Thoughts & Ideas on the state of Dungeon Making [Archive]

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Crombie

01-18-2012, 01:43 PM

Analyzing Customization vs FarmsWith the current Promotion for Bonus Marks on Dungeons, it is a slap to the face for the designers that have put time into their dungeons and reward Dungeon Mark farms.On virtually every server, Dungeon Mark Farms are in the Hall of Fame, some of which have had several more visits than any dungeon with a hint of customization. For instance, on Butcherblock, there are at least 5 Mark Farms in the Hall of Fame. Almost all of these have 0 furniture in them, including the free dungeon furniture. With the Bonus Dungeon Marks, these dungeon farms have had their overall attendance increased immensely. I’ve seen the token farm dungeons almost double, if not more, their vote count (ex: 20 to 50+ votes) in the past day with the promotion, while customized dungeons see perhaps 1 to 3 new votes. This goes for all categories, not just Hall of Fame.It points to the horrendous flaw to the way customized dungeons are treated. Why even bother spending the time and money customizing a dungeon when you can just line up generic mobs for slaughter and enter the Hall of Fame. There is almost no incentive to be creative except for the idea that you made something neat for yourself and the occasional visitor, while a dungeon farm owner reaps in rewards.There needs to be changes to the system that shows more favor for customized dungeons. It is understandable that not everyone is equally creative, but the idea that someone was willing to try and visually customize a dungeon is what Dungeon Customization is all about. There are certainly limitations as to what players can make, but there are also countless furniture options in Everquest2 that could easily tailor any area into something different.In the state the dungeon designing is in right now, I won’t bother to make any more dungeons.Ideas for the FutureSeveral ideas have been posted on the forums for what people would like to see what could make the dungeon designing better. These are just a few of them…We need a way to “escape” or /stuck avatars in dungeons. Any sort of customization to a dungeon that doesn’t fully render can cause a player to get stuck, and thusly, not enjoy a customized dungeon. Why run something you think you’ll get stuck in?Dungeon with furniture should get a boost. When a dungeon has 0 furniture, the owner should either get a reduced amount per person running their dungeon, or players WITH furniture in their dungeons should get a bonus for either each person that runs it (and possibly the player that does also) Something needs to be addressed here.Allow players to accumulate tokens while running, instead of just at the end of dungeons. Too many times people run dungeons and either get disconnected, stuck in furniture, or the designer placed an impossible encounter in the final room. People’s time is then wasted and they have nothing to show for it when they decide to leave. This doesn’t mean the players have to vote on the dungeon, but they can at least be compensated for their time.Allow a Random Dungeon Selection. Allow players to hit a button to be thrown into a random player dungeon and receive bonus marks for doing so. This would give dungeons that never see visitors a chance to be experienced, especially those who have been lost under the massive amount of other dungeons. There needs to be an incentive to lure people into older / lost dungeons. These are just a few of the ideas, but overall something needs to be addressed with the current state of Dungeon Making

GussJr

01-18-2012, 01:50 PM

<cite>Bink@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Allow a Random Dungeon Selection. Allow players to hit a button to be thrown into a random player dungeon and receive bonus marks for doing so. This would give dungeons that never see visitors a chance to be experienced, especially those who have been lost under the massive amount of other dungeons. There needs to be an incentive to lure people into older / lost dungeons. </blockquote>This was my favorite one of your ideas. I think this alone may make the biggest difference for DM.After seeing the DM leader boards lately, I haven't been motivated to do much work on my own dungeons...but if I knew that my dungeon had the chance of being seen, I would definitely have the drive to complete my designs and publish them.

