Dear Sony- Shadowknight Tank struggling to hold threat, Any Suggestions? [Archive]

Uthel

01-17-2012, 04:26 AM

Firstly, I am going to assume you are doing proper shadowknight dps, as this is very important to holding aggro on a shadowknight, obviously. Speccing properly and playing right and all that - no brainer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If hate is an issue, try stacking your groups with classes that make it easier to hold hate - Coercers, Troubadors, and Dirges. Also a good swashbuckler can take a lot of the hard work out of it.A couple of tricks I've found with my SK -It doesn't hurt sometimes when you're in your combat art/single target spell spamming phase to pause briefly to ensure your autoattacks land - pretend you're a melee dps scout for a bit and time those autos!On inc - what I do is combat leadership, unholy blessing, and hateful respite myself - then when in range of the mob - cast zealous smite, while it's casting, turn on your ranged autoattack, and immediately deathtouch. If everything goes properly, all three will land at the exact same time, giving you a fantastic head start on aggro control.Lastly, and this is more for if you plan on finding yourself in groups without ideal hate management conditions (I have my SK set up this way for off-tanking on raids from the mage group), is to reforge ALL of your dps mod into hate mod. It lowers your autoattack dps a little bit, but let me tell you, walking around with ~60 hate mod solo is a beautiful thing.I hope this helps - but if your problem is trying to hold hate from veteran dps'ers with much better gear than you - you have no hope. Bring lesser dpsers until you get better gear.

Rageincarnate

01-18-2012, 02:53 PM

1. Grind that aa. Without aa at about 200 at minimum, you dont really have a chance.2. Don't give up! It will be frusterating. 3. one of those most annoying things you'll hear is running up to mobs and hearing that lovely .. schoonngg sound. That's a resist. One of you biggest problems will be landing hits. Melee and spell. You can adorn for +weapon skills for melee hit rates and + disruption for spells. 4. A STUNNED MOB CANT RUN AWAY- as simple as that.. use your kick that has a stun and your shield bash that also has a stun. It will help you land extra hits, before it tries to run off after that pesky beastlord.5. If you have to proxy pull, you can always snare it and still get the ranged attack in. Ranged attacks hit fairly hard and reliably. 6. Heals count as AGRO! the endline in the shadowknight tree is a ward. Which you can cast before combat and when they hit you, you get extra agro.7. + hate modifier is the biggest hate boost you can get. +100 hate is the cap 8. double bard groups are amazing for hate. All your stuff will actually hit the mobs.9. These are tips just off the top of my head.. try em some might work some might not. Don't give up, your playing the most difficult tank class at the moment. (UNGEARED AND NOT MAX AA - DONT TROLL PLEASE)

Umub

01-18-2012, 08:37 PM

The previous two posts have lots of good advice. I'll throw a few more things that might help.<ul><li>Install ACT and use it religously. You need to know what kind of DPS you are putting out compared to the other members of your group. If you SK is putting on 10,000 DPS and another group member is doing 100,000 DPS you are going to have trouble. FYI - My SK regularly does 30-50K DPS in DOV heroic instances and DPS is where your hate comes from.</li><li>Use +Hate adornments. You can use three +Hate white adornments - wrist x2 and hands.</li><li>Make sure the DPS you are grouping with lets you turn the mob before attackings - asking nicely and often helps</li><li>Know which of your spells/abilities you can use while moving to turn a mob - off the top of my head<ul><li>Auto attack</li><li>Both green taunts</li><li>Kick, Shield bash and the AOE knockdown from AA tree</li><li>Doom Judgement and one other Blue AOE</li><li>Death March</li><li>a few more I can't remember right now</li></ul></li><li>Run instances with people who have similar gear and AAs so you are totally out matched by the DPS in your group.</li></ul>

Odys

01-20-2012, 06:58 AM

The gear differences have become so ridiculous that if you are not well equiped (as example you have rygor ...) you won't be able to keep the agro over raid geared dps.As a healer and a tank (playing a paladin so agro holding is way easier than with a sk, simple he never loose agro ) . I consider that when a well geared dps take agro over a less geared tank , the dps is faulty. Most of the agro issues are generated by poor dps gameplay, generally coming from people playing only dps classes.If your build is hate oriented, if you use a 1 shield and the defensive position, if you used your best taunt on pull etc ...eayh yeah you did as the people advised you abobe in the thread ... and you do have hate gain adorns .... yeah yeah ....IF you still loose agro you can be sure that it's the dps fault, now that they have an agrometer they have no excuse.

akin99

01-20-2012, 09:07 AM

Thank you for this Uthel. It has made me SK much better at tanking and more fun to play

