumored (even in EQ1 before EQ2's launch) to not originate on Norrath.Kyle Bayle *succeeded* in stealing the Qeynos Claymoor from the vault under the monument and delivered it to Theer. That is why Theer had the weapon during the Sentinel's Fate raid series, just as Soulfire (and Lucan D'Leer) were stolen from Freeport at the same time. The Order of Marr had returned the Claymoor to Qeynos for safe keeping.What Kyle received in return is still a mystery.

Ragnaphore

08-21-2012, 06:29 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to know where you found info on Xul'Varien, especially information on him being a diety and banished/destroyed during an unknown period of Norrath (possibly during the lost age?)..</blockquote>It's from the Anashti Sul's deity questline. When you bring her back to Norrath, she mentions that her old foe (Xul'Varien) is gone and replaced by Bertoxx.

Mixxit

08-21-2012, 06:35 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think certain portions of it may be inaccurate. Placing the Xulous on Norrath for one thing.</blockquote>Hi, I can confirm they were on old Antonica with a lore quote which can be found archived on the official everquest website here: <a href="http://www.everquest.com/news/article?month=032008&id=50865">http://www.everquest.com/news/artic...032008&id=50865</a>And the quote in particular is 'The crypt was originally built upon Antonica in an age long past to house the dead kings of a long dead ancient race.'Also a second quote confirms in the document The Necropolis of Lxanvon Volume found on the collectable quest in EQ2<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Necropolis_of_Lxanvon_Vol._I_(House_Item)">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Necro..._I_(House_Item)</a>The quote is 'The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings.'Meirril wrote:<blockquote>I'd like to know where you found info on Xul'Varien, especially information on him being a diety and banished/destroyed during an unknown period of Norrath (possibly during the lost age?).</blockquote>The line for Xul'Varien can be found from The Avatar of the Forgotten during the diety quest and quote is:Avatar of the Forgotten says to you, “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.”<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kyle Bayle *succeeded* in stealing the Qeynos Claymoor from the vault under the monument and delivered it to Theer. That is why Theer had the weapon during the Sentinel's Fate raid series, just as Soulfire (and Lucan D'Leer) were stolen from Freeport at the same time. The Order of Marr had returned the Claymoor to Qeynos for safe keeping.</blockquote>Thanks, it has been some time since I did the event and my memory was hazy!

ratbast

08-21-2012, 06:42 PM

the person who destroyed xul'varien gave kyle bayle a promise? certainly sounds reasonable that kyle would expect enshrinement in the pantheon as reward. i would think theer would make oaths of revenge while in the void. my guess would be kyle wants theer to get his twins back so he can clear out some room for kyles deification. which plane of influence would he ask theer to clear? would probably be shaped by whatever happened in new qeynos. i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence. xulous magic would make a siege all the more fearsome for ancient dragons attacking them. and if dragons die they just make fortifications stronger. reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise. welcome to what war against xulous means. how nasty for dragons. id love to see kyle reawaken this gruesome scene/sorcery. a different kind of necromancy. not awakening dead, just using corpses as power source. plus enslaving the disembodied. corpse fuel, ghost servants. harnessing both sides of the soul duality. necropolis of Lxanvon is so fitting, ESPECIALLY if Lxanvon was a big ol' dragon whose corpse started the settlement. another dragon of that age was named Ulvaxazoviak. weird names. so theer tells kyle how bert used genocide magic to destroy xulous. kyle prepares rituals to destroy all humans, prepares theer to kill bertoxulous. who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter. and then varsoon, when he first became immortal lived in diseased immortality. xulous were immortal and were created by god of disease. wasnt varsoon tinkering around southern antonica? he must have bought a race change potion off the marketplace with station cash after he discovered the xulous story.

Mixxit

08-21-2012, 09:20 PM

Hey I can only answer a couple of these based on the above i am not sure about the theer event i never did the raid sadly<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>im guessing they were creation of xul'varien</blockquote>It might have been the original creator as we don't know but i doubt it because they didn't seem to get involved with disease and decay magic till after bertoxxulous corrupted them They seem more like a normal humanoid style race that were known to fight dragons until bertoxxulous was born and it all went to hell<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise</blockquote>You can see their home which was transcended to the plane of disease by going to the Crypt of Decay in EQ1 here are some screenies, the kings are there etc too<img src="http://everquest.allakhazam.com/scenery/codecay-spectre.jpg" width="1024" height="749" /><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter.</blockquote>Ultor was a High Priest and was the one that created Bertoxxulous - I am assuming he was a High Priest of Xul'Varien since there was no bertoxxulous yetAfter creating Bertoxxulous and then the xulous becoming corrupted and spreading the infection across norrath they were transcended with Lxanvon to the Plane of Disease Ultor is also there in the Crypt of Decay to this day on EQ1<img src="http://zam.zamimg.com/images/i/d/id10517.png" width="457" height="536" />

ratbast

08-22-2012, 09:18 PM

for me their names are too close for coincidence. xulous/xul'varien. seems implausible he/she wasnt their creator. but thats just me. since they worshipped their ancestors i give them a pass for being created by 'unknown' god in necropolis narrative. out of curiousity, what expac was ultor put in eq1 as a mob? is his existence in pod eq2 cannon? i did a pod raid once, i wish i had paid more attention now. i just remember running over nasty land into a hole(tomb?) and then fighting bertoxulous and minions. i think ultor is my favorite character in all of eq2. he is subversive and uses corrupting magic and rises to greatness. and his effect was enormous. from his brand of magic to his politican machinations, he is a rockstar. i think he was either a member of xulous race, or he was using the obelisks to planet-jump before existence of void ppls (and snuck into xulous community when obelisks appeared in remembrances-berrox). anyway, his knowledge of obelisks seemed to help him gain good graces of the king.

Cusashorn

08-22-2012, 09:26 PM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>for me their names are too close for coincidence. xulous/xul'varien. seems implausible he/she wasnt their creator. but thats just me. since they worshipped their ancestors i give them a pass for being created by 'unknown' god in necropolis narrative. out of curiousity, what expac was ultor put in eq1 as a mob? is his existence in pod eq2 cannon? i did a pod raid once, i wish i had paid more attention now. i just remember running over nasty land into a hole(tomb?) and then fighting bertoxulous and minions. i think ultor is my favorite character in all of eq2. he is subversive and uses corrupting magic and rises to greatness. and his effect was enormous. from his brand of magic to his politican machinations, he is a rockstar. i think he was either a member of xulous race, or he was using the obelisks to planet-jump before existence of void ppls (and snuck into xulous community when obelisks appeared in remembrances-berrox). anyway, his knowledge of obelisks seemed to help him gain good graces of the king.</blockquote>Plane of Disease, well, rather, the Crypt of Bertoxxulous, part of the Planes of Power expansion pack, which is official canon to EQ2.

Mixxit

08-22-2012, 11:14 PM

Ultor is also canon yep as can be seen in the (slightly different but very similar) version of Necropolis of Lxanvon found in the Forbidden City/CityoftheNayadText proof is here: <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Necropolis_of_Lxanvon_Vol._II_(House_Item)">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Necro...II_(House_Item)</a>

ratbast

08-22-2012, 11:40 PM

sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?