Daisey

01-18-2012, 02:50 PM

For me the more creative dungeons are more difficult. They're full of clutter and hidden critters. I just don't see the fun in hiding a bunch of mobs behind a screen so they jump on me and kill me. That might be fun for some but I don't enjoy it. There is one named Farming on Oasis that I tried yesterday. It took way too long and rewarded (with bonus) something like 96 tokens. I made one of my own that takes maybe a half hour that rewards 53ish (again with bonus) tokens. The farming one does have 45 likes so people do seem to do it. It might not have taken so long but I kept dying because of the mob density.I just publish mine when I want to play and I try to remember to unpublish when I'm finished. I'm trying to see how many mobs I can get in the dungeon and still have it be mostly single mob encounters.Question: Are the tokens the same solo vs. group? Or are they split between group members?

Mary the Prophetess

01-18-2012, 03:54 PM

I think that giving players more information on the Dungeon they are selecting would be of great valueHave three screenshots instead of only one.Allow a paragraph to describe the Dungeon (sort of like a character biography)Give the total number of MOBs placed in a dungeonGive the total number of objects in a dungeon (to give some idea of whether or not it is a decorated, or a bare dungeon)Give the number of tokens received upon sucessful completionGive the average amount of time needed to complete the dungeon (30 min, i hour, 90 minutes, 2 hours)

GussJr

01-18-2012, 03:58 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that giving players more information on the Dungeon they are selecting would be of great valueHave three screenshots instead of only one.Allow a paragraph to describe the Dungeon (sort of like a character biography)Give the total number of MOBs placed in a dungeonGive the total number of objects in a dungeon (to give some idea of whether or not it is a decorated, or a bare dungeon)Give the number of tokens received upon sucessful completionGive the average amount of time needed to complete the dungeon (30 min, i hour, 90 minutes, 2 hours)</blockquote>I like this! I had one dungeon designed, completed, and totally doable...it even gave 101 tokens in just about 45 minutes...no one ran it, not one person.

Troy

01-18-2012, 04:02 PM

Other things that can be done: When you open the dungeon maker window - it no longer defaults to Newly Published - this is a HUGE mistake on SOE and they should revert that to show the new dungeons first.Reverting back to allowing only two active dungeons per character should also be put back in place.Having mobs randomly drop Dungeon Marks as loot would ensure players get something out of a dungeon in case they get stuck or crashed out of the instance.I would like to have a 'description' box under my dungeon name so I can give players an idea of whats inside. I would also like a better rating system - even going back to the 5 star system - anything that would give better feedback on the dungeon. I know every system can and will be exploited, but the current "like-don't like" has proven to be worthless. I know we asked for it, now we see it doesn't work - lets find another way.The system SOE uses to put dungeons (and published houses) in the Hall of Fame needs a radical makeover. The current system is so bad, I bet 95% of the players don't understand how it even works. Hall of Fame means something or some one that is "renown". In this game for both DM and House leaderboards, that means something thats creative and awesome - not something that has 200 mobs - 3 to each corner thats a farming instance.The current avatar system - OMG, what a horrible idea - can't wait to take my own characters into dungeons - this might be the saving grace for the whole Dungeon Maker feature. I couldn't wait for this feature to come out - I was so disappointed with the weak defualt avatars. I love the idea of doing random dungeons for higher rewards. In a nutshell - DM is a BIG FAIL. I think its too late to fix and I wouldn't encourage anyone waste time making a crafted dungeon, big disappointment as the farming dungeons will prevail.

Deveryn

01-18-2012, 05:48 PM

<cite>Bink@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ideas for the FutureDungeon with furniture should get a boost. When a dungeon has 0 furniture, the owner should either get a reduced amount per person running their dungeon, or players WITH furniture in their dungeons should get a bonus for either each person that runs it (and possibly the player that does also) Something needs to be addressed here.</blockquote>I think you'll run into a problem with this too. Furniture count only means people can plop down x amount of free furniture to get a boost. Given what's at the top of the leaderboards right now, I don't think any marks should be handed to people at all. It's only feeding the cycle of crappy / easy dungeons. People run the farms, which encourages more farm production.I think it was wrong to have any kind of rating or rewards on houses and dungeons to begin with.

