class rebalancing coming soon!!!

[PeterJohn]

<p>I am very excited to hear that GU64 is being planned for July? I remember a certain developer posting that class balancing issues for templars (and some other classes) was going to be looked at "after GU63 but before GU64"...</p><p>So I assume that this is being looked at now? Are templars finally going to get the second group cure?</p>

[Meatwaggon]

<p>I do believe SOE devs have let themselves believe they've fixed templars with prestige abilities.  GU64 is a month away and no hide nor hair of any word of any changes of any kind to the templar class.  What do you think is the likely outcome of this ludicrosity?</p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>If the devs don't think it's broke, they won't fix it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     And for some reason they think everything is just peachy.</p>

[Meatwaggon]

<p>Templars don't need more raw healing power.  They have pretty much never needed more healing power.  This has never been their problem.  But this is pretty much what they got with GU63.  Instead, they should have just given templars a second group cure, turned that idiotically useless Manacure into a legitimate, no-nonsense, no-strings-attached, straight up second group cure and gotten it over with ffs.  I wouldn't have cared if I had to dump 10AA into it to get it.  This is the key to templar desirability in all content post-DOV where life and death is not on a razor-thin margin.  But for whatever reason the devs chose to ignore a chorus of complaints from templars that spanned dozens of pages with contributions from many different templars doing both group and raid content spanning pretty much the entire range of difficulty.  If this is not a definitive response from the templar community, I don't know what is.</p>

[Meatwaggon]

<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am very excited to hear that GU64 is being planned for July? I remember a certain developer posting that class balancing issues for templars (and some other classes) was going to be looked at "after GU63 but before GU64"...</p><p>So I assume that this is being looked at now? Are templars finally going to get the second group cure?</p></blockquote><p>This just in: GU64 going on test next week.  So your quote is now confirmed as something-other-than-the-truth.  There is also no mention of templar fixes within GU64 itself.  Any last holdouts in this class still?  Time to betray to inq, or stop playing your templar altogether.</p>

[PeterJohn]

<p>You must be mistaken. Developers said they would look at templar (and other class) balance issues after GU63 but before GU64. This must mean that the templar changes will be occurring on test before the week is even over!!!!</p><p>Either that, or the developers just don't understand how outdated the concept of having 1 group cure really is and how it is STILL killing the templar class.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p>I'll hold off until I see the actual test update notes and tbh if they omit aka ignore any changes repeatedly requested by the templar community again I may be done with the game....I will not betray to inquis or play my alt for raids.</p><p><strong><span style="font-size: medium;">FIX THE DAMM CLASS OR REMOVE THEM !</span></strong></p>

[PeterJohn]

<p>I think that the developers are reluctant to give up this <strong>OUTDATED GAME MECHANIC</strong> that is healers with only 1 group cure. They fail to understand how penalized templars are due to not having the second group, both in heroic and in raid zones. And they continue to release content that is "intensive cure or die" while failing to realize the impact this has on the desirability of templars.</p>

[sorie67]

<p>Sorry but GU64 on test server is only for Fighters class rebalance only and no other class.  I wish it was true they would look into the healing class as well.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Yeah, I'm afraid templars didn't make GU64.</p><p>Maybe 65?</p>

[Meatwaggon]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm afraid templars didn't make GU64.</p><p>Maybe 65?</p></blockquote><p>What happened to "after GU63 but before GU64"?  I'll tell you what happened.  The devs talked to some high end templar who told them he likes his class just fine, and they decided to ignore pretty much every other templar that has been posting in the official forums saying otherwise.  When you have sheer and utter cluelessness on this kind of level, it's just not worth arguing about anymore.  The reason templars didn't make GU63 or GU64 is because THEY DON'T THINK ANYTHING IS WRONG WITH TEMPLARS.  There have now been over 2 dozen pages of threads filled with templars saying something is wrong, so what else is there left to say?  Nothing.  But it's now pretty obvious that this was all a wasted effort.  Let the templar class rot at this point.  Why continue to let yourselves be frustrated by persistent and unrepentant cluelessness and broken promises?  This is a game, and ineptitude will eventually reflect itself in less and less subscriptions.  Let the market forces work itself out.  Personally, I'm done with templars, and if your'e smart, you will be too.</p>

[Dahmer]

<p>Very disapointing when a dev says that they are going to adjust the class, just to see it not happen.</p><p>I'm sure it's not any templar saying that they are "fine" ~ there are only a handful of templars still around and everyone knows what the current state of the class is.</p><p>Maybe they couldn't make the time to adjust things...who knows.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p>I'm fuming at this point yet another broken promise, Templars aside we are not the only class that has exisiting issues that needed fixing and were patiently waiting for this update ours is just the most ignored.  The end result of this is quite frankly the class is dying a fast death unless they are willing to betray/reroll inquis.</p>

[Dahmer]

<p>Think your better bet is to reroll as a Warden if you want to maintain your mt spot.</p>

[Jesebell]

<p>I am very disappointed and quite frankly a little P.O.ed that SoE IGNORED us once AGAIN when they gave us hope. It would have been better if you hadn't said ANYTHING to us because at least we wouldn't have held out some hope for change.</p><p>I think the biggest reason I am disappointed is because I have been watching the Templar threads and there have been some GOOD suggestions besides asking for a second group cure. For example, that Sanctuary thread brought up some good points and ideas of how to make the skill more useful as it isn't horribly useful with the current content. We have thrown out so many ideas and all we heard was that they were going to "look into" the class for the GU and they didn't. Instead of even attempting some minor tweaks to Templars we got a tank overhaul and a "Reckless" stance for all tanks. Really?</p><p>WE HAVE GIVEN YOU FEEDBACK ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING?! Because if you are, it sure doesn't seem like it. Many Templar skills are OUTDATED with the new mechanics that YOU have put into play and nothing has been done to try and remedy that.</p><p>The only reason I even keep my Templar geared anymore is for the off chance that my raid leader decides to swap out one of our Inquisitors for a fight (I am my guild's ONLY raid geared Templar, it's not my main, and we are in HM Drunder and HM Skyshrine). So far I haven't seen it happen and have only gotten a spot in raid when an Inquisitor doesn't show up so we need another cleric.</p>

[PeterJohn]

<p>There must be some mistake. I cannot reasonably assume that SOE is choosing to completly ignore all of the templar posts made in the past several months. GU64 is now on test, and we were told that templars would be looked at prior to GU64.</p><p>I noticed there are some test notes regarding PVP templar changes. I hope that SOE does not think that all the problems templars are having is limited only to PVP.</p>

[Dahmer]

<p>No, i doubt what he was refering to was a pvp fix. </p><p>We were ignored.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p>I read the pvp updates for templars and they for the most part were a nerf...reducing sanctuary to 15 sec max are you kidding me...and not one peep about unnerfing healer cures in pvp...only shows that have even less a clue about open world pvp changes than they do about the state of the class in pve...</p>

[Dahmer]

<p>Sanctuary took a massive hit in pvp which is stupid considering no AOE blockers are being reduced in duration..They also nerfed Divine Guidance AGAIN, because clearly the 1st nerf two years ago was not enough.../sigh</p><p>Edit~ Also to add the fact our reactives don't trigger off ma, flurry..Has me a bit concered...I tried queing up for test BG's yesterday and waited a good 30 minutes without a match, so i am wondering if it's going to be possiable to even heal through the damage output.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Dahmer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sanctuary took a massive hit in pvp which is stupid considering no AOE blockers are being reduced in duration..They also nerfed Divine Guidance AGAIN, because clearly the 1st nerf two years ago was not enough.../sigh</p><p>Edit~ Also to add the fact our reactives don't trigger off ma, flurry..Has me a bit concered...I tried queing up for test BG's yesterday and waited a good 30 minutes without a match, so i am wondering if it's going to be possiable to even heal through the damage output.</p></blockquote><p>7 years on pvp servers and countless fights tell me little to no hope with the current changes</p>

[PeterJohn]

<p>Well at least we know that the devs are aware of the issues. So if no changes occur with templars, that simply means that the devs do not think that templars really are a broken class and are fine the way they are.</p><p>And since devs will not reply to issues directly on the boards (for understandable reasons) I guess I'll just have to wait until October's Fan Faire to ask Xelgad what his thoughts are regarding templars and their current status.</p>

[Meatwaggon]

<p>For devs' "thoughts" on templars, just ask slippery and crew.  We don't have their ear, that much is blatantly obvious by now.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Meatwaggon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For devs' "thoughts" on templars, just ask slippery and crew.  We don't have their ear, that much is blatantly obvious by now.</p></blockquote><p>I have noticed it looks like the devs are listening to the same vocal minority on the forums for pvp changes that they did when the same ones suggested gear seperation...so I'm not amazed that the general community is being ignored and the "enlightened ones" are being listened too.</p><p>As for asking Xelgad and other devs at fan faire Peter....last several fan faire the devs were cornered point blank about the state of our class the most famous response people got then still applies to how clueless the devs are to high end raiding and grouping...they asked a raid leader from a top ww guild for confirmation that templars are in high demand in zones like pow and hm drunder...the raid leader said, "we dont use templars in raid we use inquisitors"....I can name the 5 raiding templars on my server and 3 are currently in my guild.</p>

[Ymarik]

<p><cite>Daalilama@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for asking Xelgad and other devs at fan faire Peter....last several fan faire the devs were cornered point blank about the state of our class the most famous response people got then still applies to how clueless the devs are to high end raiding and grouping...they asked a raid leader from a top ww guild for confirmation that templars are in high demand in zones like pow and hm drunder...the raid leader said, "we dont use templars in raid we use inquisitors"....I can name the 5 raiding templars on my server and 3 are currently in my guild.</p></blockquote><p>It was Xelgad that we managed to pull aside and chat.  that was me who cornered him, and our main tank templar was with me. Don't know who the other two guys were, but he called them in or they joined in the conversation on their own.</p><p>Of course, the situation is even worse now than it was before.</p><p>Ymarik</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Ymarik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Daalilama@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for asking Xelgad and other devs at fan faire Peter....last several fan faire the devs were cornered point blank about the state of our class the most famous response people got then still applies to how clueless the devs are to high end raiding and grouping...they asked a raid leader from a top ww guild for confirmation that templars are in high demand in zones like pow and hm drunder...the raid leader said, "we dont use templars in raid we use inquisitors"....I can name the 5 raiding templars on my server and 3 are currently in my guild.</p></blockquote><p>It was Xelgad that we managed to pull aside and chat.  that was me who cornered him, and our main tank templar was with me. Don't know who the other two guys were, but he called them in or they joined in the conversation on their own.</p><p>Of course, the situation is even worse now than it was before.</p><p>Ymarik</p></blockquote><p>My guess they were members of the devs "choosen few"...</p>

[SpineDoc]

<p>It's funny but there is this pervading MYTH that only complainers post on MMO forums, all the happy people are happily playing and have no need to post anything.  From my experience the forums do directly reflect the state of the players and how they are feeling.  Look at games like Tera and TSW where the devs post regularly, directly reply to players, etc., their front pages are mostly players looking for optimal builds, asking questions, voicing concerns along with constructive criticism, etc.  When you get poor games like SWTOR and EQ2 you can tell by looking at their forums. </p><p>I have a feeling that the devs are specifically told by management not to respond to threads, or at least I'd like to think that rather than thinking of them as lacking courage.  If there is any thought process at SOE that devs responding to player concerns on the forums is bad business I can only point them to other MMO's where the devs do exactly that, and the playerbase completely thrives on it.  When you have something rotten you need to address it right away before it spreads and eats up your foundation.</p><p>Ok, what the heck am I still doing  here?  My year sub is still in effect, but I don't log on anymore.  It's just hard to let go of something that I spent the better part of 8 years building up and I'll always have an interest in what happens here even if I don't play.  Who knows, maybe there will be another shake up in management and the game will become interesting once again.  But as it stands today EVERYTHING is cookie cutter, they have successfully automated just about every process from making gear to stats to the classes themselves.  In their quest to cookie cutter the healers for some odd reason they left us Templars out.</p><p>Well let me get back to leveling my Assault Rifle/Blades build character in Transylvania in TSW...</p>

[Epiph]

<p>Been thinking about this for some time and I know that some people are going to inevitably argue that we are needed when it comes to end game (and I would be one of them) due to the mobs taking a dump on tanks which is partially what we are meant to be good at preventing and reacting to. The move back towards the older style of raids where that kind of mitigation and skillset was needed is a good one imo but the largest problem remains that guilds have been stuck in the mindset of not needing a templar for so long that it's become a prejudice we have to overcome.</p><p>The lack of the second group cure hurts us horrendously in practice irrespective of what anyone would say. I have seen it said too many times by too many people in so many different contexts that they prefer the inquisitor for two main reasons: two cures and group dps increase. If an inquisitor isn't available they'll sub in a warden instead because of the same reasons.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Naysayers can shake their heads all they like in theory but the actual practice of the above is very clear when you start to delve down into the guilds who are raiding and look at their setups. We're simply not needed until a very late and small proportion of the game; and even then I believe a couple of end game guilds will argue we're still not desirable.</span></p><p>There is a huge irony here. Take a look at our mythical cloak! Probably the best class cloak they created and chances are that very few templars will ever be present to either loot it or be allowed to loot it because they're not needed. This also raises a question: why did you feel the need to place that on our mythical cloak? Perhaps someone realised that that could be a huge boost to the viability of our class. Considering the raiding content is over by the time you get that until the next release it's a wash.</p><p>So what to do? Well firstly, really obvious point but simply fix our broken spells. We shouldn't have to be requesting a fix for multiple broken spells. Blessings et al need to be corrected and work according to the way that they are meant to work.</p><p>Secondly: there has been a definite move towards making the templar a 'raid' proc healer with us now having 3 raid heals. I would propose that if you genuinely aren't interested in giving us a second group heal you increase the proc chance of manacure significantly and allow it to proc raid wide with it also working for a trauma on combat arts OR you make a fixed version of blessings raid wide to combat the argument that we a) don't do enough or any dps and b) we don't buff dps for our groups. The second option is more desirable.</p><p>Thirdly: reactives should you know... react. This bizarre arfticial intelligence of them currently where they go yep okay I'll react to the first sword swing but woooah hey now not the seond third or tenth of a MA or flurry hit is frankly odd.</p><p>Alternatively, give us something that is important for the whole raid that we don't have currently. Some form of 'aura' that we can switch around would be an interesting addition. Heck at this point I would take an anti memwipe 'aura' that protects a raid from the constant crazy mobs running around regardless of what a tank does (and that should say a lot about the current state of templars to be perfectly honest). I know they won't do this but stuff like a ressurection aura where anyone being rezzed whilst it's up doesn't get rez sickness or a protection aura that would help to negate a percentage of damage raid wide or how about a debuff aura that would increase debuff effectiveness. Just something guys come on.</p><p>Healing isn't our problem, we can do big numbers and compete in that sense. We're just screwed on usefullness when everyone can now do big numbers and they bring more apparent usefullness to the table. Templars have always been a niche class with generally speaking one raid spot available. So doing the above wouldn't change that fact if only one aura was allowed raid wide at a time for anyone who would argue oh lulz 4 templars in raid.</p><p>We're on the bench coach, put us back in!</p><p>( sorry for the walltext! had to get this stuff off my chest <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p>

[Daalilama]

<p>The problem is they have ignored repeatedly problems the templar community has brought up to them...the class isnt totally broken but its darn close.  Given that our initial templar endlines (blessings, mana cure, overconfidence, smite wrath) are completely broken or useless (blessings still works on older procs but skyshrine/HM drunder revamp procs are a no go) this needs to be addressed now not in 2 years.   As for another group cure....I would prefer they just revamp the overconfidence aa ability and make it for drasticly droping the base reuse of our single group cure (there is precident for this already as in our curse cure aa line and would not create probs by granting us another group cure)</p><p>Sanctuary should have immunities for memwipes/no beneficial spells/charm added to them...and yes I agree mana cure needs a real proc rate not .3% (not sure of its real rate but I'd be amazed if it was higher).  Smite Wrath should have its damage immunity removed not only is it an outdated mechanic with the state of the game its really dumb considering the boost to our damage is not going to make or break us. </p>

[Juravael]

<p>I definately do not have a solution but I can say that I have all but retired my 92 Templar. He's been my main healer now for a few years and he is fairly well geared in a mix of legendary and fabled gear, fully mastered, 320 AA and he struggles like mad trying to keep a group in Skyshrine (contested and instanced) cured and healed.</p><p>This week I dusted off my 90 Warden and spent a few days getting him to 92 and aquiring some decent gear though he is not close to being as well geared as my Templar and I can solo heal contested and all of CD no problem. He never runs low on mana and has plenty of cure abilities, not to mention having two group cures on a 10 second recast. He is not fully mastered either but I'm going to be focusing on him much more going forward.</p>

[Epiph]

<p>No offense meant but you should have np solo healing contested or normal skyshrine (even challenge is fine up to a point) with a templar. That's not the current problem with the class. If you were struggling with that then it's possible something else was wrong.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Glenedhel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I definately do not have a solution but I can say that I have all but retired my 92 Templar. He's been my main healer now for a few years and he is fairly well geared in a mix of legendary and fabled gear, fully mastered, 320 AA and he struggles like mad trying to keep a group in Skyshrine (contested and instanced) cured and healed.</p><p>This week I dusted off my 90 Warden and spent a few days getting him to 92 and aquiring some decent gear though he is not close to being as well geared as my Templar and I can solo heal contested and all of CD no problem. He never runs low on mana and has plenty of cure abilities, not to mention having two group cures on a 10 second recast. He is not fully mastered either but I'm going to be focusing on him much more going forward.</p></blockquote><p>TBH aside from certain named annoying abilities you really should have any major probs solo healing on a temp contested or grp zones.</p>

[Juravael]

<p>The actual healing is fine. It is the curing and the fact that he constantly runs out of mana during most fights. Our "groups" consist of a Paladin, Templar and Dirge since that is about all that we can get to gear up and be ready for end-game content in our smaller guild unfortunately.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Glenedhel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The actual healing is fine. It is the curing and the fact that he constantly runs out of mana during most fights. Our "groups" consist of a Paladin, Templar and Dirge since that is about all that we can get to gear up and be ready for end-game content in our smaller guild unfortunately.</p></blockquote><p>tinkered mana stones, the old manastone hq item, mc clarity pots ohh and cleric ae prevent macro'd to yourself...did I miss anything?</p>

[Epiph]

<p><cite>Meatwaggon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>[Removed post.]</p></blockquote><p>I seriously wonder at this point. It would be one thing to totally ignore us, however the glimmer of hope we got with the assertion that they would take a look at us again before GU64 and which was then reneged upon, seems to suggest that they think one class being broken is okay for the moment. </p><p>(For anyone who wants to pounce on the word broken, don't bother. I'm referring to the spells not working as intended which no other class has such a plethora of.)</p><p>Most of us are pretty helpful and constructive people and are happy to work with you to make this class once again viable for raiding. A large number of the people I see posting on this forum have stuck it out for a very long time on this class, as have I, because we cling to the hope that you'll eventually see how badly unbalanced our class has become. I haven't seen anyone ask for ridiculously game breaking additions to the class or untenable fixes.</p><p>It would be really nice for the developers to give us a response one way or the other. If you intend to really take a look at our class then please say so and give us a realistic timeframe. If not, please just state that and we can all go reroll inquisitor or quit the game. Having unhappy customers isn't a good thing for either side of the equation that's business 101.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p>They have simply become tone deaf to the community unless its fluff...SOEmote/DF/DM(which what 5% of the player base will even use)...this class has been intentionally lied to as Xelgad did...and tbh I'll prob not buy the "new" xpac their touting for november which will probably half finished and pushed out broke. </p>

[Epiph]

<p>I asked no less than five times politely during last weeks dev 'tweetchat' if they had rescheduled their review of templars.</p><p>They gave no response and decided to concentrate on such burning issues as lore, whether we can play as dragons one day and station cash rich issues.</p><p>Thank you for showing us you really could care less at this point at addressing a valid point and concern. We weren't the ones who made the point of saying that the class would be reviewed "between gu63 and gu64"; that was a statement that Xelgad made so it would be nice if any dev at this point could at least read this and find out what is going on.</p>

[PeterJohn]

<p>They appear to have reviewed the class balance issues now. Can't wait to test out the changes in beta!</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They appear to have reviewed the class balance issues now. Can't wait to test out the changes in beta!</p></blockquote><p>We thought that during the skyshrine prestige feedback at test...it was like pulling teeth to get half the changes in....</p>