Do bards and chanters need to be nerfed? [Archive]

Koleg

05-25-2012, 01:21 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are utlity, that's why everyone wants them not because they are OP.There's not enough of them because some are boring to play.Sure go ahead and nerf them and see what it feels like when there's none left. Look up and see what utility does for a group / raid before you post stupid things.</blockquote>*Please do not quote forum violations*</blockquote>*please do not insult others* It clearly shows you've missed the nature of the class mechanic and how class mechanic interact. Why should a group wait around for a Tank or a Healer or a Utility or a DPS.... the answer is that the game mechanic of Tank/Heal/Utility/DPS/DPS/DPS has ALWAYS been the model. EQx has always used the trinity of T+H+U, always.People stand around crying for Bards/Chanters to join their groups for a few reasons and I assure you those are all selfish reasons. Utility makes things 'Easier' not 'Doable'. All the content is fully doable w/o Bards or Chanter, the issue is nobody want to work that hard if they don't have to. Group wait around for Bards or Chanters becasue those classes have been nerfed, they are less fun to play and they have very low recognition from the players surrounding them. There are few people that 'enjoy' playing utility becasue they can not parse high or survive long or protect anyone. They just make other people better at what those other people do and it's the other people thta get the glory generated by the utility class. That is why there are fewer of them now and will be fewer of them later.

Rageincarnate

05-25-2012, 01:22 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does it seem odd to you that just about every raid guild aims for 4 bards and 4 chanters in each raid? Thats 8 slots filled by 2 subclasses. Also, remember the days when just finding a tank and healer were the hardest parts of putting together a heroic group? Now you see people spamming the chat for hours looking for "bard and/or chanter to fill group".Its hard enough filling groups in an unpopular, low population game. Why make it even harder?</blockquote>So you want to run groups without support. It's called a beastlord.

DamselInDistress

05-25-2012, 01:48 PM

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 02:16 PM

<cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are utlity, that's why everyone wants them not because they are OP.There's not enough of them because some are boring to play.Sure go ahead and nerf them and see what it feels like when there's none left. Look up and see what utility does for a group / raid before you post stupid things.</blockquote>*Please do not quote forum violations*</blockquote>I have to admit I am confused. Your reply and your thread shows such a lack of understanding of the game that any point is lost on you. I am gld you feel you won something, but the reality is a bit different ...</blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.

Ahlana

05-25-2012, 02:26 PM

nm not worth it, there is obviously a fundamental detriment in the OPs logic.

Mermut

05-25-2012, 02:29 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are utlity, that's why everyone wants them not because they are OP.There's not enough of them because some are boring to play.Sure go ahead and nerf them and see what it feels like when there's none left. Look up and see what utility does for a group / raid before you post stupid things.</blockquote>*Please do not quote forum violations*</blockquote>I have to admit I am confused. Your reply and your thread shows such a lack of understanding of the game that any point is lost on you. I am gld you feel you won something, but the reality is a bit different ...</blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.

Ahlana

05-25-2012, 02:31 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Yeah his logic is beyond fail

Terrius

05-25-2012, 02:37 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Yeah his logic is beyond fail</blockquote>Omg everyone wants a tank aswell! Those guys need hardcore nerfing, they're overpowered!But seriously, did someone just claim bards and chanters are OPed with a straight face?If they were OP then there would be a ton of them all over the place. The fact is the opposite, they are so underpowered and boring that nobody wants to be forced to play one. The fact you need 8 in a raid confirms that they are Underpowered not Overpowered.

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 02:48 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are utlity, that's why everyone wants them not because they are OP.There's not enough of them because some are boring to play.Sure go ahead and nerf them and see what it feels like when there's none left. Look up and see what utility does for a group / raid before you post stupid things.</blockquote>HAHAAHAH you talking about people posting stupid things. HAHAHAHA, omg the irony. Furthermore, you proved my point exactly. You just admitted that utility boosts your group/raid to the point that you NEED so many of them. Do you proof read anything you type? Thank you for driving my point home though, even though you had to self own yourself YET AGAIN!</blockquote>I have to admit I am confused. Your reply and your thread shows such a lack of understanding of the game that any point is lost on you. I am gld you feel you won something, but the reality is a bit different ...</blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy.Anyways, I suppose some of you think its ok that every single guild is constantly recruiting for bards/chanters because raids require a group and half of them. Not every guild is looking for healers, but every guild is always looking for more bards/chanters. Wait a minute, thats not even true. They only want one trouby and one coercer. So that means there are 6 slots reserved for two specific classes, dirges and illusionists. That seem right to anybody?This game does not have enough players to warrant two classes that nobody wants to play in each group. You cannot disagree with that and not have a handicap sign hanging from your moms minivan for you.

Ahlana

05-25-2012, 02:54 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy</blockquote>So you are saying that in the good old days tanks and healers were OPed, because everyone was looking for them.And now a days since everyone is looking for Bards/Chanters, they are the ones OPed?I mean you can not say one with out the other. If demand is what equals OP, then it must apply across the table.People want the classes because their buffs are not raid wide, so in order to get said buffs you want one for each group. Make the buffs raid wide and your silly problem is gone.

Koleg

05-25-2012, 03:01 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>I think the problem is that you don't know what the definition of Over Powered is or you are at the very least using it in the wrong context. Bards and Encahnters are far from Over Powered, although they are highly desired or could be considered Over Desired. OP classes such as Inquisitors, Shadowknights, Monks or Beastlords are all FOtM classes (Flavor of the Month). People flock to those classes in droves for the pure and simple reason they are over powered. You can't swing a dead cat w/o hitting a SK/Inq/Monk and that dead cat might actually hit 3 or 4 Beastlords when you swing it. They are all FOV classes.SOE has always built game mechanics around Tank+Healer+Utility+DPS+DPS+Other. Most other MMO's only build around Tank+Healer+DPS+DPS+Other. SOE is the only MMO around with the depth of a utility mechanic, everyone else is fighter, healer or damage ... with little flexibility.Now raids or guilds looking for more Bards and Enchanters tell everyone looking at it, that there simply is not enough people playing them. The role of pure support is lack-luster and unrewarding. The only saving grace a Bard or Chanter has, is that the raid leaders or guild leaders realize the important of those classes under the current scope of game mechanic and seak them out.How many guilds are begging for Beastlords or Shadowknights? How many guilds don't already have 3 Inquisitors for EVERY other healing class on the roster? How many (top) raids are using something, anything besides a pure srtight up single target defensive MONK and if not Guardian, over the other 4 fighter classes?If SOE changed Bard and Chanter utility buffs to be raid wide or multiple target they certainly could cut down on the number of utility classes a raid would need, but that is NOT a solution to increasing the desireableity of a class and the enjoyment that it offers. Raid wide buffs would be a bandaid and it would only last until the few Bards and Chanters left also got sick of being prepetual T2 utility.

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 03:03 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy</blockquote>So you are saying that in the good old days tanks and healers were OPed, because everyone was looking for them.And now a days since everyone is looking for Bards/Chanters, they are the ones OPed?I mean you can not say one with out the other. If demand is what equals OP, then it must apply across the table.People want the classes because their buffs are not raid wide, so in order to get said buffs you want one for each group. Make the buffs raid wide and your silly problem is gone.</blockquote>Right, its just my silly problem, not every single guilld that is constantly looking for more. Stop with the stupid tank/healer analogies. I would of named the thread "Do tanks and healers need to be nerfed" if I thought there was an issue with them. But I didn't, so try to keep up with what threads are about and don't try to derail them with poorly thought out and executed analogies.Not every guild is recruiting for healers/tanks, but every guild is recruiting for bards/chanters. How many times do I have to say this?

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 03:13 PM

Utility is OP because they make other classes OP, hence why every group needs two of them. Classes are not desired unless they are powerful. I would say that the utility they provide are pretty powerful, hence why every raid wants two in each group. Hmmmm, so powerful that you want 2 in each group. Is there a term for the kind of power?

The Dark Savant

05-25-2012, 03:17 PM

Maybe it'll help to break it down like this.Your problem: People won't group/raid because they can't find a Bard or an Enchanter.Your solution: Nerf Bards and Enchanters.What then happens: Even less people play Bards and Enchanters.End result: People won't group/raid because they can't find a Bard or Enchanter.This is the logical flaw that others are trying to articulate here. The larger problem is this: how do you propose to nerf these four classes when the issue you identify isn't actually related to the classes themselves, but to the group mechanics of the game?

The Dark Savant

05-25-2012, 03:21 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmmm, so powerful that you want 2 in each group. Is there a term for the kind of power?</blockquote>Again, here is what you are saying:One healer is enough for a group;One tank is enough for a group;One bard/enchanter is NOT enough for a group.I cannot see how you therefore reach the conclusion that it is bards/enchanters that are overpowered and not healers/tanks, who are all so powerful that only one of them is sufficient to carry a six-person group.

Moiya

05-25-2012, 03:25 PM

Classes get nerfed from expansion to expansion, just an expansion or 2 ago the bards got nerfed and people stopped playing them, alot of people say they aren't fun anymore to play etc so when trying to fill a raid yes we do spend ages looking for just those classes and enchanters cause no1 enchanters POWER FEED grps No2 Buff bots ie BARDS increase the dps and heals output of the other classes in the raid (all other classes ie HEALERS, TANKS, DPS). So you want SoE to nerf those classes that are useful for their BUFFS/POWER that increase YOUR dps/heals, that makes sense........... seee how your dps/heals go without those buffs or on power draining mobs see how you manage with absolutely no power!!

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 03:31 PM

<cite>The Dark Savant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe it'll help to break it down like this.Your problem: People won't group/raid because they can't find a Bard or an Enchanter.Your solution: Nerf Bards and Enchanters.What then happens: Even less people play Bards and Enchanters.End result: People won't group/raid because they can't find a Bard or Enchanter.This is the logical flaw that others are trying to articulate here. The larger problem is this: how do you propose to nerf these four classes when the issue you identify isn't actually related to the classes themselves, but to the group mechanics of the game?</blockquote>In my original post I mentioned how people will sit and wait for a bard/chanter to do heroic instances. You don't need a bard for CD, but how many times do you see people spamming the chat just to make it the zone that much easier.The title for this thread is a question. Do bards and chanters need to be nerfed? Maybe they don't, but it appears that most people agree that a group and half of utility is a bit much. Raidwide buffs seems to be the most popular solution, and I agree that would be a good fix.The OP statement purely stemmed from what I said about groups waiting for a bard or chanter just to make a heroic zone easier. People ask for a tank, and will take 1 of 6 choices. People ask for a healer, and will take 1 of 6 choices. People ask for a dirge, and they take 1 of 1 choice. Sometimes, maybe they will settle for just bard, and then still, thats only 1 of 2 choices.

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 03:33 PM

<cite>Moiya@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Classes get nerfed from expansion to expansion, just an expansion or 2 ago the bards got nerfed and people stopped playing them, alot of people say they aren't fun anymore to play etc so when trying to fill a raid yes we do spend ages looking for just those classes and enchanters cause no1 enchanters POWER FEED grps No2 Buff bots ie BARDS increase the dps and heals output of the other classes in the raid (all other classes ie HEALERS, TANKS, DPS). So you want SoE to nerf those classes that are useful for their BUFFS/POWER that increase YOUR dps/heals, that makes sense........... seee how your dps/heals go without those buffs or on power draining mobs see how you manage with absolutely no power!!</blockquote>Again, somebody fortifying the OP argument. By saying things like "see how your dps/heals go without those buffs or on power draining mobs", you are admitting that these buffs are OP.

