GU63 Gear Progression? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Nrgy

03-16-2012, 12:25 PM

<cite>Gargamel wrote:</cite><blockquote>I haven't been onto test yet since the patch, but from the little reports I've read the SOLO content for the GU is offering rewards better than all EZ mode raids and some upgrades even from hard mode vanilla DoV.My first question is: is this true? Its only been a day and info is only from a few people from here and flames, so gotta' take with a grain of salt.And secondly the question, if it is: will this stand? Will solo quests in gu63 upgrade raid gear in DoV?I had expected GU63 to have heroic/raid zones both ez and hard mode and ez mode would upgrade ez drunder, and hard would bridge gap after hm drunder to plane of war. But from what I hear all of GU63 gear, even solo quest crap, is above everything except hm drunder.</blockquote>Just to point out, much of the SF T1 raid gear was replaced with level 86 Othmir and Snowfang Gnoll quest gear and that was well before PQ gear replaced SF-T2 and Ry'Gorr gear replaced SF T2-T3. All that was without a level increase, and even though it's only 2 levels. These two levels gear wise, stat wise and prestige (AA) wise represent much more than just 2 physical levels.

Geothe

03-16-2012, 12:32 PM

The loot is still a bit crazy in these areas.Opening quest upon zoning into Witherlands, a helm with 140-ish Agi/Sta and +20 AE Autoattack!/blinks.Thats not right.

Raknid

03-16-2012, 12:36 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loot is still a bit crazy in these areas.Opening quest upon zoning into Witherlands, a helm with 140-ish Agi/Sta and +20 AE Autoattack!/blinks.Thats not right.</blockquote>I think it is going to bite them in the rump if they keep eliminating content by virture of completely invalidating the gear that gives that content.I like the KOS/EOF model best. There was always something to do and at least a few reason to run old zones/raids.

hoosierdaddy

03-16-2012, 12:53 PM

So we can basically take a break from HM raiding until ~April 17, when the rewards from our previous year of raiding have been rendered obsolete by overland quest rewards?Great idea! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Nrgy

03-16-2012, 01:00 PM

<cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loot is still a bit crazy in these areas.Opening quest upon zoning into Witherlands, a helm with 140-ish Agi/Sta and +20 AE Autoattack!/blinks.Thats not right.</blockquote>I think it is going to bite them in the rump if they keep eliminating content by virture of completely invalidating the gear that gives that content.I like the KOS/EOF model best. There was always something to do and at least a few reason to run old zones/raids.</blockquote>That will ultimately depend on the depth and amount of content that is added. Replacing the geared from DOV launch isn't the problem but offering people something to do with the new content very well can be. If replacing gear from 13 Heroics, 2 Challenge Heroics, 2 x2's, 6 EMx4's and 6 HMx4's is done with 1 or 2 solo / Heroic / Heroic Challenge / EMx4 or HMx4 just won't balance and will not give people enough content to use.I would think & hope that Drunder x4, at least the HM, and EOW EM/HM content would still relevant since most people haven't cleared it yet. And POW is another story entirely.Here is hoping that 10+ relevant zones (gear & challenge wise) don't get replace by 5+ new tiered zones.

Leovinus

03-16-2012, 03:46 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loot is still a bit crazy in these areas.Opening quest upon zoning into Witherlands, a helm with 140-ish Agi/Sta and +20 AE Autoattack!/blinks.Thats not right.</blockquote>I think it is going to bite them in the rump if they keep eliminating content by virture of completely invalidating the gear that gives that content.I like the KOS/EOF model best. There was always something to do and at least a few reason to run old zones/raids.</blockquote>I would think & hope that Drunder x4, at least the HM, and EOW EM/HM content would still relevant since most people haven't cleared it yet. And POW is another story entirely.Here is hoping that 10+ relevant zones (gear & challenge wise) don't get replace by 5+ new tiered zones.</blockquote>Unfortunately, that will only work if they make sure that Drunder x4 HM and the other stuff you mentioned are balanced such that they are accessible by a larger portion of the population. Maybe 2 extra levels and this prestige stuff will do that, but maybe not. All I can say for sure is that SOE has a pretty serious balancing job to do, and we'll see how it comes out. I don't envy them that, because no matter how they do it, even if it's the best way possible for the game, a large percentage of people will be very upset.

Geothe

03-16-2012, 03:52 PM

<cite>Leovinus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, that will only work if they make sure that Drunder x4 HM and the other stuff you mentioned are balanced such that they are accessible by a larger portion of the population. Maybe 2 extra levels and this prestige stuff will do that, but maybe not. All I can say for sure is that SOE has a pretty serious balancing job to do, and we'll see how it comes out. I don't envy them that, because no matter how they do it, even if it's the best way possible for the game, a large percentage of people will be very upset.</blockquote>Well,Looking through what the Prestige abilities do thus far (not even taking into account the endlines that are to be added yet) I think that they will definitely help open up current raid content to more guilds. There is a pretty large DPS increase (raid wide) that will be associated with all these abilities, and that in and of itself makes content easier since there are several DPS checks on lots of the encounters, not to mention damage reduction abilites for tanks/healers will greatly increase survivability.