Mixxit

08-22-2012, 11:59 PM

because ultor was in the crypt of decay in the eq1 planes of power expansion I would say so - but I am not sure if there will be a shard of disease/shard of decay yet

Ragnaphore

08-23-2012, 07:30 AM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?</blockquote>There's no clear answer (yet).Ultor's defeat in CoD is cannon for sure. Whether or not he was definitly destroyed in the battle is anyone guess. (A very powerful undead priest "killed" in a place chock-full of necromantic magic and which is also the heart of his god's powers... Would you realy bet, he won't come back ?)

Mixxit

08-23-2012, 08:54 AM

<cite>Ragnaphore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?</blockquote>There's no clear answer (yet).Ultor's defeat in CoD is cannon for sure. Whether or not he was definitly destroyed in the battle is anyone guess. (A very powerful undead priest "killed" in a place chock-full of necromantic magic and which is also the heart of his god's powers... Would you realy bet, he won't come back ?)</blockquote>Remember that time was reversed by Druzzil Ro to just before we invaded the Planes of Power so we haven't defeated him in this timelineBut i am not sure what has happened to the Plane of Disease, it probably collapsed like the other planes and then a shard was created on Bertoxxulous's return - maybe ultor and the crypt is in it i am not sure

Meirril

08-23-2012, 10:57 AM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>the person who destroyed xul'varien gave kyle bayle a promise? certainly sounds reasonable that kyle would expect enshrinement in the pantheon as reward. i would think theer would make oaths of revenge while in the void. my guess would be kyle wants theer to get his twins back so he can clear out some room for kyles deification. which plane of influence would he ask theer to clear? would probably be shaped by whatever happened in new qeynos. i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence. xulous magic would make a siege all the more fearsome for ancient dragons attacking them. and if dragons die they just make fortifications stronger. reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise. welcome to what war against xulous means. how nasty for dragons. id love to see kyle reawaken this gruesome scene/sorcery. a different kind of necromancy. not awakening dead, just using corpses as power source. plus enslaving the disembodied. corpse fuel, ghost servants. harnessing both sides of the soul duality. necropolis of Lxanvon is so fitting, ESPECIALLY if Lxanvon was a big ol' dragon whose corpse started the settlement. another dragon of that age was named Ulvaxazoviak. weird names. so theer tells kyle how bert used genocide magic to destroy xulous. kyle prepares rituals to destroy all humans, prepares theer to kill bertoxulous. who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter. and then varsoon, when he first became immortal lived in diseased immortality. xulous were immortal and were created by god of disease. wasnt varsoon tinkering around southern antonica? he must have bought a race change potion off the marketplace with station cash after he discovered the xulous story.</blockquote>Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.Kyle didn't stick around Theer or the Shadowmen after he delivered the Claymoor. If he was expecting to be raised to deity status or a major promotion in Theer's ranks he'd still be with them when we come knocking. Whatever Kyle was after he traded and left. I'm suspecting it was to get free of Theer, or maybe to get his old body back.The only thing that Kyle has talked about for 2 live events now is gaining the throne of Qeynos and assuming his "rightful" place as King. I seriously don't know how that gets interpreted to be a run for godhood. If any NPC wanted that they should try to lure Zeb to a bar and get him really, really drunk.Also Varsoon wasn't diseased. He was trapped by the Shadowmen and forced to server Theer. A fragment of his being was (is) trying to obtain a new body and live again. Much like Ricantus Everling is fragmented all over the place due to the Void influence his contact lead to.

ratbast

08-23-2012, 05:40 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>the person who destroyed xul'varien gave kyle bayle a promise? certainly sounds reasonable that kyle would expect enshrinement in the pantheon as reward. i would think theer would make oaths of revenge while in the void. my guess would be kyle wants theer to get his twins back so he can clear out some room for kyles deification. which plane of influence would he ask theer to clear? would probably be shaped by whatever happened in new qeynos. i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence. xulous magic would make a siege all the more fearsome for ancient dragons attacking them. and if dragons die they just make fortifications stronger. reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise. welcome to what war against xulous means. how nasty for dragons. id love to see kyle reawaken this gruesome scene/sorcery. a different kind of necromancy. not awakening dead, just using corpses as power source. plus enslaving the disembodied. corpse fuel, ghost servants. harnessing both sides of the soul duality. necropolis of Lxanvon is so fitting, ESPECIALLY if Lxanvon was a big ol' dragon whose corpse started the settlement. another dragon of that age was named Ulvaxazoviak. weird names. so theer tells kyle how bert used genocide magic to destroy xulous. kyle prepares rituals to destroy all humans, prepares theer to kill bertoxulous. who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter. and then varsoon, when he first became immortal lived in diseased immortality. xulous were immortal and were created by god of disease. wasnt varsoon tinkering around southern antonica? he must have bought a race change potion off the marketplace with station cash after he discovered the xulous story.</blockquote>Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.Kyle didn't stick around Theer or the Shadowmen after he delivered the Claymoor. If he was expecting to be raised to deity status or a major promotion in Theer's ranks he'd still be with them when we come knocking. Whatever Kyle was after he traded and left. I'm suspecting it was to get free of Theer, or maybe to get his old body back.The only thing that Kyle has talked about for 2 live events now is gaining the throne of Qeynos and assuming his "rightful" place as King. I seriously don't know how that gets interpreted to be a run for godhood. If any NPC wanted that they should try to lure Zeb to a bar and get him really, really drunk.Also Varsoon wasn't diseased. He was trapped by the Shadowmen and forced to server Theer. A fragment of his being was (is) trying to obtain a new body and live again. Much like Ricantus Everling is fragmented all over the place due to the Void influence his contact lead to.</blockquote>we certainly do disagree over many points. as for varsoon, you might want to read the RoV quest reward books. they talk about his diseased immortality, along with a host of living-in-agony human experiments lining his walls ("Aliens" motif again).i will concede the timeline is inconsistent(if you take deities as incapable of lying/manipulating mortals). so the conclusions you draw depend on where you start picking up lore tidbits. your conclusions are certainly valid if you start with anashti quotes and work your way from there.what i see as crux of inconsistent is 1) lore from necropolis of lxanvon (placing xulous in/near/before age of scale time period), and 2) anashti saying she didnt know about xulvarien dying. so depending on which piece of lore you start from you arrive at different conclusion.i think anashti not knowing about xulvariens demise and bertox rise needs retcon, or else she was just being coy and feigning ignorance (or outright lying). the necropolis lore says "Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings.".theer certainly did kill xulvarien. he killed atleast 4 former dieties with his godslaying weapons, we have their names, one of which is xulvarien. thats his function in universe, as designed by nameless. slaughter gods of influence when they cause imbalance. something theer would have done to rallos if he had his swords. xulous were kicking dragons butt at the time. probably during age of scale. probably having council of (slain) gods (plus maybe anashti since she was familiar with xulvarien) to seed the planet even before brell knew norrath existed. its almost like a mini-noahs ark incident. killing all gods and races except veeshan (and anashti) and only preserving veeshans races, who somehow escaped the plague. world cleansed by plague, but dragonkin survived somehow, like noah surviving in his ark. then starting over with new gods and new races, other councils. but the favorite race is preserved.xulvarien has to die before bertox is born (coincides with extinction of xulous), which happens before tunaria is known as tunaria. meaning before tunare arrives on planet norrath. order: xulvarien slain, xulous extinct, tunare arrives, elves created, anashti worshipped by elves, anashti tinkers with elves, anashti banished.extinction times for xulvarien is first, then xulous. meaning the race was godless for a time. maybe thats why they turned to ancestor worship. maybe xulvarien infused his divinity into xulous, cuz he didnt want to watch over them, he wanted to take a vacation. thus they were too strong and unmonitored. he abandoned them, which got himself slain while leaving behind a bamf race that was genociding poor veeshans kids. so then an extinction level event for all races except dragonkin--->ultor plague.the only race/deity combo unaccounted for in planar assignments i know of are naiad and their great eye. meaning all former norrathians deities offspring are dead, except naiad (if they are norrathian at all). or are there others? demigods dont count.eq1 clearly proves ultor and bertox are not the same entity. so who was bertox before his ascension? plane of influence deities are either mortals who rise, or are created by elemental deities. ultor is not an elemental deity.if i could offer a possible explanation for events shortly after veeshan deposits first brood: 1 or more prehistoric deities made behemoths, who made dragons look like ants. so dragons are basically in hide mode. then xulous race ferets out the hiding dragons and takes advantage of them. ultors plague cleanses planet, then the rest of age of scale occurs where dragons rule uncontested.