The Dark Savant

05-25-2012, 03:56 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>In my original post I mentioned how people will sit and wait for a bard/chanter to do heroic instances. You don't need a bard for CD, but how many times do you see people spamming the chat just to make it the zone that much easier.The title for this thread is a question. Do bards and chanters need to be nerfed? Maybe they don't, but it appears that most people agree that a group and half of utility is a bit much. Raidwide buffs seems to be the most popular solution, and I agree that would be a good fix.The OP statement purely stemmed from what I said about groups waiting for a bard or chanter just to make a heroic zone easier. People ask for a tank, and will take 1 of 6 choices. People ask for a healer, and will take 1 of 6 choices. People ask for a dirge, and they take 1 of 1 choice. Sometimes, maybe they will settle for just bard, and then still, thats only 1 of 2 choices.</blockquote>In the original post, you also made the good point about this being an "unpopular, low population" game. I agree! Which is why a nerf surely isn't the solution here, because the last thing you want to do in an unpopular low population game is apply any kind of severe nerf that will just drive players away.Part of the problem appears to be that enchanter/bards simply aren't that common. You're right that there are only four classes to fill two utility slots, whereas there are six tanks for the tank slot etc. So it's always going to be harder to fill those slots. The more attractive solution, given the state of the game, is to make playing a utility role more appealing by improving the utility classes and making them more desirable for players; instead of looking for them, then, they'll be rolling them. Or make utility more widely available, so that one utility specialist can be complemented by utility from a range of classes.Not perfect, but better than nerfs in a dying game.

Moiya

05-25-2012, 03:57 PM

Ok You say and I quote "Its hard enough filling groups in an unpopular, low population game. Why make it even harder?" and thats your reason why bards/ enchanters need to be nerfed............. all i can say since you wanna stay with your argument that those classes are OP is go roll a bard/enchanter and then come back here lata and say you wanna be nerfed. Pretty sure you wouldn't be complaining about it then!Grpage depends on who the grp leader is and whom they're willing to take, there are alot of grps out there that will skip the enchanter/bard cause they know they can blow thru a zone real fast w/o them, my trouby can sit there for days lfg and not get anywhere while I see grps asking for dirges instead but you don't hear me crying dirges need a nerf, it all comes down to wat a certain grp wants at that time, it also comes down to if people know you are a sucky player doesn't matter if youre a class they need they won't invite you at all and we have quite a few of those on our server alone.PS I have all 25 classes in game and i play them all so that i can learn wat works best with wat class etc so i'm not just talking from the bard/enchanter side of things.

Yimway

05-25-2012, 04:11 PM

<cite>Zalakria@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>But seriously, did someone just claim bards and chanters are OPed with a straight face?</blockquote>He doesn't understand the terminology. He is saying the game is too dependent on utility, it should be changed so that utility isn't the most important and difficult thing for a raidforce to find. (his words, not exactly mine, but the value of utility is pretty darn high, and what you can kill without it is low).I think he's suggesting that since we find having 8 utility classes on raids to be essential and the most beneficial solution, something should be done to make an ideal force need less utility slots. Which is an arguement I could get behind given as a whole how utility class players seem to have the lowest enjoyment factor.

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 04:50 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zalakria@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>But seriously, did someone just claim bards and chanters are OPed with a straight face?</blockquote>He doesn't understand the terminology. He is saying the game is too dependent on utility, it should be changed so that utility isn't the most important and difficult thing for a raidforce to find. (his words, not exactly mine, but the value of utility is pretty darn high, and what you can kill without it is low).I think he's suggesting that since we find having 8 utility classes on raids to be essential and the most beneficial solution, something should be done to make an ideal force need less utility slots. Which is an arguement I could get behind given as a whole how utility class players seem to have the lowest enjoyment factor.</blockquote>I have a much better understanding of the terminology then the people claiming that they are not OP, and then insinuating that the game would be impossible without them. "Go ahead and nerf them and see what happens to your dps/heals/power". That is blantantly admitting that they are OP to the point of without them, everything would change and be 10x more difficult. The buffs are OP, so the ones wielding the buffs have to be OP by association. When a bard joins a group, they are officially OP, how else do you explain people waiting for a bard to fill the spot of a heroic dungeon? They make it that much easier because they are OP.Not only are the OP, but they make everybody around them OP. People want OP groups, so they wait for OP classes so that everybody will be OP because of the kings of OP, OP bards and OP chanters. So OP, just so so OP.P.S. Chanters and Bards are OP.

Yimway

05-25-2012, 04:57 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>P.S. Chanters and Bards are OP.</blockquote>Then we don't agree. The game was designed such that you need utility classes to meet your own class's full potential. To be able to do so without utility would negate having the classes in game. So I can't agree they are OP.I can agree, the design is bad that you need 8 of them in a 24 man force to unlock everyone's potential. That should change, but a non-utility class reaching potential without utility, no thats not EQ2.

Rahatmattata

05-25-2012, 05:13 PM

To answer your question and the title of this thread - <a name="5759383">Do bards and chanters need to be nerfed?</a>No.

Alenna

05-25-2012, 05:34 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy</blockquote>So you are saying that in the good old days tanks and healers were OPed, because everyone was looking for them.And now a days since everyone is looking for Bards/Chanters, they are the ones OPed?I mean you can not say one with out the other. If demand is what equals OP, then it must apply across the table.People want the classes because their buffs are not raid wide, so in order to get said buffs you want one for each group. Make the buffs raid wide and your silly problem is gone.</blockquote>Right, its just my silly problem, not every single guilld that is constantly looking for more. Stop with the stupid tank/healer analogies. I would of named the thread "Do tanks and healers need to be nerfed" if I thought there was an issue with them. But I didn't, so try to keep up with what threads are about and don't try to derail them with poorly thought out and executed analogies.Not every guild is recruiting for healers/tanks, but every guild is recruiting for bards/chanters. How many times do I have to say this?</blockquote>The bards and chanters are anything but OP and do not NEED to be NERFED if you the class you play to be wanted in group or raid then ask for some help wiht YOUR Class do not ask for other classes to be nerfed.the reason folks want to have bards and chanters is becuase of raid and group instance mechanics not becuase they are OP.and I htink you you don't understand what Determent was saying, you were asking that a class htat does not need to be nerfed be nerfed becuase of the desirblity of htat class in groups and raids, he was just turnign it around and telling you what you sounded like, a silly person wanting to nerf some classes becuase his class was not desirable while those classes are, of course most Tanks and healers weren't OP when all the groups were asking for them anymore hten bards and chanters are now. get over yourself it was very much on the topic and an explainion on why you are wrong to ask for a nerf of said classes.

Alenna

05-25-2012, 05:37 PM

<cite>The Dark Savant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmmm, so powerful that you want 2 in each group. Is there a term for the kind of power?</blockquote>Again, here is what you are saying:One healer is enough for a group;One tank is enough for a group;One bard/enchanter is NOT enough for a group.I cannot see how you therefore reach the conclusion that it is bards/enchanters that are overpowered and not healers/tanks, who are all so powerful that only one of them is sufficient to carry a six-person group.</blockquote>This ^^^^^ I hope that the OP of this post will understand what is being said and not continue his silly request.

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 06:26 PM

<cite>Alenna@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The Dark Savant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmmm, so powerful that you want 2 in each group. Is there a term for the kind of power?</blockquote>Again, here is what you are saying:One healer is enough for a group;One tank is enough for a group;One bard/enchanter is NOT enough for a group.I cannot see how you therefore reach the conclusion that it is bards/enchanters that are overpowered and not healers/tanks, who are all so powerful that only one of them is sufficient to carry a six-person group.</blockquote>This ^^^^^ I hope that the OP of this post will understand what is being said and not continue his silly request.</blockquote>You want to go ahead and quote where I requested anything? You can't, because I didn't. I asked a question about bards and chanters being nerfed becaue of thier OP buffs. I didn't request for it to be done, was just asking if it should be.Stop with the tank and healer analogies omg. Tanks and healers are the standard of every MMO, as it was stated earlier, this game puts a much larger emphasis on utility then other games and that makes for funneling even more players that this game doesn't have to specific classes.So the question was should they be nerfed. The unanimous answer is no. However, most people have agreed that utility should not have to take up a group and half worth of space. So, the discussion had a purpose and brought to light that 8 utility classes is overkill and should not be required because there are not enough people that want to play them. Thank you for your input and hopefully they will consider our thoughts.

Rijacki

05-25-2012, 06:32 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmmm, so powerful that you want 2 in each group. Is there a term for the kind of power?</blockquote>So powerful you want/need to have 2 in every group.. yeah there is a term for that kind of power. They're -under- powered if you need to have 2 in each group to effectively use their utility. If their capabilities were increased, you'd need -fewer- of them. Increases in capabilities are rarely done to bring the balance of something OP in line with others.Yes, bards and chanters could easily be considered Underpowered and in need of some improvements so that not as many of them are wanted/needed on a raid.

Geothe

05-25-2012, 06:36 PM

I really wish SoE would not of scapped the raid wide buff thing for Chanters/Bards they started in SF beta I believe it was.Basically the aim was to make all their group buffs raid wide, and all their single target buffs castable on 1 person per group (only allowing one buff per group, so double illys in 1 raid did not give 8 TCs. etc).It wouldn't of restricted the current 8 bard/chanter thing going on. But would allow for many of those bards/chanters to play other classes while not casting the raid key buffs (which most would jump at doing honestly).But that idea is dead and buried and I dont see it every being brought back with the current Dev team which is even smaller, and seemingly doesn't even care about that entire aspect of the game what-so-ever.

Leawyn

05-25-2012, 06:42 PM

<cite>Zalakria@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they were OP then there would be a ton of them all over the place. The fact is the opposite, they are so underpowered and boring that nobody wants to be forced to play one.</blockquote>Hey, some of us enjoy our chanters and don't consider them boring at all. I love my illy!!!! Tho I wish her power abilities were more comparable to coercers. So please don't make statements like "Nobody wants to be forced to play one." Because its simply false.

Rijacki

05-25-2012, 07:39 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zalakria@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they were OP then there would be a ton of them all over the place. The fact is the opposite, they are so underpowered and boring that nobody wants to be forced to play one.</blockquote>Hey, some of us enjoy our chanters and don't consider them boring at all. I love my illy!!!! Tho I wish her power abilities were more comparable to coercers. So please don't make statements like "Nobody wants to be forced to play one." Because its simply false.</blockquote>I love my coercer, too, and would not trade her for the world.But, illy's have better and more buffs for heroic groups. In heroic content there is rarely a need for a coercer's better power abilities and not as much use for their hate enhancing outside of raids.

Ahih

05-25-2012, 09:43 PM

I think that rangers are OP too. There is just too many of them playing still. I JUST SEE SO MANY OF THEM IN RAIDS NOW A DAYS THAT IT JUST MAKES ME WANNA CRY.... better nerf then quick before the people still playing them betray to assassins.On a side note, I do enjoy playing my troubadour. At least I used to....

Equilibrium

05-25-2012, 10:53 PM

<cite>Ahih wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that rangers are OP too. There is just too many of them playing still. I JUST SEE SO MANY OF THEM IN RAIDS NOW A DAYS THAT IT JUST MAKES ME WANNA CRY.... better nerf then quick before the people still playing them betray to assassins.On a side note, I do enjoy playing my troubadour. At least I used to....</blockquote>The fact you were actually trying to be funny is the only thing funny about this.