Nrgy

03-16-2012, 05:05 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leovinus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, that will only work if they make sure that Drunder x4 HM and the other stuff you mentioned are balanced such that they are accessible by a larger portion of the population. Maybe 2 extra levels and this prestige stuff will do that, but maybe not. All I can say for sure is that SOE has a pretty serious balancing job to do, and we'll see how it comes out. I don't envy them that, because no matter how they do it, even if it's the best way possible for the game, a large percentage of people will be very upset.</blockquote>Well,Looking through what the Prestige abilities do thus far (not even taking into account the endlines that are to be added yet) I think that they will definitely help open up current raid content to more guilds. There is a pretty large DPS increase (raid wide) that will be associated with all these abilities, and that in and of itself makes content easier since there are several DPS checks on lots of the encounters, not to mention damage reduction abilites for tanks/healers will greatly increase survivability.</blockquote>Whether guild which are unable to raid Drunder or Drunder HM now will be able too after GU63 is live due to +2 levels and perstige abilities is NOT the point. The point is whether or not the new overland quest gear or new solo/heroic zones make Drunder and Druner HM a total waste of time.If guild that can't do drunder now level up and get thier prestige abilities and get the gear reset done in WL and Sky Heroics yet will have more tools to run the drunder and drunder HM, but if the drunder gear is sub-par .. who will bother. thus removing nearly 20 zone instances from the level cap of content that is revelant.

Drumstix

03-16-2012, 05:45 PM

If we get cookie cutter upgrades just to replace all the items that haven't been looked at or fixed in the past half of year, I'm going to be pretty mad overall at the Update.If the new raid content is meant to be a progression forward (as in harder than current content), then the current gear needs to be fixed and the New gear needs to be improvements on top of that. I don't want half baked bandaids. No one in HM raiding is very happy with how bad itemization is being handled anymore.

gourdon

03-16-2012, 09:06 PM

From what little I saw, some of the stats were pretty good on some of the quest gear, but the crit bonus and potency were not so much. It is a pretty steep progression, but not quite at the level of SF to DoV. If there is a chance that the inflation could be toned down, I think it would be a good thing, though I don't think it is horribly out of hand from what I've seen.

Darkholis

03-17-2012, 02:25 AM

Had a talk with a GM about gear progression in GU63 on first day it's been out on test. Big points to understand are:1- EM/HM DoV vanilla will be boosted a bit to be in line with new quest gear stats.2- EM/HM DoV vanilla gear is expected to be used for instances ONLY not for raiding purposes.3- ALL DoV current raid gear (vanilla + drunder) stats are not in line with new raid progression.For those asking what gear looks like, well as a EM raid gear guardian, got my access to all group instances np and tanked succesfully Covenant District EM and HM and Dracur Prime EM as well.Quest gear beat current EM DoV raid gear hands down. For example, tank helm gives 65% dps and boots over 29% attack speed.EM instance loot is pretty much the same as contested drops in Skyshrine, which are about 150 main stats and 150 sta with mix of MA/casting and reuse in big amount.HM instance loot is superior to HM DoV vanilla drops and some pieces for certain classe beats HM drunder. For example, mages gloves gives 8.8 potency, 10.8 crit bonus, 35 casting speed, 340 ability modifier and procs 18.9% crit bonus to the caster.As some of you guys and ladies know, there is 2 contested x2 mobs out there in WL atm. Some of my friends smacked the raptor today and he droped leather healer shoulders which were pretty awesome. 210 wis 180 sta, 45 MA, 38 casting..... 2 whites slots +1 redLike I previously said, I already tanked groups zones in EM/HM and I can say HM mobs hits like trucks.....200k+ lol, so I personally think new gear even if have no class focus gives you the required amount of hp to survive there.

Luterin

03-17-2012, 03:17 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to point out, much of the SF T1 raid gear was replaced with level 86 Othmir and Snowfang Gnoll quest gear and that was well before PQ gear replaced SF-T2 and Ry'Gorr gear replaced SF T2-T3. All that was without a level increase, and even though it's only 2 levels. These two levels gear wise, stat wise and prestige (AA) wise represent much more than just 2 physical levels.</blockquote>Just to point out, this is a GU, NOT an expansion... They are making all of the previous DoV content obsolete with a GU which contains 1 zone and a few dungeons?

denmom

03-17-2012, 03:38 PM

<cite>Darkholis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Had a talk with a GM about gear progression in GU63 on first day it's been out on test. Big points to understand are:1- EM/HM DoV vanilla will be boosted a bit to be in line with new quest gear stats.2- EM/HM DoV vanilla gear is expected to be used for instances ONLY not for raiding purposes.3- ALL DoV current raid gear (vanilla + drunder) stats are not in line with new raid progression.For those asking what gear looks like, well as a EM raid gear guardian, got my access to all group instances np and tanked succesfully Covenant District EM and HM and Dracur Prime EM as well.Quest gear beat current EM DoV raid gear hands down. For example, tank helm gives 65% dps and boots over 29% attack speed.EM instance loot is pretty much the same as contested drops in Skyshrine, which are about 150 main stats and 150 sta with mix of MA/casting and reuse in big amount.HM instance loot is superior to HM DoV vanilla drops and some pieces for certain classe beats HM drunder. For example, mages gloves gives 8.8 potency, 10.8 crit bonus, 35 casting speed, 340 ability modifier and procs 18.9% crit bonus to the caster.As some of you guys and ladies know, there is 2 contested x2 mobs out there in WL atm. Some of my friends smacked the raptor today and he droped leather healer shoulders which were pretty awesome. 210 wis 180 sta, 45 MA, 38 casting..... 2 whites slots +1 redLike I previously said, I already tanked groups zones in EM/HM and I can say HM mobs hits like trucks.....200k+ lol, so I personally think new gear even if have no class focus gives you the required amount of hp to survive there.</blockquote>Thank you. That's pretty much the info I was wondering about since I do raid (EM/HM).If I understand correctly, the Drunder and Kraytoc EM/HM gear won't survive the Skyshrine raid zones, you need the quested gear for a leg up in there? Heh, sounds like a way to get raiders who don't like to quest to do so has been found. I'd have quested anyways, I like quests, but I'm in the rarity of raiders.But again, thank you for this information. It clarifies much.