Banditman

01-18-2012, 06:03 PM

The biggest problem Dungeon Decorator has and will continue to have is that PLAYING the dungeons just isn't fun. This was stated well in advance of it's actual release, but in typical EQ2 fashion, the feature was rushed to live and is now falling apart.Make no mistake about it. This product/feature is not what ANYONE had in mind when this feature was announced as forthcoming.The dungeons simply aren't going to be fun. The tools aren't there to make them so. It's just a matter of finding the path of least resistance to the rewards you want.

GrunEQ

01-18-2012, 07:37 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that giving players more information on the Dungeon they are selecting would be of great valueHave three screenshots instead of only one.Allow a paragraph to describe the Dungeon (sort of like a character biography)Give the total number of MOBs placed in a dungeonGive the total number of objects in a dungeon (to give some idea of whether or not it is a decorated, or a bare dungeon)Give the number of tokens received upon sucessful completionGive the average amount of time needed to complete the dungeon (30 min, i hour, 90 minutes, 2 hours)</blockquote>Yes, please. I would also like to be able to have mobs drop rewards....rewards that I placed on the mob.

Mary the Prophetess

01-18-2012, 08:57 PM

This is the type of entry for a player dungeon that I would like to see. I beleive that it might solve a number of different issues.Dungeon Name:The Mines of Meldrath the MalignantDungeon Location:Antonia Bayle ServerLayout Used:Lair of Scale 3Description:This is a multi-level large dungeon that has been extensively modified from the original format. It contains approximately 155 MOBs of various types and strengths. The exit is located at the opposite end of the dungeon from the entrance. On playtest there were 10 deaths from start to finish. The playing time on playtest was about 90 min. The number of tokens awarded was 135. Mobs are designed to come in a variety of combinations, from 1-4 (if rooms are entered with caution). While challenging, it is not a slaughterhouse. It was run solo with Drolvarg Avatar during playtest. Graphics settings of 'balanced' are recommended unless your computer is newer. Feedback and recommendations for improvement are welcomed via in-game mail to Einion.Screenshots:<img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000010-2-1.png" /> <img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000006-2-1.png" /><img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000008-2-1.png" /> <img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000007-2-1.png" />This or perhaps something along these lines.What do you think, thumbs up or thumbs down?

Katz

01-18-2012, 10:15 PM

<cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that giving players more information on the Dungeon they are selecting would be of great valueHave three screenshots instead of only one.Allow a paragraph to describe the Dungeon (sort of like a character biography)Give the total number of MOBs placed in a dungeonGive the total number of objects in a dungeon (to give some idea of whether or not it is a decorated, or a bare dungeon)Give the number of tokens received upon sucessful completionGive the average amount of time needed to complete the dungeon (30 min, i hour, 90 minutes, 2 hours)</blockquote>I like this! I had one dungeon designed, completed, and totally doable...it even gave 101 tokens in just about 45 minutes...no one ran it, not one person.</blockquote>I love this idea. I was looking through the choices for dungeons and wishing I had that info this week. Trying to decide which one to visit. And your dungeon sounds like one I'd want to visit. 45 minutes is about right for me and that is a suitable reward.

Troy

01-19-2012, 02:08 AM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the type of entry for a player dungeon that I would like to see. I beleive that it might solve a number of different issues.Dungeon Name:The Mines of Meldrath the MalignantDungeon Location:Antonia Bayle ServerLayout Used:Lair of Scale 3Description:This is a multi-level large dungeon that has been extensively modified from the original format. It contains approximately 155 MOBs of various types and strengths. The exit is located at the opposite end of the dungeon from the entrance. On playtest there were 10 deaths from start to finish. The playing time on playtest was about 90 min. The number of tokens awarded was 135. Mobs are designed to come in a variety of combinations, from 1-4 (if rooms are entered with caution). While challenging, it is not a slaughterhouse. It was run solo with Drolvarg Avatar during playtest. Graphics settings of 'balanced' are recommended unless your computer is newer. Feedback and recommendations for improvement are welcomed via in-game mail to Einion.Screenshots:<img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000010-2-1.png" /> <img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000006-2-1.png" /><img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000008-2-1.png" /> <img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000007-2-1.png" />This or perhaps something along these lines.What do you think, thumbs up or thumbs down?</blockquote>Hey, I played through your dungeon. Only died 2 times ( learned to pull mobs correctly...lol). Your dungeon is awesome. Nice themed rooms that progress well to next theme and lvl. Awesome crafting and pathing and nice mobs. Great job!

