Problem Created by Removing Critical Mitigation Outlined [Archive]

Mogrim

02-03-2012, 04:14 PM

Let me define how a fight would have worked on the old mechanic and on the new mechanic in generic terms. Old Mechanics:Given: There is a mob which has a strong AOE that hits on average 3 times per minute. The mob has a total of 150 Crit BonusGiven: There are two different guilds trying to kill this mob. Given: Guild A has all their members geared to 151 Crit Mit. Given: Guild B has none of their members geared to even 50 Crit Mit.Given: (Stretch) Equal Skill Between Guilds A and BResults for Guild A: Mob crits 0% against Guild A. The aoes are survived and the mob is killed. Results for Guild B: Mob crits 100% against Guild B. The aoes flatten the raid instantly and recovery is practically impossible. New MechanicsGiven: There is a mob which has a strong AOE that hits on average 3 times per minute. The mob has no innate Crit Bonus, but still their innate chance to crit. Given: There are two different guilds trying to kill this mob. Given: Guild A has all their members geared with what used to be at least 151 Crit Mit quality gear. They have 0 Crit Mit. Given: Guild B has all their members geared with the same significantly inferior gear described above. They have 0 Crit Mit.Given: (Stretch) Equal Skill Between Guilds A and BResults for Guild A: Mob crits 30% against Guild A. The random critting of aoes result in significantly more deaths for the guild who had put in enough work to obtain gear good enough to previously trivialize the fight.Results for Guild B: Mob crits 30% against Guild B. The random critting of aoes kill only slightly more guildies due to lower MAX HP but makes the fight considerably easier (especially since it would've been impossible before) for a guild that previously had not put in enough work to obtain gear to handle the fight.As the current mechanics work on test, the removal of Crit Mit is a NERF to the guilds who have put in the work. Because mobs now have an unchecked "innate crit chance", even without crit bonus, incoming damage is going to spike against guilds who were getting critted 0% in the past.Fix this, or be ready to watch an exodus.

Mogrim

02-03-2012, 04:29 PM

Second Example:A Group of Semi-Casuals just got their Crit Mit high enough to be able to start completing the Drunder Group Zones without being critted.Now they're critted 30% of the time and wipe a lot in the zones. This will be a problem for casuals too.

Arbreth

02-03-2012, 04:51 PM

Something is not adding up here.If Guild A had such better gear before, why would their deaths be 'significantly' higher? The gear is already better than B's. Also, for a Drunder zone, unless B was going in wearing their underwear they would have at least 50 of CM even from non fabled stuff. Not even going to bother wondering about Guild A.Mind that crit mit had been removed from the 'lesser' zones months ago.Yes, Guild A should have to work a bit harder, that is expected until they relearn the strat. Guild B will still have to work hard, but it will not become 'easy'.Did you test this, or hypothesis it?Where are the real numbers?

Mogrim

02-03-2012, 05:10 PM

If Guild A had such better gear before, why would their deaths be 'significantly' higher?Because they're going to go from being crit 0% of the time to 30% of the time due to everyone being set to 0 Crit Mit while Mobs have innate crit chance. The gear is already better than B's. Also, for a Drunder zone, unless B was going in wearing their underwear they would have at least 50 of CM even from non fabled stuff. Not even going to bother wondering about Guild A.Yes. But lets say you had 150 Crit Mit quality gear and I had 250 Crit Mit quality gear. Lets say that was just enough for you to avoid being critted in the old drunger group zone and I had WAY more than enough. NOW, you and I both get critted 30%. I'll probably be able to compensate for it with my superior gear, but now the zone just got a TON harder for you. Mind that crit mit had been removed from the 'lesser' zones months ago.Yes, but mobs in these zones never gave up their "30% crit chance" innate ability. It was just that everyone that went into the lesser zones had over 30 Crit Mit so they were never critted. Yes, Guild A should have to work a bit harder, that is expected until they relearn the strat. Guild B will still have to work hard, but it will not become 'easy'.Previously gear-blocked impossible fights become technically possible for Guild B. I'm cool with that. Previously gear-enabled fights (where mobs were critting LESS than 30%) become harder for both guilds. I'm not keen on that.Did you test this, or hypothesis it? Where are the real numbers?Both. Slippery has started posting some of the changes in what is happening on Test compared to Live. It isn't pretty. His numbers are reliable.

Yimway

02-03-2012, 05:11 PM

Guild A has signifcantly more STA cause they have significantly better gear.Guild A still wins.

Yimway

02-03-2012, 05:12 PM

<cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite><blockquote> Did you test this, or hypothesis it? Where are the real numbers?Both. Slippery has started posting some of the changes in what is happening on Test compared to Live. It isn't pretty. His numbers are reliable. </blockquote>What currently is on test is clearly broken.

Mogrim

02-03-2012, 05:13 PM

If what is posted on test is what is INTENDED then yes, Guild A likely still wins, but some of the fights they just barely progressed to might fall off their "killable" list until they get enough better to compensate from being "freshly critted".

lazlo1

02-03-2012, 05:25 PM

This is on TEST correct? Lets wait and see a bit before we hit the freak out button. This is most likely a bug, and real real real poor QA.

