The BG queue doesn't know or care that Groups and Raids need healers

[Neonblue]

<p>Obviously this is the biggest issue with BGs atm.  Although its good guild fun to go 700-0 and not allow the other teams to get any kills for their quest updates several matches in a row, it's not exactly fun or challenging.  And it's extremely frustrating for the other team.</p><p>Problem:  People can leave the queue, so once you start that one minute countdown a healer can queue and decline and teams get stuck with no healer.  This has to be addressed (I am assuming the queue TRIES to get a healer, RIGHT??!?!?!). For example: Dont start a countdown until the groups are set for example, and reduced to maybe 20 sec.  I don't want to slaughter a group any more than they want to get slaughtered.  Maybe give them a surrender option?</p><p>I think better quality matches is more important than queue speed.  My wife and I would love to play our mages, but we have not been queued together in any BG with a group or raid that has a full compliment of healers compared to the other team, so one of us is always FORCED to play a healer.  I would rather wait another minute of queue time for a good group than just running around trying to do the most dps and to get as many kills in before we die without a healer. </p><p>I don't know if you understand how powerful healer are in BGs?  Maybe this is where giving Mages a "Heal Stance" and Scouts a "Tank Stance", in somewhat of a follow up to the Reckless stance should be discused.</p>

[apwyork]

<p>It seems to queue up healer just fine if you're playing one.  I brought my priest into bg and got almost exclusively other priests in the groups <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>My sk on the other hand get teamed up with fighters for the most part.</p>

[Ravensbelly]

<p>i was playing on my mystic, got in to a gears match that was, mystic x2 warden x2 templar guardian. we had such low damage that the match was just about who was able to pick up the relic first</p>

[Twyxx]

<p>They've known this is broken and have said that it's a fairly large project.  Dunno if we'll see anything soon on it.  Though it was the biggest issue facing bgs before the revamp and still is.</p>

[Windstalker]

<p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address. </p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too! </p>

[Kryvak]

<p>I have to disagree here... <a href="http://i.imgur.com/tyw95.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/tyw95.jpg</a></p><p>[Edited for large, page-breaking image.]</p>

[Delethen]

<p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address. </p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too! </p></blockquote><p>Really hope you can take a look at the queue system because it seems like there is a pretty major problem with it - ignoring everything else, it seems as though if a char is put on the white team and doesn't quit out, the matchmaker still thinks he is on either the blue or red team and so doesn't get a replacement for them.</p>

[Luhai]

<p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address.</p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too!</p></blockquote><p>The queue does NOT care about healers. We have a pretty small player base on Valor doing BGs. We're talking about less than 20 people sitting in the Champion's Respite queuing for matches.</p><p>While I'm typing this I am fighting in a BG, having 2 healers on my team (3 players) and 0 on the other team (3 players). The match is random, not pre-made. We see stuff like this all the time: 3 tanks and 0 healers vs. healer/healer/mage/scout. Or 4 mages against healer/healer/tank/scout/mage.</p><p>Even when a healer joins in several minutes later he gets randomly assigned to one team, even if that one already has a healer and the other one does not.</p><p>This "big project" is a known problem for more than 2 years now...</p>

[Dorsan]

I've been in a game with 0 healers on my team and 4 healers on the other team. Here is a suggestion: Gears: wait until 2 healers, tanks, scouts and mages que. Assign 1 of each archetype to groups 1 and 2. Wait until all 8 people accept or decline the invite. If they all accepted get 4 random people and get them to teams. If 1 or more people refuse to zone in do not fill the empty spots with random people but wait until appropriate classes appear (check if the 2 random people were appropriate classes first). Ganak: Same thing, just double the number of people. Smugglers: Same thing, just x4 the number of people. Also do not make the raids form as they do now, put healer 1 to group 1, healer 2 to group 2, etc. Once you have the 4 archetypes in all 4 groups you can start filling the raid as you do now. Would fix so many problems.

[Neonblue]

<p>LOL,  Now if I queue as a healer I get nothing but healers on my team.  And it seems to work similar with my scout and mages, they get likewise grouped with mostly scouts or mages.   </p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address. </p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too! </p></blockquote><p>It's not rocket surgery.</p><p>You don't zone anyone in until you have the required min number of people and classes click the accept button.  Holding the match until the sufficient min build has accepted is reasonable and simple.</p><p>Sure, you need to add another window indicating why the delay, but all in all, you'll have a hard time finding players that would disagree with this change.</p>

[apwyork]