Starack

03-17-2012, 04:31 PM

I really don't know why people act all upset over this every time it happens now. It has been the model SoE has been using since the advent of Kunark for sure, it was in its infancy with EoF. There is basically four years of expansions and game updates where a new set of zones or tier within a tier has come out to create new progression, and yet it seems to cause the same complaints every time, and yet here you are still paying and playing. It is annoying to see stuff nerfed so much in the game post live launch, but eh... why would they change what they been doing for half a decade now. Yes its a bit silly they make entire zones and tiers of content junk for min/maxers overnight but really that's a min/maxers problem for playing in a stupid way and yes its stupid you basically encourage the devs to build overly high barriers that other people can not normally cross simply because they do not have the resources to get similar people to produce the same results, that isn't game play challenge that's more like social engineering challenge, it is some of the basis of that idiotic gear gating/stat inflation and gear snobism that seems to have grown and grown over the years, nothing is stopping you from just keeping multiple gear sets, nothing is stopping you from doing old content the problem is very much yourself in that context for valuing power of loot over content in the first place, I mean you don't like the content you like the loot from it, which is silly as loot is transient the memories of doing the content if its fun or bad however are not. I think in this case maybe a bunch of people complaining about the progression of gear should form progression loot/level etc locked guilds and stay in them forever so their 'hard earned' loot keeps it value or what ever. On the flip side of this argument the loot constantly being adjusted up and down is also stupid they should just junk all the old stuff and make a new set that is tuned right and is balanced, would make their work load less and might actually make the job easier, go see the lvl 1-90 multiple item revamps if you want to pin your hopes on them getting it right for even one tier with this constant transient combat mechanic system. Basically what ever you pick its a waste of time/resources and everyone wants some quality back sooner rather than later, they have some hard choices here, but in pure logical sense the only stuff the majority of people should be wanting is getting to the point of being able to do PoW and Skyshrine; as Drunder/DoV etc are basically ancient history and have been farmed to death on multiple alts for a lot of people, at least on the EM raid side, time to move on. I got four toons decked out in raid gear and I'm casual and I earned it, if I had bothered to buy stuff am sure that number could have been closer to 10, has no real meaning to me at this point, not so sure why raid loot has any meaning to anyone, sure as hell isn't meant to have meaning looking at how SoE has chosen to manage the loot system of the game over the course of its life, beyond the basic it needs to enable you to do the content at specific gating points. In any event looks like what 6 tiers of x4 raid gear now in technically one expansion spanning two years, maybe it will be seven or eight before we are done? Stuff is gonna have to be junked if there is going to be meaningful progression of loot. If there is another expansion for EQ2 are the same group of people going to cry that all their gear is going to be replaced again, why does it matter if its from solo/group or raid. It's all transient enabler stuff here today gone tomorrow. Pretty much all pugs for base DoV and fairly large extent Drunder/EoW are dead or dying, x2 raids are usually selling loot runs, and increasingly x4 em raids are going the same way, there are even PuR x4 SLR runs, DoV/Drunder below HM is pretty much junk/done already. Would you prefer SoE to mail you a replacement gear crate for each mechanic/game update so you don't HAVE to do solo quests or group content if your sole interest is raiding only?

retro_guy

03-17-2012, 04:58 PM

The gear progression in EQ2 really is a MMO dinosaur.There must be a better mechanic to make newer gear desirable while keeping lower tier gear also useful. If the easiest quest or the next tier now gives better rewards than the hardest raid or the previous tier then there is a real issue.

IvyBlackrose

03-17-2012, 09:37 PM

actually those of you blaming soe for this model and design need to look around.....ALL games have this form of progression.....its called a skinners box im not gonna explain it if your curious look it up but basically MMORPG's are skinner boxes the whole object of the game is to keep the players punching the lever to get their gear

Loco_kano

03-17-2012, 09:42 PM

Kudo's Starack!!!! Very good post. The problem we most dont see on progression is we have a year old expansion that the vast majority of non raid players have only seen 40% of. We have too many elitist on this board that think their time is worth more than others on a game. I myself will not be getting this new set of armor and hitting the raid zones, but rather going back with guildies and doing zones we cant do now. There is not enough people anymore to keep funneling through raid progression. My server has declined in population dramatically since FTP, not increased. Right now DoV has killed pug groups, you cant dump 5 classes together witha healer and go kill something, which is sad because thats when people have fun.