Ahlana

05-25-2012, 11:27 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy</blockquote>So you are saying that in the good old days tanks and healers were OPed, because everyone was looking for them.And now a days since everyone is looking for Bards/Chanters, they are the ones OPed?I mean you can not say one with out the other. If demand is what equals OP, then it must apply across the table.People want the classes because their buffs are not raid wide, so in order to get said buffs you want one for each group. Make the buffs raid wide and your silly problem is gone.</blockquote>Right, its just my silly problem, not every single guilld that is constantly looking for more. Stop with the stupid tank/healer analogies. I would of named the thread "Do tanks and healers need to be nerfed" if I thought there was an issue with them. But I didn't, so try to keep up with what threads are about and don't try to derail them with poorly thought out and executed analogies.Not every guild is recruiting for healers/tanks, but every guild is recruiting for bards/chanters. How many times do I have to say this?</blockquote>You got me.. and everyone else... You caught us out, we are unworthy of having you around to explain things to us.You must be the mesiah come to show us the enlightened path and we are wrong to disagree with you.. we are ALL wrong.. I mention all because so far no one has agreed with you. So obviously you must be the one that is right, I mean all your other logic is flawed so it only makes sense...Either that or you are the ultimate troll and I appluad you for getting us all to bite.

Equilibrium

05-26-2012, 01:18 AM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy</blockquote>So you are saying that in the good old days tanks and healers were OPed, because everyone was looking for them.And now a days since everyone is looking for Bards/Chanters, they are the ones OPed?I mean you can not say one with out the other. If demand is what equals OP, then it must apply across the table.People want the classes because their buffs are not raid wide, so in order to get said buffs you want one for each group. Make the buffs raid wide and your silly problem is gone.</blockquote>Right, its just my silly problem, not every single guilld that is constantly looking for more. Stop with the stupid tank/healer analogies. I would of named the thread "Do tanks and healers need to be nerfed" if I thought there was an issue with them. But I didn't, so try to keep up with what threads are about and don't try to derail them with poorly thought out and executed analogies.Not every guild is recruiting for healers/tanks, but every guild is recruiting for bards/chanters. How many times do I have to say this?</blockquote>You got me.. and everyone else... You caught us out, we are unworthy of having you around to explain things to us.You must be the mesiah come to show us the enlightened path and we are wrong to disagree with you.. we are ALL wrong.. I mention all because so far no one has agreed with you. So obviously you must be the one that is right, I mean all your other logic is flawed so it only makes sense...Either that or you are the ultimate troll and I appluad you for getting us all to bite.</blockquote>I understand that sarcasm is the easiest way to attempt humor if you are not funny, but give it a break people. Scroll up and read, just about everybody agrees that a group and half of utility should be re-worked. The only thing people disagree with is that the buffs are OP, which I still say they are. However, that has proven to be the less important point here. The main point is that raids should not be forced to require a group and a half of utility classes.

Mermut

05-26-2012, 01:29 AM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand that sarcasm is the easiest way to attempt humor if you are not funny, but give it a break people. Scroll up and read, just about everybody agrees that a group and half of utility should be re-worked. The only thing people disagree with is that the buffs are OP, which I still say they are. However, that has proven to be the less important point here. The main point is that raids should not be forced to require a group and a half of utility classes.</blockquote>Raids are not forced to run with 8 utility toons. They are nice to have and can give an added boost, but a well balanced group can easily get away with just 1 ultilty (bard or chanter) even none, in a pinch, though I wouldn't want to try 'none' in an MT or OT group. I also fail to see how utility buffs are 'over powered' when individual gear peices give as much or more then many of their buffs. What utility allows plays in a stable well played group to do is maximize their stats... they know the other toons in their group are giving them x, y and z, so they can toon their gear to take that into account. Utilty classes are not the only ones with some awesome group buffage.

Destria

05-26-2012, 05:54 AM

simply put, the OP completely fails to grasp at WHY a raid DESIRES 8 utility, they don't NEED 8, they can certainly do just fine without 8, 1 per group is sufficient....but more makes life easier. You go do a raid...and when you spend time between EVERY fight, EVERY SINGLE FIGHT, waiting for power to regen because of power drains and general consumption because you didn't have a troub or chanter feeding power, you just doubled your raid time at the MINIMUM, more then likely you will spend 4-5 times as long in that zone JUST on account of downtime. Go ahead...call BS on me, there is so much power drain in SS its beyond ridiculous, raid or group content, instance or contested, and, if your not killing fast enough, theres even a bit of power drain in the solo instances.You bring my troub into the mage group on a raid, all of a sudden, they are 10 times LESS likely to get resisted because I'm buffing up their spell skills ~disruption, subjugation, ministration, etc~ increasing their DPS, I'll increase their HP by 5-8K, the heals recieved by 5%, add a chance to damage proc on their spell casts, increase resists so they die less, add a chance to reflect/absorb spells. However...the cost of this? while they are doing 200K+ dps....I'm stuck around the 75K mark, because I'm busy busting my balls to keep buff rotations and power feeds going where they need to go, and using my temp buffs and timing RO/VC for maximum output, and when necessary, swapping out buffs as needed, often mid fight.But thats just me...one troub...I'm good at my class, I know it, I've been told as much, and I'm desired in a group. I often spend very little time LFG, unlike my necro that can spend hours LFG. When I get in a group and I'm mad because my buffs are out on everyone and i'm doing the utility bit, and my DPS is around the 50-60K mark, most people are just happy that I'm more then a buffbot.Fact is, utility classes are NOT easy to be good at, and effective, while maintaining the utlity and contributing to the DPS, its possible, but you have to work your backside off for it. You want a class that needs nerfed...look over at the beastlord, you can faceroll your keyboard and sit on the mouse and out DPS equally geared T1 dps thats actually working for their parse. BL brings DPS, and a fair shake of utility if they want, to a group/raid.Simply put, Bards and Chanters are UTILITY, our job is to make YOU suck less. We're the mechanics that keep your car running great, and we won't get any real recognition for it most of the time, but those of us who enjoy what we do, don't mind, because we know that we're needed, and desired, and there will ALWAYS be a place for us.And, as has already been said, and beat to death and beyond~the problem is not that the utility is OP, its that MOST people don't want to play the utility, theres no real glory in it, you become the unsung hero; you won't show up on the parse, because everyone else is doing your dps and heals, because its your job to make them better, and look better, and perform better.

ranga

05-26-2012, 07:44 AM

Reading this thread and the OPs replies I am at a loss!What does the OP suggest? A nerf to utility making groups less likely to beat content or for that content to be effectively harder? Beef up non utility so that utility is less desired making the content the same and doable with less classes? eradicate detriments that utility counters making the game more shallow? Make every class homogeneous so we all become beastlords and no class is 'required'?I get the feeling the OP is just mad cos he spends too much time looking for groups that don't need or want his class.Heres a sensible suggestion that no one else has made. Go roll a utility and become desirable. You can be like some of the rest of us who actually enjoy rather than being forced into a class. You might even begin to enjoy your game again. You might, like some of us even be the top end of T2 or even get into T1 if you can play the class properly. I am a coercer, my group never runs out of power and I rarely miss the parse, often in the top 4 and sometimes higher. No, we are not hardcore, if we were I would never be that high.In short, this game is built around class balance, often people say the game sucks at it but the framework is there. It won't be changed. Certain classes will get some individual love from expac to expac; RoK - guardians were king, TSO SK were king, SF/DoV Monks/guards were king and of course Inqs in DoV are the business.In short, if you are finding it too hard to get/fill groups, change your style or your class but don't ever think utility or other classes/sub classes need a nerf because of fundamental game design/balance.

Equilibrium

05-26-2012, 06:33 PM

<cite>ranga wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reading this thread and the OPs replies I am at a loss!What does the OP suggest? A nerf to utility making groups less likely to beat content or for that content to be effectively harder? Beef up non utility so that utility is less desired making the content the same and doable with less classes? eradicate detriments that utility counters making the game more shallow? Make every class homogeneous so we all become beastlords and no class is 'required'?I get the feeling the OP is just mad cos he spends too much time looking for groups that don't need or want his class.Heres a sensible suggestion that no one else has made. Go roll a utility and become desirable. You can be like some of the rest of us who actually enjoy rather than being forced into a class. You might even begin to enjoy your game again. You might, like some of us even be the top end of T2 or even get into T1 if you can play the class properly. I am a coercer, my group never runs out of power and I rarely miss the parse, often in the top 4 and sometimes higher. No, we are not hardcore, if we were I would never be that high.In short, this game is built around class balance, often people say the game sucks at it but the framework is there. It won't be changed. Certain classes will get some individual love from expac to expac; RoK - guardians were king, TSO SK were king, SF/DoV Monks/guards were king and of course Inqs in DoV are the business.In short, if you are finding it too hard to get/fill groups, change your style or your class but don't ever think utility or other classes/sub classes need a nerf because of fundamental game design/balance.</blockquote>Its funny that started this reply with "reading this thread", because if you did you certainly did not comprehend anything. I never suggested nerfing them. Look at the title. Do you see that little punctuation mark at the end of it? Oh did you see that? There it is again. Its called a question mark. People use those when they are asking a question. When they are making suggestions, they use periods at the end of the sentence.The only thing I suggested was that utility buffs are OP, and then people made a bunch of posts confirming it. Like this little golden nugget."You bring my troub into the mage group on a raid, all of a sudden, they are 10 times LESS likely to get resisted because I'm buffing up their spell skills ~disruption, subjugation, ministration, etc~ increasing their DPS, I'll increase their HP by 5-8K, the heals recieved by 5%, add a chance to damage proc on their spell casts, increase resists so they die less, add a chance to reflect/absorb spells. However...the cost of this? while they are doing 200K+ dps....I'm stuck around the 75K mark, because I'm busy busting my balls to keep buff rotations and power feeds going where they need to go, and using my temp buffs and timing RO/VC for maximum output, and when necessary, swapping out buffs as needed, often mid fight."I am suggesting however, like most the other people in this thread, that these buffs be made available to more then just the bard/chanters group. A group and half worth of utility is crazy, and even crazier to try to recruit for in such a low population game. Most others games like this do not put such an emphasis on utility, as somebody said earlier in the thread. That is true, and it is also true that most of those games are more popular.The discussion is no longer should they be nerfed. That discussion has ended with a unanimous no. I never suggested nerfing them, but I did ask if they should be. Asking and suggesting are two different things. The discussion now is should thier buffs be raid wide so you not every guild is constantly recruiting for 8 of them. The answer so far has been clearly yes.

