[Crafting Feedback] Please tell me this is not true... [Archive]

Whilhelmina

03-25-2012, 07:49 PM

To get it:<ul><li> you need to run the 3rd Skyshrine solo mission (level 90+, kill Tigloth the conqueror) in a SOLO instance (mercenary + you)</li><li>You don't have to finish the mission or kill any named. </li><li>You have to go into an alley, observe a fight and speak to a fallen droag ( around -405, 0, 35 )</li><li>kill 4 waves of mobs (if you die you just continue where you were killed) and then speak to the droag once again.</li><li>You'll get a no-trade, no-value, no-destroy stone that'll spawn the droag in your house (aITEM -465888017 1448364127 0:[Deshniak's Teleportation Stone]/a)</li><li>Droag gives you recipes to research of your achetype (woodworker/carpenter/provi or sage/alchemist/jeweler or armorer/ws/tailor)</li><li>recipes are 18 days and 16 hours or so. You can currently right-click and coach.</li><li>recipes are asking for boatloads of T10 rares (5+ rares per statue/item and/or skyshrine drops)</li></ul>(currently researching arcane dragon statue here)This is WRONG. In EQ2, we ALWAYS could craft without adventuring, even if there were drawbacks. Recipes could be traded (EH, Unrest, Charasis recipes) so it was possible to get them. Back in the days, tradeskill level unlocked the prerequisite to zone in an area without having done the acces quests.Adding a prerequisite of being 90/90 so late in the game is just awfully wrong.The components needed are, I hope, bugged (truckloads of T10 rares (up to 7) and/or truckloads of skyshrine drops). There doesn't seem to be any consistency there.Provi recipes are bugged (making ambrosial stuff).I would like to be able to test the arrows. Domino said it wasn't possible to make more than 750 in a batch and the recipe says 2000 so it needs testing.

NiamiDenMother

03-25-2012, 07:57 PM

The basic question is "Is being a 90/90 adventurer/crafter (or higher), the only planned way to obtain this apprentice?"If the answer is no, then several of us can breathe a bit easier, and wait for the alternative method to be discovered/patched/what have you. You can also ignore the rest of this post. ;D~~~If the answer is yes, this is how it is planned, then I respectfully request that the decision be revisited with the following in mind:EQ2 crafting has been unique in many ways, not the least of which is that it allows players who prefer to create (craft), rather than destroy (adventure) a game where they can get access to all recipes for their crafting class without adventuring. It might not be easy, it might require numerous deaths, it might require the help of adventurers, but it never required that the crafter also be a high-end adventurer. Every time new crafting content has been added, there are always numerous questions from the community that boil down to "Can a level ___ adventurer who is a high-end crafter get access to it?" It is one of the sanity checks that we, as testers, use for all things crafting, and have used as a benchmark since the start of the game. The answer might be "it is hard, but doable", but doable it was. This has been a HUGE draw to a subset of the crafting community, especially for folks who might not normally be drawn to mmorpg's. They don't want to go out and adventure. They want to be "pure" crafters. They want to be as expert in their chosen crafting profession as the level 90 raider might be in theirs. Up until this point, it has been allowed, and has lured many new players into the fold. It also isn't something that can be learned from surveys, but has been learned, over the years, by those who are part of the overall crafting community.These same folks often tend to be completionists. If there's a recipe out there for their crafting class, they want it. They'll go to sometimes-extreme lengths to get it, no matter how convoluted the process. Call it "OCD" if you must, but it is, and has been, an accepted facet of the crafting community.Making it so that there is no way, whatsoever, other than leveling their adventuring class to level 90, that they can get this apprentice, so they can research the recipes for themselves, is going to cause quite a bit of unhappiness, and I'd hate to see that level of upset caused unintentionally. (Not to mention those who have numerous crafters feeling that the game is now "forcing" them to level all of them in order for each to get an apprenticeI understand that "elite" means not everyone should be able to get it, or not without extreme difficulty, but I'm hoping that a bit of tweaking can still be done to make this a bit more palatable to the crafting community.Thanks for hearing me out. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Mum(For the record, 6 of my dozen-plus level 90 crafters on live servers are also level 90 adventurers. I don't consider myself a "pure" crafter, but with as many feelers in the crafting community as I have, I can well understand the reactions from the community on this one, and it would be great to hear SOE's take on the matter as well.)

Lenanu

03-25-2012, 08:33 PM

In my honest opinion I like the fact it requies being at least a 90/90 in order to get (its been proven that if your not at least 90 tradeskill you cannot get the apprentice). After all, there is a ton of house items out there you cannot get with crafters that are low on the adventuring side. Collections are easily bought but some are no-trade, forcing you to go out to get them yourself in sometimes high level areas. Quest rewards, sometimes you can buy them off the broker but most are no-trade as well, again requiring high level adventuring in order to get. If your a decoratior, in my honest to god opinion, its a bit redundent to remain on the low adventure side as you miss out on GREAT house items that require high levels to get. Can't expect non decorators to give up their hard earned rewards just because you don't want to go get it yourself.

Jazabelle

03-25-2012, 09:52 PM

<cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>In my honest opinion I like the fact it requies being at least a 90/90 in order to get (its been proven that if your not at least 90 tradeskill you cannot get the apprentice). After all, there is a ton of house items out there you cannot get with crafters that are low on the adventuring side. Collections are easily bought but some are no-trade, forcing you to go out to get them yourself in sometimes high level areas. Quest rewards, sometimes you can buy them off the broker but most are no-trade as well, again requiring high level adventuring in order to get. If your a decoratior, in my honest to god opinion, its a bit redundent to remain on the low adventure side as you miss out on GREAT house items that require high levels to get. Can't expect non decorators to give up their hard earned rewards just because you don't want to go get it yourself.</blockquote>Despite how it feels sometimes, crafters and decorators are not synonymous. I know of some crafters who don't decorate at all. I know of some decorators who refuse to craft. While for the most part there's overlap, they aren't necessarily identical.To be quite honest, I spent most of my decorating career as a low-level adventurer, high level crafter. Any item I needed that I couldn't get on my own could be purchased for me by my friends. If it was a looted item from a dungeon or raid instance, I could buy it off the broker, or advertise in a channel, and someone would stop by and drop the item in exchange for plat.The only crafted item I can think of that is from a raid zone that was not (wholly) raid oriented is the flower from the EoF raid. And to be quite honest, that flower really is a raid item--it teleports you to the raid area. There's an identical flower that can be purchased for status and a bit of gold on the Kelethin city merchant. It might even be crafting faction that it takes. In fact, that recipe might not even be no-trade. I can't remember.With that in mind, I'm behind Mum 100%. The entire reason I chose to play EQ2 was the fact that I could be a level 1 adventurer and be a capped crafter if I wanted. I don't like combat in EQ2. Yes, I do have three level 90 adventurers, but the only reason I have even one is because I was bullied and dragged by friends. My first 90 didn't even hit 90 until after AoD, and that was my first character at combat cap. And I've been playing since the cap was 50.The difference between the house items you cannot get as a low level adventurer and the tradeskill apprentice you cannot get as a low level adventurer is that the house items can still be obtained via other methods. You can have someone buy them for you. The tradeskill apprentice is different. If it's required that you're a level 90 adventurer, then you're being penalized for neglecting your adventuring--which was one of the selling points of the original EQ2. As I said, if you wanted to be a level 1 adventurer and a capped crafter, you could be. The lack of adventuring levels didn't stop you at all. It would be hard, sure (anyone remember trying to dodge aggro while running through Kylong Plains in order to do the Earring of the Solstice quest while everything was bright red? I remember!) but you could do it.Combat isn't for everyone. Neither is crafting. Recipes can be commissioned specifically because there are some people who won't touch crafting with a ten foot pole. Some quests require crafted items. How do adventurers get around that? They have a crafter commission it for them. There's no tradeoff like that for tradeskillers.Why is it okay to ensure that adventurers never have to craft, while possibly forcing crafters to adventure if it turns out this tradeskill apprentice can only be obtained once you're 90/90?I hope this is all much ado about nothing, and it turns out there will be a crafting method to obtain the tradeskill apprentice that we either haven't found yet, or hasn't been patched in yet. Make it a difficult, several-days long quest for all I care, just make sure that it's fair to those of us who dislike combat.Here's to hoping.

Leawyn

03-25-2012, 10:02 PM

<cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do the elite mercs require the person to be a level 90 tradeskiller to hire them? If not, then I see no reason why the elite tradeskill apprentice should require level 90 adventuring.</blockquote>I will never understand this mentality. I don't see why someone who has mastered both adventuring and tradeskilling shouldn't be allowed to aquire something neat that a pure crafter or pure adventurer wouldn't be able to attain. Just because you're a crafter doesn't mean you should have access to every single thing a crafter can do if you choose to purposely ignore half the game. In EQ1, you couldn't get your shawl or solstice earring without both adventuring and crafting. I thought it was cool, and I only ever got the shawl on one character. If this is in fact an elite apprentice that requires both adventure and crafting 90+, I might actually bother to get it. FINALLY a reward for playing the whole game!

Gneaux

03-25-2012, 11:37 PM

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HADES that I am going to level 9 adventurers to level 90 JUST to be able to have access to crafting recipes. As the leader of a crafting guild on a PVP server I have been consistantly relied upon to be able to provide goods and services to other players BECAUSE I took the time to level my crafters first! Now you are telling me that you are taking that aspect of gameplay away??? I NEVER thought I would even be thinking this,, but if that is the case,, then it might be time for me to start considering options in another game. The loss of Domino and Rothgar is becoming VERY prevalant and I shudder to think that after 7 years of dedicated game play, you are now FORCING me to PLAY YOUR WAY instead of how I have been playing this game since launch.I see no further purpose for me even testing this content.

Cloudrat

03-25-2012, 11:47 PM

No one thinks twice about adventurers who don't craft. Adventurers "tip" crafters to do their grunt work. So now we bully crafters and say they are missing out on half the game and it's only fitting they should have to adventure to get their recipes.Baloney.

Leawyn

03-25-2012, 11:52 PM

This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.

Gneaux

03-26-2012, 12:19 AM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.</blockquote>Well apparently the only way to get the next "elite apprentice" is do go do "solo zones" in skyshrine atm. Yeah right!!!Well my little level 9 wizard 90/sage/450xmuter/adorner braved the wilds of Fens of Nathsar and got the earing of solstice, and survived the Great Divide to get the prayer shawl, but apparently they are saying that our low level crafters cannot get the new apprentice because we need to be adventure level 90 to do the Skyshrine zones. Sorry Maewyn, I do not find this whole thing amusing at all, and by you doing so, you are probably one of the people who tries to haggle down crafters on their prices, and now, with this new lot of recipes that will soon become by and large "unavailable" to alot of servers as a whole, because pure adventurers don't craft, and pure crafters don't adventure,, point blank, many of these recipes will not be available. Then when we see people screaming in the channels "WTB crafter for [randon level 50 apprentice recipe] or [randon new elite apprentice recipe] these players will simply be out of luck. Most of us are STILL to this day, researching level 90 recipes on "SOME" of our apprentices. That said,, poor little player wanting level 50 junk is going to be waiting A VERY LONG TIME,, not to mention,, if anyone want any "elite recipes" made,, whats he going to do,, trade "powerleveling services" for "recipe of choice", just so said crafter can get the recipe? I can see the bargaining exploits being plotted already with this one.

Rainmare

03-26-2012, 12:21 AM

I just did it on my 90/90 and to be honest, the guy that gives the quest says that two people can go...or at least two entities. and the mobs were a cakewalk in rygorr gear...save for the last named and the trio, that you don't have to touch if you just want the apprentice.so I imagine a 90 adv can bring a 90 tser with them...the TSer is just going to have to let the adv person clear out things solo and then get to/activate the apprentice script and sit back adn let the adv do the killing.

Cloudrat

03-26-2012, 12:27 AM

Leawyn

03-26-2012, 12:29 AM

<cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.</blockquote>Well apparently the only way to get the next "elite apprentice" is do go do "solo zones" in skyshrine atm. Yeah right!!!</blockquote>Seriously, HONESTLY, do you think they would not allow crafters access to lvl 90+ apprentice spells without being a 90 adventurer?

Gneaux

03-26-2012, 12:35 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just did it on my 90/90 and to be honest, the guy that gives the quest says that two people can go...or at least two entities. and the mobs were a cakewalk in rygorr gear...save for the last named and the trio, that you don't have to touch if you just want the apprentice.so I imagine a 90 adv can bring a 90 tser with them...the TSer is just going to have to let the adv person clear out things solo and then get to/activate the apprentice script and sit back adn let the adv do the killing.</blockquote>Cakewalk in Ry'gorr gear huh? Thats all well and fine since my defiler is in some HM raid gear,, but she's not a crafter, and my armorer and jeweler are in both ry'gorr and better I suppose that would be fine, but what about the other 7 crafters who don't even want to THINK about having to equip ry'gorr armor simply to walk into an instance to get the ability to aquire more crafting recipes. Thats just nuts!Will said adventurer doing the killing also have to be a 90 crafter + in order to zone into the zone?I suppose its a good thing I have friends on my server, because it apparently looks like I might have to be calling in several favors, or tradeouts just t get my lowbies through the zone, which is complete and udder rubbish IMHO

Gneaux

03-26-2012, 12:40 AM

Bremethor Uthorzant

03-26-2012, 12:47 AM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.</blockquote>Well apparently the only way to get the next "elite apprentice" is do go do "solo zones" in skyshrine atm. Yeah right!!!</blockquote>Seriously, HONESTLY, do you think they would not allow crafters access to lvl 90+ apprentice spells without being a 90 adventurer?</blockquote> I am trying to stick up for the crafters here in saying your speaking rather hateful towards someone who is a crafter and if you want to take your anger out on someone for having an opinion maybe you should do so somewhere where they hate is welcomed and even complimented. These are only opinions and i have to agree that its sad that they are making someone who was purely a crafter to start adventuring to get an apprentice. Elite or not there are people here who have worked hard at their crafting and whether you seen to realize it or not at one time you might have needed that aid when you were lacking in a piece of gear or spell upgrade. So basically what i am trying to say here is stop being angry at other people for having an opinion that makes sense to me. There direct your anger on me since i dont' really mind taking hate from something when it protects good people from being attacked for their feelings. Personally i don't really care for this new setup at all either and i have 90s and several of them. But for those lacking 90s if there is anything i can do and i am on the Everfrost server let me know if i can help in any way since it appears that some folks just want to stir the pot and others just want to help. If there is a way or option for a level 90 to help a low level in any way i am going to jump on the oppertunity. Till then i will hold out and see what happens. Heres to hoping that 90 level crafters don't get shafted like this angry person thinks they will.

Lenanu

03-26-2012, 12:50 AM

<cite>Jazabelle@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>In my honest opinion I like the fact it requies being at least a 90/90 in order to get (its been proven that if your not at least 90 tradeskill you cannot get the apprentice). After all, there is a ton of house items out there you cannot get with crafters that are low on the adventuring side. Collections are easily bought but some are no-trade, forcing you to go out to get them yourself in sometimes high level areas. Quest rewards, sometimes you can buy them off the broker but most are no-trade as well, again requiring high level adventuring in order to get. If your a decoratior, in my honest to god opinion, its a bit redundent to remain on the low adventure side as you miss out on GREAT house items that require high levels to get. Can't expect non decorators to give up their hard earned rewards just because you don't want to go get it yourself.</blockquote>Despite how it feels sometimes, crafters and decorators are not synonymous. I know of some crafters who don't decorate at all. I know of some decorators who refuse to craft. While for the most part there's overlap, they aren't necessarily identical.To be quite honest, I spent most of my decorating career as a low-level adventurer, high level crafter. Any item I needed that I couldn't get on my own could be purchased for me by my friends. If it was a looted item from a dungeon or raid instance, I could buy it off the broker, or advertise in a channel, and someone would stop by and drop the item in exchange for plat.The only crafted item I can think of that is from a raid zone that was not (wholly) raid oriented is the flower from the EoF raid. And to be quite honest, that flower really is a raid item--it teleports you to the raid area. There's an identical flower that can be purchased for status and a bit of gold on the Kelethin city merchant. It might even be crafting faction that it takes. In fact, that recipe might not even be no-trade. I can't remember.With that in mind, I'm behind Mum 100%. The entire reason I chose to play EQ2 was the fact that I could be a level 1 adventurer and be a capped crafter if I wanted. I don't like combat in EQ2. Yes, I do have three level 90 adventurers, but the only reason I have even one is because I was bullied and dragged by friends. My first 90 didn't even hit 90 until after AoD, and that was my first character at combat cap. And I've been playing since the cap was 50.The difference between the house items you cannot get as a low level adventurer and the tradeskill apprentice you cannot get as a low level adventurer is that the house items can still be obtained via other methods. You can have someone buy them for you. The tradeskill apprentice is different. If it's required that you're a level 90 adventurer, then you're being penalized for neglecting your adventuring--which was one of the selling points of the original EQ2. As I said, if you wanted to be a level 1 adventurer and a capped crafter, you could be. The lack of adventuring levels didn't stop you at all. It would be hard, sure (anyone remember trying to dodge aggro while running through Kylong Plains in order to do the Earring of the Solstice quest while everything was bright red? I remember!) but you could do it.Combat isn't for everyone. Neither is crafting. Recipes can be commissioned specifically because there are some people who won't touch crafting with a ten foot pole. Some quests require crafted items. How do adventurers get around that? They have a crafter commission it for them. There's no tradeoff like that for tradeskillers.Why is it okay to ensure that adventurers never have to craft, while possibly forcing crafters to adventure if it turns out this tradeskill apprentice can only be obtained once you're 90/90?I hope this is all much ado about nothing, and it turns out there will be a crafting method to obtain the tradeskill apprentice that we either haven't found yet, or hasn't been patched in yet. Make it a difficult, several-days long quest for all I care, just make sure that it's fair to those of us who dislike combat.Here's to hoping.</blockquote>Actually the flower ports you to gfay not the raid instence =p

denmom

03-26-2012, 12:51 AM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.</blockquote>Well apparently the only way to get the next "elite apprentice" is do go do "solo zones" in skyshrine atm. Yeah right!!!</blockquote>Seriously, HONESTLY, do you think they would not allow crafters access to lvl 90+ apprentice spells without being a 90 adventurer?</blockquote>I've noticed quite a few hybrids, the adventure/crafter, on server and in signatures as I read this forum. These folks tend (not 100% some do) to not craft for the market, more for themselves, will do so for their guild and friends. They tend, the ones I asked about it, to become crafters for the extra AA out there on the crafting quests and to be able to make the armour and other items since they dislike searching for crafters for it.So...perhaps this has been noticed as well and it's possible that this particular crafter item is aimed at those who are hybrids. I am not saying it truly is that, I'm just saying it's possible it could be aimed at hybrids if devs or others in the chain at SOE have been noticing the rise of hybrid toons.But, as usual, no one knows anything until someone from SOE says something, be it in chat at Test or in this thread. All we can do is speculate with some of those speculators wringing their hands in horrid anticipation of what has been always "the way" being suddenly changed.

Rainmare

03-26-2012, 12:54 AM

actualy, if I remember right, when Kunark first came out, Rillis and Danak did not have TS writs/quests available. if you wanted those recipes, you had to level up the adv side of your crafter, as the recipes were orignally also no trade.just because you don't want to do it, and they wanted to give something special to 90/90s, doesn't mean that it's wrong or that your entitled to it. just like a 90 adv can do all the Qho quests, but can't get the pack pony without being a 90 crafter.now if they did intend for it to be a duo thing, then you prolly just need to make an adv friend who's willing to clear it out so your crafter can trigger the event and get the apprentice. it wasn't difficult to do at all.

Gneaux

03-26-2012, 01:02 AM

Leawyn

03-26-2012, 01:05 AM

<cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.</blockquote>Well apparently the only way to get the next "elite apprentice" is do go do "solo zones" in skyshrine atm. Yeah right!!!</blockquote>Seriously, HONESTLY, do you think they would not allow crafters access to lvl 90+ apprentice spells without being a 90 adventurer?</blockquote>Why not????????????? Tradeskilling, whether you want to accept it or not,, IS a playstyle,, and it is HOW I LIKE to play this game. Getting complex or complicated recipes has never been a probem in the past for a crafter who has done the work. Crafters have NEVER been forced to adventure for recipes, or apprentices and it should IN NO WAY shape or form be that way now.Give up, you're not going to win this debate.</blockquote>Relax, sweet cheeks. Reread what I said and quit lacing it with the hatred you think I have for crafting. I have 7 lvl 90 crafters, and 6 lvl 90 adventurers.... so yeah, don't judge. I asked do you honestly think they would NOT allow crafters access to 90+ apprentice recipes without being a 90 adventurer?

denmom

03-26-2012, 01:08 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>actualy, if I remember right, when Kunark first came out, Rillis and Danak did not have TS writs/quests available. if you wanted those recipes, you had to level up the adv side of your crafter, as the recipes were orignally also no trade.just because you don't want to do it, and they wanted to give something special to 90/90s, doesn't mean that it's wrong or that your entitled to it. just like a 90 adv can do all the Qho quests, but can't get the pack pony without being a 90 crafter.now if they did intend for it to be a duo thing, then you prolly just need to make an adv friend who's willing to clear it out so your crafter can trigger the event and get the apprentice. it wasn't difficult to do at all.</blockquote>You had writs, they were the ones that gave horrid low amounts of faction back then before the new dailies were put in a bit back. I ran them on my L25/then70 Tailor and disco'd the ones from Danak when he hit L75. These were the ones that gave you recipes from the three subclass of your class.If you wanted the advanced books that the Rillis/Danak/Bathezid sold, you had to level up your faction with them. If you were an adventure/crafter hybrid it was far easier to do so because of the adventuring quests. But if not, it really was horrid to level up the faction. I know, I have all 9 classes and I bought a lot of them off broker or were given them by friends/guildees or I found them when I adventured. It was great when they went heirloom and I could fill in spaces. They were horridly expensive on the broker, for many plat.

Gneaux

03-26-2012, 01:22 AM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>This reaction is really amusing to me. You don't even know yet if there is a way for pure crafters to get 90+ apprentice recipes and you guys are raging like bulls in a china shop. Relax. I highly doubt they'd restrict apprentices to 90+ when all other apprentices are available from early crafting levels.</blockquote>Well apparently the only way to get the next "elite apprentice" is do go do "solo zones" in skyshrine atm. Yeah right!!!</blockquote>Seriously, HONESTLY, do you think they would not allow crafters access to lvl 90+ apprentice spells without being a 90 adventurer?</blockquote>Why not????????????? Tradeskilling, whether you want to accept it or not,, IS a playstyle,, and it is HOW I LIKE to play this game. Getting complex or complicated recipes has never been a probem in the past for a crafter who has done the work. Crafters have NEVER been forced to adventure for recipes, or apprentices and it should IN NO WAY shape or form be that way now.Give up, you're not going to win this debate.</blockquote>Relax, sweet cheeks. Reread what I said and quit lacing it with the hatred you think I have for crafting. I have 7 lvl 90 crafters, and 6 lvl 90 adventurers.... so yeah, don't judge. I asked do you honestly think they would NOT allow crafters access to 90+ apprentice recipes without being a 90 adventurer? </blockquote>I sincerely hope that they would allow level 90+ crafters to continue to achieve the things they do by allowing them access to all recipes,, compklicated , yes, but doable.Otherwise the PLAY YOUR WAY mantra, will soon become "false advertisement.

Mermut

03-26-2012, 01:33 AM

If it stays this way, it is a complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling. Tradeskilling quests have never required adventure level. There's always been a way for a lvl 10 adventurer to do all the tradeskill quests. They've had to be careful, but they were doable.I"m.... curious... where this idea came from.

Jazabelle

03-26-2012, 02:56 AM

<cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually the flower ports you to gfay not the raid instence =p</blockquote>Ah, thank you for the correction. I can never remember where the different port items take you.Regardless, the rest of my post still stands <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Practically every single crafting recipe--aside from recipes for gear specific to raiding--can be obtained in some fashion by low level adventurers/high level crafters.As to the allegation that we are raging like bulls in a china shop--have you seen the Mythbusters episode where they set up a pen with china shop style shelves, riled up a bull, then turned him loose? He was incredibly graceful, and nary a dish was broken *grin* But back on topic. This is a forum for feedback. For the most part, while we have strong opinions about this, this is a discussion forum for feedback. We're providing our feedback, and including examples of prior instances that prove our point.I for one am not upset. I would like for this to change, but I am holding my outrage in reserve until such time (if it occurs) as we are told without a doubt that tradeskillers must also be adventurers to obtain this tradeskill apprentice.As I and others have said before, it's quite possible people haven't found the tradeskill method yet, or that it hasn't been patched in. We still have three weeks before this GU goes live. A lot can happen in three weeks.We're expressing our concern while we wait for more information, and building our case for change, should the information we currently have turn out to be true.With that said, it will be contrary to tradeskill history if the tradeskill apprentice is only obtainable through adventuring and crafting. I'm not against an award for being a tradeskiller and an adventurer, but such a reward needs to be something balanced. Something that neither tradeskilling nor adventuring has. As someone else pointed out, adventuring has an elite mercenary. If we equate mercenaries with tradeskill apprentices, then turnabout should be fair play. If the special tradeskill apprentice requires adventuring, the elite mercenary should require crafting.I will reiterate that I don't see a problem with some sort of an award for a high level crafter and adventurer. The award just should not be the tradeskill apprentice.Until such time as we hear from someone with confirmation one way or another, I will continue to discuss and provide my feedback. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rijacki

03-26-2012, 03:15 AM

One way this could be handled is to have the 'hiring stone' be tradeable. Adventure obtained, yes, but tradeable to a crafter who doesn't adventure.Of my 90 crafters, only 2 are 90 adventurers, my only 90 adventurers. So, if it was 90/90 only, I would not be able to obtain it at this time on nearly every one of my crafting characters. If it was tradeable, but obtained by adventuring, I too would have a chance to have it on all my crafting characters.

