dungeonmaker....stick a fork in it cause its done

[IvyBlackrose]

<p>well soe I didnt think you could do it but you finally did it....you killed any desire anyone is gonna have to do dungeonmakers you know? ive seen a lot of really silly stuff done to a project that could have been great, but this limiting aoes to 5 mobs? thats the final straw.....</p><p>so whats next?? are you going to limit players aoe's to 5 mobs only out in the regular game? you should I mean if you screw over the dungeon maker people you should really balance it in the regular game as well.....when i log in on my fury id like to see that my ring of fire only hits 5 mobs. or my warlocks aoes only hit 5 mobs or my conjurors earthquake only hits 5 mobs or a brawlers aoe only hits 5 mobs....gotta make it fair soe.....</p><p>P'S the way the dungeon maker was before wasnt hurting anyone....so what if someone could level from 1 - 90 in about 5 hours? that was no different than getting a powerlevel session</p>

[Koleg]

<p>Yup, Yup ... It's done, again.  Don't think there is any chance of a Rez this time either.</p><p>DM release where only Avatars can be used and nobody uses it, they sponsor bonus token events and nobody uses it.  Then they work out so you can use your own in-game character and everyone uses it.  Then they nerf AE and nobody will use it.</p><p>I especially like the fact that these notes were seemingly added last minute, hitting the test and live patch notes on the same time, when it took 3 monhts of playing your own in-game characters on test before it went live.</p>

[Juravael]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yup, Yup ... It's done, again.  Don't think there is any chance of a Rez this time either.</p><p>DM release where only Avatars can be used and nobody uses it, they sponsor bonus token events and nobody uses it.  Then they work out so you can use your own in-game character and everyone uses it.  Then they nerf <span style="color: #ff0000;">tokens, rewards you can buy, XP</span> and now AE and nobody will use it.</p><p>I especially like the fact that these notes were seemingly added last minute, hitting the test and live patch notes on the same time, when it took 3 monhts of playing your own in-game characters on test before it went live.</p></blockquote><p>Fixed.</p>

[ReddyKY]

<p>Well thankfully I didn't waste too much money on the DM. Bet some people are gonna be peed off though.</p>

[Grumble69]

<p>RIP DM, you got wtfpwnd by the nerf hammer.</p><p>----------------------------------------</p><p>I'm not sure which dev is in charge.  But they really need to look at this from a different perspective.  Right now they are so intent on keeping DM from being exploitable that they've completely squished all the fun out of it.  If DM were a bicycle, it would currently have training wheels, bumper sides, enclosed in a big ball, and throttled to go no faster than 5 mph.  Sure it's safe, but who wants to ride it?</p>

[Opeij]

<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>RIP DM, you got wtfpwnd by the nerf hammer.</p><p>----------------------------------------</p><p>I'm not sure which dev is in charge.  But they really need to look at this from a different perspective.  Right now they are so intent on keeping DM from being exploitable that they've completely squished all the fun out of it.  If DM were a bicycle, it would currently have training wheels, bumper sides, enclosed in a big ball, and throttled to go no faster than 5 mph.  Sure it's safe, but who wants to ride it?</p></blockquote><p>It would also be bolted to the ground, with no pedals.</p><p>Really, they should just put everything back to how it was and have the max targets you can AE be 5-8. The exploit was from putting 50 mobs in a cluster and just blowing them up with a targeted AE. Make it so you limit that, and hell, make it so its a PBAE. Then you actually have to tank mobs for at least 4 seconds. As is, mobs hit too hard, have too much hp, and too large of an agro range.</p>

[AppyH]

<p>Well, that's it for dungeon maker. Going through boring, repetive dungeons, without AE just wont be worth it, with the limited rewards available. FIVE targets? I mean..come ON, I can somehow see that killing 50-100 mobs in one pull feels wrong, but FIVE? Make it 10 or 20 or something reasonable.</p>

[ShadowMunkie]