lillyofthevally

01-19-2012, 12:39 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that giving players more information on the Dungeon they are selecting would be of great valueHave three screenshots instead of only one.Allow a paragraph to describe the Dungeon (sort of like a character biography)Give the total number of MOBs placed in a dungeonGive the total number of objects in a dungeon (to give some idea of whether or not it is a decorated, or a bare dungeon)Give the number of tokens received upon sucessful completionGive the average amount of time needed to complete the dungeon (30 min, i hour, 90 minutes, 2 hours)</blockquote>Love that idea! I zone back out if I see there hasnt been anything place other then tons of groups of 3 orcs/gnolls ughMore screenshots would be fantastic, I do try and pick what dungeon I want to run based on their teasers. Knowing how many tokens in advance would be really fantastic.Also any chance of seeing our toolbox outside of the dungeon?

GussJr

01-19-2012, 01:11 PM

Tinyena540

01-19-2012, 01:19 PM

I was really excited about the thought of designing my own dungeon....until I ran a few. No customization, just a few mobs every few feet. Why put my time into making things for a custom dungeon with my carpenter and then more time placing things. I'd like the ability to take my own toons into a dungeon I created to test the overall difficulty and "flow of the dungeon. I like having things make sense, not just a spider here and then a skeleton next for no reason etc. Also there needs to be a better way to advertize whether your dungeon is truly creative or just empy space with mobs. I like the idea of more thumbnails and a short description of what you might find inside.

apwyork

01-22-2012, 07:03 AM

Instead of wasting any effort adding more content that may not work, it would best server the community if they FIXED THE BUGS!!!!! Too often when you enter the dungeon and choose your avatar you dont get the avatar abilities. Instead, you keep your hotbars with abilities you can't use. Been happening since day 1.Excessive vitality drain. A normal mob is worth exp which is modified up by vitality, vet, etc. So is a dungeon mob, yet the corresponding vitality use was noticably higher even though the exp was not proportionally higher. This was noticed since day 1. Now though, for the last 3-4 weeks, entering even the tiniest of dungeons costs you 100% of your vitality. Not a bug, but a pointless method that allows griefing is that some players, not many, but some, place a decent amount of mobs all the way through a dungeon so you spend 30-60 minutes working through it to get the a point where the creator thought it would be freakin hysterical to put about 50 mobs in one spot so there's no way to kill anything before you get killed, thus making the dungeon unfinishable and the time spent a total waste. Seen too many people complain about this to think "No, they must be making it up. Nobody would be that infantile...but then I realize this is eq2, there's plenty of people that infantile."