Rainmare

03-26-2012, 03:44 AM

I have to say, after looking at some of the gear you get...this is some VERY VERY VERY VERY nice stuff. Raid quailty stuff, easily...at least the non-house items.It may very well be that these guys are meant to be a 'perk' for the people that have leveled up both sides the game.crafting is a seperate gamestyle. and so is adventuring, and so is raiding. yet I'm not seeing any complaints about quests that require raiding. if it's a playsytle you don't enjoy, your can't get what requires it.if your an adventurer tht hate's crafting, you can't get a packpony, and you can't get the clicky evac item. these are quests that require you to be 90 in TS.epic weapons needed group and raid content. but people that asked for solo methods cause they didn't like raiding and grouping were scoffed and laughed at. with the statement of 'if you don't want to put in the effort, your not entitled to the item'this apprentice apparenrtly needs 90 adv and 90 ts to get. (so far as we know) it gives you recipes that are darn near as nice, if not nicer then raid gear I've seen from DoV/AoD.like I said before this one thing could very well be a perk just for 90/90s something extra for them for the effort they put in to level up both sides of the game. they put in extra work, they got some extra recipes.

Raknid

03-26-2012, 10:38 AM

Remember the heritage quests that required crafting? How they basically said that it was for people who did both? Sort of the same kind of thing here.No matter how much pure crafters or pure adventurers complain, neither are as well rounded as someone who has capped both.Kind of nice that they are getting away from the "Everybody gets a trophy" mindset (with this and the AA limit for 90+ requirement on adventuring) and allowing people to differentiate themselves from one another.

Cloudrat

03-26-2012, 11:42 AM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember the heritage quests that required crafting? How they basically said that it was for people who did both? Sort of the same kind of thing here.No matter how much pure crafters or pure adventurers complain, neither are as well rounded as someone who has capped both.Kind of nice that they are getting away from the "Everybody gets a trophy" mindset (with this and the AA limit for 90+ requirement on adventuring) and allowing people to differentiate themselves from one another.</blockquote>I remember those heritage quests, that is when I ended up with adventurer toons that hadn't crafted becoming crafters. Then the adventurers cried so much the commission window was born and the requirement went out the window.

Triste-Lune

03-26-2012, 11:44 AM

<cite>Katz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does the solo instance scale or is it set at 90+ adventuring?</blockquote>I hope it s a solo instance requiering more than rygor armor and 300AA to succeed.

Raknid

03-26-2012, 11:54 AM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember the heritage quests that required crafting? How they basically said that it was for people who did both? Sort of the same kind of thing here.No matter how much pure crafters or pure adventurers complain, neither are as well rounded as someone who has capped both.Kind of nice that they are getting away from the "Everybody gets a trophy" mindset (with this and the AA limit for 90+ requirement on adventuring) and allowing people to differentiate themselves from one another.</blockquote>I remember those heritage quests, that is when I ended up with adventurer toons that hadn't crafted becoming crafters. Then the adventurers cried so much the commission window was born and the requirement went out the window.</blockquote>I remember commision crafting coming out with EoF so that raid dropped materials could be crafted, and so that crafting could be "secure" for the person who was wanting something crafted, not sure I remember what you said being a driving force.Which is neither here nor there as it was simply an example. Even if "crying" led it to be changed, that just reinforces my point about SOE trying to hand out trophies to everyone, and letting everyone have everything regardless of their level of achievement.It is good that people who are high acheivers get to distuingish themselves from people who are not.

Finora

03-26-2012, 11:59 AM

IMO if they want it to be something only 90/90s can get, they need to make it a jack of all trades mercenary as well as a tradeskill assistant. At least that would make a bit more sense.

Rijacki

03-26-2012, 12:02 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it stays this way, it is a complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling. Tradeskilling quests have never required adventure level. There's always been a way for a lvl 10 adventurer to do all the tradeskill quests. They've had to be careful, but they were doable.I"m.... curious... where this idea came from.</blockquote>I'm sure there are few here who remember the original announcements and the 'promise' of how adventuring and crafting would be more intertwined in some areas. I'm sure there are few here who remember the Wyrmslayer weapons and how those recipes were not only acquired, but how they had to be crafted. I'm sure there are few here who will remember the plague event when the first Adventure Pack (Bloodline Chronicles) launched and how the final stage of the quest had to be completed by a max capped adventurer who was a max capped alchemist and in a raid. I'm sure few here will remember the Maj'dul factions and how adventuring is required to do the faction quests or obtain coins (which can be traded) with the advanced recipes available for those factions with zero 'pure crafting' means to obtain the faction (even though that is -still- in place). I'm sure few remember the quests in Enchanted Lands that reward tradeskill recipes and require an adventure quest series to obtain them (or wait, they still do), even though they're trade-able. I'm sure few remember the Golden Acorn recipe quest which requires adventure level to obtain (it, too, is still in game). I'm sure few remember the Unrest recipes which require adventuring to obtain but are tradable (and they're still in game, too). I'm surprised how few remember the RoK provisioner recipes available only if you're an adventurer and can clear a zone in a group (and -that- is still there, too). I'm not even sure now how few there are of us who remember back to a time before Domino put in the crafting quests (all tradeskill quests other than writs pre-Kunark were added by her) so the only way to obtain any advanced crafting recipe book was through adventuring, even though they could be sold/traded. And so on...This is -not- a "complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling", it's not even a complete and total break from tradeskilling as it was under Domino (RoK to AoD). Tradeskill quests are actually even quite 'new' in the scope of the game. Before Domino, there were zero quests (other than writs) which used the tradeskill level to obtain. All quests, prior to that, required only adventure level.Additionally, the elite apprentice is not a tradeskill quest. It appears to be an adventuring quest with a tradeskill reward and that has been in the game since launch and there are still active available quests that do the same (Enchanted Lands, Maj'dul, Golden Acorn, etc). That we haven't seen many for a long while is the only truth about it.

Therendil

03-26-2012, 12:06 PM

Forcing crafters to adventure when they don't want to violates the basic concept behind "Play It Your Way." It also violates the obvious principle that cranfting and and adventuring represent very different lives and should not interact much. Norrath by its nature forces some interaction - harvesting is the best example. But it makes no sense that an elite accomplishment in crafting should require the crafter to be a high level adventurer any more than elite achievements in adventure should require high level tradeskills.If they want to leave this requirement in place, fine. Just add something for balance, like requiring an equipped Solstice Earring to enter a raid zone.This is either another misguided attempt to force people to work together, and another case of design-without-thought. Either way, it is a mistake.

Raknid

03-26-2012, 12:23 PM

<cite>Therendil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Forcing crafters to adventure when they don't want to violates the basic concept behind "Play It Your Way." It also violates the obvious principle that cranfting and and adventuring represent very different lives and should not interact much. Norrath by its nature forces some interaction - harvesting is the best example. But it makes no sense that an elite accomplishment in crafting should require the crafter to be a high level adventurer any more than elite achievements in adventure should require high level tradeskills.If they want to leave this requirement in place, fine. Just add something for balance, like requiring an equipped Solstice Earring to enter a raid zone.This is either another misguided attempt to force people to work together, and another case of design-without-thought. Either way, it is a mistake.</blockquote>So you basically think SOE should make content that is only for crafters, or only for adventures, but can't make content that is only for people who do both?Not everyone gets, or should get, everything in the game.Here are a few replies to adventurers when they were talking about getting the ease of a collosal reactant vs the trivial quest vs trying to get one from like 6 or 8 of the hardest bosses in the game."go ahead and level yourself up a crafter to 90""Remember, there are different aspects to this game world.""Either that, or he doesnt wish to invest the time it takes to get a character-or multiple characters to 90""Unable to get your crafters levelled? You'll just have to work harder, you'll get there eventually."Now, I would not say the same things to crafters, or adventurers, but the point stands:There is content in the game. If you want it, it is open to you if you simply put in the effort.I think it is great that they acknowledging the hard work people have put in to get both adventure and crafting to level 90 on the same toon. There should be more benefits exclusive to being both on the same toon.

Whilhelmina

03-26-2012, 12:51 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it stays this way, it is a complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling. Tradeskilling quests have never required adventure level. There's always been a way for a lvl 10 adventurer to do all the tradeskill quests. They've had to be careful, but they were doable.I"m.... curious... where this idea came from.</blockquote>I'm sure there are few here who remember the original announcements and the 'promise' of how adventuring and crafting would be more intertwined in some areas. I'm sure there are few here who remember the Wyrmslayer weapons and how those recipes were not only acquired, but how they had to be crafted. I'm sure there are few here who will remember the plague event when the first Adventure Pack (Bloodline Chronicles) launched and how the final stage of the quest had to be completed by a max capped adventurer who was a max capped alchemist and in a raid. I'm sure few here will remember the Maj'dul factions and how adventuring is required to do the faction quests or obtain coins (which can be traded) with the advanced recipes available for those factions with zero 'pure crafting' means to obtain the faction (even though that is -still- in place). I'm sure few remember the quests in Enchanted Lands that reward tradeskill recipes and require an adventure quest series to obtain them (or wait, they still do), even though they're trade-able. I'm sure few remember the Golden Acorn recipe quest which requires adventure level to obtain (it, too, is still in game). I'm sure few remember the Unrest recipes which require adventuring to obtain but are tradable (and they're still in game, too). I'm surprised how few remember the RoK provisioner recipes available only if you're an adventurer and can clear a zone in a group (and -that- is still there, too). I'm not even sure now how few there are of us who remember back to a time before Domino put in the crafting quests (all tradeskill quests other than writs pre-Kunark were added by her) so the only way to obtain any advanced crafting recipe book was through adventuring, even though they could be sold/traded. And so on...This is -not- a "complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling", it's not even a complete and total break from tradeskilling as it was under Domino (RoK to AoD). Tradeskill quests are actually even quite 'new' in the scope of the game. Before Domino, there were zero quests (other than writs) which used the tradeskill level to obtain. All quests, prior to that, required only adventure level.Additionally, the elite apprentice is not a tradeskill quest. It appears to be an adventuring quest with a tradeskill reward and that has been in the game since launch and there are still active available quests that do the same (Enchanted Lands, Maj'dul, Golden Acorn, etc). That we haven't seen many for a long while is the only truth about it.</blockquote>I don't remember the initial announcement nor the end of the plague but all the recipes you listed were fully tradable. I have several chars (my scholars) with max Maj'dul faction with a court and reached this faction through coins while being level 20ish adventurers.The unrest recipe and charasis recipes where added by Domino on the basis that tradeskillers could by them. My now level 50 carpenter has the unrest book and my 30ish provi had a friend buy her the book in Charasis. All the chars with an enchanted lands recipes have it and never ran the quest. My provi did ran the Golden Acorn and Mooshga questss high enough for those but they still could be found on the broker.The Emeral halls recipes were fully tradable and I bought several off the broker before Frizznik added them to the Mara merchant.The Wyrmsteel recipes needed max faction with Ironforge or Coalition but could be crafted by a lowbie, provided the raid or group (don't remember what was needed) was shielding him/her to reach the forge.Even the old access quests to reach overland zones where not needed if you were past a certain level of tradeskilling.When Domino created the RoK questline, I did the whole questline AND the factioning with a level 10 swashbuckler/70 carpenter in beta, so you're wrong, the writs for factionning were there at launch.More recently, we got the grandmaster quests adding a book reward for the lower tiers so crafters could get the elusives volume 28 and 44 and then later the full questlines for T2-T4 and T8-T9.Crafters only rely on adventurers for the T5 books, T6 coins for Maj'dul and T7 books.So, to put it short: tradeskillers can level up to 92 without gaining a single adventuring level if they so choose while doing all the quests and buying/dropping/harvesting most of the recipes & components. They can buy off the broker T5-T7 books and the EH components. Everything is tradable/heirloom.The elite apprentice is the only tradeskill item in the game that can be only obtained by an adventurer AND is no-trade. And no, it's not even a quest, it's talking to a side NPC in a corner of an instance if you happen to be 90 crafter.EDIT to add: the comission system was added because of the AA mirrors which were gained through a tradeskill faction ally rank and no-trade. AA mirrors and comission launched at the same time, at the GU in january after RoK iirc

Lenanu

03-26-2012, 01:38 PM

In the begining those quested recipies were no-trade if I recall correctly. It was some point later that they changed them so they could be traded. Again I will state, the apprentice isn't really a QUEST reward, merely something EXTRA in the solo dungeon to do that comes with the added perk of a reward.

Neskonlith

03-26-2012, 02:25 PM

Why not allow the instance NPC offer an Heirloom flagged tablet which can be traded to lowbie adventure/max crafting alts, which unlocks the 91-92 research options on the existing tradeskill apprentice?The existing TA is useful for t1-t9, so give us an option to unlock and grow them to t10!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Oxie

03-26-2012, 02:38 PM

<cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loss of Domino and Rothgar is becoming VERY prevalant.</blockquote>This times 1000.

Whilhelmina

03-26-2012, 07:01 PM

Here is the recipe list for Craftmen:Carpenter:aITEM 665754427 -1381297940 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Arcane Dragon Statue, Version 2]/aaITEM 1483856480 -463386210 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Benevolent Dragon Statue, Version 2]/aaITEM -1608213997 2053458990 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Drakota Statue, Version 2]/aaITEM 717277806 -38308105 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Fierce Dragon Head Statue, Version 2]/aaITEM 989791855 296122991 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Noble Dragon Head Statue, Version 2]/aWoodworker:aITEM -845488889 1967895308 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Caduceus Of The Draconic Battlepriest]/aaITEM -646156961 -1392888902 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Draconic Defender's Bo Staff]/aaITEM 915885099 906330744 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Dragon Bone Arrows]/aaITEM -984324507 -1757172112 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Wand Of The Draconic Oracle]/aProvisionner (currently bugged):aITEM 797340632 -2088410542 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Draconic Battlepriest's Mending Meal]/aaITEM 1268176981 783431455 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Draconic Defender's Victory Feast]/aaITEM 428776628 -1534443371 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Draconic Miscreant's Intoxicating Brew]/aaITEM 1885103931 361964181 0:[Draconic Knowledge: Draconic Oracle's Visionary Tea]/a

gourdon

03-26-2012, 07:02 PM

The problem with having stuff that is available only to people who both craft and adventure is that there isn't intrinsic balance in the game to start with. There is nothing special available to hardcore crafters like there is to hardcore adventurers. The crafters rightly feel like they are getting less. Until that is rectified, tradeskill stuff should not require significant adventuring.

denmom

03-26-2012, 07:08 PM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember the heritage quests that required crafting? How they basically said that it was for people who did both? Sort of the same kind of thing here.No matter how much pure crafters or pure adventurers complain, neither are as well rounded as someone who has capped both.Kind of nice that they are getting away from the "Everybody gets a trophy" mindset (with this and the AA limit for 90+ requirement on adventuring) and allowing people to differentiate themselves from one another.</blockquote>I remember those heritage quests, that is when I ended up with adventurer toons that hadn't crafted becoming crafters. Then the adventurers cried so much the commission window was born and the requirement went out the window.</blockquote>You can commission all of them except for the casserole for Yoru. You can't buy it off broker and have it count like it did before. You can't be handed one and have it count, that's been taken out. And you cannot commission. You must craft it. Yes, I've tried to commission, I've had friends try, it won't work. You must craft for this one. But the other HQs you can commission on.

Cloudrat

03-26-2012, 07:12 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember the heritage quests that required crafting? How they basically said that it was for people who did both? Sort of the same kind of thing here.No matter how much pure crafters or pure adventurers complain, neither are as well rounded as someone who has capped both.Kind of nice that they are getting away from the "Everybody gets a trophy" mindset (with this and the AA limit for 90+ requirement on adventuring) and allowing people to differentiate themselves from one another.</blockquote>I remember those heritage quests, that is when I ended up with adventurer toons that hadn't crafted becoming crafters. Then the adventurers cried so much the commission window was born and the requirement went out the window.</blockquote>You can commission all of them except for the casserole for Yoru. You can't buy it off broker and have it count like it did before. You can't be handed one and have it count, that's been taken out. And you cannot commission. You must craft it. Yes, I've tried to commission, I've had friends try, it won't work. You must craft for this one. But the other HQs you can commission on.</blockquote>I think it was the HQs that required 65 skill in crafting in KoS lol that caused the furor not the artisan level 9 one hehe Although, I have come across an adventurer or two that didn't even want to craft to level 9<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Deveryn

03-26-2012, 10:12 PM

<cite>gourdon wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with having stuff that is available only to people who both craft and adventure is that there isn't intrinsic balance in the game to start with. There is nothing special available to hardcore crafters like there is to hardcore adventurers. The crafters rightly feel like they are getting less. Until that is rectified, tradeskill stuff should not require significant adventuring.</blockquote>Could we please stop acting like crafters have as difficult a road as adventurers? Just because they made it a separate playstyle doesn't make it equal to adventuring. The fact is they can only make crafting so challenging. Therefore, one can only expect a certain level of reward for their efforts. I've seen the suggestion for tradeskill instance to drop this. Could you maybe get a little more detailed with that idea? I'm curious to see what new and exciting ideas people have.Also, this whole idea of being forced into anything is ridiculous. You can "Play It Your Way", but you have to accept the fact that your way will not get you all of the goodies. That's how it's always been. The more effort you put into the game, the more you get out of it.

Raknid

03-26-2012, 10:59 PM

<cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote> The more effort you put into the game, the more you get out of it.</blockquote>That is how it should be, and I think it is fine to give rewards for higher levels of achievement. The "everyone's got to get a trophy" mentality is what is watering down games and making them so bland. Some people need to be able to get stuff other people can't. There doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a seperate way to get every single thing in the game.

d1anaw

03-27-2012, 02:22 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it the elite or the other standard apprentice? If it's the elite, why shouldn't it be a reward for doing -both- adventuring and tradeskilling. If it's the second non-elite, then I agree it's not a good thing. I am, though, suspecting it's the elite.</blockquote>Because a tradeskiller should not be required to be an adventurer in order to fully participate in a TRADESKILL on ANY level. That's the arrogance of a raider speaking.

d1anaw

03-27-2012, 02:24 AM

<cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it the elite or the other standard apprentice? If it's the elite, why shouldn't it be a reward for doing -both- adventuring and tradeskilling. If it's the second non-elite, then I agree it's not a good thing. I am, though, suspecting it's the elite.</blockquote>Do the elite mercs require the person to be a level 90 tradeskiller to hire them? If not, then I see no reason why the elite tradeskill apprentice should require level 90 adventuring.</blockquote>Agreed. Although I have several 90/90s I also have TS who are not and I do not intend to push to 90 adventuring. And that should be ok.

d1anaw

03-27-2012, 02:36 AM

<blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sure there are few here who remember the original announcements and the 'promise' of how adventuring and crafting would be more intertwined in some areas. I'm sure there are few here who remember the Wyrmslayer weapons and how those recipes were not only acquired, but how they had to be crafted. I'm sure there are few here who will remember the plague event when the first Adventure Pack (Bloodline Chronicles) launched and how the final stage of the quest had to be completed by a max capped adventurer who was a max capped alchemist and in a raid. I'm sure few here will remember the Maj'dul factions and how adventuring is required to do the faction quests or obtain coins (which can be traded) with the advanced recipes available for those factions with zero 'pure crafting' means to obtain the faction (even though that is -still- in place). I'm sure few remember the quests in Enchanted Lands that reward tradeskill recipes and require an adventure quest series to obtain them (or wait, they still do), even though they're trade-able. I'm sure few remember the Golden Acorn recipe quest which requires adventure level to obtain (it, too, is still in game). I'm sure few remember the Unrest recipes which require adventuring to obtain but are tradable (and they're still in game, too). I'm surprised how few remember the RoK provisioner recipes available only if you're an adventurer and can clear a zone in a group (and -that- is still there, too). I'm not even sure now how few there are of us who remember back to a time before Domino put in the crafting quests (all tradeskill quests other than writs pre-Kunark were added by her) so the only way to obtain any advanced crafting recipe book was through adventuring, even though they could be sold/traded. And so on...</blockquote></blockquote>Actually, the most recent promise is that we are going to be able to "play our way". Look at the advertisment for the release of the update, it's right there. Forcing someone to be an adventurer a high level adventurer at that, is not in keeping with the "play your way" promise. It's yet raiders trying to once again force everyone into playing "their way". When "they" start paying for my subscription, with their money, then maybe they might have a right to tell me how to play. But as long as it is MY money and MY time, I should have the right to play MY way and I should have a legitimate means to obtain those parts of the game that fit with MY playstyle.

Onorem

03-27-2012, 02:54 AM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sure there are few here who remember the original announcements and the 'promise' of how adventuring and crafting would be more intertwined in some areas. I'm sure there are few here who remember the Wyrmslayer weapons and how those recipes were not only acquired, but how they had to be crafted. I'm sure there are few here who will remember the plague event when the first Adventure Pack (Bloodline Chronicles) launched and how the final stage of the quest had to be completed by a max capped adventurer who was a max capped alchemist and in a raid. I'm sure few here will remember the Maj'dul factions and how adventuring is required to do the faction quests or obtain coins (which can be traded) with the advanced recipes available for those factions with zero 'pure crafting' means to obtain the faction (even though that is -still- in place). I'm sure few remember the quests in Enchanted Lands that reward tradeskill recipes and require an adventure quest series to obtain them (or wait, they still do), even though they're trade-able. I'm sure few remember the Golden Acorn recipe quest which requires adventure level to obtain (it, too, is still in game). I'm sure few remember the Unrest recipes which require adventuring to obtain but are tradable (and they're still in game, too). I'm surprised how few remember the RoK provisioner recipes available only if you're an adventurer and can clear a zone in a group (and -that- is still there, too). I'm not even sure now how few there are of us who remember back to a time before Domino put in the crafting quests (all tradeskill quests other than writs pre-Kunark were added by her) so the only way to obtain any advanced crafting recipe book was through adventuring, even though they could be sold/traded. And so on...</blockquote></blockquote>Actually, the most recent promise is that we are going to be able to "play our way". Look at the advertisment for the release of the update, it's right there. Forcing someone to be an adventurer a high level adventurer at that, is not in keeping with the "play your way" promise. It's yet raiders trying to once again force everyone into playing "their way". When "they" start paying for my subscription, with their money, then maybe they might have a right to tell me how to play. But as long as it is MY money and MY time, I should have the right to play MY way and I should have a legitimate means to obtain those parts of the game that fit with MY playstyle.</blockquote>'Play your way' is a stupid advert slogan. It doesn't mean that you get to actually play how you want to, and all the arguments that point to 'play your way' make the person making the argument look silly.--edit--Play your way:Pay us or pay us. If you want a game that's worth playing, you'll choose one or the other....your way.

Rijacki

03-27-2012, 03:43 AM

<cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it stays this way, it is a complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling. Tradeskilling quests have never required adventure level. There's always been a way for a lvl 10 adventurer to do all the tradeskill quests. They've had to be careful, but they were doable.I"m.... curious... where this idea came from.</blockquote>I'm sure there are few here who remember the original announcements and the 'promise' of how adventuring and crafting would be more intertwined in some areas. I'm sure there are few here who remember the Wyrmslayer weapons and how those recipes were not only acquired, but how they had to be crafted. I'm sure there are few here who will remember the plague event when the first Adventure Pack (Bloodline Chronicles) launched and how the final stage of the quest had to be completed by a max capped adventurer who was a max capped alchemist and in a raid. I'm sure few here will remember the Maj'dul factions and how adventuring is required to do the faction quests or obtain coins (which can be traded) with the advanced recipes available for those factions with zero 'pure crafting' means to obtain the faction (even though that is -still- in place). I'm sure few remember the quests in Enchanted Lands that reward tradeskill recipes and require an adventure quest series to obtain them (or wait, they still do), even though they're trade-able. I'm sure few remember the Golden Acorn recipe quest which requires adventure level to obtain (it, too, is still in game). I'm sure few remember the Unrest recipes which require adventuring to obtain but are tradable (and they're still in game, too). I'm surprised how few remember the RoK provisioner recipes available only if you're an adventurer and can clear a zone in a group (and -that- is still there, too). I'm not even sure now how few there are of us who remember back to a time before Domino put in the crafting quests (all tradeskill quests other than writs pre-Kunark were added by her) so the only way to obtain any advanced crafting recipe book was through adventuring, even though they could be sold/traded. And so on...This is -not- a "complete and total break from everything EQ2 has done for tradeskilling", it's not even a complete and total break from tradeskilling as it was under Domino (RoK to AoD). Tradeskill quests are actually even quite 'new' in the scope of the game. Before Domino, there were zero quests (other than writs) which used the tradeskill level to obtain. All quests, prior to that, required only adventure level.Additionally, the elite apprentice is not a tradeskill quest. It appears to be an adventuring quest with a tradeskill reward and that has been in the game since launch and there are still active available quests that do the same (Enchanted Lands, Maj'dul, Golden Acorn, etc). That we haven't seen many for a long while is the only truth about it.</blockquote>I don't remember the initial announcement nor the end of the plague but all the recipes you listed were fully tradable. I have several chars (my scholars) with max Maj'dul faction with a court and reached this faction through coins while being level 20ish adventurers.The unrest recipe and charasis recipes where added by Domino on the basis that tradeskillers could by them. My now level 50 carpenter has the unrest book and my 30ish provi had a friend buy her the book in Charasis. All the chars with an enchanted lands recipes have it and never ran the quest. My provi did ran the Golden Acorn and Mooshga questss high enough for those but they still could be found on the broker.The Emeral halls recipes were fully tradable and I bought several off the broker before Frizznik added them to the Mara merchant.The Wyrmsteel recipes needed max faction with Ironforge or Coalition but could be crafted by a lowbie, provided the raid or group (don't remember what was needed) was shielding him/her to reach the forge.Even the old access quests to reach overland zones where not needed if you were past a certain level of tradeskilling.When Domino created the RoK questline, I did the whole questline AND the factioning with a level 10 swashbuckler/70 carpenter in beta, so you're wrong, the writs for factionning were there at launch.More recently, we got the grandmaster quests adding a book reward for the lower tiers so crafters could get the elusives volume 28 and 44 and then later the full questlines for T2-T4 and T8-T9.Crafters only rely on adventurers for the T5 books, T6 coins for Maj'dul and T7 books.So, to put it short: tradeskillers can level up to 92 without gaining a single adventuring level if they so choose while doing all the quests and buying/dropping/harvesting most of the recipes & components. They can buy off the broker T5-T7 books and the EH components. Everything is tradable/heirloom.The elite apprentice is the only tradeskill item in the game that can be only obtained by an adventurer AND is no-trade. And no, it's not even a quest, it's talking to a side NPC in a corner of an instance if you happen to be 90 crafter.EDIT to add: the comission system was added because of the AA mirrors which were gained through a tradeskill faction ally rank and no-trade. AA mirrors and comission launched at the same time, at the GU in january after RoK iirc</blockquote>For the tradeskiller to get obtain them, it takes an adventurer at that level to get them. I said nothing about no trade, jsut that it's not unheard of for tradeskill related things to require adventuring. Even the Maj'dul coins require adventuring, an adventurer to kill various groups in the city, to obtain the coins to sell/give to a tradeskiller.The RoK recipes I'm talking about are not the faction ones. They're the provisioner ones for mass combine. They were added after RoK release. Emporer's Atheneum? Some house items on that merchant, too, that only become purchasable once the fight with the champion is completed. The house items include a paltform and some snowglobes.Oh.. and I forgot another. The SF one. The quest which can be done in a cleared zone, still requires adventurers to clear it.As I said in one of my posts, an easy way to 'solve' this would be to have the elite apprentice either be tradable or to have the zone allow someone lower than 90 to duo with a 90 or 90+. Personally I think it would be nicer as the later because then the apprentice hire stone wouldn't become 'useless' vendor trash after flooding the broker (as all the trade-able special recipes have become). Plus, if a low adventure level crafter were able to zone in with a high level adventurer to do the 'quest' with that help, the crafter would get some AA XP to help towards his/her own adventure leveling.I don't think that every crafter has any sort of 'right' to get every possible recipe his/her class can do in exactly the same way any adventurer has no 'right' to every possible drop available for his/her adventure class. I do, though, think there should be the opportunity to obtain things in game. Requiring a level 90 tradeskiller to be level 90 adventurer for an extra special elite reward is not bad, in my opinion, no matter if it's a crafting related reward or an adventure related one.I have only one 90/90 crafter that has 280+ AA. I have one other 90/90 crafter with less than 231 (as of tonight) AA. My other 90 crafters range in level from 20something to 75. I would benefit if there was a way my non-90 adventure level crafters could obtain the apprentice. I would be "penalised" on most of my crafters if there isn't. My 90 carpenter is a level 50 conjuror, I won't be getting the statues unless he doesn't have to be a 90 adventurer.