<p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address. </p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too! </p></blockquote><p>The issue should be corrected before a match begins.  Get the players, then create the teams.  The way it's set up currently does a pisspoor job of assigning any player types.  Was just in a Ganak bg and the opposing force had 3 healers before my team even got 1.  And that's all we got.  Ended up 4 priests to our 1 so yeah, we just fed their score and got nothing for the time we spent.  11 tokens while being one of the most effective players on the team is a joke. </p><p>It all comes down to who can get heals and who can't.   Simply put, if you don't get healers you may as well just leave the match because it's not worth the frustration.</p><p>Overall, it's not even really an issue of token rewards so much as a predetermined outcome, with little skill or ability at all.  When I was in Gears earlier, each team had the same number of healers.  We stood there in the center and traded blows back and forth for the entire match and in the end, only 6 people were killed on both sides combined.  Neither side could get and maintain an advantage over the other.   The next match was 2 priests on opposing force with 4 dps and tanks plus dps on my side, no priests.  We scored 0 points in the match.  Once the opposing team got the relic, we couldn't kill the carrier before we were wiped.  Priests or the lack thereof are determining the match before it even starts.</p>

[Gealaen_Gaiamancer]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address. </p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too! </p></blockquote><p>It's not rocket surgery.</p><p>You don't zone anyone in until you have the required min number of people and classes click the accept button.  Holding the match until the sufficient min build has accepted is reasonable and simple.</p><p>Sure, you need to add another window indicating why the delay, but all in all, you'll have a hard time finding players that would disagree with this change.</p></blockquote><p>Rocket surgery.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I can imagine a new interface window for BG queuing that goes something like this:</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Group 1:</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Archetype | Level | Ready (Not Accepted Yet, Accepted)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Healer | 92 | <span style="color: #00ff00;">Accepted</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Tank | 92 | <span style="color: #800000;">Not Accepted</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Scout | 91 | <span style="color: #00ff00;">Accepted</span></p><p>etc.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Then the queue grabs folks for each group in the upcoming BG, offers the BG to at least one tank, healer, and DPS--PER GROUP--and then fills the remaining slots with anyone else queued.  Folks who queued can see the group fill up (with archetype, not necessarily the name of player) and a red light/icon for "Not Accepted Yet" that turns green/etc when that person accepts the BG.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Then add logic to replace folks who drop out when they see that they're up against some really scary folks ... but replace them with a close fit when possible (replace a healer with a healer, etc).</p>

[Snoops]

<p>Klak is pointless and boring to do when there's 3-4 healers per team, which there nearly always is when I play my defiler. I almost always que only for ganak/smugs because there's a little more flexibility in that you can move groups around and I'm not stuck on a team with 2-3 other shaman (happens all the dang time).</p>

[apwyork]

<p>It's pretty sad when a team gets absolutely 0 points for the simple reason that the opforce had 2-3 times as many priests so they could never even get a single kill.  I've been on both sides of that situation and honestly, unless you just want the tokens, winning or losing in those situations sucks since one side had no chance and the other side had no challenge.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p>I had to que grouped with a healer to have a decent game. Whenever I solo que I get this:</p><p><img src="http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3714/noheals.jpg" /></p><p>And usually the enemy team has 2-4 healers. But did I have better games when I qued grouped with a healer? No! What happened was, we got 1-3 additional healers every game and the enemy team got none.</p><p>The matchmaker is completely broken.</p>

[Peak]

<p><cite>Windstalker wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The queue definitely cares about healers and we are aware of the issue. The OP basically has it right in terms of players leaving the queue which is where this issue is primarily coming from. And while it definitely is a big project to fix (including other matchmaking improvements we want to do), that issue at the very least is one we need to address. </p><p>The team is actively discussing it and we will update you when we can talk about solutions. The suggestions are good too! </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/peZcc.jpg" width="1920" height="1058" /></p><p>I'm lol'in right now.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p>I am pretty sure I've figured out where the bug is in the matchmaker. If there is a premade with a healer in it, the matchmaker will put all qued healers into that group/raid. I have noticed this because every single time I que with a healer we get more healers and the enemy gets 0 and when I que without a healer it is often that the enemy side gets all the healers and we got none. And in the last game that was 0 vs 6 healers Ganak, the enemy team had a premade with 2 haelers in it. So this is clearly not random, it is a pattern and it is a huge bug with the matchmaker.</p>

[NolaDragon]

<p>All Druid groups FTW <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Gealaen_Gaiamancer]

<p style="text-align: justify;">I got to be on the receiving end of a multi-healer gears group last night.  They didn't appear to be a pre-built, just "lucky" on the queue.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p style="text-align: justify;">When match started I saw that there were 2 wardens in their group against me as only healer in my group.  It didn't seem to be too bad at first.  After being able to hold the relic for a few passes, the op force picked it up and then kept it for the rest of the game.  Groupmate noticed that they weren't putting out much damage, but a heck of a lot of healing kept all of them alive very nicely.  It wasn't till the match ended that I had a chance (hey, I was busy!) to look at the leaderboard again and see that the queue, in it's awesomeness, had actually given them ... a third warden!  After I saw that, I was actually happy with the 250ish score that my group managed to bag in gears, lol.</p><p style="text-align: justify;">Fortunately, all of the other matches I did were a bit more equitably constructed, 1-on-1 or 2-on-2 heals.</p>

