Hello I'm a wizard!

[SacDaddy420]

<p>And I think that I should be able to parse side by side with predators and beastlords.    Currently with your mechanics at the endgame, that is not possible!</p><p>If we cant be boosted to our old place as true T1 dps, then please, change the creation screen wording because we are not masters of destruction anymore.      Thats melee.</p><p>Thanks!  Have a wondertastic day!</p>

[Talanja]

<p>I know plenty of wizards that can parse uptop along with the predators.</p><p>Maybe you should switch around your rotation or ask for a buff or two from troubs and bribe the friendly mystic with a roa once in a while. </p><p>Good luck with those parses!!! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Thank you for your reply!  I'd like to happily inform you that with my gear alone I would dominate any casual dps player you have ever seen!  I am always top parse in any heroic group and I destroy every RW I go to by at least 100K!  But I appreciate your concern!</p><p>However you see Im not talking about Ring War or heroic zones.   I am talking about the end game, upper echelon raid zones and encounters. With all players fully buffed.</p><p>I find the wizard class to spike hard but suffer immediately afterwards, falling down the parse while the aforementioned classes catch up and overtake me once all my tricks and temps are down.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>our wizard doesn't seem to have any problems in drunder challenge zones!</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>oh look its the "our x wizard has no trouble" post.  Hello friend Neiloch!  Sure as one who is in the better position dps wise you would never come and try to sabotage my post!   Thats just goes against human nature!   We're all honest friends here, right friend?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Preds and beastlords have the highest dps potential.  There is no equal to them.  Perhaps if I could Dimensionally Store the servant of ro and have 2+ pets proccing everything the entire zone I wouldnt be so unhappy.  Alas friend, I no summoner. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I am just an average wizard.  And perhaps Im only 1/100th as good at pressing buttons as my esteemed colleague Daray, but I feel I have a point.</p><p>I feel that some minor tweeks such as adding 5 more SDA to time compression would go a long way.  Perhaps even adding a Combat Mastery equivilant for spells would level the playing field.</p><p>All I know is that I dont have the ability to proc something like etox 5000x in ten seconds, and I dont have an auto attack that hits 8x every 2-4 seconds.  I feel mages and sorc's especially, need some love.</p><p>Thank you for your time.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>There isn't a whole lot to this thread to sabotage frankly. Just some personal testimony you are getting beat on parses and assumptions as to why. Do you honestly think people would take your word over their own personal observations?</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Well said friend Neiloch, well said.   You havent let me down in all these years with your constant disagreement with everythig I've ever posted.  So I take it to assume that your stance is that were all equal on the parse?  Interesting hypothesis coming from someone whom I have logged testimony from within your own guild stating you dont even raid that much and have antiquated gear.</p><p>But enough of our friendly exchange, friend.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I stand by my observation that melee is more powerful in this game then casters are.  Made even more clear by the rediculous numbers beastlords who havent even spent more than a week playtime on can blast right by me after I've blown my proverbial load.    When the gear and the buffs are optimized, the wizard is at a disadvantage.  When there isnt 20 adds to proc etox on, every mage is at a disadvantage.</p><p>Is that your idea of equality?</p><p>Please have a splendariffic day</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>I would like to take a minute and calmly reflect and look back over the years.   I remember vividly the so called "whine threads" during KOS - the beginning of TSO made by melee.   You may remember those times back when my class was as OP as yours is now.</p><p>I like how the ideas are put forth by prominant preds that auto attack percentages havent changed much over the years.   Funny....there seems to be a lack of those threads like there was back then.    HMMMMMMM IS THIS A MERE COINCIDENCE?</p><p>You see friend I am just trying to use a proven tactic.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>I am amazed by your intensely hostile stance when I am not even all that sure who you are other than whats listed around your avatar. then again I am terribly bad remembering people on the internet. I can only assume you either misunderstood or have old 'testimony' from within my guild since I currently have a 99% attendance for raiding in my guild, 293 crit mit, 360 crit chance (both self buffed) and approaching 600 multi attack raid buffed.</p><p>Also did you not see the very window of time you just posted?: KoS- TSO. lol yes, the proven tactic of complaining for several YEARS before something is fixed. All while using MUCH better and more organized data than you have provided here along with much more player support.</p><p>My problem is that you have presented a very poor argument for what could be a very legitimate problem, but we wouldn't know that by this thread. Your argument of 'preds are op so buff wizards' with nothing to back it up just isn't very compelling.</p>

[Uthel]

<p>The fact that you fine gentlemen don't know who Sac is, is quite irrelevant - within the circles of veteran wizards, he is respected as a skilled and knowledgeable player, of many classes, not just Wizard.</p><p>The points that he has raised are valid - considering all gear and skill to be even (Ie: same gear and both players hitting all the right buttons at all the right times, coordinating with temps and debuffs, like any veteran dps class does in their sleep), wizards simply cannot compete.</p><p>Attack him all you want, attack me if you'd like - the fact remains that he speaks truth.</p><p>If your wizards are beating your summoners, predators, or beastlords, you need better summoners, predators, and beastlords.</p><p>Full stop.</p>

[Uthel]

<p>If Wizards are indeed intended to be a second class DPS class, then by all means, leave things as they are -</p><p>But I was under the impression that we were intended to tear it up - if that's not the case, we need better hate management tools, because a raid geared wizard is more of a burden in six man groups than a boon - they require dehates in their group and hates for the tank, while predators have transfers, and summoners and beastlords split their hate with their pets.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Friends I am sorry if my tone took a southward direction there for a minute.  You see I am merely passionate about this class.</p><p>We can all only base our assumptions off what we really see in raid every night.  I see summoners using group procs to parse as high if not higher than I am able to espcially when there are mutliple targets involved.   I see both classes of predators being above everyone else 80% of the time.  Thats eighty percent.   I see beastlords who are alts come in and take me by 50K on mobs that are simply burn fights.</p><p>So wheres the niche wizards fall into?  What are the fights we are made for?   AE trash fights?  I do alright but a good warlock does better.   Single target burns?  Thats all predator.  Names with spawned hordes of adds?   Enter the summoner with 50% of his parse being group procs.   I wont even comment anymore on beastlords....</p><p>Every other T1 class has gotten buffed and loved in the past expansion.   Wizards have only gotten a small change to the mechanics of Fiery Blast.   Now, dont get me wrong I use ae's to their maximum effect on my FB when I can...but that still holds no candle to a warlocks 15 seconds of 100% SDA.</p><p>I made this toon in 2005 to be a contender on every parse.    Had I known that I could of had a pet and use procs to parse the same, or use melee and parse higher while being able to use almost every ability on the run and wear chain armor, I probably wouldnt have even rolled a wizard.</p><p>Thats right I would not of even made Sacdaddicus if I knew then what I know now.   I did not choose wizard to be EQUAL to summoners damage wise but not have a pet.  A wizard is supposed to be a beast, a god of destruction unparralled in his arts.  A glass cannon true to the definition.</p><p>I did not roll a wizard to be a T2 dps.   Please give us the ability to be on par with pred's and your new flavor of the month, beastlords.</p>

