Plate Tanks surpass brawlers in Avoidance

[Novusod]

<p>Brawlers have long had a maximum 24% base avoidance with AA + epic buff. This is the base avoidance that get modified by block chance. In essence this is the brawlers shield and it is roughly equal to 2200 protection.</p><p>When they changed the Mythical shield protection value to 2230 it is now possible for plate tanks to get greater base avoidance than brawlers. Plate tanks with Mythical shield equiped would have 24.24% base avoid. There is no combination of gear a brawler can get to increase their base avoidance and because of this plate tanks real avoidance will be higher as well.</p><p>This is exactly what I said would happen after the great brawler Nerf in GU64. With the removal of the class defining strikethrough immunity we will see the return of the plate tank monopoly because brawlers will no longer have an avoidance advantage. The situation exists were where right now the plate tanks are gaining higher avoidance than brawlers. It is funny how the so called avoidance tank is no longer the king of avoidance. When brawlers started to catch up to plate tanks in terms of mitigation the brawlers were quickly nerfed but when the plate tanks not only catch up but surpase the brawlers in terms of avoidance nothing happens. Class ballance is so out of wack right now I don't even know were to begin.</p><p>Guilds that are using brawlers at this point are only putting themselves at disadvantage. It is only a matter of time before the brawler tanks are retired or reroll as plate tanks.</p>

[Lamatu]

<p>Your class is Up then Down again. Its the Circle of EQ2.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.</p><p>-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.</p><p>You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.</p><p>We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.</p><p>-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.</p><p>You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.</p><p>We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.</p></blockquote><p>At the moment it isn't a big deal, .24 extra isn't a huge issue but with 100% block % it does make a 2.4% difference, the problem is further down the road as your shields continue to upgrade while brawlers have no way to upgrade their base block %.  It will lead to plates not needing as much block % freeing up their choices for gear and reforges giving them more options while brawlers will be out of luck.</p><p>If your brawler has more actual avoidance than you right now then you are not a good tank.  The only advantage is that your brawler has a longer duration on their avoidance temps which can artificially inflate a ACT avoidance parse.  Bruener is right though you can't just look at one thing you need to look at the whole picture and brawlers are still effective tanks unlike what Obano would like people to think.</p>

[Tekadeo]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> brawlers are still <span style="color: #cc99ff;">amazing </span>tanks unlike what Obano would like people to think.</p></blockquote><p>/Fixed</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> brawlers are still <span style="color: #cc99ff;">amazing </span>tanks unlike what Obano would like people to think.</p></blockquote><p>/Fixed</p></blockquote><p>That is being silly.</p>

[Silzin]

the problem as I see it that is being addressed here is that Plate tanks on average have 1-2k more Mitigation then Brawlers given the same adorns/Gear/Buffs and are all Specced for Mit. If at the same time Plate tanks can get higher Avoidance through then Brawlers then there is something very wrong with this situation. The reason for Brawlers losing ST Immunity was that we had equal Mit know and don’t need it. If the my observations are right with the difference in Mit and also Plate tanks getting more Avoidance on top of that then Brawlers then the days of Brawlers being even a good option agenized Plate tanks is going away.

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.</p><p>-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.</p><p>You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.</p><p>We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.</p></blockquote><p>Even looking at all the variables the SK is superior in every way to a Bruiser and the Guard is just straight up superior to a Monk.</p><p>1) It is impossible for brawlers to reach plate levels of mitigation since the mitigation nerf in GU64. Mitigation isn't linear it is a curve with a cap. Plate tanks and Brawlers both lost 1000 mit but since plates were over the 75% cap before they didn't lose any real mitigation. Brawlers were only nearing the cap before are now well below the mitigation cap. Even with 6 of those old +77mit adorns I still can't reach the cap anymore while plate tanks easily can with no adorns.</p><p>2) It terms of survivability temps brawlers are no longer king. Ever since they put strikethrough immunity on plate tank temps the plate tanks either have equal number of temps or more depending on AA. Gaurds can get 3 strikethrough immunity temps while brawlers would have to give up dps and utility if they wanted to use tag team as a 3rd temp.</p><p>3) In terms of DPS, agro, and snaps these are all kind of releated in terms of tanking because more dps = more agro.  In straight dps the SK is king which gives them amazing agro. Gaurds have great agro too thanks to their siphon and both have nice snaps.</p><p>4) Now avoidance is dependent on gear. The formula is something base block + block mod. So if you have 20% block chance and 50% block mod then the total real block is 30%. As I said before brawlers have a shield value of about 2200 protection while plate tanks can get mythical shields with 2230 protection. This shield advantage will only grow as better shields come out. Uncontested Parry, Riposte, and dodge chance are the same for all tanks.</p><p>The bottom line here is plate tanks either equal or surpass what a brawler offers in all four areas that matter for tanking. There are some exceptions such as berserkers being weak because of broken death prevent and low survivablity against death touch. But really people are only using brawlers out of ignorance or don't yet have mythical shields for their plate tanks.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When brawlers started to catch up to plate tanks in terms of mitigation the brawlers were quickly nerfed but when the plate tanks not only catch up but surpase the brawlers in terms of avoidance nothing happens.</p></blockquote><p>What's it been... like 2 weeks? How long did it take brawlers to get fixed... 2 expansions?</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> It will lead to plates not needing as much block % freeing up their choices for gear and reforges giving them more options while brawlers will be out of luck.</p></blockquote><p>As a guard specialized for single target defense, I couldn't imagine taking anything over something that increases my uncontested avoidance... assuming threat control is solid. Also, the level cap will most likely increase as higher protection values are seen on shields.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When brawlers started to catch up to plate tanks in terms of mitigation the brawlers were quickly nerfed but when the plate tanks not only catch up but surpase the brawlers in terms of avoidance nothing happens.</p></blockquote><p>What's it been... like 2 weeks? How long did it take brawlers to get fixed... 2 expansions?</p></blockquote><p>Brawlers didn't even need to be changed. At no point in DoV and certainly not in SF was their ever a brawler monopoly. The goal here is to roll back some of that great brawler nerf and not necessarly nerf plate tanks. Ballance has to be achieved one way or another though because a plate tank monopoly is intolerable. If all tanks are supposed to be equal how can you justify plate tanks having both better mitigation and better avoidance as well as competitive agro and snaps.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p>Can't follow your arguments here. You sound like EVERY Plate Tank has a Mythical Shield, better snaps, better tools than a brawler.</p><p>Look at eq2u and count the (raiding) tanks with the mythical shield - would be surprised if you need more than one hand. Then compare again, using the real tools, snaps for every plate tank class individually.</p><p>Result is a fighter balance somewhere in all those attributes. Every class had its perks and downsides. Tbh we never had a more balanced pool of fighter's ever.</p>