[Davngr]

<p>what type of healers does not matter but when you get one side of the match with 6 healers and the other with none..   i mean that type of blatant imbalance should not happen as often as it does.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Yeah your destiny is frequently outside of your control with this matchmaker.</p><p>I find I play in premades in 92 BGs since I have about an 80% chance that the healer I'm grouped with will be in my group when I zone in.</p><p>If I don't have friends online who want to BG, then I run my 83 SK, cause in the lower tier, I have complete control of my own destiny and running up against a group with 3 healers and I have none is by no means impossible.</p>

[Peak]

<p><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am pretty sure I've figured out where the bug is in the matchmaker. If there is a premade with a healer in it, the matchmaker will put all qued healers into that group/raid. I have noticed this because every single time I que with a healer we get more healers and the enemy gets 0 and when I que without a healer it is often that the enemy side gets all the healers and we got none. And in the last game that was 0 vs 6 healers Ganak, the enemy team had a premade with 2 haelers in it. So this is clearly not random, it is a pattern and it is a huge bug with the matchmaker.</p></blockquote><p>Explain that in terms of the screenshot I posted, which was a premade with a healer.</p>

[Dorsan]

Well the other theory would be that the matchmaker just puts random people into random groups... That is a possibility as well. If we examine gears with random numbers, these are the ods of healer distribution if the system is completely random: 4 heals vs 0 heals = 1 out of 8 games 3 heals vs 1 heals = 4 out of 8 games 2 heals vs 2 heals = 3 out of 8 games Now if you look at actual games, this seems pretty much how it is. However if you duo que with a healer then the random chances are like this: 3.33% chance for 4 vs 0 healers 30.00% chance for 3 vs 1 healers 50.00% chance for 2 vs 2 healers 16.67% chance for 1 vs 3 healers So this, would allow both cases to happen fairly often. But from my own experience, the chances to get all the healers into the raid which already has some premade are much much higher than 3.33% (which would be 1 out of 30 games vs premades). Either way the matchmaker is poorly done.

[Bjerde]

<p>I just did a Gears were there were 3 healers on one team and zero on the other.</p><p>People will stop playing BG's because of uneven odds like this. It is pretty obvious that BG's are a success right now, which is great, but this is going to muck it up if not fixed. It's not like the healers aren't there, they are; they just aren't distributed evenly and it is happening a lot.</p>

[tomsky]

<p>Bump. Any chance we can actually get this fixed sometime before 2034?</p><p><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/cheesyfishy/BGbalancing.png" width="720" height="669" /></p>

[Cynicisim]

<p>the problem would be a healer would get in every time he q'ed but a tank that you only need one of could potentially have a very long wait. Where DPS classes would have an average time depending on how many are Q'ed.</p><p>and if we allow people to pick DPS or Tank etc then we would get a lot of low dps tanks and a healer.</p><p>But if they fix healers in pvp (ie remove the last nerf) you might see more. I personally stopped playing my healer in BGs becuase you never get protection from the tank and are stuck chasing after a group unless you can Q up with a premade and that has it own problems.</p>

[anaugi]

<p>I still don't understand how you can go <span >by</span> the company line that the queue mechanism even remotely works towards <span >healer</span> includes and any semblance of balance.</p><p>The last 3 games in <span >gears</span> (with no <span >premades</span>), the team I was on had 0 healers, 1 <span >healers</span>, 0 healers.  The opposition,... <span >game</span> 1: <span >inq</span>, defiler, warden.  <span >game</span> 2: <span >inq</span>, <span >inq</span>, <span >templar</span>, game three: (the biggest lol).. <span >fury</span>, fury, <span >inq</span>, <span >templar</span>, mystic.   This kind of thing happens all the time!</p><p>Really?... I mean.. <span >really</span>?!</p><p>Granted I've been on teams with 2-3 healers and the other team with 0 or 1... <span >and</span> how is it even fun for them?  <span >about</span> as equally fun for me and my team when we are in that situation.</p><p>The biggest thing I hear in <span >group</span> these days at the start of the match is... "<span >great</span>, no healer", or "oh <span >look</span> 3 healers on <span >other</span> team".</p><p>I really like BGs.. <span >it's</span> a great way to break up the grind of the rest of eq2.. <span >but</span> you have a terrible, terrible, team composition engine.  It really, really needs work.</p><p>You're sucking the fun out of this game.</p><p>An.</p>