[Banedon_Toran]

<p>Even an uber casual like me understands that Warlocks outshine Wizards in a way that doesn't make sense given that they are supposed to be equals but for different circumstances (ae v solo).</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Uthel@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The fact that you fine gentlemen don't know who Sac is, is quite irrelevant - within the circles of veteran wizards, he is respected as a skilled and knowledgeable player, of many classes, not just Wizard. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well it is when someone is assuming I know them in such a familiar manner. What IS irrelevant is his status. If he has a valid point an argument from authority is not needed nor should it be used.</span></p><p>The points that he has raised are valid - considering all gear and skill to be even (Ie: same gear and both players hitting all the right buttons at all the right times, coordinating with temps and debuffs, like any veteran dps class does in their sleep), wizards simply cannot compete. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Okay but HOW. Simply saying its unbalanced = not good enough. WHAT exactly is causing imbalance. WHO is buffing who. What fights. Where. With what. Quantifiable DATA that is readily available to anyone with ACT and the ability to observe what is happening in-game.</span></p><p>Attack him all you want, attack me if you'd like - the fact remains that he speaks truth. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I never attacked anyone, I asked for a burden of proof to be met which could only help. On the other hand so far every reply I have made has been met with hostility when I never indicated anyone was wrong. Asking for proof is not inherently an act of defiance or an accusation of being incorrect.</span></p><p>If your wizards are beating your summoners, predators, or beastlords, you need better summoners, predators, and beastlords.</p><p>Full stop.</p></blockquote><p>Beastlords will get some nerfage. If not, at the very least, predators will be right next to sorcerers crying foul. At most a bunch of people will quit because they overtuned their mAcrotransaction class for more money.</p><p>My problem with this thread so far is the complete lack of data. Arguments from authority and personal accounts are not evidence, not data. They are personal testimony which means exactly nothing in regards to actually solving the problem. All I've really asked for is a burden of proof to be met, which is certainly possible, so YOUR case actually has weight to it and maybe someone will care.</p><p>After talking to wizards (who provided proof) I am fairly certain wizards are falling to the wayside, but unless complaints are accompanied by proof and data your complaints mean nothing. They would hold as much weight as bards complaining they don't have enough buffs.</p><p>You cite predators in the past who 'complained' and got 'fixed.' Apparently you completely missed the pages of DATA collected by said classes. I should know I was one of them that was constantly bringing forth data for rangers. AA comparisons, ability comparisons, itemization comparisons, raid parses, test parses, etc. I have no doubt you could find pages of people just saying 'we're broke, its no fun, fix it.' but I guarantee those posts aren't why classes get tweaked.</p><p>I'm trying to help here. Setting a burden of proof and meeting it can only help you if there is indeed a problem. I can't make you though. You can just stick to proclaiming there is a problem over and over and how much you don't like it but don't be surprised if nothing gets changed with such a weak argument.</p><p>What about wizard AA's that don't grow with itemization? How bad is it?</p><p>What about in-demand buffs that help warlocks more than wizards with no equivalent in favor of wizards?</p>

[hoosierdaddy]

<p>I played a warlock from launch until about the time focus (ranged) wands were introduced, which I saw as a terribly executed attempt at bridging the growing gap between predator and sorceror DPS.</p><p>The biggest problem is that in many cases 40-60%+ of predator DPS is coming from auto-attacks and sorcerors have no equivalent. It doesn't matter how many blue spell weapon stat damage bonuses you get or reforge, it's not going to make up for the fact that almost half of all predator damage comes from simply auto-attacking, while sorcerors are playing whack-a-mole with their spells just to keep pace.</p><p>Beastlords are a whole different matter. We all know they were made massively overpowered to sell AoD. This became obvious when a BL in a ( very well-geared) Drunder raid I was tanking consistently topped the parses only a week after a release of the class and without his mythical. Although this example is only anecdotal, I can assure you that I have seen this repeated many more times since then.</p><p>If you want real statistical data on just how OP'd Beastlords are at the moment, go have a look around at the class forums of some of the other EQ2 fan web sites, where players will often post their parses in comparison to one another. There is no comparing anyone's DPS with that of the potential DPS of Beastlords at the moment.</p><p>Even one of the Beastlords posting his parses jokes by saying that to call BL's T1 DPS is a mistake, because it assumes there are other classes in their same tier.</p><p>/thread</p>

[Elskidor]

<p><cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you want real statistical data on just how OP'd Beastlords are at the moment, go have a look around at the class forums of some of the other EQ2 fan web sites, where players will often post their parses in comparison to one another. There is no comparing anyone's DPS with that of the potential DPS of Beastlords at the moment.</p><p>Even one of the Beastlords posting his parses jokes by saying that to call BL's T1 DPS is a mistake, because it assumes there are other classes in their same tier.</p><p>/thread</p></blockquote><p>Wonder how long it will take for them to get nerfed. 1 month, 6 months, 2 years. I'm glad this isn't another Sac attempt to give the Warlock's Focus Casting to the Wizards. Maybe a massive boost to the ranged wands auto attack would help.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>If you want real statistical data on just how OP'd Beastlords are at the moment, go have a look around at the class forums of some of the other EQ2 fan web sites, where players will often post their parses in comparison to one another. There is no comparing anyone's DPS with that of the potential DPS of Beastlords at the moment.<p>Even one of the Beastlords posting his parses jokes by saying that to call BL's T1 DPS is a mistake, because it assumes there are other classes in their same tier.</p><p>/thread</p></blockquote><p>haha no I don't think anyone needs proof for beastlords, that is just common knowledge now. They will need to be nerfed or everyone else boosted for other DPS classes to remain a viable choice. If it stays like this much longer anyone playing a DPS class other than a beastlord is simply wasting everyone's time.</p><p>They will probably get nerfed a while after AoD sales bottom out and a part of the playerbase is then attached/invested to their beastlord. Basically a time-frame to successfully pull off a bait and switch.</p>