Darkholis

03-17-2012, 10:31 PM

<cite>Loco_kano wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem we most dont see on progression is we have a year old expansion that the vast majority of non raid players have only seen 40% of. We have too many elitist on this board that think their time is worth more than others on a game.</blockquote>I 100% agree with you that there is way too much elitist or at least, GM pay them too much attention....but that's another debate.I personally loved RoK (played EQ1 for 12 years, loved VP of old days) and SF xpac but even if I wanted to stick here, it was impossbile because most people care about their personnal/guild ranking which is np but makes it impossible for progression guilds. That and also the fact that SoE had the idea to redo ALL items to meet DoV stats which I personally think is the worst xpac/stats system since I'm playing EQ2. That being said, it's now impossible to really do progression guild with old school gear because it's now either OP or crapier than before. As an example, some SF pieces lost crit mit which is the main stat of SF lol.....Enough said for my personnal point of view, to come back on the subject, I did killed Honvar with a PuR today...he dropped chain healer legs, 2 whites slots + 1 red, 180 wis, 180 sta, 56 dps, 27 spell MA, 11 crit bonus, about 9 potency...Big points to remember:1-Honvar drop 1 leg per kill2-Raptor (kodgar or whatever) drop 1 shoulder per kill3-both are on 18 hours timers

Gargamel

03-18-2012, 04:17 AM

Oh jeez, now this is going to become a hard core VS carebare thread....I only asked the question of what is the progression and what is intended, but let the record show that is is YOU part timers that made it about 'elitiest' players.In MMO terms, you just dropped the race card.#1 - Yeah of course gear gets outdated, but usually we can see it coming with an expansion, and a 10 lvl increase. A GU invalidation of gear is a bit of a surprise. Don't give me stupid BS like "skinners box" mr first year psych major. And it did start in RoK but really replacing raid gear with solo gear during a GU and a 2 lvl increase is CERTAINLY not normal.#2 - I don't see what is 'elitist' about people thinking that an investment of 24 people for 3hrs a day, 3 days a week, for 2 years - should be worth more than talking to an NPC as a solo character in 3 seconds after a GU, just becuase its new.Honestly I don't see the reason for invalidating all of the old content. 2 more lvls should make that stuff easier to run, and the logic is simple. Solo DoV is upgraded by Solo GU63.Heroic DoV is upgraded by Heroic Drunder which is upgraded by Heroic GU63.EZ Raid DoV is upgraded by EZ Raid Drunder is upgraded by EZ Raid GU63. HM DoV is upgraded by HM Drunder is upgraded by HM GU63, is upgraded by PoW.As it stands now, anyone that runs any raids that are not HM drunder before the update are suckers. If your guild is running EZ mode raids of any kind, you WILL be upgrading your gear with your initial solo run through GU63. If you are working on DoV HM zones, you will only be helping your heroic and EZ gu63 raids be a bit easier until you can farm them.Stated earlier, but I think its very important: after the inital change, will we be stuck running the same 2 zones for a year because the 'top tier' raid contet is now down to a single zone.

Avirodar

03-18-2012, 08:57 AM

<cite>Gargamel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh jeez, now this is going to become a hard core VS carebare thread....I only asked the question of what is the progression and what is intended, but let the record show that is is YOU part timers that made it about 'elitiest' players.In MMO terms, you just dropped the race card.#1 - Yeah of course gear gets outdated, but usually we can see it coming with an expansion, and a 10 lvl increase. A GU invalidation of gear is a bit of a surprise. Don't give me stupid BS like "skinners box" mr first year psych major. And it did start in RoK but really replacing raid gear with solo gear during a GU and a 2 lvl increase is CERTAINLY not normal.#2 - I don't see what is 'elitist' about people thinking that an investment of 24 people for 3hrs a day, 3 days a week, for 2 years - should be worth more than talking to an NPC as a solo character in 3 seconds after a GU, just becuase its new.Honestly I don't see the reason for invalidating all of the old content. 2 more lvls should make that stuff easier to run, and the logic is simple. Solo DoV is upgraded by Solo GU63.Heroic DoV is upgraded by Heroic Drunder which is upgraded by Heroic GU63.EZ Raid DoV is upgraded by EZ Raid Drunder is upgraded by EZ Raid GU63. HM DoV is upgraded by HM Drunder is upgraded by HM GU63, is upgraded by PoW.As it stands now, anyone that runs any raids that are not HM drunder before the update are suckers. If your guild is running EZ mode raids of any kind, you WILL be upgrading your gear with your initial solo run through GU63. If you are working on DoV HM zones, you will only be helping your heroic and EZ gu63 raids be a bit easier until you can farm them.Stated earlier, but I think its very important: after the inital change, will we be stuck running the same 2 zones for a year because the 'top tier' raid contet is now down to a single zone.</blockquote>You mis-applied the use of "part-timers", should have stuck with carebears, but you otherwise you nailed it. The carebears have convinced themselves that the "feat" of logging a character into EQ2, entitles them to the same loot as those who posess superior skill and ability.If SOE renders current loot obsolete with DoV pt2, I am concerned that the retention rate of subscribers will continue to slide. I hope the transition is more KOS->EOF style, than it was SF->DoVpt1 style.

Chronus1

03-18-2012, 10:29 AM

Totally agree that making all raid gear outside of hardmode drunder or a few specific jewelery pieces is a bit stupid however it isn't quite as bad as it could be (potency and crit bonus values are typically very poor).However raiding 11 hours a week to see stuff virtually blown out of the water by gear from a solo quest or even a contested heroic trash drop is just demoralizing and heck, maybe people won't join a struggling raid guild and that guild will collapse and a few of the people in tha guild will quit, ultimately because of stuff like this.And seeing current content wittled down to just a few zones rather than the plethora of current zones means less worthwhile content in the game at the same time, surely more content is better?

Kizee

03-18-2012, 01:33 PM

<cite>Chronus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Totally agree that making all raid gear outside of hardmode drunder or a few specific jewelery pieces is a bit stupid however it isn't quite as bad as it could be (potency and crit bonus values are typically very poor).However raiding 11 hours a week to see stuff virtually blown out of the water by gear from a solo quest or even a contested heroic trash drop is just demoralizing and heck, maybe people won't join a struggling raid guild and that guild will collapse and a few of the people in tha guild will quit, ultimately because of stuff like this.And seeing current content wittled down to just a few zones rather than the plethora of current zones means less worthwhile content in the game at the same time, surely more content is better?</blockquote>I can speak for myself when i say that I don't have any drive to log in anymore.The solo quest gear is better than anything I have equipped and what my guild is killing ATM so I will need to trash everything I have for solo quest rewards and heroic gear to get into raiding again. (I hate questing and I will not do that again since I had to suffer though the faction grind in DOV1)I understand that this is how these games work however SoE always pushes the slider too far ahead. It will compound even more because by making the gear so good they just made most of the raid instances, that people are working on, obsolete. That in turn will make people burn out faster instead of working thier way though the content and just skip to the few raid instances that they are adding this GU.IDK... i will stick around to see how it pans out but I am not being very optimistic considering what SoE has done in the past.

Darkholis

03-18-2012, 02:04 PM

<cite>Gargamel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo DoV is upgraded by Solo GU63.Heroic DoV is upgraded by Heroic Drunder which is upgraded by Heroic GU63.EZ Raid DoV is upgraded by EZ Raid Drunder is upgraded by EZ Raid GU63. HM DoV is upgraded by HM Drunder is upgraded by HM GU63, is upgraded by PoW.</blockquote>Lol, you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about. Save yourself time and stop here.Here's the copy of my first post after a talk with a dev about gear progression.1- EM/HM DoV vanilla will be boosted a bit to be in line with new quest gear stats.2- EM/HM DoV vanilla gear is expected to be used for instances ONLY not for raiding purposes.3- ALL DoV current raid gear (vanilla + drunder) stats are not in line with new raid progression.EM/HM vaninlla and EM drunder gear is trashed by contested legendary drop atm. I have a HM inquis in my group for instances I run and he already replaced his HM drunder gloves/boots by HM instance one because they blow drunder ones.New raid gear destroy PoW stuff and no guild in the entire planet is not even killing a single named in PoW anyways. Mage gloves from contested skyshrine blow PoW ones by far. Btw, you need 390+ crit chance to touch new raid mobs.

Chronus1

03-18-2012, 06:45 PM

Actually 2 guilds are killing one named, 1 guild killing 2 named in PoW (which you need 400+ for). However due to SoE screwing up and accidentally putting the yellow slots on the easy mode loot rather than the hardmode loot and putting the yellow slotted gear in the hardmode loot tables to make the gear appaling for what it takes to get means they'll still upgrade loads of their stuff in these new instances.

SeregWethrin

03-18-2012, 08:56 PM

There is actually A reason for this, its done in every mmorpg when an expansion is released. The goal is that having the 6man gear better than the top end raiding gear is to give a true sense of progression and it also lets casual players who were never able to go back and be able experience the old content if they want. The x4 content from skyshrine is still going to be much better than the instance gear just like it is now. If you can jump straight into raiding from your old raid gear there is no progression through the content you just jump straight to the raiding game.

Luterin

03-18-2012, 09:06 PM

<cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is actually A reason for this, its done in every mmorpg when an expansion is released. The goal is that having the 6man gear better than the top end raiding gear is to give a true sense of progression and it also lets casual players who were never able to go back and be able experience the old content if they want. The x4 content from skyshrine is still going to be much better than the instance gear just like it is now. If you can jump straight into raiding from your old raid gear there is no progression through the content you just jump straight to the raiding game.</blockquote>Yet once more, this is NOT an expansion. This is a GU with ONE zoned and a few instances that is replacing everything before it.If this was an expansion it would have been ok, because then there would have been A LOT of new content, now it's just very little content, and still they are making all of the old stuff obsolete!

SeregWethrin

03-20-2012, 03:35 AM

<cite>Luterin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is actually A reason for this, its done in every mmorpg when an expansion is released. The goal is that having the 6man gear better than the top end raiding gear is to give a true sense of progression and it also lets casual players who were never able to go back and be able experience the old content if they want. The x4 content from skyshrine is still going to be much better than the instance gear just like it is now. If you can jump straight into raiding from your old raid gear there is no progression through the content you just jump straight to the raiding game.</blockquote>Yet once more, this is NOT an expansion. This is a GU with ONE zoned and a few instances that is replacing everything before it.If this was an expansion it would have been ok, because then there would have been A LOT of new content, now it's just very little content, and still they are making all of the old stuff obsolete!</blockquote> There will not be any more expansions that raise the level cap or add new zones. They have said that in the new free to play model content and levels are all going to be in LU form from now on with expansions being optional content more along the lines of AoD rather than like DoV.

Banditman

03-20-2012, 10:50 AM

Darkholis

03-20-2012, 11:48 AM

Well, I know GM says a lot and not necesserly do what they says but that's what Gninja told me in tells and after doing most instances already and 2 of them HM, I can say for sure that the HM loot from instance blow HM drunder. I'm sorry for the shocking new.

retro_guy

03-21-2012, 06:18 AM

<cite>IvyBlackrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>actually those of you blaming soe for this model and design need to look around.....ALL games have this form of progression.....its called a skinners box im not gonna explain it if your curious look it up but basically MMORPG's are skinner boxes the whole object of the game is to keep the players punching the lever to get their gear</blockquote>But they don't have to be designed that way. The fact that all game have the same form of progression opens up the possibility for a game to create a whole new way of progression that nobody has! It's a huge opportunity.If I had my way there would be no levels either, just because everyone else does it a certain way doesn't make it good or the way it must be done.But I do get your reference to Skinner Boxes, scary really!

Barx

03-21-2012, 12:53 PM

<cite>Darkholis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol, you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about. Save yourself time and stop here.Here's the copy of my first post after a talk with a dev about gear progression.1- EM/HM DoV vanilla will be boosted a bit to be in line with new quest gear stats.2- EM/HM DoV vanilla gear is expected to be used for instances ONLY not for raiding purposes.3- ALL DoV current raid gear (vanilla + drunder) stats are not in line with new raid progression.EM/HM vaninlla and EM drunder gear is trashed by contested legendary drop atm. I have a HM inquis in my group for instances I run and he already replaced his HM drunder gloves/boots by HM instance one because they blow drunder ones.New raid gear destroy PoW stuff and no guild in the entire planet is not even killing a single named in PoW anyways. Mage gloves from contested skyshrine blow PoW ones by far. Btw, you need 390+ crit chance to touch new raid mobs.</blockquote>If that's seriously what they're planning, then it's pure idiocy.Let's make all the old hard to get gear (some of which no one has yet cleared) useless and boost all the easy-to-get and crafted gear!Now if they wanted to wipe out EM DoV (not EM Drunder) loot by making that level the new heroic/quest type gear it'd be different. But wiping out the entire previous expansion worth would take SOE stupidity to new levels.

1rocketjones

03-21-2012, 03:27 PM

vanilla=?

Banditman

03-21-2012, 03:38 PM

Something like this perhaps: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY" target="_blank">These go to 11</a>

Darkholis

03-21-2012, 03:53 PM

<cite>1rocketjones wrote:</cite><blockquote>vanilla=?</blockquote>Vanilla is the term we're using refering to original instances found in an xpac. For DoV, those zones are Kraytoc's Fortress of Rime, Throne of Storms: Halls of legend and Temple of Rallos Zek: Foundations of stone.

Troy

03-21-2012, 04:03 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leovinus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, that will only work if they make sure that Drunder x4 HM and the other stuff you mentioned are balanced such that they are accessible by a larger portion of the population. Maybe 2 extra levels and this prestige stuff will do that, but maybe not. All I can say for sure is that SOE has a pretty serious balancing job to do, and we'll see how it comes out. I don't envy them that, because no matter how they do it, even if it's the best way possible for the game, a large percentage of people will be very upset.</blockquote>Well,Looking through what the Prestige abilities do thus far (not even taking into account the endlines that are to be added yet) I think that they will definitely help open up current raid content to more guilds. There is a pretty large DPS increase (raid wide) that will be associated with all these abilities, and that in and of itself makes content easier since there are several DPS checks on lots of the encounters, not to mention damage reduction abilites for tanks/healers will greatly increase survivability.</blockquote>Whether guild which are unable to raid Drunder or Drunder HM now will be able too after GU63 is live due to +2 levels and perstige abilities is NOT the point. The point is whether or not the new overland quest gear or new solo/heroic zones make Drunder and Druner HM a total waste of time.If guild that can't do drunder now level up and get thier prestige abilities and get the gear reset done in WL and Sky Heroics yet will have more tools to run the drunder and drunder HM, but if the drunder gear is sub-par .. who will bother. thus removing nearly 20 zone instances from the level cap of content that is revelant.</blockquote>That is what EQ2 has always been about.Drunder might very well fall like the games predecessor - the SF raid zones, that overshaddowed the shard/TSO armor, that replaced the KoS armor, etc.

Geothe

03-21-2012, 04:11 PM

<cite>Troy wrote:</cite><blockquote>.Drunder might very well fall like the games predecessor - the SF raid zones, that overshaddowed the shard/TSO armor, that replaced the KoS armor, etc.</blockquote>Those were EXPANSIONS adding entire sets of zones (many raid zones, 10+ group instances).GU63 is adding what, 1 raid zone? and a couple of group instances?You're moronic if you think that amount of content will sustain a player base.GU63 needs to be a clear, linear progression and extension of the current DoV and Drunder raid zones, in difficulty as well as loot quality.

Darkholis

03-21-2012, 04:16 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>GU63 is adding what, 1 raid zone? and a couple of group instances?</blockquote>So far, there is 4 group zones which are Covenant District, Lyceum something, Dracur Prime and UnderdepthsThere is 2 confirmed x4 raid zones atm which are Betrayal in the Underdepths and Dracur Prime something.There is a rumor for a third x4 zone as well as a x2 based on Covenant District.

SeregWethrin

03-21-2012, 05:24 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Troy wrote:</cite><blockquote>.Drunder might very well fall like the games predecessor - the SF raid zones, that overshaddowed the shard/TSO armor, that replaced the KoS armor, etc.</blockquote>Those were EXPANSIONS adding entire sets of zones (many raid zones, 10+ group instances).GU63 is adding what, 1 raid zone? and a couple of group instances?You're moronic if you think that amount of content will sustain a player base.GU63 needs to be a clear, linear progression and extension of the current DoV and Drunder raid zones, in difficulty as well as loot quality.</blockquote>GU63 is really an expansion with an entire new tier of content, they said back when they switched to the free to play model that new content and levels will be in GU form while new expansions will be along the line of AoD where they contain optional stuff and not progression content.I would expect thats the reason for doing less GU's a year is each one now is probably going to contain new progression instances.

Yimway

03-21-2012, 05:27 PM

Banditman

03-21-2012, 05:28 PM

<cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>GU63 is really an expansion with an entire new tier of content, they said back when they switched to the free to play model that new content and levels will be in GU form while new expansions will be along the line of AoD where they contain optional stuff and not progression content.I would expect thats the reason for doing less GU's a year is each one now is probably going to contain new progression instances.</blockquote>Oh no you di'nt.An "expansion" is more than 2 raid zones, 4 heroic zones and one overland zone. WAY more. What EVER gave you the idea this was in any way an expansion?Go back again and look at what each real expansion added and I think you'll find that this LU doesn't even come close. Sadly, this LU does add more content than our last "expansion".

Koleg

03-21-2012, 06:43 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SeregWethrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>GU63 is really an expansion with an entire new tier of content, they said back when they switched to the free to play model that new content and levels will be in GU form while new expansions will be along the line of AoD where they contain optional stuff and not progression content.I would expect thats the reason for doing less GU's a year is each one now is probably going to contain new progression instances.</blockquote>Oh no you di'nt.An "expansion" is more than 2 raid zones, 4 heroic zones and one overland zone. WAY more. What EVER gave you the idea this was in any way an expansion?Go back again and look at what each real expansion added and I think you'll find that this LU doesn't even come close. Sadly, this LU does add more content than our last "expansion".</blockquote>We pay for "Expansions" .... this is a GU, but in this case it only "looks" like an expansion becasue they are making all other content iirevelant. The problem is simply the GU is too small for it to destroy the only reason to use the older content.

Wilin

03-21-2012, 06:47 PM

I wouldn't be worried about the progression if HM drunder wasn't just put on farm status 3 months ago and only by the top guilds. It was only completely cleared by a handful of guilds 6 weeks ago or later. It's not like previous expansions where the top end was on farm status for half a year or more before an expansion threw things into disarray. And, hm drunder was only cleared after the tougher fights were nerfed. How long has PoW been open...I've been raiding DoV since it was released, am no where near a full set of HM drunder, and I'll be upgrading that gear on Day 1 of Skyshrine from heroic quests...

Shotneedle

03-21-2012, 07:31 PM

I didn't see any scout gear that I'd upgrade any of my items to from hm drunder gear. Won't surprise me when skyshrine gear destroys plane of war gear.And to the guy talking about Plane of War, we're killing two named in there. And trash requires 375 cc, first named requires 408 cc, and at least two of the other named require 425+ cc.

Vlahkmaak

03-22-2012, 04:23 AM

The appropriate term is DoV launch. Please stop using the WoWified term "vanilla" with anything related to EQ.

The_Cheeseman

03-22-2012, 06:01 AM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The appropriate term is DoV launch. Please stop using the WoWified term "vanilla" with anything related to EQ. </blockquote>I fail to see how the term "vanilla"--which is often used to mean "ordinary or conventional" in many contexts--has anything to do with World of Warcraft.

DamselInDistress

03-22-2012, 08:48 AM

<cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite><blockquote>So we can basically take a break from HM raiding until ~April 17, when the rewards from our previous year of raiding have been rendered obsolete by overland quest rewards?Great idea! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>makes you wonder what is the point of raiding at all ...

Yimway

03-22-2012, 12:29 PM

Koleg

03-22-2012, 04:17 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The appropriate term is DoV launch. Please stop using the WoWified term "vanilla" with anything related to EQ. </blockquote>I fail to see how the term "vanilla"--which is often used to mean "ordinary or conventional" in many contexts--has anything to do with World of Warcraft.</blockquote>Vanilla is a term used in WOW much the same as EQ2 used the word Launch. It is the game environment prior to Nerfs/Addons/Buffs/Reitemization/updates. WOW-Vanilla makes reference to the condition of the game at launch, ie. "I use to play a Hunter in WOW-Vanilla back when Spirt Bond actually made Hunters quite unkillable."DOV-Launch would be synonymous with DOV-vanilla ... when PQ gear had more CM and casting speed than raid gear and Ry'Gorr gear requires hundreds of PVS's to craft a set.

Darkholis

03-22-2012, 04:59 PM

The_Cheeseman

03-22-2012, 05:22 PM

<cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The appropriate term is DoV launch. Please stop using the WoWified term "vanilla" with anything related to EQ. </blockquote>I fail to see how the term "vanilla"--which is often used to mean "ordinary or conventional" in many contexts--has anything to do with World of Warcraft.</blockquote>Vanilla is a term used in WOW much the same as EQ2 used the word Launch. It is the game environment prior to Nerfs/Addons/Buffs/Reitemization/updates. WOW-Vanilla makes reference to the condition of the game at launch, ie. "I use to play a Hunter in WOW-Vanilla back when Spirt Bond actually made Hunters quite unkillable."DOV-Launch would be synonymous with DOV-vanilla ... when PQ gear had more CM and casting speed than raid gear and Ry'Gorr gear requires hundreds of PVS's to craft a set.</blockquote>That's pretty much exactly what I assumed it meant, though I was unaware the term was also used in WoW. So basically Vlahkmaak has some irrational hatred for WoW and would like to censor perfectly normal words being used in ways people generally understand, simply because it reminds him of WoW. I think I will choose to disregard his advice.Please understand, Vlahkmaak, that gaming jargon is not limited to one game or another. Language is fluid and ever-evolving, and I don't think you'll earn much popularity by demanding that people not use perfectly normal terms just because you don't like their connection to a particular title. I have never played WoW, I have been playing EQ/EQ2 since Jan. 2000, and I had no trouble inferring the meaning of "DoV-vanilla" in the context of this discussion. Perhaps your disdain for WoW isn't particularly healthy or relevant to this discussion?

Caster_III

03-24-2012, 01:27 AM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The appropriate term is DoV launch. Please stop using the WoWified term "vanilla" with anything related to EQ. </blockquote>The term "plain vanilla" or just "vanilla" has been used for many years prior to online gaming even being invented. It commonly means the basic standard version of just about anything, from automobiles to dress shirts and everything in between. Some version of WoW may also be referred to as vanilla, but the term definitely didn't originate there.Sentient life predates the arrival of both WoW and EQ1/EQ2.

Tigerr

03-28-2012, 08:24 PM

This thread needs a bump, devs need to look into these issues... Better gear will not help those that think they will be able to grab this quest gear and start doing drunder HM.... Once again, all this is doing is making content obsolete, I promise you, with this gear, none of the people that are complaining about not being able to do anything will stop, there will be more complaints for nerfs. Take a look at this gear, it is wayyy out of line, DoV2 is a continuation, not an expansion where you can render all past content useless. So the people that begin playing around GU63 will get all the gear and then complain that there is not enough content to play in as they will be limited to Skyshrine + Withered Lands. Let people start in DoV1 and work their way up. Once again, this gear is WAY out of line. Please take a look at it

Leawyn

03-28-2012, 08:30 PM

<cite>Caster_III wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The appropriate term is DoV launch. Please stop using the WoWified term "vanilla" with anything related to EQ. </blockquote>The term "plain vanilla" or just "vanilla" has been used for many years prior to online gaming even being invented. It commonly means the basic standard version of just about anything, from automobiles to dress shirts and everything in between. Some version of WoW may also be referred to as vanilla, but the term definitely didn't originate there.Sentient life predates the arrival of both WoW and EQ1/EQ2.</blockquote>WOW invented the internet.

yohann koldheart

03-28-2012, 09:15 PM

<cite>DamselInDistress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite><blockquote>So we can basically take a break from HM raiding until ~April 17, when the rewards from our previous year of raiding have been rendered obsolete by overland quest rewards?Great idea! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>makes you wonder what is the point of raiding at all ...</blockquote>the thing that will still make dov hm gear better then the few good overland quest peices are the adorn slots.

Gargamel

03-31-2012, 03:15 AM

After looking at the loot in the GU (solo and a bit of heroic) I do think that there is not a complete upgrade in the non-raid zones for HM drunder pre-raid GU63.Yeah there is the basic exchange of red slot adorn, for superious agi/sta (or whatever primary combo for your class) and better multi attack, etcBut I think I can say pretty fairly that there will be a complete replacement for most/all of ez mode raid gear (including drunder) if you run the solo path, and a few group zones the first week.Personally being in a guild that just cleared EZ drunder a month or two back, and having a dozen HM Vanilla down, I just feel we're getting the rawest end of this deal.If you didn't kill any ez mode, you win big and save months of gearing up.If you are clearing hm and better yet hm drunder, you are getting an easier intro to gu 63 raids for your time at least.If you are clearing/gearing em and working on hm, you get screwed from both angels the way the loot seems atm.So yeah, selfishly speaking, I'm just hoping the red adorns stay relevant compared to the base stat inflation on the solo gear with the gu. I fear that compared to the (now more necessary sta, and other base stats) the importance of a red adorn on gear will be left to decay like many class specific buffs in the past.Thats all aside from the fact that nobody will do DoV ez mode raid anything after the gu. Progression will be gu63 solo, gu63 heroic, specific dov hm, dov drunder, gu63 ez... (depending on how hard gu63 raids are)