Open World PVP

[motherofmoon]

<p>Remove BG from Nagafen server.</p><p>Create random Quest givers in open world hot zones that give writs to kill mobs and or players or both, or have random mob kills give the quest/writ have the rewards be tokens.Once the quest is accepted you are unable to fly.Reduce immunity and recent timers once quest is accepted.</p><p>Warfield is fine the way it is every other hour.</p><p>Create best of best competition like eq1. rewards will be a title</p><p>No rewards for raid pvp.</p><p>No rewards for exile faction.</p><p>If you have any ideas or comments about how to improve open world pvp please share your thoughts. I think sony has given a honest effort to try to improve on pvp and will continue to do so if given the proper feedback needed to do so.</p><p>Please keep on topic. this is not a debate about what class is op at the moment only on how to create more open world pvp.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Baackdoor]

<p>why would you remove exile faction? bad idea is bad.</p><p>And really? killing mobs gives tokens? no. just go away.</p>

[motherofmoon]

<p><cite>Baackdoor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>why would you remove exile faction? bad idea is bad.</p><p>And really? killing mobs gives tokens? no. just go away.</p></blockquote><p>Insted of telling me how bad my ideas are come up with some ideas of your own and post somthing positve!</p><p>The idea is for a random mob to drop the writ! The writ includes killing other players and a number of mobs that may be spread across the zone so players are all over the zones and this might reduce zergs!</p><p>And i said no rewards for exile faction not get rid of them!</p>

[Tonzo]

<p>Give us writs back.. Get rewards from Killing people openworld, like its meant to be first of.</p><p>Best of Best Contest, would be great. Like said, you guys did it in eq1, and a actual pvp contest would be so much more giving than an Aether race, or gm's handing out candy in Mors. (Server/world wide) 1vs1 and 6vs6</p><p>Bg should be no reward on Naggy tbh, has nothing to do with pvp.</p><p>Remove Raid PvP rewards. Maybee make exile so they dont need to raid. </p><p>SoE you guys have made the best game ever here, but why are you moving from your basic. Keep doing what you guys rock at. Thats making Quests, new content, new myths, and so on.</p><p>Pls stop wasting time on minigames, soe emote stuff, and get back to what you are world nr1 at... Make EQ2 Content.</p>

[Brucethegreat]

<p>I agree with these suggestions. BGs have ruined open world PVP to point that there are few if any pvp fights anymore. For those who hunt fot it, it doesn't exist. People don't quest. harvest, or adventure anymore. They spend almost all there time in BGs. A PVP server should not need big gimmics like BGs to get gear and fight opponents, it should be natural like it was before BGs were introduced. I chose a PVP server to get that thrill of combat as I jouney thru the zones not from some special place that does the same thing over and over again. Give our server a chance to stand out separate from PVE servers please. At least consider the first item if we get more things later that would only make it better.</p>

[motherofmoon]

<p>pvp is so much more than just being cast into a bg with the hope that you might get a healer! nobody would go into a raid zone with one healer and no tank! BG is not pvp! pvp is not scripted and is full of excitment trying to gain an advantage over a well seasoned solo pvper or group of pvpers is about who knows when and how to gain that advantage with quick thinking strats  and knowing your class as well as knowing other classes and what move they might make next to kill you! sony has the best game world wide in this aspect imo and can be once again a open world bloodbath of highly skilled quick thinkers that bring pvp to a much higher standard than what is offered in battlegrounds!</p><p> I hope that all of you true pvpers agree with me that nagafen is no place for BG that well played solo pvp and well put together groups in pvp is what we should all strive for on this server! so lets help sony help us! give good and well thought out ideas on how to get open world pvp back on its feet!</p><p>after all would it hurt so bad to have one true pvp server with no BG available? if BG is that important than you, then you have all the blue servers to choose after its all said and done where you can BG till your blue in the face!</p>

[Umeil]

<p>There will be no more world PvP in this game. SOE does not make content to encourge it  everything is safely tucked away in uncontested zones. That will not change so pretty much this is a pointless thread and a pointless argument</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Mercs still need to be disabled once a hostile action is taken in pvp - UD healer mercs still heal quite effectivelly.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p>Correcting the bg's ruined blah blah statement, WF started it all, the mindless pvping of massive amounts of players who got gear and could care less if they died over and over as long as they had tokens, once they got all they needed they got bored. The kp zerge murdered the fun of previous pvp. PvP servers died before Bg's even existed. I agree naggy could do without it, but players not are so used to the mindless playing that the idea of not having some easy route out of getting gear would more than likely kill the player base worse. People got to face most players can't pvp outside of WF's. They have tottaly forgot how to go someone by themselve's. They don't like to earn rewards the hard way, that's why half of naggy is in qeynos right now. The confidence level is horrible right now with players. You log on to a pvp server and see people who can't cure dots, they carry 0 pots, they don't even use totems. It all has become mindless to the point the players are screaming my way or I'll go to a blue server. </p><p>If they actually added some content to all zones that players wanted to get and kept it contested maybe you might get open world pvp. If people stopped getting rewards for out numbering people when they killed them you might find someone solo to fight running around. Don't allow Bg gear to work in pvp, and don't allow pvp gear to work in Bg's, because you know sony is not going to take them out.</p><p>It's not all soe, you got players all over the place when wf's come up, but its always one sided, and these same players don't even budge out the guild hall until Wf times, because they know if they don't have a group someone is going to kill them. Take the coward out the players, add reasons to actually be in open world, and give pvp writs 60 tokens per writ so maybe people will do that instead of bg's.</p>