Destria

05-26-2012, 06:50 PM

You have obviously failed to comprehend that "juicy little nugget" of mine you chose to quote. Heres a little nugget from it "busting my balls to keep buff rotations and power feeds going" I don't bring all this to the table to stand around and do nothing, I have to work for it, its what makes the difference between utility and GOOD utility. The best bards on a server are always known, because they work the hardest to be the best at their class despite the lazy faction of their class who cry because their class is broken and needs love ~see troubadour class forum~. If you bother to read that little forum, you will see it is primarily filled with QQ about how broken the class is, how its been nerfed into oblivion, and how much the class sucks. So...if you ask me, going off the majority from my class, a nerf would destroy us even further; however, those of us who put forth the effort and make the class look good will still get this same QQ from people like you that we are OP.I know of a mystic who can top the heal parse and still put out 300K+ dps...I only know of one...but...thats enough right? should they be nerfed? I know of a few inquis who can solo heal any SS instance, EM/HM, and still put out high DPS numbers, 100K+ easily...should they be nerfed? I met a defiler, read that DEFILER, who solo healed CD HM, and topped the parse everytime at over 200K....should defilers be nerfed? Necromancers can solo everything but raids at the intended level pre-DoV...should necromancers be nerfed?There you go...your argument calls for ALL of those classes to be nerfed, period. Heres a better idea, go become desirable, make yourself useful enough to be desired in a group. Simply being a bard doesn't guarantee you a spot in a group, or a chanter for that matter, I know of a few bard/chanter toons that I simply will not group with because they do not know how to play their class and refuse to learn.And stop crying with the QQ on how OP bards and chanters are, as troubs go, I'm in the minority, not the majority; I put a LOT of work into my toon to be where she is now, and she is only as good as she is because of that work.

Equilibrium

05-26-2012, 07:09 PM

<cite>Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have obviously failed to comprehend that "juicy little nugget" of mine you chose to quote. Heres a little nugget from it "busting my balls to keep buff rotations and power feeds going" I don't bring all this to the table to stand around and do nothing, I have to work for it, its what makes the difference between utility and GOOD utility. The best bards on a server are always known, because they work the hardest to be the best at their class despite the lazy faction of their class who cry because their class is broken and needs love ~see troubadour class forum~. If you bother to read that little forum, you will see it is primarily filled with QQ about how broken the class is, how its been nerfed into oblivion, and how much the class sucks. So...if you ask me, going off the majority from my class, a nerf would destroy us even further; however, those of us who put forth the effort and make the class look good will still get this same QQ from people like you that we are OP.I know of a mystic who can top the heal parse and still put out 300K+ dps...I only know of one...but...thats enough right? should they be nerfed? I know of a few inquis who can solo heal any SS instance, EM/HM, and still put out high DPS numbers, 100K+ easily...should they be nerfed? I met a defiler, read that DEFILER, who solo healed CD HM, and topped the parse everytime at over 200K....should defilers be nerfed? Necromancers can solo everything but raids at the intended level pre-DoV...should necromancers be nerfed?There you go...your argument calls for ALL of those classes to be nerfed, period. Heres a better idea, go become desirable, make yourself useful enough to be desired in a group. Simply being a bard doesn't guarantee you a spot in a group, or a chanter for that matter, I know of a few bard/chanter toons that I simply will not group with because they do not know how to play their class and refuse to learn.And stop crying with the QQ on how OP bards and chanters are, as troubs go, I'm in the minority, not the majority; I put a LOT of work into my toon to be where she is now, and she is only as good as she is because of that work.</blockquote>Calm down junior. Its obvious you think very highly of yourself, so why I am even bothering talking to such a megalomaniac. I normally just shrug off the self righteous, but I feel maybe you can be saved from loving yourself so much. I understand the need for self esteem, but come on now. You are literally in love with yourself.I play a 92 healer, tank and scout dps. I never had an issue of being "undersirable". What does annoy me though is constantly having to keep spots open in raids in the hopes that maybe we will get some more utility to fill the eight spots the game demands for them. Don't act like its just my guild that is always looking for more. There are not enough, and too many are needed. If you disagree with that, then you are part of the problem.

Destria

05-26-2012, 08:45 PM

And once you again you fail to comprehend whats being said....noone has argued that there aren't enough utility in the game, the point with that, as has been reiterated time and again, is people don't play them because most don't enjoy them, and most don't like NOT being recognized for the contribution to the raid/group on the parse. And as stated, I am good at my class because I work hard at it, not because its easy to play. Nothing wrong with recognizing that you are good at your class because you work at it.That said...you fail comprehending what a utility is and does, why they are needed and desired, and why so many people will wait so long for one, and even more so at why there are so few.This honestly felt like a troll post from the beginning, and your failure at comprehension is either a pointed statement at your failure in education, or your a troll...either way, the points have been made, you have ignored them or completely failed to comprehend them, and continued your trollish posts.

Equilibrium

05-26-2012, 10:01 PM

<cite>Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>And once you again you fail to comprehend whats being said....noone has argued that there aren't enough utility in the game, the point with that, as has been reiterated time and again, is people don't play them because most don't enjoy them, and most don't like NOT being recognized for the contribution to the raid/group on the parse. And as stated, I am good at my class because I work hard at it, not because its easy to play. Nothing wrong with recognizing that you are good at your class because you work at it.That said...you fail comprehending what a utility is and does, why they are needed and desired, and why so many people will wait so long for one, and even more so at why there are so few.This honestly felt like a troll post from the beginning, and your failure at comprehension is either a pointed statement at your failure in education, or your a troll...either way, the points have been made, you have ignored them or completely failed to comprehend them, and continued your trollish posts.</blockquote>That is not the point, that is YOUR point. The main point is that too many spots are needed for utility. Even if more people played utility classes, a group and half worth of them is too much. We all understand why most people don't like playing them. You are not breaking any ground there with your comments. That is not the discussion, since its something we all know. If you have any useful information that maybe we don't already know, then feel free to share that. Your posts are nothing but self appreciation about how great you are, and then information that everybody already knows and agrees with, including me. What is your point, or do you just add all that in the middle of saying how great you are to have a reason to post?Here are your posts:"Im so awesome, its true. I am the second coming of Jesus in a video game. I rule. People don't like playing bards because they don't really get the appreciation they deserve and don't parse very high. I take back what I said earlier. I am not Jesus, I am God. I am so good at this game and everything else that I do. My dps lacks sometimes because im busy buffing everybody else and debuffing mobs. Bards work thier butts off and don't get the glory. I love myself, I really do. What is there not to love? I am so good at everything in this world. That may be because I created it, being God and all. But still, I even amaze myself from time to time. Bards don't get enough credit for what they do".

ranga

05-27-2012, 03:43 AM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ranga wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reading this thread and the OPs replies I am at a loss!What does the OP suggest? A nerf to utility making groups less likely to beat content or for that content to be effectively harder? Beef up non utility so that utility is less desired making the content the same and doable with less classes? eradicate detriments that utility counters making the game more shallow? Make every class homogeneous so we all become beastlords and no class is 'required'?I get the feeling the OP is just mad cos he spends too much time looking for groups that don't need or want his class.Heres a sensible suggestion that no one else has made. Go roll a utility and become desirable. You can be like some of the rest of us who actually enjoy rather than being forced into a class. You might even begin to enjoy your game again. You might, like some of us even be the top end of T2 or even get into T1 if you can play the class properly. I am a coercer, my group never runs out of power and I rarely miss the parse, often in the top 4 and sometimes higher. No, we are not hardcore, if we were I would never be that high.In short, this game is built around class balance, often people say the game sucks at it but the framework is there. It won't be changed. Certain classes will get some individual love from expac to expac; RoK - guardians were king, TSO SK were king, SF/DoV Monks/guards were king and of course Inqs in DoV are the business.In short, if you are finding it too hard to get/fill groups, change your style or your class but don't ever think utility or other classes/sub classes need a nerf because of fundamental game design/balance.</blockquote>Its funny that started this reply with "reading this thread", because if you did you certainly did not comprehend anything. I never suggested nerfing them. Look at the title. Do you see that little punctuation mark at the end of it? Oh did you see that? There it is again. Its called a question mark. People use those when they are asking a question. When they are making suggestions, they use periods at the end of the sentence.The only thing I suggested was that utility buffs are OP, and then people made a bunch of posts confirming it. Like this little golden nugget."You bring my troub into the mage group on a raid, all of a sudden, they are 10 times LESS likely to get resisted because I'm buffing up their spell skills ~disruption, subjugation, ministration, etc~ increasing their DPS, I'll increase their HP by 5-8K, the heals recieved by 5%, add a chance to damage proc on their spell casts, increase resists so they die less, add a chance to reflect/absorb spells. However...the cost of this? while they are doing 200K+ dps....I'm stuck around the 75K mark, because I'm busy busting my balls to keep buff rotations and power feeds going where they need to go, and using my temp buffs and timing RO/VC for maximum output, and when necessary, swapping out buffs as needed, often mid fight."I am suggesting however, like most the other people in this thread, that these buffs be made available to more then just the bard/chanters group. A group and half worth of utility is crazy, and even crazier to try to recruit for in such a low population game. Most others games like this do not put such an emphasis on utility, as somebody said earlier in the thread. That is true, and it is also true that most of those games are more popular.The discussion is no longer should they be nerfed. That discussion has ended with a unanimous no. I never suggested nerfing them, but I did ask if they should be. Asking and suggesting are two different things. The discussion now is should thier buffs be raid wide so you not every guild is constantly recruiting for 8 of them. The answer so far has been clearly yes.</blockquote>A little earlier, you were crying about people using sarcasm because they couldn't do humour. Well, I suggest you look to yourself before deriding others for a poor trait that you have so obviously mastered. Note the period, it's a statement.So with your ill though out logic, what would you fill your hypothetical raid with now once you have four slots free? T1 dps no doubt. So in effect you are not asking for a nerf to bards or chanters, you want to nerf the WHOLE GAME.Your trolling reminds me of a petulant child that simply does not 'get' why he is not allowed an ice cream at bedtime. Best thing you can do is roll a class that is in demand then you might get groups without affecting the game for a whole raft of people who actually enjoy playing their class and being useful to any setup. Note I said 'useful' not 'essential'. Please also note that there was no question mark there either. The whole nub of your whining suggests that bards and chanters are essential, they are not. They are desirable by group and raid leaders because they complement the other 'essential' classes of tank, healer and dps. If you don't get that, perhaps it's time to consider one of those other games that you profess are more popular than this. Given that Sony never, ever releases marketing numbers, you cannot possibly make that claim because there can be no evidence to support it.Now, jog on and go try to find a group.