Deveryn

03-27-2012, 03:47 AM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is it the elite or the other standard apprentice? If it's the elite, why shouldn't it be a reward for doing -both- adventuring and tradeskilling. If it's the second non-elite, then I agree it's not a good thing. I am, though, suspecting it's the elite.</blockquote>Because a tradeskiller should not be required to be an adventurer in order to fully participate in a TRADESKILL on ANY level. That's the arrogance of a raider speaking.</blockquote>It's not the arrogance of a raider. It's the misunderstanding of a tradeskiller. There's this feeling of privilege and entitlement and it's not right.

Muusic

03-27-2012, 04:36 AM

<cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loss of Domino and Rothgar is becoming VERY prevalant and I shudder to think that after 7 years of dedicated game play, you are now FORCING me to PLAY YOUR WAY instead of how I have been playing this game since launch.I see no further purpose for me even testing this content.</blockquote>Well said Gneaux. Aside from the fact that on my toons I AM able to get the apprentices for the most part, the crafting content in this GU so far is very limited and poorly thought out. To coin a phrase i think we have been "Thrown a bone" and it's directly related to the loss of Domino and Rothgar.Turn the tables and make a end game raider sit at crafting tables for a couple hundred hours so they can craft a no-trade/no-consign item required to progress thru their raid zones and I'll call it even and fair.But half of us on Test can't even enter a house without crashing to desktop right now so im guessing there is a missing component somwhere in the midst.

Mermut

03-27-2012, 04:40 AM

I like the idea that the 'elite tradeskill apprentice' should be something you have to work at to get... but the work should be tradeskill related.Adventurers would, justifiably, be upset if they had to be a lvl 90 tradeskiller to get some sought after level 91/92 adventuring reward.This isn't a case of something like the various recipes or components that drop in adventure zones that are available, at least via the broker, to tradeskillers. I have serveral 90/90 toons, but I still think this is a bad idea. There is, frankly, no 'prestige' to being the crafter of some peice of gear. And, unless people plan on gouging people they craft for, there is no benefit to being the only person with a particular recipe.

baguetteovenfresh

03-27-2012, 09:11 AM

For people saying "bah good, making it adventuring makes it really hard for those easy mode crafters who just breezed to 90!" Sure. You can get 90 by just grinding writs or whatever. But if you actually do the quests and get the faction so you can unlock stuff, it is by no means easy. For instance, if you do the blessed coldain prayer shawl quest, you have to:1) get 40k faction, 2,500 faction at a time, once a day2) do 5 timed very hard combines full of complications that KILL YOU INSTANTLY. You run out of time easily. I am on my 2nd go at it. I had a lag spike and missed a click by 1 second and died instantly. There aren't, to my knowledge, any adventuring items that require you to risk being instantly killed over 300 times in 5 minutes.I'd like to see adventuring stuff instagib you if you hit one tiny lag spike.I'm all for harder requirements for tradeskillers to get stuff that is elite, just make it in line with tradeskilling - the adventuring side of this game isn't hard, it is in fact in my opinion tedious button-mashing grindfest of "kill X, deliver X, gather X."Make it like some of the quests leading to the Earring of the Solstice - they were hard, you had to think, and they were tradeskill flavored. Make the final comine a KILL YOU DEAD combine like the shawl. Then let's see the adventurers try it and tell us we have it so easy :p

Deveryn

03-27-2012, 09:17 AM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like the idea that the 'elite tradeskill apprentice' should be something you have to work at to get... but the work should be tradeskill related.Adventurers would, justifiably, be upset if they had to be a lvl 90 tradeskiller to get some sought after level 91/92 adventuring reward.This isn't a case of something like the various recipes or components that drop in adventure zones that are available, at least via the broker, to tradeskillers. I have serveral 90/90 toons, but I still think this is a bad idea. There is, frankly, no 'prestige' to being the crafter of some peice of gear. And, unless people plan on gouging people they craft for, there is no benefit to being the only person with a particular recipe.</blockquote>Thanks for making my argument for me. Can we end this now?

Raknid

03-27-2012, 09:29 AM

Everyone in this thread is forgetting that it is a tradeskiller who is doing all the work to get this. It just happens to be one who is also a 90 adventurer.Some of you guys act like the only "real" tradeskillers are those who only tradeskill; that is as silly as somehow thinking that the only real adventurers are those who only adventure. Do you think that somehow, someone who is a 90 adventurer just bypassed all the work that it took to get to 90 in some tradeskill and had the TS levels given to them?This isn't a "raider" versus tradeskiller argument, and that is just a silly assertion. You act as if the only people who are level 90 in both are raiders? Really? That is such a red herring isn't funny; smelly, yes, accurate, no.TS is still a viable stand alone playstyle if this goes through.This is simply a hissy fit that someone might get something you think you can't. Well, you can, all you have to do is level up and do it.I will repeat what I have said before. They NEED to have a way to reward players with unique stuff, not just in this instance but in other instances as well. The death of the game is making it so that everyone can get everything.

baguetteovenfresh

03-27-2012, 09:37 AM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone in this thread is forgetting that it is tradeskiller who is doing all the work to get this. It just happens to be one who is also a 90 adventurer.Some of you guys act like the only "real" tradeskillers are those who only tradeskill; that is as silly as somehow thinking that the only real adventurers are those who only adventure. Do you think that somehow, someone ,who is a 90 adventurer just bypassed all the work that it took to get to 90 in some tradeskill and had the TS levels given to them?This is a "raider" versus tradeskiller argument, and that is just a silly assertion. You act as if the only people who are level 90 in both are raiders? Really? That is such a red herring isn't funny; smelly, yes, accurate, no.TS is still a viable stand alone playstyle if this goes through.This is simply a hissy fit that someone might get something you think you can't. Well, you can, all you have to do is level up and do it.I will repeat what I have said before. They NEED to have a way to reward players with unique stuff, not just in this instance but in other instances as well. The death of the game is making it so that everyone can get everything.</blockquote>How can anything be unique when it all boils down to 2 primary stats and some teensy percentage adjustments to other miscellaneous stats?

Vinyard

03-27-2012, 10:15 AM

Rainmare

03-27-2012, 10:22 AM

<cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>For people saying "bah good, making it adventuring makes it really hard for those easy mode crafters who just breezed to 90!" Sure. You can get 90 by just grinding writs or whatever. But if you actually do the quests and get the faction so you can unlock stuff, it is by no means easy. For instance, if you do the blessed coldain prayer shawl quest, you have to:1) get 40k faction, 2,500 faction at a time, once a day2) do 5 timed very hard combines full of complications that KILL YOU INSTANTLY. You run out of time easily. I am on my 2nd go at it. I had a lag spike and missed a click by 1 second and died instantly. There aren't, to my knowledge, any adventuring items that require you to risk being instantly killed over 300 times in 5 minutes.I'd like to see adventuring stuff instagib you if you hit one tiny lag spike.I'm all for harder requirements for tradeskillers to get stuff that is elite, just make it in line with tradeskilling - the adventuring side of this game isn't hard, it is in fact in my opinion tedious button-mashing grindfest of "kill X, deliver X, gather X."Make it like some of the quests leading to the Earring of the Solstice - they were hard, you had to think, and they were tradeskill flavored. Make the final comine a KILL YOU DEAD combine like the shawl. Then let's see the adventurers try it and tell us we have it so easy :p</blockquote>okay allow me to refute you.the faction thing? yeah. to get to 20k coldain faction for yellow adorns for adventuring, you can do the Velk instances. 1050 faction per day. and you start at 9k after questing. and you can do RW/SG a day, if you earn all the gems you can get. (2 per) for roughly I beleive 1k a run. so I can earn 2050 faction per day. so there is a adventure version of the 'grind' for coldain faction.the prayer shawl final 5 combines is NOT difficult. I did it my first run. but I was also smart enough to go into it wearing crafting gear from the ts instances/othmir armor ect. I didn't run in there in my adventure gear alone. wanna know an adventure thing that can instant kill? the very instance you get this guy. there is an entirely random red message that pops on the screen. you get about 5 seconds to move. if you don't, you die. oh and it only occurs during combat...so if you get the message, and get stunned by a mob? yeah, you die. and this event can and does occur during the special 'ring event' for the apprentice.lets even take a look at raiding. raiding in TSO/DoV is full of 'fail scripts' usually from the point of you didn't move to point b quick enough, you didn't damage to X point fast enough, you didn't cure X curse/dot fast enough. don't do it? EVERYONE dies. so in those cases, MY death can be caused by YOU lagging.how about another instance of having to adventure to do ts stuff. the Wurmslayer HQ. to do several of the combines required by the quest, you have to be a higher end TSer. I think around 65? and the forge you have to use is in the bottom of a contested dungeon.so either I have to clear out a respawning dungeon and protect a low adventure/higher end crafter from being instantly killed on respawns, or I have to level myself to a certain level in crafting. yet you didn't see too many adventurers complainging about it. they saw it needed tsing to do, and they either buckled down and got it done, or they didn't do the heritage. no screaming about it on the forums. they accepted that this quest needed both and chose to do it or not. (and it also requires raiding)or how about the BL epic axioms. now I don't HAVE to Ts for it, but it makes the thing 1000000000000 times easier. the axioms are green shiny collections that you have to do to open certain special instances. you can, and I did, literally spend 6 hours looking for one of the shinies (there are 5 of these collections, with 8 shinies per in specific zones). so I said to myself, I'll get those tinkered gnomish diving rods. that'll make this so much easier. turns out those diving rods? require level 44 in TS to use them.Dragon's Marrow. Wizard epic requires a high end woodworker to complete. can be commissioned, but you still need the high end TSer to make the item you need for your adventuring 'ultimate weapon'. if you aren't a TSer, your are SOL until you find one to get your epic adventuring weapon. and you had to be lucky enough to be the right TS class to boot if you were both a TSer and adventurer.one of the other epics requires you to buy several peices of crafted furniture. I can get it from the broker, but it still had to be made by a crafter to even be on the broker for me to buy. and again, if I was both, I had to be lucky and had picked the right TS class. as both these were LONG before they added the ability to change your ts class.So yes, there have been several instances of adventuring items requiring a player to either find, or be, a Tser to get. thus a precedent for TSing/Adv to be 'intertwined'this may well be a special reward for those players that leveled up both ends of the spectrum. and/or they may allow a 90 Tser into the instance, but you'll need that level 90 adv to clear the area/do the ring event for you.

gatrm

03-27-2012, 10:28 AM

First of all, someone a page or two up replied to and accused Rijacki of being a snobish raider or something of the sort. Which is funny. If anyone knows tradeskilling at all, then they know that Rijacki has always been an active TSer and active in TS forums/feedback. This doesn't personally affect me as my 4 level 90 tradeskillers are also level 90 adventurers, however it is a signifiant change from what has been in the game from launch. With the exception of Wurmslayer, which was in my opinion a different thing altogether, this will mark the first time that a pure tradeskiller has not had a way to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in existence for that tradeskill class. I mark Wurmslayer as different, because it was a heritage quest which made a no-trade item that was for the one person who completed the quest, not potentially a number of end game items. The more appropriate comparison would either be the recipes from Emerald Halls, which were purchaseable on the broker, or the rare drops that used to make the first incarnation of fabled mastercrafted. At least as I recall, they were marked as such- you had to get the rare from a raid zone, and use it in combination with a mastercrafted item to upgrade. These items are no longer in game though and I don't remember enough about them. The EH recipes made raid quality gear, but the recipes were available to tradeskillers via purchase or trade. If these apprentices were a drop and available to tradeskillers via broker purchase, then it would be a moot point, and it would be along the same lines of EH, or other raid or group attainable recipes. I do like the idea of something "extra" for those who make the effort to go 90/90, but I have qualms about the resulting recipes being the best available recipes for the tradeskill class. It seems to me that in keeping with the spirit of the game as well as set precedence, any recipes available to only 90/90 players would make more sense to be fluff and allow the 90 tradeskillers a way to get the best recipes available to their class. Alternatively, perhaps a 90/90 would have the ability to use their experience as an adventurer to "enhance" an existing recipe. They know better than a pure tradeskiller what would work, so they can put a finishing touch on it, making the item just a little better.Do something similar to the TS epic where you had to enter a zone full of red ^^^ mobs, and you had to use something you had crafted to put them to sleep....or have periodic crafting stations in a special instance of these zones where you have to craft a machine to kill the mobs for you....or the simplest solution would be to permit level 90 tradeskillers to zone into the zones in question, instead of requiring a level 90 adventurer.

baguetteovenfresh

03-27-2012, 10:30 AM

<cite>Vinyard@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>For people saying "bah good, making it adventuring makes it really hard for those easy mode crafters who just breezed to 90!" Sure. You can get 90 by just grinding writs or whatever. But if you actually do the quests and get the faction so you can unlock stuff, it is by no means easy. For instance, if you do the blessed coldain prayer shawl quest, you have to:1) get 40k faction, 2,500 faction at a time, once a day2) do 5 timed very hard combines full of complications that KILL YOU INSTANTLY. You run out of time easily. I am on my 2nd go at it. I had a lag spike and missed a click by 1 second and died instantly. There aren't, to my knowledge, any adventuring items that require you to risk being instantly killed over 300 times in 5 minutes.I'd like to see adventuring stuff instagib you if you hit one tiny lag spike.I'm all for harder requirements for tradeskillers to get stuff that is elite, just make it in line with tradeskilling - the adventuring side of this game isn't hard, it is in fact in my opinion tedious button-mashing grindfest of "kill X, deliver X, gather X."Make it like some of the quests leading to the Earring of the Solstice - they were hard, you had to think, and they were tradeskill flavored. Make the final comine a KILL YOU DEAD combine like the shawl. Then let's see the adventurers try it and tell us we have it so easy :p</blockquote>1) There are tons of bosses/trash mobs that will do this. Please don't talk about adventuring if you have no experience in it2) Earring of the Solstice was not hard. I did not have to think. All I had to do was ZAM it, and follow the steps. The shawl quest was not hard either, it was just time consuming getting the faction, and then time consuming finding the people to make the other parts. It was such a joke.</blockquote><ol><li>Sure, if you solo stuff, don't heal yourself, and ignore all semblance of strategy and in general, play like a total idiot.</li><li>Sure, you read a spoiler and blitzed through the quest without actually trying to think for yourself. Want a cookie for having basic literacy skills? Imagine if you hadn't read a spoiler, and figured out everything all by yourself, as people had to do before they were kind enough to spoon feed you the information.</li></ol><div>Please give me a break, the pve in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can play without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 adventuring is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even killing a single mob or doing a single adventurer quest, just wandering around doing crafting crap. </div><div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 weeks on any given character. But the gameplay in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force crafters to adventure, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few crafters who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div>

Vinyard

03-27-2012, 10:34 AM

<cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinyard@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>For people saying "bah good, making it adventuring makes it really hard for those easy mode crafters who just breezed to 90!" Sure. You can get 90 by just grinding writs or whatever. But if you actually do the quests and get the faction so you can unlock stuff, it is by no means easy. For instance, if you do the blessed coldain prayer shawl quest, you have to:1) get 40k faction, 2,500 faction at a time, once a day2) do 5 timed very hard combines full of complications that KILL YOU INSTANTLY. You run out of time easily. I am on my 2nd go at it. I had a lag spike and missed a click by 1 second and died instantly. There aren't, to my knowledge, any adventuring items that require you to risk being instantly killed over 300 times in 5 minutes.I'd like to see adventuring stuff instagib you if you hit one tiny lag spike.I'm all for harder requirements for tradeskillers to get stuff that is elite, just make it in line with tradeskilling - the adventuring side of this game isn't hard, it is in fact in my opinion tedious button-mashing grindfest of "kill X, deliver X, gather X."Make it like some of the quests leading to the Earring of the Solstice - they were hard, you had to think, and they were tradeskill flavored. Make the final comine a KILL YOU DEAD combine like the shawl. Then let's see the adventurers try it and tell us we have it so easy :p</blockquote>1) There are tons of bosses/trash mobs that will do this. Please don't talk about adventuring if you have no experience in it2) Earring of the Solstice was not hard. I did not have to think. All I had to do was ZAM it, and follow the steps. The shawl quest was not hard either, it was just time consuming getting the faction, and then time consuming finding the people to make the other parts. It was such a joke.</blockquote><ol><li>Sure, if you solo stuff, don't heal yourself, and ignore all semblance of strategy and in general, play like a total idiot.</li><li>Sure, you read a spoiler and blitzed through the quest without actually trying to think for yourself. Want a cookie for having basic literacy skills? Imagine if you hadn't read a spoiler, and figured out everything all by yourself, as people had to do before they were kind enough to spoon feed you the information.</li></ol><div>Please give me a break, the pve in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can play without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 adventuring is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even killing a single mob or doing a single adventurer quest, just wandering around doing crafting crap. </div><div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 weeks on any given character. But the gameplay in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force crafters to adventure, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few crafters who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div></blockquote>And I suppose hitting the 3 buttons for crafting is the epitome of skillful play this game has to offer.

Gneaux

03-27-2012, 10:40 AM

If crafters are being discriminated against because there adventuring level is not 90, then I say why not require those precious POW, Drunder, EOW, and all T9+ raid zones require the raiders to have BOTH an Earring of Solstice and Prayer Shawl in order to be able to enter said zones.This is yet another example of player "isolation". First it was gear, trying to get groups, but your crit mit was too low. Remember that??? Well that was fixed because it was a useless stat. As time goes on, this game "finds" more and more ways to divide its playerbase and segregate the haves from the have-nots. THAT is NOT the idea of an MMO in my opinion.Its not about wanting to "have all the rewards" because if crafters wanted to have all the rewards all of our crafters would be in all HM gear, fully adorned, and have the best of everything. What we as crafters want is fairness in obtaining a reward that is completely crafter oriented in design. What use is an elite tradeskill apprentice to an adventurer who has NEVER set foot behind a tradeskill bench, has no desire to, and furthermore is not even interested in crafting?Does this mean I am going to have to powerlevel all my crafters to 90, farm PR 5 times a day twice a week on the toons I have that can to get the plat for powerleveling? I mean if thats what you're saying I mean it CAN be done. I had a raid ready defiler to level 90 in 2 days, by the end of the week was even good in aa. If this is what SOE wants us to do in order to be able to get this obviously tradeskill designed reward, then it CAN be done,, but it will be yet another wasted time sync time-sync because I don't use those crafters for high level adventuring. I HAVE the toons I adventure on at the levels I want them. I have a few 90's, and some lower teirs, mainly to help guildies along the way level, learn their classes, and how to group with other classes. I really do not want to have to level all my toons to 90, but if thats the only way I am going to get that elite apprentice, then so be it. I WILL have all the recipes I I feel I worked for and therefore am entitled to. Adventurers don't need recipes, they need crafters to make them for them.

Gaealiege

03-27-2012, 10:40 AM

This entire post makes me laugh. I recall the crafters being up in arms telling adventurers to basically "get over it" when they do a 20 second quest that gives colossals when colossals only drop from the hardest heroic bosses on the adventure side.I believe my rebuttal to this topic will be "get over it." Oh, and I can't wait to monopolize the market on these new recipes!

Raknid

03-27-2012, 10:51 AM

<cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> I WILL have all the recipes I I feel I worked for and therefore am entitled to. Adventurers don't need recipes, they need crafters to make them for them.</blockquote>There is the problem with the game all rolled up into one word.You didn't "work" for these recipes in particular, therefore you aren't "entiled" to them.You are right, non-crafting adventurers don't need recipes, but we aren't talking about non-crafting adventurers. These are people who both adventure and craft.This is just a different version of plundered furniture essentially.

Gneaux

03-27-2012, 10:56 AM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> I WILL have all the recipes I I feel I worked for and therefore am entitled to. Adventurers don't need recipes, they need crafters to make them for them.</blockquote>There is the problem with the game all rolled up into one word.You didn't "work" for these recipes in particular, therefore you aren't "entiled" to them.You are right, non-crafting adventurers don't need recipes, but we aren't talking about non-crafting adventurers. These are people who both adventure and craft.This is just a different version of plundered furniture essentially.</blockquote>And you obviously overlooked the part stating that I DO have adventurers that craft,, and if I DO go to Skyshine and get the the access I need, then yes,, I have worked for it, and yes AM entitled to the rewards I worked for,, and in fact I HAVE worked for every reward I have gotten in this game, so don't go pointing your finger at me saying I didn't because you have no clue what all I've worked for.

Raknid

03-27-2012, 11:00 AM

<cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gneaux@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> I WILL have all the recipes I I feel I worked for and therefore am entitled to. Adventurers don't need recipes, they need crafters to make them for them.</blockquote>There is the problem with the game all rolled up into one word.You didn't "work" for these recipes in particular, therefore you aren't "entiled" to them.You are right, non-crafting adventurers don't need recipes, but we aren't talking about non-crafting adventurers. These are people who both adventure and craft.This is just a different version of plundered furniture essentially.</blockquote>And you obviously overlooked the part stating that I DO have adventurers that craft,, and if I DO go to Skyshine and get the the access I need, then yes,, I have worked for it, and yes AM entitled to the rewards I worked for,, and in fact I HAVE worked for every reward I have gotten in this game, so don't go pointing your finger at me saying I didn't because you have no clue what all I've worked for.</blockquote>You are "entitled" to it on your characters that are 90/90. Otherwise, no, not in my book.

Triste-Lune

03-27-2012, 11:33 AM

Gneaux did you really rolled a toon on nagafent to be a tradeskiller?

Gneaux

03-27-2012, 11:59 AM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gneaux did you really rolled a toon on nagafent to be a tradeskiller?</blockquote>What difference does it make? I pay to play on what server I want to be on, and people on Nagafen are constantly looking for crafters. That is not the point of this thread. The point is that there is an obviously tradeskill related apprentice that requires a level 90 adventurer to get. Stay on topic please.

Deveryn

03-27-2012, 12:04 PM

The arguments from the tradeskill side about how difficult their quests are vs. adventurers having it so easy are comical at best. Not to sound like the arrogant raider type, but it doesn't sound like you have much of a clue about what you're talking about with regards to adventuring and raiding. I've been involved in both aspects of the game. It takes a lot of hard work and communication to get through the toughest raid zones. Solstice earring quests were somewhat challenging, but that was one quest. Adventurers have to deal with harder situations than that in pretty much every zone on a regular basis.There was one comment: "I'd like to see adventuring stuff instagib you if you hit one tiny lag spike." If you participated in that part of the game, you would see that. Entire raids instagib from internet lag spikes and cerebral lag spikes. All it takes is one tiny mistake. At the end of the night, the majority of the people in a raid can walk away with nothing but a repair bill. Dying in a tradeskill combine doesn't even matter, especially now that most of your bonuses are coming from AAs.People want to talk about requiring tradeskillers in raids. That's already happening. When the raid has a few too many wipes, who do they turn to? The tinkerer with the mender bot. Attempting to reverse the situation by suggesting raids require a TS earring or prayer shawl are ludicrous. However, it wouldn't be all that hard for people to get equipped with those. Some people may raise a stink about the idea, but they will do what needs to be done if it means progressing to the next stage. It only takes about 20 hours to get through all the tradeskill content. That's nothing compared to the time spent hitting up heroic and epic content to keep characters up to par. Tradeskilling: you're 90, you get some equipment once in a while and that's it. What you do at level 1 is the exact same thing as what you do at 90. 1 table, 6 buttons. 0 problems.Just to be clear, I have no problem with crafters. I have 9 of my own. I enjoy it and I think we should get some better recipes and items here and there, but the way we get some of these high quality goods can be a bit of a joke.