Seiffil

01-20-2012, 10:18 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>The gear differences have become so ridiculous that if you are not well equiped (as example you have rygor ...) you won't be able to keep the agro over raid geared dps.As a healer and a tank (playing a paladin so agro holding is way easier than with a sk, simple he never loose agro ) . I consider that when a well geared dps take agro over a less geared tank , the dps is faulty. Most of the agro issues are generated by poor dps gameplay, generally coming from people playing only dps classes.If your build is hate oriented, if you use a 1 shield and the defensive position, if you used your best taunt on pull etc ...eayh yeah you did as the people advised you abobe in the thread ... and you do have hate gain adorns .... yeah yeah ....IF you still loose agro you can be sure that it's the dps fault, now that they have an agrometer they have no excuse.</blockquote>Blame dps all you want, but when you have a substantial gap in gear between the dps and the tank, it can be extremely difficult for the tank to hold aggro. About the only thing some dps classes can do at that point is just not attack. I've had tanks who were unable to hold aggro from my ranger's auto attack alone, even after I waited til 80%, and my ranger was not raid geared by any means.You want to fix aggro mechanics you don't just lay the blame on the dps classes, honestly more blame lies on the ineffectiveness of the deaggro tools available. Evade, stalk, ignorant bliss, just don't really do much for deaggro when you consider how hard auto attacks and CAs are hitting. The only effective deaggros out there are the ones with a hate position decrease. This was an issue during SF, and it has only gotten worse in DoV as the dps gaps increased.

Aull

01-22-2012, 11:47 PM

"You want to fix aggro mechanics you don't just lay the blame on the dps classes, honestly more blame lies on the ineffectiveness of the deaggro tools available". Absolutely correct.Another issue is that fighter taunts still are not even close to powerful enough. It is insulting really. If true dps classes damage keeps increasing as it does fighers will never have a chance.

TheGeneral

01-23-2012, 12:55 PM

Fighter ability to hold hate without a stacked group is pretty dismal right now. A tank without raid gear doesn't stand much of a chance unless your a class that can put a hate siphon on whoever is the highest dps class in your group. We all ahve a few tools that help some, but nothing is really up to where it should be right now. All classes should work to maximize their DPS, including tanks. However, a tanks DPS should NOT be their primary means of holding aggro and right now, thats how it is.

Nrgy

01-23-2012, 02:28 PM

It is nothing short od silliness to think that a Tank w/o raid gear could hold aggro on a mob against DPS with raid gear. Of course they cannot. It is not designed that way and it doesn't work that way. Beyond that when not in optimial group setups ensured hate gain thru adornments and AA selection will go along way, hopefully the DPS will do the same to one degree or another, within reason.I find a lot of Tanks fail to generate initial aggro when pulling and when adding in eager DPS it is an equation for an aggro mess. SK's can certainly generate all the aggro in the world when they desire to stack it up and when equally geared SK Tanks and DPS group w/o Bards or Chanters they can handle aggro just fine, as long as they understand and focus on it.

Rageincarnate

01-23-2012, 05:01 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find a lot of Tanks fail to generate initial aggro</blockquote>That.. That is the important part. Now tell me why. Why do they fail to generate initial agro? I'm not trolling i'm seriously asking you to look at it and tell me why. With the assumption that x tank pushed their "agro" buttons.

Nrgy

01-23-2012, 06:41 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find a lot of Tanks fail to generate initial aggro</blockquote>That.. That is the important part. Now tell me why. Why do they fail to generate initial agro? I'm not trolling i'm seriously asking you to look at it and tell me why. With the assumption that x tank pushed their "agro" buttons.</blockquote>Becasue Body pulls and Arrows don't cause a great deal of threat and DPS can't not push the button that goes Boom! (double negative)Cases where body pulls are necessary at times and most expereinced players know where they are required and hold off a few seconds. Case where you charge in is no place for arrows, leave those for the Ranjas. SK's have plenty of big Boomers to establist their initial threat. Their biggest problem in mid fight, where they have to "work" for it.