[Xenxex]

<p>If the grass is no longer green, seek new pastures.</p>

[Uthel]

<p>To be clear, let's keep this on topic - this is not about beastlords being the highest parsing class in the game atm, that much is a given for anyone paying attention to end game raid content.</p><p>This is about Wizards not being able to compete under the grand majority of circumstances with other dps classes.</p><p>I'd say tier 1 dps classes, but it seems that convention has fallen by the wayside when it was forgotten how much utility summoners offer.</p>

[hoosierdaddy]

<p><cite>Xenxex@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If the grass is no longer green, seek new pastures.</p></blockquote><p>So...every wizard should re-roll?</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Xenxex]

<p><cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xenxex@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If the grass is no longer green, seek new pastures.</p></blockquote><p>So...every wizard should re-roll?</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I could link that dirge thread from not long ago.  </p>

[Jblaze2]

<p>Honestly if I could rank it ATM I'd say it's</p><p>Beastlord</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Assassin</p><p>Ranger</p><p>Wizard.</p><p>Just my 2p. skill for skill. different encounters can offer different results blah blah blah ect ect but raw potential thats how I'd rank it.</p><p>Edit: The last 3 being neck and neck, warlocks having a slight edge and beastlord's just being over the top.</p>

[Fendaria]

<p><p>I throw my full support behind Sac on this.  The situation isn't good for Wizards.  For me, its just depressing.  I'm the best DPS wizard in our guild for the past years and I am consistently beaten by an equally geared assassin ZW and on individual fights.  My best DPS parse on a raid is 70k under his and he will often parse 100k over mine.  (And this is with the assassin not getting Combat Mastery).  The warlock is closer, but he has such a high burst DPS with FC and PB.  I struggle to maintain pace with him, and a good percentage of the fights, I just have no chance at all.  And that is single target, AE is worse.</p><p>The beastlord, well I was prepared to get beaten by beastlords on the parse.  I just didn't think it would happen so quickly or when the beastlord was still so undergeared.  One raid fight the beastlord switched specs and he generated over 90% of power the coercer did and beat both illys easily ... and I beat him by 10k on the parse.</p><p>Its frustrating.  I've raided on this toon for 3+ years.  Its not my casting order.  Its not my AA spec.  We need Dev help.</p><p>Fendaria</p></p>

[ratbast]

it makes no sense for beastlords to not be insanely OP for a while. they cost $40 to buy AoD. I think cyclical class imbalance is a game design choice not an accidental oversight by SOE. supposed to add flavor i guess. i was pretty upset when my favorite class was nerfed, so i rerolled. whats the point of playing an underpowered class? im not one of those ppl who bragged about being sk long before it was popular. lol those guys are funny! if devs pay any attention to this complaint its very sad. other classes have longer history of obsolescence with less love.

[Uthel]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>it makes no sense for beastlords to not be insanely OP for a while. they cost $40 to buy AoD. I think cyclical class imbalance is a game design choice not an accidental oversight by SOE. supposed to add flavor i guess. i was pretty upset when my favorite class was nerfed, so i rerolled. whats the point of playing an underpowered class? im not one of those ppl who bragged about being sk long before it was popular. lol those guys are funny! if devs pay any attention to this complaint its very sad. other classes have longer history of obsolescence with less love.</blockquote><p>I don't think imbalance is the goal - the opposite in fact. I mean, we have a dev whose sole purpose is class balance, do we not?</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I think balance is going quite well for classes that have had problems for a long time, better these days than in ages. Ideally I beleive every class should have their own specific application, and currently, there's no job that a wizard can do that can not be done better by a ranger or warlock.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p>Laws of Averages will show any Dev that the Beastlord class is under powered and thus will hold of nerfing them until more data is available.  The simple fact is that some players are good and others are not.  With the Beastlord class this will be much more prevelant due to the share number of beastlords created.  For every top parsing BL there will be 50 that are under performing and that will casue the data curves for DPS to be skewed for a while yet.</p><p>The class is only 6/7 weeks old.  Not every BL out there is 90/320.  Many are still in the 50/150 range or below.  There are threads with a lot of support asking the solo portion of the BL epic to be NERFED because it is "too hard" for them.  There is a huge number of bad BL's compared to the few which have fully embraced the class to its fullest potential.  I myself have been in groups and raids with BLs of both types.  Where one will easily top the parse and the other will parse <span style="text-decoration: underline;">BELOW</span><strong> </strong>the healers.  It is an application in understanding.</p><p>The issue is that the "good" players will always out perform under any class condtion, but TBH those players are becoming few and far between.  I think the Beastlords will be rebalanced, but not for a while to come yet.</p>

[Mogrim]

<p>I'm no friend of wizards, but I'll play the "I'll scratch your back..." game here. This is an issue for both sorcerer classes, definitely. Warlocks may have our short periods of major spike damage, but...Warlocks and Wizards don't benefit from stats like DPS, AE Autoattack, Haste, Multi Attack, Flurry. Spell Weapon Damage is a joke and a waste of our time.</p><p>When we hit soft cap on our Cast Speed and Reuse, the only thing we can dump points into is the somewhat underwhelming Ability Modifier. When a Predator or Beastlord can hit soft cap DPS/Haste/MA, they are starting to be able to make huge gains in Ability Cast Speed and Ability Reuse. Problem is, Warlocks and Wizards were close to the cast speed and reuse caps expansions ago. On the other hand, Very few scout classes were as stacked in the DPS/Haste/MA trio as they are now. Sorcerers need something... more. Either a slight overcap in cast speed allowed to further reduce cast times (like how Haste can go up to 200) or Spell Flurry... or giving Troubs the Spell Equiv of Combat Mastery...</p>