[minimite]

<p>The end all be all is Naggy is a PvP server. End of story....We all have the option to choose PvP or PVE server.....By adding BG's to the ONLY PvP server left in EQ2 they have taken away true PvP and the excitement that goes along with it. Not to mention it has ruined other aspects of the game as well, such as questing. Most true PvP'er can't stand to quest but would do so because you were gauranteed to run into PvP of some sort. Not now. Everything has been made so easy that there is no need to.I remember the days when you had to get a group together to complete the easiest of quest because you never knew when you would run into PvP. It was part of the thrill of this game. You never see people questing and enjoying the content of the game anymore. To me its a bit sad as there is so much more to  EQ2. When you do see the occasional adventuer its because of epics,myths or access quests . I agree SOE has the best MMO out there and through the years they have made steps to improve the game. However I feel they have failed those true PvP'ers out there! I am so sick of hearing people on blue servers complain about the advantages they think those of us on PvP server have. This has caused SOE to make so many changes that PvP is now ruined and the only way we will get it back is by removing BG's from the PvP server. If the blue servers want PvP  then they can join the PvP server or BG. But give us PvP servers back our PvP, we DO NOT want the BG's. Because the way things have been done it has become the only option for PvP and that is a sad fact. As far as warfields go, I think they to would be more successful in generating PvP if there was a better reward system and we didn't have the BG's. Warfields bring about PvP, even during a time when PvP is dry and its a heck of a lot better than a BG. I would rather have the zerg fests of the KP days then BG's any day. I am not saying that is the  answer but the zerg fest's were hell of a lot more fun than a BG on its best day.There is so much that can be done with warfields and the reward system that that I believe would generate solid PvP population.  For example why not have a quest giver that gives you a daily quest for the PvP/ warfield hot zone and in order to be in the warfields for that day you must completed the quest. That will generate PvP within zones while questing as well as get people more involved in the content of the game..The reward could be a number of things related to PvP, tokens,gear,specail potions or abilities good just for PvP again the options are endless. All PvP'ers need to band together on this and try to get SOE's attention. Rather than bashing each others ideas and being rude. Lets try to find away to spin this around and save a game that is going to die if SOE doesn't wake up and see what is going on.I am not saying my idea is the absolute answer. There are endless ways to make this better. But the start  would be removing BG's from the PvP server. For those who whine about it, well they can transfer there toons to blue servers and BG until the cows come home. Just my opinion!</p>

[Riny]

<p>I dont have access to game metrics, but if i had to guess, BGs does not help with OWPvP. I like the idea of quests that require toons to "be in the world" but doubt that could work only on a pvp server. Anyone have an idea how these new pocket dungeons are affecting finding targets? I dont do them so not really sure how they work.</p><p>I would have to agree that the early days of Naggy were the best. Given that, i am worried that further SOE attempts to "fix" PVP will just result in more poor execution.</p>

[Kaldram]

<p><cite>minimite wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The end all be all is Naggy is a PvP server. End of story....We all have the option to choose PvP or PVE server.....By adding BG's to the ONLY PvP server left in EQ2 they have taken away true PvP and the excitement that goes along with it. Not to mention it has ruined other aspects of the game as well, such as questing. Most true PvP'er can't stand to quest but would do so because you were gauranteed to run into PvP of some sort. Not now. Everything has been made so easy that there is no need to.I remember the days when you had to get a group together to complete the easiest of quest because you never knew when you would run into PvP. It was part of the thrill of this game. You never see people questing and enjoying the content of the game anymore. To me its a bit sad as there is so much more to  EQ2. When you do see the occasional adventuer its because of epics,myths or access quests . I agree SOE has the best MMO out there and through the years they have made steps to improve the game. However I feel they have failed those true PvP'ers out there! I am so sick of hearing people on blue servers complain about the advantages they think those of us on PvP server have. This has caused SOE to make so many changes that PvP is now ruined and the only way we will get it back is by removing BG's from the PvP server. If the blue servers want PvP  then they can join the PvP server or BG. But give us PvP servers back our PvP, we DO NOT want the BG's. Because the way things have been done it has become the only option for PvP and that is a sad fact. As far as warfields go, I think they to would be more successful in generating PvP if there was a better reward system and we didn't have the BG's. Warfields bring about PvP, even during a time when PvP is dry and its a heck of a lot better than a BG. I would rather have the zerg fests of the KP days then BG's any day. I am not saying that is the  answer but the zerg fest's were hell of a lot more fun than a BG on its best day.There is so much that can be done with warfields and the reward system that that I believe would generate solid PvP population.  For example why not have a quest giver that gives you a daily quest for the PvP/ warfield hot zone and in order to be in the warfields for that day you must completed the quest. That will generate PvP within zones while questing as well as get people more involved in the content of the game..The reward could be a number of things related to PvP, tokens,gear,specail potions or abilities good just for PvP again the options are endless. All PvP'ers need to band together on this and try to get SOE's attention. Rather than bashing each others ideas and being rude. Lets try to find away to spin this around and save a game that is going to die if SOE doesn't wake up and see what is going on.I am not saying my idea is the absolute answer. There are endless ways to make this better. But the start  would be removing BG's from the PvP server. For those who whine about it, well they can transfer there toons to blue servers and BG until the cows come home. Just my opinion!</p></blockquote><p>They should make open world pvp rewarding. Trash BG's. Take the rewards you would normally get from said bg's and implement them to open world pvp/pvp quests. That would be amazing.</p>