Rageincarnate

01-23-2012, 07:27 PM

ok, your talking about shadowknights.The big booms. I'm going to assume you are talking about deathtouch. With a base reuse of 5 mins?ok, lets take a random ungeared sk. He just dinged 90 hes all excited to tank his first zone. How much is that deathtouch going to hit for?Now, take that same scenario. Lets assume epic and about 275aaNow tell me the average hits for these classes with the same gear.rangerconjnecrobeastlordwizzywarlockbrigIm serious.. I'd love to see your inputother tanks

Bruener

01-23-2012, 07:33 PM

The problem is that SKs, and Zerkers as well, are a much more DPS reliant class for Agro. Its always been that way.DoV though they did not stay where they were before in relation to raid wide, or group wide DPS.For starters they need to seriously rework the SK epic buff. It is "supposed" to be a monster Agro generating tool and yet it doesn't with how heals work in this game. The healers whole goal is to keep you green so you actually get minimal healing, hence minimal Agro generation, from them. Furthermore in a situation where you might be able to lifetap yourself some they have not balanced Lifetaps to where they should be in relation to HP pool after they nerfed heal crits.Rework the SK epic buff to the monster hate generating tool it is supposed to be and we will be back on trach and balanced to the Fighters that have a lot more reactive hate and siphons.

Rageincarnate

01-24-2012, 01:43 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is that SKs, and Zerkers as well, are a much more DPS reliant class for Agro. Its always been that way.DoV though they did not stay where they were before in relation to raid wide, or group wide DPS.For starters they need to seriously rework the SK epic buff. It is "supposed" to be a monster Agro generating tool and yet it doesn't with how heals work in this game. The healers whole goal is to keep you green so you actually get minimal healing, hence minimal Agro generation, from them. Furthermore in a situation where you might be able to lifetap yourself some they have not balanced Lifetaps to where they should be in relation to HP pool after they nerfed heal crits.Rework the SK epic buff to the monster hate generating tool it is supposed to be and we will be back on trach and balanced to the Fighters that have a lot more reactive hate and siphons.</blockquote>I don't care about sk's in general. I care about tanking in general. I was merely trying to point out that tank abilities didn't scale correctly along with everyone else coupled with the fact that only half of those abilites land on the mob.

Nrgy

01-24-2012, 02:06 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok, your talking about shadowknights.The big booms. I'm going to assume you are talking about deathtouch. With a base reuse of 5 mins?ok, lets take a random ungeared sk. He just dinged 90 hes all excited to tank his first zone. How much is that deathtouch going to hit for?Now, take that same scenario. Lets assume epic and about 275aaNow tell me the average hits for these classes <DPS> with the same gear.Im serious.. I'd love to see your inputother tanks</blockquote>First off, I don't consider a fighter to be a Tank unless they have 277+ AA. Nor do I consider a fighter with any CA/Spell under Expert to be a Tank. And for that matter in any gear less that a full set of Thurgadin gear and the quested Ry'Gorr chest piece and the jewelerys that comes from quests AFTER Icy Fingers.Harmtouch at A3 will hit for well over 50K and later on when better geared and mastered it will hit for well over 100K. Add in Zelous Smite as your 1-2 punch and a SK has established plenty of aggro to get into their threat cycle. In the minimum gear to be considered a Tank (see above) a SK will parse easily in the high 30's and low 40's in any heroic around. When the gear gets better so does the DPS and higher heroic or raid geared SK's are easily able to hit high 60's and even peak into the 80's as far as DPS goes for ZW parses. Add in hate modifiers and hate transfers there is plenty of threat being generated to hold aggro off of the pure DPS classes (except maybe the obscenity called Beastlords)Threat in general, since DOV, is certainly a horrible problem due to the failure of SOE to scale the threat values of the fighters CAs, there is no denying that. However, in a raid situation Dirges and Coercers make all these issues go away, not to mention Assassins and Swashbucklers. In heroics one or the other is plenty to overcome the threat generation shortfalls due to gear/AA/CA/Spell/Knowledge/Experience. Crusaders in particular have AA for more Hate Gain and adornments will make a large positive impact to threat as well. Self buffed Hate Gain should be as high as it can be for the situation the fighter is trying to Tank for. Raiding SK's need support from Dirges and Coercers, but normally have both. In Heroics the adornments and AA will usually get the job done if the Tank is even close to being in a paired group (gear score).All that being said, there is NO WAY a undergeared, under-adorned, under-AA'ed and under CA/Spelled fighter will be able to hold aggro off of a geared DPS class. That does NOT mean that they can't Tank, but it means they should actually try and be ready to Tank. If a fighter doesn't have the gear, the AA or the CA/Spell quality all upgraded as high as they can afford to get it, then they simply are not TANKS, they are DPS fighters. Is there really ANY exceuse not to have all Expert or better spells or have the minimum gear available for FREE or have the proper adornments for what they are trying to do or try and call themselves a Tank when many of the tools they need to do the job actually come from higher levels of AA. I have no tolerance for lazy fighters, but will work with fighters that actually try for be TANKS.In Summary: Fighters with less than 277 AA, Expert CA/Spell, Thurgadin carfter / Ry'Gorr quests chest / second tier quest jewelery and No or wrong adornments are not TANKS...