Kizee

02-03-2012, 05:31 PM

<cite>Nazon@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is on TEST correct? Lets wait and see a bit before we hit the freak out button. This is most likely a bug, and real real real poor QA.</blockquote>You are new here aren't you? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Trynt

02-03-2012, 05:32 PM

<cite>Nazon@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is most likely a bug, and real real real poor QA.</blockquote>Agreed. Expect it to be patched live unchanged on Tuesday as a result.

thewarriorpoet

02-03-2012, 05:36 PM

n/m

Skandragon

02-03-2012, 05:56 PM

In a Kael raid zone, I let a trash mob beat up on me for a few hits. 7 to be exact. 6 were "critically hits" and one was "hits."6/7 == 85% crit chance. Small sample to be sure, but it's there.I did however live through it enough to get hit 7 times without a healer...In a second test (same zone and target) I got 20/30 or about a 66% crit rate. This time I had my inq merc out and actually tried to live long enough to get a better sample.

Felshades

02-03-2012, 08:34 PM

Anastasie

02-03-2012, 08:46 PM

I really hope they fix this to remove their innate crit like it was stated would happen. If not, non shaman healers will be screwed with the harder hitting ae's.

Jaxl

02-04-2012, 01:14 AM

<cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite><blockquote> If Guild A had such better gear before, why would their deaths be 'significantly' higher?Because they're going to go from being crit 0% of the time to 30% of the time due to everyone being set to 0 Crit Mit while Mobs have innate crit chance. </blockquote>I don't understand why Guild A would see new crits they didn't see before. Crit Mit did not debuff the mobs chance to crit, it reduced the mob's crit bonus. The mob before the change would crit, but since they had enough CM, it didn't have any bonus so they were able to live. Afterwards, the mob still crits just like before, but instead of mitigating the crit bonus, its simply not there anymore..Am I missing something here?

Mogrim

02-04-2012, 02:31 AM

From another thread:<cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am seeing a number of people in this thread that do NOT understand one of the most subtle aspects of crits and crit mitigation currently in the game. While it isn't documented much of anywhere, through large amounts of testing, I myself, and others who have done similar testing have learned that mobs do not get minimum crit of max damage +1, if you have critical mitigation covering up at least part of the innate bonus. So if a mob has innate + 1 percent buff package critical bonus, they get the base max damage + 1 calculation. If a mob has innate - 1 critical mitigation they lose their max damage + 1 calculation. Also something registers as a critical the instant it hits max damage +1 or more. This is all to say that, leaving mob criticals in the game without critical mitigation is an absolutely MASSIVE buff to mobs, and a huge nerf to players. I am completely for removing critical mitigation from the game, but at the same time, the devs needs to completely remove mob criticals from the game as well.</blockquote>

LardLord

02-04-2012, 04:43 AM

Thankfully, there's much more to gear progression than crit mit. In fact, crit mit progression has been rendered virtually meaningless for guilds in Drunder HM, since all Drunder HM mobs have the same crit mit/avoidance buffs.EDIT: Nevermind, looks like I misunderstood the complaint.

Vidar64

02-04-2012, 08:08 AM

<cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite><blockquote>From another thread:<cite>Hennyo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am seeing a number of people in this thread that do NOT understand one of the most subtle aspects of crits and crit mitigation currently in the game. While it isn't documented much of anywhere, through large amounts of testing, I myself, and others who have done similar testing have learned that mobs do not get minimum crit of max damage +1, if you have critical mitigation covering up at least part of the innate bonus. So if a mob has innate + 1 percent buff package critical bonus, they get the base max damage + 1 calculation. If a mob has innate - 1 critical mitigation they lose their max damage + 1 calculation. Also something registers as a critical the instant it hits max damage +1 or more. This is all to say that, leaving mob criticals in the game without critical mitigation is an absolutely MASSIVE buff to mobs, and a huge nerf to players. I am completely for removing critical mitigation from the game, but at the same time, the devs needs to completely remove mob criticals from the game as well.</blockquote></blockquote>There is a fairly easy solution. Just leave the gear in the game as is (with the current crit mit stats) while still setting the mob's crit bonuses to zero. The first 30 crit mit or so on the current gear should deal with the mob's inate crit chance. As long as the SOE team is willing to see no crits from mobs as part of their vision, this deals with communitie's complaints with minimum effort.