[EverDog]

<p>Maybe it is another mythical issue.</p><p>SOE adjusted mythical weapon's damage rates, but not mythical shield's protections.</p><p>Its protection is too high compared to fabled ones.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Mythical Shield is lvl 90; correct? If that is the case the block chance will be adjusted; I'm guessing ~ 2182 if the protection value reduces in a linear fashion.</p><p>In general however brawlers avoid more - the 360* block, and ability to keep your block if you are disarmed. Those two added together mean not only a slightly higher chance to avoid an attack... but more importantly a chance to avoid an attack "when it matters".</p><p>The difference between avoidance/mitigation of the fully buffed tanks is pretty immaterial; autoattack doesn't (and should not) kill tanks. It is the ability to deal with the damage spikes and agro (both snaps and consistant) which makes or breaks a tank.</p>

[Faildozer]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Will have to check your numbers since usually it is always second hand for you.  Looking at the avoidance report tanking commanders for myself versus our Monk he still had 8-10% more actual avoidance though.  Of course I do not have the "Mythical" shield but I do have the PoW shield which finally got a raise in protection value.</p><p>-IF- the gap has closed not sure why there would be such a problem with this since raid geared Brawlers can reach even superior mitigation levels than the plate tanks excepting Guards.</p><p>You can't just look at each thing and try and do a comparison than say that based on that one thing your class is inferior.  You need to look at avoidance, mitigation, survivability temps, DPS, snaps, and agro as a whole to see where the classes really are.</p><p>We still use a Monk and a Bruiser.  That is not changing.</p></blockquote><p>Even looking at all the variables the SK is superior in every way to a Bruiser and the Guard is just straight up superior to a Monk.</p><p>1) It is impossible for brawlers to reach plate levels of mitigation since the mitigation nerf in GU64. Mitigation isn't linear it is a curve with a cap. Plate tanks and Brawlers both lost 1000 mit but since plates were over the 75% cap before they didn't lose any real mitigation. Brawlers were only nearing the cap before are now well below the mitigation cap. Even with 6 of those old +77mit adorns I still can't reach the cap anymore while plate tanks easily can with no adorns.</p><p>2) It terms of survivability temps brawlers are no longer king. Ever since they put strikethrough immunity on plate tank temps the plate tanks either have equal number of temps or more depending on AA. Gaurds can get 3 strikethrough immunity temps while brawlers would have to give up dps and utility if they wanted to use tag team as a 3rd temp.</p><p>3) In terms of DPS, agro, and snaps these are all kind of releated in terms of tanking because more dps = more agro.  In straight dps the SK is king which gives them amazing agro. Gaurds have great agro too thanks to their siphon and both have nice snaps.</p><p>4) Now avoidance is dependent on gear. The formula is something base block + block mod. So if you have 20% block chance and 50% block mod then the total real block is 30%. As I said before brawlers have a shield value of about 2200 protection while plate tanks can get mythical shields with 2230 protection. This shield advantage will only grow as better shields come out. Uncontested Parry, Riposte, and dodge chance are the same for all tanks.</p><p>The bottom line here is plate tanks either equal or surpass what a brawler offers in all four areas that matter for tanking. There are some exceptions such as berserkers being weak because of broken death prevent and low survivablity against death touch. But really people are only using brawlers out of ignorance or don't yet have mythical shields for their plate tanks.</p></blockquote><p>Woah there sparky! guardians get 2 strikethru immune temps.. Im not counting block becuase it blocks ONE auto attack... Also they have to spec for it and dragoons..</p><p>DPS aggro and snaps still goes to brawlers, SKs can parse well on encounters and aoe and should beat brawlers but in terms of straight dps on a named fight, even without recklessness brawlers win and have the most snaps. </p><p>Im not surprised you are talking about how weak brawlers are now and how they were never overpowered despite better players than yourself telling you otherwise.. Brawlers are still tanking everything they were and still bring more to their respective grps than any other tank in terms of utility and dps..</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Let me get this straight, your complaining cause an insanely rare mythical item allows a fraction more avoidance than what is possible by brawlers?</p><p>As if that somehow indicates a sizeable group of players able to surpass them?</p><p>This thread belongs in itemization stating you need updated weapons that modify your own avoidance to be 'in-line' with how much the mythical shield does for plate tanks.</p><p>Personally sounds like you want a mythical offhand that has more avoidance on it rather than a mythical weapon that is dps focused.</p>

[Novusod]

<p>The point I am writing about here is the problem with how they have decided to itemize the protection values on shields. That mythical shield may be rare now but over time better shields will be intoduced especially if the level cap goes up at the end of the year. This is inheirently unfair to brawlers since brawler base avoidance does not increase with level or even if there was a mythical offhand.</p><p>These types of problems tend to go in cycles and we have seen this before. Example being RoK when all plate tanks had more avoidance than brawlers. This led to strikethrough in TSO which only broke brawlers even more. Same trend is happening again even if it just a mythical shield. Small problems turn into big problems if not nipped in the bud. That is what this thread is all about. Raising awareness of problems early on before they get totally out of hand.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p>Just to fix several mistakes in your arguments:</p><p>- Plate tanks are nowhere near the mitigation cap of 75%, except raidbuffed and in defense stance (THEN I get close to the needed 13k mitigation cap), I think guards are the only ones, that still have huge mitigation values.</p><p>- Plate tanks have no dodge or deflection?, just saying</p><p>- Block works different for plate tanks, as we actually have to use a   d a m n   shield and looking straight to the mob, all time, where a brawler can dance around and even turn his back to him and still block. Also Brawler can't  loose this block due to disarm effects.</p><p>- The mythical shield is Level 90? wich lowers its effective shield protection below your 2200 border anyway. And when they introduce shields later with new addons, you also get improved gear, so its balanced.</p>