Rageincarnate

01-24-2012, 02:39 PM

so you agree. Threat scaling for tanking does not match dps potential. Thank you.I don't agree with some of your other points, but it's not important. (I will be more clear about the meaning of ungeared to prevent future tangents)One thing that bothers me that you didn't mention at all was melee hit rates. Hate mod/procs/threat/self buffs do nothing on a miss. So all of those amazing things.. are squat unless you actually hit the mob. I was hoping you would go there.

Rosss

01-24-2012, 04:27 PM

Here are the basics: <ol type="1"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">AA’s: (277 min on any of the classes)</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Gear: (Thurg or better with full white and yellow adorns) with at least thurg/ry’gor faction jewels. See eq2wire adorn calculator for guidance.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">TIME YOUR AUTOATTACKS: This is more than just a ship passing in the night. For any of the fighter classes autoattack accounts for at least 40% of overall dps. And thus accounts for 40% of your overall hate generation (at a min). Do not disregard damage: Remember 1 damage = 1 hate (FACT). For math and science behind this search eq2flames.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Complete the ER quest (no really this is so basic I shouldn’t even have to mention it).</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Taunts are not your primary source of agro generation, and unless you have a coercer in the group you should never prioritize a taunt over a damaging ability. The exception to this is an AoE taunt on pull.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Communicate with your group. If you are having trouble holding agro at the beginning tell them to back the eff off until you have the mob properly positioned and set. If you are losing agro in the middle or end of the fight or to AoE classes communicate that with the group asking for alternatives etc. Tanks who communicate keep the group happy.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">If you can’t or are not willing to (at a minimum) do the above things, then just stop…pick a new class in which you will be more successful tanking really is not for everyone.</li></ol>

Rosss

01-24-2012, 04:37 PM

Melee hit rates are huge. When you are not hitting your are not holding agro. Crit rates are huge (see above) One of the most important concepts people (especially tanks because they cannot get away with it as much as other classes) forget is that they consistently get into zones in which their gear does not allow them to be successful. Eq2 is so gear centric and even if there are no gear checks for instances anymore, knowing what your stats are and what the minimums are for each zone and not overextending yourself is probably the single most effective thing you can do as any class to be successful (I am talking in DoV).

Nrgy

01-24-2012, 08:16 PM

<cite>Rosss@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee hit rates are huge. When you are not hitting your are not holding agro.Crit rates are huge (see above)One of the most important concepts people (especially tanks because they cannot get away with it as much as other classes) forget is that they consistently get into zones in which their gear does not allow them to be successful. Eq2 is so gear centric and even if there are no gear checks for instances anymore, knowing what your stats are and what the minimums are for each zone and not overextending yourself is probably the single most effective thing you can do as any class to be successful (I am talking in DoV). </blockquote>That is a funny thing you brought up .. and one that I have maybe taken for granted for year and years. Tanks much over gear zones where healers and ranged DPS can easily undergear zones. It is such an age old and basic concept. Tanks must be fully aware of their gear and what gear the zone requires. This does not mean that tank must have the gear from the zone before they can do the zone, so don't anyone get all up in arms. It means that Tanks much use progression gearing while healer and ranged DPS can easily skip gear tiers and survive just fine.<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>so you agree. Threat scaling for tanking does not match dps potential. Thank you.I don't agree with some of your other points, but it's not important. (I will be more clear about the meaning of ungeared to prevent future tangents)One thing that bothers me that you didn't mention at all was melee hit rates. Hate mod/procs/threat/self buffs do nothing on a miss. So all of those amazing things.. are squat unless you actually hit the mob. I was hoping you would go there.</blockquote>Of course I agree, this effects my Necro (pet) equally as much as it effect my SK and my Brusier. When SF was release and the T9 CA/Spells were released it was fine. Now with the over inflated stats and the utter and complete failure on SOE's part to not go back and scale those is beyond contempt. I will immediately say that as the fighter tank gears up it becomes much less of a problem, but when first starting out it is far from easy. When those 2010 SF T9 threat CA's were added they carried the exact same threat modifiers as they do now. But now the DPS has tripled and the threat generation has remained constant. There are serveral (dozen) threads discussing this under the other forum topics, although I have to admit I haven't seen one talking about this for quite some time. Hit rates is also a topic found more recently in quite a few threads. Some claiming a hit rate as low as 40% while other claim 80% or more. You're right, of course, without "hitting" the mob you are not directly generating Hate. Beyond that the Accuracy stat seems to help here, but beyond reforging and a very few specific items it is a very hard stat to stack.I am just commenting on the "New undergeared tank that just dinged 90" and saying that there is NO exceuse for not being prepared if, and thats a big IF, they want to call themselves a tank. I am saying that even with the non-scaling values, on 2+ year old designed threat tools that have sorely been neglected and have fallen in effectiveness by more than 50%, a tank will still be able to do a good job TANKING if they prepare themselves. Failing to properly gear, gain "enough" AA or skipping the adornment process is not the fault of old thread values. If a "new undergeared tank that just dinged 90" had their threat values doubled or tripled, would they now be a TANK, just becasue they would be able to hold aggro better... hardly. It is a package deal ... IMO .. you either are or are not a TANK.

