This Game Is Full-Blown "Pay-To-Win" [Archive]

Gravy

04-29-2012, 12:00 PM

Even though devs say they are not doing pay to win, it is the current trend in MMOs.Eve Online is full pay to win. You can take your paycheck, buy PLEX from the official Eve website. Sell that PLEX in the ingame market for isk. Use that isk to buy a highly skilled toon via the official forums and use the left over isk to buy a powerful ship via the ingame market.So in Eve, which is arguably the most hard core pvp game out there, you can take your paycheck and in a few hours you can be an elite player.GW2 has a similar setup going. Right now it doesn't look like ArenaNet will allow characters to be bought and sold officially but you can bet that people will be using Gems to buy power leveling.There are a couple of issues about this that are interesting.1. Why does anyone care? Outside of pvp, why do you care how someone got their gear? All I care about is how they fight now that they are beside me in a group. How you got to the group is meaningless. What you do in the group means everything.2. Without the system that is being used officially by CCP and ArenaNet and unofficially by SoE, you'd still have the same things going on. People would still buy plat only via 3rd party websites. Those are even more risky. People would still use that plat to buy powerleveling and loot rights. At least when its enabled by the devs there is more security in the transaction.3. The issue of limiting loot rights to those present during the kill (as mentioned by the OP) is a possible alternative. But it has problems too. What if a player gets disconnected during a fight? How do you know guilds won't start building 23 player raids and selling the last spot to someone with a guarantee of one awesome item or your money back?Even Diablo, the king of hack and slash games is going the way of pay to win in Diablo 3.At the end of the day the old style of grinding out killing mobs until you get the item you wanted is probably gone. Now, things like titles and Achievement rewards are maybe the last glimpse of a system where you could tell by looking at someone how much time they invested in their character. See this thread of the reward for 5000 quests for a good example.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=517853" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=517853</a>

Rijacki

04-29-2012, 12:02 PM

<cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>soe has been slowly making the game pay to win little by little.the new cure pots they just put on SC store, they even got a pot that give you 25% more coin from mobs on the sc store now.</blockquote>What are you talking about?There are absolutely no cure potions on the marketplace or your imaginary potion giving more coin.</blockquote>Look in the Vault of Serilis. Sadly, those potions which were on the EQ2X Marketplace are in there: Cure potion, Luck potion, Quickness potion.

yohann koldheart

04-29-2012, 12:48 PM

<cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>soe has been slowly making the game pay to win little by little.the new cure pots they just put on SC store, they even got a pot that give you 25% more coin from mobs on the sc store now.</blockquote>What are you talking about?There are absolutely no cure potions on the marketplace or your imaginary potion giving more coin.</blockquote>cant tell if your being sarcastic or you really dont see them there lol

kahonen

04-29-2012, 01:18 PM

<cite>Gravy wrote:</cite><blockquote>...So in Eve, which is arguably the most hard core pvp game out there, you can take your paycheck and in a few hours you can be an elite player....</blockquote>I beg to differ. You can take your paycheck and buy the trappings and appearance of an elite player but you won't be an elite player.First time you get into a fight and get your butt munched it'll more than obvious you're not an elite player.

Dasein

04-29-2012, 01:28 PM

<cite>Gaeablock wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE has 100% control over it. So yes, you can blame them rather easily. If they wanted this system broken down they could easily stop any raid loot being tradable, much like in WoW. They could flatout stop putting out SC cards and require that players only buy it in game through their credit card, no gifting allowed.Make no mistake, SOE allows this system. You're pretty naive if you think otherwise. They make profit from the current system and that's all they are concerned with.</blockquote>Removing SLR would have many negative consequences for the game, while doing little to alleviate the 'play to win' aspect you are complaining about. Raids would simply sell access to raid spots, so the pay to win aspect continues, while raid guilds as a whole would suffer due to an inability to retain members.Getting rid of SC cards would also be foolish from an economic standpoint - not everyone has a credit card or feels comfortable giving that card to SOE. Given the ubiquitousness of game cards, this would seem to be a common phenomena, so SOE would be putting itself at a disadvantage relative it's competitors were it to go this route.Thus, while it is true that SOE could put a stop to these things, the real question is if it is worth it to do so?

Dasein

04-29-2012, 01:31 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Especially during specials like triple station cash today, I've seen some people spending $45 on Walmart cards and trading them for plat in game, which they use to buy the rights to loot no-trade end game raid gear, and who knows what else.I find it pathetic.</blockquote>Pay to win generally implies that certain necessary or highly desirable items are only available via cash shops, and not through any in-game means.Raid loot is, of course, available via raiding. If raiding in't your thing, plat is available through many means so you can buy loot. Neither of these requires spending any more real money beyond the cost of the game.

SpineDoc

04-29-2012, 04:40 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can take your paycheck and buy the trappings and appearance of an elite player but you won't be an elite player.</blockquote>This just about sums up SLR for me, lol. IMO SLR is completey "pay to win", but I've always said that the SLR buyers have a legitimate argument in that they "earned" that plat in game, so they should be able to do anything with their money, but that still doesn't mean they "earned" the gear in my eyes. But it's not the "pay to win" others are talking about, specifically selling stat items or items which affect gameplay or offer an advantage on station cash for real money. It's completely inevitable that true pay to win is coming to this game. Just look at the de-evolution of the population of most MMO's, free to play, very fast leveling, no danger or risk of dying, win the game playing just solo, grouping discouraged, etc etc. How the heck does no one see SOE offering pay to win items on station cash in the NEAR future. But it is the vast majority of MMO's which will swing this way, not just SOE. Profit is profit, can't really say I blame them much, I'd much more blame the players mindset who are actually the ones who buy and create the profit which dictates which direction companies develop games.

SpineDoc

04-29-2012, 04:43 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raids would simply sell access to raid spots,</blockquote>I've seen this as a negative thing several times and don't understand it. IMO SLR would be MUCH MUCH more palatable to those of us who don't like it if raids had to sell raid spots. To me this means that either a) the player has to participate in actually killing the mob, or b) the raid force is comfortable fighting with 23 people. Plus it has the added benefit of reclaiming chat instead of seeing SLR auctions every other line.

Alenna

04-29-2012, 05:14 PM

Regolas

04-29-2012, 05:27 PM

I see people post that removing SLR would damage the game quite often. How? Items go to alts or get transmuted if the person who needs isn't there at the kill. How does that hurt anyone? I don't remember SLR in eq1. I'd be quite happy not to have it

Alenna

04-29-2012, 05:55 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see people post that removing SLR would damage the game quite often. How? Items go to alts or get transmuted if the person who needs isn't there at the kill. How does that hurt anyone? I don't remember SLR in eq1. I'd be quite happy not to have it</blockquote>becuase then a raid force cannot field the best raid for any given fight differnt fights take different makeups of raid so if someone was asked to sit out of a certain fight to get someon who could help they would nto be able to get the loot if it drops even if they had been there during the rest of the raid now do you se how it would damage the game.

yohann koldheart

04-29-2012, 06:00 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote> I don't remember SLR in eq1.</blockquote>that because eq1 didnt need it, all mob dropped loot raid/group/solo was tradeable and there was no atuning it to you when it was equiped .imho they should just make all loot tradeable like in eq1, that would get rid of slr and shut up all the people that cry about it all the time .

Regolas

04-29-2012, 06:48 PM

Eq1 raid loot wasn't tradeable, at least not what I remember in PoP. But there were no max raid quantities though. It's fine having work arounds for raiders... the issue is one of greed which I didn't witness in eq1 (although it may have been there and I was ignorant). People choose to sell no trade items in order to make a quick buck. I saw someone selling a fabled drop from Skyshrine contested yesterday the same way. Me personally, I'd have just greed rolled on it if no one in group needed.

yohann koldheart

04-29-2012, 07:06 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eq1 raid loot wasn't tradeable, at least not what I remember in PoP. But there were no max raid quantities though. It's fine having work arounds for raiders... the issue is one of greed which I didn't witness in eq1 (although it may have been there and I was ignorant). People choose to sell no trade items in order to make a quick buck. I saw someone selling a fabled drop from Skyshrine contested yesterday the same way. Me personally, I'd have just greed rolled on it if no one in group needed.</blockquote>it was when i played , remember getting a fungi tunic wich was dragon raid loot . won it, wore it till i pl'ed myself then sold it to a guildie. but i stopped playin just before pop so it may have changed with that expansion.

Regolas

04-29-2012, 08:37 PM

Some things were tradeable, just like eq2. But many things were no trade and I don't remember people SLRing no drop stuff that no one who killed the mob wanted. It rotted or got destroyed or someone came along and looted it when the timer expired.

Tigerlord001

04-29-2012, 09:20 PM

For that matter, I don't remember people doing SLR in EQ2 until around Kunark, when I specifically remember people selling the Praetor's Guard from Vault of Eternal Sleep. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention before that, but it seems like it was something some people started doing, then suddenly everyone copied and it became the norm.

Morrias

04-29-2012, 09:48 PM

With the addition of Cure pots and free Marketplace plat, the game is pay-to-win, Smedly flat out lied, I called it when the Marketplace first came out! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now would be the time I uninstall and leave forever except I somehow ended up leader of a guild I don't want to leave right now.. >.<

The_Cheeseman

04-30-2012, 12:45 AM

The Fungus Covered Scale Tunic wasn't dragon raid loot, it dropped off of the Myconid Spore King in Old Sebilis.Originally, almost all loot in EQ1 was tradeable, basically only specific quest-related items were no trade. The primary raid targets of the original release--Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox--dropped all tradeable items. It wasn't until the release of the Planes (Hate, Fear, and Sky) that they started making loot primarily no trade. However, it was generally considered unthinkable to sell raid loot--even if it was tradeable--because most people considered it a shared accomplishment. I distinctly remember a guy on my server getting booted from his guild for selling a Cloak of Flames, for example.Now, having gone back to EQ1 for a short time recently, I discovered that it is now common practice to give away "rot gear"; that is no-trade items that nobody in the group needs, or of which nobody can get a duplicate due to the Lore tag. Generally, the item would go to the first person to send a tell or the first person to get into the zone to claim it. I found it odd that nobody thought to sell these items rather than give them away, but it's just a different culture.Personally, I have no issues with SLR auctions. I've been on both sides of the have-and-have-not debate, having once been a hardcore raider back in EQ1 and being among the best-equipped members of my class on the server. During the Kunark/Velious era in EQ1, loot was rare and precious. You could go for weeks at a time without upgrading your equipment, and often you would invest days of played time questing, camping, or raiding for a single specific item. I could tell you a story about every piece of equipment I wore: how I got it, who was there to help me, what competing guild we had to race to kill the MOB that dropped it, etc. People getting good stuff with no effort would have ticked me off back then.However, EQ2 just isn't like that. There are so many items dropping constantly--so many tiny incremental upgrades--that I couldn't even quote you the names of half of the stuff I am wearing on my main right now. It's hard to really care how people got their gear when said gear is really nothing more than a collection of semi-random numbers with a meaningless, generic title that drops from any number of instance bosses of whom most people don't even know the names.I also think the attitude of "they didn't earn their gear" is really quite silly. I don't raid much anymore, but I do like to advance my character, so I save-up and buy what raid loot I can via SLR, while attempting to attend raids with various guilds when they can use a hand. I have been around since launch, so I have lots of connections in many places, and am considered a very reliable ally when I am available. Not long ago, I attended a raid and ended-up acquiring 7 different items, just because the rest of the players present didn't need them (go, go fighter loot!)Now, I have paid upwards of 400-600pp for similar-quality items in the past, and I can assure you that it took far more effort for me to collect all that cash farming raid zones than it did to attend that single, essentially trivial raid. So did I really "earn" that gear? Do I "deserve" to wear it? I am obviously not a scrub, my experience and play skill is top-notch, but I don't generally get to raid due to my play times. Does that mean that I am not entitled to high-quality loot? What about those slackers who manage to squeek-by under the radar while the rest of the guild carries the raid? Do they "deserve" the loot they get just by showing up and managing to hit mana flow every 30 seconds?Honestly, and I mean no personal offense to anyone with this comment, I think people who argue against SLR just because of this "earning your gear" mentality are simply being elitist. I find such snobbery fairly petty and counter-productive. Isn't it better for more people to have good gear? That just means that there is less of a gap in effectiveness between raiders and non-raiders, which creates less stratification of the playerbase and leads to better integration of play styles. I know I'd rather my tank have raid-quality armor when I am in a group, regardless of his skill level.As for the "SLR is pay-to-win" argument, I think it's a pretty pointless debate. The only way to prevent people from buying in-game currency with real money would be to make the in-game currency worthless. Currently, SLR auctions are basically the only thing that gives plat value in the game. If they stopped SLR, there would really be nothing to spend plat on at all, which would make its existence pointless. Personally, I like having a healthy in-game economy (not that I feel EQ2's in-game economy is all that healthy, but that's a discussion for another thread).Real money trading has been a constant since MMOs became popular. It will always be present in some form in any game, it's just human nature. Saying that EQ2 is "pay-to-win" because it is possible to buy in-game currency with real money and then use that currency to advance oneself in the game, is basically calling every MMO in existence "pay-to-win".Newsflash: people with lots of money will always have an advantage. In everything. [Source: the entirety of human history.]