[Novusod]

<p>- I am refering to raid buffed stats (priest buff + bard specced for defensive songs) and in that regard most geared raid plate tanks will hit the mitigation cap but brawlers cannot.</p><p>- Every tank has equal access to dodge chance (see 3% dodge food and drink + over cap defense turns into dodge chance). Defection no longer exists since it was merged with block chance a few years ago.</p><p>- Shields have trade offs this much is true. Shields have just as much stats as an offhand so you don't lose too much considering there is a swing penalty for dual wielding. Shields also get the added bonus of being able to keep your uncontested avoidance in offensive stance while brawlers if they want to use their base avoidance have to stay in defensive stance. Disarm only lasts a few seconds and if you are good with positioning a mob should never end up behind you.</p><p>- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.</p><p>Just checking but I am sure I got all the ducks in a row on this one.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.</p></blockquote><p>So long as this is kept into account on brawler itemization amounts, this can be managed in a reasonable manner.  Sure, we may see some brawler specific weapons with what seems like insane modifiers in the future, but it can be managed via itemization if they choose to.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.</p></blockquote><p>So long as this is kept into account on brawler itemization amounts, this can be managed in a reasonable manner.  Sure, we may see some brawler specific weapons with what seems like insane modifiers in the future, but it can be managed via itemization if they choose to.</p></blockquote><p>No no and no.  This can't and shouldn't happen ever.  The way SOE makes their items is each of them has a score so if they put lets say a score of 100 on your sword or shield and it doesn't need as much block % that means you would have better stats in other areas meanwhile brawlers would be stuck with less effective weapons because part of their item score would be forced to cover a block % imbalance.</p><p>Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.</p>

[Faildozer]

<p>didnt obano quit playing before gu64 even came out? he wanted to be the first of all the brawlers to quit before getting shelved by their guilds to make way for all plate tanks all the time.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.</p></blockquote><p>I am looking at my mit right now in raid. My raid buffed mitigation is 11695 with mystic, inquis, dirge, assassin, Illy, bruiser. By comparison a guardian has mitigation of 14543 with mystic, inquis, dirge, beastlord, coercer. I can post screenshots if you want to prove this is not a lie.</p><p>Blanka you must have your mit temp running or something. Without your group make up the info you are giving is just distorting the issue by accusing me of lying.</p>

[Silzin]

As a monk in raid i have 11399 with Sin, Illy, Mystic, Temp and Dirge, so its not not just a bruiser thing

[Corydonn]

<p>Oh man what if you had a temporary ability that gave mitigation AND wards.</p>

[Novusod]