Leawyn

03-27-2012, 12:21 PM

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>This doesn't personally affect me as my 4 level 90 tradeskillers are also level 90 adventurers, however it is a signifiant change from what has been in the game from launch. With the exception of Wurmslayer, which was in my opinion a different thing altogether, this will mark the first time that a pure tradeskiller has not had a way to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in existence for that tradeskill class.</blockquote>You do not know this yet. Alot of people in this thread are ASSUMING this to be true. It could simply be that the crafting-only version hasn't been found, or hasn't been added yet. Its on TEST, and there is a ton of griping for something that isn't even live.P.S. I strongly support unique rewards for players who choose to max both crafting and adventuring. I will never understand why the people who choose to only craft think they should be entitled to everything in that sphere.

Raknid

03-27-2012, 12:22 PM

<cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I enjoy it and I think we should get some better recipes and items here and there, but the way we get some of these high quality goods can be a bit of a joke.</blockquote>Now don't you go using that "we" word. Everyone knows the only "real" crafters are those that only craft, and "real" crafters should have everything crafting related available to them at all times. They made it to level 90 in TSing, and by god they should be able to get every single last recipe for their class. They are entitled to no less.There can be no crossover rewards. There can be nothing that sets people apart. Everyone should be able to get that crafting "trophy" that is an elite apprentice.

Leawyn

03-27-2012, 12:28 PM

<cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please give me a break, the pve in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can play without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 adventuring is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even killing a single mob or doing a single adventurer quest, just wandering around doing crafting crap. <div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 weeks on any given character. But the gameplay in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force crafters to adventure, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few crafters who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div></blockquote>Please give me a break, the CRAFTING in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can CRAFT without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 CRAFTING is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even CRAFTING a single OBJECT, just wandering around doing QUESTS. <div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 DAYS on any given character. But the CRAFTING in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force ADVENTURERS to CRAFT, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few ADVENTURERS who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div>

Koleg

03-27-2012, 12:54 PM

Senya

03-27-2012, 01:37 PM

A tradeskill apprentice is not a high quality piece of adventure gear. It's a recipe researcher. As a tradeskiller I don't expect high end adventure gear for my efforts. I do expect my high end tradeskill-centric stuff to come from high end tradeskill-centric things. At the very least they should be tradeable or heirloom.I'm willing to do any number of tradeskill quests, grind out faction as slow as they want to possibly make it to grind, craft with a time limit, sneak around in zones (and die in those zones) to get whatever I need to get, do any number of tradeskill instances, or any other such task to better my tradeskillers with gear, bonuses, and recipes. I log in and play all 9 of my characters every single day. Every day I log in and work on skills or factions that not every one of them have. I have a list of tradeskill-oriented goals I want to accomplish with each and every one of them. None of those goals included adventure things and in the all time I've played EQII it never needed to. I was a level 7/70 back in '06. I leveled up when it took multiple combines to make a single item and worts were all the rage. My other character, at that time, was raiding in Deathtoll. It's been a long time ago for sure but I don't recall my level 7/70 not having any access to crafter recipes because she didn't adventure. I may have had to buy advanced books, but I didn't have to level adventuring to get my recipes.

Vieray

03-27-2012, 01:40 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please give me a break, the pve in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can play without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 adventuring is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even killing a single mob or doing a single adventurer quest, just wandering around doing crafting crap. <div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 weeks on any given character. But the gameplay in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force crafters to adventure, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few crafters who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div></blockquote>Please give me a break, the CRAFTING in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can CRAFT without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 CRAFTING is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even CRAFTING a single OBJECT, just wandering around doing QUESTS. <div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 DAYS on any given character. But the CRAFTING in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force ADVENTURERS to CRAFT, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few ADVENTURERS who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div></blockquote>I'm pretty sure this post coupled with the "There aren't, to my knowledge, any adventuring items that require you to risk being instantly killed over 300 times in 5 minutes" pretty much make this my favorite thread ever. The fact that the changed wording is how things actually are makes me wonder if the original poster was some kind of clever troll leaving that kind of set up. Why shouldn't someone who raids at a high level and crafts at a high level have access to knowledge that someone who does either one or the other does not? Trying to compare the difficultly of crafting (which is completely PvE by the way a term I keep seeing thrown around only in regards to adventuring) to that of a hard mode raid encouter is something I am finding hard to fathom...honestly I got too bored with the tradeskill quests to finish the prayer shawl so how does it compare in difficultly to clearing a zone like HM Kraytoc? Maybe I'll waste some time finishing my prayer shawl so I'll be able to compare the two perhaps that will give me the perspective I need to see tradeskilling in the proper light compared to raiding.

Raknid

03-27-2012, 02:00 PM

You know, it would be a little different if we were talking about this being a group instance, or a raid, but it's not. This is a SOLO instance. Therefore, the only thing that is keeping anyone from getting it is their own drive and desire. It appears to be a reward for people who have leveled up to 90 in both adventuring and tradeskills. I hope it stays that way, and I hope they offer more things that help people differentiate and distuingish themselves from everyone else.

Neskonlith

03-27-2012, 02:02 PM

Why all the hate against tradeskilling and crafters?Seeing a lot of insults and color commentary in this thread that appears intended to provoke emotional responses rather than discussion on the topic at hand, and appears like there's a lot of pointless bickering over which playstyle is superior to the other which only derails from genuine feedback.Can't we all just accept that there are other aspects of the game that are just as valid to participate in, and let other subscribers enjoy playing in the manner of their own choosing?

Mermut

03-27-2012, 02:05 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>This doesn't personally affect me as my 4 level 90 tradeskillers are also level 90 adventurers, however it is a signifiant change from what has been in the game from launch. With the exception of Wurmslayer, which was in my opinion a different thing altogether, this will mark the first time that a pure tradeskiller has not had a way to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in existence for that tradeskill class.</blockquote>You do not know this yet. Alot of people in this thread are ASSUMING this to be true. It could simply be that the crafting-only version hasn't been found, or hasn't been added yet. Its on TEST, and there is a ton of griping for something that isn't even live.P.S. I strongly support unique rewards for players who choose to max both crafting and adventuring. I will never understand why the people who choose to only craft think they should be entitled to everything in that sphere.</blockquote>I do both, and I don't think that tradeskillers should be 'entitled' to everything. I DO think that all recipes should be obtainable by tradeskillers who are not adventurers. Just like I think adventuring rewards should be obtainable by adventurers who are not tradeskillers. As some people have been saying, if it requires adventure level to 'loot' the thing, it should be brokerable. If adventure level weren't required to enter the zone and the instance was duoable, low level adventurers/high level tradeskillers could work with a high level adventurer to get it. I'm not asking for it 'for free'.I would love to seem some long involved questline (crafting questline) to earn the 'elite' tradeskill apprentice, something that requires a fair amount of time and effort. Unfortunately, I have a sad feeling that any craftskill questline that is even as involved and well thought out as the ones that came with the DoV launch are a thing of the past. I could be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'd love to win the lottery too..It is possible that they have tradeskiller friendly ways 'in the works', but given the sad state of the tradeskilling stuff on test right now (missing icons for harvestables, recipes making the wrong item, wrong tags on items, mastercrafted and handcrafted having little relationship to eachother, total lack of any lvl 90 recipe books, etc) I think it is highly improbable that there is a whole questline for crafters 'in the works' right now.I just think it is a very bad idea to tie something that is completely tradeskill related (a tradeskill apprentice) to adventure level. It doesn't have to be easy to get. Heck, I don't think it should be easy to get. But I think it should be obtainable by tradeskillers without a high adventure level.

Neskonlith

03-27-2012, 02:07 PM

An easy solution for this situation could be for SOE to do what they have done before: offer a (Tradeskill) instance option at the zone-in portal, and make it require lvl92 tradeskill to enter.Inside can be a daily tradeskill quest, as well as the tradeskill apprentice.Crafters are happy, and adventurers are happy!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Leawyn

03-27-2012, 02:13 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is possible that they have tradeskiller friendly ways 'in the works', but given the sad state of the tradeskilling stuff on test right now (missing icons for harvestables, recipes making the wrong item, wrong tags on items, mastercrafted and handcrafted having little relationship to eachother, total lack of any lvl 90 recipe books, etc) I think it is highly improbable that there is a whole questline for crafters 'in the works' right now.</blockquote>I think the fact that TS stuff is in such disarray might actually support that a TS way to get this (or another) apprentice is not yet on test. Dev's that work on adventuring do not work on tradeskill. The tradeskill dev might not have had his stuff pushed to test yet (as is obvious by the myriad of broken TS related things). I guess we'll see if they ever do make it to test. I have a sinking suspicion this level raise was a last-minute decision and alot of stuff is having to be thrown together to make it work. Remember that when it first hit test, you couldn't even level past 90 in either sphere!

Koleg

03-27-2012, 02:37 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do both, and I don't think that tradeskillers should be 'entitled' to everything. I DO think that all recipes should be obtainable by tradeskillers who are not adventurers. Just like I think adventuring rewards should be obtainable by adventurers who are not tradeskillers. As some people have been saying, if it requires adventure level to 'loot' the thing, it should be brokerable. If adventure level weren't required to enter the zone and the instance was duoable, low level adventurers/high level tradeskillers could work with a high level adventurer to get it. I'm not asking for it 'for free'.I would love to seem some long involved questline (crafting questline) to earn the 'elite' tradeskill apprentice, something that requires a fair amount of time and effort. Unfortunately, I have a sad feeling that any craftskill questline that is even as involved and well thought out as the ones that came with the DoV launch are a thing of the past. I could be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'd love to win the lottery too..It is possible that they have tradeskiller friendly ways 'in the works', but given the sad state of the tradeskilling stuff on test right now (missing icons for harvestables, recipes making the wrong item, wrong tags on items, mastercrafted and handcrafted having little relationship to eachother, total lack of any lvl 90 recipe books, etc) I think it is highly improbable that there is a whole questline for crafters 'in the works' right now.I just think it is a very bad idea to tie something that is completely tradeskill related (a tradeskill apprentice) to adventure level. It doesn't have to be easy to get. Heck, I don't think it should be easy to get. But I think it should be obtainable by tradeskillers without a high adventure level.</blockquote>Under the current state of Tradeskilling I'll grant you time is involved, but effort is far from present.

Gaealiege

03-27-2012, 03:13 PM

Oh and if you die on a wave to gain the apprentice you cannot continue. You have to wait the 18 hours for the zone to reset.I ran my warlock there and started the event. The first wave decided for some reason to pull 3-4 encounters through the zone with it, so I feigned death. The waves will not recontinue and the droag simply tells me to leave him alone as I'm a coward. =(

Yimway

03-27-2012, 03:32 PM

I would normally have agreed with the OP on this however....Is there really an issue with a reward for the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game?

Senya

03-27-2012, 04:10 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would normally have agreed with the OP on this however....Is there really an issue with a reward for the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game?</blockquote>No, it's not an issue with rewarding the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game. But why not make that reward a title, a unique looking appearance set, a prestige house, a really unique mount with adventure and tradeskill stats, a clicky-from-inventory item with an effect that buffs adventure and tradeskill stats, or something of that nature. Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.

Raknid

03-27-2012, 04:14 PM

<cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would normally have agreed with the OP on this however....Is there really an issue with a reward for the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game?</blockquote>No, it's not an issue with rewarding the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game. But why not make that reward a title, a unique looking appearance set, a prestige house, a really unique mount with adventure and tradeskill stats, a clicky-from-inventory item with an effect that buffs adventure and tradeskill stats, or something of that nature. Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>So it boils down to you don't want to do something to get them so they shouldn't be recipes? Why think that every recipe should be available to every TSer? (besides "it has always been that way").

Tylia

03-27-2012, 04:15 PM

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, someone a page or two up replied to and accused Rijacki of being a snobish raider or something of the sort. Which is funny. If anyone knows tradeskilling at all, then they know that Rijacki has always been an active TSer and active in TS forums/feedback. This doesn't personally affect me as my 4 level 90 tradeskillers are also level 90 adventurers, however it is a signifiant change from what has been in the game from launch. With the exception of Wurmslayer, which was in my opinion a different thing altogether, this will mark the first time that a pure tradeskiller has not had a way to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in existence for that tradeskill class. I mark Wurmslayer as different, because it was a heritage quest which made a no-trade item that was for the one person who completed the quest, not potentially a number of end game items. The more appropriate comparison would either be the recipes from Emerald Halls, which were purchaseable on the broker, or the rare drops that used to make the first incarnation of fabled mastercrafted. At least as I recall, they were marked as such- you had to get the rare from a raid zone, and use it in combination with a mastercrafted item to upgrade. These items are no longer in game though and I don't remember enough about them. The EH recipes made raid quality gear, but the recipes were available to tradeskillers via purchase or trade. If these apprentices were a drop and available to tradeskillers via broker purchase, then it would be a moot point, and it would be along the same lines of EH, or other raid or group attainable recipes. I do like the idea of something "extra" for those who make the effort to go 90/90, but I have qualms about the resulting recipes being the best available recipes for the tradeskill class. It seems to me that in keeping with the spirit of the game as well as set precedence, any recipes available to only 90/90 players would make more sense to be fluff and allow the 90 tradeskillers a way to get the best recipes available to their class. Alternatively, perhaps a 90/90 would have the ability to use their experience as an adventurer to "enhance" an existing recipe. They know better than a pure tradeskiller what would work, so they can put a finishing touch on it, making the item just a little better.Do something similar to the TS epic where you had to enter a zone full of red ^^^ mobs, and you had to use something you had crafted to put them to sleep....or have periodic crafting stations in a special instance of these zones where you have to craft a machine to kill the mobs for you....or the simplest solution would be to permit level 90 tradeskillers to zone into the zones in question, instead of requiring a level 90 adventurer.</blockquote>Ok, so a player that is a 90 adventurer AND a 90 tradeskiller isn't really a tradeskiller and shouldn't have access to the best recipes available to their class? I see.. they are only smart enough to make fluff because they have been smacked upside the head too many times by mobs out in the wild. Only those tradeskillers who are very low level adventurer and haven't suffered any form of brain damage are smart enough to make the best recipes. Gottcha. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would normally have agreed with the OP on this however....Is there really an issue with a reward for the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game?</blockquote>Exactly. The apprentice is an "elite". Something extra special, and someone who has put in the time and effort (and I don't care what some nay-sayers will say.. getting to 90/90 on multiple characters took time and effort) should be able to obtain something extra special. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Whilhelmina

03-27-2012, 04:17 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and if you die on a wave to gain the apprentice you cannot continue. You have to wait the 18 hours for the zone to reset.I ran my warlock there and started the event. The first wave decided for some reason to pull 3-4 encounters through the zone with it, so I feigned death. The waves will not recontinue and the droag simply tells me to leave him alone as I'm a coward. =(</blockquote>It's not true, it worked for me. It may be that you have to actually die for it to continue.You said that you feigned death on first wave, I assume after fighting a little bit?For my part my merc and my pet died on the 3rd wave (droags with their evil curse) and I died on the last one (the 2 osseous things). When I came back after dying, the 2 mobs were at the entrance of the alley, I killed them with my pet and the droag finished it's dialog without problems.Fleeing or feigning death seems to be a trigger for the droag to call you a coward I suppose. We'll have to try dying on first wave to check what it was.

Raknid

03-27-2012, 04:18 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Exactly. The apprentice is an "elite". Something extra special, and someone who has put in the time and effort (and I don't care what some nay-sayers will say.. getting to 90/90 on multiple characters took time and effort) should be able to obtain something extra special. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Agreed 100%. The game needs more "special" stuff for people. Hopefully this is just the start.

Gaealiege

03-27-2012, 04:23 PM

I FD'd when I realized 20 mobs were rushing at me instead of the usual 3 on the first wave. After that I was not allowed to continue the ring event whatsoever. I camped, zoned out, zoned back in, logged to a different character entirely, logged back. It definitely hates people that FD. Perhaps you're right about actual death, but I can assure you that feign death 100% bugs it.

Cloudrat

03-27-2012, 04:30 PM

The more I read the more I think hmm well looks like what we have here is a move toward having less professions. Remember when they took away all the milestones in choosing adventure class? This will narrow the choices for crafting and one day maybe we can just need one crafter.For these elite recipes which cover a myriad of items you only need 3 crafters<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I like this lol will need less toons and won't need to expand and buy slots for alts just to have all 9 crafters. Well done!

Raknid

03-27-2012, 04:42 PM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote>The more I read the more I think hmm well looks like what we have here is a move toward having less professions. Remember when they took away all the milestones in choosing adventure class? This will narrow the choices for crafting and one day maybe we can just need one crafter.For these elite recipes which cover a myriad of items you only need 3 crafters<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I like this lol will need less toons and won't need to expand and buy slots for alts just to have all 9 crafters. Well done!</blockquote>They probably did it to lessen the amount of 90/90s you are required to have in order to get all the recipes.

Raknid

03-27-2012, 04:48 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I FD'd when I realized 20 mobs were rushing at me instead of the usual 3 on the first wave. After that I was not allowed to continue the ring event whatsoever. I camped, zoned out, zoned back in, logged to a different character entirely, logged back. It definitely hates people that FD. Perhaps you're right about actual death, but I can assure you that feign death 100% bugs it.</blockquote>You know. It just occured to me. If this was an NPC that offered a non-tradable recipe book instead of an apprentice, it would be just about the same thing as way back in the KoS days.I imagine they wanted to "attach" it to the AoD expansion though so they called it an apprentice instead.

Hordolin Awanagin

03-27-2012, 05:59 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I FD'd when I realized 20 mobs were rushing at me instead of the usual 3 on the first wave. After that I was not allowed to continue the ring event whatsoever. I camped, zoned out, zoned back in, logged to a different character entirely, logged back. It definitely hates people that FD. Perhaps you're right about actual death, but I can assure you that feign death 100% bugs it.</blockquote>The mobs return to their spawn point which is not obviously visible in the first and second wave unless you clear the rest of the area first. You have to pull them to re-engage the encounter and it picks back up from there. If you actually clear most of the trash mobs before doing the encounter you can see where they are if the encounter 'breaks'.

Yimway

03-27-2012, 06:18 PM

<cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would normally have agreed with the OP on this however....Is there really an issue with a reward for the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game?</blockquote>No, it's not an issue with rewarding the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game. But why not make that reward a title, a unique looking appearance set, a prestige house, a really unique mount with adventure and tradeskill stats, a clicky-from-inventory item with an effect that buffs adventure and tradeskill stats, or something of that nature. Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Hmm, I guess it could e something else but honestly EVERYTHING else you listed has no interest to me.

Deveryn

03-27-2012, 07:13 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would normally have agreed with the OP on this however....Is there really an issue with a reward for the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game?</blockquote>No, it's not an issue with rewarding the player who has mastered multiple elements of the game. But why not make that reward a title, a unique looking appearance set, a prestige house, a really unique mount with adventure and tradeskill stats, a clicky-from-inventory item with an effect that buffs adventure and tradeskill stats, or something of that nature. Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Hmm, I guess it could e something else but honestly EVERYTHING else you listed has no interest to me.</blockquote>I agree. There's nothing of interest there. For me, the house might be the only exception, but I only see those as raid drops. I don't even raid anymore, so I'm missing out there. :p

gatrm

03-27-2012, 07:33 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, someone a page or two up replied to and accused Rijacki of being a snobish raider or something of the sort. Which is funny. If anyone knows tradeskilling at all, then they know that Rijacki has always been an active TSer and active in TS forums/feedback. This doesn't personally affect me as my 4 level 90 tradeskillers are also level 90 adventurers, however it is a signifiant change from what has been in the game from launch. With the exception of Wurmslayer, which was in my opinion a different thing altogether, this will mark the first time that a pure tradeskiller has not had a way to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in existence for that tradeskill class. I mark Wurmslayer as different, because it was a heritage quest which made a no-trade item that was for the one person who completed the quest, not potentially a number of end game items. The more appropriate comparison would either be the recipes from Emerald Halls, which were purchaseable on the broker, or the rare drops that used to make the first incarnation of fabled mastercrafted. At least as I recall, they were marked as such- you had to get the rare from a raid zone, and use it in combination with a mastercrafted item to upgrade. These items are no longer in game though and I don't remember enough about them. The EH recipes made raid quality gear, but the recipes were available to tradeskillers via purchase or trade. If these apprentices were a drop and available to tradeskillers via broker purchase, then it would be a moot point, and it would be along the same lines of EH, or other raid or group attainable recipes. I do like the idea of something "extra" for those who make the effort to go 90/90, but I have qualms about the resulting recipes being the best available recipes for the tradeskill class. It seems to me that in keeping with the spirit of the game as well as set precedence, any recipes available to only 90/90 players would make more sense to be fluff and allow the 90 tradeskillers a way to get the best recipes available to their class. Alternatively, perhaps a 90/90 would have the ability to use their experience as an adventurer to "enhance" an existing recipe. They know better than a pure tradeskiller what would work, so they can put a finishing touch on it, making the item just a little better.Do something similar to the TS epic where you had to enter a zone full of red ^^^ mobs, and you had to use something you had crafted to put them to sleep....or have periodic crafting stations in a special instance of these zones where you have to craft a machine to kill the mobs for you....or the simplest solution would be to permit level 90 tradeskillers to zone into the zones in question, instead of requiring a level 90 adventurer.</blockquote>Ok, so a player that is a 90 adventurer AND a 90 tradeskiller isn't really a tradeskiller and shouldn't have access to the best recipes available to their class? I see.. they are only smart enough to make fluff because they have been smacked upside the head too many times by mobs out in the wild. Only those tradeskillers who are very low level adventurer and haven't suffered any form of brain damage are smart enough to make the best recipes. Gottcha. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Did you actually read what I wrote? I ask because your summation isn't close to what I wrote. I am simply saying that a level 90 tradeskiller should have some method of obtaining the best existing recipes that their chosen proffesion can make. No where did I say that only sub 90 adventurers/90 crafters should get these recipes. It frankly astounds me that so many believe that it should only be possible to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in the game by adventuring. /sarcasm Based on what some of you people are saying, it sounds as though you believe that adventurers should not be able to obtain grandmaster abilities without also being a 90 tradeskiller. /end sarcasm

jjlo69

03-27-2012, 07:43 PM

in all honesty 90+ percent of the player base shoudl have at least one 90/90 toon this late into the game...

Raknid

03-27-2012, 07:59 PM

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, someone a page or two up replied to and accused Rijacki of being a snobish raider or something of the sort. Which is funny. If anyone knows tradeskilling at all, then they know that Rijacki has always been an active TSer and active in TS forums/feedback. This doesn't personally affect me as my 4 level 90 tradeskillers are also level 90 adventurers, however it is a signifiant change from what has been in the game from launch. With the exception of Wurmslayer, which was in my opinion a different thing altogether, this will mark the first time that a pure tradeskiller has not had a way to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in existence for that tradeskill class. I mark Wurmslayer as different, because it was a heritage quest which made a no-trade item that was for the one person who completed the quest, not potentially a number of end game items. The more appropriate comparison would either be the recipes from Emerald Halls, which were purchaseable on the broker, or the rare drops that used to make the first incarnation of fabled mastercrafted. At least as I recall, they were marked as such- you had to get the rare from a raid zone, and use it in combination with a mastercrafted item to upgrade. These items are no longer in game though and I don't remember enough about them. The EH recipes made raid quality gear, but the recipes were available to tradeskillers via purchase or trade. If these apprentices were a drop and available to tradeskillers via broker purchase, then it would be a moot point, and it would be along the same lines of EH, or other raid or group attainable recipes. I do like the idea of something "extra" for those who make the effort to go 90/90, but I have qualms about the resulting recipes being the best available recipes for the tradeskill class. It seems to me that in keeping with the spirit of the game as well as set precedence, any recipes available to only 90/90 players would make more sense to be fluff and allow the 90 tradeskillers a way to get the best recipes available to their class. Alternatively, perhaps a 90/90 would have the ability to use their experience as an adventurer to "enhance" an existing recipe. They know better than a pure tradeskiller what would work, so they can put a finishing touch on it, making the item just a little better.Do something similar to the TS epic where you had to enter a zone full of red ^^^ mobs, and you had to use something you had crafted to put them to sleep....or have periodic crafting stations in a special instance of these zones where you have to craft a machine to kill the mobs for you....or the simplest solution would be to permit level 90 tradeskillers to zone into the zones in question, instead of requiring a level 90 adventurer.</blockquote>Ok, so a player that is a 90 adventurer AND a 90 tradeskiller isn't really a tradeskiller and shouldn't have access to the best recipes available to their class? I see.. they are only smart enough to make fluff because they have been smacked upside the head too many times by mobs out in the wild. Only those tradeskillers who are very low level adventurer and haven't suffered any form of brain damage are smart enough to make the best recipes. Gottcha. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Did you actually read what I wrote? I ask because your summation isn't close to what I wrote. I am simply saying that a level 90 tradeskiller should have some method of obtaining the best existing recipes that their chosen proffesion can make. No where did I say that only sub 90 adventurers/90 crafters should get these recipes. It frankly astounds me that so many believe that it should only be possible to obtain the best tradeskill recipes in the game by adventuring. /sarcasm Based on what some of you people are saying, it sounds as though you believe that adventurers should not be able to obtain grandmaster abilities without also being a 90 tradeskiller. /end sarcasm</blockquote>Are the people that are getting these recipes tradeskillers? Yes? Well then tradeskillers are getting them.Your issue is you think that everything in the game needs to be available to every single person. I don't agree.

Laliya

03-27-2012, 08:27 PM

Maybe stupid question, but where are the other apprentices? I thought we should have much more than that droag?

Whilhelmina

03-27-2012, 08:32 PM

<cite>Uncle@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>in all honesty 90+ percent of the player base shoudl have at least one 90/90 toon this late into the game...</blockquote>Yes, it's probably true. So why not make this item heirloom or something like that so we may get it on all our TS alts?

Meirril

03-27-2012, 09:05 PM

Leawyn

03-27-2012, 09:27 PM

<cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?