Odys

01-25-2012, 12:12 PM

As a paladin i agree, my agro relies on amend and sceal of heroism. So my agro is quite independant of my gear. My group AAs are 100% oriented for better aggro holding, but it won't be enough without the masssive transferts my class do have.So i feel lucky cause i can hold agro even with HM geared dps, while being in rygor.The situation is totally different for Sks or other tanks, many must rely too much on their damage, it pushes them to do crazy things : using a 2 hander, being in offensive stance (since level ~30-40 i never even purchased an offensive stance updgrade, not even the adept version ... simply because my mitigation and my hate is much better in def).According to me the hate values on taunts are too small, may be we miss taunt double cast and taunt flurries ...I have often been in groups in which "smart" dps were holding back their dps (someone mentionned taking aggro even using auto attack lately). Yeah sadly it can happen, but what happen more often is the situation of low IQ raid dps that open any fight with his favorite raid type sequence. Then he will blame that tank, forgetting that his raid tank is buffed with a coercer, receives massive transferts, is adorned from feet to head with hate modifiers etc ....As a dps evaluating a tank gear is easy, just look as his hps. If you have more than him/she you should (unless the tank is a paladin) dps slowly and progressibely on first pull to see how aggro is moving.

Rageincarnate

01-25-2012, 03:01 PM

hit rates.. my personal pain.I have personally had as low as a 38% melee hit rate. I've had my absolute high hit rate as 91% in raids.Here are my current stats. 751 slashing 38% strikethru 8% accuracy (SELF BUFFED)i tanked tower x2 2 days ago and i checked my hit rate. 75% Group was sk,troub,illy,def,ranger, wizThat group i fully admit does not debuff defensive stats at all.. But i seriously don't think i should be missing THAT much in such an easy zone. And looking at ACT the non hits were all blocks.. which the strikethru stat should have taken care of. BUTTTTTT, it didn't hence my post.I do believe though if someone tells me i'm missing or getting blocked on my autoattack because i suck.. i do think i might strangle that person.

Bauglir

01-25-2012, 04:45 PM

<cite>Rosss@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are the basics: <ol type="1"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">AA’s: (277 min on any of the classes) - Disagree. After about 240, for most classes, your just missing 1 AA spell that has a large cooldown. For some classes the AA min is really 240. But obviously grinding all the way to 320 is now the requirment. So much wasted time.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Gear: (Thurg or better with full white and yellow adorns) with at least thurg/ry’gor faction jewels. See eq2wire adorn calculator for guidance. - Disagree. Thurg is on par with RW/SG crap. For a tank anything less then mostly X4 em means they can't tank on DoV x4 em raids. I have seen it. The gear requirment for tanks is VERY high.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">TIME YOUR AUTOATTACKS: This is more than just a ship passing in the night. For any of the fighter classes autoattack accounts for at least 40% of overall dps. And thus accounts for 40% of your overall hate generation (at a min). Do not disregard damage: Remember 1 damage = 1 hate (FACT). For math and science behind this search eq2flames.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Complete the ER quest (no really this is so basic I shouldn’t even have to mention it).</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Taunts are not your primary source of agro generation, and unless you have a coercer in the group you should never prioritize a taunt over a damaging ability. The exception to this is an AoE taunt on pull.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Communicate with your group. If you are having trouble holding agro at the beginning tell them to back the eff off until you have the mob properly positioned and set. If you are losing agro in the middle or end of the fight or to AoE classes communicate that with the group asking for alternatives etc. Tanks who communicate keep the group happy.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">If you can’t or are not willing to (at a minimum) do the above things, then just stop…pick a new class in which you will be more successful tanking really is not for everyone.</li></ol></blockquote>