[Orthureon]

<p>Pretty much since they introduced BG's PVP has completely died. I remember the good old days of Sinking Sands and just waiting around and attacking anyone and everyone who entered, And scouring the sands for people questing to fight.</p><p>The first two open world fights I had recently went like this:</p><p>Attack a brigand, I start beating him badly and he evacs without even trying.</p><p>Next fight, I attack a Paladin. He stops long enough to say in OOC " I am not in PVP spec or I would fight you.".</p><p>What the heck??? I mean people are so used to being safe until they are ready to fight or the odds are tipped heavily in their favor it is pathetic. I remember getting jumped by entire groups while I was questing, harvesting, or hunting for PVP. The whole spirit and thrill of PVP has vanished.</p><ul><li>Remove fast travel ( or limit it so many times per day)</li><li>Remove or limit BGs</li><li>Remove or limit WF's</li><li>Lower immunity times</li></ul>

[Kaldram]

<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pretty much since they introduced BG's PVP has completely died. I remember the good old days of Sinking Sands and just waiting around and attacking anyone and everyone who entered, And scouring the sands for people questing to fight.</p><p>The first two open world fights I had recently went like this:</p><p>Attack a brigand, I start beating him badly and he evacs without even trying.</p><p>Next fight, I attack a Paladin. He stops long enough to say in OOC " I am not in PVP spec or I would fight you.".</p><p>What the heck??? I mean people are so used to being safe until they are ready to fight or the odds are tipped heavily in their favor it is pathetic. I remember getting jumped by entire groups while I was questing, harvesting, or hunting for PVP. The whole spirit and thrill of PVP has vanished.</p><ul><li>Remove fast travel ( or limit it so many times per day)</li><li>Remove or limit BGs</li><li>Remove or limit WF's</li><li>Lower immunity times</li></ul></blockquote><p>I liked EQ1 where you'd clear the path to a valuable mob then get jumped by 40 people so they could kill it instead.</p><p>I miss pvp in general. All games have watered it down.. it makes me QQ</p>

[Twyxx]

<p>How was it before the update when bg's were dead?  Was open world action active?  Guessing not. </p><p>I think it's funny when people say bg's are killing questing.  How many people do you really think would be killing ten fairies in Withered Lands if they weren't in bg's?  They wouldn't be.  Just the same way people aren't questing on pve servers.  They'll sit around the guild hall waiting for raid or something interesting enough to warrant leaving the hall.</p><p>The problem is that there isn't much to do in the game right now that's actually entertaining.  The only action is in bgs or raids.  Nothing that drives people out into the open world.  If adventuring were exciting or rewarding enough people would be out doing it.</p><p>The game is just stale right now.  Hopefully the next expansion brings some fun.</p>

[Hennyo]

<p><cite>Twyxx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How was it before the update when bg's were dead?  Was open world action active?  Guessing not. </p><p>I think it's funny when people say bg's are killing questing.  How many people do you really think would be killing ten fairies in Withered Lands if they weren't in bg's?  They wouldn't be.  Just the same way people aren't questing on pve servers.  They'll sit around the guild hall waiting for raid or something interesting enough to warrant leaving the hall.</p><p>The problem is that there isn't much to do in the game right now that's actually entertaining.  The only action is in bgs or raids.  Nothing that drives people out into the open world.  If adventuring were exciting or rewarding enough people would be out doing it.</p><p>The game is just stale right now.  Hopefully the next expansion brings some fun.</p></blockquote><p>This right here hits the nail on the head as to why there is no open pvp anymore. As simple as it gets, there is no reason for players to actually go out into world to do stuff.</p><p>Following that line of reasoning, we can look at the past for things people would actually go out into the world for. Here are some examples, epic quest lines, traveling to instances, farming named that dropped gear people actually wanted for example class set pieces in EoF, leveling through quests in RoK, collecting rare shiny collections with rewards people wanted, and contested raid mobs that people cared about. I am sure I missed a ton of things, but these are all good examples of things this game doesn't have right now, and without putting incentives back into the game to go out into the world, no matter what else is fixed, open world pvp will feel dead and stale.</p><p>All this isn't to say there doesn't need to have some things majorly fixed with open world pvp. The merc issue is still huge, and could be fixed a few ways, including having your merc split your pvp rewards, including title as if he was another player. Without question things like flying mounts are still pose issues in open world pvp. The complete lack of any pvp rewards that you could only get from open world pvp, for example the ability to upgrade your pvp gear past the current top with only open world pvp. Another example would be token "discounts" to players with higher pvp titles. Also a fame system like the original one where it was easier to gain titles in a smaller group and easier to lose titles in a larger one, because raid pvp tends to just be a zerg, while group pvp tends to be much more skill based.</p><p>Last but not least, lets not forget that there are still ongoing class balance issues that will have to be addressed over time. Keeping pvp somewhat balanced and fun mechanic wise will be an ongoing project that if ignored will always die over time.</p>

[Hennyo]

One last major point that I almost never see brought up. For open world pvp to be successful, the physical layout is absolutely key. What I mean by this is that the world has to be large enough for players to feel like they could go out and do stuff in it without being noticed by other players. They also have to feel that there is enough ways in and out of an area that they won't feel trapped if they go somewhere. This is one of the main reasons flying mounts are so completely horrible for open world pvp, they make any zone much smaller than it would have been. Also currently the lack of zones, and the very linear design of large portions of them, they are also very bottle neck heavy in design making players that would want to do stuff feel trapped by the bottle necks. If you need a great example of what good pvp zone design looks like, look no further than the original KoS zones. These zones had multiple entrances and exits, the were very spread out with lots of ways to go from place to place, and there was tons of exploring to do in every zone. It should be noted that the cloud transport system that allowed you to jump off mid way also was very good for pvp. I could go on a lot further about this, but I just wanted to get people thinking about zone design, and why it is so fundamental to a solid pvp experience.

