Gear separation logic..please explain

[Twinbladed]

<p>You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea. How will that make pvp any better? Everyone will need higher mitigation, a lot of hit points, and way higher resist, and that probably still wouldn't make a difference. The pvp check box does not fix blue stats, if someone auto attacks you 6 or 7 times in a row then flurry's 70% of the time with insane crit bonus and stats behind it, how does that make pvp better than right now? People can hit over millions now in game, how do you expect to be able to take those kinds of hits, your not raid mobs. The pvp check box isn't going to fix that. You say this idea but fail to add how it would work, and another issue even if they messed with the stats and changed it all around to work semi on the level of players, that doesn't changed the fact that gear will still be the deciding factor to a victory. This is what soe does, they look at the one things you complain about he most and it fix it, but they don't ever look at the whole entire probem. They don't look at aa's, they don't look at strength verse weakness of a class, they don't measure damage coming in verse damage going out, they don't check heals, they don't check control effects, procs, or timers. They don't give out rewards for actually being winners that players like to have, no eye candy nothing is appealing. So how is a simple gear switch going to solve pvp?</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Simple.</p><p>Don't Allow Flurrys/Spell Doublecasts to hit a Player.</p><p>Don't Allow Burn Spells on Players.</p><p>Cap Ranged Multiattacks for 300% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Melee Multiattacks at 400% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Potency for 150% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Critical Bonus for 150% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap the Amount of Block Chance/Avoidance against other Players. (Brawlers should not have Physical Immunity.)</p><p>Remove all things changed from spells in PvP.</p><p>Add a Bolster Buff that reduces Critical Damage/Damage Against a Player, this buff gets stronger depending on your level.</p><p>Add a Resolve bar against players that reduce the amount of stuns/mezes/roots/snares you can pin on someone at one time.</p><p>Remove Toughness, the Bolster Buff should be enough, and everyone should have the same Critical Mitigation/Toughness if they are the same level.</p><p>Also:</p><p>Bring a Tank along, I hear they can absorb damage better then an assassin can.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea. How will that make pvp any better? Everyone will need higher mitigation, a lot of hit points, and way higher resist, and that probably still wouldn't make a difference. The pvp check box does not fix blue stats, if someone auto attacks you 6 or 7 times in a row then flurry's 70% of the time with insane crit bonus and stats behind it, how does that make pvp better than right now? People can hit over millions now in game, how do you expect to be able to take those kinds of hits, your not raid mobs. The pvp check box isn't going to fix that. You say this idea but fail to add how it would work, and another issue even if they messed with the stats and changed it all around to work semi on the level of players, that doesn't changed the fact that gear will still be the deciding factor to a victory. This is what soe does, they look at the one things you complain about he most and it fix it, but they don't ever look at the whole entire probem. They don't look at aa's, they don't look at strength verse weakness of a class, they don't measure damage coming in verse damage going out, they don't check heals, they don't check control effects, procs, or timers. They don't give out rewards for actually being winners that players like to have, no eye candy nothing is appealing. So how is a simple gear switch going to solve pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Simple. Use the pvp check box, that's why it's there. If it doesn't affect blue stats, that needs to be fixed... and tbh I'm no eq2 developer (shocking), but I would think it would be way easier to do that than to create a whole new system of seperation like they did or implementing talathion's abomination of an idea.</p><p>But all of this is a waste of time, I think it's pretty evident that pvp is what it is, so take it or leave it. It's not going to change or get better or get fixed. There will be no rise back to glory for eq2 pvp. It's going to get worse and worse and worse as the game evolves and pvp is neglected and left in the dust.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Also:</p><p>Allow Spellcasters/Healers to cast while moving. (with above penaltys.)</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also:</p><p>Allow Spellcasters/Healers to cast while moving. (with above penaltys.)</p></blockquote><p>wow, one idea is worse than the next with you</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Simple.</p><p>Don't Allow Flurrys/Spell Doublecasts to hit a Player.</p><p>Don't Allow Burn Spells on Players.</p><p>Cap Ranged Multiattacks for 300% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Melee Multiattacks at 400% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Potency for 150% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Critical Bonus for 150% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap the Amount of Block Chance/Avoidance against other Players. (Brawlers should not have Physical Immunity.)</p><p>Remove all things changed from spells in PvP.</p><p>Add a Bolster Buff that reduces Critical Damage/Damage Against a Player, this buff gets stronger depending on your level.</p><p>Add a Resolve bar against players that reduce the amount of stuns/mezes/roots/snares you can pin on someone at one time.</p><p>Remove Toughness, the Bolster Buff should be enough, and everyone should have the same Critical Mitigation/Toughness if they are the same level.