Bodiddle

02-05-2012, 05:06 AM

<cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me define how a fight would have worked on the old mechanic and on the new mechanic in generic terms. Old Mechanics:Given: There is a mob which has a strong AOE that hits on average 3 times per minute. The mob has a total of 150 Crit BonusGiven: There are two different guilds trying to kill this mob. Given: Guild A has all their members geared to 151 Crit Mit. Given: Guild B has none of their members geared to even 50 Crit Mit.Given: (Stretch) Equal Skill Between Guilds A and BResults for Guild A: Mob crits 0% against Guild A. The aoes are survived and the mob is killed. Results for Guild B: Mob crits 100% against Guild B. The aoes flatten the raid instantly and recovery is practically impossible. New MechanicsGiven: There is a mob which has a strong AOE that hits on average 3 times per minute. The mob has no innate Crit Bonus, but still their innate chance to crit. Given: There are two different guilds trying to kill this mob. Given: Guild A has all their members geared with what used to be at least 151 Crit Mit quality gear. They have 0 Crit Mit. Given: Guild B has all their members geared with the same significantly inferior gear described above. They have 0 Crit Mit.Given: (Stretch) Equal Skill Between Guilds A and BResults for Guild A: Mob crits 30% against Guild A. The random critting of aoes result in significantly more deaths for the guild who had put in enough work to obtain gear good enough to previously trivialize the fight.Results for Guild B: Mob crits 30% against Guild B. The random critting of aoes kill only slightly more guildies due to lower MAX HP but makes the fight considerably easier (especially since it would've been impossible before) for a guild that previously had not put in enough work to obtain gear to handle the fight.As the current mechanics work on test, the removal of Crit Mit is a NERF to the guilds who have put in the work. Because mobs now have an unchecked "innate crit chance", even without crit bonus, incoming damage is going to spike against guilds who were getting critted 0% in the past.Fix this, or be ready to watch an exodus.</blockquote>I have to agree that his would hold true if the innate critical bonus is still there, however I think you have made an assumption here. It is a very valid point though and if it holds true will be a problem. But I give the benefit of the doubt here as it is stated the crit bonus will be zero.A partial example from prior update notes for reference, One little detail I would like to add was that innate critical bonus was 50% for mage type mobs, 40% for scouts and 30% for tank types if I remember correctly. Let me know if that is right or wrong I can update post to reflect correct numbers. for correction on innate amounts see next post Partial quote (<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=501392">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=501392</a>)<blockquote>Spire of Rage<ul><li>Updated Crit Bonus / Avoidance: 120% Critical Bonus [90 additional +30 innate] and 110% Critical Avoidance. </li></ul>Strategist’s Stronghold<ul><li>Updated Crit Bonus / Avoidance: 130% Critical Bonus [100 additional +30 innate] and 120% Critical Avoidance.</li></ul>Tower of Tactics<ul><li>Updated Crit Bonus / Avoidance: 140% Critical Bonus [110 additional +30 innate] and 130% Critical Avoidance.</li></ul>Citadel of V’uul<ul><li>Updated Crit Bonus / Avoidance: <ul><li>Boss 1 and Boss 2 - 140% Critical Bonus [110 additional + 30 innate] and 120% Critical Avoidance. </li><li>Boss 3 and Boss 4 - 150% Critical Bonus [120 additional + 30 innate] and 130% Critical Avoidance. </li><li>Boss 5 and Boss 6 - 160% Critical Bonus [130 additional + 30 innate] and 140% Critical Avoidance.</li></ul></li></ul></blockquote>

Ventisly

02-05-2012, 06:53 AM

Crit Mit was to counter the mob's Crit Bonus, not Crit Chance (for those posts that are mixing the two stats incorrectly). What you are most likely seeing on test (something that should have been caught by SOE with even a simple 5 minute test of their own change IMO) is the innate crit bonus numbers that mobs have. In raid zones, melee type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on melee attacks and 30% on spell attacks. Caster type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on spell attacks (AOEs) and 30% on melee attacks.

Avirodar

02-05-2012, 07:28 AM

<cite>Makya@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit Mit was to counter the mob's Crit Bonus, not Crit Chance (for those posts that are mixing the two stats incorrectly). What you are most likely seeing on test (something that should have been caught by SOE with even a simple 5 minute test of their own change IMO) is the innate crit bonus numbers that mobs have. In raid zones, melee type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on melee attacks and 30% on spell attacks. Caster type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on spell attacks (AOEs) and 30% on melee attacks.</blockquote>You may want to to check your information.Critical Avoidance (mobs) = Critical Mitigation (players). They do the same thing as each other, just named differently between players and mobs. It is like SOE was trying to confuse people?If your "Critical Chance" is lower than a mobs "Critical Avoidance", you will not land critical attacks on it. If your crit chance is over 100 above a mobs critical avoidance total, you will crit it nearly all the time.If your "Critical Mitigation" is lower than a mobs "Critical Chance", it will land critical attacks on you every time. If your crit mit is over 100 more than a mobs critical chance, the mob will not land critical attacks on you.Critical mitigation does NOT reduce how hard a critical hit lands for, if the hit successfully crits. This is why it is very important for raiders to meet the (critical mitigation + crit chance) mark where mobs no longer crit, and players always crit, because the difference in damage between crits and non-crits is massive, due to how high the crit bonus modifiers are on both sides of the table. Players who get critted = liabilities.

Ventisly

02-05-2012, 07:47 AM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Makya@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit Mit was to counter the mob's Crit Bonus, not Crit Chance (for those posts that are mixing the two stats incorrectly). What you are most likely seeing on test (something that should have been caught by SOE with even a simple 5 minute test of their own change IMO) is the innate crit bonus numbers that mobs have. In raid zones, melee type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on melee attacks and 30% on spell attacks. Caster type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on spell attacks (AOEs) and 30% on melee attacks.</blockquote>You may want to to check your information.Critical Avoidance (mobs) = Critical Mitigation (players). They do the same thing as each other, just named differently between players and mobs. It is like SOE was trying to confuse people?If your "Critical Chance" is lower than a mobs "Critical Avoidance", you will not land critical attacks on it. If your crit chance is over 100 above a mobs critical avoidance total, you will crit it nearly all the time.If your "Critical Mitigation" is lower than a mobs "Critical Chance", it will land critical attacks on you every time. If your crit mit is over 100 more than a mobs critical chance, the mob will not land critical attacks on you.Critical mitigation does NOT reduce how hard a critical hit lands for, if the hit successfully crits. This is why it is very important for raiders to meet the (critical mitigation + crit chance) mark where mobs no longer crit, and players always crit, because the difference in damage between crits and non-crits is massive, due to how high the crit bonus modifiers are on both sides of the table. Players who get critted = liabilities.</blockquote>Wow, this is so wrong but that's ok, most of it is going away soon on live servers to make it easier for y'all to understand. Mobs have a base 100% crit chance but it would only show up in logs as a crit if the calculated amount of damage was greater than the max non-crit damage. For example, if the mob has 30% crit bonus over the player's crit mitigation, it will hit 30% harder on every hit (unless it's crit chance was debuffed somehow) but in the logs, only the hits that were over it's base max damage would be listed as a crit.