Nrgy

01-25-2012, 06:16 PM

This is why Crusaders need to have 277 AA.... I am actually suprised that poster above would say low AA but high gear is OK to tank with, when it really should be high AA and high gear, but high AA and medium gear would be OK to start off as OT.<table style="margin: 0px; border: black 3px solid;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" align="left">Zealous Smite</td><td align="right">Rank (*/1)</td></tr><tr><td width="25%" align="left">Heroic</td><td width="50%"> </td><td width="25%" align="right">2 point</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Requires Requires 48 points in <a title="Category:Crusader Heroic AAs" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Category:Crusader_Heroic_AAs">Heroic</a>Requires 275 points spent gobally</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Zealous Smite inflicts crushing damage upon the target encounter and cures the crusader's allies. This spell cannot be resisted. This spell can be cast while under control effects.</td><td align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td>Target</td><td>Enemy</td></tr><tr><td>Power</td><td>161</td></tr><tr><td>Casting</td><td>2.0 seconds</td></tr><tr><td>Recast</td><td>1 minute</td></tr><tr><td>Range</td><td>Up to 25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td>Effect Radius</td><td>25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Effects:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><ul><li>Inflicts 3342 - 6121 crusing damage on target encounter </li><li>Dispels 99 levels of any hostile effects on group members (AE) </li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table>Even if your hit rate is low in a tofs x2 run, I bet you still didn't have any issues with threat.

Bauglir

01-25-2012, 06:47 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why Crusaders need to have 277 AA.... I am actually suprised that poster above would say low AA but high gear is OK to tank with, when it really should be high AA and high gear, but high AA and medium gear would be OK to start off as OT.<table style="margin: 0px; border: black 3px solid;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" align="left">Zealous Smite</td><td align="right">Rank (*/1)</td></tr><tr><td width="25%" align="left">Heroic</td><td width="50%"> </td><td width="25%" align="right">2 point</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Requires Requires 48 points in <a title="Category:Crusader Heroic AAs" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Category:Crusader_Heroic_AAs">Heroic</a>Requires 275 points spent gobally</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Zealous Smite inflicts crushing damage upon the target encounter and cures the crusader's allies. This spell cannot be resisted. This spell can be cast while under control effects.</td><td align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td>Target</td><td>Enemy</td></tr><tr><td>Power</td><td>161</td></tr><tr><td>Casting</td><td>2.0 seconds</td></tr><tr><td>Recast</td><td>1 minute</td></tr><tr><td>Range</td><td>Up to 25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td>Effect Radius</td><td>25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Effects:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><ul><li>Inflicts 3342 - 6121 crusing damage on target encounter </li><li>Dispels 99 levels of any hostile effects on group members (AE) </li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table>Even if your hit rate is low in a tofs x2 run, I bet you still didn't have any issues with threat.</blockquote>Take a close look.. 1 minute recast is an eternity. We are talking EM raids right. I have NEVER been on a hard mode X4 but by then the point about AA is moot.. everyone is 277+..Since I am not raiding with ubers.. I have run into a EM raids where the tanks had better AA and crapier gear and the result was a mess.Eveything is important but in tank land you need the best posisble gear and ideally yes full AA.. its why I will never seriously play my SK or my Zerker. Raises the whole gear thing to an insane level..but seriously.. for tanks.. AA will not make up for bad gear.. won't happen.