</p><p>Also:</p><p>Bring a Tank along, I hear they can absorb damage better then an assassin can.</p></blockquote><p>Those stats are still way over powered people with 200 ma smoke other players with auto attacks, so to keep them at 3 to 400 is still insane..</p><p>bring a tank lol, I don't worry about dieing in pvp, I don't like the fact of how fast people get killed, it's re-tarded, send out a bow auto attack either kill someone or get them way down on health without even hitting a ca, but like the other guy said they probably will never change any of it, as I said before to respond the other guy sony never has looked into pvp as a whole, so to throw idea that it's just gear and has 0 to do with aa's,temp spells, etc.. would make no difference when your still putting a boost on those same stats in a different form. I don't thik they will do anything about just don't see the logic behind this switch gear back everything will be ok idea, in sf you were killing people with way less gear pretty fast, now look at the jump of things the reduction would have to me massive, yet again I say even if it ever happen he who has the best gear will be the victor.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Simple.</p><p>Don't Allow Flurrys/Spell Doublecasts to hit a Player.</p><p>Don't Allow Burn Spells on Players.</p><p>Cap Ranged Multiattacks for 300% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Melee Multiattacks at 400% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Potency for 150% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap Critical Bonus for 150% Against a Player.</p><p>Cap the Amount of Block Chance/Avoidance against other Players. (Brawlers should not have Physical Immunity.)</p><p>Remove all things changed from spells in PvP.</p><p>Add a Bolster Buff that reduces Critical Damage/Damage Against a Player, this buff gets stronger depending on your level.</p><p>Add a Resolve bar against players that reduce the amount of stuns/mezes/roots/snares you can pin on someone at one time.</p><p>Remove Toughness, the Bolster Buff should be enough, and everyone should have the same Critical Mitigation/Toughness if they are the same level.</p><p>Also:</p><p>Bring a Tank along, I hear they can absorb damage better then an assassin can.</p></blockquote><p>Those stats are still way over powered people with 200 ma smoke other players with auto attacks, so to keep them at 3 to 400 is still insane..</p><p>bring a tank lol, I don't worry about dieing in pvp, I don't like the fact of how fast people get killed, it's re-tarded, send out a bow auto attack either kill someone or get them way down on health without even hitting a ca, but like the other guy said they probably will never change any of it, as I said before to respond the other guy sony never has looked into pvp as a whole, so to throw idea that it's just gear and has 0 to do with aa's,temp spells, etc.. would make no difference when your still putting a boost on those same stats in a different form. I don't thik they will do anything about just don't see the logic behind this switch gear back everything will be ok idea, in sf you were killing people with way less gear pretty fast, now look at the jump of things the reduction would have to me massive, yet again I say even if it ever happen he who has the best gear will be the victor.</p></blockquote><p>We had lots of Multiattack in SF, it wasn't that bad. </p><p>Now we have almost 5 times the health, more mitigation, more damage reduction, way more healing.</p><p>Capping it at 400 would only increase it so much since every attack still is decreased and healed by all these modifiers.</p><p>I like how you "only" listed whats wrong with my idea instead of whats right, it seems your just negative about it and won't even accept that my idea is good.</p><p>Have you ever dueled before? I have had duels that lasted over 17-45 minutes because we COULD not kill eachother...</p><p>Oh, and all PVE Stats work in Duels. (600 MA/CB/Potency, Ect.)</p><p>Of course, thats just Tank on Tank, Tank on Healer is alot different, healers actually have disadvantages.</p><p>If they undid the taunt nerf/spell nerfs and Undid the DPS nerfs.  It would probably be fine, and funner then ever.</p><p>THIS GAME WAS NOT DESIGNED AROUND PVP... but its a fun unbalanced pvp game when you combine groups of classes together.</p><p>Imagine a duel with:</p><p>SK/Defiler/Illusionist/Troubador/Warlock/Fury (Prepassive Taunt Nerf.)</p><p>vs</p><p>Zerk/Mystic/Coercer/Dirge/Assassin/Warden (Prepassive Taunt Nerf.)</p><p>They would pretty much have to kill the Tank first before you killed the rest of the group. but that was the fun part of EQ2, because the fight felt like an actual encounter instead of FACEROLL and took strategy.</p><p>One of the reasons damage seems rediculous in pvp with 600 MA, is because healing is so limited, if wards/heals/ward procs were not limited and reduced, this damage would NOT be a problem.</p><p>Now... What seems more fun?</p><p>Faceroll, or Strategy?</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p>Ok, before I even decide to respond to what you just wrote please answer this...</p><p>What class do you play on nagafen?</p><p>How long have you been pvping?</p><p>Nevermind I just read into everything you said better, you are pve, talking about pvp, put a pally in rygor gear against one in pow gear let me know how it turns out, case closed</p><p>If you answer you play on a blue server, and think duels and open world pvp are the same I am not going to sit here and explain the math in this. Bg's don't even apply to the same rule set much less duels. Plus duels are all about gear, there is not one thing even remotely balanced in a duel.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Read your title, that has nothing to do with your title.</p><p>You asked for your opinion on gear separation and to "explain why it would work".</p><p>I gave me clear mechanical reasons why it does not work and why gear being the same does with buffs.