[Uthel]

<p>Or giving wizards the spell equivalent of combat mastery!</p>

[Bauglir]

<p>I have to admit I read this thread and had a laugh.  To the OP:  It could be worse, imagine if your favorite class was a Conjuror.</p><p>I happen to play a Conjuror and while I am not even close to your level of gear I can tell you that me and other conjurors in similar gear/stats are being destroyed, in regards to dps, by:  scouts, wizards, warlocks, and Sks.</p><p>It is downright embarrising.</p><p>Your right.  BL are killing you.. so are all other scouts.  They are killing me to and I am sure they are killing Conjurors at yoru gear level.</p><p>Summoners need some help as well.</p>

[Lempo]

<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I have to admit I read this thread and had a laugh.  To the OP:  It could be worse, imagine if your favorite class was a Conjuror.<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Pretty much everyone that reads your whole thread will laugh too.</span></p></blockquote>

[Uthel]

<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to admit I read this thread and had a laugh.  To the OP:  It could be worse, imagine if your favorite class was a Conjuror.</p><p>I happen to play a Conjuror and while I am not even close to your level of gear I can tell you that me and other conjurors in similar gear/stats are being destroyed, in regards to dps, by:  scouts, wizards, warlocks, and Sks.</p><p>It is downright embarrising.</p><p>Your right.  BL are killing you.. so are all other scouts.  They are killing me to and I am sure they are killing Conjurors at yoru gear level.</p><p>Summoners need some help as well.</p></blockquote><p>Summoners don't need help.</p><p>You are a support/dps class, who splits their aggro with their pet. If anything you need a nerf to be put back into the position where you cannot compete with sorceror dps. As it stands, you have the potential to compete with wizards.</p>

[Splatterpunk28]

<p><cite>Ariella@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly if I could rank it ATM I'd say it's</p><p>Beastlord</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Assassin</p><p>Ranger</p><p>Wizard.</p><p>Just my 2p. skill for skill. different encounters can offer different results blah blah blah ect ect but raw potential thats how I'd rank it.</p><p>Edit: The last 3 being neck and neck, warlocks having a slight edge and beastlord's just being over the top.</p></blockquote><p>/agree, mostly. </p><p>Unfortunately if you read back to the days of say...launch...this was the 'intended T1 dps' -- sorceror/predators (they were supposed to be equally powerful).   The OP has a point, but it's been the case for quite some time about no sorceror equivalent to predator autoattack dmg.  Betray to a warlock and enjoy the semi-common ground as the predators and when, or if, the time comes that wizards are on top again ... betray again.</p><p>A post here is meaningless.  Compile a nice data chart in testing and post there where devs might actually look.</p>

[Bauglir]

<p>Conjurors are utility?  Honestly we have 1 spell thats worth somehting for dps "utility" and thats ET.</p><p>Thats it.. the damage shields are meaningless.</p><p>We are a varity, "fun" class that is not needed on raids or groups.</p><p>I would be cautious crying nerf.. because honestly I have about a month of rygor geared parsings from developing conjs in various dov low zone group settings to prove we need work.</p><p>I am now working on finding raid conjs that still even play theirs.. its hard to find...they seem to claim that their scout toons get more demand...</p>

[Uthel]

<p>Rygorr gear and DoV Instances are irrelevant to this discussion - you don't realize that DPS classes kill instance mobs so fast it's about as effective as heroic training dummies in refining spell orders.</p><p>You need to find raid conjies? I see that I was mistaken in thinking you were speaking from a position of experience.</p>

[Khiah]

<p> Sac has a very valid point, but sadly its been said repeatedly too long now to think anything will be done about it. Auto attack needs nerfed. To compare a wiz to a pred.. You cant deny that one wearing cloth should be able to compensate by having more dps than someone wearing the more durable chain. One thing to offset another should be the intended.</p>

[Bauglir]

<p><cite>Uthel@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rygorr gear and DoV Instances are irrelevant to this discussion - you don't realize that DPS classes kill instance mobs so fast it's about as effective as heroic training dummies in refining spell orders.</p><p>You need to find raid conjies? I see that I was mistaken in thinking you were speaking from a position of experience.</p></blockquote><p>You amuse me.  Why?  Because you are part of the reason we see class balance issues, you are part of the cycle of complaining which results in the chess game of "nerf and counter nerf".  Honestly this is why the developers don't listen to the boards.  I'm part of this as well at least I keep it to the class boards usually.  This thread however just pushed my buttons.</p><p>You are, as expected, arrogant.  You really don't have much of a reason to be, these games require less skill every new update usually.  I have played at the raid game content in 3 MMOs during the last 10 years, I do not include EQ2 in this count.  I doubt I will progress to raiding full time since my preferred class is seriously at a disadvantage against scouts, warlocks, and Wizards. </p><p>However, comparing raid geared Conj and Wiz players I can tell you right now with no doubt the Wiz will get the raid spot if the raid leader has a choice.  Its true, you know it, I know it.  I have seen it, I am actually in a raid guild, I am an alternate, one of many.  I have raided.  I have seen conjs in nearly full raid gear get passed over for wizs in same gear.  The reason given:  better directed dps.</p><p>My point:  Its not just wizards that need some adjustment...</p><p>Your getting out-parsed by scouts and BLs..</p>

[Uthel]