Meirril

03-27-2012, 09:29 PM

<cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinyard@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>For people saying "bah good, making it adventuring makes it really hard for those easy mode crafters who just breezed to 90!" Sure. You can get 90 by just grinding writs or whatever. But if you actually do the quests and get the faction so you can unlock stuff, it is by no means easy. For instance, if you do the blessed coldain prayer shawl quest, you have to:1) get 40k faction, 2,500 faction at a time, once a day2) do 5 timed very hard combines full of complications that KILL YOU INSTANTLY. You run out of time easily. I am on my 2nd go at it. I had a lag spike and missed a click by 1 second and died instantly. There aren't, to my knowledge, any adventuring items that require you to risk being instantly killed over 300 times in 5 minutes.I'd like to see adventuring stuff instagib you if you hit one tiny lag spike.I'm all for harder requirements for tradeskillers to get stuff that is elite, just make it in line with tradeskilling - the adventuring side of this game isn't hard, it is in fact in my opinion tedious button-mashing grindfest of "kill X, deliver X, gather X."Make it like some of the quests leading to the Earring of the Solstice - they were hard, you had to think, and they were tradeskill flavored. Make the final comine a KILL YOU DEAD combine like the shawl. Then let's see the adventurers try it and tell us we have it so easy :p</blockquote>1) There are tons of bosses/trash mobs that will do this. Please don't talk about adventuring if you have no experience in it2) Earring of the Solstice was not hard. I did not have to think. All I had to do was ZAM it, and follow the steps. The shawl quest was not hard either, it was just time consuming getting the faction, and then time consuming finding the people to make the other parts. It was such a joke.</blockquote><ol><li>Sure, if you solo stuff, don't heal yourself, and ignore all semblance of strategy and in general, play like a total idiot.</li><li>Sure, you read a spoiler and blitzed through the quest without actually trying to think for yourself. Want a cookie for having basic literacy skills? Imagine if you hadn't read a spoiler, and figured out everything all by yourself, as people had to do before they were kind enough to spoon feed you the information.</li></ol><div>Please give me a break, the pve in this game is ridiculously cheesy easy mode crap. Every class can play without touching more than 1 hotbar of abilities to get all the way to 90. Acting like getting to 90 adventuring is some sort of accomplishment makes me laugh. I got 10 levels without even killing a single mob or doing a single adventurer quest, just wandering around doing crafting crap. </div><div></div><div>I could level all the way to 90 in 3 weeks on any given character. But the gameplay in this game is boring - why on earth do I want to force myself to do something so boring that I read a book while I do it?</div><div></div><div>If you want to ensure a small supply of a crafted product enters the gameworld, this is the way to do it - force crafters to adventure, which many don't want to do, because it's boring - and whala, you will have very few crafters who bother getting the recipes to begin with. Grats you!</div></blockquote>It really sounds like you haven't reached 90 in adventuring at all in EQ2. There are not only raid encounters that can one shot the best geared tanks in the game, there are also instances that have bosses that can one shot even raid equipped tanks if their script is being ignored.You know, kinda like how a 90 crafter can be killed doing crafting if he ignores the script for doing the shawl combines. The big difference here is the crafter only has himself to blame. In group or raid content one person can do something that kills everybody. Or fails to do something that kills everybody.Ignorence excuses a certain amount of disrespect. However, I'd suggest reading and trying to understand when someone objects to your obviously uninformed opinion.

Meirril

03-27-2012, 09:34 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>It is a fairly safe assumption. The new apprentice (by reports) only offers the new recipes, not the old recipes. If the old apprentices were going to offer the new recipes, shouldn't the new apprentices also offer the old recipes?

yohann koldheart

03-27-2012, 09:47 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.

Leawyn

03-27-2012, 09:54 PM

<cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.</blockquote>And yet, you still don't know that this one apprentices is the ONLY T10 apprentice. It was only recently found out, so maybe the TS version just hasn't been found yet, or isn't on test yet.

Mermut

03-27-2012, 10:21 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.</blockquote>And yet, you still don't know that this one apprentices is the ONLY T10 apprentice. It was only recently found out, so maybe the TS version just hasn't been found yet, or isn't on test yet.</blockquote>Erm... why would there be an 'adventure version' of something that is only benificial to tradeskillers?

Hordolin Awanagin

03-27-2012, 10:39 PM

<cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.</blockquote>Incorrect. Right click the apprentice and Coach.

Xianthia

03-27-2012, 10:59 PM

<cite>Hordolin Awanagin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.</blockquote>Incorrect. Right click the apprentice and Coach.</blockquote>Not sure where you saw that you can coach the apprentice (the new Elite one), mine has some verbage as to not being able to do anything to speed him up.Unless this was changed today, otherwise there is no way to speed him up.reading comprehension ftw! I didn't try the right click until I posted the prior message. No quest for speeding it up and I didn't take note of how much time was actually shaved off.

Leawyn

03-27-2012, 11:51 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.</blockquote>And yet, you still don't know that this one apprentices is the ONLY T10 apprentice. It was only recently found out, so maybe the TS version just hasn't been found yet, or isn't on test yet.</blockquote>Erm... why would there be an 'adventure version' of something that is only benificial to tradeskillers?</blockquote>For people who are both adventurers and crafters. A nice reward for being both. I mean, one of the people who found this said:<cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>He says he was badly wounded during the attack on the city, and that he is more of an artisan than a fighter and appears surprised when you mention you are a tradeskiller as well. He then offers you his services.</blockquote>

Mermut

03-28-2012, 12:35 AM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yohann koldheart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why make recipes unobtainable thru any means other than adventuring? I have a 90/90, but I have other tradeskillers that I've worked hard at making sure they have skills, factions, tradeskill gear, tradeskill aa's, and recipes. Those characters will have no way, other than leveling as adventurers, to get their recipes.</blockquote>Again, you have no idea if this is the ONLY way to obtain the recipes. Why would old apprentices suddenly not give new recipes when the GU is released? Why do you think this particular apprentice is the ONLY one that's going to give you 90+ recipes?</blockquote>the new aprentice will be the only way to get the recipes .the new aprentice works different then the old one, as in you cant speed up the process at all, no daily quest, no "let me show you" advance , no nothing . you wait 18 days for a recipethe new recipes dont require reactants, they need 6 + harvested rares ,most of the alchy recipes take 3 or 4 different rares to make .so they wont just let the old aprentice automaticly have the new recipes.</blockquote>And yet, you still don't know that this one apprentices is the ONLY T10 apprentice. It was only recently found out, so maybe the TS version just hasn't been found yet, or isn't on test yet.</blockquote>Erm... why would there be an 'adventure version' of something that is only benificial to tradeskillers?</blockquote>For people who are both adventurers and crafters. A nice reward for being both. I mean, one of the people who found this said:<cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>He says he was badly wounded during the attack on the city, and that he is more of an artisan than a fighter and appears surprised when you mention you are a tradeskiller as well. He then offers you his services.</blockquote></blockquote>If it was really a reward for being 'both', then you would have to be 90/90 to be able to WEAR the items from the recipes the guy makes as well. Having it just be the ability to GET the recipes... i just don't see any good reason to restrict that to 90/90. (( I have 5 90/90 toons, btw, so it's not a case of 'I want but can't get'. ))

Rijacki

03-28-2012, 11:54 AM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it was really a reward for being 'both', then you would have to be 90/90 to be able to WEAR the items from the recipes the guy makes as well. Having it just be the ability to GET the recipes... i just don't see any good reason to restrict that to 90/90. (( I have 5 90/90 toons, btw, so it's not a case of 'I want but can't get'. ))</blockquote>The recipes are the reward. How desirable the items are for other players is also the reward. If only the crafter could use the items made from the recipes, it wouldn't be much of a tradeskill reward at all.

RandomStream

03-28-2012, 12:11 PM

Two thoughts occur to me.1. I trust the items produced by these recipes will be NO TRADE (or perhaps HEIRLOOM), so the level 90 Adventurer who uses them needs to be (or be on the same account as) the level 90 Tradeskiller who makes them. That is the elite items are only available to elite players, those who are both level 90 Tradeskillers and Adventurers.2. There several ways to identify an elite Tradeskiller, (Solstice Earring, Pack Pony and Coldain Prayer Shawl) surely these should be the prerequsites for obtaining an elite (Tradeskill) Apprentice.(On Live, all except for two of my 13 Level 90 Crafters are level 90 Adventurers while all my level 90 Adventurers are level 90 Crafters so I am nearly impartial in this debate.)

RandomStream

03-28-2012, 12:19 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it was really a reward for being 'both', then you would have to be 90/90 to be able to WEAR the items from the recipes the guy makes as well. Having it just be the ability to GET the recipes... i just don't see any good reason to restrict that to 90/90. (( I have 5 90/90 toons, btw, so it's not a case of 'I want but can't get'. ))</blockquote>The recipes are the reward. How desirable the items are for other players is also the reward. If only the crafter could use the items made from the recipes, it wouldn't be much of a tradeskill reward at all.</blockquote>But that is what SOE are doing by stopping players selling looting rights. You only get what you earn, you can't buy it for plat.If this line of thought were carried to it's logical conclusion you would need to to be a top level Adventurer and Crafter (with 320 AA) to get hold of Top Level Kit. You might even have to have 460 Adorning Skill to adorn it properly. You might need 460 Tinkering and Transmuting as well. But that is not the EQ2 we have grown to know and love, it's another game. I don't now which.It seems I've bought a Hoax/ Mis-information Line. Sorry. (But there might be an interesting game there for Hard Core players, especailly if you had to make your own Armor, Weapons, Spells etc. with ingredients you gathered yourself or with friends.)

Raknid

03-28-2012, 12:39 PM

Beyond the basic recipes, there have always been prerequisites to obtain better recipes. In this case the prerequisite is being level 90 adv and TS, and the recipes are given in a "book" that you can only read every 18 days.All are usable by the intended class, and virtually all are tradable.

Mermut

03-28-2012, 01:20 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it was really a reward for being 'both', then you would have to be 90/90 to be able to WEAR the items from the recipes the guy makes as well. Having it just be the ability to GET the recipes... i just don't see any good reason to restrict that to 90/90. (( I have 5 90/90 toons, btw, so it's not a case of 'I want but can't get'. ))</blockquote>The recipes are the reward. How desirable the items are for other players is also the reward. If only the crafter could use the items made from the recipes, it wouldn't be much of a tradeskill reward at all.</blockquote>I'm just failing to see why an adventure level should have anything to do with a character's ability to craft a recipe. Something that is a reward for being 'both' an adventurer and a tradeskiller should benifit 'both sides'.. ie the adventurer and a tradeskiller. Being able to craft an item doesn't give the adventurer side any benefit since ANY adventurer can have the item crafted for them. Only the tradeskiller portion of the toon gains anything by having the recipe. If the recipe was non-commisionable, that would be different.. again, it would be a case of essentially having to be 90/90 to aquire the crafted item, not just the recipe.Since the adventurer side of the 90/90 toon recieves no benefit over any other 90 adventurer who can have the item crafted for them, what is the logical reason for requiring the crafter to be a level 90 adventurer to GET the recipes?

Rageincarnate

03-28-2012, 01:25 PM

can someone post some facts about this guy?other then you can aqquire him in a level 90 instance? what does he do? what does he research?Time needed for recipies?

ratbast

03-28-2012, 01:32 PM

my guess is that this is a response to the explosion of crafters since TS apprentices dropped reactants. leveling up crafting is so easy, this is another gate to solidify real toons real ppl play. i think its (requiring 90 adv) very unfair to age old crafters from the old days where they had to walk uphill in the snow BOTH WAYS to gain a single level. game has been evolving, sadly this might be a necessary change <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i wouldnt be surprised to see crafting leveling slowed down a lot either. was a question in the recent in-game poll. besides that, it does seem like being 90/90 should have SOME reward or congratulations.

Lempo

03-28-2012, 01:36 PM

This is an awesome idea, it is a reward that is available only to players that are max level adventurers and crafters.It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle, it simply rewards those that are both adventurers and crafters.Please hold your ground on this SOE, there is nothing wrong with it at all.

Hordolin Awanagin

03-28-2012, 01:46 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>can someone post some facts about this guy?other then you can aqquire him in a level 90 instance? what does he do? what does he research?Time needed for recipies?</blockquote>For my Alchemist:12 items all say level 91 in the research window.1 Wrist1 Ring1 Neck1 Earring4 Elixers4 Totems18 Days and 7 hours to research each item.

Yimway

03-28-2012, 01:57 PM

I'm fine with labeling these as prestige crafting recipes that might require maxing both adventure and crafting level to get them.And for the record, many of my crafters are not max level, so I'm excluding myself from content by favoring that position. But I think my 90 carp who is a level 30 adventurer probably shouldn't fairly be able to unlock exactly as much as someone who is a carp on their main and basicaly done everything in the game.I'd even favor a few more special things unlocked only via mastery. I can think of another of achievements that could potentially unlock a recipe that could make me a more unique armorer (my main's tradeskill class). Things that 1000 other armorers wouldn't have easily accomplished. Something that distinguishes those players who play a wider breadth of the game and accomplish more things I think is a good thing for this game.It might, just might, give players some more things to focus on accomplishing when they log in rather than just hanging out in the guild hall waiting for something to happen.

Chronus1

03-28-2012, 02:43 PM

The outfitter stuff is all level 90 raid level or near raid level items anyway so it's not even useable for people that don't adventure so your outfitters won't miss a thing.And to be honest being able to get raid level gear (we're talking better than hardmode release in some slots such as cleric gloves) without being level 90 would be pointless and not sit well with me anyway.

1rocketjones

03-28-2012, 03:09 PM

I really hope tradeskill drops are added to raid loot tables.

Neskonlith

03-28-2012, 03:10 PM

<cite>Chronus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The outfitter stuff is all level 90 raid level or near raid level items anyway so it's not even useable for people that don't adventure so your outfitters won't miss a thing.</blockquote>Crafters won't miss a thing except the opportunity to be crafters with desirable products available to sell to adventurers. Who do those merchants think they are, trying to create useful items to sell on the broker, anyways?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Tylia

03-28-2012, 03:15 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it was really a reward for being 'both', then you would have to be 90/90 to be able to WEAR the items from the recipes the guy makes as well. Having it just be the ability to GET the recipes... i just don't see any good reason to restrict that to 90/90. (( I have 5 90/90 toons, btw, so it's not a case of 'I want but can't get'. ))</blockquote>The recipes are the reward. How desirable the items are for other players is also the reward. If only the crafter could use the items made from the recipes, it wouldn't be much of a tradeskill reward at all.</blockquote>I'm just failing to see why an adventure level should have anything to do with a character's ability to craft a recipe. Something that is a reward for being 'both' an adventurer and a tradeskiller should benifit 'both sides'.. ie the adventurer and a tradeskiller. Being able to craft an item doesn't give the adventurer side any benefit since ANY adventurer can have the item crafted for them. Only the tradeskiller portion of the toon gains anything by having the recipe. If the recipe was non-commisionable, that would be different.. again, it would be a case of essentially having to be 90/90 to aquire the crafted item, not just the recipe.Since the adventurer side of the 90/90 toon recieves no benefit over any other 90 adventurer who can have the item crafted for them, what is the logical reason for requiring the crafter to be a level 90 adventurer to GET the recipes?</blockquote>But the adventurer side DOES receive a benefit over any other 90 adventurer, in that they can OBTAIN the apprentice and gain the recipes. Any other adventurer who is NOT a 90 tradeskiller cannot do that. Any other tradeskiller who is NOT a 90 adventurer cannot do that. This is an ELITE reward for taking the time and effort to level up both sides of game play. It is special and should NOT be available to just any adventurer, or just any tradeskiller. Period. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mermut

03-28-2012, 03:45 PM

<cite>Chronus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The outfitter stuff is all level 90 raid level or near raid level items anyway so it's not even useable for people that don't adventure so your outfitters won't miss a thing.And to be honest being able to get raid level gear (we're talking better than hardmode release in some slots such as cleric gloves) without being level 90 would be pointless and not sit well with me anyway.</blockquote>I'm not sure I understand this comment. A level 10 adventuer/ lvl 90sage can't use the lvl 90 experts they can make. They wouldn't be able to use the items from these recipes either. Why should these recieps be different? If people think it is a great idea for crafters to be barred from the 'best' tradeskill recipes based on their adventuring accomplishments, then adventures should be restricted from the 'best' adventure gear based on their tradeskill accomplishments. Don't have the earring of the solistice, your epic crafter earring and the prayer shawl? Sorry you can't enter the zones with the best adventuring gear. I fail to see any logical difference between the two. I think they are both wrong.As I've stated in this thread, it would make sense if the 90/90 requirment gave that toon something that benefitted them for both adventuring and tradeskilling.. and was only useable by people who met the same 90/90 requirement.

Mermut

03-28-2012, 03:46 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it was really a reward for being 'both', then you would have to be 90/90 to be able to WEAR the items from the recipes the guy makes as well. Having it just be the ability to GET the recipes... i just don't see any good reason to restrict that to 90/90. (( I have 5 90/90 toons, btw, so it's not a case of 'I want but can't get'. ))</blockquote>The recipes are the reward. How desirable the items are for other players is also the reward. If only the crafter could use the items made from the recipes, it wouldn't be much of a tradeskill reward at all.</blockquote>I'm just failing to see why an adventure level should have anything to do with a character's ability to craft a recipe. Something that is a reward for being 'both' an adventurer and a tradeskiller should benifit 'both sides'.. ie the adventurer and a tradeskiller. Being able to craft an item doesn't give the adventurer side any benefit since ANY adventurer can have the item crafted for them. Only the tradeskiller portion of the toon gains anything by having the recipe. If the recipe was non-commisionable, that would be different.. again, it would be a case of essentially having to be 90/90 to aquire the crafted item, not just the recipe.Since the adventurer side of the 90/90 toon recieves no benefit over any other 90 adventurer who can have the item crafted for them, what is the logical reason for requiring the crafter to be a level 90 adventurer to GET the recipes?</blockquote>But the adventurer side DOES receive a benefit over any other 90 adventurer, in that they can OBTAIN the apprentice and gain the recipes. Any other adventurer who is NOT a 90 tradeskiller cannot do that. Any other tradeskiller who is NOT a 90 adventurer cannot do that. This is an ELITE reward for taking the time and effort to level up both sides of game play. It is special and should NOT be available to just any adventurer, or just any tradeskiller. Period. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The TRADESKILLER portion of the toon has the advantage. The adventurer side gets no benefit over any other adventurer that knows somebody with the recipe.

Gladiolus

03-28-2012, 03:50 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle</blockquote>Can't imagine why I thought they said Play the game, Your way.

Therendil

03-28-2012, 03:51 PM

I stated in an earlier post that crafting and adventuring are two different lives that should not have much to do with each other. This does leave room, however, for areas where the two can overlap. I have ten level 90 crafters. Three of them are level 90 adventure, and a fourth is working his way up. I hear a lot of noise from crafters who don't want to adventure and lesser noise from adventurers who don't want to craft. That's fine. If people want to play one side or the other, that's a valid choice. BUT, it is also valid to say that players who have put in the time and effort to master both sides of the game should be able to earn special rewards. So if SOE wants to add content that is available only to 90/90s, I say go for it.

Raknid

03-28-2012, 04:02 PM

<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle</blockquote>Can't imagine why I thought they said Play the game, Your way.</blockquote>Are you saying you can't play the game your way, or that the only way to play the game should be your way?You sure can play the game any way you want to.Don't want raid loot>>>Don't raidDon't want to quest>>>Don't questDon't want to TS>>>Don't tradeskillAnd the converse is trueWant raid loot>>>RaidWant quest rewards>>>QuestWant to make TSitems>>>tradeskillWhat you seem to be saying is that they can only add stuff you WANT to the game if it is already coincident with your existing list of "will do"s. That isn't how it works.What you seem to be saying is that they can only add stuff to the game to reward people of higher accomplishments if it is already on your list of "have done" or "will do"s. That isn't how it works.They offer you a buffet. Take what you want from it, but don't complain about not getting something because it is three tables over and that is too far to walk. Eat your way, play your way, it is your choice. No one and noting is barring you from the buffet except your own initiative.

Rijacki

03-28-2012, 04:27 PM

Cloudrat

03-28-2012, 04:59 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle</blockquote>Can't imagine why I thought they said Play the game, Your way.</blockquote>To play the game "my way" I want to solo in the hardest current raid zone on my level 20ish dirge that's a 90 sage. If the game was truly "play my way" I would be able to do so successfully, right, and get every loot item possible, and equip it, of course?"Play Your Way" is going to be one of the most abused catch-phrases, used by anyone who thinks they should be entitled to thus and so just because they exist. It's right up there with "RP preferred" being used to bully RPers, non-RPers, those who don't RP 'the right way', etc., "I pay my $15/mo" being used to demand the game revolve around the speaker's desire, and so on.</blockquote>Until this moment it was always possible to be just an adventurer or just a crafter that was part of the my way concept.No matter how you rationalize why the elite are now getting crafting rewards, this has changed the face of the game and maybe they want to get rid of those who only craft. I think maybe access to the final zones should also require 90 crafting from all the adventurers who wish to continue and become elite.edit:to fix spelling

Rageincarnate

03-28-2012, 05:19 PM

hahahahahahahahahahhahaahah totally not sarcastic.. im honestly laughing...I would say yes , just for the lols.If you fail a combine, raid wipe, if you don't make a pristine, raid wipe, if you don't counter one of the little crafting game in.2 seconds raid wipecrafting tables knock you back, then make you get back to them in 2 seconds. Boss crafting tables spawn more crafting tables and those crafting tables need 3 pristines crafted on them in 5 seconds. Don't forget crafting tables randomly deagro and will attack other crafters.. and you now have to do two sets on crafter mini games at the same time.Oh, wait your crafting table.. its changing colors !!! omg run to another and finish !! ops you fell through the world..thanks.. im loling pretty hard right now. ty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> god .. that would be funny as heck to watch.WILL SOMEONE TAUNT THIS FORGE OFF ME!!!???Can i be the TS DEV?? i promise it wont be boring.

Deveryn

03-28-2012, 05:20 PM

Let's get one thing straight here. "Play your way" is the catchphrase related to the F2P model. It has nothing to do with adventuring or crafting or raiding. Please stop trying to bring it up in these discussions.

Koleg

03-28-2012, 05:22 PM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Until this moment it was always possible to be just an adventurer or just a crafter that was part of the my way concept.No matter how you rationlize why the elite are now getting crafting rewards that has changed the face of the game and maybe they want to get rid of those who only craft. I think maybe access to the final zones should also require 90 crafting from all the adventurers who wish to continue and become elite.</blockquote>That is just being mean spirited becasue there is something available that you did not want to work for and therefore don't want others who have worked for it to suffer along with you.There is nothing wrong with mixing and matching ...I would be fine with making all Crafted armor the best in game gear under the conditions that crafted weapons/armors/food would all me best if they were no-trade, no-commission, no-hierloom and all mats for that gear was droped by boses in Heroic / Raid zones of a specific level. There would never, ever be a need for a level 10 adventuter to ever care about a level 90 recipe ever again, elite or otherwise.

Skeez1e

03-28-2012, 05:44 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>can someone post some facts about this guy?other then you can aqquire him in a level 90 instance? what does he do? what does he research?Time needed for recipies?</blockquote>From the jeweller apprentice:<img src="http://www3.telus.net/public/strident/app1.jpg" /><img src="http://www3.telus.net/public/strident/app2.jpg" />Edit: I can post the other 2 sets of recipes if wanted but these will, at least, give an indication of the stats of the recipes available from the apprentice.

Lempo

03-28-2012, 05:58 PM

Cloudrat

03-28-2012, 06:36 PM

yohann koldheart

03-28-2012, 06:41 PM

i wount be suprised if this is the only way to get this. you have the dev thats been designing our crafting system gone. you now have a new dev thats going to want to put his mark on the game, so we should expect things to change.

denmom

03-28-2012, 07:07 PM

Wait...a JEWELER giving the ELIXIRS??Shouldn't elixirs be ALCHEMIST??Oh, wait, this is an apprentice...but I thought they were to give recipes to the crafter class you were?

gourdon

03-28-2012, 07:18 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Until this moment it was always possible to be just an adventurer or just a crafter that was part of the my way concept.No matter how you rationlize why the elite are now getting crafting rewards that has changed the face of the game and maybe they want to get rid of those who only craft. I think maybe access to the final zones should also require 90 crafting from all the adventurers who wish to continue and become elite.</blockquote>I don't think I am elite. I just think that there is nothing wrong with someone that is a 90/90 being able to get something that an X/90 or a 90/x can't get, it is a reward and EVERYONE is eligible to get it, if they want it.</blockquote>I agree that it isn't unreasonable for there to be a reward for being 90/90. The problem is that there the rewards for being a gonzo tradeskiller don't exist. There are plenty of rewards for being a gonzo adventurer, high end heroic and raid gear, cool mounts, house decorations and prestige houses. What exactly do tradeskillers that have done Solstice, Shawl, all four instances, max faction with Far Seas Supply as well as all of the other factions, pack pony as well as 450/450 in the secondaries get? Not a whole lot that is meaningful at cap.Not giving the dedicated tradeskillers something meaningful this GU is the problem. The lions share of tradeskill recipes should go to them and they should be meaningful. Then we can talk about what the Tradeskill/Adventurers deserve.