</p><p>"<span style="background-color: #221f1c; color: #d2c5a9; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea"</span></p><p>I did the math, and gave you my views on the idea.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Read your title, that has nothing to do with your title.</p><p>You asked for your opinion on gear separation and to "explain why it would work".</p><p> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">I gave me clear mechanical reasons why it does not work and why gear <em>being the same does with buffs. </em></span></p><p>"<span style="background-color: #221f1c; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: #d2c5a9;">You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea"</span> </p><p>I did the math, and gave you my views on the idea.</p></blockquote><p>Talathion,</p><p>This underlies your current inability to grasp the dynamics of pvp/e.  You are working from a pve mindframe where both opposing duelists and/or groups are standing inside a pretty little circle waiting on a timer to count down so you can be fully buffed/temped and awaiting the officials "GO."</p><p>This is not how pvp works. You provided no math just alot of assumptions. In the "real world" of pvp, hereinafter Nagafen, you need to understand there are no pretty little circles with count downs.  You must be prepared at all times to fight your enemy AND the mob(s) yu are fighting.  On Nagafen 600+ MA and massive flurry is a one shot auto attack death sentence from the combined pve procs and auto attack damage REGARDLESS of your current mitigation values if a PVE rule set existed.</p><p>Per my other post in the other thread - it is NOT gear which really must be seperated it is the blue stats which have been added that really need to be factored out and/or toned down.  This is why the TSO model was really superior to anything we have now.  Both sets were attainable from either a pvp grind or a pve grind.  Both sets were interchangable - people who ONLY raided or pve'd could participate in pvp and people who ONLY pvp'd could do so and run in the occassional pick up raid without being a detriment.  That is not so today and it is one of the main factors that has hurt our population.</p><p>Your arguement is falling on deaf ears becuase you do not play on Nagafen.  Please come here and play at t9 on your zerker and see if your arguement remains the same.  Twin was not taunting you when he asked you who your PVP toon was - it was a legitamate question because currently you have no appropriate mind frame from which to offer solutions.  You experience has been shaped by a pretty little gold circle with a count down timer and the abhoration that is BGs.</p><p>With its many faults the pvp/e game will give you an EQ2 experience that far exceeds anything you will get on a blue server.  I honestly do not know how people can go blue once being here.</p><p>Please come to Nagafen and play in our world. </p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Read your title, that has nothing to do with your title.</p><p>You asked for your opinion on gear separation and to "explain why it would work".</p><p> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">I gave me clear mechanical reasons why it does not work and why gear <em>being the same does with buffs. </em></span></p><p>"<span style="background-color: #221f1c; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: #d2c5a9;">You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea"</span> </p><p>I did the math, and gave you my views on the idea.</p></blockquote><p>Talathion,</p><p>This underlies your current inability to grasp the dynamics of pvp/e.  You are working from a pve mindframe where both opposing duelists and/or groups are standing inside a pretty little circle waiting on a timer to count down so you can be fully buffed/temped and awaiting the officials "GO."</p><p>This is not how pvp works. You provided no math just alot of assumptions. In the "real world" of pvp, hereinafter Nagafen, you need to understand there are no pretty little circles with count downs.  You must be prepared at all times to fight your enemy AND the mob(s) yu are fighting.  On Nagafen 600+ MA and massive flurry is a one shot auto attack death sentence from the combined pve procs and auto attack damage REGARDLESS of your current mitigation values if a PVE rule set existed.</p><p>Per my other post in the other thread - it is NOT gear which really must be seperated it is the blue stats which have been added that really need to be factored out and/or toned down.  This is why the TSO model was really superior to anything we have now.  Both sets were attainable from either a pvp grind or a pve grind.  Both sets were interchangable - people who ONLY raided or pve'd could participate in pvp and people who ONLY pvp'd could do so and run in the occassional pick up raid without being a detriment.  That is not so today and it is one of the main factors that has hurt our population.</p><p>Your arguement is falling on deaf ears becuase you do not play on Nagafen.  Please come here and play at t9 on your zerker and see if your arguement remains the same.  Twin was not taunting you when he asked you who your PVP toon was - it was a legitamate question because currently you have no appropriate mind frame from which to offer solutions.  You experience has been shaped by a pretty little gold circle with a count down timer and the abhoration that is BGs.</p><p>With its many faults the pvp/e game will give you an EQ2 experience that far exceeds anything you will get on a blue server.  I honestly do not know how people can go blue once being here.</p><p>Please come to Nagafen and play in our world. </p></blockquote><p>If thats the case, then people dueling eachother would one shot eachother.</p><p>This is not the case.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>If thats the case, then people dueling eachother would one shot eachother.<p>This is not the case.</p></blockquote><p>Dueling uses pvp damage and stats. The only difference between dueling and pvp is there are no CC immunities. And the "must not be engaged in pvp" procs may or may not work, I've never dueled with those procs.