<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Uthel@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rygorr gear and DoV Instances are irrelevant to this discussion - you don't realize that DPS classes kill instance mobs so fast it's about as effective as heroic training dummies in refining spell orders.</p><p>You need to find raid conjies? I see that I was mistaken in thinking you were speaking from a position of experience.</p></blockquote><p>You amuse me.  Why?  Because you are part of the reason we see class balance issues, you are part of the cycle of complaining which results in the chess game of "nerf and counter nerf".  Honestly this is why the developers don't listen to the boards.  I'm part of this as well at least I keep it to the class boards usually.  This thread however just pushed my buttons.</p><p>You are, as expected, arrogant.  You really don't have much of a reason to be, these games require less skill every new update usually.  I have played at the raid game content in 3 MMOs during the last 10 years, I do not include EQ2 in this count.  I doubt I will progress to raiding full time since my preferred class is seriously at a disadvantage against scouts, warlocks, and Wizards. </p><p>However, comparing raid geared Conj and Wiz players I can tell you right now with no doubt the Wiz will get the raid spot if the raid leader has a choice.  Its true, you know it, I know it.  I have seen it, I am actually in a raid guild, I am an alternate, one of many.  I have raided.  I have seen conjs in nearly full raid gear get passed over for wizs in same gear.  The reason given:  better directed dps.</p><p>My point:  Its not just wizards that need some adjustment...</p><p>Your getting out-parsed by scouts and BLs..</p></blockquote><p>So which is it - you say you've raided in other games, but you don't count eq2 as one of them, and then immediately say you are in a raid guild and have raided?</p><p>I get it, this is a troll attempt. You'll get no more food from me, sir.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Katanah@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Sac has a very valid point, but sadly its been said repeatedly too long now to think anything will be done about it. Auto attack needs nerfed. To compare a wiz to a pred.. You cant deny that one wearing cloth should be able to compensate by having more dps than someone wearing the more durable chain. One thing to offset another should be the intended.</p></blockquote><p>The difference between chain and cloth defense on raids is negligible. It's either you are a tank or not. most people know this or druids would be demanding they be the absolute best healers just because they wear leather.</p><p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Laws of Averages will show any Dev that the Beastlord class is under powered and thus will hold of nerfing them until more data is available.  The simple fact is that some players are good and others are not.  With the Beastlord class this will be much more prevelant due to the share number of beastlords created.  For every top parsing BL there will be 50 that are under performing and that will casue the data curves for DPS to be skewed for a while yet.</p></blockquote><p>After raiding on this game for years I am convinced this is how they do it. They check damage performance via 'world parses' that are incredibly skewed opposed to only looking at the best of the best. Maybe if a class wants to get damage buffed they can get together and decide to all start purposely sucking at their class to bring the world average down a bunch.</p>

[Uthel]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The difference between chain and cloth defense on raids is negligible. It's either you are a tank or not.</p></blockquote><p>This is true, although there are some situations where a defensively specced rogue can be used as an off tank in a pinch - but then, so could a sorceror, in those very same soft-hitting add situations.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe if a class wants to get damage buffed they can get together and decide to all start purposely sucking at their class to bring the world average down a bunch.</p></blockquote><p>Hello Im a wizard and I love this idea.</p>

[Bauglir]

<p><span style="color: #800000;">"So which is it - you say you've raided in other games, but you don't count eq2 as one of them, and then immediately say you are in a raid guild and have raided? I get it, this is a troll attempt. You'll get no more food from me, sir."</span></p><p>Yes I am in a raid guild but I am an alternate raider I do not raid full time.  Why?  Mostly because they have their primary Conj.. yes you heard that ... 1 conj.. they use multiple wizards by the way.</p><p>I would raid more.. and have actual raid gear in some slots...but... I have been told.. Conj's can't compete with sout dps..wiz and warlock dps.</p><p>Troll.. hardly.</p><p>Your doing a fine job of trolling without my help.  I just want to be sure people know conjs need help to.</p>

[Elskidor]

<p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would raid more.. and have actual raid gear in some slots...but... I have been told.. Conj's can't compete with sout dps..wiz and warlock dps.</p></blockquote><p>Why did you roll a T2 DPS and expect to be puting out T1 DPS lol. Honnestly, a Conj can get way up there in T1 territory if they are good, but seeing as you're being beaten by SKs, you have alot more learning to do about the Conj.</p>

[Bauglir]

<p><cite>Meube@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bauglir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would raid more.. and have actual raid gear in some slots...but... I have been told.. Conj's can't compete with sout dps..wiz and warlock dps.</p></blockquote><p>Why did you roll a T2 DPS and expect to be puting out T1 DPS lol. Honnestly, a Conj can get way up there in T1 territory if they are good, but seeing as you're being beaten by SKs, you have alot more learning to do about the Conj.</p></blockquote><p>Sks can do some really decent DPS and in a group setting, not raid obviously, they are usually preffered these days to grabbing "T2" DPS to fill a spot. </p><p>Look, we both know T2 DPS = sitting in the guild hall on a wait list.  I don't like playing a Wizard, I tried it.  I even tried a Warlock.  I like the ability to port for a wiz, but even that is limited really, the lack of options for playstyle bothered me for both classes. </p><p>Maybe now with mercs I might not be so opposed to it but I'm too tired to bother re-rolling or making another alt that won't ever get to 90/320 because the road there is long and boring unless you either love what your playing or can 2 box and PL.  I suppose I could reactivate my second account and 2-box one.. oh wait.. I don't really love the play style.. there we go again.</p><p>So what I like to play, the conj class, is only T2 dps but I need to do T1 dps to get raid invites.  I see a problem with this and I am sure there are many others who liked the conj class who do as well.</p><p>I'm pretty much out of luck I guess then.</p><p>Basiclly class definitions need to be refined like this in regards to all but healers and bards:</p><p>Caster (DPS) = All mages - All should do approximately the same DPS and provide a unique utility to help a group/raids</p><p>Scout (DPS) = All scouts - All should do approximately the same DPS and provide a unique utility to help a group/raids</p><p>Melee (DPS) -  All should do approximately the same DPS and provide a unique utility to help a group/raids</p><p>SK</p><p>pal</p><p>Mk</p><p>Tanking - All should be able to tank just as good</p><p>Zerk</p><p>Grd</p><p>I am simply not buying that conj's provide sufficent utility to make up for gimped dps.</p><p>The OP started this thread saying Wizards should do the most damage out of any/all classes basiclly.  I disagree.  I believe that DPS classes should all be within the same range of capability.  Anythign else just means people are left, again, at guild hall LFG on a wait list.</p><p>Sure they could roll another toon but what if they prefer to play a specific class? </p><p>This is why game balance issues like the one I am illustrating are BAD.</p>

[tigressb]

<p>Wow, you have zero concept of how the classes in this game work.  Let's look at scouts mainly, since I'm not much of a caster.  Beastlords (feral)/assassins/rangers do the most dps of scouts because they bring nothing to their group/raid aside from that dps, although assassins at least have hate transfer as a utility.  Those are your t1 scouts.  Brigands and swashies can throw up some really high numbers but ultimately sacrifice some of their damage potential for the fact that they bring some utility in the form of debuffs.  Dirges and troubadors can also generate some good numbers, typically less though than the other scouts and provide the most utility.  The casters should be the same way.  </p><p>Wizards and warlocks bring nothing to a raid/group but dps, so they should have the highest damage.  Conjurors and necros sacrifice some of their personal damage potential because they have pets to share their hate (wiz/lock have no real hate reduction) and whether or not you agree bring utility.  The enchanters bring the most utility and in theory should produce the lowest dps of the mages.   I agree that wizards are needing some attention.  Please stop trolling in a wizard thread with your issues about conjurors - perhaps you should make your own thread about your issues and see where it goes....</p>

[Lempo]

<p>He made his own thread, he has called out more than 1 conjy in it. Banditman even offered to analyze his parses if he would do 6 epic training dummies and combine them but that is too much effort he didn't even give him the respect of a reply.</p>

[hoosierdaddy]

<p><cite>Splatterpunk28 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The OP has a point, but it's been the case for quite some time about no sorceror equivalent to predator autoattack dmg. </blockquote><p>Yep. The fact that an auto-attacking assassin can produce 50-60% of the DPS of a wizard who is actually present and casting spells as fast as they refresh is the fundamental problem and has been for some time.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Charbryn@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I agree that wizards are needing some attention.  Please stop trolling in a wizard thread with your issues about conjurors - perhaps you should make your own thread about your issues and see where it goes....</blockquote><p>I kept seeing Bauglir's posts so I decided to look at his post history. He made a post about getting 90 on his conjuror no more than 2 months ago. I lol'd.</p>

[tigressb]

<p>Yeah I'd read his post complaining about conjurors before I even saw this thread.  I was hoping my sarcasm would come through more but it doesn't do well on the internet. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Seidhkona]

<p>What The French Fries on the conjy stuff? I expect equally geared T1 DPS to do, well... T1 DPS! I don't care if it's the wizzy or the assassin or what. It's the way they are designed.</p><p>I have a raiding conjy, and I manage to be in the top three of quite a lot of our parses, albeit way behind the ranger. That's what I expect, since I think conjies are T2 DPS. Whining about where you parse makes no sense at all. If you can't hack it in the raiding guild you are in and are constantly on their waiting list, maybe its time to look for a guild where you will be more in demand.</p><p>When it gets down to it, almost everyone can do things to improve their DPS.</p><ul><li>Get better quality spells. </li><li>Search your class forums for information on spell casting order, or figure it out yourself using a dummy and ACT.</li><li>Get better gear.</li><li>Adorn all your gear, finding out what the best adorns are for your class and using those wherever possible.</li><li>Look at top players in your class. If you ask politely when they're not raiding, many will be glad to discuss AA setups. And of course, the class forums usually have multiple posts about AA spec.</li><li>Ask knowledgeable people in your raidforce and in your class for ideas and suggestions for improvement.</li></ul><p><img src="http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/008/c/7/gullveig_signature_by_sigrdrifa1-d36p6cf.jpg" width="500" height="150" /></p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>I'm not reading through this thread, but while I can crush Koncept on single targets, he beats me consistently on aoe fights. He also stays relatively close to our other t1 dps but usually just slightly ahead (10-30k in drunder, with sometimes losing by a few thousand to one.) The only valid argument you could possibly use is that beastlords are a little powerful, but wizards are fine with the other dps classes.</p><p>As a side note, Wizards also don't have to sit at 95-99 hate all the time wondering if they can press one more button without ripping aggro.</p>

[hoosierdaddy]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>[...]<p>As a side note, Wizards also don't have to sit at 95-99 hate all the time wondering if they can press one more button without ripping aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for proving the point. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only valid argument you could possibly use is that beastlords are a little powerful, but wizards are fine with the other dps classes.</p></blockquote><p>Well said.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Poorly said.</p><p>Beastlords need a serious nerf.   I imagine its alot of fun being one of the main provers of that point yourself.  Post more parses and speed that process along, please.  "Can easily crush (a wizard) single target".....yea that sounds about right, doesnt it?   Since were known to be an ae dps class and all....   oh wait..</p><p>So whatever you see a wizard do on an ae, a warlock can do better. Especially if they are linked. That is a fact.</p><p>Whatever a wizard can do single target, a bstlord and a pred can do better.  That is also a fact.</p><p>Im only asking for equality.</p>

[slippery]

Do you out parse all other Wizards in the game? Now you make think I'm trolling, but this is an entirely serious question. Because if you don't (and we both know you don't) then how can you say what a Wizards dps potential is if you aren't reaching it? Are you getting a group as good for you as the other dps classes are for them? (Mages generally don't anymore, because it makes for worse raid dps) See, the thing is, everyone knows Beastlords parse high. What a lot of people don't think about is the fact that it is entirely dependent on the pet staying alive. Take a fight like Gindian Commander where the pet is likely to eat it constantly and tell me what the Beastlord parses. I'd also be willing to say the difference between a good Beastlord and a bad one is more then any other class, because it plays completely different then any other class. I haven't seen any parse from any Sorc, Pred, or Summoner that can't be beat by any of the others.