Leawyn

03-28-2012, 08:05 PM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one is saying that there shouldnt be some special reward for being both, I have been saying it for years trying to get adventurers to craft too , but a purely crafting one is the wrong one.</blockquote>Why do you consider it a purely TS based thing? Its an apprentice, it gives you recipes (TS) to make really really nice gear (Adventure). I think its a pretty darn good reward that will benefit both the crafting and adventure side!<cite>gourdon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that it isn't unreasonable for there to be a reward for being 90/90. The problem is that there the rewards for being a gonzo tradeskiller don't exist. There are plenty of rewards for being a gonzo adventurer, high end heroic and raid gear, cool mounts, house decorations and prestige houses. What exactly do tradeskillers that have done Solstice, Shawl, all four instances, max faction with Far Seas Supply as well as all of the other factions, pack pony as well as 450/450 in the secondaries get? Not a whole lot that is meaningful at cap.</blockquote>Wait.... the Earring, Shawl, pack unicorn, harvesting cloak and pack pony aren't the rewards? Silly me.

denmom

03-28-2012, 08:31 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wait...a JEWELER giving the ELIXIRS??Shouldn't elixirs be ALCHEMIST??Oh, wait, this is an apprentice...but I thought they were to give recipes to the crafter class you were?</blockquote>Ahah, never mind...I just read the other thread and it's the recipes for your class not subclass. /rolls eyes at self

Tigerr

03-28-2012, 08:43 PM

In regards to the "gonzo" tradeskiller... So there should be a bigger reward other than the current fluff that should probably be one of the "best" items in the game, for how hard you hit 2 3 and 6?.. lolwat

ratbast

03-28-2012, 09:01 PM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle</blockquote>Can't imagine why I thought they said Play the game, Your way.</blockquote>To play the game "my way" I want to solo in the hardest current raid zone on my level 20ish dirge that's a 90 sage. If the game was truly "play my way" I would be able to do so successfully, right, and get every loot item possible, and equip it, of course?"Play Your Way" is going to be one of the most abused catch-phrases, used by anyone who thinks they should be entitled to thus and so just because they exist. It's right up there with "RP preferred" being used to bully RPers, non-RPers, those who don't RP 'the right way', etc., "I pay my $15/mo" being used to demand the game revolve around the speaker's desire, and so on.</blockquote>Until this moment it was always possible to be just an adventurer or just a crafter that was part of the my way concept.No matter how you rationalize why the elite are now getting crafting rewards, this has changed the face of the game and maybe they want to get rid of those who only craft. I think maybe access to the final zones should also require 90 crafting from all the adventurers who wish to continue and become elite.edit:to fix spelling</blockquote>imo this is a tiny obstacle (if you are already 90 crafter), especially with level cap going to 92 for powerlevelERS.92's powerleveling crafters could be a mutually beneficial activity, and it is definitely going to be fast.what would make this req a real challenge would be to require 92/92 to get recipes cuz that would include 280aa as well.i think the game is about to get a huge influx of 90/75AA adv who dont give a dam about how to play their adv class lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />next step will be to make mentoring system more robust for bored crafters with 90/75, cuz they sure as hell wont be able to do content at their level. would make norrath a much different place with 90/75 crafter minded ppl running around mentoring helping ppl with odd quests and dungeons. thats just the way they are.leveling to 90 adv is not that hard, its the AA that is hard.the purist crafter side of me hates 90adv req, but the OCDC completionist side of me is glad to see a significant milestone recognized and rewarded.now how about a cool reward for 92/92/280 myth/ER, tofsx2 debuff, prayer shawl, ts weapon, pack pony, solstice earring req?

yohann koldheart

03-28-2012, 09:06 PM

Mermut

03-28-2012, 09:10 PM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>imo this is a tiny obstacle (if you are already 90 crafter), especially with level cap going to 92 for powerlevelERS.92's powerleveling crafters could be a mutually beneficial activity, and it is definitely going to be fast.what would make this req a real challenge would be to require 92/92 to get recipes cuz that would include 280aa as well.i think the game is about to get a huge influx of 90/75AA adv who dont give a dam about how to play their adv class lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />next step will be to make mentoring system more robust for bored crafters with 90/75, cuz they sure as hell wont be able to do content at their level. would make norrath a much different place with 90/75 crafter minded ppl running around mentoring helping ppl with odd quests and dungeons. thats just the way they are.leveling to 90 adv is not that hard, its the AA that is hard.the purist crafter side of me hates 90adv req, but the OCDC completionist side of me is glad to see a significant milestone recognized and rewarded.now how about a cool reward for 92/92/280 myth/ER, tofsx2 debuff, prayer shawl, ts weapon, pack pony, solstice earring req?</blockquote>The issue isn't whether or not it is hard to get powerleveled to 90 adventure (or powerlevel yourself to 90 tradeskiller for that matter). Some people don't like being powerleveled. Some people hate tradeskilling. High level tradeskill rewards shouldn't force people to be high level adventurers. High level adventure rewards shouldn't require people to be high level crafters. But if you have one, balance and fairness says you should have the other.

Leawyn

03-28-2012, 09:22 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>imo this is a tiny obstacle (if you are already 90 crafter), especially with level cap going to 92 for powerlevelERS.92's powerleveling crafters could be a mutually beneficial activity, and it is definitely going to be fast.what would make this req a real challenge would be to require 92/92 to get recipes cuz that would include 280aa as well.i think the game is about to get a huge influx of 90/75AA adv who dont give a dam about how to play their adv class lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />next step will be to make mentoring system more robust for bored crafters with 90/75, cuz they sure as hell wont be able to do content at their level. would make norrath a much different place with 90/75 crafter minded ppl running around mentoring helping ppl with odd quests and dungeons. thats just the way they are.leveling to 90 adv is not that hard, its the AA that is hard.the purist crafter side of me hates 90adv req, but the OCDC completionist side of me is glad to see a significant milestone recognized and rewarded.now how about a cool reward for 92/92/280 myth/ER, tofsx2 debuff, prayer shawl, ts weapon, pack pony, solstice earring req?</blockquote>The issue isn't whether or not it is hard to get powerleveled to 90 adventure (or powerlevel yourself to 90 tradeskiller for that matter). Some people don't like being powerleveled. Some people hate tradeskilling. High level tradeskill rewards shouldn't force people to be high level adventurers. High level adventure rewards shouldn't require people to be high level crafters. But if you have one, balance and fairness says you should have the other.</blockquote>Why is this only seen as a high level TS reward? It is a reward for being both, at this time, as things stand.

Lempo

03-28-2012, 09:28 PM

<cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>leveling to 90 adv is not that hard, its the AA that is hard.Neither is leveling to 90 crafting, in fact it is far more trivial ESPECIALLY since the move away from WORTs, which of course then it was little challenge either. now how about a cool reward for 92/92/280 myth/ER, tofsx2 debuff, prayer shawl, ts weapon, pack pony, solstice earring req?Bring it! My main is already there, except for the levels which will for adventuring be a matter of hours after the expansion goes live, and for Tradeskilling will not be required because (this is a joke in itself) level 90 crafters are going to be able to scribe and make level 91 AND 92 recipes, lol. </blockquote>

Lempo

03-28-2012, 09:31 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is this only seen as a high level TS reward? It is a reward for being both, at this time, as things stand.</blockquote>The mind boggling part of this is the ones that do not see it this way it is like animals that eat their young.A few of the ones that are against it in another thread have actually stated things like "Let the Adventurers pay through the nose for once", at least they make their position clear.

Tylia

03-28-2012, 09:40 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratbast wrote:</cite><blockquote>imo this is a tiny obstacle (if you are already 90 crafter), especially with level cap going to 92 for powerlevelERS.92's powerleveling crafters could be a mutually beneficial activity, and it is definitely going to be fast.what would make this req a real challenge would be to require 92/92 to get recipes cuz that would include 280aa as well.i think the game is about to get a huge influx of 90/75AA adv who dont give a dam about how to play their adv class lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />next step will be to make mentoring system more robust for bored crafters with 90/75, cuz they sure as hell wont be able to do content at their level. would make norrath a much different place with 90/75 crafter minded ppl running around mentoring helping ppl with odd quests and dungeons. thats just the way they are.leveling to 90 adv is not that hard, its the AA that is hard.the purist crafter side of me hates 90adv req, but the OCDC completionist side of me is glad to see a significant milestone recognized and rewarded.now how about a cool reward for 92/92/280 myth/ER, tofsx2 debuff, prayer shawl, ts weapon, pack pony, solstice earring req?</blockquote>The issue isn't whether or not it is hard to get powerleveled to 90 adventure (or powerlevel yourself to 90 tradeskiller for that matter). Some people don't like being powerleveled. Some people hate tradeskilling. High level tradeskill rewards shouldn't force people to be high level adventurers. High level adventure rewards shouldn't require people to be high level crafters. But if you have one, balance and fairness says you should have the other.</blockquote>Why is this only seen as a high level TS reward? It is a reward for being both, at this time, as things stand.</blockquote>Exactly Maewyn. It's a reward for those who are wearing both shoes, not just one or the other. This is not "just" a high level tradeskill reward. It is "also" a high level adventure reward. It is not one or the other. It is both shoes, a pair. Mermut, you have just as much of an opportunity to obtain the pair as any other player in the game, IF you are willing to put forth the time and effort to do so. Someone who is a high level adventurer but NOT a high level crafter cannot obtain the apprentice. Someone who is a high level crafter but NOT a high level adventurer cannot obtain the apprentice. It's NOT complicated, and it's not biased. It is a pairing up of two seperate playstyles that is AVAILABLE to anyone. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mermut

03-28-2012, 09:50 PM

<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is this only seen as a high level TS reward? It is a reward for being both, at this time, as things stand.</blockquote>Because the apprentice gives tradeskill recipes.Would you call an peice of instance or raid gear a 'tradeskill reward' if the zone required level 90 tradeskill level to enter even if the gear did nothing at all to improve tradeskilling?The requirements to get to the zone that contains the reward does not determine what the benefit of the reward is.Also if it is supposed to be a benefit for having 90/90, why should toons who don't have 90/90 be able to use the items made by the recipes? That would give the 'adventure side' of the 90/90 toon an advantage over the 90 adventurers that don't have 90 tradeskill level. As I've mentioned before, the 90/90 has no adventure benifit over a 90/0 that knows a 90/90 with the recipes.

Leawyn

03-28-2012, 09:53 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is this only seen as a high level TS reward? It is a reward for being both, at this time, as things stand.</blockquote>Because the apprentice gives tradeskill recipes.Would you call an peice of instance or raid gear a 'tradeskill reward' if the zone required level 90 tradeskill level to enter even if the gear did nothing at all to improve tradeskilling?</blockquote>But it does!!! It gives me recipes (TS reward) that makes really cool stuff I can use in adventuring. Its genius!

Raknid

03-28-2012, 09:54 PM

<cite>Cloudrat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not something that EXCLUDES anyone unless they choose to only focus on one playstyle</blockquote>Can't imagine why I thought they said Play the game, Your way.</blockquote>To play the game "my way" I want to solo in the hardest current raid zone on my level 20ish dirge that's a 90 sage. If the game was truly "play my way" I would be able to do so successfully, right, and get every loot item possible, and equip it, of course?"Play Your Way" is going to be one of the most abused catch-phrases, used by anyone who thinks they should be entitled to thus and so just because they exist. It's right up there with "RP preferred" being used to bully RPers, non-RPers, those who don't RP 'the right way', etc., "I pay my $15/mo" being used to demand the game revolve around the speaker's desire, and so on.</blockquote>Until this moment it was always possible to be just an adventurer or just a crafter that was part of the my way concept.No matter how you rationalize why the elite are now getting crafting rewards, this has changed the face of the game and maybe they want to get rid of those who only craft. I think maybe access to the final zones should also require 90 crafting from all the adventurers who wish to continue and become elite.edit:to fix spelling</blockquote>At release of the game you had a requirement for a GUILD to be a certain level in order to get a recipe. In KoS there were recipes that only someone who was high enough adventure level could get. So it is not like there isn't precedent for tying recipe availability to things other the the TSers level.This is the first attempt at allowing rewards that can help set people apart. I certainly hope more are to come. Maybe you will like them, maybe you won't, but "because it's always been that way" is not an adequate reason to shelve something like this that has real potential. Nor is because you haven't yet met the requirements or don't want to meet the requirements.

Mermut

03-28-2012, 10:08 PM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>At release of the game you had a requirement for a GUILD to be a certain level in order to get a recipe. In KoS there were recipes that only someone who was high enough adventure level could get. So it is not like there isn't precedent for tying recipe availability to things other the the TSers level.This is the first attempt at allowing rewards that can help set people apart. I certainly hope more are to come. Maybe you will like them, maybe you won't, but "because it's always been that way" is not an adequate reason to shelve something like this that has real potential. Nor is because you haven't yet met the requirements or don't want to meet the requirements.</blockquote>The KoS rewards were always doable by crafters. It required a series of quests and alot of grinding, but it was doable.Also, I'm guessing adventurers would be even more upset if they were required to do a bunch of tradeskilling to get an adventure reward. But the 90/0s don't lose anything by having this restriction. It makes absolutely no difference to them if it's 90/90 or 1/90 to get the recipes. They have the same access to the goods. Why should that be?<cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is this only seen as a high level TS reward? It is a reward for being both, at this time, as things stand.</blockquote>Because the apprentice gives tradeskill recipes.Would you call an peice of instance or raid gear a 'tradeskill reward' if the zone required level 90 tradeskill level to enter even if the gear did nothing at all to improve tradeskilling?</blockquote>But it does!!! It gives me recipes (TS reward) that makes really cool stuff I can use in adventuring. Its genius!</blockquote>Then why not make the items useable ONLY by 90/90s? That would be a benifit to having both. As I've said, repeatedly, a 90/0 gets EXACTLY the same adventure benefit from it as a 90/90 does. Why should you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe but not 90/90 to use the item?Why is it so important to have 90 adventurer to get the recipe itself?

Raknid

03-28-2012, 10:11 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>At release of the game you had a requirement for a GUILD to be a certain level in order to get a recipe. In KoS there were recipes that only someone who was high enough adventure level could get. So it is not like there isn't precedent for tying recipe availability to things other the the TSers level.This is the first attempt at allowing rewards that can help set people apart. I certainly hope more are to come. Maybe you will like them, maybe you won't, but "because it's always been that way" is not an adequate reason to shelve something like this that has real potential. Nor is because you haven't yet met the requirements or don't want to meet the requirements.</blockquote>The KoS rewards were always doable by crafters. It required a series of quests and alot of grinding, but it was doable.</blockquote>Nope. Not the recipes I am talking about.

baguetteovenfresh

03-28-2012, 10:39 PM

I feel this will be fair just as soon as I can get access to instances that require me to be a lvl 90 tradeskiller and drop epic quality adventurer gear.Both shoes, and all.

Hordolin Awanagin

03-28-2012, 10:45 PM

I was going to post a big long rant but decided not to. Instead I'll post this:Change is good. Everyone resists change simply because it is different. Try something different once is a while.

Rijacki

03-28-2012, 11:48 PM

Mermut

03-28-2012, 11:55 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>At release of the game you had a requirement for a GUILD to be a certain level in order to get a recipe. In KoS there were recipes that only someone who was high enough adventure level could get. So it is not like there isn't precedent for tying recipe availability to things other the the TSers level.This is the first attempt at allowing rewards that can help set people apart. I certainly hope more are to come. Maybe you will like them, maybe you won't, but "because it's always been that way" is not an adequate reason to shelve something like this that has real potential. Nor is because you haven't yet met the requirements or don't want to meet the requirements.</blockquote>The KoS rewards were always doable by crafters. It required a series of quests and alot of grinding, but it was doable.</blockquote>It has -never- been possible to get the Nest recipes without being an adventurer (level 60ish). Unless I am mistaken, the recipes are -still- No Trade (and always have been). At one time, those were amoung the best items in the game.</blockquote>I was thinking of a different set. You're right for these recipes. Sorry for my mistake.

Leawyn

03-29-2012, 12:07 AM

<cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>I feel this will be fair just as soon as I can get access to instances that require me to be a lvl 90 tradeskiller and drop epic quality adventurer gear.Both shoes, and all.</blockquote>That's apples to oranges. If you want to require TS to perform a solo or even heroic adventure zone, sure, go for it. But you're asking for raid quality reward for solo effort. Even the colossal gear, while close to DOV-Lauch EM gear, its no where near the quality of current "epic" raid gear.

Axelia

03-29-2012, 01:25 AM

<div>I think if SOE goes this route then maybe they should remove heirloom from raid gear, make raid instances so only those present can loot and make the gear no trade.</div><div></div><div>This kind of segregates the player base a bit more but... well you get the picture.</div>

Lenanu

03-29-2012, 01:57 AM

For those of you who arn't part of the homeshow channel when I posted my recent discovery I'll mention it here. The GU has THREE new apprentices, but only ONE has been discovered so far according to Gninjadev while on Test Copy. This means there are 2 other apprentices out there we've yet to find out how to get. For all we know, they may not require high level adventuring to get the other two.

Leawyn

03-29-2012, 02:08 AM

Heh... I'll withhold my "I told you so" until the other two are found. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Tylia

03-29-2012, 06:24 AM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I think if SOE goes this route then maybe they should remove heirloom from raid gear, make raid instances so only those present can loot and make the gear no trade.</div><div>This kind of segregates the player base a bit more but... well you get the picture.</div></blockquote>Care to give your reasoning for your above suggestions and what they have to do with the topic of this thread?And as far as the topic segregating the player base.. no, it doesn't. Every single player has the ability available to them to level their character to 90/90 (as long as they have SF and above). Every one has that option and if they choose not to follow that path, then they are choosing to forfeit their ability to obtain that elite apprentice. It's plain and simple. No one is being outright denied. It's a matter of choice.And surprise, there are apparently 2 more apprentices to be found. So all the hubbub may be for naught anyway.edited for spelling.

Whilhelmina

03-29-2012, 07:16 AM

This thread was opened to give feedback: is it fine or not in your opinion to get an apprentice in a level 90 adventure only zone. No need to turn this into endless bickering aka "my way is better than yours".There's still a question to ask...WHERE IS OMOUGI ?Why is Gninja giving us infos while Omougi is the dev in charge and hasn't even bothered to give some basic infos on the topic or even write some patch notes?

Raknid

03-29-2012, 11:38 AM

<cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those of you who arn't part of the homeshow channel when I posted my recent discovery I'll mention it here. The GU has THREE new apprentices, but only ONE has been discovered so far according to Gninjadev while on Test Copy. This means there are 2 other apprentices out there we've yet to find out how to get. For all we know, they may not require high level adventuring to get the other two.</blockquote><blockquote><h3>Age of Discovery Additions:**</h3><ul><li>Tradeskill apprentices with new recipes (one Elite!)</li></ul></blockquote>

Lenanu

03-29-2012, 01:03 PM

I have yet to see Omougi while on test, I have seen Gninjadev and Lyndro so far and they tend to know some of what the others are up to.

Deveryn

03-29-2012, 01:08 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>And surprise, there are apparently 2 more apprentices to be found. So all the hubbub may be for naught anyway.</blockquote>That's usually the case with these folks. See: building blocks.

Yimway

03-29-2012, 01:17 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hahahahahahahahahahhahaahah totally not sarcastic.. im honestly laughing...I would say yes , just for the lols.If you fail a combine, raid wipe, if you don't make a pristine, raid wipe, if you don't counter one of the little crafting game in.2 seconds raid wipecrafting tables knock you back, then make you get back to them in 2 seconds. Boss crafting tables spawn more crafting tables and those crafting tables need 3 pristines crafted on them in 5 seconds. Don't forget crafting tables randomly deagro and will attack other crafters.. and you now have to do two sets on crafter mini games at the same time.Oh, wait your crafting table.. its changing colors !!! omg run to another and finish !! ops you fell through the world..thanks.. im loling pretty hard right now. ty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> god .. that would be funny as heck to watch.WILL SOMEONE TAUNT THIS FORGE OFF ME!!!???Can i be the TS DEV?? i promise it wont be boring.</blockquote>LOLThanks for the laugh Rage.Maybe we could get the knockback to also land a stiffle/stun that requires a curse cure within 3 seconds or it locks down the entire zones for a minute.

Necrotherian

03-29-2012, 02:43 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hahahahahahahahahahhahaahah totally not sarcastic.. im honestly laughing...I would say yes , just for the lols.If you fail a combine, raid wipe, if you don't make a pristine, raid wipe, if you don't counter one of the little crafting game in.2 seconds raid wipecrafting tables knock you back, then make you get back to them in 2 seconds. Boss crafting tables spawn more crafting tables and those crafting tables need 3 pristines crafted on them in 5 seconds. Don't forget crafting tables randomly deagro and will attack other crafters.. and you now have to do two sets on crafter mini games at the same time.Oh, wait your crafting table.. its changing colors !!! omg run to another and finish !! ops you fell through the world..thanks.. im loling pretty hard right now. ty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> god .. that would be funny as heck to watch.WILL SOMEONE TAUNT THIS FORGE OFF ME!!!???Can i be the TS DEV?? i promise it wont be boring.</blockquote>LOLThanks for the laugh Rage.Maybe we could get the knockback to also land a stiffle/stun that requires a curse cure within 3 seconds or it locks down the entire zones for a minute.</blockquote>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.

Yimway

03-29-2012, 02:53 PM

<cite>Rotherian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.</blockquote>Honestly, I suggested something like this, and other cooperative tradeskilling opportunities to Domino several years ago. There wasn't any interest in cooperative stuff when she was at the reigns. I don't think we'll see it now as well, thats stuff that requires new things to be coded rather than re-using the same templates they have. And there are almost no 'coders' left.

Rageincarnate

03-29-2012, 03:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hahahahahahahahahahhahaahah totally not sarcastic.. im honestly laughing...I would say yes , just for the lols.If you fail a combine, raid wipe, if you don't make a pristine, raid wipe, if you don't counter one of the little crafting game in.2 seconds raid wipecrafting tables knock you back, then make you get back to them in 2 seconds. Boss crafting tables spawn more crafting tables and those crafting tables need 3 pristines crafted on them in 5 seconds. Don't forget crafting tables randomly deagro and will attack other crafters.. and you now have to do two sets on crafter mini games at the same time.Oh, wait your crafting table.. its changing colors !!! omg run to another and finish !! ops you fell through the world..thanks.. im loling pretty hard right now. ty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> god .. that would be funny as heck to watch.WILL SOMEONE TAUNT THIS FORGE OFF ME!!!???Can i be the TS DEV?? i promise it wont be boring.</blockquote>LOLThanks for the laugh Rage.Maybe we could get the knockback to also land a stiffle/stun that requires a curse cure within 3 seconds or it locks down the entire zones for a minute.</blockquote>I saved the best for last, the new HM crafting raids? the tables have an effect they put on you that makes it so you can't gain progress or durability. You just kinda have to stand there while your crafting table laughs at you. The challenge is attention span. Anddd you need +700 to geomancy. But nothing but a rare mob drops that.

Lempo

03-29-2012, 03:33 PM

<cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those of you who arn't part of the homeshow channel when I posted my recent discovery I'll mention it here. The GU has THREE new apprentices, but only ONE has been discovered so far according to Gninjadev while on Test Copy. This means there are 2 other apprentices out there we've yet to find out how to get. For all we know, they may not require high level adventuring to get the other two.</blockquote>Even if all of them require high level adventurers it is just fine, the last 'expansions' focus was on tradeskills more than anything.

Lempo

03-29-2012, 03:36 PM

<cite>Rotherian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.</blockquote>If they can go to sleep and it not have the potential to cause a wipe what is the point.10% HP and 3/4 of a bar of durability? not exactly very punishing.

Axelia

03-29-2012, 06:54 PM

<cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I think if SOE goes this route then maybe they should remove heirloom from raid gear, make raid instances so only those present can loot and make the gear no trade.</div><div>This kind of segregates the player base a bit more but... well you get the picture.</div></blockquote>Care to give your reasoning for your above suggestions and what they have to do with the topic of this thread?And as far as the topic segregating the player base.. no, it doesn't. Every single player has the ability available to them to level their character to 90/90 (as long as they have SF and above). Every one has that option and if they choose not to follow that path, then they are choosing to forfeit their ability to obtain that elite apprentice. It's plain and simple. No one is being outright denied. It's a matter of choice.And surprise, there are apparently 2 more apprentices to be found. So all the hubbub may be for naught anyway.edited for spelling.</blockquote><div>Because – It is all about balance of the game play.</div><div>Only certain guilds are able to get high powered items because they raid. Only certain crafters, ones that are level 90+ adventuring, will be able to obtain these recipes throws the balance off.</div><div>Since...</div><div>There is no level restrictions on raid zones therefore ANYONE can get raid loot. They just have to buy it. Even a level one can buy the best items in the game as long as they have the plat. As an example, go to Wal-Mart buy a station cash card for 15 bucks and sell it to someone in the game for 300 to 500 plat. Rinse and repeat all perfectly legal until you have amassed enough to out bid everyone in auction. Then you can simply pay someone else to power level you to the cap and never once have to actually invest time into the game although money equals time now.</div><div>Those that worked to get the crafting to the end game level had to actually work since there is no means to PL a crafter. The crafter is restricted to one instance a day and some measly once a day quests that take a major time sink to do.</div><div>Crafting is by far more complex and demanding than riding on the shirt tails of others yet the developers are now forcing the ones that craft to level the adventuring in order to compete against those that can buy their way to the end game.</div><div>From the description of the hammer I saw while on test the other night. The hammer is by far superior to any crafted or raided item so it means that crafters who sell will have to grind to 90 adventuring to be competitive. The items will be in very high demand BUT..</div><div>It does not effect me since I am leveling and crafting all 9 trade skills. It dose effect others though because I will not by any means craft a non-crafter any endgame item without a ridiculous price tag since the developers are forcing the crafters to work harder.</div>

Chronus1

03-29-2012, 07:19 PM

None of the gear bar the druid and cleric gloves and maybe the brawler and warrior helms will be widely used by raiders, they can get far superior easily, the hammer you refer to is ok but hasn't got anything on the hardmode drunder trash (and yes almost any raid guild can farm trash these days) 2h hammer.Mage shoulders I could see being very popular for guilds that can't even kill hm kolsekegger and possibly for very kind chanters that don't feel they need the 2% double cast from the yellow slot but losing that yellow shoulders adorn is just too big a blow.It won't be a huge thing imo.And also yeh crafters can't get pled but they can join any casual guild and level to 90 in a day after getting to 15 from quests then doing rush orders while pressing somthing along the line of 10 buttons.

Necrotherian

03-29-2012, 07:25 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rotherian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.</blockquote>If they can go to sleep and it not have the potential to cause a wipe what is the point.10% HP and 3/4 of a bar of durability? not exactly very punishing.</blockquote>Well, it could also have a 5%-10% cumulative chance (random, but weighted toward the high end) to cause a wipe on that item, which then causes a debuff (2 min duration) which cuts the benefits of any reactive by half and doubles the detriments (think of it as a TS version of revived sickness). That would add a higher chance of risk, both because the total wipe chance increases with each missed reactive, and because each missed one would decrease the probability of completing it. Heck, enough missed ones could cause a wipe even without the cumulative chance.That would give a decent degree of 'punishment', and be more difficult than the TS version of tank 'n spank.Plus, it would be more consistent than the current TS version of the Gigglegibber Goblin. (I'm talking about you, tradeskill apprentice.)