[princesskiwi]

<p>I'm trying to think of ways to improve open world pvp attendance without messing up any precious pve mechanics... I know we're dealing with a different beast than when pvp was new, but I remember when there was pvp at all tiers and everybody had a reason to be out doing things. One of the reasons for this (iirc) is that gear was more crafter-based and harvesting was more useful/profitable. I know it would be impossible to go back to that system, but maybe there could be a way of introducing crafted pvp gear at all tiers. It doesn't have to be (and should not be) on-par with gear purchased from tokens, but giving new players a sense of being able to compete and a reason to get out and look for mats could help boost numbers. /shrug</p><p>I will also say that I don't mind bg, I use them to practice pvp on classes I am less familiar with and I learn a lot from them. I would use bg even without token rewards for this reason. I am also not opposed to wf because occasionally there is some well-organized and exciting pvp, if you ignore the towers. I'm not sure how this kind of organization would happen without an "event" that guarantees a reward win or lose.</p><p>A final point I will make is that Nagafen can be a daunting server for new players, or those converting from a pve server. There are many individuals and guilds that will help new players, but there are also a lot of people I've seen that are completely intolerant to new players and often harass them or make fun of them if they dare ask a question. For a population that complains about a lack of players we don't exactly roll out the welcome mat. There's really nothing that can be done about this unless the server population decides as a whole to behave better... ha! I'm not suggesting handing out free tips that may have taken months or years to discover and hone, but maybe being civil is a good place to start?</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correcting the bg's ruined blah blah statement, WF started it all, the mindless pvping of massive amounts of players who got gear and could care less if they died over and over as long as they had tokens, once they got all they needed they got bored. The kp zerge murdered the fun of previous pvp. PvP servers died before Bg's even existed. I agree naggy could do without it, but players not are so used to the mindless playing that the idea of not having some easy route out of getting gear would more than likely kill the player base worse. People got to face most players can't pvp outside of WF's. They have tottaly forgot how to go someone by themselve's. They don't like to earn rewards the hard way, that's why half of naggy is in qeynos right now. The confidence level is horrible right now with players. You log on to a pvp server and see people who can't cure dots, they carry 0 pots, they don't even use totems. It all has become mindless to the point the players are screaming my way or I'll go to a blue server. </p><p>If they actually added some content to all zones that players wanted to get and kept it contested maybe you might get open world pvp. If people stopped getting rewards for out numbering people when they killed them you might find someone solo to fight running around. Don't allow Bg gear to work in pvp, and don't allow pvp gear to work in Bg's, because you know sony is not going to take them out.</p><p>It's not all soe, you got players all over the place when wf's come up, but its always one sided, and these same players don't even budge out the guild hall until Wf times, because they know if they don't have a group someone is going to kill them. Take the coward out the players, add reasons to actually be in open world, and give pvp writs 60 tokens per writ so maybe people will do that instead of bg's.</p></blockquote><p>TBH I agree the first major mistake SOE made was the introduction of warfields.....the second was the removal of open world writ givers....and yes many in the community regardless of intentional or not share a portion of the blame.  It was the community (even though it was a small vocal minority on the forums) that gave the push for gear seperation (mostly open world players who were and still are horrible at pvp)...it was the community (vocal minority on forums) that gave the devs cover to remove city pvp ruleset in qeynos instead of actually fixing freeport's ruleset when the revamp went live (tbh it was easier than fixing the poor coding they did since the dev team only had few days before the xmas break) cities are now ghost towns now and there is a new push to unlock guild halls for pvp (I warned the change to city ruleset would lead to the ghost towns and the push to unlock guild halls...imagine that I was right)...the community itself shares alot of the responsibility all around from pushing proc nerfs in pvp (procs werent the issue unmodified set bonuses and blue stats were..yet procs were the rally point).   People who could never play their classes in open world pvp effectively cried about issues with healers keeping their groups alive too well(omg imagine that healers actually doing what their classes are require to do) which brought about several nerfs to healers.</p>

[Darkor]

<p>With flying mounts in the game, PvP will NEVER EVER be the same.</p>

[Balrok]

<p><cite>Darkor@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>With <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">flying</span> jumpy mounts in the game, PvP will NEVER EVER be the same.</p></blockquote>

[Darkor]

<p>Jumping AND flying mounts ruin it completely.</p>

[Traxor]

<p>Also remove rangers from open world pvp.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>motherofmoon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remove BG from Nagafen server.</p><p>Create random Quest givers in open world hot zones that give writs to kill mobs and or players or both, or have random mob kills give the quest/writ have the rewards be tokens.Once the quest is accepted you are unable to fly.Reduce immunity and recent timers once quest is accepted.</p><p>Warfield is fine the way it is every other hour.</p><p>Create best of best competition like eq1. rewards will be a title</p><p>No rewards for raid pvp.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">No rewards for exile faction</span>.</p><p>If you have any ideas or comments about how to improve open world pvp please share your thoughts. I think sony has given a honest effort to try to improve on pvp and will continue to do so if given the proper feedback needed to do so.</p><p>Please keep on topic. this is not a debate about what class is op at the moment only on how to create more open world pvp.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>This seems extremely haterish. Like u dont want anyone in exile. This is a pvp server everyone should pvp. Sounds like you been steamrolled a bit by Displaced, why trip I think we all have at some point.</p>