Gravy

04-30-2012, 12:58 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Generally, the item would go to the first person to send a tell or the first person to get into the zone to claim it. I found it odd that nobody thought to sell these items rather than give them away, but it's just a different culture.</blockquote>Maybe its not the culture, but the economy.Specifically, anyone still playing EQ probably has so much coin that its no longer relavant. Why sell something when you already have more money than you know what to do with?

Zorvan

04-30-2012, 01:04 AM

<cite>Tatwi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've seen some people spending $45 on Walmart cards and trading them for plat in game, which they use to buy the rights to loot no-trade end game raid gear, and who knows what else.</blockquote>That's the players making it "pay to win", not SOE. Can't fault SOE for the actions of the players.</blockquote>Yes, because SOE couldn't possibly start banning fools, could they? Oh, that's right. Better to let everyone cheat with their wallet than lose more customers than they already have.No, what it comes down to is SOE is filled with nothing but laziness and greed.They say they don't "officially support" SC for plat so they don't have to police the scammers or spend time making a trade system that we all know they'd screw up anyway.They refuse to enforce their own EULA because it would mean having to hire REAL and COMPETENT GM's to deal with farmers and sellers.And they enjoy the fact that people actually buy their SC cards now to make up for the fact most legitimate paying subscribers left a long time ago.

The_Cheeseman

04-30-2012, 01:34 AM

<cite>Zorvan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, because SOE couldn't possibly start banning fools, could they? Oh, that's right. Better to let everyone cheat with their wallet than lose more customers than they already have.No, what it comes down to is SOE is filled with nothing but laziness and greed.They say they don't "officially support" SC for plat so they don't have to police the scammers or spend time making a trade system that we all know they'd screw up anyway.They refuse to enforce their own EULA because it would mean having to hire REAL and COMPETENT GM's to deal with farmers and sellers.And they enjoy the fact that people actually buy their SC cards now to make up for the fact most legitimate paying subscribers left a long time ago.</blockquote>Honestly, all I am reading here is a lot of misplaced animosity about an issue that I'm betting the vast majority of players just don't actually care much about. I've been playing the Everquest franchise for over a decade and I can't think of a single situation in which somebody buying plat has had any effect on me, whatsoever. Apart from righteous indignation, I really don't see what reason you have to get so upset.Now, if SOE was selling raid-quality equipment in the marketplace and buying said equipment provided a significant in-game advantage to those who used it, making those who did not less desirable as a consequence, then I'd be upset. But cure potions? Heck, selling them in the marketplace might actually lead to more players actually bothering to carry them, which would lead to less of a headache for me on rare occasions when I lead PuG raids. My only level 90+ tradeskiller is an alchemist, and I couldn't give less of a crap that they're selling cure potions now. It's not like they cost anything to make, or provide any significant income as trade goods.Also, I would like to say that in the few situations over the years in which I have had to interact with SOE customer service, I have always been very happy with the results. The GMs have always been as prompt and courteous as could be expected, and have even been nice enough to fulfill requests that I am sure they were under no professional obligation to consider. Any situations I have read about on these boards in which people were unhappy with the GMs, I have generally felt that it was the player's unreasonable request that was the problem. The EQ2 developers may have a spotty record, but I personally think the GMs are pretty darn good.

Senvares

04-30-2012, 01:51 AM

<cite>Gaeablock wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE has 100% control over it. So yes, you can blame them rather easily. If they wanted this system broken down they could easily stop any raid loot being tradable, much like in WoW. They could flatout stop putting out SC cards and require that players only buy it in game through their credit card, no gifting allowed.Make no mistake, SOE allows this system. You're pretty naive if you think otherwise. They make profit from the current system and that's all they are concerned with.</blockquote>Wait did you just say SOE controls what players do with the cards they buy... how so because i would like to know i dont see SOE body guards around preventing this from happening you cant blame SOE for this it IS indeed the players who do they make the choice to sell them that way and people are stupid enough to actually do it. Not everyone who plays EQ2 has a credit card or they refuse to use a credit card you cant blame SOE for helping those who cannot purchase SC from credit cards. Also if they made EQ2 like wow it would suck just as bad as wow does im sorry but eq2 is fine the way it is.so blame the people who black market SC cards like that not SOE they cant have people watching over for things like this in every country, state, city and town.

Brigh

04-30-2012, 01:53 AM

Rahatmattata

04-30-2012, 03:19 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Fungus Covered Scale Tunic wasn't dragon raid loot, it dropped off of the Myconid Spore King in Old Sebilis.Originally, almost all loot in EQ1 was tradeable, basically only specific quest-related items were no trade. The primary raid targets of the original release--Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox--dropped all tradeable items. It wasn't until the release of the Planes (Hate, Fear, and Sky) that they started making loot primarily no trade. However, it was generally considered unthinkable to sell raid loot--even if it was tradeable--because most people considered it a shared accomplishment. I distinctly remember a guy on my server getting booted from his guild for selling a Cloak of Flames, for example.Now, having gone back to EQ1 for a short time recently, I discovered that it is now common practice to give away "rot gear"; that is no-trade items that nobody in the group needs, or of which nobody can get a duplicate due to the Lore tag. Generally, the item would go to the first person to send a tell or the first person to get into the zone to claim it. I found it odd that nobody thought to sell these items rather than give them away, but it's just a different culture.Personally, I have no issues with SLR auctions. I've been on both sides of the have-and-have-not debate, having once been a hardcore raider back in EQ1 and being among the best-equipped members of my class on the server. During the Kunark/Velious era in EQ1, loot was rare and precious. You could go for weeks at a time without upgrading your equipment, and often you would invest days of played time questing, camping, or raiding for a single specific item. I could tell you a story about every piece of equipment I wore: how I got it, who was there to help me, what competing guild we had to race to kill the MOB that dropped it, etc. People getting good stuff with no effort would have ticked me off back then.However, EQ2 just isn't like that. There are so many items dropping constantly--so many tiny incremental upgrades--that I couldn't even quote you the names of half of the stuff I am wearing on my main right now. It's hard to really care how people got their gear when said gear is really nothing more than a collection of semi-random numbers with a meaningless, generic title that drops from any number of instance bosses of whom most people don't even know the names.I also think the attitude of "they didn't earn their gear" is really quite silly. I don't raid much anymore, but I do like to advance my character, so I save-up and buy what raid loot I can via SLR, while attempting to attend raids with various guilds when they can use a hand. I have been around since launch, so I have lots of connections in many places, and am considered a very reliable ally when I am available. Not long ago, I attended a raid and ended-up acquiring 7 different items, just because the rest of the players present didn't need them (go, go fighter loot!)Now, I have paid upwards of 400-600pp for similar-quality items in the past, and I can assure you that it took far more effort for me to collect all that cash farming raid zones than it did to attend that single, essentially trivial raid. So did I really "earn" that gear? Do I "deserve" to wear it? I am obviously not a scrub, my experience and play skill is top-notch, but I don't generally get to raid due to my play times. Does that mean that I am not entitled to high-quality loot? What about those slackers who manage to squeek-by under the radar while the rest of the guild carries the raid? Do they "deserve" the loot they get just by showing up and managing to hit mana flow every 30 seconds?Honestly, and I mean no personal offense to anyone with this comment, I think people who argue against SLR just because of this "earning your gear" mentality are simply being elitist. I find such snobbery fairly petty and counter-productive. Isn't it better for more people to have good gear? That just means that there is less of a gap in effectiveness between raiders and non-raiders, which creates less stratification of the playerbase and leads to better integration of play styles. I know I'd rather my tank have raid-quality armor when I am in a group, regardless of his skill level.As for the "SLR is pay-to-win" argument, I think it's a pretty pointless debate. The only way to prevent people from buying in-game currency with real money would be to make the in-game currency worthless. Currently, SLR auctions are basically the only thing that gives plat value in the game. If they stopped SLR, there would really be nothing to spend plat on at all, which would make its existence pointless. Personally, I like having a healthy in-game economy (not that I feel EQ2's in-game economy is all that healthy, but that's a discussion for another thread).Real money trading has been a constant since MMOs became popular. It will always be present in some form in any game, it's just human nature. Saying that EQ2 is "pay-to-win" because it is possible to buy in-game currency with real money and then use that currency to advance oneself in the game, is basically calling every MMO in existence "pay-to-win".Newsflash: people with lots of money will always have an advantage. In everything. [Source: the entirety of human history.]</blockquote>That's all fine, but the main issue that bothers me is people that don't earn their 600p, but buy it with real life money they convert into station cash. The OP wasn't really about SLR, that was just an example of how players are using real life money as a means of character advancement.One obvious reason in plain sight how people buying plat and gear with real life money affects you, is if you miss out on a raid or group slot because someone bought better gear than you. There is no way to know, how much you or other players may have lost out on, because guild X isn't recruiting your class because they have someone of your class with way better gear that trades station cash for plats and buys loot rights. I rolled up a fresh 90 guard, I want to raid eventually... and I have to claw my way up the progression ladder knowing no one wants to do old content so eventually I can compete for extremely limited and coveted tank slots against chumps that bought gear?To make matters worse, when someone is known to be "legit" and not try to scam station cash for plats, they are recognized in world chat and praised as being a legit seller... almost even treated as heroes. When the fact is, they are buying that gear you logged in night after night wiping to the same sht over and over for 6 monts, with one swipe of their debit cards at walmart.Multiplayer games like this should be based on fair-play for all, and the premise that everyone goes through the same difficulties and time sinks to progress their character. Whether you got your sword from raiding with 23 other players contesting 4 other guilds for a pull... or saving thousands of plat over months... you went through difficulties and time.This whoever has the fattest paycheck wins mentallity could very well kill MMOs as we know them. Long ago will be the days of Everquest and Final Fantasy XI. We will be in the ages of Farmville online where everything you do is a small transaction fee of 3 cents, and it costs 35 cents to open a metal box.

Landiin

04-30-2012, 03:27 AM

OMG you people are still QQing over SLR... I don't see how it is hurting you other then maybe you don't somehow have the plat to buy it. It is a three way win. SOE wins buy people buying SC to get plat, Soloer/casual player wins by getting raid loot and the raider wins by getting even more plat and helping out the server by gearing more people for you to group with. So quit QQing about none issue and find some more important to QQ about.