<p>Rock Skin is a temp which I have used a few times but a lot of the damage just ignores the ward anyway. The mitigation is nice but it comes at the cost of lost dps/agro and roots me when I really don't want to be rooted. It is a broken ability that has very limited use. Plate tanks get the mitigation without having to use a temp. The balance here that you are trying to imply is a total joke considering this thread is about plate tanks gaining an avoidance advantage over brawlers now as well.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.</p></blockquote><p>I am looking at my mit right now in raid. My raid buffed mitigation is 11695 with mystic, inquis, dirge, assassin, Illy, bruiser. By comparison a guardian has mitigation of 14543 with mystic, inquis, dirge, beastlord, coercer. I can post screenshots if you want to prove this is not a lie.</p><p>Blanka you must have your mit temp running or something. Without your group make up the info you are giving is just distorting the issue by accusing me of lying.</p></blockquote><p>So you can get 11695 not even reforged for mit and you complain, you realize that with buffs etc you will be at cap pretty fast.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you can get 11695 not even reforged for mit and you complain, you realize that with buffs etc you will be at cap pretty fast.</p></blockquote><p>This is the second time you brought up reforging for mit but do you realize there is <span style="color: #ff0000;">NO such thing as reforging for mitigation</span>. And I already told you <span style="color: #ff0000;">that 11695 is already with raid buffs</span> and this is no where near even the soft cap. Also Blanka do you even know what the mitigation cap is for level 98 to 100 mobs? The soft cap for mit is around 15000 where additional mit doesn't make much of a difference. Lets be clear here a brawler is not competitive with plate tanks in terms of mitigation nor should they be. Mitigation is not what I am here to complain about anyway. This thread is about brawlers losing their avoidance advantage to plate tanks.</p><p>When plate tanks have better mitigation and better avoidance with those mythical shields something is wrong with the ballance. The great brawler nerf of GU64 went too far and now plate tanks are just straight up superior.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.</p></blockquote><p>So long as this is kept into account on brawler itemization amounts, this can be managed in a reasonable manner.  Sure, we may see some brawler specific weapons with what seems like insane modifiers in the future, but it can be managed via itemization if they choose to.</p></blockquote><p>No no and no.  This can't and shouldn't happen ever.  The way SOE makes their items is each of them has a score so if they put lets say a score of 100 on your sword or shield and it doesn't need as much block % that means you would have better stats in other areas meanwhile brawlers would be stuck with less effective weapons because part of their item score would be forced to cover a block % imbalance.</p><p>Also, Obano complaining brawlers can't get plate mit levels, I am not even adorned or reforged for mit and I was at 12.5 mit in raid last night.  Obano stop lying.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, I pretty strongly agree this is exactly how it should happen.  This way you need the best gear to get the best avoidance.  They have the ability to change the point cost of a stat on a specific slot.  They have the ability to manually craft items outside of the point scale system.</p><p>Just as plate fighter avoidance increases by getting better gear, brawler avoidance should work the same way, and you absolutely are going to trade off on dps stats on weapons in order to get more avoidance on it.</p><p>Anything else, absolutely won't remain balanced.</p><p>And yes Obano is full of it, brawlers still get plenty of mit if they focus on it.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>- I am refering to raid buffed stats (priest buff + bard specced for defensive songs) and in that regard most geared raid plate tanks will hit the mitigation cap but brawlers cannot.</p><p><em>Brawlers shouldn't be hitting mit cap anyway. What's even the point of having leather? In theory, even scouts should have more mit.</em></p><p>- Every tank has equal access to dodge chance (see 3% dodge food and drink + over cap defense turns into dodge chance). Defection no longer exists since it was merged with block chance a few years ago.</p><p><em>So we're equal here.</em></p><p>- Shields have trade offs this much is true. Shields have just as much stats as an offhand so you don't lose too much considering there is a swing penalty for dual wielding.</p><p><em>Yea, ok.</em></p><p>Shields also get the added bonus of being able to keep your uncontested avoidance in offensive stance while brawlers if they want to use their base avoidance have to stay in defensive stance.</p><p><em>Anything tanked in o-stance is pharm and doesn't matter. I never even use o-stance when I tank anymore, I stay in D and pull more mobs.</em></p><p>Disarm only lasts a few seconds and if you are good with positioning a mob should never end up behind you.</p><p><em>A few seconds with no block sucks balls. No matter how good you are at this game, mobs can, do, and will end up behind you.</em></p><p>- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.</p><p><em>So far this hasn't happened and isn't a problem, but thanks for your concern.</em></p><p>Just checking but I am sure I got all the ducks in a row on this one.</p></blockquote>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>- I am refering to raid buffed stats (priest buff + bard specced for defensive songs) and in that regard most geared raid plate tanks will hit the mitigation cap but brawlers cannot.</p><p><em>Brawlers shouldn't be hitting mit cap anyway. What's even the point of having leather? In theory, even scouts should have more mit.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">I am not saying brawlers should be hitting the mitigation cap. The point I am trying to make here is how do you justify plate tanks having superior mitigation and avoidance that equals or surpasses a brawlers. Tanking is set up in two ways: avoidance tanking and mitigation tanking. Plate tanks are gaining a monopoly on both. The current situation is not ballanced. Plate tanks are just straight up superior atm.</span></p><p>- Every tank has equal access to dodge chance (see 3% dodge food and drink + over cap defense turns into dodge chance). Defection no longer exists since it was merged with block chance a few years ago.</p><p><em>So we're equal here.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">It is a small part of the problem but not the main point.</span></p><p>- Shields have trade offs this much is true. Shields have just as much stats as an offhand so you don't lose too much considering there is a swing penalty for dual wielding.</p><p><em>Yea, ok.</em></p><p>Shields also get the added bonus of being able to keep your uncontested avoidance in offensive stance while brawlers if they want to use their base avoidance have to stay in defensive stance.</p><p><em>Anything tanked in o-stance is pharm and doesn't matter. I never even use o-stance when I tank anymore, I stay in D and pull more mobs.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Are you pulling multiple names or tanking all the adds + the named in you all powerful D-stance? I certainly can't do that on my brawler. Trash mobs are irelevent if that is what you are talking about.</span></p><p>Disarm only lasts a few seconds and if you are good with positioning a mob should never end up behind you.</p><p><em>A few seconds with no block sucks balls. No matter how good you are at this game, mobs can, do, and will end up behind you.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Before plate tanks started getting brawler like avoidance this did not used to be a big deal. Plate tanks are supposed to mitigate damage. Avoidance is secondary to a plate tank and should not make or break you over a few seconds. Brawlers on the other hand use avoidance as their primary defense. This is why brawlers were given 360 degree avoid + disarmed avoidance because it is their primary way of defending themselves.</span></p><p>- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.</p><p><em>So far this hasn't happened and isn't a problem, but thanks for your concern.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">It already has happened with Mythical shield update. There are already some plate tanks with more avoidance than brawlers. That is what this thread is about.</span></p><p>Just checking but I am sure I got all the ducks in a row on this one.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">It seems like you are argueing from the standpoint that plate tanks entitled to having both superior mitigation and avoidance. Having your cake and eating it too is not ballance. There is no point to having avoidance tanks in the game if the brawlers are not given an avoidance advantage over the mitigation tanks.</span></p>

[Corydonn]

<p>If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Are these 30+% weapons even dropping in game any more?  I know of some that are old HM drunder, and think the new ones have it as an ability so it will not stack.  Am i wrong... please tell me i am wrong? does any one have in game links for the new brawler deffensive HM drunder weapons?</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% + block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% + block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.</p></blockquote><p>I'm fairly sure the only thing a bigger protection value shield just lowers the block chance a plate tank needs to cap out. Since before brawlers did at 179% block and a plate tank needed 259% or something. Which was imbalanced as it wsa.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% + block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.</p></blockquote><p>I'm fairly sure the only thing a bigger protection value shield just lowers the block chance a plate tank needs to cap out. Since before brawlers did at 179% block and a plate tank needed 259% or something. Which was imbalanced as it wsa.</p></blockquote><p>Really Corydonn you seem to have trouble putting two and two together here. If you say that was imbalanced when plate tanks needed more + block to cap out than a brawler then the new paradigm must be even more imbalanced now that the situation is reversed.</p><p>You see with a mythical shield a plate now has a greater base protection value than the bralwer shield.</p><p>Brawler has a static 24% avoidance that is roughly equal to 2200 protection. If a brawler has 179% + block mod they cap out at 66.9% real avoidance.</p><p>With a mythical sheild 2230 protection equalling 24.24% base avoidance the same 66.9% real avoidance cap can be reached with just  176% +block mod now.</p><p>Is it fair? Is it ballanced? I am going to say NO WAY especially considering the brawler is supposed to be the avoidance tank here. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt I am correct here in saying that plate tanks have surpased brawlers in terms of avoidance.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>Yes because brawlers have options to 30% block chance items. For both hands.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Are you pulling multiple names or tanking all the adds + the named in you all powerful D-stance? I certainly can't do that on my brawler. </span></p><p><em>Often I end up temporarily tanking the named and multiple adds, yea.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Trash mobs are irelevent if that is what you are talking about.</span></p><p><em>O-stance is irrelevant.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Brawlers on the other hand use avoidance as their primary defense. This is why brawlers were given 360 degree avoid + disarmed avoidance because it is their primary way of defending themselves.</span></p><p>So then brawlers have superior avoidance as I agree they should.</p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes because brawlers have options to 30% block chance items. For both hands.</p></blockquote><p>Please reread my earlier post:</p><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span >You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well.</span><span > The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% +block mod. </span><span >All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.</span></p></blockquote><p><span >Having to get two +30% block items is not an advantage when plate takes can get the same or better avoidacne with just one shield.</span></p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Are you pulling multiple names or tanking all the adds + the named in you all powerful D-stance? I certainly can't do that on my brawler. </span></p><p><em>Often I end up temporarily tanking the named and multiple adds, yea.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Trash mobs are irelevent if that is what you are talking about.</span></p><p><em>O-stance is irrelevant.</em></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">Brawlers on the other hand use avoidance as their primary defense. This is why brawlers were given 360 degree avoid + disarmed avoidance because it is their primary way of defending themselves.</span></p><p>So then brawlers have superior avoidance as I agree they should.</p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>Your conclusion is way off base. So brawlers get to have a few seconds of superior avoidance while being disarmed for a few seconds while 99.5% of the rest of the fight the plate tank has better avoidance. That is not even close to being ballanced. Pop a temp if you are so concerned about being disarmed it will more than cover the 4 or 5 seconds you are disarmed.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>A mythical shield. Quit trying to get other classes nerfed since this is obviously a plate tank troll topic of being mad.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A mythical shield. Quit trying to get other classes nerfed since this is obviously a plate tank troll topic of being mad.</p></blockquote><p>In other words you conceed the point because you lost the argument on all logical grounds.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A mythical shield. Quit trying to get other classes nerfed since this is obviously a plate tank troll topic of being mad.</p></blockquote><p>In other words you conceed the point because you lost the argument on all logical grounds.</p></blockquote><p>There is no logic behind what you are saying a brawler with block weapons will have more avoidance than a plate tank with myth shield. There is no winning with you, "My ideas are right even ripostes effecting fail effects because I say so."</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>He also continuously ignores the shield is level 90.</p><p>A level 1 plate tank with a handcrafted shield has like 60% uncontested block. mad?</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>He also continuously ignores the shield is level 90.</p><p>A level 1 plate tank with a handcrafted shield has like 60% uncontested block. mad?</p></blockquote><p>It is the level of the wearer not the level of the shield that matters. The reason a level 1 plate tank got 60% uncontested block from even the junkiest of shields was because a level 1 character required very little block protection to reach the cap. This was tested quite extensively a few years back. A level 92 player with 2230 protection gains 24.24% block. The level of the shield does not change the conversion. If you have a different formula that proves I wrong I would like to see it.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>A level 92 player will get more block from a level 92 shield with 2k protection than a level 90 shield with 2k protection.</p>

[Silzin]

ok, i just did a basic test. a lvl 26 Pally with a shield, had 17.9% Block Chance. leveled to 27 and maxed Defensive skilled. Same shield, block is know 16.6%. so the level of the user does have an effect on the % of block you get from a shield. If there is something wrong with my test let me know.

[EverDog]

<p>What I believe is that Shield Block Chance is actually contested with Enemy's Level.</p><p>What detemines Actuall block chance are 1,Item Level of the Shield 2,Protection of the Shield 3,Block Chance Mod 4,Enemy's Level who attacks you.</p><p>What Persona window show us is just X% only when the opponent is at your level.</p><p>I can be wrong but at least i believe so.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>EverDog wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can be wrong but at least i believe so.</p></blockquote><p>You are wrong, block is uncontested regardless of anyone's level, and it's been this way for YEARS.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=481258" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=481258</a></p><p>If you don't belive the post from Xelgad himself, make a level 1 tank and pull city guards and marvel as you block 60% of their auto attacks.</p><p>And yes, a lower level shield gives less block chance than a higher level shield with the same protection. Want to know a secret? Physical and magical mitigation work the same way and have for YEARS. People need to learn how the game works before they argue about avoidance balance.</p>

[Koleg]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>mythical shield</blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>mythical shield</blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>mythical shield</blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>mythical shield</blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>mythical shield</blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>mythical shield</blockquote><p>You have officially said 'Mythical shield" more times in this thread than exist in the game.  If you're worried about future itemization in the fall GU then maybe wait until the GU hits the test server to see what the itemization is going to be.  If your P.O.'ed about 6 plate fighters having a higher avoid/mit than 2600 brawlers than just forget it.</p>

[Novusod]

<p>The fact still remains a level 92 plate tank with the best sheild in the game will have more avoidance than the best brawlers. There are only a handful of raiding slots a the high end and if there are more of these shields than are slots than brawlers could end up getting shut out of the top tier raid game. They are making the next GU as this debate is going on. Supposedly these mythicals will be needed to defeat Kerafyrm and will be made even better afterward. This thread is to ensure that brawlers get adjusted so they are always top in avoidance and remain viable tanks in raids.</p>

[Faildozer]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>brawlers could end up getting shut out of the top tier raid game. </p></blockquote><p>You make it sound like brawlers are liker zerkers and arent still amazing tanks.. You must be terrible if you feel like brawlers are this close to no longer being viable tank options...</p>

[Novusod]

<p>I did very well as a tank prior to GU64 but after the great brawler nerf not so well. My bruiser is in pretty much the same boat as my Zerker. The Zerker is actually very under rated right now for some fights because of their passive and temp ability to heal through unwardable damage. Meanwhile the bruiser is incredibly weak against this type of damage. If I dodge I take damage, if I get hit I take damage. Lose - Lose situation. The whole deal has me considering just switching to Zerker. </p>

[Corydonn]

<p>The game was just cleared by a guild with two bruisers on the roster. Arguement invalid.</p>

[Faildozer]

<p>Wow just wow.. You think every other class doesnt have to deal with the on melee or the on avoid damage?? Ill give you a hint that im sure you knew being the tanking guru you clearly are.. The avoid one? doesnt hit for as much and the on hit one? doesnt hit for much now either.. GL with tanking on a zerker tho, clearly that will solve all your tanking problems.. Im surprised all the other end game raiding zerkers arent doing as well as the brawlers are, oh wait, im not surprised..</p><p>Whats hilarious is you are talking about how you are going to switch to your zerker (lol) because your bruiser is so bad (lol) when like cory said the xpac was just cleared using 2 bruisers... You cant make this stuff up man.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The fact still remains a level 92 plate tank with the best sheild in the game will have more avoidance than the best brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow just wow.. You think every other class doesnt have to deal with the on melee or the on avoid damage?? Ill give you a hint that im sure you knew being the tanking guru you clearly are.. <span style="color: #ff0000;">The avoid one? doesnt hit for as much and the on hit one? </span>doesnt hit for much now either.. GL with tanking on a zerker tho, clearly that will solve all your tanking problems.. Im surprised all the other end game raiding zerkers arent doing as well as the brawlers are, oh wait, im not surprised..</p><p>Whats hilarious is you are talking about how you are going to switch to your zerker (lol) because your bruiser is so bad (lol) when like cory said the xpac was just cleared using 2 bruisers... You cant make this stuff up man.</p></blockquote><p>That is not true. Goreslaughter's on hit damage for my bruiser was between 16k to 18k while the on avoid damage was between 30k and 38k. Guess which one was killing me faster. Bruiser is pretty much junk tank while taking that kind of damage.</p><p>Also the <a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/244567243" target="_blank">Mythical Shield</a> on Eq2wire is reading as level 92 with 2230 protection and there are atleast 15 of them floating around. Probably are 100s of them considering they drop from Sky Shrine instance that can be farmed every 90 minutes. So lets stop with lying about shield level lets get back on topic of plate tanks having more avoidance than brawlers.</p><p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.</p></blockquote><p>I will get you an avoidance report as soon as I am done farming my own mythical shield.</p>

[EverDog]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>If you don't belive the post from Xelgad himself, make a level 1 tank and pull city guards and marvel as you block 60% of their auto attacks</p></blockquote> <p>I heard that there is 'protecting lvl 1 chatacter system' which provide a massive avoidance bonus to lvl 1 character.</p><p>If this is the case, you can not test anything by using lvl 1 character.</p><p>Also, if protections and mitigations are not contested with Enemy's level but your own level,</p><p>it will bring a problem like you hit next level and you lose your actual block chance and mitigation</p><p>that sounds strange.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>EverDog wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Also, if protections and mitigations are not contested with Enemy's level but your own level,<p>it will bring a problem like you hit next level and you lose your actual block chance and mitigation</p><p>that sounds strange.</p></blockquote><p>Well... that's exactly how it works. Haven't you ever looked at the percent mitigation you get on a piece of gear? It says right on the gear how much you get and as you level up, it goes down. Ever looked at your block chance after you level up? I have some bad news for ya... it goes down.</p><p>Block chance can be tested at any level... if you are level 30 with 20% block chance you should expect to block roughly 20% auto attacks from level 100x4 mobs. Which, a level 30 blocking anything from a 100x4 pretty much proves it's uncontested. I mean, I can prove it to you guys if you want, but it's gonna be a day or two before I have the time and feel like it. As if Xelgad's word isn't proof enough.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >The fact still remains a level 92 plate tank with the best sheild in the game will have more avoidance than the best brawlers.</span><p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.</p></blockquote><p>I will get you an avoidance report as soon as I am done farming my own mythical shield.</p></blockquote><p>So you have no proof or any way to test/prove it... got it.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow just wow.. You think every other class doesnt have to deal with the on melee or the on avoid damage?? Ill give you a hint that im sure you knew being the tanking guru you clearly are.. <span style="color: #ff0000;">The avoid one? doesnt hit for as much and the on hit one? </span>doesnt hit for much now either.. GL with tanking on a zerker tho, clearly that will solve all your tanking problems.. Im surprised all the other end game raiding zerkers arent doing as well as the brawlers are, oh wait, im not surprised..</p><p>Whats hilarious is you are talking about how you are going to switch to your zerker (lol) because your bruiser is so bad (lol) when like cory said the xpac was just cleared using 2 bruisers... You cant make this stuff up man.</p></blockquote><p>That is not true. Goreslaughter's on hit damage for my bruiser was between 16k to 18k while the on avoid damage was between 30k and 38k. Guess which one was killing me faster. Bruiser is pretty much junk tank while taking that kind of damage.</p><p>Also the <a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/244567243" target="_blank">Mythical Shield</a> on Eq2wire is reading as level 92 with 2230 protection and there are atleast 15 of them floating around. Probably are 100s of them considering they drop from Sky Shrine instance that can be farmed every 90 minutes. So lets stop with lying about shield level lets get back on topic of plate tanks having more avoidance than brawlers.</p><p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.</p></blockquote><p>I will get you an avoidance report as soon as I am done farming my own mythical shield.</p></blockquote><p>Let me get this straight.  You cry how immunity to strikethrough removal has ruined brawler tanking because we now avoid less, but then you admit it is better to avoid less as you take lesser damage from getting hit.  Then you are complaining that plates get more avoidance yet you ignore the fact that you just pointed out it is better not to avoid anyways.</p><p>Obano the reason why brawlers with knowledge weren't crying the way you were about these changes is because we grasp the basic simple knowledge you just can't seem to get your mind around.  They weren't that bad of changes.</p><p>I will admit that as itemization increases on shields it gives plates a distinctive advantage when it comes to base block which is absolutely unfair and unbalancing.  In fact I pointed it out weeks before you and basically you are just repeating my observations on it.  However, the sky isn't falling yet and since block caps at 70% anyways it really will never be a major issue, just a minor one.</p>