[motherofmoon]

<p><cite>Twyxx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How was it before the update when bg's were dead?  Was open world action active?  Guessing not. </p><p>I think it's funny when people say bg's are killing questing.  How many people do you really think would be killing ten fairies in Withered Lands if they weren't in bg's?  They wouldn't be.  Just the same way people aren't questing on pve servers.  They'll sit around the guild hall waiting for raid or something interesting enough to warrant leaving the hall.</p><p>The problem is that there isn't much to do in the game right now that's actually entertaining.  The only action is in bgs or raids.  Nothing that drives people out into the open world.  If adventuring were exciting or rewarding enough people would be out doing it.</p><p>The game is just stale right now.  Hopefully the next expansion brings some fun.</p></blockquote><p>Are you from unrest the pve server? this is how to encorage open world pvp on naggy and the quest idea is not that people want to kill 10 fairies, but quests that give rewards for pvp! and yes if bg was removed from naggy then more people would be in open world looking for pvp!</p>

[motherofmoon]

<p><cite>Traxor@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also remove rangers from open world pvp.</p></blockquote><p>I dont think you ever complained when they couldnt kill you for the past year because your class was so op against melee classes!</p>

[motherofmoon]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>motherofmoon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remove BG from Nagafen server.</p><p>Create random Quest givers in open world hot zones that give writs to kill mobs and or players or both, or have random mob kills give the quest/writ have the rewards be tokens.Once the quest is accepted you are unable to fly.Reduce immunity and recent timers once quest is accepted.</p><p>Warfield is fine the way it is every other hour.</p><p>Create best of best competition like eq1. rewards will be a title</p><p>No rewards for raid pvp.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">No rewards for exile faction</span>.</p><p>If you have any ideas or comments about how to improve open world pvp please share your thoughts. I think sony has given a honest effort to try to improve on pvp and will continue to do so if given the proper feedback needed to do so.</p><p>Please keep on topic. this is not a debate about what class is op at the moment only on how to create more open world pvp.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>This seems extremely haterish. Like u dont want anyone in exile. This is a pvp server everyone should pvp. Sounds like you been steamrolled a bit by Displaced, why trip I think we all have at some point.</p></blockquote><p>Was just a idea tbh,  i have given it some thought and dont think they should be unrewarded but given full faction so they dont have to raid up to pvp in wf to prevent killing each other, 3 factions might be good out there tbh it might even up all sides! steamrolled by Displaced was not the reason dont over rate them last 6v6 Displaced VS Purity that i saw in bucherblock Purity won!</p>

[alabama]

<p><cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>One last major point that I almost never see brought up. For open world pvp to be successful, <strong><em>the physical layout is absolutely key</em></strong>. What I mean by this is that the world has to be large enough for players to feel like they could go out and do stuff in it without being noticed by other players. They also have to feel that there is enough ways in and out of an area that they won't feel trapped if they go somewhere. <strong><em>This is one of the main reasons flying mounts are so completely horrible for open world pvp, they make any zone much smaller than it would have been. </em></strong>Also currently the lack of zones, and the very linear design of large portions of them, they are also very bottle neck heavy in design making players that would want to do stuff feel trapped by the bottle necks. If you need a great example of what good pvp zone design looks like, look no further than the original KoS zones. These zones had multiple entrances and exits, the were very spread out with lots of ways to go from place to place, and there was tons of exploring to do in every zone. It should be noted that the cloud transport system that allowed you to jump off mid way also was very good for pvp. I could go on a lot further about this, but I just wanted to get people thinking about zone design, and why it is so fundamental to a solid pvp experience.</blockquote><p>this is one of the best posts ive read. agree 100%. flying mounts destroy the danger of the zones. remove then and mercs in pvp.</p><p>taking bg's off nag will do squat for open world. people making this argument are either new or retar-ded, simple as that. the majority of people who bg and do not open world fight on nag do so for gear, if you remove the bg's they will not move to open world pvp they will just no longer bg. hence removing yet another option of play it your own way for the people who do want to fight some sort of fight <em>resembling</em> pvp and not the garbage wf zergs.</p>

[alabama]

<p><cite>motherofmoon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p><p>Are you from unrest the pve server? this is how to encorage open world pvp on naggy and the quest idea is not that people want to kill 10 fairies, but quests that give rewards for pvp! and yes if bg was removed from naggy then more people would be in open world looking for pvp!</p></blockquote><p>you have no idea what you are talking about. please leave.</p>

[princesskiwi]