Rahatmattata

04-30-2012, 03:31 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>OMG you people are still QQing over SLR... I don't see how it is hurting you other then maybe you don't somehow have the plat to buy it. It is a three way win. SOE wins buy people buying SC to get plat, Soloer/casual player wins by getting raid loot and the raider wins by getting even more plat and helping out the server by gearing more people for you to group with. So quit QQing about none issue and find some more important to QQ about.</blockquote>or,SOE loses as the population whittles away, solo/casual players win because anything better than solo/casual gear is win and the population doesn't matter, raiders lose because people buy gear so they don't have to raid for it resulting in fewer raiders, and your average player loses because he's taking the chump way of playing the game legit while everyone else "cheats"

DamselInDistress

04-30-2012, 05:13 AM

Xianthia

04-30-2012, 05:22 AM

<cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote>soe has been slowly making the game pay to win little by little.the new cure pots they just put on SC store, they even got a pot that give you 25% more coin from mobs on the sc store now.</blockquote>What are you talking about?There are absolutely no cure potions on the marketplace or your imaginary potion giving more coin.</blockquote>I had to read it couple of times before I "heard" the sarcasm... I think :pUnless you were being serious and then should look at marketplace under Serilis vault <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

bks6721

04-30-2012, 06:37 AM

pay to win is here, has been for a while. I don't understand why they only go half way with it. It's obviously the path SOE chooses to go down, so do it right. Let us buy gear, faction, adorns ect on the marketplace./note.. the above may contain sarcasm

The_Cheeseman

04-30-2012, 07:40 AM

I agree that it kinda sucks when people can open their wallets and just buy all the stuff that many of us earned through many hours or even days of play. However, RMT is not new, it exists in every current MMO, and there really isn't anything that a game developer can feasibly do to stop it. I acknowledge that RMT activity makes games unfair, I simply don't see how anybody could claim that EQ2 or SOE is at fault for its influence.Again, RMT activity is present in every MMO in varying degrees. SOE does not sanction such activity or actively participate in pay-to-win strategies. You can't blame SOE for allowing RMT to exist in EQ2, because they have no significant means of preventing it. SOE can't be held responsible for the action of EQ2's players.If RMT was capable of killing an MMO, it would have happened already. RMT existed before EQ2 launched, and it will exist as long as a subset of MMO players value their time more highly than their money (read: forever). No, it isn't fair. No, it isn't going to change.Calling EQ2 specifically "pay-to-win" because it shares the same RMT issues of every other MMO on the market makes it a practically useless descriptor.

Gaealiege

04-30-2012, 11:24 AM

The excuse of not having a credit card being a good reason for station cash cards is laughable at best. Monetary security has become ironclad in the past decade. On the rare chance that your information is stolen, your bank will fully re-imburse any illegal purchases. To not trust a bank/lender at this point in human history points to an uneducated, superstitious belief that the world is out to get you.

Luterin

04-30-2012, 01:58 PM

<cite>Gravy wrote:</cite><blockquote>GW2 has a similar setup going. Right now it doesn't look like ArenaNet will allow characters to be bought and sold officially but you can bet that people will be using Gems to buy power leveling.</blockquote>LOL, why would anyone want powerlevelling in GW2 ever? You really don't know how that game works, do you?

Luterin

04-30-2012, 02:11 PM

In what way does it hurt any of you that something like a pair of pants that was rotting was sold for a few hundred plats? How does this really affect YOUR gameplay and make it so much worse that you people have to come to the forum and whine?!?!Btw, in Vanguard we always gave stuff away that was rotting, even raidloot, no one ever sold anything, but those were different times I guess...

Giallolas

04-30-2012, 02:28 PM

I've been watching this thread and thought I might pipe in my two cents. There are two premiums in which you can invest to improve yourself in this game. One is your time, and the other is your money. The gaming companies don't really care how much time you put into something, as long as they continue to receive your money. Being a successful business owner myself, I have no problems with this concept.What I'm seeings is that most of you believe that the only premium that we should/want to pay should our time as long as you pay your monthly premium (not even that now with F2P for some). However, your time doesn't really make the company any more money. When I see an uber player with all the best raid gear, I usually think that it's cool, but does not person not have a family, job, school, anything going on in RL? I've been a raider and guild leader before as well. I know the time committment it takes to successfully do those things. I no longer raid and will never do so seriously again. My time is worth way more than raid gear that quickly becomes obsolete by the next GU.I am of the class of people that has more money than time. I recognize that the company wants my money and I want to play their game. I don't want to play for 10 hours a day or raid 3+ nights a week, but I want to play their game and experience a measure of it in the time I have. So how do they get my surplus cash into their coffers? Make some of the game available to me for it. I love the SC store. I am one of those that logs in every Wednesday to see what's new and what's on sale. If I had my wish, I would ask them to expand their SC items to include raid quality gear. I don't believe that time is the only investment one can make in this game and I eaglerly await something I can spend my money on each week.If anyone out there doesn't like that kind of business model, than do what I do. Work hard in RL and give them your cash to receive it. Currently, I go without because I'm not willing to take away from my RL to invest into earning only digital cash and quickly outdating raid gear. SOE, give me the option to buy even more and you will receive more of it from me. Sorry for the frankness guys, but it's not personal, it's just business.

Lempo

04-30-2012, 02:28 PM

<cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>pay to win is here, has been for a while. I don't understand why they only go half way with it. It's obviously the path SOE chooses to go down, so do it right. Let us buy gear, faction, adorns ect on the marketplace./note.. the above may contain sarcasm</blockquote>There is no reason why I should not be able to buy 2-Tick UT potions, and Time Warp potions on the marketplace now, they are selling one size fits all cure pots (that are better than ANYTHING I can get in game or that I can make with my 92 Alchemist with every crafting reward of any signifigance, if not all), tracking scrolls and the self-rez/group-rez items will be in there soon enough.No, I don't really want this stuff to be in the game but it is no different than selling items that replace healers/scouts etc.

Yimway

04-30-2012, 02:49 PM

I do enjoy that I can now play the game for free, and I have to admit I like that SoE is not against this.It is nice that I can take my extra loots to make extra coin to buy SC cards to fund my game. If anything I would like to see gifting of the actual sub time instead of redeeming cards.While I don't pay to win and I'll never do so, I do enjoy the "play-to-pay" side of this.

Gilasil

04-30-2012, 03:41 PM

Pay to win? Oh please. If it were pay to win you'd be able to buy high end raid gear on the marketplace along with a wide variety of powerful pots for healing, mana regen, rezzing, etc. For awhile I think you could buy mastercrafted on the marketplace on Freeport, but only mastercrafted and not any more.The closest things we have to pay to win are caused by the PLAYERS. SLR and SC for plat. Go after the players if that's your concern. I'd prefer it if those went away too.The worst thing that SoE does is they don't actively try to stop it. While I wish they would, I don't think that constitutes SoE making the game pay to win.

Geothe

04-30-2012, 03:58 PM

I absolutely hate the fact that SoE all but endorses the sale of SC for plat in game.I have no problem with SLR on its own. You take currency earned in game (plat) and trade it for items earned in game (gear).The whole SC for plat schemes occuring in the game currently, however, really do skew that premise. It blurs the line between plat and RL $$ even more. I honestly am not suprised by the shift, however, as it goes right along with the mindset of the current game leadership.

Lempo

04-30-2012, 04:09 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pay to win? Oh please. If it were pay to win you'd be able to buy high end raid gear on the marketplace along with a wide variety of powerful pots for healing, mana regen, rezzing, etc. For awhile I think you could buy mastercrafted on the marketplace on Freeport, but only mastercrafted and not any more.The closest things we have to pay to win are caused by the PLAYERS. SLR and SC for plat. Go after the players if that's your concern. I'd prefer it if those went away too.The worst thing that SoE does is they don't actively try to stop it. While I wish they would, I don't think that constitutes SoE making the game pay to win.</blockquote>Pots for everything that you just mentioned are on the way. The 'ninja' inclusion of a few disgusting items in the Vault of Serillis is the foot in the door for that, the second 'trial balloon' one might say, they just had a poll about this. The items that I am talking about are just some of the items that were removed with the F2P merger. SLR and SC for plat is an entirely different animal, nothing can be SLR'd that can not be earned in the game. The stuff they put on the marketplace is above and beyond what can be made in game, or just outright can not be made in game by a tradeskiller. Pots for full heal, full mana regen and rezzing are incoming and will be here by Dec 31 2012, mark my words, and bookmark this post if you didn't bookmark the other one that I made when the latest in game poll came out. The mastercrafted gear and selling of rares will be back on the marketplace too, it is only a matter of time.They just sold off a large portion of the player base to a company that has nothing but games that have the most powerful items in the game in the marketplace, you can not even be competitive in them w/o the purchase of those items. Seriously are there this many SHEEP that play this game? If you do not see the writing on the wall, you are either blind, choosing to ignore it, or lack the mental faculties to add 2+2.

Brilendar

04-30-2012, 07:13 PM

Does anyone remember god-mode on older PC games (or even consoles) where you could become invincible to damage and just kill everything in sight? Remember how you would finish a game in 1 day and you're done with it because of that?That's what I think pay-to-win is.If high end raid gear were added to the marketplace then whats the point of playing? I'll never understand the pay to win mentality because you lose out on the point of the game. Anywho I'm just rambling but carry on >.>

The_Cheeseman

04-30-2012, 11:44 PM

<cite>Brilendar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does anyone remember god-mode on older PC games (or even consoles) where you could become invincible to damage and just kill everything in sight? Remember how you would finish a game in 1 day and you're done with it because of that?That's what I think pay-to-win is.If high end raid gear were added to the marketplace then whats the point of playing? I'll never understand the pay to win mentality because you lose out on the point of the game. Anywho I'm just rambling but carry on >.></blockquote>The is the exact reason I have repeatedly referenced in the past as being why SOE will not make EQ2 pay-to-win. They want people to play their game in order to maintain market share and profitability. They know that putting top-tier gear on the marketplace will undermine the very reason for playing the game at all, which would essentially be shooting themselves in the foot. People seem to have this weird idea that SOE has some sort of secret, long-term plan to sell raid gear on the marketplace, when nothing that SOE has actually done has displayed any such motivation. In fact, they've been very conservative so far in adding anything that could be remotely considered "power items" to the market, and the fact that people are so up in arms about junk like cure potions and temporary tracking scrolls certainly justifies their trepidation.Seriously, you have to decide whether you want to portray SOE as a manipulative chessmaster villain or a bumbling comic-relief villain. Right now it just seems like people always assume that SOE's goal is to do whatever they feel is most detrimental to the success of the game, and that somehow makes sense in their tinfoil-hat worldview. SOE definitely makes their fair share of mistakes, but they aren't idiots.

Rahatmattata

05-01-2012, 04:25 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again, RMT activity is present in every MMO in varying degrees. SOE does not sanction such activity or actively participate in pay-to-win strategies. You can't blame SOE for allowing RMT to exist in EQ2, because they have no significant means of preventing it. SOE can't be held responsible for the action of EQ2's players.If RMT was capable of killing an MMO, it would have happened already. RMT existed before EQ2 launched, and it will exist as long as a subset of MMO players value their time more highly than their money (read: forever)</blockquote>The difference is in other games before eq2 like everquest and ffxi, when you buy coin you are risking your account, your identity, and becoming an outcast on the server if people find out you are a coin buyer. Square Enix would ban your credit card if caught buying coin, so you couldn't even buy a new copy of the game and use the same credit card. There was a strong deterant to engaging in RMT. Eventhough many people still did it.In eq2 no one gives a sht, people get praised server wide in world chat for being a legit plat buyer. New players ask in world chat is it really ok to trade plat/station cash because most MMO gamers are surprised such a thing would be openly allowed in a game like eq2. Just sayin.