[SacDaddy420]

<p>this isnt about me, but since you are trying to make it...</p><p>Do your pred's outparse all other preds?</p><p>Well since they dont (and we both know they dont) than how can you make any assumptions as to their prowess if you cant see it?</p><p>Preds and beastlords are in a teir above sorcerors.  Im sorry I was under the impression wizards were the single target specialist mages.  Wonder what gave me that idea?  Oh yea it was the creation page.</p><p>wow did I just see you openly admit that mages lower raid dps?   So it sounds like were all in agreement here....</p>

[Trynt]

<p>Lumping preds and BLs together is just trolling.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Poorly said.</p><p>Beastlords need a serious nerf.   I imagine its alot of fun being one of the main provers of that point yourself.  Post more parses and speed that process along, please.  "Can easily crush (a wizard) single target".....yea that sounds about right, doesnt it?   Since were known to be an ae dps class and all....   oh wait..</p><p>So whatever you see a wizard do on an ae, a warlock can do better. Especially if they are linked. That is a fact.</p><p>Whatever a wizard can do single target, a bstlord and a pred can do better.  That is also a fact.</p><p>Im only asking for equality.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not arguing beastlords don't need a nerf.</p><p>I'm arguing that wizards are fine on single target against rogues/preds/summoners. And wizards do the same ae dps on unlinked as a warlock, if not more than them.</p>

[slippery]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>this isnt about me, but since you are trying to make it...</p><p>Do your pred's outparse all other preds?</p><p>Well since they dont (and we both know they dont) than how can you make any assumptions as to their prowess if you cant see it?</p><p>Preds and beastlords are in a teir above sorcerors.  Im sorry I was under the impression wizards were the single target specialist mages.  Wonder what gave me that idea?  Oh yea it was the creation page.</p><p>wow did I just see you openly admit that mages lower raid dps?   So it sounds like were all in agreement here....</p></blockquote><p>I'll be waiting for the quote where I said any of those things that you are trying to attribute to my post. But hey, if you have to twist words to make your point it clearly shows your point is not that strong. You didn't dispute a single thing in my post. </p><p>You've been making this post ever since you got in NPU and started losing failing to realize that maybe the problem isn't the class.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Do you out parse all other Wizards in the game? Now you make think I'm trolling, but this is an entirely serious question. Because if you don't (and we both know you don't) then how can you say what a Wizards dps potential is if you aren't reaching it? Are you getting a group as good for you as the other dps classes are for them? (Mages generally don't anymore, because it makes for worse raid dps)</blockquote><p>This quote clearly implies that I am not top of my class. Also that I cannot comment on mechanics because of that.  You know what?  whatever.  I dont claim to be.  But I also do not suck or i would be replaced.  However, using your same logic, YOU cannot comment on dps tiers either because koldsteel is and maplewood was better than anything you ever had.  Do see how rediculous this specific argument is?  I hope so b/c its roundabout, pointless, and distracting to my thread.</p><p>Now since I have your attention for the moment, I will ask again.  Are the following statements true or false?</p><p>Single target a bstlord and a pred are more powerful than a wizard.</p><p>AE a warlock is more powerful than a wizard.  *(buff tell me how many UNLINKED adds there are in drunder.  Hint - 0)</p><p>true or false.</p>

[slippery]

Your whole premise is false. You are implying a Wizard is not competitive under any situation ever, which a complete hoax. Do you ever get sat from raid? Do you ever win parses? Do you ever win zonewides? If everything you wanted to imply in this thread was true the answers would be I never get put in raid if someone else is on, and I can't possibly win a parse ever. I haven't seen a single parse from Mapleweed or Koldsteel that I don't think Koncept either has or could beat, and that is without anything special for his group. The fact that classes trade the top of the parse, and that includes Wizard, inherently implies balance through different strengths and weaknesses. You can't even make a blanket argument of single vs ae, but that is far too broad. Wizards are solid consistent competitive dps under every situation. I bet you compete on the zonewide in Drunder if not individual encounters. I also bet the other person varies. Beastlords have the highest potential on encounters that don't screw them (which cause them to plumet enough that you should probably replace them in raid). You won't hear me argue that. Do I see it changing? Probably not. The difference between the good and the bad is too large, and your average beastlord isn't out parsing everyone. The Mechanics they use can cause massive differences in top and bottom.

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Your whole premise is false. You are implying a Wizard is not competitive under any situation ever, which a complete hoax. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Incorrect, that is not my premise.  </span> Do you ever get sat from raid? <span style="color: #ff0000;">No</span> Do you ever win parses? <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yes</span> Do you ever win zonewides? <span style="color: #ff0000;">In drunder?  If we had a terrible or average warlock then yes I would.  Unfortunetly Drunder is 9/10ths ae trash, and we have a good one.</span> If everything you wanted to imply in this thread was true the answers would be I never get put in raid if someone else is on, and I can't possibly win a parse ever. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Stop blowing things out of proportion and putting words in my mouth.  Your exagerations are imbicilic and detracting.</span> I haven't seen a single parse from Mapleweed or Koldsteel that I don't think Koncept either has or could beat, and that is without anything special for his group. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I assume this is a typo and you meant he could compete and win.   I highly doubt this.  Im sure he's simply amazing and 10 times better than me, but I havent seen any 600K gunnr's dropped in the parse thread.  And thats what it would take.  This THIS ^^ is the premise of my thread.  Wizards cannot out dps burst damage preds (and bstlrds for that matter).  I think we should.  I think wizards should be on equal grounds with preds not 50K-100K behind even using miracles and blessings; and tbh, bstlrds should be nerfed hard.  They have too much utlity to parse as high and as fast as they are able to.</span> The fact that classes trade the top of the parse, and that includes Wizard, inherently implies balance through different strengths and weaknesses. You can't even make a blanket argument of single vs ae, but that is far too broad. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Preds and beastlords have too many strengths and not enough weaknesses.</span>  <span style="color: #ff0000;">A month ago Gaige said that he won the majority of parses in your guild.   Was he lying?  Does Majority somehow equal Equality in your world?</span> Wizards are solid consistent competitive dps under every situation. I bet you compete on the zonewide in Drunder if not individual encounters. I also bet the other person varies. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Jack of all trades.  Masters of none.  Not what I signed up for.  A powerful wizard should be feared.</span> Beastlords have the highest potential on encounters that don't screw them (which cause them to plumet enough that you should probably replace them in raid). You won't hear me argue that. Do I see it changing? Probably not. The difference between the good and the bad is too large, and your average beastlord isn't out parsing everyone. The Mechanics they use can cause massive differences in top and bottom.<span style="color: #ff0000;">  No I think its more along the lines of hardly any have the gear yet to even compete at our level.   Once they do, the outcry will become even louder.   Is it somehow "harder" for them to hit buttons and turn on auto attack?  I doubt it.  I'll admit I have no idea how one plays, so please enlighten me as to what is so difficult about them that justifies your stance and their superiority when done correctly. </span></blockquote>

[Neiloch]