The_Cheeseman

08-23-2012, 08:51 PM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>theer certainly did kill xulvarien. he killed atleast 4 former dieties with his godslaying weapons, we have their names, one of which is xulvarien. thats his function in universe, as designed by nameless. slaughter gods of influence when they cause imbalance. something theer would have done to rallos if he had his swords. xulous were kicking dragons butt at the time. probably during age of scale. probably having council of (slain) gods (plus maybe anashti since she was familiar with xulvarien) to seed the planet even before brell knew norrath existed. its almost like a mini-noahs ark incident. killing all gods and races except veeshan (and anashti) and only preserving veeshans races, who somehow escaped the plague. world cleansed by plague, but dragonkin survived somehow, like noah surviving in his ark. then starting over with new gods and new races, other councils. but the favorite race is preserved.</blockquote>Where did you hear that Theer slew Xul'Varien? <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=476989" target="_blank">This thread</a> lists the names of the four deity seals in the Theer encounter, and Xul'Varien is not among them. We don't actually know that Xul'Varien died, all Anashti said is that she can no longer feel his presence. That doesn't mean he's dead, he could be sealed away somewhere, or in some other form. Heck, for all we know, Xul'Varien may have been absorbed by Bertoxulous when he came into existence. I think it is important not to assume too much.

The_Cheeseman

08-23-2012, 09:16 PM

I also want to point something out here. I think that some of the shadowed men, at least the ones who served Theer, are Xulos. Notice how Betoxxulous from EQ1 looks in the screenshots on <a href="http://www.everquest.com/news/article?month=032008&id=50865" target="_blank">this page</a>. Pay special attention to the wing-like appendages on his back and the shape and placement of his eyes.Now look at a pic of Munzok:<img src="http://www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/65166/preview" width="640" height="480" />Bertoxxulous chose his form to be that of the Xulos, and he sure looks a LOT like this caste of shadowed men.

Cronyn

08-24-2012, 07:31 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.</blockquote>Just to throw some wood on the fire - Anashti Sul never actually states she's expecting Xul'Varien to be there. She just muses that his presence is gone, and has been replaced by some other guy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

The_Cheeseman

08-24-2012, 09:13 PM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>We certainly do disagree over many points. as for varsoon, you might want to read the RoV quest reward books. they talk about his diseased immortality, along with a host of living-in-agony human experiments lining his walls ("Aliens" motif again).i will concede the timeline is inconsistent(if you take deities as incapable of lying/manipulating mortals). so the conclusions you draw depend on where you start picking up lore tidbits. your conclusions are certainly valid if you start with anashti quotes and work your way from there.what i see as crux of inconsistent is 1) lore from necropolis of lxanvon (placing xulous in/near/before age of scale time period), and 2) anashti saying she didnt know about xulvarien dying. so depending on which piece of lore you start from you arrive at different conclusion.i think anashti not knowing about xulvariens demise and bertox rise needs retcon, or else she was just being coy and feigning ignorance (or outright lying). the necropolis lore says "Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings.".theer certainly did kill xulvarien. he killed atleast 4 former dieties with his godslaying weapons, we have their names, one of which is xulvarien. thats his function in universe, as designed by nameless. slaughter gods of influence when they cause imbalance. something theer would have done to rallos if he had his swords. xulous were kicking dragons butt at the time. probably during age of scale. probably having council of (slain) gods (plus maybe anashti since she was familiar with xulvarien) to seed the planet even before brell knew norrath existed. its almost like a mini-noahs ark incident. killing all gods and races except veeshan (and anashti) and only preserving veeshans races, who somehow escaped the plague. world cleansed by plague, but dragonkin survived somehow, like noah surviving in his ark. then starting over with new gods and new races, other councils. but the favorite race is preserved.xulvarien has to die before bertox is born (coincides with extinction of xulous), which happens before tunaria is known as tunaria. meaning before tunare arrives on planet norrath. order: xulvarien slain, xulous extinct, tunare arrives, elves created, anashti worshipped by elves, anashti tinkers with elves, anashti banished.extinction times for xulvarien is first, then xulous. meaning the race was godless for a time. maybe thats why they turned to ancestor worship. maybe xulvarien infused his divinity into xulous, cuz he didnt want to watch over them, he wanted to take a vacation. thus they were too strong and unmonitored. he abandoned them, which got himself slain while leaving behind a bamf race that was genociding poor veeshans kids. so then an extinction level event for all races except dragonkin--->ultor plague.the only race/deity combo unaccounted for in planar assignments i know of are naiad and their great eye. meaning all former norrathians deities offspring are dead, except naiad (if they are norrathian at all). or are there others? demigods dont count.eq1 clearly proves ultor and bertox are not the same entity. so who was bertox before his ascension? plane of influence deities are either mortals who rise, or are created by elemental deities. ultor is not an elemental deity.if i could offer a possible explanation for events shortly after veeshan deposits first brood: 1 or more prehistoric deities made behemoths, who made dragons look like ants. so dragons are basically in hide mode. then xulous race ferets out the hiding dragons and takes advantage of them. ultors plague cleanses planet, then the rest of age of scale occurs where dragons rule uncontested.</blockquote>I see no reason to believe that Theer was in any way involved in the fate of Xul'Varien. As I said above, I also don't see compelling reason to assume that Xul'Varien died at all. Literally the only fact we have regarding Xul'Varien is that Anashti'Sul didn't sense his presence upon her return to Norrath, and that Bertoxxulous has taken the mantle of Lord of Pestilence.The legend never said that Ultor "created" Bertoxxulous, and in fact, if you read the lore on the EQ1 website, it states that some sages believe the entity Bertoxxulous may have always existed, and the Lxanvon was merely his first emergence into our world. In any case, the legend says that it was the evil in the tomb that brought about Bertoxxulous, not any specific act of Ultor.Anashti'Sul was banished by the pantheon to the void for the offense of introducing undeath to Norrath. Never is it stated anywhere that Theer had anything to do with her or her fate, and indeed I believe Theer was sealed away before Anashti. The legend of Lxanvon clearly mentions rituals used to raise the undead, and therefore Anashti'Sul must have already introduced undeath to Norrath beforehand. Because of this, I believe Anashti was also already sealed in the void during the era of the Xulos (possibly during their existence, before they went all dead-like).The book "Remembrances: Berrox" also recounts the story of Ultor and the king, from the the perspective of the Xulos. It specifically mentions the emergence of a black obelisk in the city, which is what actually motivates the King to seek Ultor's guidance. This means that the Shadowed Men were already active at that point in history, and also leads me to believe that my theory regarding Xulos being among the Shadowed Men is credible.In my opinion, the sealing of Theer in the Void happened before the discovery of Norrath, or possibly at some pre-historic time before the current pantheon was active there. I also believe that Anashti'Sul was banished to the void at some later point, but still before the current crop of gods arrived. We know that Innorruuk used the Ewer of Sul'Dae to create the Ydal in the Plane of Hate, and that they eventually became vampires, a form of undead. Mayong is a member of the Ydal race, and has been specifically called out by devs as older than any of the standard Norrathian races. This means that the Ydal were created before the current gods populated Norrath with their races, and therefore undeath existed before then as well. Given the fact that there were supposedly no factions of mortals on Norrath who even knew of Anashti's existence before the Godking and founding of Aket'Ahken, I think that she was banished to the void either very early in the Age of Scale or possibly even before.Now, one could read the legend of Anashti's banishment to imply that she wasn't held responsible for the existence of undeath as a whole, but specifically bringing it to Norrath. The problem I see is that the cosmology of the Everquest franchise clearly implies the existence of other worlds and deities, but the in-character stories we are given often use "Norrath" as a synonym for "the World" or even the more broad concept of the Universe in general. Heck, we may even be seeing examples of unreliable narrators, who retell their myths set on Norrath even though they actually took place elsewhere.In any case, I firmly believe that Theer was long gone by the time the Xulos rose in the Dead Hills, and very likely so was Anashti'Sul. We have no solid information linking Xul'Varien to the Xulos other than a similar-sounding name, and indeed no information at all about him other than the fact that he isn't around anymore, and the implication that he was once the Lord of Pestilence. Bertoxxulous either spontaneously sprang into existence within the Necropolis of Lxanvon or first emerged into the public eye there. Ultor became the first high priest of Bertoxxulous, and brought forth a plague of diseased undead that, along with the influence of the Void, caused the destruction of the Xulos on Norrath. Bertoxxulous then shifted the entire Necropolis to the Plane of Disease, where it should still exist today (assuming the plane survived at all). I also believe that some remnants of the decimated Xulos now serve Theer among the Shadowed Men (or rather, they did. I'm not sure what the state of the Shadowed Men is now that Theer's plan was thwarted).