SOE-MOD-17

05-01-2012, 09:06 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=516791&post_id=5751911" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=51679...post_id=5751911</a> Non-constructive. Please review the forum guidelines.

Gilasil

05-01-2012, 03:55 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pay to win? Oh please. If it were pay to win you'd be able to buy high end raid gear on the marketplace along with a wide variety of powerful pots for healing, mana regen, rezzing, etc. For awhile I think you could buy mastercrafted on the marketplace on Freeport, but only mastercrafted and not any more.The closest things we have to pay to win are caused by the PLAYERS. SLR and SC for plat. Go after the players if that's your concern. I'd prefer it if those went away too.The worst thing that SoE does is they don't actively try to stop it. While I wish they would, I don't think that constitutes SoE making the game pay to win.</blockquote>Pots for everything that you just mentioned are on the way. The 'ninja' inclusion of a few disgusting items in the Vault of Serillis is the foot in the door for that, the second 'trial balloon' one might say, they just had a poll about this. The items that I am talking about are just some of the items that were removed with the F2P merger. SLR and SC for plat is an entirely different animal, nothing can be SLR'd that can not be earned in the game. The stuff they put on the marketplace is above and beyond what can be made in game, or just outright can not be made in game by a tradeskiller. Pots for full heal, full mana regen and rezzing are incoming and will be here by Dec 31 2012, mark my words, and bookmark this post if you didn't bookmark the other one that I made when the latest in game poll came out. The mastercrafted gear and selling of rares will be back on the marketplace too, it is only a matter of time.They just sold off a large portion of the player base to a company that has nothing but games that have the most powerful items in the game in the marketplace, you can not even be competitive in them w/o the purchase of those items. Seriously are there this many SHEEP that play this game? If you do not see the writing on the wall, you are either blind, choosing to ignore it, or lack the mental faculties to add 2+2.</blockquote>Fine. When I see sets of high end raid gear on the marketplace. When I see high end pots (and I do NOT mean some exp or research reducer. Perhaps full heal, full mana, insane mitigation, immunity to daze/stun/root/etc., insane resistances etc. all with 10 second recast). When I see master spell scrolls for all the spells and combat arts, then maybe I'll agree with you. Until then, link or it didn't happen.I'm not talking about some rumor that he said she said they said the janitor at SoE might have mentioned that that might happen someday maybe if they're all drunk enough. I mean I open up the Marketplace window and there they are.Frankly, SoE would be crazy to put that kind of stuff on the marketplace. A lot of people would gear up, piddle around for a couple months, and then quit because they had nothing to do.As for the European players well I feel bad for them assuming all the accusations that have been made are true; but since I'm not a European player -- and most EQ2 players aren't -- I don't see how it applies to me. SoE is certainly no angel. But I don't think they've gone completely suicidal either. Which putting that kind of stuff on the marketplace would do.

SOE-MOD-02

05-01-2012, 04:45 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5752059" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5752059</a> Removed for bypassing the language filter and insults.

Lempo

05-01-2012, 05:43 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fine. When I see sets of high end raid gear on the marketplace. When I see high end pots (and I do NOT mean some exp or research reducer. Perhaps full heal, full mana, insane mitigation, immunity to daze/stun/root/etc., insane resistances etc. all with 10 second recast). When I see master spell scrolls for all the spells and combat arts, then maybe I'll agree with you. Until then, link or it didn't happen.I'm not talking about some rumor that he said she said they said the janitor at SoE might have mentioned that that might happen someday maybe if they're all drunk enough. I mean I open up the Marketplace window and there they are.Frankly, SoE would be crazy to put that kind of stuff on the marketplace. A lot of people would gear up, piddle around for a couple months, and then quit because they had nothing to do.As for the European players well I feel bad for them assuming all the accusations that have been made are true; but since I'm not a European player -- and most EQ2 players aren't -- I don't see how it applies to me. SoE is certainly no angel. But I don't think they've gone completely suicidal either. Which putting that kind of stuff on the marketplace would do.</blockquote>Do you not consider a pot that is a one size fits all cure pot for trauma, arcane, nox and elemental that can dispell 500 levels to be pretty powerful? If the answer is "NO" then you probably do not even have an understanding of what that means, or why it is so powerful. I am not talking about any he said she said this that or the other this stuff was ninja'd in into the vault of Serilis, I don't have to link it to you go look for yourself. Master spell scrolls are already there in the form of research reducers, you are just being intentionally obstinate and contrite. the research reducers allow you to pick and choose whatever spell you want to master and eliminate every bit of the wait required. You explain to me exactly how that is any different than them just putting the masters on there to begin with. just because I hand you 5 pennies, a nickel, 4 dimes and 2 quarters doesn't mean I didn't just give you a dollar. So don't tell me that research reducers do not count.You are not doing a good job here, you are striking out on every point and your point about what happens to the Euro players, as well as the U.K. players who were just lumped into that deal for whatever reason (THEY ARE NOT EURO) and how you don't see how it affects you I don't think you have the capability of understanding so I am not going to waste a lot of time explaining it to you. Short and to the point - It affects you because this game has a dwindling playerbase, the long time players that continue to bring people into the game are an important asset.Lastly, you don't know how many players are Euro based, and you probably know next to nothing about the deal or the crappy way the player base was treated from the first mention of it on Jan 12th, 2012. I know about this, I know about this in great detail.

SpineDoc

05-01-2012, 06:26 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I see master spell scrolls for all the spells and combat arts, then maybe I'll agree with you. </blockquote>I know you mentioned that research reducers are not the same, but I don't understand that, RR are the same EXACT thing as just offering the master level spell. Pay to win is already here in terms of master spells at least, there is no doubt in my mind it will be here for the rest of the game as well.

Rahatmattata

05-01-2012, 06:26 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pay to win? Oh please. If it were pay to win you'd be able to buy high end raid gear on the marketplace along with a wide variety of powerful pots for healing, mana regen, rezzing, etc. For awhile I think you could buy mastercrafted on the marketplace on Freeport, but only mastercrafted and not any more.The closest things we have to pay to win are caused by the PLAYERS. SLR and SC for plat. Go after the players if that's your concern. I'd prefer it if those went away too.The worst thing that SoE does is they don't actively try to stop it. While I wish they would, I don't think that constitutes SoE making the game pay to win.</blockquote>Pots for everything that you just mentioned are on the way. The 'ninja' inclusion of a few disgusting items in the Vault of Serillis is the foot in the door for that, the second 'trial balloon' one might say, they just had a poll about this. The items that I am talking about are just some of the items that were removed with the F2P merger. SLR and SC for plat is an entirely different animal, nothing can be SLR'd that can not be earned in the game. The stuff they put on the marketplace is above and beyond what can be made in game, or just outright can not be made in game by a tradeskiller. Pots for full heal, full mana regen and rezzing are incoming and will be here by Dec 31 2012, mark my words, and bookmark this post if you didn't bookmark the other one that I made when the latest in game poll came out. The mastercrafted gear and selling of rares will be back on the marketplace too, it is only a matter of time.They just sold off a large portion of the player base to a company that has nothing but games that have the most powerful items in the game in the marketplace, you can not even be competitive in them w/o the purchase of those items. Seriously are there this many SHEEP that play this game? If you do not see the writing on the wall, you are either blind, choosing to ignore it, or lack the mental faculties to add 2+2.</blockquote>Fine. When I see sets of high end raid gear on the marketplace. When I see high end pots (and I do NOT mean some exp or research reducer.</blockquote>Why would you not consider research reduction potions powerful? You can use them to purchase masters with real life money, and there is nothing higher quality than masters (besides grandmaster ofc).

Dasein

05-01-2012, 10:27 PM

If the only way to get a master was to purchase it via a cash shop, that would be a legitimate example of pay to win. However, merely being able to reduce the research time is hardly the same. It seems like people are grasping for examples of pay to win, but really, the examples given are fairly trivial - more pay for convenience than pay to win.

sorie67

05-01-2012, 10:56 PM

It's slowly getting there, but not fully blown yet but getting there. If anyone remembers there was an in game poll asking would we accept a resurrection potion if sold on marketplace, I voted no to it but I know they going to put it on marketplace anyway later on. The poll was to fool us thinking we had a say so. If they don't put the rez potion on marketplace then I admit I was wrong. Still though I am looking for another game to replace this one. Grouping is totally gone and yes I did like PUG. Guild okay but they can't always be there for you, so thats where I do PUG. I am no soloer and this game anymore is Soloing. I only solo on days where i have 1 or 2 hours to play. Other days where i have time, I grouped even if I died not getting to end at I say got some experience out of it.I don't care if someone disagrees with me anymore I past that now.

ET3D2

05-02-2012, 11:39 AM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>and your average player loses because he's taking the chump way of playing the game legit while everyone else "cheats"</blockquote>Others have commented about this, but I'll ask again. How does the average player lose by playing "legit"? This implies that the average player wants to buy everything, just doesn't have the money.Not to mention that it's not "everyone else" cheating. It's a subset of players who're willing to pay that money. There's another subset of players which are subscribers who "pay to win" by being able to use a lot of stuff that other players can't.As I see it, EQ2 is "pay to win" in the sense that free players have a hard time at the high levels due to limitations. Other than this I don't understand why anyone should have a problem with some players buying what they've worked for.

Tylia

05-02-2012, 12:15 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fine. When I see sets of high end raid gear on the marketplace. When I see high end pots (and I do NOT mean some exp or research reducer. Perhaps full heal, full mana, insane mitigation, immunity to daze/stun/root/etc., insane resistances etc. all with 10 second recast). When I see master spell scrolls for all the spells and combat arts, then maybe I'll agree with you. Until then, link or it didn't happen.I'm not talking about some rumor that he said she said they said the janitor at SoE might have mentioned that that might happen someday maybe if they're all drunk enough. I mean I open up the Marketplace window and there they are.Frankly, SoE would be crazy to put that kind of stuff on the marketplace. A lot of people would gear up, piddle around for a couple months, and then quit because they had nothing to do.As for the European players well I feel bad for them assuming all the accusations that have been made are true; but since I'm not a European player -- and most EQ2 players aren't -- I don't see how it applies to me. SoE is certainly no angel. But I don't think they've gone completely suicidal either. Which putting that kind of stuff on the marketplace would do.</blockquote>Do you not consider a pot that is a one size fits all cure pot for trauma, arcane, nox and elemental that can dispell 500 levels to be pretty powerful? If the answer is "NO" then you probably do not even have an understanding of what that means, or why it is so powerful. I am not talking about any he said she said this that or the other this stuff was ninja'd in into the vault of Serilis, I don't have to link it to you go look for yourself. Master spell scrolls are already there in the form of research reducers, you are just being intentionally obstinate and contrite. the research reducers allow you to pick and choose whatever spell you want to master and eliminate every bit of the wait required. You explain to me exactly how that is any different than them just putting the masters on there to begin with. just because I hand you 5 pennies, a nickel, 4 dimes and 2 quarters doesn't mean I didn't just give you a dollar. So don't tell me that research reducers do not count.You are not doing a good job here, you are striking out on every point and your point about what happens to the Euro players, as well as the U.K. players who were just lumped into that deal for whatever reason (THEY ARE NOT EURO) and how you don't see how it affects you I don't think you have the capability of understanding so I am not going to waste a lot of time explaining it to you. Short and to the point - It affects you because this game has a dwindling playerbase, the long time players that continue to bring people into the game are an important asset.Lastly, you don't know how many players are Euro based, and you probably know next to nothing about the deal or the crappy way the player base was treated from the first mention of it on Jan 12th, 2012. I know about this, I know about this in great detail.</blockquote>The potions are no longer in the vault, at least I don't see them. Wasn't the reuse on them something like 15 min? I wouldn't consider them to be seriously overpowerd with such a long reuse. The fact that they cured up to 500 levels was just laughably extreme. What is the highest level of mobs in the game? In my opinion, those potions were nothing more than a waste of money. The new level 91 potions in the game dispel up to 112 levels and are available with out any real money output (just material and fuel cost if you have an alchy), and you can use quite a few in the 15 min that someone with the marketplace potions has to wait to reuse theirs.I voted NO on all my characters to the poll about this type of thing, but honestly, I don't think that is going to matter much. I just don't think that the cure potions were that overpowerd. I don't remember what other potions were in the vault, so I can't comment on those.