Equilibrium

05-27-2012, 06:51 AM

<cite>ranga wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ranga wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reading this thread and the OPs replies I am at a loss!What does the OP suggest? A nerf to utility making groups less likely to beat content or for that content to be effectively harder? Beef up non utility so that utility is less desired making the content the same and doable with less classes? eradicate detriments that utility counters making the game more shallow? Make every class homogeneous so we all become beastlords and no class is 'required'?I get the feeling the OP is just mad cos he spends too much time looking for groups that don't need or want his class.Heres a sensible suggestion that no one else has made. Go roll a utility and become desirable. You can be like some of the rest of us who actually enjoy rather than being forced into a class. You might even begin to enjoy your game again. You might, like some of us even be the top end of T2 or even get into T1 if you can play the class properly. I am a coercer, my group never runs out of power and I rarely miss the parse, often in the top 4 and sometimes higher. No, we are not hardcore, if we were I would never be that high.In short, this game is built around class balance, often people say the game sucks at it but the framework is there. It won't be changed. Certain classes will get some individual love from expac to expac; RoK - guardians were king, TSO SK were king, SF/DoV Monks/guards were king and of course Inqs in DoV are the business.In short, if you are finding it too hard to get/fill groups, change your style or your class but don't ever think utility or other classes/sub classes need a nerf because of fundamental game design/balance.</blockquote>Its funny that started this reply with "reading this thread", because if you did you certainly did not comprehend anything. I never suggested nerfing them. Look at the title. Do you see that little punctuation mark at the end of it? Oh did you see that? There it is again. Its called a question mark. People use those when they are asking a question. When they are making suggestions, they use periods at the end of the sentence.The only thing I suggested was that utility buffs are OP, and then people made a bunch of posts confirming it. Like this little golden nugget."You bring my troub into the mage group on a raid, all of a sudden, they are 10 times LESS likely to get resisted because I'm buffing up their spell skills ~disruption, subjugation, ministration, etc~ increasing their DPS, I'll increase their HP by 5-8K, the heals recieved by 5%, add a chance to damage proc on their spell casts, increase resists so they die less, add a chance to reflect/absorb spells. However...the cost of this? while they are doing 200K+ dps....I'm stuck around the 75K mark, because I'm busy busting my balls to keep buff rotations and power feeds going where they need to go, and using my temp buffs and timing RO/VC for maximum output, and when necessary, swapping out buffs as needed, often mid fight."I am suggesting however, like most the other people in this thread, that these buffs be made available to more then just the bard/chanters group. A group and half worth of utility is crazy, and even crazier to try to recruit for in such a low population game. Most others games like this do not put such an emphasis on utility, as somebody said earlier in the thread. That is true, and it is also true that most of those games are more popular.The discussion is no longer should they be nerfed. That discussion has ended with a unanimous no. I never suggested nerfing them, but I did ask if they should be. Asking and suggesting are two different things. The discussion now is should thier buffs be raid wide so you not every guild is constantly recruiting for 8 of them. The answer so far has been clearly yes.</blockquote>A little earlier, you were crying about people using sarcasm because they couldn't do humour. Well, I suggest you look to yourself before deriding others for a poor trait that you have so obviously mastered. Note the period, it's a statement.So with your ill though out logic, what would you fill your hypothetical raid with now once you have four slots free? T1 dps no doubt. So in effect you are not asking for a nerf to bards or chanters, you want to nerf the WHOLE GAME.Your trolling reminds me of a petulant child that simply does not 'get' why he is not allowed an ice cream at bedtime. Best thing you can do is roll a class that is in demand then you might get groups without affecting the game for a whole raft of people who actually enjoy playing their class and being useful to any setup. Note I said 'useful' not 'essential'. Please also note that there was no question mark there either. The whole nub of your whining suggests that bards and chanters are essential, they are not. They are desirable by group and raid leaders because they complement the other 'essential' classes of tank, healer and dps. If you don't get that, perhaps it's time to consider one of those other games that you profess are more popular than this. Given that Sony never, ever releases marketing numbers, you cannot possibly make that claim because there can be no evidence to support it.Now, jog on and go try to find a group.</blockquote>Explain to me how shining light on an issue that almost everybody in this thread agrees needs to fixed is trolling? Utility should not be taking up a group and a half. Whether you agreel or not, every raiding guild is always recruiting for them, which means they are saving room for them, which means the raids are not full without them, which means they are essential. Im not surprised you don't grasp the concept, being as how you actually cant tell the games population is struggling without Sony releasing numbers. Everybody else just looks around and figures it out for themselves. Its already time for more server merges.

Rijacki

05-27-2012, 11:57 AM

Tyrus Dracofire

05-27-2012, 12:34 PM

during KoS, conjy and necro were much needed for raids, for pet pulling tricks where the tanks cant pull that far without healers' range and protections.now bards and enchanters both are needed to counter-measure vs power drains, and they are better group buffer, they made groups look better.no, i dont think they need to get nerf, why? without buffs they provided to teams and they will fail more often and that make many players get frustrated, or otherwise they would quit playing eq2 long time ago. it is no fun.i dont want eq2 to be very extreme over challenging game. if they start nerfing, and players start to lose more often, then who fault is it? it not us who cant play something that is so weak, then they will go look for other games that will fit thier playstyle and happy to feel powerful.it make me think that you want eq2 to die? eq2 becoming as ghost town because of nerfing that is unpopular, it is suppose to be a game and fun, it isnt suppose to have stressfull situation or bad roadblocker that stop the game.we just had that bad experiences during DoV's early raiding stage when it was full of bugs and some bosses were unkillable or faced with deadly combo of aoe attacks, then it start making the players to quit in disgusted with SOE's mess and nerfs.i want to play my paladin like he had before GU 13, it was one of most dominant class that can solo almost anything at same-con level heroic mobs if geared correctly. it harder to find groups to accept paladins and i had to play dirge to get in groups and raids.

ranga

05-27-2012, 12:36 PM

<cite>ranga wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stuff...</cite>So with your ill though out logic, what would you fill your hypothetical raid with now once you have four slots free? T1 dps no doubt. So in effect you are not asking for a nerf to bards or chanters, you want to nerf the WHOLE GAME.More Stuff</blockquote>And I cannot work out where you are coming from. Is the game balanced perfectly? no. Is it likely to ever be? No. Please answer the point above.It's difficult to tell whether you are a raider who cannot fill his raids because the rest aren't good enough without the said classes or whether your'e an SK who cannot get a raid spot because outside of mt/ot no one wants sk's anymore. Kindly tell us?For the record, we raid with a two chanters and two bards purely because we cannot get anyone to play them. But that is a totally different issue, one borne of all the unrelated problems that you so easily dismiss i.e they are boring etc... Does that stop us raiding? No. Would we choose other DPS classes to fill the empty spots? Maybe.Population issues and server merges are arguably required but not because bards/chanters are op.

Mermut

05-27-2012, 01:08 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite>Explain to me how shining light on an issue that almost everybody in this thread agrees needs to fixed is trolling? Utility should not be taking up a group and a half. Whether you agreel or not, every raiding guild is always recruiting for them, which means they are saving room for them, which means the raids are not full without them, which means they are essential. Im not surprised you don't grasp the concept, being as how you actually cant tell the games population is struggling without Sony releasing numbers. Everybody else just looks around and figures it out for themselves. Its already time for more server merges.</blockquote> Uhm... so far as I can tell, nobody in this thread has agreed with you. If a raid has a power drain, a chanter is the best (but not only) way to deal with it. This doesn't make them OP any more then then it makes healers OP because they are the ONLY way to deal with curses that are cure or wipe. People try to recruit them for raids because they are USEFUL, but not necessary. The reason people are 'always looking for them', is because relatively few people play them. If they were overpowered, everybody would be playing them, as happens with most other classes that are overpowered... there end up being too many, not too few of them. You reject my anology with healers (and tanks), but the logic is the same you're using. "Everybody wants them for a group/raid, they must be overpowered!" They are under-played, not overpowered.

Equilibrium

05-27-2012, 04:51 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite>Explain to me how shining light on an issue that almost everybody in this thread agrees needs to fixed is trolling? Utility should not be taking up a group and a half. Whether you agreel or not, every raiding guild is always recruiting for them, which means they are saving room for them, which means the raids are not full without them, which means they are essential. Im not surprised you don't grasp the concept, being as how you actually cant tell the games population is struggling without Sony releasing numbers. Everybody else just looks around and figures it out for themselves. Its already time for more server merges.</blockquote>Uhm... so far as I can tell, nobody in this thread has agreed with you. If a raid has a power drain, a chanter is the best (but not only) way to deal with it. This doesn't make them OP any more then then it makes healers OP because they are the ONLY way to deal with curses that are cure or wipe. People try to recruit them for raids because they are USEFUL, but not necessary. The reason people are 'always looking for them', is because relatively few people play them. If they were overpowered, everybody would be playing them, as happens with most other classes that are overpowered... there end up being too many, not too few of them. You reject my anology with healers (and tanks), but the logic is the same you're using. "Everybody wants them for a group/raid, they must be overpowered!" They are under-played, not overpowered.Multiple people agree that a group and a half of utility is too much and thier buffs should be more widespread then just thier groups.I never suggested nerfing anything. I asked if they needed to be nerfed, which is not a suggestion, its a question. I feel like I have had to say that multiple times now. If you don't want to read the entire thread, then don't bother commenting.I don't think many people believe that a group and a half of utility is a good thing, and I know they don't like constantly being short on them. That is a problem. Even if you think that a group and half is ok, you still have to agree there is a problem with a shortage of them then. Things can be done to counter this, and most people agree that the raid wide buffs would be a good change. Do you disagree? I would love to hear you defend trying to recruit 8 classes that people don't want to play.

tfetterman

05-28-2012, 03:24 AM

This is another one of those posts where someone can't get anyone to play the way they want them to or think the way they do, so it must be someone else's problem and SOE needs to change the game.If no one will group with you, you are either horrible or need to choose another class. Get over it, life is not fair. Move on!

theriatis

05-28-2012, 04:55 AM

Hi. Leave the Buffs to the Buff Classes and the DPS to the DPS Classes and nobody gets hurt. If i want to play a class which buffs everyone else, i will do so. If i want to play a class which does only DPS and relies on Buff classes, i will do so. Don't mix 'em and no nerfs are needed. Regards, theriatis. (This is also true for tanks and healers. If i want to play...)

Equilibrium

05-28-2012, 06:09 AM

<cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is another one of those posts where someone can't get anyone to play the way they want them to or think the way they do, so it must be someone else's problem and SOE needs to change the game.If no one will group with you, you are either horrible or need to choose another class. Get over it, life is not fair. Move on!</blockquote>This person thinks that a group and a half of utility is good design. That pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said about you.

theriatis

05-28-2012, 07:44 AM

Hi again, the Problem is truly, that most of the people don't want to play them and there is a shortage of them. So the Problem is either a) nerf the hell out of them because they are so desired (which is, IMHO, wrong and would let to much more shortage of them) or b) make them in a way that more people want to play them - how you can achieve that without overpowering them (ungodly DPS, more than a DPS-only class, would be that) or making them powered in a way that no one wants to go without them - is beyond my thinking capabilities. The Problem lies also in the zone-designs. An Example ? Drunder 2 EM (as this zone wasn't nerfed and was actual content). I was there in a "perfect" group. Paladin, Troubadour, Illusionist, Inquisitor, Elementalist (or is it called Conjurer ?), Wizard. Even with Ry'Gorr and a little bit EM Raidgear from the Kael Zones we literally blasted through all the Drunder zones. Then i went there with pickups. Sometimes near that Setting, sometimes far away. I remember being in a real good group, with competent, good geared people - and the Group setup was just wrong. We eventually gave up. This is a perfect example on how you can, even with good People, just suck. Badly. Like, Support for Melees and no Melee in the Group (except for the tank) or vice versa. Anyway. The Question is: How can SOE Make Bard/Chanter classes more wanted, without overpowering them and needed on just every occasion ? Regards, theriatis. (I tend to feed my Rattonga Troub some Cheese before every Raid. This has worked pretty well so far, he's still with us <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> )

DamselInDistress

05-28-2012, 08:55 AM

I am wondering if the OP is aware this is EQ2 and that we don't have just tanks / healers / dps. We actually have support classes.It looks like the poor boy is upset no one wants him in groups / raids and he thought he might get a shot if he ruins 25% of the classes who stand in his precious way. Well tough dude, it ain't going to happen.If anything, some of the support classes should be buffed a bit so people do want to play them.