ratbast

08-25-2012, 01:24 AM

also considering the timeline (relying on necropolis tunaria comment over anashtis deity timeline comment), the xulous genocide wasnt 100% complete. rodcets first words on arriving in qeynos were a question about xulous and their plague, with the premise that they are planet-hoppers. most likely some xulous escaped thru obelisk back in age of scale and were causing trouble across the universe atleast until rodcets arrival in 'modern' qeynos. and for the pics, yes those shadowmen look like bert (head/back stuff), but his back protusions look more like barbs, not wings. in the movie 'the dark crystal' the main villain is exiled from his wicked avian race, and in his going away ceremony they shred his wings. maybe bert was originally an exiled xulous who sent ultor to infiltrate and destroy society in an act of revenge.

Mixxit

08-25-2012, 09:27 AM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>and for the pics, yes those shadowmen look like bert (head/back stuff), but his back protusions look more like barbs, not wings. in the movie 'the dark crystal' the main villain is exiled from his wicked avian race, and in his going away ceremony they shred his wings. </blockquote>Cronyn just answered part of this in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=521654" target="_blank">another thread</a> Cronyn wrote:<blockquote>Are the shadowed men descended from the Jal'Raeth?<ul><li>So, the Jal'Raeth are a clan of shadowed men, but there are others as well. </li></ul></blockquote><img src="http://loreofnorrath.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jalreath.jpg" width="639" height="444" />I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries

Mixxit

08-25-2012, 09:33 AM

<cite>Cronyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.</blockquote>Just to throw some wood on the fire - Anashti Sul never actually states she's expecting Xul'Varien to be there. She just muses that his presence is gone, and has been replaced by some other guy. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote> “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.”Does that mean that you think Anashti'Sul may have been banished after or with Xul'Varien? When she says 'hmm' is that her sensing bertoxxulous or wondering if xul'varien is here?

Cusashorn

08-25-2012, 10:13 AM

<cite>Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cronyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.</blockquote>Just to throw some wood on the fire - Anashti Sul never actually states she's expecting Xul'Varien to be there. She just muses that his presence is gone, and has been replaced by some other guy. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote> “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.”Does that mean that you think Anashti'Sul may have been banished after or with Xul'Varien? When she says 'hmm' is that her sensing bertoxxulous or wondering if xul'varien is here?</blockquote>Entirely possible.

ratbast

08-25-2012, 06:21 PM

<cite>Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries</blockquote>great idea.my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.

Mixxit

08-25-2012, 07:07 PM

Wilin

08-25-2012, 10:52 PM

With the exception of the newer ties to Kyle and some of the Theer pieces, this mosaic has already been pieced together on this forum years ago even pre-TSO by the old lore hounds.Most of them don't play anymore. I do, but I don't spend any time predicting storylines like I used to.I'm just glad to see that there are still some folks who are still drawn to the rich back story of Norrath.I confess though, I'd like to see more discussion on Age's End as we draw nearer to it.

Mixxit

08-26-2012, 08:43 AM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the exception of the newer ties to Kyle and some of the Theer pieces, this mosaic has already been pieced together on this forum years ago even pre-TSO by the old lore hounds.Most of them don't play anymore. I do, but I don't spend any time predicting storylines like I used to.I'm just glad to see that there are still some folks who are still drawn to the rich back story of Norrath.I confess though, I'd like to see more discussion on Age's End as we draw nearer to it.</blockquote>the old threads were definitely useful in checking some of the backstory particularly on the eq1 boards in relation to the jal'raeth and xulous - although I did notice quite a lot of people refering to the xulous as not from antonica so i did my best here to reference all my sources so you could see you were looking at the facts rather than conjecture although i'm not saying that what certain npcs and books in game aren't a lie!take for example the thread at the moment about the prisoner in the plane of justice - you could say that he, being someone held up in the plane of justice for crimes his race cannot feel fit to judge, speaks also of an untrustworthy troll who betrayed him - both of the sources in those quotes are unreliable from an investigators perspective!