Gaeablock

05-02-2012, 12:58 PM

You're out of your mind if you think the research reducers are simply pay for convenience.Most of the T10 masters have 1-2 copies on broker if ANY and the few on there are going for the natural luxury price of such an item.The research reducer on the other hand buys those T10 masters instantly. Even if they haven't been discoed on the server yet. You're being blatantly obtuse to look as if you have a functioning intellect. Good thing mine appears to function at a higher level.

Piestro

05-02-2012, 12:58 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>The potions are no longer in the vault, at least I don't see them. </blockquote>The potions were put in on accident and quickly removed. If we do decide to reintroduce consumables we'll certainly mention it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lempo

05-02-2012, 01:19 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you not consider a pot that is a one size fits all cure pot for trauma, arcane, nox and elemental that can dispell 500 levels to be pretty powerful? If the answer is "NO" then you probably do not even have an understanding of what that means, or why it is so powerful. I am not talking about any he said she said this that or the other this stuff was ninja'd in into the vault of Serilis, I don't have to link it to you go look for yourself. </blockquote>The potions are no longer in the vault, at least I don't see them. Wasn't the reuse on them something like 15 min? I wouldn't consider them to be seriously overpowerd with such a long reuse. The fact that they cured up to 500 levels was just laughably extreme. What is the highest level of mobs in the game? In my opinion, those potions were nothing more than a waste of money. The new level 91 potions in the game dispel up to 112 levels and are available with out any real money output (just material and fuel cost if you have an alchy), and you can use quite a few in the 15 min that someone with the marketplace potions has to wait to reuse theirs.I voted NO on all my characters to the poll about this type of thing, but honestly, I don't think that is going to matter much. I just don't think that the cure potions were that overpowerd. I don't remember what other potions were in the vault, so I can't comment on those.</blockquote>The reuse was 15 seconds iirc, I can double check again later today, I better still have 5 uses to test (or they can have the 5 uses back for 100SC I won't use them in any meaningful situation anyway, but they can not simply vanish from my bag) to see if they did curses or not. By your reply you obviously do not understand what cure 500 levels means. Let me explain, if you had 5 detriments on you from level 98 mobs one use of this potion would wipe all of them away. That is what the 500 levels means it doesn't mean only clearing the detriment of a level 500 mob.Actually<a href="http://eq2wire.com/2012/04/30/stationcash-cure-and-luck-potions-pay-to-win/#comments">http://eq2wire.com/2012/04/30/stati...o-win/#comments</a>Here is a screenshot of one it is in fact 15 seconds.@Piestro,Whether or not these were put in by mistake is a moot point for now, they were removed (at least for the time being) that's all that matters.This type of insanely overpowered item should never have been in the marketplace to begin with, even on Freeport. This can not be made in game, no Alchemist recipe even approaches the strength of this item, no reward for anything in the game, nothing, the only way anything of this nature could be obtained is by shelling out $ for items that were extremely powerful, powerful enough to make the difference in success 15 minutes into a pull on an extremely difficult mob vs failure, while it not being possible with what is available to you as a player in the game.This is the epitome of Pay-2-Win, in a form that seems completely innocuous. Tylia didn't understand it, as I am sure many, many others wouldn't either. The research reducers are too, some masters not disco'd yet on the server, players should not be fully mastered already, but they are, because they essentially slid some money under the table, a bribe one might say and were given something that they really shouldn't have access to at that point.

Tylia

05-02-2012, 01:30 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you not consider a pot that is a one size fits all cure pot for trauma, arcane, nox and elemental that can dispell 500 levels to be pretty powerful? If the answer is "NO" then you probably do not even have an understanding of what that means, or why it is so powerful. I am not talking about any he said she said this that or the other this stuff was ninja'd in into the vault of Serilis, I don't have to link it to you go look for yourself. </blockquote>The potions are no longer in the vault, at least I don't see them. Wasn't the reuse on them something like 15 min? I wouldn't consider them to be seriously overpowerd with such a long reuse. The fact that they cured up to 500 levels was just laughably extreme. What is the highest level of mobs in the game? In my opinion, those potions were nothing more than a waste of money. The new level 91 potions in the game dispel up to 112 levels and are available with out any real money output (just material and fuel cost if you have an alchy), and you can use quite a few in the 15 min that someone with the marketplace potions has to wait to reuse theirs.I voted NO on all my characters to the poll about this type of thing, but honestly, I don't think that is going to matter much. I just don't think that the cure potions were that overpowerd. I don't remember what other potions were in the vault, so I can't comment on those.</blockquote>The reuse was 15 seconds iirc, I can double check again later today, I better still have 5 uses to test (or they can have the 5 uses back for 100SC I won't use them in any meaningful situation anyway, but they can not simply vanish from my bag) to see if they did curses or not. By your reply you obviously do not understand what cure 500 levels means. Let me explain, if you had 5 detriments on you from level 98 mobs one use of this potion would wipe all of them away. That is what the 500 levels means it doesn't mean only clearing the detriment of a level 500 mob.Actually<a href="http://eq2wire.com/2012/04/30/stationcash-cure-and-luck-potions-pay-to-win/#comments">http://eq2wire.com/2012/04/30/stati...o-win/#comments</a>Here is a screenshot of one it is in fact 15 seconds.@Piestro,Whether or not these were put in by mistake is a moot point for now, they were removed (at least for the time being) that's all that matters.This type of insanely overpowered item should never have been in the marketplace to begin with, even on Freeport. This can not be made in game, no Alchemist recipe even approaches the strength of this item, no reward for anything in the game, nothing, the only way anything of this nature could be obtained is by shelling out $ for items that were extremely powerful, powerful enough to make the difference in success 15 minutes into a pull on an extremely difficult mob vs failure, while it not being possible with what is available to you as a player in the game.This is the epitome of Pay-2-Win, in a form that seems completely innocuous. Tylia didn't understand it, as I am sure many, many others wouldn't either. The research reducers are too, some masters not disco'd yet on the server, players should not be fully mastered already, but they are, because they essentially slid some money under the table, a bribe one might say and were given something that they really shouldn't have access to at that point.</blockquote>Ok Lempo. Gottcha. Thanks. I was a bit confused on the level thing with the potions, and a 15 sec recast is a huge difference from the 15 min I was thinking of. (I don't know where I got that idea from anyway)@Piestro, That's good to know and thanks for the info! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lempo

05-02-2012, 01:41 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok Lempo. Gottcha. Thanks. I was a bit confused on the level thing with the potions, and a 15 sec recast is a huge difference from the 15 min I was thinking of. (I don't know where I got that idea from anyway)@Piestro, That's good to know and thanks for the info! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I think you go the 15 minutes from the in game poll where they were asking about selling itmes like self rez/rez pots, full power and full heal pots, those were 15 minutes I do believe and regardless of the recast timer just as insanely overpowered as the cure pots were, powerful enough to make the difference in a successful pull or a failed pull, with no in game item craftable, or ability with the same strength.GAME CHANGING ITEMS.not yelling at you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Just trying to get the point across so the crowd that says "meh, it is no big deal" might actually get the point that when we call it Pay-2-Win we are not simply being sensationalist about it.

Laenai

05-02-2012, 01:45 PM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>OMG you people are still QQing over SLR... I don't see how it is hurting you other then maybe you don't somehow have the plat to buy it. It is a three way win. SOE wins buy people buying SC to get plat, Soloer/casual player wins by getting raid loot and the raider wins by getting even more plat and helping out the server by gearing more people for you to group with. So quit QQing about none issue and find some more important to QQ about.</blockquote>or,SOE loses as the population whittles away, solo/casual players win because anything better than solo/casual gear is win and the population doesn't matter, raiders lose because people buy gear so they don't have to raid for it resulting in fewer raiders, and your average player loses because he's taking the chump way of playing the game legit while everyone else "cheats"</blockquote>Actually, SoE loses players because the content has become poor, week-long fiascos of bugs that are supposed to keep us entertained for several months when it hardly lasts us several days.Raiders are losing because older players are leaving the game bored out of their minds and newer players don't have nearly the quality of game knowledge needed to keep up. Thankfully, the newer raid content is so ridiculously easy that you don't have to do much to kill it.The average player loses because he's generally pretty casual, doesn't want to learn much about his class, and never really gets good enough to replace ye olde min-maxers who've left for greener pastures or he doesn't want to put in the time necessary to raid to get gear, doesn't put in the time to make money, and instead of figuring out how to do either one to advance himself, comes to the forums to cry and priss and moan about how others make too much plat and buy gear with it and what terrible people they are because they can do it and he can't.

Tylia

05-02-2012, 01:51 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok Lempo. Gottcha. Thanks. I was a bit confused on the level thing with the potions, and a 15 sec recast is a huge difference from the 15 min I was thinking of. (I don't know where I got that idea from anyway)@Piestro, That's good to know and thanks for the info! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I think you go the 15 minutes from the in game poll where they were asking about selling itmes like self rez/rez pots, full power and full heal pots, those were 15 minutes I do believe and regardless of the recast timer just as insanely overpowered as the cure pots were, powerful enough to make the difference in a successful pull or a failed pull, with no in game item craftable, or ability with the same strength.GAME CHANGING ITEMS.not yelling at you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />Just trying to get the point across so the crowd that says "meh, it is no big deal" might actually get the point that when we call it Pay-2-Win we are not simply being sensationalist about it.</blockquote>You're probably right on where I got the 15 min recast idea from. In any case, I absolutely hate the idea that this game may turn in to nothing more than one of those Asian so called "free to play" games where you have to constantly buy things from the cash shop just to play. I cringed when this game went "free to play", because my impression of one of "those types of games" is not exactly favorable. I consider EQ2 much classier than that. I know that over the years, things change and we have to learn to adapt and change with them, but sometimes change is defnitely not for the better. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />

Xxagamortathis

05-02-2012, 02:21 PM

Well said, Gravy. The times they are a'changing. This applies to all things, even MMOs. IMHO, if you find the kind of people you want to play with none of the "pay to win" stuff really matters. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of decent people out there to play with that will distribute all loot fairly. I should know, I play with them all the time.

Dasein

05-02-2012, 02:50 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me explain, if you had 5 detriments on you from level 98 mobs one use of this potion would wipe all of them away. That is what the 500 levels means it doesn't mean only clearing the detriment of a level 500 mob.</blockquote>While clearing 500 levels of detriments may seem powerful, in actuality, it is highly unlikely you'd ever get the full value out of the potion. Most encounters with non-trivial, curable detriments do not have more than one cast at a single time - they may be cast closely together, but rarely do you see more than one non-trivial, curable detrimental effect landing at the same time.Given that the standard UI includes click-to-cure, and healers have a wealth of cures and many classes get some self-cures, there doesn't seem to be much need for a potion like this. At a solo level, most detriments are trivial, and those that aren't can be handled with regular potions. At heroic and raid levels, you've got healers to handle cures, and regular cure potions work just fine as a backup.Thus, the actual use you'd get out of this potion is going to be equivilent to a regular cure potion most of the time, except if you blow it on trivial cures, it actually costs you money.If anything, people should be upset that this item is effectively a scam, it provides virtually no real benefit.