Nrgy

01-25-2012, 07:27 PM

<cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why Crusaders need to have 277 AA.... I am actually suprised that poster above would say low AA but high gear is OK to tank with, when it really should be high AA and high gear, but high AA and medium gear would be OK to start off as OT.<table style="margin: 0px; border: black 3px solid;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" align="left">Zealous Smite</td><td align="right">Rank (*/1)</td></tr><tr><td width="25%" align="left">Heroic</td><td width="50%"> </td><td width="25%" align="right">2 point</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Requires Requires 48 points in <a title="Category:Crusader Heroic AAs" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Category:Crusader_Heroic_AAs">Heroic</a>Requires 275 points spent gobally</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Zealous Smite inflicts crushing damage upon the target encounter and cures the crusader's allies. This spell cannot be resisted. This spell can be cast while under control effects.</td><td align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td>Target</td><td>Enemy</td></tr><tr><td>Power</td><td>161</td></tr><tr><td>Casting</td><td>2.0 seconds</td></tr><tr><td>Recast</td><td>1 minute</td></tr><tr><td>Range</td><td>Up to 25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td>Effect Radius</td><td>25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Effects:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><ul><li>Inflicts 3342 - 6121 crusing damage on target encounter </li><li>Dispels 99 levels of any hostile effects on group members (AE) </li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table>Even if your hit rate is low in a tofs x2 run, I bet you still didn't have any issues with threat.</blockquote>Take a close look.. 1 minute recast is an eternity. We are talking EM raids right. I have NEVER been on a hard mode X4 but by then the point about AA is moot.. everyone is 277+..Since I am not raiding with ubers.. I have run into a EM raids where the tanks had better AA and crapier gear and the result was a mess.Eveything is important but in tank land you need the best posisble gear and ideally yes full AA.. its why I will never seriously play my SK or my Zerker. Raises the whole gear thing to an insane level..but seriously.. for tanks.. AA will not make up for bad gear.. won't happen.</blockquote>60 second recast turns into less than 45 (with a minimum casting speed of 30) by the time self buffed Casting speed is added that you're unable to reforge. Add in any raid buffs you might get by accident and you are well under that 60 seconds. This AA ability can be cast under just about any condition such as; stun, fear, daze and charm (iirc), it carries a group wide cure that effects all hostile effects (not curses) and it can be cast ON THE RUN. The damage on it is effected by both Pot and CB and yes it can, and usually does, Crit. It hits ENCOUNTER mobs for some serious damage. When a crusader tank says "Charging in 5", this ability goes a long way in establishing initial aggro and even more when accompanied with SK'd Furor (+20% spell damage) and a quick Harmtouch. It is a spike in aggro that even the DPS will have to work to catch up too by which time the threat buttons or other high hate abilities can be used (Grave Sac).No raiding guild is going to have undergeared fighters trying to be raid tanks, EM or HM. Fighter gear "feels" like it drops more often than anything else, maybe becasue raids are only carrying 2 to 4 fighters a session. Gearing up an OT or a replacement tank is done in a matter of days not weeks, if the raiding guild cares to focus on it. I discount the whole notion of undergeared Main tanks. Undergeared OT's will gear up quickly, but even without the gear can still act like a tank when the situations call for it, ie. the MT goes down but will be back up and back in position by the time you can count to 5.AA, along with Adornments, AA setup and rotation, are the only things that a fighter needs to concentrate on (pre-raid gear must be assumed). Any fighter not coming to the table with the proper tools will fail long before they are asked to be the MT. IMO, there is NOT excuse for a fighter that deems themselves a Tank to have an empty toolbox. Raids are NOT the place to gain AA, at least not the ones below the basic amount to actually have tools in your toolbox, sorry.

Rageincarnate

01-25-2012, 07:31 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is why Crusaders need to have 277 AA.... I am actually suprised that poster above would say low AA but high gear is OK to tank with, when it really should be high AA and high gear, but high AA and medium gear would be OK to start off as OT.<table style="margin: 0px; border: black 3px solid;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" align="left">Zealous Smite</td><td align="right">Rank (*/1)</td></tr><tr><td width="25%" align="left">Heroic</td><td width="50%"> </td><td width="25%" align="right">2 point</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Requires Requires 48 points in <a title="Category:Crusader Heroic AAs" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/wiki/Category:Crusader_Heroic_AAs">Heroic</a>Requires 275 points spent gobally</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">Zealous Smite inflicts crushing damage upon the target encounter and cures the crusader's allies. This spell cannot be resisted. This spell can be cast while under control effects.</td><td align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td>Target</td><td>Enemy</td></tr><tr><td>Power</td><td>161</td></tr><tr><td>Casting</td><td>2.0 seconds</td></tr><tr><td>Recast</td><td>1 minute</td></tr><tr><td>Range</td><td>Up to 25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td>Effect Radius</td><td>25.0 meters</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3">Effects:</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><ul><li>Inflicts 3342 - 6121 crusing damage on target encounter </li><li>Dispels 99 levels of any hostile effects on group members (AE) </li></ul></td></tr></tbody></table>Even if your hit rate is low in a tofs x2 run, I bet you still didn't have any issues with threat.</blockquote>So your saying a crusader is not a tank until they have zealous smite?? ermm for me it hits anywhere between 70-90k ishI must have missed something.. Thats, errrmm 1 scout flurry. Are you agreeing with me in a really weird way?

Nrgy

01-26-2012, 12:02 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your saying a crusader is not a tank until they have zealous smite?? ermm for me it hits anywhere between 70-90k ishI must have missed something.. Thats, errrmm 1 scout flurry. Are you agreeing with me in a really weird way?</blockquote>I DO agree with your position on the oversight of SOE to scale threat from abilities that were added more than two years ago, since one year ago they tripled the DPS factors and ignored forgot to do the same to threat abilities. This issue has been addressed many times in the past in several other threads.A Crusader is not a Tank until they decide to be a Tank and until they decide to be a Tank they are only a fighter, and a poor DPSer. A level 10 fighter can be a Tank just as easily as a level 90 fighter. The decision involves being consciously competent in what the fighter has decided to do, which it Tank. That means Gear, that means AA, that means techniques, that means encounter knowledge, that means Adornments, that means group makeup, the list goes on and on. These are things that DPS and Utility classes do not need to care about, although they should at least try to smooth the curve. So, do I think a crusader needs Zealous Smite to be considered a Tank? My answer is, I think they need 277+ AA to have the tools to be able to do the job they decided to do. That sounds similar to a "Yes", but it is really a "Why wouldn't they have it already". And I do concur with the 70 - 90k hit and sometimes even more.Zealous Smite is not the epiphany which makes a Crusader a Tank, but that ability is sure a nice tool to put into the Tanks toolbox. I wouldn't leave home w/o it. When I say a Crusader w/o ZS isn't a Tank, it is not becasue of the ability itself as much as it is that the Crusader has not yet "decided" to be a Tank (becasue they have < 277 AA).