Avirodar

02-05-2012, 07:58 AM

<cite>Makya@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Makya@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit Mit was to counter the mob's Crit Bonus, not Crit Chance (for those posts that are mixing the two stats incorrectly). What you are most likely seeing on test (something that should have been caught by SOE with even a simple 5 minute test of their own change IMO) is the innate crit bonus numbers that mobs have. In raid zones, melee type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on melee attacks and 30% on spell attacks. Caster type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on spell attacks (AOEs) and 30% on melee attacks.</blockquote>You may want to to check your information.Critical Avoidance (mobs) = Critical Mitigation (players). They do the same thing as each other, just named differently between players and mobs. It is like SOE was trying to confuse people?If your "Critical Chance" is lower than a mobs "Critical Avoidance", you will not land critical attacks on it. If your crit chance is over 100 above a mobs critical avoidance total, you will crit it nearly all the time.If your "Critical Mitigation" is lower than a mobs "Critical Chance", it will land critical attacks on you every time. If your crit mit is over 100 more than a mobs critical chance, the mob will not land critical attacks on you.Critical mitigation does NOT reduce how hard a critical hit lands for, if the hit successfully crits. This is why it is very important for raiders to meet the (critical mitigation + crit chance) mark where mobs no longer crit, and players always crit, because the difference in damage between crits and non-crits is massive, due to how high the crit bonus modifiers are on both sides of the table. Players who get critted = liabilities.</blockquote>Wow, this is so wrong but that's ok, most of it is going away soon on live servers to make it easier for y'all to understand. Mobs have a base 100% crit chance but it would only show up in logs as a crit if the calculated amount of damage was greater than the max non-crit damage. For example, if the mob has 30% crit bonus over the player's crit mitigation, it will hit 30% harder on every hit (unless it's crit chance was debuffed somehow) but in the logs, only the hits that were over it's base max damage would be listed as a crit.</blockquote>You must have different experiences in the game, than I.As a non-shaman healer, who has solo healed groups through numerous high end encounters spanning years, I have frequently seen the impact of critical mitigation and critical hitting AEs. So long as people in my group have just enough crit mit, a raid mobs AE's are the usual "tap" "tap" "tap", with no spectacular damage to note. If someone in the group is lacking just a few points of critical mitigation, the situation is mostly similar. The AE's will land and do their usual "tap" "tap" "tap" damage. But eventually, one of the AE's gets through as a crit. The difference is not subtle, it is very real, and very painful. I have consistently seen the results where someone who is just a little bit short on crit mit, gets disintegrated by an AE because it "crits", while everyone else (including people with just a few more crit mit) barely gets scratched due to non-crits. This has been the case in DoV, SF, and TSO.I will do some testing on mobs that require a decent amount of crit mit. If you are correct, the average incoming DPS on non-critical damage should go up by close to 3-4% for each 5 points critical mitigation dropped (depending on the type of attack). I will get critted on more often, and the average damage of the crits should also increase by a similar margin. Swapping out MA adorned raid armor, for crit mit adorned raid armor (identical pieces, diff adorns) will be an interesting review.

Uwopo

02-05-2012, 12:33 PM

Critical Mitigation (player) lowers the damage that a mob's critical hit hits for. A mob has some invisible chance to critically hit and when it does receives an innate 30-50% damage increase, plus the critical bonus displayed on the buff package. With enough critical mitigation, the critical damage will be reduced to zero and no longer display as a critical hit.Critical Avoidance (mob) directly contests the player's chance to score a critical hit. Subtract the mob's critical avoidance from your crit chance and the remaining percentage is your chance. If you score a critical hit, it applies your innate 30-50% crit bonus, plus your displayed crit bonus.Simply removing crit mit without adjusting anything else would significantly increase mob damage across the board. They'll go back to whatever their natural crit chance and crit bonus is.The simplest fix now would be to remove all crit mit from gear and buffs and just give all players an innate crit mit high enough deal with anything in game.Removing it doesn't suddenly give everyone access to all content, either. Crit chance is still a gating stat. If you're short of the required crit chance for a zone, your crit bonus doesn't apply and your just taking up space. The only difference is that it's determined by the parse, not your corpse on the floor.

CoLD MeTaL

02-06-2012, 03:55 PM

<cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite><blockquote>...</blockquote>So now you are complaining that skill might actually matter? Tht the zones aren't 'just' a gear check?Your statements to me prove that you know gear is currently the biggest part of raiding, and 'putting inthe time' is the biggest roadblock.Sounds like $OE might finally be headed the right way. And it's a little difficult to apply the term 'max Exodus' to less than 5% of the playerbase.

hoosierdaddy

02-06-2012, 04:45 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guild A has signifcantly more STA cause they have significantly better gear.Guild A still wins.</blockquote>^This.You don't get that kind of critmit% in the Group A without at least a mix of Drunder/EM gear, which will in many cases have twice as much STA/item as that equipped by Group B. (Please feel free to provide a single counterexample.)I'm guessing that the OP is actually most upset about the fact that the artifical barriers have been removed which prevented lesser geared players from attempting the more difficult zones without buying the loot rights from guilds capable of 2-grouping EM zones.The whole "we worked harder and should be allowed to access content that others have paid for but cannot access--and exploit this mechanic to our profit" is an antiquated notion that appeals to ~0.25% of the player population, and one that has been especially singled out as something that will not exist in EQ Next.