JWinnard

05-02-2012, 03:01 PM

<cite>Gravy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even though devs say they are not doing pay to win, it is the current trend in MMOs.Eve Online is full pay to win. You can take your paycheck, buy PLEX from the official Eve website. Sell that PLEX in the ingame market for isk. Use that isk to buy a highly skilled toon via the official forums and use the left over isk to buy a powerful ship via the ingame market.So in Eve, which is arguably the most hard core pvp game out there, you can take your paycheck and in a few hours you can be an elite player.GW2 has a similar setup going. Right now it doesn't look like ArenaNet will allow characters to be bought and sold officially but you can bet that people will be using Gems to buy power leveling.There are a couple of issues about this that are interesting.1. Why does anyone care? Outside of pvp, why do you care how someone got their gear? All I care about is how they fight now that they are beside me in a group. How you got to the group is meaningless. What you do in the group means everything.2. Without the system that is being used officially by CCP and ArenaNet and unofficially by SoE, you'd still have the same things going on. People would still buy plat only via 3rd party websites. Those are even more risky. People would still use that plat to buy powerleveling and loot rights. At least when its enabled by the devs there is more security in the transaction.3. The issue of limiting loot rights to those present during the kill (as mentioned by the OP) is a possible alternative. But it has problems too. What if a player gets disconnected during a fight? How do you know guilds won't start building 23 player raids and selling the last spot to someone with a guarantee of one awesome item or your money back?Even Diablo, the king of hack and slash games is going the way of pay to win in Diablo 3.At the end of the day the old style of grinding out killing mobs until you get the item you wanted is probably gone. Now, things like titles and Achievement rewards are maybe the last glimpse of a system where you could tell by looking at someone how much time they invested in their character. See this thread of the reward for 5000 quests for a good example.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=517853" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=517853</a></blockquote>I agree with you on the most part, I find this trend in gamming the worst possible thing that can happen to gaming. Items and things that should have been included in the games to begin with are being released as DLC content or micro transactions. I find this extreemly disturbing. The days of the expansion pack are gone to be replaced by micro transactoions and DLC's that should have been apart of the original product..sad very sad.

JWinnard

05-02-2012, 03:04 PM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite><blockquote>...So in Eve, which is arguably the most hard core pvp game out there, you can take your paycheck and in a few hours you can be an elite player....</blockquote>I beg to differ. You can take your paycheck and buy the trappings and appearance of an elite player but you won't be an elite player.First time you get into a fight and get your butt munched it'll more than obvious you're not an elite player.</blockquote>Thats goes with any game though. However eve does have a learning curve that is a lot higher than most MMO's, but the point is still a valid one.

ReddyKY

05-02-2012, 03:06 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me explain, if you had 5 detriments on you from level 98 mobs one use of this potion would wipe all of them away. That is what the 500 levels means it doesn't mean only clearing the detriment of a level 500 mob.</blockquote>While clearing 500 levels of detriments may seem powerful, in actuality, it is highly unlikely you'd ever get the full value out of the potion. Most encounters with non-trivial, curable detriments do not have more than one cast at a single time - they may be cast closely together, but rarely do you see more than one non-trivial, curable detrimental effect landing at the same time.Given that the standard UI includes click-to-cure, and healers have a wealth of cures and many classes get some self-cures, there doesn't seem to be much need for a potion like this. At a solo level, most detriments are trivial, and those that aren't can be handled with regular potions. At heroic and raid levels, you've got healers to handle cures, and regular cure potions work just fine as a backup.Thus, the actual use you'd get out of this potion is going to be equivilent to a regular cure potion most of the time, except if you blow it on trivial cures, it actually costs you money.If anything, people should be upset that this item is effectively a scam, it provides virtually no real benefit.</blockquote>Let's just ignore the fact that he was obviously talking about heroic and raid level content...Since you seem to be so knowledgable as to weigh the "value" of these potions...please tell me...what is the reuse on the alchemist made potions?

Lempo

05-02-2012, 04:48 PM

<cite>ReddyKY wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's just ignore the fact that he was obviously talking about heroic and raid level content...Since you seem to be so knowledgable as to weigh the "value" of these potions...please tell me...what is the reuse on the alchemist made potions?</blockquote>I should KNOW off the top of my head being a master alchemist lol, but I can't say for certain.The reuse on the alchemy pots is the same 15 secs I am pretty sure.Click to cure yeah no big deal if cure pots were put on the SC shop that had a 20 sec reuse timer and dispelled the same # of levels worth of detriments. I don't care about the fact that it was a one size fits all detriments potion what bothered me is that it could do in one reuse timer what I couldn't do in 4.Even on a non heroic encounter it is possible to get 2 detriments that in many cases mean you are going down if you only have a cure pot, unless you have one of the 'cure pots of unparalleled power' that cure 500 levels.The item that really provides no real benefit is the 25% boost to coin loot (only body coin loot), that is what provides no real benefit.

Regolas

05-02-2012, 06:47 PM

At the end of the day, the only way SC items can be classified as pay to win is if it's items you MUST HAVE in order to progress in the game that you CAN'T get from any other means. I disagreed with the pots, only because I don't like spending SC on anything and I don't agree with people buying an advantage for real cash. But it's not like you can't get similar from crafting. I can't complete some content because of my class, gear, playtime and many other reasons. Others can, and that's fine. It DOESN'T EFFECT ME. If someone has paid SC to quicken the research of their Master spells it will actually benefit me in a group. If someone has raided and got full PoW gear it will benefit me if we group. If someone BOUGHT OUTRIGHT Master spells from the SC shop and I waited until they dropped from a chest, how does that effect me? It doesn't really matter where they got it, in a years time anyone who wants them will have them for cheap anyway. There are many ways someone could become more powerful than me in this game. As long as SC purchases aren't forced on people in order to progress, I don't think it's that big a deal.

Lempo

05-02-2012, 06:59 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the end of the day, the only way SC items can be classified as pay to win is if it's items you MUST HAVE in order to progress in the game that you CAN'T get from any other means. I disagreed with the pots, only because I don't like spending SC on anything and I don't agree with people buying an advantage for real cash. But it's not like you can't get similar from crafting. There are many ways someone could become more powerful than me in this game. As long as SC purchases aren't forced on people in order to progress, I don't think it's that big a deal.</blockquote>WOWI really mean WOW.You can't even get anything remotely close from crafting.One of the SC cure pots wil remove ANY mix of up to 5 different detriments (Arcane,Elemental,Noxious and Trauma) from a lvl 100 mob in a single click.The BEST cure pot I can make with an alchemist that has access to EVERYTHING of any consequence is I think 117 levels which is only going to remove a single detriment from a level 100 mob.Both have a 15 second reuse timer. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS SIMILAR ABOUT THEMThat is the problem with them having polls in game asking players what they think about this, the majority of the people responding do not have enough of an understanding of the mechanics to where they can make an intelligent decision. As for your last sentence it isn't only if the items are forced to require progression. If the items are so ridiculously overpowered in relation to what is available naturally in the game that they alone can make the difference between a wipe and success where no amount of skill could intervene then you have pay-2-win as well.

Regolas

05-02-2012, 07:08 PM

But does it really make the difference between wipe or not that "no amount of skill" will prevent. I think not. If you're relying on cure pots instead of priests to cure then your strat is wrong. Cure pots of any level of overpoweredness will not mean people can steamroll content. In certain, very small circumstances it may help, but no more so than a priest casting a cure or using a tradeskilled pot (of which I have never used or found the need to use)

Dasein

05-02-2012, 07:10 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the end of the day, the only way SC items can be classified as pay to win is if it's items you MUST HAVE in order to progress in the game that you CAN'T get from any other means. I disagreed with the pots, only because I don't like spending SC on anything and I don't agree with people buying an advantage for real cash. But it's not like you can't get similar from crafting. There are many ways someone could become more powerful than me in this game. As long as SC purchases aren't forced on people in order to progress, I don't think it's that big a deal.</blockquote>WOWI really mean WOW.You can't even get anything remotely close from crafting.One of the SC cure pots wil remove ANY mix of up to 5 different detriments (Arcane,Elemental,Noxious and Trauma) from a lvl 100 mob in a single click.The BEST cure pot I can make with an alchemist that has access to EVERYTHING of any consequence is I think 117 levels which is only going to remove a single detriment from a level 100 mob.Both have a 15 second reuse timer. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS SIMILAR ABOUT THEMThat is the problem with them having polls in game asking players what they think about this, the majority of the people responding do not have enough of an understanding of the mechanics to where they can make an intelligent decision. As for your last sentence it isn't only if the items are forced to require progression. If the items are so ridiculously overpowered in relation to what is available naturally in the game that they alone can make the difference between a wipe and success where no amount of skill could intervene then you have pay-2-win as well.</blockquote>What you are forgetting is that there are no situations where you need to cure 5 level 100 detriments. It's rare to need to cure more than 1 at any given time. Sure, you may see multiple curable detriments on you at once, but many of those are trivial, and thus can be ignored (and even if cured, will likely be back soon after). You are falling into the trap of examining the power of an item out of the context of the game. No single item in this game has any inherent utility or power - the only possible way to judge the merits of any item, ability or other thing is within the context of the game. Thus, if an item presents a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, it is worthless, not powerful.

Lempo

05-02-2012, 07:17 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>But does it really make the difference between wipe or not that "no amount of skill" will prevent. I think not. If you're relying on cure pots instead of priests to cure then your strat is wrong. Cure pots of any level of overpoweredness will not mean people can steamroll content. In certain, very small circumstances it may help, but no more so than a priest casting a cure or using a tradeskilled pot (of which I have never used or found the need to use)</blockquote>Do you raid?If YES did you raid before this easy mode junk they slapped together for Dov pt2?HM raids?Really? Are you gonna tell me not once did you ever find a situation where you either had to pot cure or die EVER?No I don't have to pot cure often, there are times when you get knocked out of range, where you had an existing detriment and got a trauma from the KB now you are out of range and cant run back to healer range, you can pot cure but which one? If you KNOW because you know the fight then you might make it, if you have >400 levels of cur to spare then all you have to do is click you have PAID for an advantage that give you a HUGE edge over another player. Anything as overpowered as this has a big impact.

Regolas

05-02-2012, 07:28 PM

Lempo, No I don't raid on eq2, I've been in 2 pick up raids in this game and that's it, but did on eq1 5 days a week. I accept that it CAN have a use, but you can't tell me that a raid leaders strat for a mob is to use cure pots surely? If that's the case, I personally think it's the wrong strat. It may save you from wipe one time, but I doubt it's the ONLY way to defeat the encounter.

Dasein

05-02-2012, 07:30 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>But does it really make the difference between wipe or not that "no amount of skill" will prevent. I think not. If you're relying on cure pots instead of priests to cure then your strat is wrong. Cure pots of any level of overpoweredness will not mean people can steamroll content. In certain, very small circumstances it may help, but no more so than a priest casting a cure or using a tradeskilled pot (of which I have never used or found the need to use)</blockquote>Do you raid?If YES did you raid before this easy mode junk they slapped together for Dov pt2?HM raids?Really? Are you gonna tell me not once did you ever find a situation where you either had to pot cure or die EVER?No I don't have to pot cure often, there are times when you get knocked out of range, where you had an existing detriment and got a trauma from the KB now you are out of range and cant run back to healer range, you can pot cure but which one? If you KNOW because you know the fight then you might make it, if you have >400 levels of cur to spare then all you have to do is click you have PAID for an advantage that give you a HUGE edge over another player. Anything as overpowered as this has a big impact.</blockquote>Sure, there were a few fights in HM DoV where KBs could cause a careless player to get knocked out of range at the same time some other detriment landed, but those situations were more the result of poor positioning or DPS being overzealous and not jousting when they should. Really, you seem to be reaching to find and example - if the best you can come up with is the occasional HM raid fight, then already these potions are a non-issue for the vast majority of the playerbase that will never see an HM raid, and seeing as how people took down HM raids just fine without these potions, your argument is entirely hypothetical.