Caethre

05-28-2012, 10:38 AM

(( Bards/Chanters are over-desired compared to how many classes there are. For anyone to deny this, I challenge you to look in public channels, any time, any day, and see what classes GROUPS, RAIDS ansd GUILDS are all screaming for:Bards and Chanters.We all know this is true, so to those saying otherwise, stop lieing, everyone knows what the most desired classes are. They are over-desired because the benefits that they bring are too great to be ignored. Let us consider the single group scenario. This issue about "raid wide" buffs is only relevant to raids, the issue would still remain in groups anyway.A six man group without a bard or chanter is a lot weaker for not having them. The essential problem is two things:(1) The utility abilities of bards/chanters are just a bit "too" strong. When not present in groups, those groups are significantly weaker. Therefore, people will stand around for hours shouting for that bard or chanter for any content that is challenging, to succeed, rather than go without and fail. (2) The perception of (1) above is exaggerated in the minds of some players, such that even for content where they are not required (but make things easier), groups will insist on having them anyway. I watch channels daily, groups really do stand for ages shouting for these specific classes. For hours sometimes.Those people talking about chanters/bard being UNDER powered are nothing short of crazy. If they had even more power, no-one would ever form a group without one at all. And since they are only 4 out of 25 classes and are occupying two slots out of six, that would be madness.So the OP has some valid points. Bard and chanter UTILITY abilities are just a little bit too strong, and it makes them over-desired.The solution, ah, now that's hard to define. Nerfing is bad. Probably the SOE answer would not be to give weaker watered down versions of some bard abilities to other classes, so that the impact of a missing dirge or coercer or such on a six-man group is not so brutal. ))

DamselInDistress

05-28-2012, 11:01 AM

So your idea is to make all classes the same, taking away their unique capabilities. Flash news , this is a MMO, classes with various abilities come and play together.Nothing forces you to bring utility anywhere, you're free to form your group however you see fit, heck you can go with 5 guardians and a fury if that's what you want.Stop trying to impose whatever you think it's fair on someone else. Just so you know, those people who wait for specific classes, will do very specific content and if the support classes were not available they would still not take you.There's enough room for all archetype and people like to be able to have choices.

Loldawg

05-28-2012, 11:28 AM

Give bards and chanters something that allows them to be noticed and praised. VC for bards is a good start, chanters should get a similar ability. Right now, healers are easily outparsing bards / chanters. This makes these utility classes even less fun to play. They need a little boost to their DPS. The primary reason its not fun to play these classes is because they show up so low on the parse...

Caethre

05-28-2012, 12:25 PM

<cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your idea is to make all classes the same, taking away their unique capabilities. Flash news , this is a MMO, classes with various abilities come and play together.Nothing forces you to bring utility anywhere, you're free to form your group however you see fit, heck you can go with 5 guardians and a fury if that's what you want.Stop trying to impose whatever you think it's fair on someone else. Just so you know, those people who wait for specific classes, will do very specific content and if the support classes were not available they would still not take you.There's enough room for all archetype and people like to be able to have choices.</blockquote>(( That is a "straw man argument" as a response. Look it up if you do not know what that means. Nothing needs to be "taken away", but things could be a little more spread out than they are. I am all for choices, but I would prefer choices that are close to equal, not Hobson's Choice, thank you.However, right now (and for a long time, but it has gotten worse over time), 4 of the 25 classes (that's 16% of the classes, if you need the maths done for you) are typically taking 2/6 slots in a group (that's 33% of the slots), and as such, are taking up twice what they should be.The reasons are complex and numerous, but one thing that is quite obvious is that it is imbalanced to such a degree that channels are packed every night, with groups, guilds and raids all screaming for bards and chanters, pleading, begging, crying, and every other kind of emoting. Those two classes are over-desired. That is not a debate, unless you are just closing your eyes and blocking your ears.You may think that's fine. Many of us don't think it is. ))

DamselInDistress

05-28-2012, 01:06 PM

And exactly how do you propose "you spread things a little" ? You want a troub to jcap 3 groups, or a chanter to keep power up in the whole raid, or a dirge to provide his buffs to 2 groups ?I am really curious on this. In my experience raids very rarely have ideal compositions, aka they will roll with 2 chanters and 2 bards cause they can't fill the other spots. Dps are dime a dozen, everyone plays at least a dps class. This is why you see people waiting on support cause they can rarely find any.Perhaps it's time you understand the role of support in groups / raids. A raid waits for one troub so they can build that ideal and illusive mage group, a dirge for the MT group etc. An illu with his time warp will help every group member look good if they know how to play right.Some of the buffs are raid wide already, chanters can help with power issues outside of their group. What exactly are you proposing, because the original idea of the OP is laughable at best ...You talk about having too many support classes in a raid when the reality is that there are not enough players playing those classes. So what exactly is it that you are proposing ?

Morrias

05-28-2012, 01:12 PM

I thought SmokeJumper was going to fix this problem?Seriously didn't he ramble on for like a month about how he was gonna "fix" it so you didn't need chanters / bards as much for anything?Anyways on topic, the game has been like this since TSO, arguably RoK. The only real thing that will change how bards / chanters are desired would be to change how raids and heroic instances are designed. That's a lot of work to just not copy TSO over and over and over and over, at least for SoEs current team. (I haven't played Velious but naturally I assume it's just copy & paste TSO formula just like SF was)

Leawyn

05-28-2012, 01:31 PM

<cite>Morrias@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought SmokeJumper was going to fix this problem?Seriously didn't he ramble on for like a month about how he was gonna "fix" it so you didn't need chanters / bards as much for anything?</blockquote>DUH, he introduced beastlords. Problem solved! Because, lets face it, SJ's idea of solving a problem is putting something on the marketplace (or in the case of BL's, making them the backbone of an "expansion" that had nothing else to really offer).

Caethre

05-28-2012, 01:40 PM

<cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>And exactly how do you propose "you spread things a little" ? You want a troub to jcap 3 groups, or a chanter to keep power up in the whole raid, or a dirge to provide his buffs to 2 groups ?I am really curious on this. In my experience raids very rarely have ideal compositions, aka they will roll with 2 chanters and 2 bards cause they can't fill the other spots. Dps are dime a dozen, everyone plays at least a dps class. This is why you see people waiting on support cause they can rarely find any.Perhaps it's time you understand the role of support in groups / raids. A raid waits for one troub so they can build that ideal and illusive mage group, a dirge for the MT group etc. An illu with his time warp will help every group member look good if they know how to play right.Some of the buffs are raid wide already, chanters can help with power issues outside of their group. What exactly are you proposing, because the original idea of the OP is laughable at best ...You talk about having too many support classes in a raid when the reality is that there are not enough players playing those classes. So what exactly is it that you are proposing ?</blockquote>(( You responded to my post, but you clearly didn't even read it. The clue is in the fact that every one of your sentences talks about raids, and my post was primarily about issues that equally affect six person groups, and was aimed at solving the problem in that setting as a precursor to everything else.The fact remains: Bards and Chanters are over-desired, whether in groups or raids.The answer can only be to make them less desired (but not to go so far as to make them undesired). This could be done by either lowering the power of the very abilities that are making them over-desired, or by giving some waeker versions of those same abilities to other classes. It is not rocket science.You may be happy as it is now, with groups and raids stood around screaming for bards and chanters all the time. But many of us would prefer if those classes were not the difference between success and failure to such an extent than no-one goes anywhere challenging without them. Being a little closer to balance would achieve this.Small changes are all that is needed. Nothing earthshaking. Just inching things a little more towards parity. So less of the overly-melodramatic responses. ))

DamselInDistress

05-28-2012, 02:30 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>And exactly how do you propose "you spread things a little" ? You want a troub to jcap 3 groups, or a chanter to keep power up in the whole raid, or a dirge to provide his buffs to 2 groups ?I am really curious on this. In my experience raids very rarely have ideal compositions, aka they will roll with 2 chanters and 2 bards cause they can't fill the other spots. Dps are dime a dozen, everyone plays at least a dps class. This is why you see people waiting on support cause they can rarely find any.Perhaps it's time you understand the role of support in groups / raids. A raid waits for one troub so they can build that ideal and illusive mage group, a dirge for the MT group etc. An illu with his time warp will help every group member look good if they know how to play right.Some of the buffs are raid wide already, chanters can help with power issues outside of their group. What exactly are you proposing, because the original idea of the OP is laughable at best ...You talk about having too many support classes in a raid when the reality is that there are not enough players playing those classes. So what exactly is it that you are proposing ?</blockquote>(( You responded to my post, but you clearly didn't even read it. The clue is in the fact that every one of your sentences talks about raids, and my post was primarily about issues that equally affect six person groups, and was aimed at solving the problem in that setting as a precursor to everything else.The fact remains: Bards and Chanters are over-desired, whether in groups or raids.The answer can only be to make them less desired (but not to go so far as to make them undesired). This could be done by either lowering the power of the very abilities that are making them over-desired, or by giving some waeker versions of those same abilities to other classes. It is not rocket science.You may be happy as it is now, with groups and raids stood around screaming for bards and chanters all the time. But many of us would prefer if those classes were not the difference between success and failure to such an extent than no-one goes anywhere challenging without them. Being a little closer to balance would achieve this.Small changes are all that is needed. Nothing earthshaking. Just inching things a little more towards parity. So less of the overly-melodramatic responses.&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</blockquote>Awesome, so your answer is still nerf or give their abilities to someone else.I think we've had ppl like you for too long here. The game does not need to cater to you, just as the classes don't need to be the same to please people like you. I am sorry you have issues clicking more than 3 buttons, but deal with it. This is adventuring , not crafting. If you like to level a different profession by clicking the same 3 buttons go ahead but don't try to dumb everything down even more.

Loldawg

05-28-2012, 03:23 PM

Bards and chanters aren't over-desired. They are under-played. Supply is limited because the classes are not fun to play. Make them more fun - i.e. give them more dps - and more people will play. If the idea is to make utility less desirable - then the utility classes need to be given something in return - otherwise there will be no point in the classes at all.

tfetterman

05-28-2012, 04:03 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is another one of those posts where someone can't get anyone to play the way they want them to or think the way they do, so it must be someone else's problem and SOE needs to change the game.If no one will group with you, you are either horrible or need to choose another class. Get over it, life is not fair. Move on!</blockquote>This person thinks that a group and a half of utility is good design. That pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said about you.</blockquote>Ok, so now we start making personal attacks. Who made you the expert at game design? You obviously haven't played much beyond solo or groups. Let's see...what do you need tanks for? Hold the mob and someone to grab the mob if the MT dies? Sometimes the script requires situational additions, but rarely. Healers? How many of them do you need? Our raid runs with 7. That's one less than the utility. Maybe healers are OP too? DPS, well it fills in the gaps. Further, if your utility is any good they can dps. Before you start talking about game design and evaluating other players, realize I'm in the 11th rank guild in the world. Now, do you want to go further because I will be happy to continue evaluating your abilty to know what you are doing!

Fyranaer

05-28-2012, 04:03 PM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Explain to me how shining light on an issue that almost everybody in this thread agrees needs to fixed is trolling? Utility should not be taking up a group and a half. Whether you agreel or not, every raiding guild is always recruiting for them, which means they are saving room for them, which means the raids are not full without them, which means they are essential. Im not surprised you don't grasp the concept, being as how you actually cant tell the games population is struggling without Sony releasing numbers. Everybody else just looks around and figures it out for themselves. Its already time for more server merges.</blockquote>Not everyone in this thread, or the game agrees with you. You don't have some majority opinion.Not once have you explained why other roles should have precedence over utility. Why shouldn't utility take up the slots it does? Oh, because you're not utility and you want that slot. So if DPS took all those slots up would you be here complaining that deeps is OP and needs nerfed? This thread is a silly pointless rant that doesn't address a real problem and doesn't even provide a real solution to an imaginary problem.If this games population is declining it has nothing to do with support classes and their spots in raids. It has everything to do with what content is being developed, who it is targeted towards, how it is gated, SoE's substandard F2P model, and a general decline in the community (it's helpfulness, friendliness, and how it treats other members). I have never talked to any gamer who said they would rather not play EQ2 or think it is poorly designed because they think support takes up too many raid slots.