[EverDog]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well... that's exactly how it works. Haven't you ever looked at the percent mitigation you get on a piece of gear? It says right on the gear how much you get and as you level up, it goes down. Ever looked at your block chance after you level up? I have some bad news for ya... it goes down.</p></blockquote><p>If you take what tooltips say as literal, then you have to say physical mitigation is contested with opponent's level.</p><p>Because tooltips clearly say "You will absorb X % of the damage from your level's opponent" or "Absorbs X % vs. your level".</p>

[The_Cheeseman]

<p>I've been saying for years that EQ2's avoidance mechanics are a nonsensical mess. The devs keep raising the average level of MOBs we fight and granting them progressively more powerful buff packages, which has pretty much negated contested avoidance rolls. This means that characters are forced to rely almost exclusively on uncontested block, which the devs really don't have an effective means of manipulating. This lead to such imbecilic mechanics as strikethrough and avoidance-triggered damage procs. There isn't much they can do to control avoidance via itemization, either, since the only stat that's relevant to every fighter class is +block.</p><p>Really, I think the only way to actually solve the problem would be to completely eliminate the concept of uncontested avoidance (except on short duration temps) and try to rebalance contested avoidance skills so that they serve a relevant purpose in all content. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in SOE's ability to succeed with such a revamp.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>EverDog wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well... that's exactly how it works. Haven't you ever looked at the percent mitigation you get on a piece of gear? It says right on the gear how much you get and as you level up, it goes down. Ever looked at your block chance after you level up? I have some bad news for ya... it goes down.</p></blockquote><p>If you take what tooltips say as literal, then you have to say physical mitigation is contested with opponent's level.</p><p>Because tooltips clearly say "You will absorb X % of the damage from your level's opponent" or "Absorbs X % vs. your level".</p></blockquote><p>Why would you think mitigation is contested because of the armor text... the mob doesn't make a roll against your mit to see how much damage you soak. But as you level up your mit and protection values are less effective for your level, which forces you to get new higher level gear which is the point of that mechanic</p><p>I don't know why this is so complicated or hard to grasp. What it comes down to is a level 25 guard can wear a BP that gives 4.6% mit vs lvl 25. Wear the same BP at 92 and it's going to say 0.1% mit vs lvl 92. Which makes sense... do you expect to wear level 25 gear and it do diddly fk at level 92? Do you think your feysteel tower shield giving 12% block at level 25 is still going to give your 12% block at level 92? No. Does a level 1 handcrafted shield that gives a level 1 60% block still give 60% block when you level up to 92? Of course not.</p><p>But this doesn't matter to the thread if the myth shield is 92.</p>

[Silzin]

From Dev posts in the past and tests in game the way that Mit and Shield Protection works is as follows: 1st, Shield Protection - The Level of the Item Verses the level of the User. As the item becomes lower level from you the user its Protection become Diminished. the Level of the Mob you are fighting has nothing to do with this calculation. 2nd, Mitigation - the Level of the Armor Verses the Level of the Mob. In this calculation your level has nothing to do with this, neither does the mobs skill's. The Mitigation you see is what you will get against a lvl equivalent mob that is nether up^, or Down^. As a mob gains more ^^^ or becomes X4 it gains Less effectiveness. This is why a tank need around 15k Mitigation to get 75% Mit.

[EverDog]

<p>Well, so long as shields and protections concerned, it seems that i have to prepare the white flag.</p><p>I made lvl2 zerker and watched if he can block vs. lvl85(x4) guardians in Neriak.</p><p>He still blocked about 20% of incoming melee attacks.</p><p>I have no idea why SOE made physical mitigation contested with Opponents level, but Shields and Protections contested with user's own level,not enemy's level.</p><p>Same opponents, same equipments, you hit next level then it decreases your uncontested block chance.</p><p>Anyway it seems that.</p><p>Thanks.</p><p>Also, because combats vs. red nameds are extraordinary,</p><p>I used my monk and guardian to see how much they can block vs. Ernax Heridion(lvl96x4).</p><p>But i couldnt get any solid data.</p><p>Ernax Heridion might have about 30% strikethrough because both fighter's actual block chances were too low compared to their uncontested block chances.</p><p>I will keep tests vs. orange nameds or yellow nameds when i have time though.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let me get this straight.  You cry how immunity to strikethrough removal has ruined brawler tanking because we now avoid less, but then you admit it is better to avoid less as you take lesser damage from getting hit.  Then you are complaining that plates get more avoidance yet you ignore the fact that you just pointed out it is better not to avoid anyways.</p><p>Obano the reason why brawlers with knowledge weren't crying the way you were about these changes is because we grasp the basic simple knowledge you just can't seem to get your mind around.  They weren't that bad of changes.</p><p>I will admit that as itemization increases on shields it gives plates a distinctive advantage when it comes to base block which is absolutely unfair and unbalancing.  In fact I pointed it out weeks before you and basically you are just repeating my observations on it.  However, the sky isn't falling yet and since block caps at 70% anyways it really will never be a major issue, just a minor one.</p></blockquote><p>You are forgetting how mitigation figures into the survivability equation. If a brawler gets hit too many times they simply die from melee damage because of lack of mitigation. On certain bosses like Goreslaughter the avoid damage hits so hard it kills me. So it is either die to direct melee hits or die to avoid damage. It is not me trying to argue both ways that avoidance is good and bad. It is the way the mechanics work to put me in a lose lose situation.</p><p>Plate tanks can fall back on their mitigation while brawlers cannot. The reason other brawlers are not complaining yet is because they did most of their progression when brawlers were still very strong. It really sucks to be a brawler right now if you are still trying to break into hard content. I am very confident when the next round of new content comes out everyone will be using plate tanks and not the weakened state of brawlers.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let me get this straight.  You cry how immunity to strikethrough removal has ruined brawler tanking because we now avoid less, but then you admit it is better to avoid less as you take lesser damage from getting hit.  Then you are complaining that plates get more avoidance yet you ignore the fact that you just pointed out it is better not to avoid anyways.</p><p>Obano the reason why brawlers with knowledge weren't crying the way you were about these changes is because we grasp the basic simple knowledge you just can't seem to get your mind around.  They weren't that bad of changes.</p><p>I will admit that as itemization increases on shields it gives plates a distinctive advantage when it comes to base block which is absolutely unfair and unbalancing.  In fact I pointed it out weeks before you and basically you are just repeating my observations on it.  However, the sky isn't falling yet and since block caps at 70% anyways it really will never be a major issue, just a minor one.</p></blockquote><p>You are forgetting how mitigation figures into the survivability equation. If a brawler gets hit too many times they simply die from melee damage because of lack of mitigation. On certain bosses like Goreslaughter the avoid damage hits so hard it kills me. So it is either die to direct melee hits or die to avoid damage. It is not me trying to argue both ways that avoidance is good and bad. It is the way the mechanics work to put me in a lose lose situation.</p><p>Plate tanks can fall back on their mitigation while brawlers cannot. The reason other brawlers are not complaining yet is because they did most of their progression when brawlers were still very strong. It really sucks to be a brawler right now if you are still trying to break into hard content. I am very confident when the next round of new content comes out everyone will be using plate tanks and not the weakened state of brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>I am not forgetting anything, I already pointed out I am over 12k mit on raids thats before procs temps etc, there isn't a mit problem at all.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>The only problem I have as a bruiser is that mobs are dumb needing ACT for stoneskins because the avoidance proc effects eat through Stone Deaf. Which is totally dumb!</p>