<p>Since it would be impossible to remove leaping/flying mounts from the game (from some angles) why not put limits on them? Limit leaping and flying to be within range from the ground so people stand a chance of getting hit. Why not enable some kind of in-air pvp where you are always within ground range and have your flying speed disabled until combat is broken, and have a greater chance of being knocked from your mount and damaged by the fall, or have both opponents airborne with the same risk of falling? The mechanics can't be that different from fighting in water, can they?</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Geena@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since it would be impossible to remove leaping/flying mounts from the game (from some angles) why not put limits on them? Limit leaping and flying to be within range from the ground so people stand a chance of getting hit. Why not enable some kind of in-air pvp where you are always within ground range and have your flying speed disabled until combat is broken, and have a greater chance of being knocked from your mount and damaged by the fall, or have both opponents airborne with the same risk of falling? The mechanics can't be that different from fighting in water, can they?</p></blockquote><p>Removing those mounts from nagafen would be a much, much simpler 'fix'.  The code needed to do what you suggest is extensive.</p><p>If these mounts 'break pvp' then their just shouldn't be leapers or flyers on naggy, end of story.</p><p>It seems to me there are many, many reasons why open world pvp isn't common anymore, and its just due to the general evolution of the game to mechanics that minimize open world player to player contact.</p><p>I personally don't see a long, vibrant life left in open world pvp.  There aren't resources to deliver radically different mechanics to a forked codebase anymore.</p>

[Freejazzlive]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Geena@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since it would be impossible to remove leaping/flying mounts from the game (from some angles) why not put limits on them? Limit leaping and flying to be within range from the ground so people stand a chance of getting hit. Why not enable some kind of in-air pvp where you are always within ground range and have your flying speed disabled until combat is broken, and have a greater chance of being knocked from your mount and damaged by the fall, or have both opponents airborne with the same risk of falling? The mechanics can't be that different from fighting in water, can they?</p></blockquote><p>Removing those mounts from nagafen would be a much, much simpler 'fix'.  The code needed to do what you suggest is extensive.</p><p>If these mounts 'break pvp' then their just shouldn't be leapers or flyers on naggy, end of story.</p><p>It seems to me there are many, many reasons why open world pvp isn't common anymore, and its just due to the general evolution of the game to mechanics that minimize open world player to player contact.</p><p>I personally don't see a long, vibrant life left in open world pvp.  There aren't resources to deliver radically different mechanics to a forked codebase anymore.</p></blockquote><p>Removing flyers & leapers would render at least 2-3 quest lines irrelevant: feel free to do the quest line, but <strong>SURPRISE</strong>, no reward, or at least not a reward you can use. Might as well take out those quest lines as well. But taking out flyers renders other quest lines difficult/impossible to do as well, so that option I think is simply not tenable.I suspect you're right about "open world" PvP, though, & it shouldn't surprise anyone at all: in my experience, <strong>in every single game I've ever played</strong>, instanced PvP largely destroyed open world PvP. The only minor exception to this was Warhammer Online, where lowbies from 4th-11th level duked it out repeatedly in the lowbie "PvP lake," largely because that was the only enjoyable content the game had.This thread should be re-titled, "Stick A Fork In It."</p>

[princesskiwi]

<p>I think it's reasonable to assume that taking anything out of naggy that's already been there (bg or leapers/flyers) isn't going to happen. Really the chances are small that any of these suggestions will be implemented. How can players care about an open world pvp server when it's clear that the devs do not?</p><p>The allure of the battlegrounds is that the pvp isn't "real" in that it doesn't affect pvp standings in the real world, you have the built-in excuse of a "bad team" if you do poorly, the fights are a sure thing, and you can stack your odds by locking at a specific level and maxing out your gear instead of having to purchase new gear at every tier. You can save face and look l33t to your friends without really risking anything (fame, plat, embarrassment...) and reaping all of the rewards of pvp (experience, tokens, etc.). Then, all geared out and with a good rotation down for pvp you can strike out into the world and gank the new and the undergeared simply to prove your awesomeness. What's not to like about that?</p>

[Snached]