Felshades

02-06-2012, 05:40 PM

<cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guild A has signifcantly more STA cause they have significantly better gear.Guild A still wins.</blockquote>^This.You don't get that kind of critmit% in the Group A without at least a mix of Drunder/EM gear, which will in many cases have twice as much STA/item as that equipped by Group B. (Please feel free to provide a single counterexample.)I'm guessing that the OP is actually most upset about the fact that the artifical barriers have been removed which prevented lesser geared players from attempting the more difficult zones without buying the loot rights from guilds capable of 2-grouping EM zones.The whole "we worked harder and should be allowed to access content that others have paid for but cannot access--and exploit this mechanic to our profit" is an antiquated notion that appeals to ~0.25% of the player population, and one that has been especially singled out as something that will not exist in EQ Next.</blockquote>I say let em go try it.I want to see the tears when they can't kill stuff in lesser gear but tried anyways and are now upset about their lack of ability to kill things.It will be hilarious.

Banditman

02-06-2012, 06:30 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>If someone in the group is lacking just a few points of critical mitigation, the situation is mostly similar. The AE's will land and do their usual "tap" "tap" "tap" damage. But eventually, one of the AE's gets through as a crit. The difference is not subtle, it is very real, and very painful.</blockquote>I agree with your experience, but the reason is really subtle. Basically, you're right, but crit mit is not implimented well.What "should" happen is exactly what you said. Mostly, it does. The thing is, when that player does get crit on, the max + 1 calculation happens. That's "why" the difference is significant. When the player isn't getting crit, no max + 1, so he's taking "basically" the same damage as the rest of your group.This is what I've been seeing, and some other players have seen. It's that max + 1 that ends up getting people killed. I am not sure exactly "how" crit mit is truly implimented, but it's pretty bad. I know how it's supposed to work, and it generally works that way, but there are those times when you don't have enough and it's a HUGE leap between barely having enough and barely missing the mark.This is why it was always so important as a tank to be SURE that you had enough to NEVER get crit'ed. Even having just 1 crit mit less than enough could easily get you spiked and killed, even though by definition being that close should be enough to make the hit barely even noticeable over a non crit hit.

Uwopo

02-06-2012, 06:42 PM

<cite>Meridia@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say let em go try it.I want to see the tears when they can't kill stuff in lesser gear but tried anyways and are now upset about their lack of ability to kill things.It will be hilarious.</blockquote>That's what confuses me about all the excitement over this change. Removing crit mit doesn't really open content up to anyone. If you don't have the gear originally required to meet the crit mit requirement, you're not going to stand a chance anyway. Crit mit only comes on 7 slots worth of gear. You still need the DPS, stats, resists and especially crit chance that comes on all 21 slots. All this change does is add some flexibility in 7 red adornment slots (non war-rune slots) and give lesser geared tagalongs a slightly higher survival rate, although they're unlikely to be able to make any meaningful contribution to the raid's success.Assuming they fix the whole mob crit thing currently on test, the removal of crit might give raids that were on the cusp of beating new content a little boost. Mainly because they can pick up a little DPS or survivability with new adornment choices.Nobody is going to take a group geared in SF and DoV quest legendary into Drunder and survive and a raid without DoV EM gear is unlikely to make it past the trash in any of the HM zones.

millie

02-06-2012, 07:36 PM

<cite>Uwopo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meridia@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say let em go try it.I want to see the tears when they can't kill stuff in lesser gear but tried anyways and are now upset about their lack of ability to kill things.It will be hilarious.</blockquote>That's what confuses me about all the excitement over this change. Removing crit mit doesn't really open content up to anyone. If you don't have the gear originally required to meet the crit mit requirement, you're not going to stand a chance anyway. Crit mit only comes on 7 slots worth of gear. You still need the DPS, stats, resists and especially crit chance that comes on all 21 slots. All this change does is add some flexibility in 7 red adornment slots (non war-rune slots) and give lesser geared tagalongs a slightly higher survival rate, although they're unlikely to be able to make any meaningful contribution to the raid's success.Assuming they fix the whole mob crit thing currently on test, the removal of crit might give raids that were on the cusp of beating new content a little boost. Mainly because they can pick up a little DPS or survivability with new adornment choices.Nobody is going to take a group geared in SF and DoV quest legendary into Drunder and survive and a raid without DoV EM gear is unlikely to make it past the trash in any of the HM zones.</blockquote>You are really making no sense.The purpose of the change is to open up content to everyone. If it does not do this why make the change?The fear is that the change may close content to guilds currently killing hard mode mobs. Hopefully this is fixed by release date but past outcomes suggest we will get it "as is" on live and have to gripe and stamp our feet for a while before it gets fixed. This is because mobs will "crit" players that wernt being "critted" before, yes the crits will be softer but they may make a mob that is currently "doable" "undoable". If the change works as intended, yes we will have slots for better adorns and more content will open up. But on SOE's recent track record everyone expects a SNAFU.