Caethre

05-28-2012, 06:41 PM

<cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awesome, so your answer is still nerf or give their abilities to someone else.I think we've had ppl like you for too long here. The game does not need to cater to you, just as the classes don't need to be the same to please people like you. I am sorry you have issues clicking more than 3 buttons, but deal with it. This is adventuring , not crafting. If you like to level a different profession by clicking the same 3 buttons go ahead but don't try to dumb everything down even more.</blockquote>(( Yes, that is my answer, it is what I would do were I SOE, and it is what they should do.It is not a matter of making the classes "the same", no-one said that, it's just you and that straw man argument (again), exaggerating to try to make some melodrama. I said, only small adjustments need to be made.The current situation of channels packed every day with GROUPS, RAIDS and GUILDS all screaming for the same two classes, groups stood around waiting for those classes to log in or become available, should not be allowed to continue, it is harming the game.Whether you want to make personal attacks on me or other posters because we are pointing out the obvious, for your own selfish reasons, is irrelevant.Bards and chanters are over-desired right now, and a correction, a small correction most likely, needs to be made in some way or other to reduce that excessive over-desirability, in my opinion. ))

Kellean

05-28-2012, 06:44 PM

didnt read the whole thread,so please excuse me ,if im writing something that someone else already did <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />i am a support/healing class player and believe me that can be really frustrating. my coercer for instance can do really a lot to support a group (energy ,(de)aggro, healing enhancing ,crowd control and power ups .. some classes can do even more and better.sounds interesting,but can be really boring,because dps is king of eq2. thats the main reason why everyone is looking for bards and chanters. they want to push up the damage output.without those classes they might be forced to really play the game ,and not bomb the whole dungeon in 10 minutes.so the reason why almost everyone is looking for those classes ,not because they are op ,but because they shorten the dungeon runs extremly...would work without a bard too (the only thing you need for all playstyles is energy supply)but this maybe a chance for the threadstarter ....just level up a support class ,and you are in heaven (unless soe changes everything again *eg*)

Fyranaer

05-28-2012, 07:02 PM

It would be better if every class had multiple roles it could fulfill. They might not fulfill them as good as a primary support/dps/heal/tank class, but could fill a slot and lessen the overall need for a primary role class to fulfill that.However, a large part of the problem lies with the player base and the rigid way we approach content. Even if players had the option or if support was nerfed another "problem" would rear its ugly head because we're rigid and won't adjust. For example last night a group was looking for a healer (for quite a while) for SS, only they wanted a non-druid healer. When we get very picky and choosey (ie: rigid) then we're going to run into these sorts of problems.

ranga

05-28-2012, 08:18 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>And exactly how do you propose "you spread things a little" ? You want a troub to jcap 3 groups, or a chanter to keep power up in the whole raid, or a dirge to provide his buffs to 2 groups ?I am really curious on this. In my experience raids very rarely have ideal compositions, aka they will roll with 2 chanters and 2 bards cause they can't fill the other spots. Dps are dime a dozen, everyone plays at least a dps class. This is why you see people waiting on support cause they can rarely find any.Perhaps it's time you understand the role of support in groups / raids. A raid waits for one troub so they can build that ideal and illusive mage group, a dirge for the MT group etc. An illu with his time warp will help every group member look good if they know how to play right.Some of the buffs are raid wide already, chanters can help with power issues outside of their group. What exactly are you proposing, because the original idea of the OP is laughable at best ...You talk about having too many support classes in a raid when the reality is that there are not enough players playing those classes. So what exactly is it that you are proposing ?</blockquote>(( You responded to my post, but you clearly didn't even read it. The clue is in the fact that every one of your sentences talks about raids, and my post was primarily about issues that equally affect six person groups, and was aimed at solving the problem in that setting as a precursor to everything else.The fact remains: Bards and Chanters are over-desired, whether in groups or raids.The answer can only be to make them less desired (but not to go so far as to make them undesired). This could be done by either lowering the power of the very abilities that are making them over-desired, or by giving some waeker versions of those same abilities to other classes. It is not rocket science.You may be happy as it is now, with groups and raids stood around screaming for bards and chanters all the time. But many of us would prefer if those classes were not the difference between success and failure to such an extent than no-one goes anywhere challenging without them. Being a little closer to balance would achieve this.Small changes are all that is needed. Nothing earthshaking. Just inching things a little more towards parity. So less of the overly-melodramatic responses.&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</blockquote>Parity would be to give something back to bards and chanters. What do you suggest?You state "The answer can only be to make them less desired". How short sighted is that? Other people have already suggested that to make them more desirable to play should be the way to go but you appear to have ignored that.Giving weaker version of bard/chanter abilities would render them redundant mainly because when faced with the choice of nerfed bard/chanters or 6 non bard/chanters with all their class attributes PLUS far greater DPS groups AND regen etc. would rarely want bards or chanters. Perhaps that what you people are after lol remove them altogether and share out their good stuff.This really is the thin end of the wedge with the thick end as I have already stated being everyone become a BL.

Novusod

05-28-2012, 08:54 PM

The over desirability of Bards and Chanters has been a long standing issue with EQ2 class ballance. There was actually supposed to be a Bard Revamp done in early Sentinel's Fate but it was canceled.There we some very interesting discussions made at the time and conclusions that were made was not that bards would get nerfed but the Bards should get buffed. The list of things that needed to happen were:- ALL bard group buffs become raid wide- Battle Cry / Upbeat Tempo can be cast on multiple targets with a concentration slot- Dirge Hate for tanks can be cast on multiple targets and no longer requires a concentration slotEnchanter revamp would work the same way.- All enchanter group buffs become raid wide- Time warp and PoM would become raid wide- EV would no longer require a concentration slotIf this went through raids would no longer need multiple dirges/coerces/illy to build an ideal raid. For some reason the revamp was scraped though.

Lemilla

05-29-2012, 07:33 AM

To be honest, the problem is not just that raids require 4 bards or 4 chanters. It's that groups 'require' both a bard and chanter. Making groupbuffs raidwide may help a bit on the raid level, but won't do anything for heroics. Making single target buffs groupwide will make the problem worse for heriocs.The solution should be in reducing the synergy between bards and chanters. Increase the strength of most buffs (thus making bards and chanters more desirable to play) while making them not stack between bards and chanters. So a single bard or chanter would give about the same utility to a group that you now get for bringing both. But bringing both a bard and chanter in the same group would give almost no extra utility over just bringing a bard or chanter.

DamselInDistress

05-29-2012, 09:10 AM

<cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest, the problem is not just that raids require 4 bards or 4 chanters. It's that groups 'require' both a bard and chanter. Making groupbuffs raidwide may help a bit on the raid level, but won't do anything for heroics. Making single target buffs groupwide will make the problem worse for heriocs.The solution should be in reducing the synergy between bards and chanters. Increase the strength of most buffs (thus making bards and chanters more desirable to play) while making them not stack between bards and chanters. So a single bard or chanter would give about the same utility to a group that you now get for bringing both. But bringing both a bard and chanter in the same group would give almost no extra utility over just bringing a bard or chanter.</blockquote>aha, so there's no difference betwen bards and chanters making them pretty much the same even though they're different archetypes. Awesome and well thought mate.I have another suggestions .. how about you pick one healer class, make it twice as strong so raids don't need more than 2 healers overall. Even better consolidate all classes into one which can do everything on its own. There's plenty of room then to please these awesome think tanks.

Lemilla

05-29-2012, 09:26 AM

Buffs not stacking does not mean they are the same.As an example:Rapidity (illy attack speed and MA buff), Velocity (coercer dps buff), Allegretto (trouby attack speed buff) and Riana's Relentless Tune (dirge dps buff) could all be buffed up ~80-100% but made to not stack with each other. It would keep the four classes just as different from each other as they are now, making each individual class stronger, while reducing the benefits of bringing both a bard and chanter in a group.

Koleg

05-29-2012, 11:44 AM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awesome, so your answer is still nerf or give their abilities to someone else.I think we've had ppl like you for too long here. The game does not need to cater to you, just as the classes don't need to be the same to please people like you. I am sorry you have issues clicking more than 3 buttons, but deal with it. This is adventuring , not crafting. If you like to level a different profession by clicking the same 3 buttons go ahead but don't try to dumb everything down even more.</blockquote>(( Yes, that is my answer, it is what I would do were I SOE, and it is what they should do.It is not a matter of making the classes "the same", no-one said that, it's just you and that straw man argument (again), exaggerating to try to make some melodrama. I said, only small adjustments need to be made.The current situation of channels packed every day with GROUPS, RAIDS and GUILDS all screaming for the same two classes, groups stood around waiting for those classes to log in or become available, should not be allowed to continue, it is harming the game.Whether you want to make personal attacks on me or other posters because we are pointing out the obvious, for your own selfish reasons, is irrelevant.Bards and chanters are over-desired right now, and a correction, a small correction most likely, needs to be made in some way or other to reduce that excessive over-desirability, in my opinion. ))</blockquote>Bards and Chanters are less desireable than Tanks and Healers ... so your opinion is that Tanks and Healers should be nerfed as well. That leaves only DPS classes that are not broken, in your opinion, right? I'd like to see how far you'd get without Tanks, Healers, Bards or Chanters.If you want Chanters and bards nerfed, all that would need to happen is foe SOE to eliminate Power Darins, Mem-wipes and fix fighter aggro. They could also lower DPS by 30% - 40% to solve the issue as well.

DamselInDistress

05-29-2012, 12:18 PM

<cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Buffs not stacking does not mean they are the same.As an example:Rapidity (illy attack speed and MA buff), Velocity (coercer dps buff), Allegretto (trouby attack speed buff) and Riana's Relentless Tune (dirge dps buff) could all be buffed up ~80-100% but made to not stack with each other. It would keep the four classes just as different from each other as they are now, making each individual class stronger, while reducing the benefits of bringing both a bard and chanter in a group.</blockquote>You make no sense, you give an example of a buff from troub vs one from dirge then say if you buff that up and make it not stack, there's no benefit if you bring both a bard and a chanter ...Bards are not the same as chanters, nor should they be since they're different classes, not even remotely connected. They all come under support but that role is extremely different and as such you cannot reduce the benefit of having both in a group.Even if you compare troub vs dirge they are very different and buff different archetypes, plus play somewhat differently.Come back when you start to make sense.