Lempo

05-02-2012, 07:36 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lempo, No I don't raid on eq2, I've been in 2 pick up raids in this game and that's it, but did on eq1 5 days a week. I accept that it CAN have a use, but you can't tell me that a raid leaders strat for a mob is to use cure pots surely? If that's the case, I personally think it's the wrong strat. It may save you from wipe one time, but I doubt it's the ONLY way to defeat the encounter.</blockquote>You are right here, a raid leaders strategy is not to use cure pots for cures.BUTIf you raid you should maintain a reasonable stack of cure pots that way you have them if and when you need them.For instance in SF one of the fights in there required someone running around the room to handle some eggs, it could be done solo, but you would be out of heal range, so you needed pots, your healer in your group can get killed and you could need pots. Generally healers will keep heals and cures under control, things can happen and when they do go awry a skilled player can make the difference, and a cure pot that can remove 5 detriments at once where all others are limited to a single detriment is VERY unbalancing.

Regolas

05-02-2012, 07:36 PM

Woot Dasein, someone on my side! /highfive

Regolas

05-02-2012, 07:38 PM

So Lempo, that SF situation, could your TS pots not do the same job?

Lempo

05-02-2012, 07:44 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure, there were a few fights in HM DoV where KBs could cause a careless player to get knocked out of range at the same time some other detriment landed, but those situations were more the result of poor positioning or DPS being overzealous and not jousting when they should. Really, you seem to be reaching to find and example - if the best you can come up with is the occasional HM raid fight, then already these potions are a non-issue for the vast majority of the playerbase that will never see an HM raid, and seeing as how people took down HM raids just fine without these potions, your argument is entirely hypothetical.</blockquote>What about when you get knocked back and couldnt move due to an incurable arcane stun?What about when you are working on a progression mob that you have little or no knowledge of?You are the one that seems to be reaching to find an excuse for why these things shouldn't matter regardless of the power of them, I am saying hey wait a minute this does 5 times the work of what I can get in game, something is wrong.My argument is not hypothetical just because people took HM raids down w/o these pots, these could make the difference between a guild that can't quite get there because of overall player skill level/heals/cures/DPS/positioning/jousting and give them a way to pay for making a mistake rather than suffering the consequences, you know as in a wipe 25 minutes into a fight.

Lempo

05-02-2012, 07:50 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>So Lempo, that SF situation, could your TS pots not do the same job?</blockquote>NOI am pretty sure that I got 2 detriments on me at once during the runs around taking out the eggs. one detriment was bad and one was not very good. I could pot cure the very bad one cand if the eggs came up and I had a target to hit I could fire off Dark Siphoning which most of the time would heal me enough, but not always.I am not sure what you are having a problem understandingThe one that is in question about being overpowered would ALL AT THE SAME TIME WITH A SINGLE CLICK cure 5 different detrimentals. my TS pots could only cure 1 and then the remaining 3 types all shared the same 15 second reuse timer.I am not being rude but how hard is it to see the difference in power between these 2 items?

Lempo

05-02-2012, 07:53 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Woot Dasein, someone on my side! /highfive</blockquote>Just because you found someone that has as little understanding as you in the game mechanic in question here is no reason to celebrate.That is not meant to be an insult.look at it like this one of these is a regular cure pot, the other is a cure pot+steroids+amphetamines and 2 other performance enhancing drugs.Now go high 5 some more.

Regolas

05-02-2012, 08:10 PM

Saying I have little understanding is an insult whichever way you try and sugar coat it. But I don't claim to know everything like you do. So for this SF raid... Why can't a priest who can cure do this part for the raid? It's a moot point anyway as no one will ever do it as SF is useless since DoV came out. But if you must have the final say, maybe it is just lazy itemisation putting 500 levels of cure on the pot. I'm still to be convinced however that it is game breaking as there's many ways to skin a cat.

Lempo

05-02-2012, 11:04 PM

<cite>Regolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saying I have little understanding is an insult whichever way you try and sugar coat it. But I don't claim to know everything like you do. So for this SF raid... Why can't a priest who can cure do this part for the raid? It's a moot point anyway as no one will ever do it as SF is useless since DoV came out. But if you must have the final say, maybe it is just lazy itemisation putting 500 levels of cure on the pot. I'm still to be convinced however that it is game breaking as there's many ways to skin a cat.</blockquote>I disagree that saying that is an insult, you are demonstrating it there is nothing wrong with that, and no I don't know everything never claimed to.People still prob run tox for transmute mats. The eggs were a matter of DPS, a scout was prob best because of run speed etc, but a warlock had a spell that would eliminate an element of it, 'Ancient Warlock secret', there is actually a hint in there not being smug, but there are (progression) groups that might have never done the zone and not gonna give any help here, it isn't a big secret google it if you want.It isn't that the potion is game breaking, I did not say that. I said it was overpowered. Lazy itemization? fix it make it 112 levels (I think) linke the other potions. If it is equal that is fine, I don't like it being there but it isn't game breaking or detrimental in any way if there is an equal cure pot available to save bag space, I'm an alchemist my cure pots arent worth the time that it takes to make and sell anyway, others might disagree. The advantage that it gives alone is not so extreme but in the right conditions it could enable a recovery that would not be possible otherwise. I'm done with this, if you think it is ok then that is not going to change.

The_Cheeseman

05-03-2012, 03:46 AM

Sorry Lempo, but I think you're blowing this WAY out of proportion. As I mentioned earlier, these cure potions aren't targeted at a specific type of detrimental, so if they didn't cure dramatically more levels than existing cure potions, they'd be worthless.As others have pointed out as well, it's so rare that you really need to use a potion to cure more than one detrimental at a time that even if they nuked 1,000,000 levels, it would be difficult to justify calling them overpowered. It's just not going to make a significant difference in game play at any level. I can think of no encounters in the game that would be made significantly easier by having these cure potions as opposed to the ones we already have available. Heck, I can count on my fingers the number of encounters where I have actually needed to consistently use cure potions at all (outside of soloing epic content).These potions seem to fall squarely in the "could be nice to have on occasion, but never necessary" camp, which is basically the definition of "convenience item."

Wirewhisker

05-03-2012, 05:45 AM

While the players sit, distracted and arguing, on one side of the board...Sony keeps positioning pieces on the other side.Keep arguing, folks.

Dasein

05-03-2012, 09:31 AM

<cite>Wirewhisker@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While the players sit, distracted and arguing, on one side of the board...Sony keeps positioning pieces on the other side.Keep arguing, folks.</blockquote>Right, because obviously SOE is working against us. They're out to make the worst possible decisions they can for this game.

Gaeablock

05-03-2012, 10:06 AM

Whether your ignorance is insulting to you when pointed out or not, is irrelevant.The simple matter is that you are ignorant of the actual use of these potions. Neither of you raid hardmode, neither of you are masters of game mechanics. We are and we're tellling you that these items are unbalanced.You can argue with the doctor all you want, but when he says you need to take your fat a** and go jog each day he doesn't mean it as a suggestion like wearing a blue tie. He's the expert. Here, we're the experts.

Gaeablock

05-03-2012, 10:12 AM

While SOE may not be slinking like a burglar to pilfer your goods, they are as terrible a company as EA flatout.They have told us there wouldn't be RMT in game. There is. They told us that wouldn't lead to anything that affects gameplay on the marketplace. There is. They said that none of those issues would direct us to becoming free to play. We are.You're naive of the most sickening sort if you think SOE cares one bit about maintaining you as a customer. For each customer they lose, Susie Homemaker buys $300 in SC that month. Poor SOE.

The_Cheeseman

05-03-2012, 11:56 PM

<cite>Gaeablock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whether your ignorance is insulting to you when pointed out or not, is irrelevant.The simple matter is that you are ignorant of the actual use of these potions. Neither of you raid hardmode, neither of you are masters of game mechanics. We are and we're tellling you that these items are unbalanced.You can argue with the doctor all you want, but when he says you need to take your fat a** and go jog each day he doesn't mean it as a suggestion like wearing a blue tie. He's the expert. Here, we're the experts.</blockquote>You think that you're the only one in this conversation who is qualified to make judgements about game balance? You are obviously entitled to your opinion regarding the power level of these potions, but as of now there is insufficient data to make any factual statements, so your viewpoint is no more valid than anyone else's. Unless you have earned an advanced degree in EQ2-ology, I suggest you have a bit more respect for your fellow players."The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." -Socrates

Starbuck1771

05-04-2012, 06:41 AM

<cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite><blockquote>...So in Eve, which is arguably the most hard core pvp game out there, you can take your paycheck and in a few hours you can be an elite player....</blockquote>I beg to differ. You can take your paycheck and buy the trappings and appearance of an elite player but you won't be an elite player.First time you get into a fight and get your butt munched it'll more than obvious you're not an elite player.</blockquote>Exactly. It takes skill to be Elite in EVE. You can buy any ship you want but if you don't have the experiance to go with it you'll be poded in no time and there will be no help because the best ships are in low sec.

Gravy

05-04-2012, 08:25 AM

<cite>Starbuck1771 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kahonen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gravy wrote:</cite><blockquote>...So in Eve, which is arguably the most hard core pvp game out there, you can take your paycheck and in a few hours you can be an elite player....</blockquote>I beg to differ. You can take your paycheck and buy the trappings and appearance of an elite player but you won't be an elite player.First time you get into a fight and get your butt munched it'll more than obvious you're not an elite player.</blockquote>Exactly. It takes skill to be Elite in EVE. You can buy any ship you want but if you don't have the experiance to go with it you'll be poded in no time and there will be no help because the best ships are in low sec.</blockquote>Don't believe the hype.How long do you think it takes to learn how to actually handle your ship? A few hours? Aside from pirates and griefers, most pvp in Eve is gang related. So if you're not exactly in tune with what you need to be doing you just ask a corp mate or whoever you're with in the gang.For sure, you'll lose some ships in Eve if you're a 2 week year old player flying a Sin.But guess what?You don't have to raid a zone over and over again to get another. You can just buy one with cash.Lose a few ships. Learn how to fly them. Buy a few more.Pay to win.This is why in Eve someone can hang with 7 year vets after only a few weeks of play. You don't have to grind or raid your way through the game.Learn the basics. Buy (sanctioned by the devs) a highly skilled toon. Buy (sanctioned by the devs) a high level ship and fit it. You're good to go.For example, using Eve Mon I took a new toon and looked how long it would take to have the skills to fly a Sin. 134 days. That's just to fly it - nothing about guns or anything else to fit. Using the Sin Singularity Sky fit from BattleClinic and it would take 289 days to train that fit.289 days until you could fly and fit a Sin efficiently.Or you can buy a toon that can fly it in about an hour.For sure, that toon may not understand immediately how to fly a Sin and perform its roles. But in a week maybe. Maybe two.So a person who doesn't pay to win would need to spend about 220 days (adjusting for implants) to fly a Sin. A person who does pay to win can fly it in about an hour.That is why Eve is the ultimate pay to win game.

Tollymore

05-04-2012, 07:48 PM

Kugu and EN24 are that way, fellas.

Cloudrat

05-05-2012, 07:18 AM

There is no Pay to win lol there is no winner.If you are a gold member. everything is available by questing, crafting and adventuring.There is nothing in the market that is needed to progress in the game that you can't get for yourself.