Cusashorn

08-26-2012, 11:31 AM

<cite>Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ragnaphore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?</blockquote>There's no clear answer (yet).Ultor's defeat in CoD is cannon for sure. Whether or not he was definitly destroyed in the battle is anyone guess. (A very powerful undead priest "killed" in a place chock-full of necromantic magic and which is also the heart of his god's powers... Would you realy bet, he won't come back ?)</blockquote>Remember that time was reversed by Druzzil Ro to just before we invaded the Planes of Power so we haven't defeated him in this timelineBut i am not sure what has happened to the Plane of Disease, it probably collapsed like the other planes and then a shard was created on Bertoxxulous's return - maybe ultor and the crypt is in it i am not sure</blockquote>Time was reversed just before we invaded the Plane of Time, not the entire planes of power entirely.

The_Cheeseman

08-27-2012, 12:30 AM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.</blockquote>I think your making an awful lot of totally unfounded assumptions regarding the "rules" of deityhood, of which we really have never been given any information at all. Where did you get all of these ideas, anyway? They're certainly not from any existing Everquest lore that I am familiar with, and I've been playing EQ for 12 years.

ratbast

08-27-2012, 03:05 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.</blockquote>I think your making an awful lot of totally unfounded assumptions regarding the "rules" of deityhood, of which we really have never been given any information at all. Where did you get all of these ideas, anyway? They're certainly not from any existing Everquest lore that I am familiar with, and I've been playing EQ for 12 years.</blockquote>i was not presenting assumptions/guesses as fact, just possibility. and its based on events and how things play out, instead of discretely comminicated rules. its based on the creation stories and events of history.i dont think unfounded is the right word either. there is a pattern of how things are done. higher order entities create lower order life. nameless->elemental gods->influence gods->races. the idea mortals can create deities is itself backwards. there are 3 known cases of mortals creating deity. 2 are ascension of sentient mortals. the 3rd in question here is unknown. saying it required a sentience is not unfounded. its following the known pattern for the process. (edit: also zek was replaced by triumvate consisting of sullon who was originally a mere mortal. so thats give rodcet process, bertox process, zeb process, and hounds of war--arguably all requiring sentience in recipe)All this to say i think bertox wasnt created out of thin air.if you dont like speculation, you probalby wont like anything i have to say. what is known is known. rehashing is boring. the only source of new facts is devs. not us. ofc i wont be able to discover a new fact. what i find fun is extrapolating trajectories from tidbits and trying to solve ruleset. based on your post i doubt you would have competing theories, just frustration i would go there. but there is a rich story of soul(or essence) permanence in everquest, which i have watched and paid attention to. the rough theories i have arrived at have 2 basic types of life. eternal, whose existence doesnt begin or end in this verse (flow of souls and all), and what i would call clone. clone life begin here as well as ending here, barring they dont magically get soul from pinochios japeto type procedure. its also possible that each plane has its own (local sub-verse) soul factory for clones, so clones can go to heaven with their creating deity after their normal lifespan, planar paradise, but not till yonder, just a heaven for their creating deity in their sub-verse. for an eternal sentience to be relegated to a subverse paradise would be hell. a complete failure to realize their potential to move on. eternal entities originate elsewhere in another verse and are destined to continue onward. my theory is that even the influence deities go till yonder(properly anthropomorphized), dont think elemental are so lucky tho, they are clone: a local fixture born of necessity (not properly anthropormophized). which is why kerafyrm killing zek wouldnt destroy universe (theer has done that multiple times), but killing an elemental deity would be like breaking a leg off a table, causing verse to collapse or explode/whatever.i know some planar creations are like hollow echoes, seen earth elemental in sundered frontier like that. they dont have a soul period.almost all planar entities (all planes except hero), including demigods that are flesh offspring of gods, are clone. they can be completely anihilated. norrathian heroes cannot be anihilated, only bodily destroyed and sent till yonder.where it gets murky for me is contrasting the nature of standard bodily offspring (typically demigods, as opposed to work of their hands) and ydal. ydal were truly "flesh and blood" of deity, and designed to house eternal souls passing thru this existence. they are an abomination of demigod and sentience. (my hunch is that bodily offspring demigods are not their own sentience, rather an essence fragment chipped off the deiteis own, and without soul.) so the hounds of war, being elevated mortals(atleast sullon), had their own sentience before becoming a triumvate, and fully vested as influence deity.so in my theory, aviaks in plane of air are clones, and soulless like amyg (limited edition print), valkyries, and many more. but if they successfully reproduce with a deity created mortal (standard hero race), can spawn a new sentient halfbreed race (hero plane instantiations being what we know as minotaurs etc, sentient, mortal, and can reproduce). extraplanar beings are kinda like fallen angels who cant procreate without their gods permission diluting their power. consider an aviak is a planar creature, from air. yet they do not qualify as an elemental. not for LnL, not for anything. but they are from plane of air? imo aviaks we know today in hero plane are halfbreeds (sentient, mortal, can reproduce) unlike planar aviaks who are clone.id like to hear more lore about how influence deities created their races, to speculate about what went wrong with ydal. the idea of using a single drop of blood sounds more like a single demigod creation or limited edition clone race creation such as amyg.i think themes of controlled/gated reproduction are great for storytelling. its such a powerful feature of life. powerhungry tyrants would love to take it from commoners, ie influence deities and their planar races and the law that exists in their realms. ofc tunare would tell them to multiply like jackrabbits.the creation themes are all about reproduction, its the whole study of the gods and their whole interest. brell being a sneaky bastage and doing it multiple times. gods are happy to see their creations proliferate on norrath, but i dont think thats par for their home plane. they gotta be the boss and run things, run a tight ship. thus the limited edition influence-planar races.my theories make the norrathian universe look elegant to me and explain many of the events. it also really opens up opportunities for new playable races (amyg halfbreed).

The_Cheeseman

08-27-2012, 10:51 PM

I can respect the desire to speculate, but I would urge you to clearly denote your speculation as such. There is a fine line between speculation and fanfiction, and if you are familiar with such past examples such as the "Prophecy of Trakanon" those kinds of stories can cause significant confusion in lore discussions, sometimes for years.

Mixxit

08-27-2012, 11:24 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can respect the desire to speculate, but I would urge you to clearly denote your speculation as such. There is a fine line between speculation and fanfiction, and if you are familiar with such past examples such as the "Prophecy of Trakanon" those kinds of stories can cause significant confusion in lore discussions, sometimes for years.</blockquote>especially when most of it ended up sort of true!

Cusashorn

08-31-2012, 12:55 AM

<cite>Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can respect the desire to speculate, but I would urge you to clearly denote your speculation as such. There is a fine line between speculation and fanfiction, and if you are familiar with such past examples such as the "Prophecy of Trakanon" those kinds of stories can cause significant confusion in lore discussions, sometimes for years.</blockquote>especially when most of it ended up sort of true!</blockquote>Except that it didn't.

Mixxit

08-31-2012, 01:18 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can respect the desire to speculate, but I would urge you to clearly denote your speculation as such. There is a fine line between speculation and fanfiction, and if you are familiar with such past examples such as the "Prophecy of Trakanon" those kinds of stories can cause significant confusion in lore discussions, sometimes for years.</blockquote>especially when most of it ended up sort of true!</blockquote>Except that it didn't.</blockquote>Except it did (and i did say sort of)*Edit for quote from prophecy*The End of an AgeNow we sit in the final hour awaiting the second war of the gods to come to pass. With the coming of the Warlord will lead to the fate of Trakanon and the ascencion of the fourth hero of prophecy. It is here the world will burn as the sleeper walks.I guess the guy who wrote Prophecy of Trakanon/EQRPG finally got his story in to the end game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Jait

08-31-2012, 02:23 AM

Yeah, not to mention that was written during EQ1s beta, and just happens to mention places and mobs that none of us had heard of. It first floated around when we only had about 4 zones total to play in.