<p>First off I would like to say thanks to SOE for trying to improve PVP.</p><p>Trying to get balanced and keep people interested in pvp is a never ending battle; people always want to compare it to how it was in the past or how a new game has done it. Here is A couple of things to think about: New games: everyone is leveling characters in the open world, the hard core player get to cap and end game gear fast and hunts and pick off each other and the newer players leveling and questing this creates a pvp atmosphere.</p><p>Now in EQ2 everyone has 2 or 3 92’s or a lot more, people log in to farm, raid or grind an alt. every time something new is implemented it creates a bottle neck. (And a lot of fun hopefully) Currently PVP/BG are the bottle neck. Personally im enjoying the new PVP. I log in do the WF then do the BG writs. If I have more time to play I continue to do the BG’s because I want the new gear. And there are very few spots to open world PVP other than WF’s.</p><p>Im of the opinion it will be very hard to recreate PVP like it was back in the day.</p><p>If they added new quest lines with rewards that were far superior to the gear we have now, that would induce hunting questers again.</p><p>Things like taking away exiles removing WF’s, taking away raid PVP will not bring it back to what you are referring to as real pvp. Real pvp always make me laugh let’s say you did all of those things. Then you would have less people during the WF’s and or 2 or three groups of each faction doing the same zerg that you are saying you want to avoid. Some of the best times I have had pvping was the rok tso days after the raid going out pvping with what was left of the raid against other raid guilds.</p><p>Removing the BG’s will not make people start hopping from zone to zone running around looking for someone to fight.</p><p> Making travel more difficult again will not create this “real PVP” you speak of. It may add a few more kills if you camp popular zones and wait for groups or raids to zone in. but wait you don’t want raid pvp?</p><p>The population does not support old school PVP, where you can track and sneak up on someone and get the jump on them kill them rinse and repeat.</p><p>Things I like with the new update:</p><p>The removal in PVP/PVE gear separation. Two thumbs up!</p><p>Flying and jumping mounts being disabled once you are flagged. Personally I think they should stop once the WF starts. People still use them till the last 10 minutes.</p><p>The cost of the new PVP gear is high enough to keep people pvping for a long time. Hopefully once everyone attains t3 they are ready to add more to keep people pvping.</p><p>Mercs are pretty much useless during PVP now. personally I think they should cower or disappear once engaged in PVP combat.</p><p>The fame system is better, but personally they should go back to TSO fame or remove it all together.</p><p>Bringing back Exiles.</p><p>More tweeks they could do to improve PVP:</p><p> Targeting is still messed up.</p><p>Make it so you don’t get full tokens unless you participate in the WF.</p><p>I agree we do need something to make people go out to contested zones other than Warfield’s. but don’t have a good suggestion as to how.</p><p>Make mercs disappear once engaged in PVP combat removing all buffs.</p><p>During the time of the WF disable flying/jumping mounts not just once you get flagged.</p><p>For the lower levels if you take a level 46 to ant you should not get tokens for the kill dirring the WF even though they are within the level limit.</p><p>Just my thoughts again im very happy with the recent attention to PVP.</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>I have a couple of suggestions.</p><p>To deal with mount issues, implement some kind of proximity based restriction on mounts.  If you get within so many meters of a player within your level range your mount bonuses are removed.</p><p>Then, obviously there needs to be more reason to go into the Open World in the first place, and this requires events of some kind to pop up throughout the world.  This could be anything from mob spawns to mini games or something in between.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p><cite>Twyxx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">How was it before the update when bg's were dead?  Was open world action active?  <strong>Guessing not</strong></span><strong>.</strong> </p><p>I think it's funny when people say bg's are killing questing.  How many people do you really think would be killing ten fairies in Withered Lands if they weren't in bg's?  They wouldn't be.  Just the same way people aren't questing on pve servers.  They'll sit around the guild hall waiting for raid or something interesting enough to warrant leaving the hall.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The problem is that there isn't much to do in the game right now that's actually entertaining.</span>  The only action is in bgs or raids.  Nothing that drives people out into the open world.  If adventuring were exciting or rewarding enough people would be out doing it.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The game is just stale right now.  Hopefully the next expansion brings some fun.</span></p></blockquote><p>These observations are pretty spot on.  The dev team has addressed the pvp gear issue.  IF (and this is the BIG IF) they move forward supporting the current mechanic of matching quest/open SS and by proxxy SS instance gear/entry EM raid gear with the t1, t2,t3 pvp/bg gear of the corresponding x-pac the there WILL be a resurgence of open world pvp with the next x-pac. </p><p>Quest gear and open world gear are easier/faster to accumulate than the corresponding t1/t2 gear but those seeking to mainly pvp or bg will have open world targets and thus their will be people hunting questers and there will be people hunting those people hunting the questers once again in the open world.</p><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Removing those mounts from nagafen would be a much, much simpler 'fix'. The code needed to do what you suggest is extensive.</p><p>If these mounts 'break pvp' then their just shouldn't be leapers or flyers on naggy, end of story.</p><p>It seems to me there are many, many reasons why open world pvp isn't common anymore, and its just due to the general evolution of the game to mechanics that minimize open world player to player contact.</p><p>I personally don't see a long, vibrant life left in open world pvp. There aren't resources to deliver radically different mechanics to a forked codebase anymore.</p></blockquote><p>No real large expenditure of resources needs to be allocated IF they follow the current plan:  The open world will once again have a purpose if the open world is designed properly - using current gear reward mechanics very little actually needs to be added in addition.  No new mechanics etc need be done. Everything will be in place it just needs to be aligned properly at level/content introduction not 6 mos to 1.9 years after the fact as happened these last few times. </p><p>Not following through will once again hurt open world pvp.  Should new quests/content/everything be put in at the same time many Nagafanites will choose open world questing/killing over BGs as those rewards will be usefull once again on our server and while we are out attempting to get them we will see pvp - at least thats the hope.  As I am not really playing anymore that much I hope when I log into the new x-pac thats what I see.</p>

[Arckon]

<p> When it comes to Naggy there is no longer anyway to save open world pvp. There are too many zones compared to the old days so even if open world where to pick back up the over all population between zones would be too low. The real way to fix open world pvp would be to open a new pvp server locked to the last day of the KOS/EOF expansion. This will never happen due to the fact that SOE is working on EQ next and they do not want to make something that would take away from there new game. So unless they do something like this sometime soon I see naggy being merged with a pve server soon enough. There reason would be something like this " Due to falling server population we are merging the Nagafen server with the Freeport server. Players can still keep there pvp excitement alive in battlegrounds"</p>

[7foggynites]

<p><cite>Brucethegreat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with these suggestions. BGs have ruined open world PVP to point that there are few if any pvp fights anymore. For those who hunt fot it, it doesn't exist. People don't quest. harvest, or adventure anymore. They spend almost all there time in BGs. A PVP server should not need big gimmics like BGs to get gear and fight opponents, it should be natural like it was before BGs were introduced. I chose a PVP server to get that thrill of combat as I jouney thru the zones not from some special place that does the same thing over and over again. Give our server a chance to stand out separate from PVE servers please. At least consider the first item if we get more things later that would only make it better.</p></blockquote><p>They've tried open-world PvP with EQ1 and EQ2 for many, many years. They have experience in other games with PvP as well. History has proven that open-world PvP doesn't work and everytime you try to make it work it blows up in your face and wastes precious time.</p><p>BG's are a success. So it makes sense to use them on PvP servers.</p><p>You may wistfully recall past days when there were good moments in open-world PvP, like when two adventurers dueled one another on fair terms,  but for the most part, open-world PvP is filled with griefing and zerging and drives away new players from the server.</p><p>Like it or not, but this is the future of PvP, especially in PvE-centered MMORPGs.</p>