[Faildozer]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only problem I have as a bruiser is that mobs are dumb needing ACT for stoneskins because the avoidance proc effects eat through Stone Deaf. Which is totally dumb!</p></blockquote><p>worse than that is the small 3k hits that will knock off a trigger of your stoneskin before the last 2 hits for 150k go thru.. Also love when people are charmed on tagrin and take off all my stoneskins right after the first 2 hits of the DT hit..</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>do me a solid and unequip your offhand everytime you go defensive and get your free ~2200 protection.</p><p>then come complain about plate tanks getting 30 more than you (the few that are lucky enough to get the myth drop)</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>do me a solid and unequip your offhand everytime you go defensive and get your free ~2200 protection.</p><p>then come complain about plate tanks getting 30 more than you (the few that are lucky enough to get the myth drop)</p></blockquote><p>Do me a solid? English please, what are you talking about.</p><p>It you think Plate tanks can't get +block chance from their mainhand <a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1026098856" target="_blank">think again</a>. There are several items like this that allow plate tanks to gain superior avoidance. Over powered plate tanks have it easy now. They get the best of both worlds best avoidance and high mitigation plus other tools to deal with unwardable on avoidance damage.</p><p>Tonight I watched under an geared Pally tank easily tank a named that was continuously one shotting me. Unballanced game is unballanced.</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>do me a solid and unequip your offhand everytime you go defensive and get your free ~2200 protection.</p><p>then come complain about plate tanks getting 30 more than you (the few that are lucky enough to get the myth drop)</p></blockquote><p>Do me a solid? English please, what are you talking about.</p><p>It you think Plate tanks can't get +block chance from their mainhand <a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/1026098856" target="_blank">think again</a>. There are several items like this that allow plate tanks to gain superior avoidance. Over powered plate tanks have it easy now. They get the best of both worlds best avoidance and high mitigation plus other tools to deal with unwardable on avoidance damage.</p><p>Tonight I watched under an geared Pally tank easily tank a named that was continuously one shotting me. Unballanced game is unballanced.</p></blockquote><p>What dident you understand what he just typed out? Was it really so hard? It got nothing to do with block chance on weapons. Plate tanks need to use a shield to gain block. All you are talking about atm is plate tanks having more avoidance.... Played right with both brawlers still have more. If not then pls post a few parses and we can all have a look at them. If a undergeared pally tank better than you i guess hes a much better tank than you are... Just saying. A guard might be more defensiv than you are atm that i can agree with. but they should aswell... Since they trade off both dps aoe hate and usefull utility to do so. Brawlers can still tank very well and are abit more balanced now. I find it funny that you think your zerk is a better tank now aswell... Just that shows how much you know about anything.</p>

[ZUES]

<p>Reforging offers strikethrough, AE autoattack and other things that brawlers lacked before as well. With proper reforging, any tank class is now just as good as the next. Reforging is the best thing to ever happen to class balance!</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>ZUES wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reforging offers strikethrough, AE autoattack and other things that brawlers lacked before as well. With proper reforging, any tank class is now just as good as the next. Reforging is the best thing to ever happen to class balance!</p></blockquote><p>But you are wrong. Strikethrough has been on the monk epic for a long time. They did have abit lower aoe auto tho but they had a nice aoe proc on top of that. Going over the cap on aoe auto does nothing for a plate tank but now when brawlers are sitting at 100% if they want to they still have that buff aswell. And that have screwed up balance alot. It all comes down to saves and snap aggro atm. And brawlers still beat most of the tanks with that aswell... </p>

[hoosierdaddy]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tonight I watched under an geared Pally tank easily tank a named that was continuously one shotting me. Unballanced game is unballanced.</p></blockquote><p>Oh my goodness! A non-brawler able to tank something a brawler couldn't. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Welcome to being any fighter class besides a brawler or guardian for the last two and a half years.</p><p>As someone has said elsewhere, instead of being Super-OP'd now, you're just OP'd.</p><p>That being said, our raid force still uses two brawlers and a crusader.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">TLDR</span>: Rumors of the brawlers demise as raid tanks any time soon is greatly exaggerated in this thread. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>