Meirril

09-04-2012, 12:26 PM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alluvial@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries</blockquote>great idea.my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.</blockquote>Wait! Dieties of Influence come into existance, they don't need a source. Case in point: while some gods of influence were created (like the Marr twins), a lot of them have no origin. Brell, Cazic, Innoruuk, Tunare, Veeshan and many others don't have "parents" and wern't "mortals" before they came into existance. They just *are*. The Nameless created the Elemental Dieties. The Elemental Dieties created the gods of influence...but not all of them. I belive the universe creates dieties to fill voids of power. Either some being is placed to accept that power, or the power creates a being to embody it. As new influences rise in power, so new Dieties of Influence are either placed or created. (such as Nightmares, Dreams and Insanity)

ratbast

09-04-2012, 02:13 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dieties of Influence come into existance, they don't need a source. Case in point: while some gods of influence were created (like the Marr twins), a lot of them have no origin. Brell, Cazic, Innoruuk, Tunare, Veeshan and many others don't have "parents" and wern't "mortals" before they came into existance. They just *are*. The Nameless created the Elemental Dieties. The Elemental Dieties created the gods of influence...but not all of them. I belive the universe creates dieties to fill voids of power. Either some being is placed to accept that power, or the power creates a being to embody it. As new influences rise in power, so new Dieties of Influence are either placed or created. (such as Nightmares, Dreams and Insanity)</blockquote>interesting idea. do you have any references to support that theory? i could never find any. from known creation stories i threw that theory out.there is a gnome archeologist theory that behemoths sprang into existance, like mana infused evolution. im unfamiliar with deities doing this, or any credible source. (archeologist speculations by flighty race about distant past might not be best testimony)i would attribute the 'just are' feeling to them being immortal sentience, originating outside this verse like heroes. possibly even having prestige(or notoriety) trailing them like "clouds of glory" from the previous reality. that foreknowledge trickling down from nameless to elemental gods & theer, then scraps to influence deities, and in some version to mortal races.i think the planes themselves create life, but just soulless clone versions. i imagine the planes as entities of their own, but they dont create their own ruler (imo). that implies a more active awareness with power to reject.if they did create their own ruler, why did tarrew marr make erolissi and mithaniel? that would be extremely activist on his part. elemental gods are known for noninterference and "passivism".(nightmare/dream/insanity) personally i wouldnt usually call demiplanes rulers 'gods of influence'. is pluto really a planet? they are demigods, and vassals to their master, that is not godlike. imo demiplanes can either be filled or not. at discretion of its jurisdictions master. its a subrealm they can place "magistrate" over or own themself at their whim. you know any case where demigod is not beholden to its base plane god? i think its an auxilliary room at the influence deities office. he can promote someone to rule that room or just maintain his absolute rulership of the entire building, either way. demigods have bosses to answer to.if you know of something that contradicts my theory let me know so i can start building a case to overturn it. 1 single case would have to be very strong to do that singlehandedly, but i collect smaller inconsistencies that start creating cracks too.

mikegonz

10-06-2012, 08:09 PM

I wanted to share some of the information I came across while playing EQOA if its helpful to the discussion. Tal’Thex Apparently in the Dead Hills sits the city or Pagoda of Tal’Thex, a vault containing many of the dark arts held by the elves, or Dal. References to this can be seen in EQOA among a quest involving a ghost in Envar <a href="http://www.crypticsouls.ca/valkanith.htm">http://www.crypticsouls.ca/valkanith.htm</a> , as well as in EQ2 via this lore here in Maj’Dul. <a href="http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/1001-tales-of-majdul-the-tale-of-malahkt/">http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/...ale-of-malahkt/</a> . This vault was pursued in EQOA by a being known as Sarek the Betrayer. All the lore on him, Geomancer’s Citadel, Geomancer’s Pass and the Anvil of Sarek can be found here. This also mentions the Jal’raeth as “gray beings” and refers to Envar. It’s pretty lengthy, but it does give a ton of insight into the Dead Hills and Lake Rathe areas, as well as the Ogres of the time. <a href="http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=234474&ForumID=1820168&TabID=1974163&Replies=1&TopicID=9481404">http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.as...TopicID=9481404</a> Envar Envar was a city that existed to the south of the Dead Hills. Apparently, it was near the city described as the Pagoda of Tal’Thex based on the previously mentioned lore. It may also be interesting to note one of the mobs in Envar was named Tal’Thir, and was a mummy (from my own experience in game). I’m implying this based on the aforementioned info, but I’m not sure if this is the truth. As described in the Sarek the Betrayer Lore, the Jal’Raeth lived in the tomb city of Envar. The scouting parties returned with stories of black sand coasts of the Deadhills. Many of the parties were decimated with but a handful from each returning. The survivors told stories of rolling hills along the black coasts peppered with crypts for miles. Undead roamed openly, killing any outsiders they came across by overwhelming them in sheer number of zombies and skeletons. The farthest of the search parties that tracked the path of Sarek's southern column believe they saw the Pagoda of Tal`Thex, a huge stone complex with a towering stone obelisk in the center. The complex was surrounded by legions of undead, and strange floating creatures. The ghosts and ghouls surrounding the hills were so thick the search parties couldn't get close enough to see the creatures outright but they were unknown, floating grey beings with runes circling their bodies. Not Ogre, and not elven, they could not press forward through more of the undead to learn more without suffering the loss of their units entirely Envar in EQOA had lots of undead and was surrounded by four towers. There were four entrances that each had a gargoyle in each entrance. The basements of Envar had nothing but Jal’Raeth and undead, and if you “ascended” to the top of the obelisks, you found a number of other Jal’raeth, as well as a special one known as the Prophet Envar, as shown below. Not much lore was ever given on him, but the questline did grant Wizards, Druids, and Necromancers an ability called Envaric Ascension, which would port parties to the top of Envar. <a href="http://www.crypticsouls.ca/envaric.htm">http://www.crypticsouls.ca/envaric.htm</a> . Other similar abilities to related quests for all three classes include another port to the Dead Hills called Astal Displacement (with a quest entirely in Envar), and a cure for all healers and necromancers called Envaric Salve. <img src="http://www.crypticsouls.ca/images/PoE%20meditating%20after%20his%20death.jpg" width="640" height="427" /> Jal’Raeth Incase this wasn’t made clear in any previous posts, the Jal’Raeth described in EQOA were a race of immortal beings who could not die. Because they were incapable of experiencing death itself, they performed experiments on creatures in attempts to understand death. Thus, they would constantly kill and reanimate beings in such attempts. As Cronyn stated, the Jal’raeth were a clan of shadow men. This would imply that the obelisk as described in Sarek’s lore was an obelisk of the shadowed men. Thus, Envar itself was this obelisk, considering this was the only one, and the Jal’Raeth are clearly described.