<p>You all act as if this is something that killed Dungeon Maker, its not. All they did was make it so people have to use creative ways to produce the same out come, trust me a skilled powerleveler can still use Dungeon Maker to obtain faster levels and aa's than someone doing it the normal traditional powerleveling way.</p><p>Try to find some of the tricks that are out there, no I won't be posting them because well they are creative and honestly I don't want Sony 'fixing whats not broken.' I will give a hint, its a combination of a lot of things, Tanks and Healers are the best for it and lastly it doesn't cost a lot of plat to produce the same outcome.</p><p>Good luck on your hunts.</p>

[Koleg]

<p>Why not just force everyone into Singular Focus and make it so you cannot place DM mobs more than 20m (aggro range) apart.  By limiting the AE hits all they are doing is allowing Makers to build death traps that will instantly P.O. people that will never return.  Slowing down the dungeon runs is not equivalent to having fun, nor does it make anything more enjoyable or rewarding.</p>

[Tatoma]

<p><cite>Senkai@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You all act as if this is something that killed Dungeon Maker, its not. All they did was make it so people have to use creative ways to produce the same out come, trust me a skilled powerleveler can still use Dungeon Maker to obtain faster levels and aa's than someone doing it the normal traditional powerleveling way.</p><p>Try to find some of the tricks that are out there, no I won't be posting them because well they are creative and honestly I don't want Sony 'fixing whats not broken.' I will give a hint, its a combination of a lot of things, Tanks and Healers are the best for it and lastly it doesn't cost a lot of plat to produce the same outcome.</p><p>Good luck on your hunts.</p></blockquote><p>The aoe isn't what's killing dungeon maker.  It's the constantly changing it to make it less rewarding, less enjoyable, and less worthwhile to use that is killing it. The first stab at it was changing the reward costs upwards by between 5 and 10 times the original mark costs.  The next one was charging the creators an extra cost to enable them to do anything to make the dungeons more than token grind instances.  The third stab was to allow player characters into the dungeons and then wrecking the scaling for lower level players so that the characters who actually had a reason to use the dungeons no longer could survive in the dungeons. </p><p>Right now, I can still easily do a dungeon with my 92 characters and my 30 characters still die constantly because of poorly implemented changes to the character scaling in them.</p><p>I suppose I could go back to using the 4 ability avatars again, but honestly, who ever enjoyed those?  Click 1 to attack, click 2 to attack harder, click 3 to increase block, etc.   Simplicity like that has a place over there in console game world, but we choose mmo's for the increased amount of options available to us.  If I want a 4 button game mode, I'll bust out the old NES system.</p>

[Regolas]

I just started trying DM zones, first on my 92 ranger in Skyshrine faction gear. It sucked, i could limp through but it was tough. I just went in the same dungeons with my 85 zerker (with mythical buff) and he owns those zones. He seems to not be restricted to 5 mobs on his autoattack, so I can plow through the zones. I'm 2 boxing a warden also but I don't really need him, just getting the tokens for the 92 charms.

[Ferunnia]

<p>You do realize that AoE autoattack only hits 1 mob + 4 additional right? Has been that way since its inception.</p>

[Regolas]

I wasn't actually, thanks for the info. I'm pretty new to constant AE auto. I've never concentrated on it on my ranger and only got my zerker mythical last week. I guess either the additional 4 targets are random and different each time or something similar, as the DM mobs were only lasting 2 hits and most died around the same time on my zerk whether I pulled a group of 5 or 4 groups of 5 (ie 20).

[Wizardlord]

<p><cite>IvyBlackrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well soe I didnt think you could do it but you finally did it....you killed any desire anyone is gonna have to do dungeonmakers you know? ive seen a lot of really silly stuff done to a project that could have been great,<span style="color: #ff0000;"> but this limiting aoes to 5 mobs?</span> thats the final straw.....</p><p>P'S the way the dungeon maker was before wasnt hurting anyone....<span style="color: #0000ff;">so what if someone could level from 1 - 90 in about 5 hours?</span> that was no different than getting a powerlevel session</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">acctualy i didnt find the limted AoE's to be much hastle, i just had to change</span> <span style="color: #ff0000;">my dungeon around abit and swap plvling toons from monk to zerker, been doing the DM's at the same rate even with the limit, FYI most classes still have aoe's/abilities that can do way more than 5 in DM, just got to find them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">abit off topic but quickest ive seen so far is 2 hours 28minutes 1-92 320aa, personaly ive only done 3 hours 50mins though.</span></p>

[TheSpin]

<p>I hate aoe grind fests.</p><p>I would much rather prefer the ability to add powerful single mobs into the dungeon maker.  Not only is that more fun for my playstyle (I'm sure many others as well), but I also think you can tell a better 'story' if you can add some real challenging npcs into the mix.</p>

[Regolas]

What dungeons do you use Ponzo? I'm running a few at the moment for marks on my L85 zerker and warden. Mainly for the charms when I get them to 92 but if I can get better xp than sebelis then that's a bonus!