Whilhelmina

03-29-2012, 07:39 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even if all of them require high level adventurers it is just fine, the last 'expansions' focus was on tradeskills more than anything.</blockquote>Glad to learn about that, I never realised it...

Tylia

03-29-2012, 07:46 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tylia@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I think if SOE goes this route then maybe they should remove heirloom from raid gear, make raid instances so only those present can loot and make the gear no trade.</div><div>This kind of segregates the player base a bit more but... well you get the picture.</div></blockquote>Care to give your reasoning for your above suggestions and what they have to do with the topic of this thread?And as far as the topic segregating the player base.. no, it doesn't. Every single player has the ability available to them to level their character to 90/90 (as long as they have SF and above). Every one has that option and if they choose not to follow that path, then they are choosing to forfeit their ability to obtain that elite apprentice. It's plain and simple. No one is being outright denied. It's a matter of choice.And surprise, there are apparently 2 more apprentices to be found. So all the hubbub may be for naught anyway.edited for spelling.</blockquote><div>Because – It is all about balance of the game play.</div><div>Only certain guilds are able to get high powered items because they raid. Only certain crafters, ones that are level 90+ adventuring, will be able to obtain these recipes throws the balance off.</div><div>Since...</div><div>There is no level restrictions on raid zones therefore ANYONE can get raid loot. They just have to buy it. Even a level one can buy the best items in the game as long as they have the plat. As an example, go to Wal-Mart buy a station cash card for 15 bucks and sell it to someone in the game for 300 to 500 plat. Rinse and repeat all perfectly legal until you have amassed enough to out bid everyone in auction. Then you can simply pay someone else to power level you to the cap and never once have to actually invest time into the game although money equals time now.</div><div>Those that worked to get the crafting to the end game level had to actually work since there is no means to PL a crafter. The crafter is restricted to one instance a day and some measly once a day quests that take a major time sink to do.</div><div>Crafting is by far more complex and demanding than riding on the shirt tails of others yet the developers are now forcing the ones that craft to level the adventuring in order to compete against those that can buy their way to the end game.</div><div>From the description of the hammer I saw while on test the other night. The hammer is by far superior to any crafted or raided item so it means that crafters who sell will have to grind to 90 adventuring to be competitive. The items will be in very high demand BUT..</div><div>It does not effect me since I am leveling and crafting all 9 trade skills. It dose effect others though because I will not by any means craft a non-crafter any endgame item without a ridiculous price tag since the developers are forcing the crafters to work harder.</div></blockquote>First of all, ANYONE has the opportunity available to them to raid. There is not some restriction at the door that only allows certain guilds. Also, you have to be certain levels to even zone in to raid zones, depending on the zone. I can't believe the amount of bitter "sour grapes" there is on these forums from people over slr items. Especially the over dramatizing on how "most" or "everyone" buys their plat or sells their plat, blah blah blah. Most of those types of posts seem to come from people who are upset because someone always outbids them in auction, so therefore they put on their drama-queen crown and haughtily proclaim that "everyone" who buys that stuff HAS to be buying their plat and "everyone" who sells that stuff HAS to be selling their plat. It's getting old people. Can we have some new dramatizations here?Secondly.. no, crafters can't be "powerleveled" in the way that adventurers can. They CAN however, be bot and afk leveled. I don't take part in that activity myself, but I have seen it done. Crafters are not restricted in their leveling either. Rush-order writs are a very fast way to level crafting, and doesn't take any more thinking than hitting several buttons over and over (yeah, some adventurers play that way too but that's beside the point). Last night I took a level 65 sage up to level 86 in just a matter of a couple hours using an xp-potion, a few potions of progress, and rush-order writs. I spent time chatting in guild chat, going afk a few times for life's necessities, and not really trying very hard. Wow. Talk about complex!!edited for spelling, and to add.. I have 5 level 90 crafters. All 5 of them are level 90 adventurers. I also have another level 90 adventurer who is a level 65 crafter. My sage mentioned above will be a lvl 90 crafter later tonight, though she is only a level 55 adventurer. Believe me, leveling crafting is NOT difficult or complex.

Katz

03-29-2012, 08:04 PM

<cite>Rotherian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hahahahahahahahahahhahaahah totally not sarcastic.. im honestly laughing...I would say yes , just for the lols.If you fail a combine, raid wipe, if you don't make a pristine, raid wipe, if you don't counter one of the little crafting game in.2 seconds raid wipecrafting tables knock you back, then make you get back to them in 2 seconds. Boss crafting tables spawn more crafting tables and those crafting tables need 3 pristines crafted on them in 5 seconds. Don't forget crafting tables randomly deagro and will attack other crafters.. and you now have to do two sets on crafter mini games at the same time.Oh, wait your crafting table.. its changing colors !!! omg run to another and finish !! ops you fell through the world..thanks.. im loling pretty hard right now. ty <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> god .. that would be funny as heck to watch.WILL SOMEONE TAUNT THIS FORGE OFF ME!!!???Can i be the TS DEV?? i promise it wont be boring.</blockquote>LOLThanks for the laugh Rage.Maybe we could get the knockback to also land a stiffle/stun that requires a curse cure within 3 seconds or it locks down the entire zones for a minute.</blockquote>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.</blockquote>Too funny. That actually sounds fun. The most fun tradeskill quest for me in SF was when the crafting table killed me because I didn't counter the "uncontrolable explosion" or some such event.

Aunry

03-29-2012, 08:25 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because – It is all about balance of the game play.<div>Only certain guilds are able to get high powered items because they raid. Only certain crafters, ones that are level 90+ adventuring, will be able to obtain these recipes throws the balance off.</div><div>Since...</div><div>There is no level restrictions on raid zones therefore ANYONE can get raid loot. They just have to buy it. Even a level one can buy the best items in the game as long as they have the plat. As an example, go to Wal-Mart buy a station cash card for 15 bucks and sell it to someone in the game for 300 to 500 plat. Rinse and repeat all perfectly legal until you have amassed enough to out bid everyone in auction. Then you can simply pay someone else to power level you to the cap and never once have to actually invest time into the game although money equals time now.</div><div>Those that worked to get the crafting to the end game level had to actually work since there is no means to PL a crafter. The crafter is restricted to one instance a day and some measly once a day quests that take a major time sink to do.</div><div>Crafting is by far more complex and demanding than riding on the shirt tails of others yet the developers are now forcing the ones that craft to level the adventuring in order to compete against those that can buy their way to the end game.</div><div>From the description of the hammer I saw while on test the other night. The hammer is by far superior to any crafted or raided item so it means that crafters who sell will have to grind to 90 adventuring to be competitive. The items will be in very high demand BUT..</div><div>It does not effect me since I am leveling and crafting all 9 trade skills. It dose effect others though because I will not by any means craft a non-crafter any endgame item without a ridiculous price tag since the developers are forcing the crafters to work harder.</div></blockquote>ROTFLMAO!!!! Thanks I needed a good laugh. If there was any actual facts in any of that, I would of taken it more seriously. But the facts remain, you are living in your own little world.I have a lvl 90 armor. I don't like crafting that much, but I do tend to stray some times and do others thing other than adventuring. I recently to raise a jeweler which is at lvl 64 atm and really hadn't spent much time raising my lvls on it. Think the first day I got him to lvl 40 something and just been messing with him there and here when I felt like it. If I really wanted to, I could have him lvl 90 by tomorrow if I REALLY wanted to. Point is, don't make crafting over complicated than what it is.Also, I tried to zone my lvl 28 Necro into Kraytoc's Fortress raid zone. It said " You must be at least levle 90 to enter". If you are going to give facts, at least and check them to make sure they are true.

Mermut

03-29-2012, 09:38 PM

I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.

Deveryn

03-29-2012, 09:52 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.

Mermut

03-29-2012, 10:07 PM

<cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote>No different then saying that in order to learn how to write a spell scroll or make a sword you need to be an extremely accomplished adventurer. That's my point, actually.

SOE-MOD-16

03-29-2012, 10:07 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=514444&post_id=5739417" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=51444...post_id=5739417</a> Trolling

Mermut

03-29-2012, 10:20 PM

<cite></cite><blockquote><cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote></blockquote>I do both. I've got 5 90/90 toons. This doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. And, as I posted justa above this post, it's as silly to require somebody to be an accomplished adventurer to make a peice of armor as it is to require somebody to be able to make a bench to be able to equip the armor.

Raknid

03-29-2012, 10:23 PM

This isn't like they are substituting adventuring for the requirement of tradeskillint; that would make not make sense. This is just saying that in addition to tradeskilling.Like the best person to know how to make a sword is someone who has used one in battle and has a mastery of the strengths and weakness of the implementation of the sword AS WELL AS has the mastery of the artistry of making one.A pure adventurer might have great knowledge on how to use a sword and what chacracteristics are important. They might be able to pick up a book and read how to make a sword, and even manage to produce one, but without the crafting skillto know how to make the sword hard it would likely be woefully short.A pure crafter might have great knowledge on how to bend and fold steel, how to quench it and temper it. They might even be able to pick up a book and look at a picture of a new weapon and try to fashion one, but without the adventuring skill to know how to balance the sword it would likely be woefully short.Now someone who knows how to wield a sword, as well as how to craft one? They could make a superb sword for anyone to use.

Deveryn

03-29-2012, 10:52 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote></blockquote>I do both. I've got 5 90/90 toons. This doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. And, as I posted justa above this post, it's as silly to require somebody to be an accomplished adventurer to make a peice of armor as it is to require somebody to be able to make a bench to be able to equip the armor.</blockquote>The thing is you don't have to be an accomplished adventurer to make these items. You have to be an accomplished adventurer for that particular apprentice to teach you how to make them. There's a huge difference between that and what you're saying.EQ2 is an adventuring game first and foremost. You can choose to do only tradeskilling, but there are risks and limitations of choosing that path. This is just another.

Enica

03-29-2012, 11:30 PM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>This isn't like they are substituting adventuring for the requirement of tradeskillint; that would make not make sense. This is just saying that in addition to tradeskilling.Like the best person to know how to make a sword is someone who has used one in battle and has a mastery of the strengths and weakness of the implementation of the sword AS WELL AS has the mastery of the artistry of making one.A pure adventurer might have great knowledge on how to use a sword and what chacracteristics are important. They might be able to pick up a book and read how to make a sword, and even manage to produce one, but without the crafting skillto know how to make the sword hard it would likely be woefully short.A pure crafter might have great knowledge on how to bend and fold steel, how to quench it and temper it. They might even be able to pick up a book and look at a picture of a new weapon and try to fashion one, but without the adventuring skill to know how to balance the sword it would likely be woefully short.Now someone who knows how to wield a sword, as well as how to craft one? They could make a superb sword for anyone to use.</blockquote>I really like this explanation.I'm also ok with there being an elite apprentice available to those who are 90/90. I have one of those. And that's the only character I have that's 90 in either adv. or TS. I'm ok with this character potentially being the only one that'll have this apprentice until I raise up another character or two. I like that there's a reward for people that have mastered both adv. and TS.

Necrotherian

03-30-2012, 12:10 AM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote>This isn't like they are substituting adventuring for the requirement of tradeskillint; that would make not make sense. This is just saying that in addition to tradeskilling.Like the best person to know how to make a sword is someone who has used one in battle and has a mastery of the strengths and weakness of the implementation of the sword AS WELL AS has the mastery of the artistry of making one.A pure adventurer might have great knowledge on how to use a sword and what chacracteristics are important. They might be able to pick up a book and read how to make a sword, and even manage to produce one, but without the crafting skillto know how to make the sword hard it would likely be woefully short.A pure crafter might have great knowledge on how to bend and fold steel, how to quench it and temper it. They might even be able to pick up a book and look at a picture of a new weapon and try to fashion one, but without the adventuring skill to know how to balance the sword it would likely be woefully short.Now someone who knows how to wield a sword, as well as how to craft one? They could make a superb sword for anyone to use.</blockquote>I've got 90/90s as well, but Mermud's point remains. I understand the viewpoint even if I don't particularly agree with it. I personally advocate that all play styles get some love here and there. Raiders should get their content, PUGers should get theirs, those that solely concentrate on crafting should get recipes for things that people actually want to pay money for, those that do both should get something, even those that duo should get content (even if it is scaled down content with scaled down rewards).Even though I don't particularly agree with the viewpoint, it could be said that one that makes the sword (and knows how to swing it) would be able to put it to better use. So here is a compromise: Make the item where anyone of the proper adventure level can equip it, but give it bonus stats that are unlocked if the wielder/wearer is 90/90.Just a thought.Rotherian Facepalmer

Lenanu

03-30-2012, 01:14 AM

According to the Q&A that was just posted, its only two apprentices, not three like Gninjadev made us beleive. Wonder where the other apprentice is located...

Triste-Lune

03-30-2012, 04:10 AM

<cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>According to the Q&A that was just posted, its only two apprentices, not three like Gninjadev made us beleive. Wonder where the other apprentice is located...</blockquote>hopefully in a raid zone and the recipe he ll give will be good enought to help raider step up on the next raid zone.

Elomort

03-30-2012, 07:11 AM

<cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote>Sounds like a good idea, especially when you consider that in order to do these missions we might need to level our level 3 crafter toons up 92 with 280 AAs.Bring on no crafted food, arrows and poisons unless the raider has ground out level 92 crafting!

Kuroitsuki

03-30-2012, 08:39 AM

Blimey Charlie!I don't ever seem to remember the raiders moaning when high level TS's were required to defeat Darathar (Wyrmsteel weapons / Forge of the Ages RAID / CRAFTING instance)For those of you that don't remember / never really played while 50 was the Lcap, to defeat Darathar, Team Raid had to have Wyrmsteel weapons, which meant a 4 man raid had to protect 1 little Weaponsmith in a raid zone while infinate adds spawned.There is an old saying in business, "if you always do, what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got"I seriously wonder why the Dev's just don't all /ragequit and go develop "pixelfairy farm manager delux 2" for the smartphone market. Probably more profitable and with less hassle.I mean seriously, listen to yourselves, you bemoan the dev team when the content is "cookie cutter" and "samey" but when they try something new, the attitude shifts to "OMG!!! L90 TS / L1 noob being locked out of new content after 6 years OMG!!11!!!!1". To all those TS only players saying that "if you have to be L90 / 90 to get them you have to be L90 / 90 to equipthem!!!1111one" then really, what you are saying is that you want the L90 adventurers to become TS self sufficient,Think about this for a moment: If they are L90 TS's WHY ON EARTH would they then buy stuff from you? Think about what you are saying... you want to destroy what is left of any TS market left in the game, all because of some unclear info on the only new apprentice found yet? Maybe it is time to PL to 92 (10 writs BTW) and start looking for the other one; I know that is what I am doing on test atmWell, what about if this is "new" content, is "new" bad? Imagine if all the raids / bosses had exactly the same starts mechanics tier after tier . Thikn about "Curses" in TSO, "resist gear" in SF "Debuffs" in Dov the game has to evolve or die, lets face it, TS has been stuck in a rut forever.Lets not just beat up on the dev's, let's look at their plan and throw out some constructive ideas to make things better.FWIW I have 5 L90 Adv, 7 L90 Crafters (5 x 90:320 / 90 and 2 x mid 50's / 90)

Triste-Lune

03-30-2012, 09:59 AM

<cite>Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blimey Charlie!I don't ever seem to remember the raiders moaning when high level TS's were required to defeat Darathar (Wyrmsteel weapons / Forge of the Ages RAID / CRAFTING instance)For those of you that don't remember / never really played while 50 was the Lcap, to defeat Darathar, Team Raid had to have Wyrmsteel weapons, which meant a 4 man raid had to protect 1 little Weaponsmith in a raid zone while infinate adds spawned.There is an old saying in business, "if you always do, what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got"I seriously wonder why the Dev's just don't all /ragequit and go develop "pixelfairy farm manager delux 2" for the smartphone market. Probably more profitable and with less hassle.I mean seriously, listen to yourselves, you bemoan the dev team when the content is "cookie cutter" and "samey" but when they try something new, the attitude shifts to "OMG!!! L90 TS / L1 noob being locked out of new content after 6 years OMG!!11!!!!1". To all those TS only players saying that "if you have to be L90 / 90 to get them you have to be L90 / 90 to equipthem!!!1111one" then really, what you are saying is that you want the L90 adventurers to become TS self sufficient,Think about this for a moment: If they are L90 TS's WHY ON EARTH would they then buy stuff from you? Think about what you are saying... you want to destroy what is left of any TS market left in the game, all because of some unclear info on the only new apprentice found yet? Maybe it is time to PL to 92 (10 writs BTW) and start looking for the other one; I know that is what I am doing on test atmWell, what about if this is "new" content, is "new" bad? Imagine if all the raids / bosses had exactly the same starts mechanics tier after tier . Thikn about "Curses" in TSO, "resist gear" in SF "Debuffs" in Dov the game has to evolve or die, lets face it, TS has been stuck in a rut forever.Lets not just beat up on the dev's, let's look at their plan and throw out some constructive ideas to make things better.FWIW I have 5 L90 Adv, 7 L90 Crafters (5 x 90:320 / 90 and 2 x mid 50's / 90)</blockquote>D A M N if i had a facebook account i would "like"

Elomort

03-30-2012, 10:57 AM

<cite>Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>To all those TS only players saying that "if you have to be L90 / 90 to get them you have to be L90 / 90 to equipthem!!!1111one" then really, what you are saying is that you want the L90 adventurers to become TS self sufficient,Think about this for a moment: If they are L90 TS's WHY ON EARTH would they then buy stuff from you? </blockquote>Firstly, what makes you think I even sell my stuff? Mostly I give it free.However, to answer as I see it for those that do sell, because your average raider, should he be required to be level 92 in tradeskilling will only grind out one tradeskill.They might take food, or they might take arrows, or they might take poisons, or they might take scrolls. All the other 8 tradeskills that raider didn't take can sell to him at profit. The tradeskiller that misses out on him gets others, they will not all take the same profession.Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.

Raknid

03-30-2012, 11:16 AM

<cite></cite><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>To all those TS only players saying that "if you have to be L90 / 90 to get them you have to be L90 / 90 to equipthem!!!1111one" then really, what you are saying is that you want the L90 adventurers to become TS self sufficient,Think about this for a moment: If they are L90 TS's WHY ON EARTH would they then buy stuff from you? </blockquote>Firstly, what makes you think I even sell my stuff? Mostly I give it free.However, to answer as I see it for those that do sell, because your average raider, should he be required to be level 92 in tradeskilling will only grind out one tradeskill.They might take food, or they might take arrows, or they might take poisons, or they might take scrolls. All the other 8 tradeskills that raider didn't take can sell to him at profit. The tradeskiller that misses out on him gets others, they will not all take the same profession.Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.</blockquote>You know you could turn that right around as a general principle and say "How would a level 1 adv, lev 90 tradeskiller really know how to make an effective sword at all if they have never used one?" and require tradeskillers in general to only be able to make things for sale if it is at or below their adventure level.They can make a crummy sword for their alts, but no one in their right mind is going to buy something, on which they stake their lives, from someone who has never used a sword to protect their own life.Would be kinda like going to a gunsmith who never shoots guns.So yeah, sure. These new recipes contain such powerful magic that only those who know the creation process as well can use them...along with...No tradeskiller can make an item useful for an adventurer if it is above their own adventure level as they can surely not know how to make an effective weapon if they have never used one before.My argument has about the same strength as yours.

Rijacki

03-30-2012, 11:55 AM

<cite>Elomort wrote:</cite><blockquote>Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.</blockquote>1) You can be level 90 adventurer to do the solo zone in question. That means you don't need 280+ AA. You might have some difficulty with the ring event if you have low AA, but you aren't required to have them or level 92.2) Most tinkered items that are useful in adventuring require a tinker skill as well as adventure level to use. So -that- mechainc has also been used before (and gets complained about).3) The -only- guarentee tradeskillers have ever had regarding recipes is that the Essentials would be readily available to crafters of any adventuring level. Advanced and everything else can, and generally does, have some other means to obtain it that can be tradeskill related or adventure related.4) Tradeskill quests other than writs pre-DoF, writs post EoF, and the one Isle of Refuge intro quest did not exist -at all- until RoK. Thus, most tradeskill related methods of obtaining special recipes of any kind didn't exist until RoK and later.5) It's not 'new' that a tradeskiller has to be a certain adventure level to be able to obtain a recipe (some are even still no trade with no alternate means to obtain them).6) It's not even 'new' that tradeskill special recipes have been available only through adventure content requiring a high (at the time of inclusion) adventure level. Many of those recipes have been trade-able, but that doesn't negate the fact adventuring by someone was required to get them.7) A tradeskill recipe as a reward for adventure content, whether trade-able or not, isn't even 'new'.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> SOME of the recipes requiring adventuring content have been made available on the Far Seas Trading Division faction merchant when the level (and means) to obtain them has made them undesirable as adventure content (i.e. the current level cap is far above them and they reauire a raid -at- a certain level range).

d1anaw

03-30-2012, 01:02 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite><blockquote>Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.</blockquote>1) You can be level 90 adventurer to do the solo zone in question. That means you don't need 280+ AA. You might have some difficulty with the ring event if you have low AA, but you aren't required to have them or level 92.2) Most tinkered items that are useful in adventuring require a tinker skill as well as adventure level to use. So -that- mechainc has also been used before (and gets complained about).3) The -only- guarentee tradeskillers have ever had regarding recipes is that the Essentials would be readily available to crafters of any adventuring level. Advanced and everything else can, and generally does, have some other means to obtain it that can be tradeskill related or adventure related.4) Tradeskill quests other than writs pre-DoF, writs post EoF, and the one Isle of Refuge intro quest did not exist -at all- until RoK. Thus, most tradeskill related methods of obtaining special recipes of any kind didn't exist until RoK and later.5) It's not 'new' that a tradeskiller has to be a certain adventure level to be able to obtain a recipe (some are even still no trade with no alternate means to obtain them).6) It's not even 'new' that tradeskill special recipes have been available only through adventure content requiring a high (at the time of inclusion) adventure level. Many of those recipes have been trade-able, but that doesn't negate the fact adventuring by someone was required to get them.7) A tradeskill recipe as a reward for adventure content, whether trade-able or not, isn't even 'new'.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> SOME of the recipes requiring adventuring content have been made available on the Far Seas Trading Division faction merchant when the level (and means) to obtain them has made them undesirable as adventure content (i.e. the current level cap is far above them and they reauire a raid -at- a certain level range).</blockquote>If you are going to set up a mechanism whereby a tradeskiller MUST max level adventure to be able to have access to max level crafting because you don't believe in the validity of a pure tradeskiller, then by the same token, force an adventurer to be a max level tradeskiller to gain access to the most desired items in the game that only a tradeskiller at max level can create and only for himself/herself. That only seems fair. And considering how many raiders positively loathe tradeskilling and tradeskillers, it'll be a blast to watch the drama.

d1anaw

03-30-2012, 01:08 PM

<cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote>How is it any more ridiculous than requiring tradeskillers to become max level adventurers?

d1anaw

03-30-2012, 01:14 PM

<cite>Rotherian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.</blockquote>I think it is a terrible idea. I think it would lead to the same kind of garbage that exists in raiding now, which is the reason I avoid raiding like the plague. The egomania and arrogance would take over just as it does in adventure raiding. The only real difference is that I cannot see a tradeskill raid requiring the same time sink and that might be it's saving grace.

ratbast

03-30-2012, 01:39 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rotherian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite>I know both of you were being facetious, but I think a crafting raid would be awesome. Something where at least one member of each TS subclass within the raid has to counter the reactive specific to their TS subclass or lose a bar of progress. And if a specific subclass doesn't counter it, the game notifies the entire raid which subclass it is. For example, if all the carpenters fail to counter the reactive for carpenters, it could give the raidwide message, "LOOKS LIKE THE CARPENTERS HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE JOB!" then everyone's progress bar takes a hit of one full line, and they lose 10% of their HP and maybe 3/4ths of a bar of durability.This idea actually has some potential.Then make the rewards either fabled MC gear recipes, or reactants specific to the TS level.</blockquote>I think it is a terrible idea. I think it would lead to the same kind of garbage that exists in raiding now, which is the reason I avoid raiding like the plague. The egomania and arrogance would take over just as it does in adventure raiding. The only real difference is that I cannot see a tradeskill raid requiring the same time sink and that might be it's saving grace.</blockquote>what are your thoughts on making tradeskilling more meaningful (challenging)?to advance or progress tradeskilling from its current form, it needs to be made more difficult. you cant get progressively better rewards while keeping its risk the same. its risk is already an easy target for adventurers to point at. if this question doesnt make sense to you its likely because you dont want change and think crafting has no room for growth. fair opinion, but i doubt many agree.unrelated, but i was wondering if the elite ts app will create items. adventure mercs are helpers not researchers. would be interesting if elite ts app was a temporary sweatshop slave.

Yimway

03-30-2012, 01:44 PM

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>According to the Q&A that was just posted, its only two apprentices, not three like Gninjadev made us beleive. Wonder where the other apprentice is located...</blockquote>hopefully in a raid zone and the recipe he ll give will be good enought to help raider step up on the next raid zone.</blockquote>This was my hopes as well.When I heard there was 3, I figured a solo, heroic, and raid version.

Deveryn

03-30-2012, 01:56 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote>How is it any more ridiculous than requiring tradeskillers to become max level adventurers?</blockquote>It's already been spelled out by myself and others. Continue reading past that point in the discussion. The bottom line is you're playing an adventure game and you're going to have to crack a few skulls to get some of the nicer things out there. People who only play about 5% of the game (I think I'm being generous here) are making suggestions that affect those that play a whole lot more of it. None of those ideas have any reasonable logic behind them.