mikegonz

10-06-2012, 08:11 PM

Continuing...Lxanvom and Berrox The stories of Remembrances Berrox and The Crypt of Lxanvom imply the Xulous were betrayed by Ultor to give rise to Bertoxxulous. We’ve discussed its possible that Bertoxxulous always existed, but its interesting to note he manifests in the tombs of the dead kings of the Xulous. We previously have established the Jal’Raeth cannot die, so it would seem that the Xulous cannot be the shadow men or the Jal’Raeth. Thus, these cities could potentially be other races, or the race of elves who live near the Pagoda of Tal’Thex. This could be why in Berrox, they are so intrigued by the obelisk that so recently appeared. Undeath As mentioned, and as Cronyn confirmed, Anashti doesn’t expect to sense Xul’varien, just muses he’s gone, and so is intrigued by this Bertoxxulous. As Bertoxxulous embraces necromancy and undeath, I wouldn’t expect Xul’varien to view it as such a negative either. It’s quite possible that Anashti and Xul’varien both introduced undeath to Norrath somehow, or played a joint part, and were BOTH banished as a result, potentially separately. Who knows why, but that could give reason why she notes Xul’varien’s absence. This is all speculation of course. Last Home and Bertoxxulous In EQOA, a plague began at one point with the introduction of the plane of disease. A series of quests were introduced, along with a portal in the Dead Hills to enter Last Home, or the Plane of Disease as known in EQOA, where the Springview Healers resided at the Springview Sanitarium. Elaboration on these guys were never given beyond the entrance quests. In the lore, it was stated that in one specific tomb was the dimensional rift weak enough for people to cross across the planes. It’s likely this is the tomb that Ultor brought the Xulous king. Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous Appearances Comparing with the Jal’Raeth or shadowmen, Rodcet and Bert look pretty similar in general… however, whether they are Xulous, Shadowmen, or if these are both remains a mystery. It’s interesting that Rodcet, as mentioned previously, questions if the Xulous brought their plague to Norrath. Furthermore, Bert carries the Xulous name in his own. This must be for a specific reason, and likely has some connection to this plague they brought with them, aside from the fact he destroyed them as a race.Name connections In addition, Xul’Varien shares the “Xul” in his name, where as Anashti has a “Sul” in her own. I’m willing to bet this was no mere coincidence, especially based on the fact that BOTH the God of Healing and God of Pestilence were replaced by individuals who look similar to the Jal’Raeth/Shadowmen. Finally, isn’t it odd that the obelisk in the Dead Hils region (Envar) has a prophet at the top named Envar, which sounds reminiscent of Xul’Varien? Likely no connection, but who knows. Looking at the base names of each diety: First, Anashti is very similar to the name Ashanti, which in hindi means unrest, disturbance, unquietly, which pretty well aligns with the undeath she brought upon Norrath. As for the name Varien, it’s similar to the Celtic translation “of the green hill”, but also means “changeable” in latin.Seems to fit what you say on the Theer raid encounter. <cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence.</blockquote>

Rainmare

10-07-2012, 04:11 AM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dieties of Influence come into existance, they don't need a source. Case in point: while some gods of influence were created (like the Marr twins), a lot of them have no origin. Brell, Cazic, Innoruuk, Tunare, Veeshan and many others don't have "parents" and wern't "mortals" before they came into existance. They just *are*. The Nameless created the Elemental Dieties. The Elemental Dieties created the gods of influence...but not all of them. I belive the universe creates dieties to fill voids of power. Either some being is placed to accept that power, or the power creates a being to embody it. As new influences rise in power, so new Dieties of Influence are either placed or created. (such as Nightmares, Dreams and Insanity)</blockquote>interesting idea. do you have any references to support that theory? i could never find any. from known creation stories i threw that theory out.there is a gnome archeologist theory that behemoths sprang into existance, like mana infused evolution. im unfamiliar with deities doing this, or any credible source. (archeologist speculations by flighty race about distant past might not be best testimony)i would attribute the 'just are' feeling to them being immortal sentience, originating outside this verse like heroes. possibly even having prestige(or notoriety) trailing them like "clouds of glory" from the previous reality. that foreknowledge trickling down from nameless to elemental gods & theer, then scraps to influence deities, and in some version to mortal races.i think the planes themselves create life, but just soulless clone versions. i imagine the planes as entities of their own, but they dont create their own ruler (imo). that implies a more active awareness with power to reject.if they did create their own ruler, why did tarrew marr make erolissi and mithaniel? that would be extremely activist on his part. elemental gods are known for noninterference and "passivism".(nightmare/dream/insanity) personally i wouldnt usually call demiplanes rulers 'gods of influence'. is pluto really a planet? they are demigods, and vassals to their master, that is not godlike. imo demiplanes can either be filled or not. at discretion of its jurisdictions master. its a subrealm they can place "magistrate" over or own themself at their whim. you know any case where demigod is not beholden to its base plane god? i think its an auxilliary room at the influence deities office. he can promote someone to rule that room or just maintain his absolute rulership of the entire building, either way. demigods have bosses to answer to.if you know of something that contradicts my theory let me know so i can start building a case to overturn it. 1 single case would have to be very strong to do that singlehandedly, but i collect smaller inconsistencies that start creating cracks too.</blockquote>no life is 'enternal' on Norrath save perhaps lycans and vampires. just becuase you respawn doesn't mean your enternal.we mortals die, and we go to our to Ethernere, and then to wherever. you respawning is a game mechanic, not a lore one.the beings in the Planes are very much explained as heroes/creatures created by said deity. Paladins/Clerics of Mithaniel make up the soldiers of valor you see in his plane. dark elves make up a good bit of the minions in EQ1 Hate, and all the named in Eq2 hate save the sisters and Byzola (who was a minion of Fear that got trapped there) are DEs/vampiric.that's why Xegony's favored race, the Aviak, is all over her realm. why the plane of water is filled with sea life.the Demi-planes..your right. they don't HAVE to be seperate planes, but they are gods of infuence. Terris may not be as powerful as Cazic, but she is the utter master of her realm, and she can influence people through it with, or without, dad's consent.We've seen Morelle do things we know daddy wouldn't approve of. Helping Mithaniel, stealing his gift of creation (that led to barbs and frogloks that eventually rose to free Mithaniel from Terris/Cazic/Inny) if he wasn't a god of influence in his own right, Cazic coudl have just waved his hand and stopped him.Some of the Demigods were mortals. some were created by the gods. for example, Quellious and Cazic worked together to make Morelle and Terris, to divide the realm of Dreams between them. Morelle got the 'good' dreams, and Terris got nightmares.we know Envy was Lanys given godhood by inny. Insanity was Vazelle from Cazic. Serenity was Wu from Quellious. and when these planes were reabsorbed, we know that those dieties in charge could be spared, serving as powerful agents in the 'master' plane. Master Wu is the prime example of that.Though the evil races we're aware of, we know that Lanys, without a plane, is still 'existing' the SK epic tells us that, and the original puporse of the SK epic (Until players rework it) was to empower Layns with every kill to grant her strength ot manifest herself/her realm again despite Inny.We know that Rallos is bested by Tallon/Vallon/Sullon in combat and outright killed. demi-gods as they maybe, they are still gods, and even Rallos can't just flat out unmake them...even in his own Plane. He took Sullon and made her a 'demi-god' after she nearly kicked his rear as a mortal. and she did kick his rear as a demigod.the minions that you fight in PoW are not souless clones of the plane. they are heroes. even the animals are not mindless things. Rallos worshippers that serve him in War after thier mortal deaths. the Ring war is Heaven for the souls of the Kromzek/Kromrif....hell for the Coldain. even though Brell says they must endure it so that the spirits of the giants don't overrun Thurgadin.While the gods can reabsorb the Demi-planes, and thus negate thier 'offsprings' power...it seems like reabsorbing a plane is a lot of work and effort on thier part, and not something they can do just on a whim. and also not something that thier 'offspring' can't counter. (the quests during the Heroe's Festival point very highly that it's Morelle Thule we're helping, even though his plane is believed to have been absorbed/see Lanys example as well) they have to have a serious threat to thier own realm to take back a 'lesser' one into the fold...and even then it's not something that they can do say, mid battle. it takes too much effort/concentration. (again, this is something Rallos would have done against his kids at the first hint of being in a losing fight)as there are several deities that would probably have gotten taken out by this method already if it was so simply as 'give that back'.if Fennin coudl revoke Soluesk Ro's deityhood I'm sure he would have for that little stunt with the Dresolisk stone. and I bet Cazic would have with Morelle the second he attempted to thwart his plans for Mithaniel. and I think part of that misconception is the fact they are called 'Demi-gods' and 'Demi-planes' when they should probably just be 'Sub-planes' and 'Sub-deities'. No less Gods, just ruling a carved out 'portion' of a greater plane.They also stated in Eq2, that even us mortals killing the gods in thier own realms didn't destory them. we merely destroyed thier manifestations. So it seems only another god can truly kill one of thier own, or Theer with his twin swords. So I don't think the Elemental Gods have anything to fear, and are also not 'clones' or souless. they have emotion, desires, devices all thier own. Fennin is not called a Tyrant for sake of a neat title. he is that egostisital and sociopathic when it comes to Fire and all things derived of it that are under his 'realm'. Each member of the Rathe Council has it's own thoughts and such, or there woudl be no need for 12 of them. Xegony takes great joy in all flying creatures and the air itself. and offers her blessings and the gift of flight to those races, creatures, and people she deems worthy. there are several creatures in Norrath that only fly becuase she has given them her blessing to do so. (you learn that in the fae/arasai flight quest)I think if say, Fennin were to be destroyed...it wouldn't be like cutting off a table leg. in fact there's no evidence to say that Theer wasn't capable of taking one of them out if he saw a need to. I think if Fennin was destroyed..someone like Soluesk Ro, or Druzzil, or Varig would simply 'ascend' to take his place. Much like when Rallos was destroyed..his kids divided his power/realm between them and became the Triumverate of War.though out of the elementals, only 2 have created offspring that we know of. Fennin begat Soulsek, and we know Tarew begat Mithaniel and Erollisi. we don;t know if the Rathe or Xegony had/have any diety offspring...but for all we know they may have. some god we know about but havent seen. like Thoxule Paells or Torvonnlius. (Lust and Greed respectively) or heck for all we know Brell is a son of the Rathe. or Veeshaan a daughter to Xegony.