[Wizardlord]

<p><cite>Regolas wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>What dungeons do you use Ponzo? I'm running a few at the moment for marks on my L85 zerker and warden. Mainly for the charms when I get them to 92 but if I can get better xp than sebelis then that's a bonus!</blockquote><p>on Splitpaw i use the "400 mark (hard)" or the "100 token (1 room, quick)" dungeons, but i also have 2 of my own i use which are set up for my style of pulling, i would say if you want to get better xp from the dungeons, its better to set one up yourself then you can make the difficulty/pulls/effects, ussualy i use 1 or two rooms with a ton of mobs and use nearly all the effect objects to gain the most challenge reward from them, also have like about 10 names all with increase tier/level on them.</p>

[The_Cheeseman]

<p><cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate aoe grind fests.</p><p>I would much rather prefer the ability to add powerful single mobs into the dungeon maker.  Not only is that more fun for my playstyle (I'm sure many others as well), but I also think you can tell a better 'story' if you can add some real challenging npcs into the mix.</p></blockquote><p>AoE grinding will always be more efficient unless the devs make boss MOBs disproportionately more rewarding. When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, exp grinding is about how much total damage you output over time (damage = exp), and AoE attacks hitting the maximum number of allowed targets is almost always the most DPS you can achieve. From my own experience over 11 years of MMO gaming, it's almost always more efficient to kill massive numbers of easy MOBs than to face actual challenges, so that means that a dungeon with densely-packed groups of easy MOBs is pretty much the perfect situation.</p><p>No it isn't fun. But then, that isn't really the point of exp grinding. I have explained in several past threads my views on player-made content, so I won't repeat them here except to say that endless grind maps is the inevitable result in basically every example.</p>

[Regolas]

I'm on splitpaw so was wondering if you had a good dungeon I could play. I've done the 400 hard and 100 quick ones but variety is nice. I really can't be bothered making my own if someone has made a perfectly good PL one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mysstie]

What annoys me more than any of this is that the Flavor text stuff you can add to the mobs is so inconsistent as to when it works, it makes it not worth the effort to mess with my own dungeon anymore. I just leave my silly little 5 token dungeon as is now. I go through it just to get 5 tokens to buy a mystery crate.

[Pixiewrath]

<p><cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate aoe grind fests.</p><p>I would much rather prefer the ability to add powerful single mobs into the dungeon maker.  Not only is that more fun for my playstyle (I'm sure many others as well), but I also think you can tell a better 'story' if you can add some real challenging npcs into the mix.</p></blockquote><p>You can put up some pretty decent mobs as it is, without scripting. The problem is that you are so limited to the effect objects. You can only use 4 or 5 of each, instead of having them limitless. I'd rather edit each mob manually than have the crate system.</p>

[Afista]

<p><cite>Pixiewrath@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> I'd rather edit each mob manually than have the crate system.</blockquote><p>Me too... although I'd think any change to that system now would effect how every pre-existing dungeon is set up.</p>

[bks6721]

<p>DM never was fun to me.  When I found one that I could clear in 30 minutes that rewarded 1500 marks I ran it unitl I had the charms on all of my 92's.  Glad I got that done before the aoe nerf.  I wouldn't run that zone without the aoe.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p><cite>Afista wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pixiewrath@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> I'd rather edit each mob manually than have the crate system.</blockquote><p>Me too... although I'd think any change to that system now would effect how every pre-existing dungeon is set up.</p></blockquote><p>True, but if people really care about their dungeons, rebuffing the mobs in them to give a better experience is for the best in the end. I'd have 5 dungeons or 6 to re-buff then but if it makes them funnier to play, then I'd be prepared to do it.</p>