Avirodar

05-05-2012, 07:55 AM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no Pay to win lol there is no winner.If you are a gold member. everything is available by questing, crafting and adventuring.There is nothing in the market that is needed to progress in the game that you can't get for yourself.</blockquote>Your post raises an interesting point.What is pay to win? Who defines it? Who says what is, and is not, "pay to win", especially in relation to MMOs?The way I view it, in an MMO environment, "Pay-To-Win" is a term to describe the process of spending IRL cash, with the direct intention of being able to progress your character faster, or perform tasks easier, when compared to someone who is persuing the same goal[s], but is not spending the additional cash to purchase advantage.Pay-to-Win does not neccessarily mean you turn into a 800ft tall god, stomping on cities as if they are mere ants nests. In the view of some, Pay-to-Win is paying real cash to purchase a sense of "accomplishment" by being able to achieve something with your character, sooner/easier than you otherwise would have.Character progression is one of the most significant gameplay elements in EQ2. Pay-to-Win is a term more than justifed for any financially backed process that accellerates/simplifies your characters progression.

Gravy

05-05-2012, 10:29 AM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Character progression is one of the most significant gameplay elements in EQ2.</blockquote>Maybe for you.For someone who has already leveled 8 toons to max level progression might just be plain boring and old hat.What? I gotta grind out shards on another toon? Ugh.I've said it before and I'll say it again. Who cares how a toon got into the group with you. All that matters is what happens now that its in the group.

Talathion

05-05-2012, 11:02 AM

Oh no, a cure that costs 50 cents, that does the same thing a cure that costs 20 silver in game does!OMG... FULL BLOWN PAY TO WIN!I'm totally gonna spent 100 dollars to get 200 of these OP pots.

The_Cheeseman

05-05-2012, 03:41 PM

Avirodar does raise an excellent point. The first step of an argument should always involve defining the terms of the debate. In this case, what does, "pay-to-win" mean in the context of EQ2?In my opinion, "pay-to-win" in an MMO like EQ2 means using resources from outside the game to achieve goals that generally motivate players to consume the game's content (I'll call these "primary motivators"). So I'd say buying high-quality gear or permanent stat upgrades would be "pay-to-win" since advancing your character's stats and gear is among the main reasons people play the game in the first place. On the other hand, temporary boosts to exp/coin gains, resurrection scrolls, cure potions, and such items would not be pay to win, because they facilitate consuming the content as opposed to obsoleting it.As I have said previously, I believe that allowing players to spend out-of-game resources to achieve primary motivators is very detrimental to the long-term health of an MMO like EQ2, since it will accelerate player burn-out due to lack of relevant content. This is why I doubt SOE has any plans to implement such features, since they tend to like money, and killing their own game isn't exactly a wise business decision.However, convenience features--such as exp potions--merely facilitate the consumption of content, and may actually help to increase interest and investment in the game by certain types of players (casual folks who have less free time to level may get discouraged before reaching level 90 unless they can get exp potions to hasten the grind). At worst, such features can be safely ignored by those who don't like them with no negative repercussions, as EQ2 is a cooperative multiplayer experience (sorry, Nagafen folks, but if you haven't figured out that PvP wasn't really an intended play style in EQ2, I don't know what to tell you).

Avirodar

05-05-2012, 11:35 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Avirodar does raise an excellent point. The first step of an argument should always involve defining the terms of the debate. In this case, what does, "pay-to-win" mean in the context of EQ2?In my opinion, "pay-to-win" in an MMO like EQ2 means using resources from outside the game to achieve goals that generally motivate players to consume the game's content (I'll call these "primary motivators"). So I'd say buying high-quality gear or permanent stat upgrades would be "pay-to-win" since advancing your character's stats and gear is among the main reasons people play the game in the first place. On the other hand, temporary boosts to exp/coin gains, resurrection scrolls, cure potions, and such items would not be pay to win, because they facilitate consuming the content as opposed to obsoleting it.As I have said previously, I believe that allowing players to spend out-of-game resources to achieve primary motivators is very detrimental to the long-term health of an MMO like EQ2, since it will accelerate player burn-out due to lack of relevant content. This is why I doubt SOE has any plans to implement such features, since they tend to like money, and killing their own game isn't exactly a wise business decision.However, convenience features--such as exp potions--merely facilitate the consumption of content, and may actually help to increase interest and investment in the game by certain types of players (casual folks who have less free time to level may get discouraged before reaching level 90 unless they can get exp potions to hasten the grind). At worst, such features can be safely ignored by those who don't like them with no negative repercussions, as EQ2 is a cooperative multiplayer experience (sorry, Nagafen folks, but if you haven't figured out that PvP wasn't really an intended play style in EQ2, I don't know what to tell you).</blockquote>I have a couple of questions to put to you.You acknowledge that the purpose of EQ2 is to achieve goals. After all, if there was no goals to persue, nothing would have value, we would all be level 1's standing in starter areas, using EQ2 as a glorified IRC. You also acknowledge that progressing your character is a significant goal to inspire players to put time into MMOs. (note: There are many ways to progress a character, not just via adventure level, but adventure level is the most definitive example to make.)What people view as being worthwhile goals to persue, will differ from player to player. But the fundamental basis of game design is: "If you want the reward/accomplishment, invest the time to get it". When that fundamental basis changes to facilitate "If you want the reward/accomplishment, invest the cash to purchase it", or alternatively, "If you want it faster, invest the cash to get it sooner", the nature of the game has changed. Even if it does not affect every facet of every gameplay style, it is still there.So I would like to know, what you percieve as the differences between : 1) Buying a potion to gain EXP twice as fast as someone else.2) Buying a potion of EXP and Vitality, paying even more cash, to level faster than option #1?3) Simply purchasing the max level, no levelling required?Paying real cash, to reduce (or entirely bypass) the requirements to achieve a Primary Motivator, is paying to reduce the amount of game content a player must participate in. It is my personal view, this is paying to "win", where "win" represents the accomplishment of a desired task.Because of this, I am of the opinion that EQ2 is "Pay-to-Win", where it was not before the Cash Shop. While EQ2 is not as heavily "Pay-to-Win" orientated as some other game titles (which take it further, or even to the extreme), I call it how I see it. And I see it as "Pay-to-Win".As we both touched on, there is no "official" terminology for what point something is formally "Pay-to-Win". I am simply expressing my personal opinion.

Rahatmattata

05-06-2012, 10:49 AM

Ahlana

05-06-2012, 10:51 AM

<cite>Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should we also include ammunition</blockquote>Ammo is on the market....

Rahatmattata

05-06-2012, 10:55 AM

I forgot about that, and you do raise an interesting point... Personally, I don't mind if items on the marketplace are of lower quality than the "common" variety in-game. I don't know how those dungeon maker arrows stack up, but as long as they are worse than player-made arrows (which I consider "standard" or "common"), I personally don't have a problem with it.That also reminds me, I use the dungeon maker food and drink because it has more regen than level 90 crafted food and drink, and 3% dodge on both items. It's better avoidance food than any other food in game that I know of. I don't remember if you can buy them with station cash.

The_Cheeseman

05-06-2012, 02:32 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I would like to know, what you percieve as the differences between : 1) Buying a potion to gain EXP twice as fast as someone else.2) Buying a potion of EXP and Vitality, paying even more cash, to level faster than option #1?3) Simply purchasing the max level, no levelling required?</blockquote>I feel #1 and #2 are basically the same, spending some out-of-game resources to make playing the game less time-consuming or more convenient. The difference is just one of magnitude. However, #3 is quite different, in that you have entirely bypassed a large portion of the game's content.In my opinion, there is a big difference in progressing faster, and just skipping to the end. Think of it like reading a book. People who read faster can finish more books in the same amount of time, thereby enjoying a greater number of stories than a slow reader. However, if you just read the first page and the last page, you may know how it begins and ends, but you miss all the interesting parts in the middle. You'll be able to complete a lot more books that way, but you're missing out on the entire point of reading a book in the first place.So basically, things that help to hasten the consumption of content, such as exp potions, still force you to go out and play the game. Yes, you'll level faster than other folks by using them, but you're still out in the world, killing MOBs, exploring dungeons, meeting other people, etc. Just buying a fully-leveled character skips all that and leaves you with no investment into the character, no direction, and no support network (assuming a new player).To use a sports analogy: exp potions are like building a faster race car, self-rez scrolls/cure potions are like hiring a more efficient pit crew. Buying a level 90 character or raid gear is like just being handed the trophy. One method still forces you to run the race (even if you have an advantage), the other just gives you the reward without really doing anything to earn it. And in the case of a game such as EQ2, having an advantage doesn't really matter, since it's not a competition. Everybody can get a trophy if they finish the race.

Avirodar

05-06-2012, 03:11 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I would like to know, what you percieve as the differences between : 1) Buying a potion to gain EXP twice as fast as someone else.2) Buying a potion of EXP and Vitality, paying even more cash, to level faster than option #1?3) Simply purchasing the max level, no levelling required?</blockquote>I feel #1 and #2 are basically the same, spending some out-of-game resources to make playing the game less time-consuming or more convenient. The difference is just one of magnitude. However, #3 is quite different, in that you have entirely bypassed a large portion of the game's content.In my opinion, there is a big difference in progressing faster, and just skipping to the end. Think of it like reading a book. People who read faster can finish more books in the same amount of time, thereby enjoying a greater number of stories than a slow reader. However, if you just read the first page and the last page, you may know how it begins and ends, but you miss all the interesting parts in the middle. You'll be able to complete a lot more books that way, but you're missing out on the entire point of reading a book in the first place.So basically, things that help to hasten the consumption of content, such as exp potions, still force you to go out and play the game. Yes, you'll level faster than other folks by using them, but you're still out in the world, killing MOBs, exploring dungeons, meeting other people, etc. Just buying a fully-leveled character skips all that and leaves you with no investment into the character, no direction, and no support network (assuming a new player).To use a sports analogy: exp potions are like building a faster race car, self-rez scrolls/cure potions are like hiring a more efficient pit crew. Buying a level 90 character or raid gear is like just being handed the trophy. One method still forces you to run the race (even if you have an advantage), the other just gives you the reward without really doing anything to earn it. And in the case of a game such as EQ2, having an advantage doesn't really matter, since it's not a competition. Everybody can get a trophy if they finish the race.</blockquote>Regarding your comparison about reading books:Buying EXP potions is like skipping every third page.Buying EXP + Vitality potions is like skipping every second page.Buying a direct to max level is like reading just the first and last page.What ever way you look at it, it is paying cash to skip pages, on a book you paid to purchase, yet still claiming you achieved the accomplishment of reading the book...You do realise that in competitive motor racing, it is all about winning? They spend everything they can to gain advantages over competitors. It is not a game, so does not make the best analogy. But as you said, in EQ2, everyone can get a trophy if they finish the "race". The question is, how many of the pages of the book are they going to read, before finishing the "race" and getting their trophy? 1/2 them? 1/2 of them? Two of them?

The_Cheeseman

05-06-2012, 03:19 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regarding your comparison about reading books:Buying EXP potions is like skipping every third page.Buying EXP + Vitality potions is like skipping every second page.Buying a direct to max level is like reading just the first and last page.What ever way you look at it, it is paying cash to skip pages, on a book you paid to purchase, yet still claiming you achieved the accomplishment of reading the book...You do realise that in competitive motor racing, it is all about winning? They spend everything they can to gain advantages over competitors. It is not a game, so does not make the best analogy. But as you said, in EQ2, everyone can get a trophy if they finish the "race". The question is, how many of the pages of the book are they going to read, before finishing the "race" and getting their trophy? 1/2 them? 1/2 of them? Two of them?</blockquote>That's not how I see it. Skipping pages seems to me more like buying "free levels" in sets of 5 or 10, or using collections to jump from level 20 to 45 or so. With exp boosting potions, you still have to level from 1-90, you just spend less total time on each level. It's not skipping content, it's just getting through it faster. I don't personally think that is a good idea, but I am more of a "smell the roses" type, and that doesn't appeal to everyone. If a person has more fun powering through the early levels as quickly as possible, they're welcome to that style. However, they still have to get through the early levels, not skip past them.