</p><p>That being said, just because you have participated in a couple of duels doesn't mean you know what you're talking about, and your posts nicely illustrate this.</p><p><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I honestly do not know how people can go blue once being here.</blockquote><p>pvp has been ignored so long and has so many problems that I don't see how people can play on this server full time. For me and many other players it's a part time diversion.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Wrong, duels use PVE Stats.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If thats the case, then people dueling eachother would one shot eachother.</p><p>This is not the case.</p></blockquote><p>That is the case.  The only reason your living slightly longer in a duel is becuase you know when and where the attack is going to come from and you have a 20m circle in which to stay.  At max range using pve rules you would stand zero chance against any semi geared scout hitting you from a blind spot. </p><p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite><a href="mailto:Vlahkmaak@Nagafen"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Vlahkmaak@Nagafen</span></span></a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I honestly do not know how people can go blue once being here.</blockquote><p>pvp has been ignored so long and has so many problems that I don't see how people can play on this server full time. For me and many other players it's a part time diversion.</p></blockquote><p>I suppose my current play activity is part time.  i do not play anywhere as much as I used to play.  I do have a very small babay assassin on AB but I just cannot bring myself to lvl it - its so boring over there in the wild.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Read your title, that has nothing to do with your title.</p><p>You asked for your opinion on gear separation and to "explain why it would work".</p><p>I gave me clear mechanical reasons why it does not work and why gear being the same does with buffs.</p><p>"<span style="background-color: #221f1c; color: #d2c5a9; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea"</span></p><p>I did the math, and gave you my views on the idea.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, it had all to do with it, if you sitting here trying to explain pvp to real pvpers, but you play on a pve server, you have no says so in this, I'd rather pvpers sit and argue this with pvpers, because they actually pvp and know how open world pvp works. You have no logic here, nor could you even answer my questions. Your on a blue server, I appreciate your odd concern but your idea's have no bounds in here, go get a toon to 90 on nagafen with a full set of pvp gear and enough kills behind you to back up what you say. When we fight each other, we talk a lot about each other, when we come in here, it drops out of that system and evolve's into communication about what we see as issue's on the server and mechanic base WE play on. </p>

[Talathion]

<p>Compared to what PvP was, PvP is dead.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Compared to what PvP was, PvP is dead.</p></blockquote><p>Side note to what you said earlier I just watch not even 5 minute's ago a Inq one shot a Warden in a duel, both 92 both 320 aa's. How was this possible, his weapon MA WENT OFF 4 times for 3-5k, and flurried on top of it between the same amount. 70k dmg in one hit in a duel by a healer to a healer. What the main issue in this? The Inq had better PVE gear. So, my question still stands.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Compared to what PvP was, PvP is dead.</p></blockquote><p>Side note to what you said earlier I just watch not even 5 minute's ago a Inq one shot a Warden in a duel, both 92 both 320 aa's. How was this possible, his weapon MA WENT OFF 4 times for 3-5k, and flurried on top of it between the same amount. 70k dmg in one hit in a duel by a healer to a healer. What the main issue in this? The Inq had better PVE gear. So, my question still stands.</p></blockquote><p>k... so he hit a crappy player with 17k hitpoints... (3-5k x 4 ...) On a warden. (which has leather armor...)</p><p>Most players have 50-60k Hitpoints now.</p><p>My point stands.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Compared to what PvP was, PvP is dead.</p></blockquote><p>Side note to what you said earlier I just watch not even 5 minute's ago a Inq one shot a Warden in a duel, both 92 both 320 aa's. How was this possible, his weapon MA WENT OFF 4 times for 3-5k, and flurried on top of it between the same amount. 70k dmg in one hit in a duel by a healer to a healer. What the main issue in this? The Inq had better PVE gear. So, my question still stands.</p></blockquote><p>k... so he hit a crappy player with 17k hitpoints... (3-5k x 4 ...) On a warden. (which has leather armor...)</p><p>Most players have 50-60k Hitpoints now.</p><p>My point stands.</p></blockquote><p>This is exactly why blue servers shouldn't talk about pvp, comments like that one, the whole idea is balance and there isn't any, you come in here just to troll about a system you don't know anything about obviously. </p>

[Daalilama]

<p>Prob is the devs dont pay attention to where some of these classic pvp ruleset screwups are coming from case in point look at Tal here...poor guy is absolutely clueless as to the realities of open world pvp ruleset since he plays on a blue server...but an unobservent dev may take the clueless dribble hes spouting as gospel and implement it ...not like it hasnt happened in the past.</p><p>People playing on blue servers who's only experience in pvp is the duels and carebear battlegrounds <strong>should not</strong> have any weight whatsoever with the discussion of current problems with the open world pvp....</p><p>In otherwords Tal in nice and easy words....just because my main is a templar my opins on zerkers have about as much credibility as someone else who doesnt play the zerker class....that is the issue with your comments...but you could always prove those of us wrong who have endured pvp servers for years and come and try some of your ill thought out ideas...just saying...otherwise let the adults on the pvp server to lead the discussion of changes that need to be made and sit quietly at the childrens table.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Yeah, but your saying I don't know anything about PvP, but then again, you don't know anything about PvE, and commenting me on it.</p><p>On a "blue" server, duels take into account raid shards/raid gear/raid procs/Lifetap Procs... ect.. meaning you will get hit far less and heal alot more, and stats are not bastardized.</p><p>On a "red" server, duels are pvp items only, fights are instant, raid procs do not work, on a red server all duels are pvp ruleset, but since they still follow the BG ruleset, its almost like they are instant.</p><p>To be honest, you would have to duel on a blue server to know what i'm talking about, and I would have to pvp on a red server to know what your talking about, but just saying im wrong is just hypocritical, I just assumed you played both sides, and I was wrong.</p><p>When I talked about duels, I just assumed you meant duels on a "blue" server, which many people enjoy and would love to have them have rules like that. (I will assume thats how old EoF PvP rules were.)</p><p>To be honest, you can't even compare pvp to how it is now to how it was before, I only know pvp how it was before, I have no idea how it is now, and I honestly don't want to know, because its really not fun to me.</p><p>Gear separation/no gear progression/no open PvP/Everyone runs, that doesn't sound fun to me...</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, but your saying I don't know anything about PvP, but then again, you don't know anything about PvE, and commenting me on it.</p><p>On a "blue" server, duels take into account raid shards/raid gear/raid procs/Lifetap Procs... ect.. meaning you will get hit far less and heal alot more, and stats are not bastardized.</p><p>On a "red" server, duels are pvp items only, fights are instant, raid procs do not work, on a red server all duels are pvp ruleset, but since they still follow the BG ruleset, its almost like they are instant.</p><p>To be honest, you would have to duel on a blue server to know what i'm talking about, and I would have to pvp on a red server to know what your talking about, but just saying im wrong is just hypocritical, I just assumed you played both sides, and I was wrong.</p><p>When I talked about duels, I just assumed you meant duels on a "blue" server, which many people enjoy and would love to have them have rules like that. (I will assume thats how old EoF PvP rules were.)</p><p>To be honest, you can't even compare pvp to how it is now to how it was before, I only know pvp how it was before, I have no idea how it is now, and I honestly don't want to know, because its really not fun to me.</p><p>Gear separation/no gear progression/no open PvP/Everyone runs, that doesn't sound fun to me...</p></blockquote><p>We raid on naggy hate to break it to you some of the got like 2 or 3 guilds in the top list off a pvp is saying something, do we spend all day worried about pve, no, I would love to duel people on blue server because they have 0 sense of what a effective fighting spec is they prove it in bg's countless times, delethan and a select few are the only people I have came across in a player verse player sitituation I didn't take lightly, fighting each other is what we do, you guys, one v one in guild halls I mean get serious man, there is not even enough room to move in that circle, there is no skill base in it either, if you gear doesnt par with the other player its game over, that does not take much talent at all. Why you keep on and on bringing up duels as a idea of pvp make no sense, duels are set on count downs, there is nothing spontaneous about it. I say that to all of you guys coming in here trying to associate pve with pvp.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, but your saying I don't know anything about PvP, but then again, you don't know anything about PvE, and commenting me on it.</p><p> <strong>Gee I guess naggy has no pve content at all or any guilds in top 10 ww...go figure....</strong></p><p>On a "blue" server, duels take into account raid shards/raid gear/raid procs/Lifetap Procs... ect.. meaning you will get hit far less and heal alot more, and stats are not bastardized.</p><p> <strong>Hmmm lets see the high point of pvp gear design was during TSO wherein the gear was dual use (pve/pvp) and was exceedingly good.  The only reason we no longer have that is complants from blue servers...and again duels in guild halls with the magic circle are pve so server doesnt mean diddly squat.</strong></p><p>On a "red" server, duels are pvp items only, fights are instant, raid procs do not work, on a red server all duels are pvp ruleset, but since they still follow the BG ruleset, its almost like they are instant.</p><p> <strong>Actually duels are the same regardless of server since they are initiated within guild halls so your wrong on that...now if you were trying to specifically speak about 1 -v- 1 in an openworld pvp situation wherein me and twinbladed would go at it then you would be in the area you are trying to talk about.  First off open world pvp currently raid procs do work in varrying degrees so your wrong there, and the remark that people only use "pvp items" only is off mark (pve resists/blue stats/set bonuses/etc. are unchanged in pvp open world) so your wrong again on that point, "instant" kills depend on the class so you were not specific enough and of course again being a nub OPEN WORLD PVP DOES NOT USE BG RULESET, BG ruleset is an extremely watered down version of pvp ruleset....</strong></p><p>To be honest, you would have to duel on a blue server to know what i'm talking about, and I would have to pvp on a red server to know what your talking about, but just saying im wrong is just hypocritical, I just assumed you played both sides, and I was wrong.</p><p><strong>People on Naggy duel just the same as you in guild halls the only thing you got right here is you would have to pvp on naggy to know what you are talking about.  Unless you think naggy only has pvp and no pve content?</strong></p><p>When I talked about duels, I just assumed you meant duels on a "blue" server, which many people enjoy and would love to have them have rules like that. (I will assume thats how old EoF PvP rules were.)</p><p>To be honest, you can't even compare pvp to how it is now to how it was before, I only know pvp how it was before, I have no idea how it is now, and I honestly don't want to know, because its really not fun to me.</p><p><strong>I have been on pvp servers for 7+ years vox in its heyday (yes it had one) and naggy so if you are trying to use past experience from one of the 3 (naggy only one left) pvp servers from years ago you are missing experience of how it is today as a basis for understanding.</strong></p><p>Gear separation/no gear progression/no open PvP/Everyone runs, that doesn't sound fun to me...</p></blockquote>

[Talathion]

<p>So.. duels on pvp and pve servers are the same now? (*LE GASP!*)</p><p>I swear I just had a discussion of you all telling me otherwise... people dieing in 4 hits of 3-5k!  Magic one shots!</p><p>Read below!</p><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Side note to what you said earlier I just watch not even 5 minute's ago a Inq one shot a Warden in a duel, both 92 both 320 aa's. How was this possible, his weapon MA WENT OFF 4 times for 3-5k, and flurried on top of it between the same amount. 70k dmg in one hit in a duel by a healer to a healer. What the main issue in this? The Inq had better PVE gear. So, my question still stands.</p><p><span style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;">Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</span></p><blockquote><p>That is the case.  The only reason your living slightly longer in a duel is becuase you know when and where the attack is going to come from and you have a 20m circle in which to stay.  At max range using pve rules you would stand zero chance against any semi geared scout hitting you from a blind spot. </p><p style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Talathion,</p><p>This underlies your current inability to grasp the dynamics of pvp/e.  You are working from a pve mindframe where both opposing duelists and/or groups are standing inside a pretty little circle waiting on a timer to count down so you can be fully buffed/temped and awaiting the officials "GO."</p><p>This is not how pvp works. You provided no math just alot of assumptions. In the "real world" of pvp, hereinafter Nagafen, you need to understand there are no pretty little circles with count downs.  You must be prepared at all times to fight your enemy AND the mob(s) yu are fighting.  On Nagafen 600+ MA and massive flurry is a one shot auto attack death sentence from the combined pve procs and auto attack damage REGARDLESS of your current mitigation values if a PVE rule set existed.</p><p>Per my other post in the other thread - it is NOT gear which really must be seperated it is the blue stats which have been added that really need to be factored out and/or toned down.  This is why the TSO model was really superior to anything we have now.  Both sets were attainable from either a pvp grind or a pve grind.  Both sets were interchangable - people who ONLY raided or pve'd could participate in pvp and people who ONLY pvp'd could do so and run in the occassional pick up raid without being a detriment.  That is not so today and it is one of the main factors that has hurt our population.</p><p>Your arguement is falling on deaf ears becuase you do not play on Nagafen.  Please come here and play at t9 on your zerker and see if your arguement remains the same.  Twin was not taunting you when he asked you who your PVP toon was - it was a legitamate question because currently you have no appropriate mind frame from which to offer solutions.  You experience has been shaped by a pretty little gold circle with a count down timer and the abhoration that is BGs.</p><p>With its many faults the pvp/e game will give you an EQ2 experience that far exceeds anything you will get on a blue server.  I honestly do not know how people can go blue once being here.</p><p>Please come to Nagafen and play in our world. </p><p style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>Dueling uses pvp damage and stats. The only difference between dueling and pvp is there are no CC immunities. And the "must not be engaged in pvp" procs may or may not work, I've never dueled with those procs.</p><p>That being said, just because you have participated in a couple of duels doesn't mean you know what you're talking about, and your posts nicely illustrate this.</p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>You know we just dueled on in SS on AB, several of us, most duels lasted about 3-4 minutes one versus one, I didn't see anyone magically one shotted or anything!</p><p>I assumed your magic dueling system was comprized of special rulesets that automaticly one shot anyone!</p>

[7foggynites]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys keep asking for the gear to be seperated over and over, get it back to the way it was, but no one has took the time to do the math on the problem with that idea. How will that make pvp any better? Everyone will need higher mitigation, a lot of hit points, and way higher resist, and that probably still wouldn't make a difference. The pvp check box does not fix blue stats, if someone auto attacks you 6 or 7 times in a row then flurry's 70% of the time with insane crit bonus and stats behind it, how does that make pvp better than right now? People can hit over millions now in game, how do you expect to be able to take those kinds of hits, your not raid mobs. The pvp check box isn't going to fix that. You say this idea but fail to add how it would work, and another issue even if they messed with the stats and changed it all around to work semi on the level of players, that doesn't changed the fact that gear will still be the deciding factor to a victory. This is what soe does, they look at the one things you complain about he most and it fix it, but they don't ever look at the whole entire probem. They don't look at aa's, they don't look at strength verse weakness of a class, they don't measure damage coming in verse damage going out, they don't check heals, they don't check control effects, procs, or timers. They don't give out rewards for actually being winners that players like to have, no eye candy nothing is appealing. So how is a simple gear switch going to solve pvp?</p></blockquote><p>Something that a lot of players forget is that when players give SOE their money, they're not doing that to be pummeled and abused by griefers or elitist players. They're giving SOE money explicitly to be a hero and have fun. So when a player joins a pvp server they expect to be a hero and have fun. It's SOE's job to ensure that the game is fair and fun. This does not mean monopolies can form. It does not mean you can hack the game. It doesn't mean griefing.</p><p>My impression is that they separated gear because there was a gap between normal players and hardcore groupers/raiders. This gap prevented the normal players from defending themselves. Normal players outnumber hardcore players. So hardcores will have an unfair advantage that the others cannot overcome. They can exploit this and wreak chaos on the population. Players enjoy control, not chaos. So one way to prevent this sort of monopoly from forming is to make pve gear and pvp gear separate and then make the pvp gear drop in group instances. This ensures that everyone can have a chance to get good pvp gear and be able to compete with others on the basis of skill and not gear.</p><p>If they had made raiding gear much easier to get in order to resolve this gap then it would affect PVE players. Since only one server is PVP-based and a dozen or so are PVE, it doesn't make sense to enforce a mechanic on them just for the benefit of the pvp players. Thus, you want a solution that doesn't impact PVE in a noticeable way. Furthermore, the only reason this gap is important on PVP-servers is because of the unfair advantage it gives in PVP. On PVE-servers, a hardcore raider cannot negatively impact the gameplay of a non-hardcore, so the gap isn't as important. Naturally, a hardore raider can flaunt their stats and bribe SOE for harder gameplay, but their population is a minority and this makes their voice muted. However, this doesn't prevent the possibility that a developer favors hardcores over casuals and makes casuals feel alienated. But the problem in this case is not the stats on the gear, persay, it's the developer paying excessive attention to hardcores. You can see this kind of environment in games where the gameplay is unforgiving and hardcore-oriented.</p><p>Of course, players still have to earn the pvp gear in addition to the pve gear. So for a while there will be a gap, but it won't last forever as it would have before because every player now has access via group-instances. These can probably top out at a hardcore stage, but developers can softcap it so that any gap that's present will be small. Alternatively, they can just have instances that any group can do - the mechanics would be slightly more forgiving.</p><p>There's also the issue that stats/procs which work in PVE might not work in PVP. Thus, separating the stats allows you to do what you want with either one without stumbling on the other and getting an undesired result.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>dbl post</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Daalilama@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>look at Tal here...poor guy is absolutely clueless as to the realities of open world pvp ruleset since he plays on a blue server...but an unobservent dev may take the clueless dribble hes spouting as gospel and implement it</p></blockquote><p>don't worry... in talathawaffle's case, I HIGHLY doubt it.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To be honest, you would have to duel on a blue server to know what i'm talking about, and I would have to pvp on a red server to know what your talking about, but just saying im wrong is just hypocritical, I just assumed you played both sides, and I was wrong.</p></blockquote><p>lol oh lord... sorry, just saw this</p><p>how about no, and we just continue life not knowing what the <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> you're talking about.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To be honest, you would have to duel on a blue server to know what i'm talking about, and I would have to pvp on a red server to know what your talking about, but just saying im wrong is just hypocritical, I just assumed you played both sides, and I was wrong.</p></blockquote><p>lol oh lord... sorry, just saw this</p><p>how about no, and we just continue life not knowing what the <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /> you're talking about.</p></blockquote><p>Lol...I agree, the main thing I don't get is he feels the need to be in naggy threads but doesn't even pvp...Tal roll a pvp toon get to 90 get a set of gear, I'm sure judging by your past in the threads there is a lot of naggy players you threw statements against that would love to test your wise idea's of pvp.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Your free to come to AB and duel me, don't worry I'll die with one autoattack as you all claim.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So.. duels on pvp and pve servers are the same now? (*LE GASP!*)</p><p>I swear I just had a discussion of you all telling me otherwise... people dieing in 4 hits of 3-5k!  Magic one shots!</p><p>Read below!</p><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Side note to what you said earlier I just watch not even 5 minute's ago a Inq one shot a Warden in a duel, both 92 both 320 aa's. How was this possible, his weapon MA WENT OFF 4 times for 3-5k, and flurried on top of it between the same amount. 70k dmg in one hit in a duel by a healer to a healer. What the main issue in this? The Inq had better PVE gear. So, my question still stands.</p><p><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 12px;">Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</span></p><blockquote><p>That is the case.  The only reason your living slightly longer in a duel is becuase you know when and where the attack is going to come from and you have a 20m circle in which to stay.  At max range using pve rules you would stand zero chance against any semi geared scout hitting you from a blind spot. </p><p style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Talathion,</p><p>This underlies your current inability to grasp the dynamics of pvp/e.  You are working from a pve mindframe where both opposing duelists and/or groups are standing inside a pretty little circle waiting on a timer to count down so you can be fully buffed/temped and awaiting the officials "GO."</p><p>This is not how pvp works. You provided no math just alot of assumptions. In the "real world" of pvp, hereinafter Nagafen, you need to understand there are no pretty little circles with count downs.  You must be prepared at all times to fight your enemy AND the mob(s) yu are fighting.  On Nagafen 600+ MA and massive flurry is a one shot auto attack death sentence from the combined pve procs and auto attack damage REGARDLESS of your current mitigation values if a PVE rule set existed.</p><p>Per my other post in the other thread - it is NOT gear which really must be seperated it is the blue stats which have been added that really need to be factored out and/or toned down.  This is why the TSO model was really superior to anything we have now.  Both sets were attainable from either a pvp grind or a pve grind.  Both sets were interchangable - people who ONLY raided or pve'd could participate in pvp and people who ONLY pvp'd could do so and run in the occassional pick up raid without being a detriment.  That is not so today and it is one of the main factors that has hurt our population.</p><p>Your arguement is falling on deaf ears becuase you do not play on Nagafen.  Please come here and play at t9 on your zerker and see if your arguement remains the same.  Twin was not taunting you when he asked you who your PVP toon was - it was a legitamate question because currently you have no appropriate mind frame from which to offer solutions.  You experience has been shaped by a pretty little gold circle with a count down timer and the abhoration that is BGs.</p><p>With its many faults the pvp/e game will give you an EQ2 experience that far exceeds anything you will get on a blue server.  I honestly do not know how people can go blue once being here.</p><p>Please come to Nagafen and play in our world. </p><p style="color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>Dueling uses pvp damage and stats. The only difference between dueling and pvp is there are no CC immunities. And the "must not be engaged in pvp" procs may or may not work, I've never dueled with those procs.</p><p>That being said, just because you have participated in a couple of duels doesn't mean you know what you're talking about, and your posts nicely illustrate this.</p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p><strong>You know we just dueled on in SS on AB, several of us, most duels lasted about 3-4 minutes one versus one, I didn't see anyone magically one shotted or anything!</strong></p><p><strong>I assumed your magic dueling system was comprized of special rulesets that automaticly one shot anyone!</strong></p></blockquote><p>Tal you are aware from the "limitless" knowledgebase from years of being on a pvp server (opps...forgot your on AB) that there is 2 types of duels....the first is the classic pve ruleset of which you just cited and then theres the real duel with pvp ruleset where in the one shots can occur to break it down in even smaller crystal clear words you can understand 1 is done say in a guild hall with that magical pretty yellow circle for both opponents to fight in with a count down timer and the other can occur anywhere and everywhere with no yellow circle, no timer, and full pvp ruleset....do I need to draw it on the blackboard?</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Yeah, PVP rules are dumb and have always been dumb.</p><p>I don't understand why you love one shotting so much, I prefere slower duels that require intelligence.</p><p>You know what, I don't even consider that a duel or pvp, I call it: /autoattack 2, gg.</p><p>Dueling in sinking sands docks is best.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, PVP rules are dumb and have always been dumb.</p><p>I don't understand why you love one shotting so much, I prefere slower duels that require intelligence.</p><p>You know what, I don't even consider that a duel or pvp, I call it: /autoattack 2, gg.</p><p>Dueling in sinking sands docks is best.</p></blockquote><p>Daali pretty much nailed it on the head with you, pvp was just fine and dandy until the mechs got all messed up, but truth be told even in regular standards, you guys get SMOKED in battegrounds, why is that? You can't use your gear from raid, you do not know the system for pvp rule's. You have proven this time after time. So why on the planet would we listen to you sit here and talk about pvp, when 95% of your players can't even survive in our world. Prove me wrong here, everytime I go to a bg, pve players get one shotted left and right besides tanks who those up there temps but then die directly after. This happens because we always have pvp'd so a bg is like a body collecting fest because certain players from other server have 0 idea of what to do besides smash keys. As I said before, you guys don't know the mechs, you don't know the territory, your not aa spec for it, so to sit here and talk about it you might as well be throwing ice at the sun. </p>