WanyenII

01-22-2012, 07:47 AM

<cite>Troy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the type of entry for a player dungeon that I would like to see. I beleive that it might solve a number of different issues.Dungeon Name:The Mines of Meldrath the MalignantDungeon Location:Antonia Bayle ServerLayout Used:Lair of Scale 3Description:This is a multi-level large dungeon that has been extensively modified from the original format. It contains approximately 155 MOBs of various types and strengths. The exit is located at the opposite end of the dungeon from the entrance. On playtest there were 10 deaths from start to finish. The playing time on playtest was about 90 min. The number of tokens awarded was 135. Mobs are designed to come in a variety of combinations, from 1-4 (if rooms are entered with caution). While challenging, it is not a slaughterhouse. It was run solo with Drolvarg Avatar during playtest. Graphics settings of 'balanced' are recommended unless your computer is newer. Feedback and recommendations for improvement are welcomed via in-game mail to Einion.Screenshots:<img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000010-2-1.png" /> <img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000006-2-1.png" /><img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000008-2-1.png" /> <img src="http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/agh1950/EQ2_000007-2-1.png" />This or perhaps something along these lines.What do you think, thumbs up or thumbs down?</blockquote>Hey, I played through your dungeon. Only died 2 times ( learned to pull mobs correctly...lol). Your dungeon is awesome. Nice themed rooms that progress well to next theme and lvl. Awesome crafting and pathing and nice mobs. Great job! </blockquote>Perhaps as supplementary alternative: a random dungeon selector using basic filtering paramaters might alleviate the refinfocement of the dungeon farms and 'most liked' as the primary maps players run.When a map is published, and subsequently run, the behind the scenes procecessing of the layout would automatically generate the basic meta information, and could be compared against match criteria of players. eg, I want a map that takes generally 30 minutes or less, has token reward of at least 50 tokens, and is typically liked by previous adventurers; or, I want a newly published dungeon that offers at least 70 tokens (plus whatever bonuses I might also incur).Now, to get adventurers into previously unused dungeons, there has to be some incentive. Perhaps an achievement for running so many new maps, for discussion, say at 10, 25, and 50. Perhaps at 50 an achievement unique title, or something of that nature. New maps, of course have no or few reviews, and the probably should be maps that you are not otherwise directly associated with (not the creator or trustee, and not a different character of the creator or trustee). Guild members of those directly associated with should get credit though. Beyond the achievement, perhaps a minor token bonus, and perhaps a mystery crate.

Spelchek

01-22-2012, 11:22 AM

It's been mentioned before; but maybe having categories for dungeons: Farm and Theme. Farm dungeons defiantly have a place in dungeon making, although as a former decorator it pains me to say that. I think well put together farm dungeons (even w/o furniture) need to be recognized. We all know how many millions of tokens we need to get a boss spawner random from spawner booster packs, and running creative dungeons to get that many just isn't worth the time to wait for a room's furniture to totally load before fighting stuff. I create dungeons so my friends and I can enjoy the sights and humor of the scripts. It's like a step up from decorating a house. But it is a little disconcerting that they aren't even getting visits by others, but hey it's fun for me to just create them. When DM first came live I tried it out and first thing that came to mind was, "hey they reinvented Arena..." but of course that was such an epic fail that I had to go to Maj'dul to remember what it was called in the first place. P.S. "We all know how many millions of tokens we need to get a boss spawner random from spawner booster packs" is a lie, because I have no idea how many it takes since I still haven't gotten one... @&$*% you Sony! ...memories of SWG going live and working my butt off to get a Jedi slot only to realize it was unattainable at the time.

ozien2

01-22-2012, 01:47 PM

<cite>apwyork wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not a bug, but a pointless method that allows griefing is that some players, not many, but some, place a decent amount of mobs all the way through a dungeon so you spend 30-60 minutes working through it to get the a point where the creator thought it would be freakin hysterical to put about 50 mobs in one spot so there's no way to kill anything before you get killed, thus making the dungeon unfinishable and the time spent a total waste. Seen too many people complain about this to think "No, they must be making it up. Nobody would be that infantile...but then I realize this is eq2, there's plenty of people that infantile."</blockquote>^ This. I suggested (a while ago now) that dungeon creators be required to complete their own creations in order to publish them. ie You need to be able to run a party through your own dungeons (without publishing them), and you only see the Publish button after you go through the red portal at the end of this "Publishing run". Unfinishable dungeons would never get published this way.An additional benefit would be that publication information could then include how many players were running the dungeon and how long it took to get to the end of the Publishing run. Then you could avoid the dungeons that took 5 hours for six players to get through. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />