PVP in Game Update 64 [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Ashlanne

06-21-2012, 10:28 PM

With GU64 we are working hard to improve our PVP experience. Our goal is to make our PVP more accessible, more rewarding, and ultimately more fun! Stat Adjustments We are overhauling the way that stats work in PVP with this update. Instead of having completely separate stats for PVE and PVP combat, you will now derive your PVP stat values from your “normal” PVE stats. This allows us to keep PVE and PVP balanced completely separate from one another, and allows PVE-acquired gear to be of use in PVP combat. The reverse is also true – PVP gear will now be fully functional in PVE combat! <img src="http://www.everquest2.com/images/en/features/2012/06/gu64/potency.jpg" /> We focused on player skill being the biggest deciding factor in PVP combat, not gear. Gear will still give you an advantage, but it will be a more minor advantage than what we have seen in the past. This greatly increases the accessibility of PVP combat, but we have to ensure that PVP gear continues to be the go-to source of gear for PVP players. To make sure this is the case, we’ve done a few things. First, we have introduced a new PVP stat – Lethality. Lethality will increase all of the damage you deal in PVP combat. <img src="http://www.everquest2.com/images/en/features/2012/06/gu64/lethality.jpg" width="212" height="39" /> Toughness will still continue to reduce the damage you take in PVP combat. These two stats together on the new PVP gear will give a player in top PVP gear a slight advantage over a player in top PVE gear. Tokens and Gear With this update we will start awarding the same tokens from open world PVP combat and battleground combat. Open world PVP will reward tokens noticeably faster than battleground combat. <img src="http://www.everquest2.com/images/en/features/2012/06/gu64/havocmark.jpg" /> These tokens will be used to purchase all new PVP gear and consumables. The amount of tokens you can have at any given time will be capped. Additionally, if there are several sets of gear at different power levels within a tier, you will need to purchase the weaker gear and upgrade it with tokens into the stronger set of gear. This ensures that you never feel like you are “wasting” tokens by buying the weaker gear. Get the best gear you can get at the time, guilt free! Existing PVP gear will be removed from the PVP merchants to make way for the new gear – there’s a ton of it! If you have a hoard of old tokens, don’t worry - you will be able to use your old tokens to buy consumables that will aid you in PVP combat. New full sets of PVP gear have been added for every tier, starting at level 10. At 90-92, there are 3 sets of gear at different power levels. <img src="http://www.everquest2.com/images/en/features/2012/06/gu64/newpvparmor.png" width="400" /> Open World PVP Improvements Open world combat has been enhanced as well. The infamy system has been revamped. Instead of your enemies being worth a set amount of infamy every time they are slain, they are now worth a scaling amount that increases in value the longer they are alive. Higher ranked players will generate their bounty quicker than lower ranked players. The amount of infamy required for the lower and middle ranks of titles has been lowered, so it will be easier for more players to get deeper into the title system. The upper echelons of titles will still be reserved for the elite, as they require just as much dedication as before. The amount of HP of the towers in warfields have been increased to match how we have scaled up the gear has been scaled up. This should ensure that battles in warfields last a bit longer, as the rewards for successfully completing a warfield are now quite lucrative. Additionally, tokens now drop directly from kills instead of from writs! This should help you stay in the action instead of your UI. Writs can still be done for additional rewards. Battleground Enhancements Battlegrounds have been given a bit of a facelift. First and foremost, the Frozen Tundra map has been temporarily removed. It needs to be polished, and will return once we have finished our adjustments. Our other maps have seen a few tweaks: <ul> <li>Gears of Klak’Anon – now rewards more points for a kill, and more points for successfully killing the murderball holder.</li> <li>Battlefield of Ganak – The flag carrier now suffers a movement speed debuff. This debuff has an incoming damage buff which scales up the longer you hold the flag.</li> <li>Smuggler’s Den – The amount of time required to cap all of the towers has been adjusted. The value of the center tower has been increased. Ground mounts can now be used!</li> </ul> Win/Loss tokens are now awarded based on the time you spent in the match instead of a flat value that is always granted to you. The longer you are fighting, the bigger rewards you get! We have also added a bonus token system. If you achieve a heroic feat, such as killing 50 players without dying yourself, you will be granted additional token rewards! We have improved the scoreboard to display this new bonus token information. We also have some new voiceovers in the works! In order to help increase low-level battleground activity, we are making level 30-89 battlegrounds into one big “Level Agnostic” battleground cluster. This means you could see a level 30 and 89 in the same match, and our calculations behind the scenes will even the playing field as much as possible. You will still get a slight benefit from being higher level and having better gear, but the power spread will be evened out significantly. Class Balance PVP Class Balance has seen some adjustments. The biggest change so far has been to Crowd Control. Overall duration on CC effects has been lowered across the board by about half. While having meaningful CC is important to PVP combat, being able to actually play your character instead of being locked down throughout the match is equally important. In addition to this change, there have been tweaks to individual classes that will be outlined when we push this update to test server. As always, class balance is never complete without the input from our players. Be sure to log on test, beat each other up, and give us as much feedback as possible! ~ Omougi (a.k.a. Brian Ferguson, Associate Game Designer)

Roald

06-22-2012, 03:03 PM

These changes do look promising, and overall, I am sure most players on Nagafen will be excited about the increase in PvP these changes will bring.However, I must admit my heart sank a little when I read the paragraph about Class Balance. For many expansions now, enchanters have been borderline useless in solo PvP. Crowd Control was our class defining ability, and with the increasing number of CC immunity granting items, spells and AAs, half the spells in are arsenal are effectively rendered worthless in most situations. Not to mention, CC durations have already been nerfed VERY severely (30 second + mezzes down to 8 seconds). Crown Control is an important part of PvP in all MMOs, and a class that sacrifices so much in terms of survivability and dps to bring crown control should not be punished such.Now, hopefully in this large surge of PvP thought and development, this has already been considered, and the necessary enchancements are already being made to the enchanter subclass. Hopefully, infact, this change is correcting the fact that many dps and tank classes have considerably more useful CC in the form of knockbacks and long duration stuns/stifles than enchanters, and this balance initiative will be rectifying this.Lastly, thank you for finally bringing some news on these PvP changes. I do fear Nagafen and PvP in general has been neglected far beyond possible recovery, and most of the finest players I have seen quit over the last couple of years will not return, but it is better late than never.

Ssue

06-22-2012, 03:31 PM

Thank you for news! I am very excited to see these changes and will be on Test to help try them out.

TheSpin

06-22-2012, 03:40 PM

I could comment, but honestly I haven't played enough pvp recently for my comment to be really worth much. I will say this... I'm very happy PVP is getting attention. I love EQ2 and I love PVP, but I have hated PVP in EQ2. I would love for that to change.

Balrok

06-22-2012, 06:27 PM

<cite>Ashlanne wrote:</cite><blockquote>Class Balance PVP Class Balance has seen some adjustments. The biggest change so far has been to Crowd Control. Overall duration on CC effects has been lowered across the board by about half. While having meaningful CC is important to PVP combat, being able to actually play your character instead of being locked down throughout the match is equally important.In addition to this change, there have been tweaks to individual classes that will be outlined when we push this update to test server.As always, class balance is never complete without the input from our players. Be sure to log on test, beat each other up, and give us as much feedback as possible!~ Omougi (a.k.a. Brian Ferguson, Associate Game Designer)</blockquote>I'm onboard with everything you are adding/changing. There is alot that needs to be done, but this is a very good start.However, when I got to the end... I litterally woke up my sleeping dog next to me and said, "Are you kidding me! They think CC effects are on a high priority fix list?" It's like the very very last thing that needs additional nerfing. In all honestly, who complained about this? Even with the current short duration CC effects, there are a million ways to cure out of it or be immune to. Again... it's not currently an issue, as you already nerfed it out of being an enchanters class defining ability. If you scratched this CC change, you'll likely get 0 complains. Leave it and you'll get the 3 remaining PvP enchanters complains.A quick CC related question... do you consider Knockback a CC ability? You better and need to add an immunity timer to it just like everything else.On a final note.. I'm glad you're asking for our feedback on class balance. I'll be there next week to feed you this very important point. Autoattack needs addressing. Furry/MA/DPS/Attack Speed either needs to be capped or Autoattack damage needs to be lowered. It's the most obvious thing that has been brought up over and over and over again. The immediate reponse/flame is that casters get big hitting spells as well.... but there's a difference here. A caster has to stand there in a paper bag armor and "cast" a spell. "Casting" is dramtically different/harder then just targeting someone. Then that spell is down... for awhile. Autoattack is blowing people up as soon as you target them... and going off every second or two. Daze duration is pathetic and you can't stop it from being done. It's mindless.... scouts/fighters are just running after you dropping huge dmg and keeping you targeted... NOTHING else. Nerf caster DPS.. that's fine with me as long as you address autoattack. Move this damage into Combat Abilities like EQ2 was originally designed as. PvP combat was amazing before you introduced insane autoattack damage with RoK.In you web cast you said you wanted PvP to be about skill and not gear. If you really ment that, autoattack is something you need to focus on in PvP. It takes 0 skill. I already said this... but if you feel the damage is needed, move this damage into combat abilities. This would require someone to push different buttons in different order and spreads the damage out. Autoattack is an instant/insane damage splash. You also stated you wanted to increase the combat duration, this focus/change would be on point with your goals.Thanks for your time.Exur

Brigh

06-22-2012, 07:04 PM

I thought cc was already good enough being cut in half in the past ...already. What is the point if you can only root for 4 seconds (and someone can cure that root with a potion)?

Omougi

06-22-2012, 07:43 PM

<cite>Exur@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ashlanne wrote:</cite><blockquote>Class Balance PVP Class Balance has seen some adjustments. The biggest change so far has been to Crowd Control. Overall duration on CC effects has been lowered across the board by about half. While having meaningful CC is important to PVP combat, being able to actually play your character instead of being locked down throughout the match is equally important.In addition to this change, there have been tweaks to individual classes that will be outlined when we push this update to test server.As always, class balance is never complete without the input from our players. Be sure to log on test, beat each other up, and give us as much feedback as possible!~ Omougi (a.k.a. Brian Ferguson, Associate Game Designer)</blockquote>I'm onboard with everything you are adding/changing. There is alot that needs to be done, but this is a very good start.However, when I got to the end... I litterally woke up my sleeping dog next to me and said, "Are you kidding me! They think CC effects are on a high priority fix list?" It's like the very very last thing that needs additional nerfing. In all honestly, who complained about this? Even with the current short duration CC effects, there are a million ways to cure out of it or be immune to. Again... it's not currently an issue, as you already nerfed it out of being an enchanters class defining ability. If you scratched this CC change, you'll likely get 0 complains. Leave it and you'll get the 3 remaining PvP enchanters complains.A quick CC related question... do you consider Knockback a CC ability? You better and need to add an immunity timer to it just like everything else.On a final note.. I'm glad you're asking for our feedback on class balance. I'll be there next week to feed you this very important point. Autoattack needs addressing. Furry/MA/DPS/Attack Speed either needs to be capped or Autoattack damage needs to be lowered. It's the most obvious thing that has been brought up over and over and over again. The immediate reponse/flame is that casters get big hitting spells as well.... but there's a difference here. A caster has to stand there in a paper bag armor and "cast" a spell. "Casting" is dramtically different/harder then just targeting someone. Then that spell is down... for awhile. Autoattack is blowing people up as soon as you target them... and going off every second or two. Daze duration is pathetic and you can't stop it from being done. It's mindless.... scouts/fighters are just running after you dropping huge dmg and keeping you targeted... NOTHING else. Nerf caster DPS.. that's fine with me as long as you address autoattack. Move this damage into Combat Abilities like EQ2 was originally designed as. PvP combat was amazing before you introduced insane autoattack damage with RoK.In you web cast you said you wanted PvP to be about skill and not gear. If you really ment that, autoattack is something you need to focus on in PvP. It takes 0 skill. I already said this... but if you feel the damage is needed, move this damage into combat abilities. This would require someone to push different buttons in different order and spreads the damage out. Autoattack is an instant/insane damage splash. You also stated you wanted to increase the combat duration, this focus/change would be on point with your goals.Thanks for your time.Exur</blockquote>Hey,CC is definitely the class defining role of an enchanter. There's a fine balancing point that we want to hit where an enchanter can still do their lockdown role effectively without completely disabling someone elses ability to play the game. We'll need your feedback to see if we've hit this mark.We agree on autoattack damage, and we actually already have changes in to address it. You should see the changes on test next tuesday. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BrainCandy

06-22-2012, 07:49 PM

<cite>Ashlanne </cite><blockquote>PVP Class Balance has seen some adjustments. The biggest change so far has been to Crowd Control.Overall duration on CC effects has been lowered across the board by about half. While having meaningful CC is important to PVP combat, being able to actually play your character instead of being locked down throughout the match is equally important.In addition to this change, there have been tweaks to individual classes that will be outlined when we push this update to test server.As always, class balance is never complete without the input from our players. Be sure to log on test, beat each other up, and give us as much feedback as possible!~ Omougi(a.k.a. Brian Ferguson, Associate Game Designer)</blockquote>Seriously? You nerfed crowd control even more? Please tell me how a character was locked down throughtout a match when crowd control was already reduced to 8 seconds, can be cured, and once free have immunity? So you have now made enchanters completely pointless to play in PvP. Great change, it was needed. -BC

Dorsan

06-22-2012, 09:15 PM

I like everything announced here apart from the CC nerf. There is no reason to nerf CC at all.

Balrok

06-22-2012, 10:02 PM

<cite>Omougi wrote:</cite><blockquote>We agree on autoattack damage, and we actually already have changes in to address it. You should see the changes on test next tuesday. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Fantastic!! I'll see you on Tuesday. My story about CC's won't change though... leave CC's alone. No one thought this was an issue, as it was already nerfed enough.And I'll advise you disable all PvE gear related proc in PvP again.... Like you did with "almost" all the DoV items when you did the PvP update back then. I say "almost" cause you missed a few. If the procs have been PvP tested and you feel they apply in a PvP encounter, then leave them in. Otherwise out with them. A very important concept when you release new PvE items is to make sure you've at least considered PvP. Releasing all this new gear with an expansion and/or update and then adjust it/fix it for PvP" months" later is really to the point of unacceptable.Thanks for responding! ...it really showed me there's an interest in fixing PvP and got me excited. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Talathion

06-23-2012, 12:21 AM

But spells shouldn't also just double attack and instantly kill people like they did when BGs first started.Also, this game is balanced with Autoattack in Mind.

Luhai

06-23-2012, 05:39 AM

Most of the proposed changes looks really promising.How about the rewards, though? I've only read about PvP gear and PvP consumables so far. I doubt that this is enough to keep people on PvE servers interested in Battlegrounds for more than a month., assuming the most powerful PvP gear is nowhere near the level of the faction armor in Skyshrine.

Iren

06-23-2012, 08:02 AM

happy that pvp is getting some love, but for the love of god please dont boost damage on players, fights hardly last a second as it is

Occisor

06-23-2012, 09:27 AM

Hi there, things look good, I hope you are considering: <ul><li>The only CC that needs looking into are knockbacks and taunt/detarget combinations (a player forced to no target and unable to target anything). With all classes being able to considerably buff or cap REUSE, knockbacks can occur at an alarming rate. On the other hand, enchanters really need some love, in particular coercers who don't have the amazing group buffs that make people love to PvP with illusionists.</li></ul><div></div><div><ul><li>Resists are still broken. Casters can struggle to land spells on a target while having half their health taken in one round of auto attacks, which are also broken.</li></ul></div>

EQ2Playa432

06-24-2012, 06:53 PM

Many people including myself felt pvp's gold days was during KoS / EoF. Although scouts usually had an advantagesolo, the more players there were in the fight they lost power. Priests were hard to kill but could not deal much damage. Fighters held their own, and mages either nuked you down quickly or died. Of course ocne you break down the classes it is more complicated but that system had a working balance. The more we revert towards this balance the better.Dock and safe zone permanent immunity - get rid of this. Immunity was added in to help those who load zones slower. That's all that is needed, temporary immunity. It makes no sense that Qeynos is dangerous but you can AFK all day in EL.Runspeed - totally out of control these past few years. While it is nice on PvE servers, it completely destroys the World PvP as anyone can run away, because once you get into combat, you will never catch them. I understand you don't want to take away the choice to buy mounts on the SC store for PvP servers. Fine. But if you are attacked, you should not be able to leap or fly away. Run away, fine, but at a reduced speed. Something that gives the chaser a chance to catch up if they know what they are doing.

06-24-2012, 11:47 PM

great to see these very promising pvp changes.i also pvped (mostly grp pvp) a lot as an enchanter (coercer and illusionists) and healer (warden and inquis). on my healer a good enchanter was always one of my most hated classes to be in enemy grp (and i specced/geared for cc immu). i know both of you milambers and exur (played with and against you)... you are pro pvpers and know your classes, so i value your feedback. but speaking from a grp pvpers perspective i do not think that halfing the cc duration will hurt us enchanters that much. from my experience it was the extreme amount of cc-breaking/cc-immu skills/aas/items etc. that really hurt us... add to that the op anti(-grp-)cc item -> aoe-immu cloak. if i knew my aoe stifle/stun/mezz would actually connect and last its duration then i would surely not mind if the duration would be halved.well whatever happens, omougis changes and intentions sound like he knows what he is doing. so thanks for listening and even answering.conclusion: 1 more returning customer here. hope to see the competition heat up again (replaced, onyx, fishermen, defile etc.).

Omougi

06-25-2012, 06:11 AM

<cite>Occisor wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><ul><li>Resists are still broken. Casters can struggle to land spells on a target while having half their health taken in one round of auto attacks, which are also broken.</li></ul></div></blockquote>We've tweaked how resists work in PVP combat. Constant resists on spells has been addressed, which was a big part of the CC duration reduction. In our internal playtests, shorter duration, more reliable CC led to a funner play experience all around. Viability of enchanters is definitely something we are keeping an eye on. PVP class balance in general will be seeing tweaks as we get feedback from you all once this hits test this week. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ceolus

06-25-2012, 07:00 AM

I think the problem with chanter CCs isn't so much resists as it is procced/ability immunities and cure clickies. There are a few items with CC immunity procs (namely stun/stifle) that can be kept up at all times pretty reliably, nullifying those CCs entirely. As a chanter, I imagine that casting something that you know will take effect is important to feeling like you have a meaningful strategic role/some control over the situation, rather than just casting and hoping that someone won't be immune at that moment.Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread and replying to us, Omougi. Nagafen is getting excited about this new attention!

BrainCandy

06-26-2012, 02:52 PM

<cite>Omougi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Occisor wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><ul><li>Resists are still broken. Casters can struggle to land spells on a target while having half their health taken in one round of auto attacks, which are also broken.</li></ul></div></blockquote>We've tweaked how resists work in PVP combat. Constant resists on spells has been addressed, which was a big part of the CC duration reduction. In our internal playtests, shorter duration, more reliable CC led to a funner play experience all around. Viability of enchanters is definitely something we are keeping an eye on. PVP class balance in general will be seeing tweaks as we get feedback from you all once this hits test this week. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I appreciate being left with the CC equivalent of a tank with knockbacks. The CC usefulness of enchanters has been reduced to negligible in PVE thanks to most mobs that matter being immume, now we are further reduced in PvP - AGAIN. Have you even thought about how this would effect 1vs1 fights? CC is all enchanters have, we have no other defense whatsoever. So now combined with all the cures and immunities, they are cut in half to *4* seconds when you do actually land something. What is the point? Noone concerned with PvP even asked for this, yet you do a little "internal play testing" and say it was more fun play experience. For who? Everyone but the useless feeling enchanters maybe. -BC

Hekter

06-26-2012, 09:35 PM

PvP Crit mit Adorns (Foucs: Critical Mitigation (PvP) are missing on the Bg Adornment merchant replaced with Rune: Resilence i guess..but they are still on old armor pieces giving pvp cm.Change Chaos and buffs like this that gave Crit Mit before and now %HP so they give PvP Crit mit again.

Balrok

06-27-2012, 12:11 PM

<cite>Ashlanne wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest change so far has been to Crowd Control.Overall duration on CC effects has been lowered across the board by about half. While having meaningful CC is important to PVP combat, being able to actually play your character instead of being locked down throughout the match is equally important.</blockquote>** posted on tester feedback thread as well **<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=519588" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=519588</a>** please advise what thread/method is best for providing pvp change feedback **I'm honestly OK with the duration of control effects in PvP being lowered IF you can confirm items with CC immunity procs are being disabled in PvP. This will actually make CC's viable in PvP, even with the continued drop in durations. I'm assuming you are testing with gear that doesn't proc CC immunities or thinking no one uses them. The majority of "skilled" PvPers do wear these items, such as:Chilled Hoops of Malicious ThoughtsMalicious Thoughts: Makes caster immune to Root, Stun, Stifle, Fear, Daze and Mesmerize effects.aITEM 482888549 1636056026:[Chilled Hoops of Malicious Thoughts]/aExquisitely Formed Karborite BraceletDeep Cogency: Makes caster immune to Root, Stun, Stifle, Fear, Daze and Mesmerize effects.aITEM -1478399271 -405996073:[Exquisitely Formed Karborite Bracelet]/aCuff of Crystalline DominionCrystalline Dominion: Makes caster immune to Root, Stun, Stifle, Fear, Daze and Mesmerize effects.aITEM -1827891699 399505535:Cuff of Crystalline Dominion/aVelium Dominion (Rune)Makes caster immune to Root, Stun, Stifle, Fear, Daze and Mesmerize effects.*works in PvPRing of EmptinessEmpty Soul: Makes target immune to Mesmerize and Stun effectsaITEM -1316094568 2066842791:Ring of Emptiness/aDisable "Unflinching Defiance" and "Hopeful Resolve" in PvP combat as well.<ul><li>Unflinching Defiance: Makes caster immune to Stun effects</li><li>Hopeful Resolve: Makes caster immune to Stifle Effects</li></ul>Discord's Battle Medic ChokerLinked Brellium Ruby BraceleGirdle of AereonMaster's Purple Sapphire EarringHoop of HopArchaic Runed Cuffs of Unknown PowerHoop of the InterpreterBaleful Caller's Cuffs of Unknown PowerAnd since we're add it, please look into disabling AOE Immunity items like these:Frosttide SnowcloakFrigid Deflection: Prevents AOE (except when direct)aITEM -1527517428 1716622824:[Frosttide Snowcloak]/aMelding Gemmed BarrierSustenance: Prevents AOE (except when direct)aITEM 501159679 -129507760:Melding Gemmed Barrier/aGlacial Deflection (Rune): Prevents AOE (except when direct)*works in PvPaITEM 157400549 223483954:Glacial Deflection/a... few more on the PvP merchant I can't seem to find atm.The removal of Stun on Knockback was excellent btw!