Bruener

01-26-2012, 12:44 PM

Really? ZS is mediocre at best. Yeah you can cast it on the run, yeah if for some reason you just happen to have detriments that the healers didn't get doing their job it will cure them. The damage is on the low end when you compare it to what a DPSer is putting out though.Manawall is a tank weapon, but due to everything having power drains it is a poor one.Soulclaim is an awesome tank weapon for heroic due to the build up of CB for the group and in some raid encounters the power regen can been very significant.Its simple. SKs do not have a siphon like some tanks and have less in taunts than other tanks. They are a class that was designed around DPS being more important for their agro than any other Fighter along with Zerkers. What DoV did was cripple that type of play style compared to what it was in the past and they haven't gotten around to fixing things...just like the survivability and snap capability of a SK too.Really the class needs another update to catch up with current mechanics.

Rageincarnate

01-26-2012, 01:28 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really? ZS is mediocre at best. Yeah you can cast it on the run, yeah if for some reason you just happen to have detriments that the healers didn't get doing their job it will cure them. The damage is on the low end when you compare it to what a DPSer is putting out though.Manawall is a tank weapon, but due to everything having power drains it is a poor one.Soulclaim is an awesome tank weapon for heroic due to the build up of CB for the group and in some raid encounters the power regen can been very significant.Its simple. SKs do not have a siphon like some tanks and have less in taunts than other tanks. They are a class that was designed around DPS being more important for their agro than any other Fighter along with Zerkers. What DoV did was cripple that type of play style compared to what it was in the past and they haven't gotten around to fixing things...just like the survivability and snap capability of a SK too.Really the class needs another update to catch up with current mechanics.</blockquote>Dude.. i get where your coming from. But you know that won't happen. ("SK'S ARE OP!! are all over these forums) Ask for small things.. the things that are honestly important. Point out specific examples and ask for things that make sense and i think you will be suprised.I would honestly.. be happy just having my auto attack hit the mobs. (i'm an sk) Now, this problem is the same for all tanks.. Before you go off on a tangent about monks myth buff. They still have hit rate troubles.Now, the point im going to make here is... hit rates are hurting tanks in all gear ranges all tank types and all mob ranges. Since it changes the entire game.. make it skill based.. reintroduce some new heroic ops with hit rate temp rewards..Make people WORK together to get that buff, and you also solve your problem of tanks soloing heroic content.

Rageincarnate

01-26-2012, 06:49 PM

hell theres all sorts of stuff you do.. hit a 4 part ho and you get a groupwide stoneskin..hit a 3 part and you debuff the mob by something special..hit this 2 part.. and your group gets a physical mit buffhit this 4 part and you get a temp 20 sec 100% ae autoi mean .. it has to be cool effects.. or it will be pointless.Because people WILL complain if you give certain classes abilities.. give it to everyone through skill and teamwork! imo anyways.Make skill mean something again.. instead of a gear check..

Chaim Witz

01-30-2012, 04:06 AM

While the above ideas are good, they are simply a bandaid on the wound. I know everyone likes to see a high parse, but tanks aren't suppose to be good dps. If they were, then why have dps classes? Tanks are for holding aggro and taking a beating.There is a similar post to this in the serk forum. The ideas i posted there were to make taunts be at a 3 to 1 ratio to damage, or simply make taunts (ca's and procs) work off your ma. I feel these would help take care of most of the aggro issues and shouldn't be a difficult fix.I also think that a fighter should be able to spec to a somewhat dps spec, but then basically be a very poor tank. With AAs in their current state that isnt an option. First of all, fighters have to spec dps just to help with aggro. Second, there isnt enough seperation between the specs. There needs to be a more difinitive line. This goes for a lot of classes actually....But if a fighter specs total tank, they should have very low dps, very high hps and hate generation. The opposite for dps spec...higher dps, lower hps and some form of detaunt.