Hirofortis

02-06-2012, 07:47 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uwopo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meridia@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say let em go try it.I want to see the tears when they can't kill stuff in lesser gear but tried anyways and are now upset about their lack of ability to kill things.It will be hilarious.</blockquote>That's what confuses me about all the excitement over this change. Removing crit mit doesn't really open content up to anyone. If you don't have the gear originally required to meet the crit mit requirement, you're not going to stand a chance anyway. Crit mit only comes on 7 slots worth of gear. You still need the DPS, stats, resists and especially crit chance that comes on all 21 slots. All this change does is add some flexibility in 7 red adornment slots (non war-rune slots) and give lesser geared tagalongs a slightly higher survival rate, although they're unlikely to be able to make any meaningful contribution to the raid's success.Assuming they fix the whole mob crit thing currently on test, the removal of crit might give raids that were on the cusp of beating new content a little boost. Mainly because they can pick up a little DPS or survivability with new adornment choices.Nobody is going to take a group geared in SF and DoV quest legendary into Drunder and survive and a raid without DoV EM gear is unlikely to make it past the trash in any of the HM zones.</blockquote>You are really making no sense.The purpose of the change is to open up content to everyone. If it does not do this why make the change?The fear is that the change may close content to guilds currently killing hard mode mobs. Hopefully this is fixed by release date but past outcomes suggest we will get it "as is" on live and have to gripe and stamp our feet for a while before it gets fixed. This is because mobs will "crit" players that wernt being "critted" before, yes the crits will be softer but they may make a mob that is currently "doable" "undoable". If the change works as intended, yes we will have slots for better adorns and more content will open up. But on SOE's recent track record everyone expects a SNAFU.</blockquote>Sadly you are right. With there past track record we can all expect the good intention to foobar back on us and then we begin the nerfing process to fix the issue. We can expect that the issues will not be fixed until after March when the new content comes out and then people will be trying to move on with broken mechanics only to have to have everything changed in the next 6 months. Guess we are all a glutton for punishment. With that being said, I can only hope that it will actually work, but I am not holding out hope. lol.

Talathion

02-06-2012, 07:52 PM

also breaks duels. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

gatrm

02-06-2012, 07:56 PM

If the purpose of the change is to open up more content for everyone, then they need to take away the ability to crit from mobs. Removing crit mit from players will increase incoming damage to all raid forces by the innate crit bonus of the mob, if mobs are allowed to continue critting. For those of you who have been around for a while, do you remember raiding before crit mit was introduced? Pretty sure it was introduced with TSO, but raiding before TSO....from launch through RoK... the raid mobs could not crit. There was still a progression. There was still a definite difference between what the top end guilds and the casual raid forces could kill, but it was also less random. Raiding should go back to what it was then. Allow progression based on strategies and coordination rather than whether the mob is critting.

LardLord

02-06-2012, 08:06 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote>The purpose of the change is to open up content to everyone. If it does not do this why make the change?</blockquote>Because the mechanic was redundant - even without being crit on, players couldn't progress much beyond their level of gear, since they lacked green stats and other blue stats. It was poorly implemented in the current content - one huge step up to get into Drunder HM, but then no progression in the stat at all for the next three zones. And it was unfun - players were essentially forced to obsess over crit mit until they had enough, and then it suddenly became irrelevant. Judging by the reaction to its removal, crit mit was also apparently confusing to many players, but I doubt that played a role in the decision to nix it.

Uwopo

02-06-2012, 08:11 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uwopo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's what confuses me about all the excitement over this change. Removing crit mit doesn't really open content up to anyone. If you don't have the gear originally required to meet the crit mit requirement, you're not going to stand a chance anyway. Crit mit only comes on 7 slots worth of gear. You still need the DPS, stats, resists and especially crit chance that comes on all 21 slots. All this change does is add some flexibility in 7 red adornment slots (non war-rune slots) and give lesser geared tagalongs a slightly higher survival rate, although they're unlikely to be able to make any meaningful contribution to the raid's success.Assuming they fix the whole mob crit thing currently on test, the removal of crit might give raids that were on the cusp of beating new content a little boost. Mainly because they can pick up a little DPS or survivability with new adornment choices.Nobody is going to take a group geared in SF and DoV quest legendary into Drunder and survive and a raid without DoV EM gear is unlikely to make it past the trash in any of the HM zones.</blockquote>You are really making no sense.The purpose of the change is to open up content to everyone. If it does not do this why make the change?The fear is that the change may close content to guilds currently killing hard mode mobs. Hopefully this is fixed by release date but past outcomes suggest we will get it "as is" on live and have to gripe and stamp our feet for a while before it gets fixed. This is because mobs will "crit" players that wernt being "critted" before, yes the crits will be softer but they may make a mob that is currently "doable" "undoable". If the change works as intended, yes we will have slots for better adorns and more content will open up. But on SOE's recent track record everyone expects a SNAFU.</blockquote>I'm curious, what do you think removing crit mit is going to open up? Crit mit is just one stat that's on 1/3 of the gear slots.If you aren't geared sufficiently for the content, you aren't going to beat it, with or without crit mit. Hard mode content is hard, even if your entire raid force has the crit mit required. Not having the required crit mit just meant you found out in the first 30-60 seconds of the fight that you stood no chance. If you were close to beating something before, then removal of crit mit might give you the edge you needed to get past it.It's not some miracle fix that means people in Otter quest gear or Thurgadin faction gear are going to jump into Drunder EM, let alone any HM content. If you have 120 crit mit today and unable to get into a Drunder pickup raid, you aren't going to be welcomed into one when this goes live. Requirements will just change from 200CM, 270CC to 45kHP, 270CC.Your second point is completely true. If SOE doesn't fix the crit issue before this goes live, raids will be unable to kill some mobs they've killed before.

millie

02-06-2012, 08:34 PM

<cite>Uwopo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uwopo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's what confuses me about all the excitement over this change. Removing crit mit doesn't really open content up to anyone. If you don't have the gear originally required to meet the crit mit requirement, you're not going to stand a chance anyway. Crit mit only comes on 7 slots worth of gear. You still need the DPS, stats, resists and especially crit chance that comes on all 21 slots. All this change does is add some flexibility in 7 red adornment slots (non war-rune slots) and give lesser geared tagalongs a slightly higher survival rate, although they're unlikely to be able to make any meaningful contribution to the raid's success.Assuming they fix the whole mob crit thing currently on test, the removal of crit might give raids that were on the cusp of beating new content a little boost. Mainly because they can pick up a little DPS or survivability with new adornment choices.Nobody is going to take a group geared in SF and DoV quest legendary into Drunder and survive and a raid without DoV EM gear is unlikely to make it past the trash in any of the HM zones.</blockquote>You are really making no sense.The purpose of the change is to open up content to everyone. If it does not do this why make the change?The fear is that the change may close content to guilds currently killing hard mode mobs. Hopefully this is fixed by release date but past outcomes suggest we will get it "as is" on live and have to gripe and stamp our feet for a while before it gets fixed. This is because mobs will "crit" players that wernt being "critted" before, yes the crits will be softer but they may make a mob that is currently "doable" "undoable". If the change works as intended, yes we will have slots for better adorns and more content will open up. But on SOE's recent track record everyone expects a SNAFU.</blockquote>I'm curious, what do you think removing crit mit is going to open up? Crit mit is just one stat that's on 1/3 of the gear slots.If you aren't geared sufficiently for the content, you aren't going to beat it, with or without crit mit. Hard mode content is hard, even if your entire raid force has the crit mit required. Not having the required crit mit just meant you found out in the first 30-60 seconds of the fight that you stood no chance. If you were close to beating something before, then removal of crit mit might give you the edge you needed to get past it.It's not some miracle fix that means people in Otter quest gear or Thurgadin faction gear are going to jump into Drunder EM, let alone any HM content. If you have 120 crit mit today and unable to get into a Drunder pickup raid, you aren't going to be welcomed into one when this goes live. Requirements will just change from 200CM, 270CC to 45kHP, 270CC.Your second point is completely true. If SOE doesn't fix the crit issue before this goes live, raids will be unable to kill some mobs they've killed before.</blockquote>I have no idea what content the change will open up and for who. What I said was that this was SOE's intent, I still maintain that to be true. If the change works then it should make bringing a new toon into an existing geared raid easier and smoother however. So I look forward to a succesfull change. Just doubt that it will be painless and happen on Tuesday.

LardLord

02-06-2012, 08:53 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea what content the change will open up and for who. What I said was that this was SOE's intent, I still maintain that to be true. </blockquote>You must have missed this post found here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=105&topic_id=514354">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=514354</a><cite>Silius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to clarify some confusion.<ul><li>Crit mit as a mechanic is being removed. </li><li>NPC crit bonus was countered by crit mit and we are reducing crit bonus to 0 across the board. </li><li>Critical avoidance is staying around. Critical avoidance is an NPCs way of contesting your chance to critically hit them. </li><li>Replacing the adornments with HP is not to compensate for anything. Since the critical mitgiation stat is no longer useful we are converting to a stat that benefits all players.</li><li>The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.</li></ul>Note: NPC crit bonus may be used in the future on a case by case bases and will be considered in the balance of the encounter so that crit mit is not required.If you have any questions please do not hesitate to PM me.</blockquote>They're removing the mechanic because, for various reasons, it's just a bad mechanic.

millie

02-07-2012, 01:08 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea what content the change will open up and for who. What I said was that this was SOE's intent, I still maintain that to be true. </blockquote>You must have missed this post found here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=105&topic_id=514354">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=514354</a><cite>Silius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to clarify some confusion.<ul><li>Crit mit as a mechanic is being removed. </li><li>NPC crit bonus was countered by crit mit and we are reducing crit bonus to 0 across the board. </li><li>Critical avoidance is staying around. Critical avoidance is an NPCs way of contesting your chance to critically hit them. </li><li>Replacing the adornments with HP is not to compensate for anything. Since the critical mitgiation stat is no longer useful we are converting to a stat that benefits all players.</li><li>The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.</li></ul>Note: NPC crit bonus may be used in the future on a case by case bases and will be considered in the balance of the encounter so that crit mit is not required.If you have any questions please do not hesitate to PM me.</blockquote>They're removing the mechanic because, for various reasons, it's just a bad mechanic.</blockquote>hmmm we could go round in circles indefinitely here. Yes I read the post you refer to, several times in fact. I have obviously reached different conclusions to you. My belief, and I may be alone here, is that the chief reason "it's .... a bad mechanic" is that it puts unnecessary bars to entry to the raid zones that are unrelated to "the (intended) difficulty of the encounters" and therefore it had to go. Because it was preventing access to zones that should have been doable by a larger proportion of the user base.

CoLD MeTaL

02-07-2012, 11:46 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>They're removing the mechanic because, for various reasons, it's just a bad mechanic.</blockquote>What you are witnessing is game CPR. Now will it work?

Illmarr

02-07-2012, 12:16 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea what content the change will open up and for who. What I said was that this was SOE's intent, I still maintain that to be true. </blockquote>You must have missed this post found here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=105&topic_id=514354">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=514354</a><cite>Silius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to clarify some confusion.<ul><li>Crit mit as a mechanic is being removed. </li><li>NPC crit bonus was countered by crit mit and we are reducing crit bonus to 0 across the board. </li><li>Critical avoidance is staying around. Critical avoidance is an NPCs way of contesting your chance to critically hit them. </li><li>Replacing the adornments with HP is not to compensate for anything. Since the critical mitgiation stat is no longer useful we are converting to a stat that benefits all players.</li><li>The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.</li></ul>Note: NPC crit bonus may be used in the future on a case by case bases and will be considered in the balance of the encounter so that crit mit is not required.If you have any questions please do not hesitate to PM me.</blockquote>They're removing the mechanic because, for various reasons, it's just a bad mechanic.</blockquote>hmmm we could go round in circles indefinitely here. Yes I read the post you refer to, several times in fact. I have obviously reached different conclusions to you. My belief, and I may be alone here, is that the chief reason "it's .... a bad mechanic" is that it puts unnecessary bars to entry to the raid zones that are unrelated to "the (intended) difficulty of the encounters" and therefore it had to go. Because it was preventing access to zones that should have been doable by a larger proportion of the user base.</blockquote>Yes, in Sony's thinkiing removing CM should open zones up. In reality all it will do is take down a bar made of metal (CM) and replace it with a bar made of wood (Crit chance, stamina, overall DPS, take your pick). When the change goes live geared forces will be able to drag along 1-2 undergeared recruits and compensate for their loss while they kill the HM mobs already on farm status to get them caught up, but a full group or raid of people in what currently is gear that doesn't have enough crit mit will still fail due to lack of DPS/heals not critting 100%

Butcherblade

02-24-2012, 08:24 PM

If they go ahead as Mogrim posted and leave the abilities that players have and on some gear that siphons or reduces crit bonus on Mobs, raids could reduce the innate crit on a mob to 0 or close enough to 0 to make as much a difference as if you had enough crit mit to totally negate the crit of a mob anyway.

Fitz

02-28-2012, 02:38 PM

Or they could simply add a 30% critical chance debuff to our X2 raid debuffs and just be done with it.

Yimway

02-28-2012, 02:58 PM

<cite>Fitz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or they could simply add a 30% critical chance debuff to our X2 raid debuffs and just be done with it.</blockquote>Um, no.This isn't a raiding only fix, and the last thing I want to do is persist that debuff even more.

Hamervelder

02-28-2012, 03:15 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fitz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or they could simply add a 30% critical chance debuff to our X2 raid debuffs and just be done with it.</blockquote>Um, no.This isn't a raiding only fix, and the last thing I want to do is persist that debuff even more.</blockquote>I concur. That debuff was, in my opinion, one of the dumbest ideas of this whole expansion. It's nothing more than a key without being a key.

Meatwaggon

03-02-2012, 06:18 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Makya@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit Mit was to counter the mob's Crit Bonus, not Crit Chance (for those posts that are mixing the two stats incorrectly). What you are most likely seeing on test (something that should have been caught by SOE with even a simple 5 minute test of their own change IMO) is the innate crit bonus numbers that mobs have. In raid zones, melee type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on melee attacks and 30% on spell attacks. Caster type mobs had a 50% innate crit bonus on spell attacks (AOEs) and 30% on melee attacks.</blockquote>You may want to to check your information.Critical Avoidance (mobs) = Critical Mitigation (players). They do the same thing as each other, just named differently between players and mobs. It is like SOE was trying to confuse people?If your "Critical Chance" is lower than a mobs "Critical Avoidance", you will not land critical attacks on it. If your crit chance is over 100 above a mobs critical avoidance total, you will crit it nearly all the time.If your "Critical Mitigation" is lower than a mobs "Critical Chance", it will land critical attacks on you every time. If your crit mit is over 100 more than a mobs critical chance, the mob will not land critical attacks on you.Critical mitigation does NOT reduce how hard a critical hit lands for, if the hit successfully crits. This is why it is very important for raiders to meet the (critical mitigation + crit chance) mark where mobs no longer crit, and players always crit, because the difference in damage between crits and non-crits is massive, due to how high the crit bonus modifiers are on both sides of the table. Players who get critted = liabilities.</blockquote>Wow, you are so full of wrong it's not even funny. SOE surprisingly was not trying to confuse people, except apparently yourself. The language is absolutely correct. A player's CM directly decreases a mob's CB, not CC. A mob's CA directly decreases a player's CC.

Neiloch

03-02-2012, 07:05 PM

<cite>Cisteros@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, in Sony's thinkiing removing CM should open zones up. In reality all it will do is take down a bar made of metal (CM) and replace it with a bar made of wood (Crit chance, stamina, overall DPS, take your pick). When the change goes live geared forces will be able to drag along 1-2 undergeared recruits and compensate for their loss while they kill the HM mobs already on farm status to get them caught up, but a full group or raid of people in what currently is gear that doesn't have enough crit mit will still fail due to lack of DPS/heals not critting 100% </blockquote>Their idea isn't to open zones up, its to have raiding be possible like it was before Crit mit. Like you said, drag some undergeared folks through a zone the main force can already kill. Just like it was BEFORE crit mit.Right now if you don't have enough crit mit, even if you are off by a few percent = one shotted. And there isn't a thing the rest of the raid could do about it outside of using death saves. Also if you are a stellar player trying to apply to a guild doing things above your equipment, it's a 'non starter' because you will be 100% useless to them.Until you get crit mit to raid with them, but you need to raid with them to get crit mit, but you can't raid with them until you get more crit mit, infinite loop of screwed.