Lenanu

03-30-2012, 02:16 PM

At least with it being 90/90 it means those with no intrest in tradeskilling cannot get him just like those tradeskillers with no intrest in adventuring cannot get him. That leaves a SMALL selection of players who do BOTH adventuring AND tradeskilling able to aquire them. These are special apprentices, not your run of the mill apprentice you can pick up in your local tradeskill hall. Some effort has to be made in order to get them otherwise it will devalue the recipies you can get off of them. Think about it. Quite a few of us tradeskillers are also decorators and we spend days if not months on a single project, pulling hard, cussing up a storm, and throwing fits until things work the way we want them to. The pride that comes from completing that work is overwhelming. Its the same with the new apprentices in my honest opinion. Getting it handed to you on a silver platter is demeaning to the character of the new apprentices they created for us. They were even nice enough to have HOUSE ITEM recipies on there for us who were complaining about lack of Carpenter House Item apprentice recipies when they first GAVE us apprentices. I swear one of these days all this moaning and complaining will cause the Devs to completly REMOVE features just to shut us up.

Mermut

03-30-2012, 02:30 PM

<cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote>How is it any more ridiculous than requiring tradeskillers to become max level adventurers?</blockquote>It's already been spelled out by myself and others. Continue reading past that point in the discussion. The bottom line is you're playing an adventure game and you're going to have to crack a few skulls to get some of the nicer things out there. People who only play about 5% of the game (I think I'm being generous here) are making suggestions that affect those that play a whole lot more of it. None of those ideas have any reasonable logic behind them.</blockquote>You haven't 'spelled' anything out. You've stated that you think it's stupid and unfair for adventurers to have high tradeskill level to equip the best items a tradeskiller can make. But you think that tradeskillers should have to be high adventure level to get access to the best recipes because adventuring is 'the real way' the game is SUPPOSED to be played. You're also ignoring that a good number of the people who think this unexplained brainstorm of restricted tradeskillers access to recipes is a bad idea DO adventure and DO have multiple toons that meet the 90/90 requirement. For many of us it's not a case of 'I think it's a bad idea because I can't get the recipes that I want'. We actually have logical and considered reasons for our opposition to this that is based on (our opinions) about what is fair and best for the game. Yes, it's an opinion, but it's a reasoned one; not one that denigrates other people's preferences in playstyle. One of the biggested strengths EQ2 is that there are so many different ways to play this game. No other game I've found out there gives players the wide breath of ways to enjoy the game and gives them the ability to engage in as many or as few of those options as they wish. I want EQ2 to keep that.To reiterate: If these recipes are intended as rewards for 90/90 toons, they should have an adventuring advantage over a 90/0 who knows somebody with the recipe, since the restriction on the tradeskill side is an adventuring requirement. This isn't about how hard adventuring is compared tradeskilling. It's about equity and balance.What I'd really like, is to hear the reasoning behind this decision from somebody who knows (ie somebody on the dev/design team). But they've been pretty darn silent on nearly everything tradeskill related.. like the lack of lvl 90 recipe books, the state, or even existance, of T10 adorning, tinkering and transmuting, etc.

Giallolas

03-30-2012, 02:38 PM

I'm one of the guys with 9 level 90 crafters and only one of them is a level 90 adventurer. I'm a bit worried about this, but not thoroughly alarmed. It's ok with me if they want to make some portion of the game, at times, Elite and therefore unavailable to the vast majority of the populace. It would be cool to have things truly elite.However, I do think it needs to go both ways. As some have already stated, I'd like to see a raid zone available only to level 90 adventurers AND level 90 crafters as well. Make it the top tier raid zone that will be the top gear seen for the next 6 months to a year just as this one will be for crafters. Call it an ELITE zone and perhaps make it so you must have your Shawl complete to take on the last mob or two. After all, the last two named in the new crafting zone seem to be soloable by someone in Rygorr, so it would seem somewhat appropriate to put a crafting gear requirement on this new zone as well.

Mermut

03-30-2012, 02:39 PM

<cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>At least with it being 90/90 it means those with no intrest in tradeskilling cannot get him just like those tradeskillers with no intrest in adventuring cannot get him. That leaves a SMALL selection of players who do BOTH adventuring AND tradeskilling able to aquire them. These are special apprentices, not your run of the mill apprentice you can pick up in your local tradeskill hall. Some effort has to be made in order to get them otherwise it will devalue the recipies you can get off of them. Think about it. Quite a few of us tradeskillers are also decorators and we spend days if not months on a single project, pulling hard, cussing up a storm, and throwing fits until things work the way we want them to. The pride that comes from completing that work is overwhelming. Its the same with the new apprentices in my honest opinion. Getting it handed to you on a silver platter is demeaning to the character of the new apprentices they created for us. They were even nice enough to have HOUSE ITEM recipies on there for us who were complaining about lack of Carpenter House Item apprentice recipies when they first GAVE us apprentices. I swear one of these days all this moaning and complaining will cause the Devs to completly REMOVE features just to shut us up.</blockquote>I have, never, said I thought these apprentices should be handed out on a silver platter. I've actually said that I think they should require real time and effort to get. I just believe that it should something along the lines of the time and effort it took to get the Prayer Shawl. There were people who thought that questline took too long and that the final combine step was too hard. I actually thought both were good, as was the fact that you had to get the combines from other crafters in the right order and couldn't get them ahead of time.In many way the method of getting the apprentices feels lazy. It appears that the developers didn't want the recipes to be easy to get (good sentifiment in my opinion), but they didn't have the time, inclination or whatever to make a tradeskill questline to get them. Instead they tossed them in the back of a high level adventure zone and if you have the tradeskill level when you talk to it, it comes along w/o any further effort on your part. Minimal amount of developer time. Just toss it into an existing zone and slap a tiny conversation on it, minimal effort. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />editted for typos

Raknid

03-30-2012, 02:54 PM

<cite><cite>Hey Mermut. Read my response to Elomort about your idea. Not gonna bother typing it again since you seemed to have just skipped right over it the first time. My argument for changing it so that TSers can't make anything above their adventure level is just as sound as your stretch. </cite></cite><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>To all those TS only players saying that "if you have to be L90 / 90 to get them you have to be L90 / 90 to equipthem!!!1111one" then really, what you are saying is that you want the L90 adventurers to become TS self sufficient,Think about this for a moment: If they are L90 TS's WHY ON EARTH would they then buy stuff from you? </blockquote>Firstly, what makes you think I even sell my stuff? Mostly I give it free.However, to answer as I see it for those that do sell, because your average raider, should he be required to be level 92 in tradeskilling will only grind out one tradeskill.They might take food, or they might take arrows, or they might take poisons, or they might take scrolls. All the other 8 tradeskills that raider didn't take can sell to him at profit. The tradeskiller that misses out on him gets others, they will not all take the same profession.Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.</blockquote>You know you could turn that right around as a general principle and say "How would a level 1 adv, lev 90 tradeskiller really know how to make an effective sword at all if they have never used one?" and require tradeskillers in general to only be able to make things for sale if it is at or below their adventure level.They can make a crummy sword for their alts, but no one in their right mind is going to buy something, on which they stake their lives, from someone who has never used a sword to protect their own life.Would be kinda like going to a gunsmith who never shoots guns.So yeah, sure. These new recipes contain such powerful magic that only those who know the creation process as well can use them...along with...No tradeskiller can make an item useful for an adventurer if it is above their own adventure level as they can surely not know how to make an effective weapon if they have never used one before.My argument has about the same strength as yours.</blockquote>

Neskonlith

03-30-2012, 03:04 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead they tossed them in the back of a high level adventure zone and if you have the tradeskill level when you talk to it, it comes along w/o any further effort on your part.Minimal amount of developer time.Just toss it into an existing zone and slap a tiny conversation on it, minimal effort.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I dislike admitting it, but it is true that crafting is far too safe and coddled as it is.If we as crafters refuse to venture beyond the safe zone of the current play-style, then we do not deserve full access to offer desirable items that are superior to adventure drops where players assume a significant risk in comparison.So far, it appears SOE has two main options available to attempt balancing the Risk vs Reward: <ol><li>resurrect killer crafting stations on the desirable, high-end combines</li><li>continue to lock more high-end recipes away behind adventure risk requirements </li></ol> Having started crafting at launch when we had tradeskill fatalities, I can confirm that it was significantly more fun to craft when you needed to respect the power of the forge!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Tylia

03-30-2012, 03:29 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenanu@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>At least with it being 90/90 it means those with no intrest in tradeskilling cannot get him just like those tradeskillers with no intrest in adventuring cannot get him. That leaves a SMALL selection of players who do BOTH adventuring AND tradeskilling able to aquire them. These are special apprentices, not your run of the mill apprentice you can pick up in your local tradeskill hall. Some effort has to be made in order to get them otherwise it will devalue the recipies you can get off of them. Think about it. Quite a few of us tradeskillers are also decorators and we spend days if not months on a single project, pulling hard, cussing up a storm, and throwing fits until things work the way we want them to. The pride that comes from completing that work is overwhelming. Its the same with the new apprentices in my honest opinion. Getting it handed to you on a silver platter is demeaning to the character of the new apprentices they created for us. They were even nice enough to have HOUSE ITEM recipies on there for us who were complaining about lack of Carpenter House Item apprentice recipies when they first GAVE us apprentices. I swear one of these days all this moaning and complaining will cause the Devs to completly REMOVE features just to shut us up.</blockquote>I have, never, said I thought these apprentices should be handed out on a silver platter. I've actually said that I think they should require real time and effort to get. I just believe that it should something along the lines of the time and effort it took to get the Prayer Shawl. There were people who thought that questline took too long and that the final combine step was too hard. I actually thought both were good, as was the fact that you had to get the combines from other crafters in the right order and couldn't get them ahead of time.In many way the method of getting the apprentices feels lazy. It appears that the developers didn't want the recipes to be easy to get (good sentifiment in my opinion), but they didn't have the time, inclination or whatever to make a tradeskill questline to get them. Instead they tossed them in the back of a high level adventure zone and if you have the tradeskill level when you talk to it, it comes along w/o any further effort on your part. Minimal amount of developer time. Just toss it into an existing zone and slap a tiny conversation on it, minimal effort. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />editted for typos</blockquote>They DO require real time and effort to get. The time and effort required to level your character to 90 adventuring AND 90 tradeskilling. Someone who is a 90/90 is just as much a tradeskiller as someone who is 1/90. Just because they have that high adventure level to go along with the high tradeskill level, doesn't mean they are any less of a tradeskiller and vice/versa. Why do so many "pure" tradeskillers (I'm not specifiying any one particular person) seem to have the idea that someone who does both is not as skilled at crafting?And as you said in a previous post: One of the biggested strengths EQ2 is that there are so many different ways to play this game. No other game I've found out there gives players the wide breath of ways to enjoy the game and gives them the ability to engage in as many or as few of those options as they wish. I want EQ2 to keep that.This is doing exactly that, presenting a different way to play this game. A new option to either choose to engage in or not.edited for clarification.

Rijacki

03-30-2012, 03:53 PM

<cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite><blockquote>Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.</blockquote>1) You can be level 90 adventurer to do the solo zone in question. That means you don't need 280+ AA. You might have some difficulty with the ring event if you have low AA, but you aren't required to have them or level 92.2) Most tinkered items that are useful in adventuring require a tinker skill as well as adventure level to use. So -that- mechainc has also been used before (and gets complained about).3) The -only- guarentee tradeskillers have ever had regarding recipes is that the Essentials would be readily available to crafters of any adventuring level. Advanced and everything else can, and generally does, have some other means to obtain it that can be tradeskill related or adventure related.4) Tradeskill quests other than writs pre-DoF, writs post EoF, and the one Isle of Refuge intro quest did not exist -at all- until RoK. Thus, most tradeskill related methods of obtaining special recipes of any kind didn't exist until RoK and later.5) It's not 'new' that a tradeskiller has to be a certain adventure level to be able to obtain a recipe (some are even still no trade with no alternate means to obtain them).6) It's not even 'new' that tradeskill special recipes have been available only through adventure content requiring a high (at the time of inclusion) adventure level. Many of those recipes have been trade-able, but that doesn't negate the fact adventuring by someone was required to get them.7) A tradeskill recipe as a reward for adventure content, whether trade-able or not, isn't even 'new'.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> SOME of the recipes requiring adventuring content have been made available on the Far Seas Trading Division faction merchant when the level (and means) to obtain them has made them undesirable as adventure content (i.e. the current level cap is far above them and they reauire a raid -at- a certain level range).</blockquote>If you are going to set up a mechanism whereby a tradeskiller MUST max level adventure to be able to have access to max level crafting because you don't believe in the validity of a pure tradeskiller, then by the same token, force an adventurer to be a max level tradeskiller to gain access to the most desired items in the game that only a tradeskiller at max level can create and only for himself/herself. That only seems fair. And considering how many raiders positively loathe tradeskilling and tradeskillers, it'll be a blast to watch the drama.</blockquote>No one is discounting the "validity" of a pure tradeskiller. Yet, there are those (such as you seem to be) who appear to want to demean the "validity" of someone who both tradeskills -and- adventures. How that character is less of a tradeskiller is unfathomable to me.There are raiders ("those who raid in progression content") who enjoy tradeskilling and tradeskillers who also raid (in progression content). Imagine that? Are they to be considered less as tradeskillers, less as adventurers, less as raiders just because they do all of those things? Why can't they do all those things if they enjoy them -and- be rewarded for doing so?So-called "pure" tradeskillers are not the be-all-end-all of tradeskilling. They are not and should not be held aloft as somehow better than other players who participate in more of the game.

Skeez1e

03-30-2012, 04:24 PM

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and I know from my end game raiding days in EQ1, raiders will go to any lengths to raid - even if they hate it. Flags, keys, faction are just as many mouseclicks as tradeskilling and those with the disposition/passion to raid are driven - and they will do it if it's a requirement.They might moan, groan and generally complain - but do it they will.Overall this is a great discussion! I hadn't been motivated to get my crafter an apprentice before but I did with this one. Now it's a hurry up and wait for the recipes - which, when you think about it, are 18 days each - that's like 6 months of ho hum. Should bring it to the next GU/expansion/whatever - a decent amount of time for the devs to evaluate how it's turned out.

Cloudrat

03-30-2012, 04:36 PM

<cite>Skeez1e wrote:</cite><blockquote>One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and I know from my end game raiding days in EQ1, raiders will go to any lengths to raid - even if they hate it. Flags, keys, faction are just as many mouseclicks as tradeskilling and those with the disposition/passion to raid are driven - and they will do it if it's a requirement.They might moan, groan and generally complain - but do it they will.Overall this is a great discussion! I hadn't been motivated to get my crafter an apprentice before but I did with this one. Now it's a hurry up and wait for the recipes - which, when you think about it, are 18 days each - that's like 6 months of ho hum. Should bring it to the next GU/expansion/whatever - a decent amount of time for the devs to evaluate how it's turned out.</blockquote>Yes, looks like the perfect addition to the home of any raider<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> A very large, ferocious, droag that stands in the house and hands you a recipe every 18 days. This will be a great way to get raid guilds working together making sure each raider learns a different recipe the first week so they are able to make everything in 18 days.Since you can now become a 90 crafter in a day or two and same holds true for adventuring to 90 the only thing left will be grinding AA, which also is easy from what I have been reading, it won't be long devs won't need to do anything but make dungeon encounters! Finally a dream come true.Edit spelling error

Mermut

03-30-2012, 05:16 PM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>Hey Mermut. Read my response to Elomort about your idea. Not gonna bother typing it again since you seemed to have just skipped right over it the first time. My argument for changing it so that TSers can't make anything above their adventure level is just as sound as your stretch. </cite></blockquote>I read your post and I disagree with you. Aside from any opinion based issues, it would also not work with the mechanics of the crafting system: Crafted item level is not the same as item level for all except scholar recipes. For example chest peices tend to be in the level 19,29,etc recipe books, but the items they make are level 10,12,20,22, etc.)

Davalin

03-30-2012, 05:44 PM

If this goes live, I would like to see more raids like The Gates of Ahket Aken from DoF. To win the final boss fight an item crafted by a jeweler in the raid zone was required. The raid involved killing a mini boss for the component/recipe and another fight to defend the jeweler as they create the item.

Deveryn

03-30-2012, 06:17 PM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>d1anaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask again...If you have to be 90/90 to get the recipe, why shouldn't you have to be 90/90 to use it?Why are the tradeskillers the only one required to do 'more' then tradeskilling for the recipe if the adventurers don't have to do 'more' the adventuring to make use of the recipe?I freely admit that tradeskilling is easier to level up then adventuring. That isn't really pertinant though, since the question isn't about difficulty, but requiring an adventure benchmark for a tradeskill recipe without requiring the anologous tradeskill benchmark for the adventurers to make use of the said recipes.</blockquote>So, in order to take a drink or eat a piece of food, you suggest that a person should first master the ability to make a spell or a bench? A person can't put a robe or earring on without the ability to weave a bag or smith a sword? Come on. That sounds ridiculous.</blockquote>How is it any more ridiculous than requiring tradeskillers to become max level adventurers?</blockquote>It's already been spelled out by myself and others. Continue reading past that point in the discussion. The bottom line is you're playing an adventure game and you're going to have to crack a few skulls to get some of the nicer things out there. People who only play about 5% of the game (I think I'm being generous here) are making suggestions that affect those that play a whole lot more of it. None of those ideas have any reasonable logic behind them.</blockquote>You haven't 'spelled' anything out. You've stated that you think it's stupid and unfair for adventurers to have high tradeskill level to equip the best items a tradeskiller can make. But you think that tradeskillers should have to be high adventure level to get access to the best recipes because adventuring is 'the real way' the game is SUPPOSED to be played. You're also ignoring that a good number of the people who think this unexplained brainstorm of restricted tradeskillers access to recipes is a bad idea DO adventure and DO have multiple toons that meet the 90/90 requirement. For many of us it's not a case of 'I think it's a bad idea because I can't get the recipes that I want'. We actually have logical and considered reasons for our opposition to this that is based on (our opinions) about what is fair and best for the game. Yes, it's an opinion, but it's a reasoned one; not one that denigrates other people's preferences in playstyle. One of the biggested strengths EQ2 is that there are so many different ways to play this game. No other game I've found out there gives players the wide breath of ways to enjoy the game and gives them the ability to engage in as many or as few of those options as they wish. I want EQ2 to keep that.To reiterate: If these recipes are intended as rewards for 90/90 toons, they should have an adventuring advantage over a 90/0 who knows somebody with the recipe, since the restriction on the tradeskill side is an adventuring requirement. This isn't about how hard adventuring is compared tradeskilling. It's about equity and balance.What I'd really like, is to hear the reasoning behind this decision from somebody who knows (ie somebody on the dev/design team). But they've been pretty darn silent on nearly everything tradeskill related.. like the lack of lvl 90 recipe books, the state, or even existance, of T10 adorning, tinkering and transmuting, etc.</blockquote>I didn't say it was unfair to adventurers to have a TS requirement for equipping gear. I've only said that the ideas are illogical and pointless. Some people feel like they're being punished with the limited access to the apprentice and their idea to throw another punishment back to the other side of the playerbase really doesn't amount to anything. I'm not ignoring anybody. Your claims of reason don't hold up. I'm not trying to denigrate anyone's playstyle choice. I'm simply stating facts. EQ2 is keeping all those options you mentioned, so you don't have to worry about that.On to your reiteration: You've still got things mixed up. I'm not repeating myself on that point again. Your concept of equity and balance has severe holes in its logic.

Kuroitsuki

03-30-2012, 07:13 PM

<cite>Elomort wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>To all those TS only players saying that "if you have to be L90 / 90 to get them you have to be L90 / 90 to equipthem!!!1111one" then really, what you are saying is that you want the L90 adventurers to become TS self sufficient,Think about this for a moment: If they are L90 TS's WHY ON EARTH would they then buy stuff from you? </blockquote>Firstly, what makes you think I even sell my stuff? Mostly I give it free.However, to answer as I see it for those that do sell, because your average raider, should he be required to be level 92 in tradeskilling will only grind out one tradeskill.They might take food, or they might take arrows, or they might take poisons, or they might take scrolls. All the other 8 tradeskills that raider didn't take can sell to him at profit. The tradeskiller that misses out on him gets others, they will not all take the same profession.Requiring raiders to have to grind out tradeskilling in order to equip BIS crafted gear is a brilliant idea, it has the same brilliance as needing adventurers to get 280AAs before they can level to 92 or tradeskillers need to run a high level instance and thus level 9 toons :- It stops them being lazy in their character development.</blockquote>I don't really know where to start with this; honestly. The original idea behind TS was to make it difficult to make all 9, hence the TS interdependancy of old. Then it was dumbed down, then again, etc, etc.What about is they introduced a rare TC assist that you could only get after 9K pristine crafts, that is about as much work as 280AA (about 1K crafts to L90 BTW). Sound fair?Personally, I TS to a) help my guild b) make free crap for myself c)......profit!If you seriously expect the progression raid players to be 90/90, then you get a whole lot more of a) going on and a whole lot less of c)And seriously, Arrows, Potions, Experts, Totems, Fireseeds scrolls ^_^ yum! You give them away for free... can I pay to have you come to SP?People in the thread are bemoaning that they are "reducing the ability to play a pure TS experience" but their solution is to make everybody TS, hence reducing the L90 adv toon's need of you? if a 24man raid force is required to pick up TS's, it is statistically unlikely that out of a choice of 9, 24 people will not cover all bases.

Elomort

03-30-2012, 07:59 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead they tossed them in the back of a high level adventure zone and if you have the tradeskill level when you talk to it, it comes along w/o any further effort on your part.Minimal amount of developer time.Just toss it into an existing zone and slap a tiny conversation on it, minimal effort.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I dislike admitting it, but it is true that crafting is far too safe and coddled as it is.If we as crafters refuse to venture beyond the safe zone of the current play-style, then we do not deserve full access to offer desirable items that are superior to adventure drops where players assume a significant risk in comparison.So far, it appears SOE has two main options available to attempt balancing the Risk vs Reward: <ol><li>resurrect killer crafting stations on the desirable, high-end combines</li><li>continue to lock more high-end recipes away behind adventure risk requirements </li></ol> Having started crafting at launch when we had tradeskill fatalities, I can confirm that it was significantly more fun to craft when you needed to respect the power of the forge!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Bringing back killer crafting would be one of the smartest things that SOE did in order to add a little challenge to the process. Maybe lessen it a little for the lower levels so that the first miss merely knocks you back and sets you on fire, but on the second miss, or at higher levels, if you miss you die.SOE have to take this to the conclusion - They need to make sure that people who only quest in overland zones can't level to 92 unless they have 280AAs, they need to make sure that raiders can't equip BIS crafted gear unless they have a level 92 crafter and they must make crafting tables kill again even if only at the higher levels.SOE have started making some wonderful steps to improve the game with the 280AA requirement, time to push that on to stop more people playing their way - Killer Tables and 92/92 needed for BIS gear, food, totems, arrows, poisons.

govtcheeze

03-30-2012, 08:26 PM

I haven't raided or grouped since Moors, so I do not completely understand the mechanics of these zones. And I have only been back played for 2 months or so and a lot has changed since then.But doesn't the heirloom tag allow anyone to get zone access on their account and then share that item with any character on their account? So if I had a 90 with raid zone access and looted an item, I could pass that item off to my level 90 (or level 2) who could use the item once they hit the appropriate level?If so this seems like this whole 90/90 argument is easily resolved. Most people who have a serious crafting habit also have at least one high level char because they got their pony. It seems like we should be able to get one char access to the 90/90 zone, get our "token" or whatever from the zone and pass it off to our other 90 crafters who can continue on the main quest line.Seems to solve the problem of people wanting this to be an "elite" reward for people who have experienced both sides of the game without making peoiple grind out 9x90 levels and 9x200 AAs.I also may not understand how zone access and heirloom works ... in that case nevermind <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Deveryn

03-30-2012, 11:06 PM

Have those with complaints even noticed that the apprentice covers the primary classes? That means you would only need 3 crafters.

NiamiDenMother

03-30-2012, 11:52 PM

From tonight's Test patch notes:Dracurion Tradeskill Apprentices are now obtained by using Dracurion Research Prisms. These prisms can be used once per character, are tradable, and are acquirable in the same way that you obtained the dracurion tradeskill apprentices previously.

Lenanu

03-31-2012, 12:23 AM

Rather wish they kept it the way it was... In my honest opinion -.- Game is getting too easy that its actually getting boring fast.

Deveryn

03-31-2012, 12:46 AM

meh <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Kuulei

03-31-2012, 02:34 AM

I am still leveling an outfitter conjuror to 90 (from 49) adventurer and I am gonna try to level a little fury thats 39 to 90 during the bonus weekend (easter weekend) who is a scholar.Thing is I have a 90 adventurer, my warden, who is also a 90 carpenter. I wanted all the tradeskills because as many of you well know, when you need a crafter, they just are not around! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I had never planned on leveling my crafters beyond survivable levels of adventuring and to make crafting, gathering and tradeskilling easier, I made several crafters my favorite class of druid! Why you say? Well for ease of getting around (portals) and SoW!So what the heck am I gonna do with a bunch of 90 druids!??!?? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

jinxxer

03-31-2012, 03:59 PM

So the tradeskill apprentice went from having to be 90/90 and work for it to where it can now just be given to crafters who aren't 90 crafters? So some have to work a little harder while other just get it handed to them to profit off of?I'll admit I didn't really like having to be 90/90 when I first heard it, but then it got me motivated to level up my other crafters adventure level - it was somewhat of a challenge - or at least a little more work for something nice. Now I feel that it should be left at 90/90 instead of it being something that can be bought off the broker or given to you by someone else who has done the work for it. Way too easy if it's tradeable.If you're going to remove the 90/90 requirements at least make a longer harder quest line to obtain these apprentices. Even if this takes more time and has to be implemented at a little later time. You never know - crafters might actually like having a level 90 adventurer - I know I enjoy both. I have moaned and groaned over leveling a crafter - and the same for leveling an adventurerer - seems daunting until you just do it. I didn't really want a crafter or like them but leveled them up to be able to make my own stuff. The same should be said - people may not want to level an adventurer but would if they needed it to access elite recipes. No one is forcing anyone to do anything in the game - but if you want something you work for it - just like everything else you work for to get in the game.Please don't make this super easy to get - it defeats the eliteness of it.