[gourdon]

<p>The first step is to enforce the 5 minute penalty to anyone that drops out of a BG.  That means disable /bat while you are in a battleground.  Then, just split the archtypes evenly between the teams.  This doesn't require a delay.  Just assign the next player of an archtype to the team with fewer of that archtype.  However, you do have to wait until they accept to place them on a team.  This isn't even tinker toys, much less rocket science.</p>

[Loldawg]

<p>this one was fun. 6 healers vs. 1, and the 1 was a 90 in a 92 match with 14k health. I outhealed him on my conjy.</p><p><img src="http://www.eq2flames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6629&d=1347163820" width="732" height="676" /></p>

[Davngr]

<p>cant we add some feature that lets you exchange players before the match starts?</p><p>  /offertotrade_player <yourteamsplayer> <otherteamsplayer></p><p>  have it pop up as a group invite/exchange deal..   sure it won't be 100% effective if a team is greedy but it would work at least 75% of the time imo</p>

[gourdon]

<p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>cant we add some feature that lets you exchange players before the match starts?</p><p>  /offertotrade_player</p><p>  have it pop up as a group invite/exchange deal..   sure it won't be 100% effective if a team is greedy but it would work at least 75% of the time imo</p></blockquote><p>Your suggestion wouldn't be easier to code than just adding a data structure to handle a master player list and moving the team building function to a point after verification of BG acceptance by the player.  Further, it wouldn't be nearly as effective at fixing the problem.  They just don't have the time to write code for BGs.  Hopefully, they will put this at the top of the list for the next time they give BGs serious attention.</p>

[Gealaen_Gaiamancer]

<p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  Hopefully, they will put this at the top of the list for the next time they give BGs serious attention.</p></blockquote><p>Bwahahahahaha!</p><p>Sorry, the evil laugh happens when EQ2 jaded is set to "high" for the day.  Hopefully later I'll get some BG time in, and will feel better after some senseless violence.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Davngr]

<p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>cant we add some feature that lets you exchange players before the match starts?</p><p>  /offertotrade_player</p><p>  have it pop up as a group invite/exchange deal..   sure it won't be 100% effective if a team is greedy but it would work at least 75% of the time imo</p></blockquote><p>Your suggestion wouldn't be easier to code than just adding a data structure to handle a master player list and moving the team building function to a point after verification of BG acceptance by the player.  Further, it wouldn't be nearly as effective at fixing the problem.  They just don't have the time to write code for BGs.  Hopefully, they will put this at the top of the list for the next time they give BGs serious attention.</p></blockquote><p>perhaps so but if they do re-write the code to build teams after the invites have been accepted it might bring other bugs to light.  giving the players the power to self regulate at the end of day fixes the problem no matter what happens as long as the players involved aren't dumb.</p><p>  i'm just arguing to argue btw :p</p><p> you're 100% in your logic  lol</p>

[gourdon]

<p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>cant we add some feature that lets you exchange players before the match starts?</p><p>  /offertotrade_player</p><p>  have it pop up as a group invite/exchange deal..   sure it won't be 100% effective if a team is greedy but it would work at least 75% of the time imo</p></blockquote><p>Your suggestion wouldn't be easier to code than just adding a data structure to handle a master player list and moving the team building function to a point after verification of BG acceptance by the player.  Further, it wouldn't be nearly as effective at fixing the problem.  They just don't have the time to write code for BGs.  Hopefully, they will put this at the top of the list for the next time they give BGs serious attention.</p></blockquote><p>perhaps so but if they do re-write the code to build teams after the invites have been accepted it might bring other bugs to light.  giving the players the power to self regulate at the end of day fixes the problem no matter what happens as long as the players involved aren't dumb.</p><p>  i'm just arguing to argue btw :p</p><p> you're 100% in your logic  lol</p></blockquote><p>Fair enough.  I'm just not so sure that a group transfer function would be easier to implement.  Both solutions would open the door to new bugs. I'm not convinced that my really simple solution would be harder to code than a trade function.  Of course, after getting a glimpse of the mess that their character data is through the data feeds, who knows what is easy or hard in that rats' nest they call EQ2.</p><p>I assume that they don't have to the manpower to assign to the new coding and the testing to fix the queue, which would likely be the same for a character trade function.  I also question whether had someone with a simple solution in mind, considering the embarrassment that their original algorithm is.  A lack of simple solutions could have put them off the task too.  Someone could have a really complex solution in mind that will take a long time to implement, so they do nothing when just moving the team distribution step to a later point in the sequence will fix 90% of the problem.  There is a fair chance that the perfect solution is the enemy of the good solution.</p><p>At this point I'm just writing because it is annoying that the original programmer of the algorithm probably thought he was writing efficient code.</p>