Meirril

10-07-2012, 05:36 AM

Rezikai

10-07-2012, 10:37 PM

<cite>mikegonz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last Home and Bertoxxulous In EQOA, a plague began at one point with the introduction of the plane of disease. A series of quests were introduced, along with a portal in the Dead Hills to enter Last Home, or the Plane of Disease as known in EQOA, where the Springview Healers resided at the Springview Sanitarium. Elaboration on these guys were never given beyond the entrance quests. In the lore, it was stated that in one specific tomb was the dimensional rift weak enough for people to cross across the planes. It’s likely this is the tomb that Ultor brought the Xulous king.</blockquote>The speculation weather or not the Last Home was the tomb of the Xulous king is... improbable.The lore of the Last Home was actually in EQoA only a VERY short time before being removed. It was barely introduced and only good alligned characters who completed the "spell" lead-in quest before SOE added the Plane of Disease entrance quest (the one most people were aware of) were ever able to read it AND on top of that it was very inconspicuous and easy pass.The story.. (as I remember as I being an evil rogue that built enough faction with Surefall glade to do both good and evil sides of the spell quests) was told by the and Unkempt Druid Elder...who in eqoa was an NPC Barbarian Druid.. which was a race/class combo not available to players which i guess was the reason for folks to be interested to talk to him, though many skipped passed him (no feathers for quests in that game you had to hail everything) and returned home.So.. as my old rogue memory recalls the Unkempt Druid Elders story...*turns the old tomes page*Long ago in ancient times when Tunaria was young, a great plague errupted throughout the land. It tore through man and beast alike. The races of Tunaria went to their healers and shamans for cures but even the greatest of druid magics were unable to best this blight. As the races tried to combat this plague great facilities were errected to house the dying and infected. These Sanitariums were created across the mid-continent to help those races beguiled by the spreading disease. However these great houses of healing fought a loosing battle. One by one each home fighting the blight fell to the plague and were themselves no longer safe to travel to. All fell but one, one home of healing remained the Springview Sanitarium.Survivors of the plague and those still seeking shelter for their infection in it's walls called the Springview Sanitarium the Last Home. As it was the last of the great Sanitariums that had fought so hard against the plague. In its desperate struggle the Last Home saw it's physician's fight the disease with all the healers and medicines they had but it was not enough. Soon the end was near for the Springview Sanitarium. Then in a twist of irony the doctors and healers of the Last Home would turn to the one god they could to stop the disease the master of disease himself Bertoxxulous.He offered them salvation from the "mysterious" blight across Tunaria. But the cost would be a heavy one. He would halt the disease in exchange for the Last Home's lives. The lives of the sick and dying would be his, the lives of the doctors and healers would bequeath all for him and become his dark followers. The surgeons and doctors, druids and shamans of the Last home after a hard contemplation agreed and Bertoxxulous unleashed a mist that covered the Springview Sanitarium and the surrounding countryside. In this last penance to pay Bertoxxulous would take not only the souls of the Springview Sanitariums lives but take the Last Home itself as he translocated the entire sanitarium itself to the plane of disease. Now when the hooded men in dark robes appear from time to time across Norrath, weary and dread follow. As once in ancient times they were held in high regard as healers they are rumored to be minions of the god of disease.*Closes the tome*some fan-fic-ish melo-drama was added for emphasis... but very little to the above.

mikegonz

10-08-2012, 01:46 AM

<cite>Rezikai wrote:</cite><blockquote>The speculation weather or not the Last Home was the tomb of the Xulous king is... improbable.</blockquote>I didn't mean Last Home was the tomb of the Xulous kings, but that location of the portals to Last Home from the Dead Hills was most likely one of them. If I remember correctly, there was a group of three tombs, with the center one having the portal the led directly to Last Home.I remember those prelude quests, specifically the one for the PoD spells. I wish I remember the connection to Toxxulia as well, as I remember having to raid down the dungeon to kill one specific mob for a drop. I was an dark elf necromancer, so I never saw the good version of the spell quest.