Rijacki

05-29-2012, 12:29 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The current situation of channels packed every day with GROUPS, RAIDS and GUILDS all screaming for the same two classes, groups stood around waiting for those classes to log in or become available, should not be allowed to continue, it is harming the game.</blockquote>Groups and raids like to have an easy success vs a challenging one. Bards and chanters (4 classes total: dirge, troubie, illy, and coercer) aren't the difference between success and failure alone. Without either, it's quite possible to have a group for a dungeon succeed but it might be more challenge and the group might need to take on a slightly less difficult target or pull a bit more carefully.It's also possible to do dungeons and other such content without 2 healers in the group, but I hear groups all the time requiring 2 healers. You don't have to be as careful if you have 2 healers. It's more challenging to have 1 healer.It's the same with gear. It's possible to do content, to do heroic instances without having raid gear, but you might have to match the instance to the gear you have aequipped and pull a bit more carefully.The only way you can have groups not stand around waiting for [classes] or character equipped with [gear] is to force players into groups and then transport them to thus and so location, appropriate for their level/gear, and then not allow them to leave until they complete the content there.If bards and chanters were nerfed more than they have been (their DPS has been slashed multiple times) or their desirable buffs and utilies were given in lesser forms to other classes (actually many of them have been, and not just to beastlords) but bards and chanters retained any buffs/utilities slightly higher than any other class, for the content that's made easier by having those buffs or utilities there would still be groups standing around crying that they need bards and chanters before they could go on.My primary adventuring character is a coercer, but I also play a wizard at "end game" and have been brining by dirge back up to level (haven't seriously played her since pre-RoK). As my wizard I have been in groups without either a bard or chanter and even without raid gear for most of the group and we were successful because we actually rose to the challenge and played with our brains instead of just facerolling the keyboard.I watch the parse while raiding on my coercer and, yes, it is seriously depressing how far back on the parse I've gotten only because of what classes are now easily higher on the parse. Healers bring as much or maybe even more utility than the 'utility' classes of bard and chanter but some easily dps more than bards or chanters. Reducing the dps of bards and chanters was done in the name of 'balance' citing their utilities as the reason they shouldn't dps more, to make them less overly desired. It didn't help reduce their desirabilty by those wanting an easy button, but it did make them less desirable to play on their own.EQ2 has become mostly a solo game for leveling. Soloing a bard to level in the days of DoF, KoS, and EoF wasn't fun. It was one of the reasons I stopped keeping my bard up to level when I started playing coercer (plus burn out). After the last bard nerf to non-utility abilities, it made it even less fun to solo a bard. I've only been leveling at all on her now because I've been grouping with her with my boyfriend and friends. If I had to go back to strictly soloing with her, I wouldn't bother.

Yimway

05-29-2012, 12:38 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>- ALL bard group buffs become raid wide- Battle Cry / Upbeat Tempo can be cast on multiple targets with a concentration slot- Dirge Hate for tanks can be cast on multiple targets and no longer requires a concentration slotEnchanter revamp would work the same way.- All enchanter group buffs become raid wide- Time warp and PoM would become raid wide- EV would no longer require a concentration slotIf this went through raids would no longer need multiple dirges/coerces/illy to build an ideal raid. For some reason the revamp was scraped though.</blockquote>It died for two reasons.1) The dev in charge didn't agree with all your bullet points.2) It was realized improvements to the ui and underlaying game engine would be required to deliver an interface that made since to accomplish these things. IE, it required significantly more resources than were available in that Beta to accomplish.Since then the idea was dropped and we've heard no more about it. We've been thru 3 or 4 producers since then and clearly addressing the issue of the best raid builds carrying 8 utlitiy classes hasn't been a large enough issue to find the resources necesary to make that change.I think there is enough on their plates already that is flat broken and needs fixing before they could ever think about re-designing these classes or the mechanics of the game to lower the number of utilty classes desired.

Neskonlith

05-29-2012, 02:40 PM

<cite>Loldawg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and chanters aren't over-desired. They are under-played. Supply is limited because the classes are not fun to play. Make them more fun - i.e. give them more dps - and more people will play. If the idea is to make utility less desirable - then the utility classes need to be given something in return - otherwise there will be no point in the classes at all. </blockquote>The dirge nerf resulting in ~33% dps reduction just before releasing Beastlords was for the greater good of the game.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Lemilla

05-29-2012, 04:39 PM

<cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Buffs not stacking does not mean they are the same.As an example:Rapidity (illy attack speed and MA buff), Velocity (coercer dps buff), Allegretto (trouby attack speed buff) and Riana's Relentless Tune (dirge dps buff) could all be buffed up ~80-100% but made to not stack with each other. It would keep the four classes just as different from each other as they are now, making each individual class stronger, while reducing the benefits of bringing both a bard and chanter in a group.</blockquote>You make no sense, you give an example of a buff from troub vs one from dirge then say if you buff that up and make it not stack, there's no benefit if you bring both a bard and a chanter ...Bards are not the same as chanters, nor should they be since they're different classes, not even remotely connected. They all come under support but that role is extremely different and as such you cannot reduce the benefit of having both in a group.Even if you compare troub vs dirge they are very different and buff different archetypes, plus play somewhat differently.Come back when you start to make sense.</blockquote>Try reading, it tends to help. That example listed buffs of 4 classes, which you seem to have missed.

Caethre

05-29-2012, 07:14 PM

<cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are less desireable than Tanks and Healers ...</blockquote>(( Heroic groups almost always want one tank and one healer ... duh obvious... but that's only 2 slots taken up between 12 classes, so relatively easy to get, because noone usually cares which tank class and which healer class, and there are SIX classes of each to choose from.But when was the last time you saw a heroic group screaming for a SECOND tank? Huh?By contrast, almost every challenging group one ever sees demands both a bard *and* a chanter. Have you understood, thats 2 slots taken up by only 4 classes?And when a group cannot get *both* a chanter and a bard, many groups will not move until they get them, will swap to alts to get them, will beg and threaten guildies or friends, to get them, will stand around screaming in channels until they get them.Have you not seen that? Because the rest of the playerbase has!But sure, keep on saying Tanks are more desired than Utility classes, and pretending that no group will move until it gets both a Brawler and a Crusader. See how far you get with that comparison. ))

DiasTheLion

05-29-2012, 10:42 PM

If a raid "needs" as many as 8 utility classes, calling for a nerf would be the opposite of what should happen.If they need 8 of them, then these classes need boost, and a lot of it.I have a troub and a coercer, and i hate playing both. If they got nerfed i wouldn't play either one at all.

Haapy

05-30-2012, 12:17 AM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are less desireable than Tanks and Healers ...</blockquote>(( Heroic groups almost always want one tank and one healer ... duh obvious... but that's only 2 slots taken up between 12 classes, so relatively easy to get, because noone usually cares which tank class and which healer class, and there are SIX classes of each to choose from.But when was the last time you saw a heroic group screaming for a SECOND tank? Huh?By contrast, almost every challenging group one ever sees demands both a bard *and* a chanter. Have you understood, thats 2 slots taken up by only 4 classes?And when a group cannot get *both* a chanter and a bard, many groups will not move until they get them, will swap to alts to get them, will beg and threaten guildies or friends, to get them, will stand around screaming in channels until they get them.Have you not seen that? Because the rest of the playerbase has!But sure, keep on saying Tanks are more desired than Utility classes, and pretending that no group will move until it gets both a Brawler and a Crusader. See how far you get with that comparison. ))</blockquote>Stop playing with people that are bad. If I join a group on my dirge or illy and they sit around waiting for another support, we either zoning in right now, or I am leaving them (and now they will be short both utilities). Stop pandering to that way of thinking. Btw, nice dodge on the fact that TONS of groups sit around asking for 2nd healer before moving.

Amarillan

05-30-2012, 03:59 AM

<cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detriment@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I stated that bards and chanters are OP, and you said "see what it feels like theres none left", which confirms my point. Are you really not seeing this, or are you messing with me? Oh I get it, when you said "the reality is a bit different", you meant you were just trolling me. I see now. OK then yeah you win. I bit and thought that you might be actually trying to make sense or something lol. Silly me.Raidwide buffs would certainly make a big difference. Are there any guilds that are not currently looking for more bards and/or chanters? That simple question alone should be evidence that they need some re-work. This game has far too few players to syphon so many people into being forced to play utility. That is what most of them are, forced.</blockquote>Until this post, you didn't say they were overpowered, you said that 'everybody wanted one in their group'. Everybody wants a healer in their group too.. ut oh, time to nerf healers! So goes your logic.</blockquote>Are you serious? I even wrote in my initial post about the good old days when all you would have to wait for in heroic groups was a tank and healer. Yeah, I even said HEALERS, yet you still compare what im saying about utility to healers. You did that, in a very pooly thought out analogy. Crazy</blockquote>So you are saying that in the good old days tanks and healers were OPed, because everyone was looking for them.And now a days since everyone is looking for Bards/Chanters, they are the ones OPed?I mean you can not say one with out the other. If demand is what equals OP, then it must apply across the table.People want the classes because their buffs are not raid wide, so in order to get said buffs you want one for each group. Make the buffs raid wide and your silly problem is gone.</blockquote>Right, its just my silly problem, not every single guilld that is constantly looking for more. Stop with the stupid tank/healer analogies. I would of named the thread "Do tanks and healers need to be nerfed" if I thought there was an issue with them. But I didn't, so try to keep up with what threads are about and don't try to derail them with poorly thought out and executed analogies.Not every guild is recruiting for healers/tanks, but every guild is recruiting for bards/chanters. How many times do I have to say this?</blockquote>Mayhem isn't! We have enough bards and chanters thx! ((As of May 29th))

DiaBC

05-30-2012, 07:53 AM

If grp for heroic is looking for 2nd healer..I'm not joining that grp..<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kazoth

05-30-2012, 11:12 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>The over desirability of Bards and Chanters has been a long standing issue with EQ2 class ballance. There was actually supposed to be a Bard Revamp done in early Sentinel's Fate but it was canceled.There we some very interesting discussions made at the time and conclusions that were made was not that bards would get nerfed but the Bards should get buffed. The list of things that needed to happen were:- ALL bard group buffs become raid wide- Battle Cry / Upbeat Tempo can be cast on multiple targets with a concentration slot- Dirge Hate for tanks can be cast on multiple targets and no longer requires a concentration slotEnchanter revamp would work the same way.- All enchanter group buffs become raid wide- Time warp and PoM would become raid wide- EV would no longer require a concentration slotIf this went through raids would no longer need multiple dirges/coerces/illy to build an ideal raid. For some reason the revamp was scraped though.</blockquote>This is not actually a buff to bards. Its like saying it would be a buff to bards to be able to buff a raid from the guild hall outside of the raid force.. What is really needed is going back to EQ1 style where it wasn't just about DPS/Heals. We need more meaning of debuffs/slows and buffs, both in raids and group content

Mermut

05-30-2012, 11:41 AM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards and Chanters are less desireable than Tanks and Healers ...</blockquote>(( Heroic groups almost always want one tank and one healer ... duh obvious... but that's only 2 slots taken up between 12 classes, so relatively easy to get, because noone usually cares which tank class and which healer class, and there are SIX classes of each to choose from.But when was the last time you saw a heroic group screaming for a SECOND tank? Huh?By contrast, almost every challenging group one ever sees demands both a bard *and* a chanter. Have you understood, thats 2 slots taken up by only 4 classes?And when a group cannot get *both* a chanter and a bard, many groups will not move until they get them, will swap to alts to get them, will beg and threaten guildies or friends, to get them, will stand around screaming in channels until they get them.Have you not seen that? Because the rest of the playerbase has!But sure, keep on saying Tanks are more desired than Utility classes, and pretending that no group will move until it gets both a Brawler and a Crusader. See how far you get with that comparison. ))</blockquote>I have never been in a group that has demanded a bard and a chanter or it would just sit around. Your experience is not universal.