[purple8]

<p>Havoc Marks have been heirloom for just over a week. Now that you don't need to play a toon to gear it, the spike in low tier open world pvp activity that followed GU64 has all but vanished. /cry</p><p>Please consider walking the cat backwards on the heirloom decision to promote open world pvp. </p>

[Katanza]

<p>I would like to take a moment to share my PVP experience with you.  This is not a QQ.  This is just the facts.  I began playing this game a few years ago.  (Yes, I think this might be my only post on forums)  I first started a character on Nagafen.  I found the game interesting and fun.  My character made Level 10 that first afternoon.  Then right after I made Level 10, I had a duo kill me.  And camp me.  And kill me.  And camp me.  My memory is foggy about what that period of time is called when you are actually safe from being killed.  Or maybe it was that I kept leaving a "safe cirlce" or something.  It was a few years ago.  Anyway, I was camped and killed over and over again.  I tried to find ways to ditch the duo, but nothing worked.  And no other players in the area would help.  Sadly, I admit, I just gave up and went to a PVE server.</p><p>That is my only PVP experience in this game.  The game has been out for many years, so by the time I started playing, there would have been no even ground for me.  My point is that it seems very difficult for someone brand new to the game to actually play the PVP server. </p><p>Again, not QQ'ing.  I actually laugh and joke about the experience with others I know that have played this game in the past.  It was kind of funny in a pathetic way.  Me and my little pick up armor, etc.  dying over and over and over again. </p><p>At least I am still playing the game, if not off and on.</p>

[Seliri]

<p><cite>purple8 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Havoc Marks have been heirloom for just over a week. Now that you don't need to play a toon to gear it, the spike in low tier open world pvp activity that followed GU64 has all but vanished. /cry</p><p>Please consider walking the cat backwards on the heirloom decision to promote open world pvp. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Lol @ lack of quality oversight @ SOE regarding content longevity & exploitability...hrmph...</span></p><p><cite>Katanza wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would like to take a moment to share my PVP experience with you.  This is not a QQ.  This is just the facts.  I began playing this game a few years ago.  (Yes, I think this might be my only post on forums)  I first started a character on Nagafen.  I found the game interesting and fun.  My character made Level 10 that first afternoon.  Then right after I made Level 10, I had a duo kill me.  And camp me.  And kill me.  And camp me.  My memory is foggy about what that period of time is called when you are actually safe from being killed.  Or maybe it was that I kept leaving a "safe cirlce" or something.  It was a few years ago.  Anyway, I was camped and killed over and over again.  I tried to find ways to ditch the duo, but nothing worked.  And no other players in the area would help.  Sadly, I admit, I just gave up and went to a PVE server.</p><p>That is my only PVP experience in this game.  The game has been out for many years, so by the time I started playing, there would have been no even ground for me.  My point is that it seems very difficult for someone brand new to the game to actually play the PVP server. </p><p>Again, not QQ'ing.  I actually laugh and joke about the experience with others I know that have played this game in the past.  It was kind of funny in a pathetic way.  Me and my little pick up armor, etc.  dying over and over and over again. </p><p>At least I am still playing the game, if not off and on.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Pretty sure SOE could benefit from a simple tool-tip like, hey bro, call home if you keep dying to PvP (activated at a low level, player could opt to disable this tooltip).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Also, expanding respawn locations can't be too difficult, either (as well as a tooltip noting options with the above qualifiers of repeated dying from PvP at a low LVL).</span></p>

[raydenwins]

<p>Something has to be done. Based on the last month or so, our consistent group of 92s have done the KP warfields and have witnessed the same story over and over. 10 to 20 Freeports in zone against 50-60 Qs. The sad part is the 50-60 Qs only hit the towers, while the Freeps are trying to engage the Qs. Within seconds after the Qs win the WF, they camp , evac or call with no intention of actually fighting. It is so depressing to think they are either so scared to pvp or they are that desperate to get free tokens from another tier WF. What's puzzing me the most, is what is the purpose of participating in a wf like a scheduled robot if you never actually gear up and pvp? We have seen Qs mentored at 92, 80s on top of the towers, under the towers. Seems like Qs trying everything to not have pvp, but are salivating over pvp tokens lol. It's a total joke.</p><p>A side note, our couple small Freep groups end up getting many kills anyway, but we end up losing everytime. There doesn't appear to be one additional Freep group to ever participate to help. As the WF message broadcasts, I consistently read " SS group lfm". Really? Nagafen is a pvp server, how is it not fun to kill the other faction? As all 50 Qs camp in sync, we remain in a group of ten looking to spar some more, with not one Q in sight.</p><p>My only suggestions, increase the tokens per pvp kill and increase the amount of tokens for a WF loss, so hitting the towers serves no purpose. And add some control to only award tokens if actually participating rather then sitting in a cave dead or in the ocean. Perhaps re-implement the pvp writs that give Havoc tokens.</p><p>Nagafen = PVP</p>