<p>I love that your idea is basically no more than a RP concept. 'wizards should be feared' wow what a vague standard of ability and performance. Might as well say 'make wizards uber l33tsauce. Go.' Start talking in technical terms rather than what you 'feel' and you might actually make some headway. If you insist on sticking with 'i don't like how wizards are doing, it doesn't feel right to me' you will get nothing.</p>

[slippery]

I love that his idea of we can't compete is a 30 second fight, half of which the predator is hitting everything for max damage. Talking about a fight that has been on farm for an entire year is a really good way to get your point across. Especially when it is a fight we haven't even pulled in months because there is no point in going to the zone. But hey, keep making your point on single mob really quick burn fights and see how far it gets you. It'll get you the same place that argument has got you for the past year you've been making it. You have no idea how a Beastlord plays, so you shouldn't even talk about it. A Beastlord that just hits buttons and turns on auto attack is going to parse half of every other dps class. Sure, Gaige won a lot of parses. That doesn't mean classes are imbalanced or that Koncept wasn't competing with him on those fights, and even beating him on the same encounters. Or even our Conjuror and Necro.

[Gungo]

<p>koldsteel is the best assassin in the game playing the best single target dps class in the game. if you are beating him on parses you are doing fine.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>If they make my pet immune to death I have no problem having them nerf my dps.</p><p>Example: If I don't have a shaman in my group warding my pet, I am useless on half of the fights in drunder.</p><p>Also as far as unlinked ae fights in drunder go, Not 0.</p><p>Mystikus. If I were still a warlock I'd use those to pad the crap out of my parse, even if it is mostly wasted dps!~</p><p>Tallon Zek. I believe this qualifies due to the amount of single adds. Sullon Zek would be a stretch, but it could be included if you wanted it to.</p><p>Vallon Zek. (Will have a lot of unlinked adds in addition to the melting linked ones.)</p><p>So 3. Maybe 4 depending on how you feel.</p><p>I would consider adding Gindan to the list of wizard vs warlock competitive fights at some point soon because the adds melt before too many aoes can be cast. Grindstone could also be considered at some point to due to amount of add hp since they won't last more than 3-4 casts soon.</p><p>Also if a beastlord main in any guild isn't geared by now, then they shouldn't have solo quested to 90/320.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>I use one example of pretty much a training dummy for a raid like npu's, equils and revs, and you think Im basing my whole arguement on it.   Gimme a break.</p><p>I say one thing to try and be something other than angry all the time at you haters, and I get told my whole basis is RP?  Get a clue.   (btw if you dont think EVERQUEST 2 has any basis in the fantasy genre....I dont know what to tell you)</p><p>Buff, Sullon zek is not unlinked adds.  cmon man. They are singles.  talk about a stretch..</p><p>Gindan Angler is one of the fights that falls squarely into the "mine" category.  You asked if I won parses, well that is one everytime.  But what you people dont understand, is that if I take 3 nameds a night, the pred takes 10, and the alt BL blows me away whenever he feels like bringing him in I DONT FEEL LIKE THAT IS BALANCED SO I COME AND I SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT.</p><p>If it was simply a skill thing I would accept that.  Contrary to all your beliefs Im sure, I am not a whiner nor do I enjoy looking like one.   I feel its a mechanics issue.   I believe that with the explosion of MA, the addition of even more hits with Flurry, the inclusion of things like Combat Mastery, that this game is eschewed hard towards melee atm.  Spells have what?  Potency? We share that.   Im casting and competing with the same spells I used when everyone had no more than 100 MA.  I get no reliable double attack save the 5 seconds the illy controls.   I have 22.5 passive SDA in raid, but does something good like Ice Comet double a quarter of the time?  heck no and dont tell me it does or I will flood your inbox with Special attack reports.   Ice Spears doubles 60% of the time and IC does it maybe 10%.</p><p>Anyways Im done.  Argueing with you people tires me out.  I dont even need to convice any of you of anything.  No devs prolly gonna even read this far into the thread.</p><p>Have a wonderful night.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I say one thing to try and be something other than angry all the time at you haters, and I get told my whole basis is RP?  Get a clue.   (btw if you dont think EVERQUEST 2 has any basis in the fantasy genre....I dont know what to tell you)</blockquote><p>The fact that EQ2 is a high fantasy game doesn't lend legitimacy to the 'wizards should be feared' idea. Sorry. Pretty much every post you have made is like an artist trying to fix something mechanical. This is not viable. If you want a mechanics issue to be fixed you need to start thinking and talking like a technical designer.</p><p>Classes aren't balanced around how empowered they should make the player feel. Why? Because if they did it wouldn't work.</p><p>You are upset with mechanics and you are arguing for your position with aesthetics.</p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I believe that with the explosion of MA, the addition of even more hits with Flurry, the inclusion of things like Combat Mastery, that this game is eschewed hard towards melee atm.  Spells have what?  Potency? We share that.   Im casting and competing with the same spells I used when everyone had no more than 100 MA.  I get no reliable double attack save the 5 seconds the illy controls.</blockquote><p>Your data is myopic by neglecting to mention casting speed, ability reuse (which is not even an option to reforge and takes 2 classes' temp buffs to cap), and base spell vs CA reuse. </p><p>Your spells hit harder and are up more quickly than less damaging pred CAs, and you should be capped on cast/reuse solo. These variances help to keep wizards and preds competitive. </p><p>So again, lumping BLs and Preds together is illogical.</p>

[slippery]

<p>Auto attack + proc's now is either the same percentage or LESS than it was years ago. </p><p>I also found it extremely funny that I went to look at the Assassin parse thread, and on page 2 there is Sacdaddy making the argument in 2008 how underpowered Wizards are and how overpowered Assassins are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 2008 was Confirmed. What happened in Confirmed? I rarely ever lost parses as a Wizard.</p><p>Some things never change though, like your argument that the class you play is underpowered. Nevermind you saying you can win certain fights every time. Fights are stylistic. Classes are stylistic. They are also balanced. When the fight and the class line up guess what happens.</p><p>But we get it. You win parses, but it isn't enough. You need to be able to win all the parses.</p>

[Anastasie]

<p>One thing they should change to make things better for casters is to add the Spell Double Attack option to reforging.  Melee can reforge to MA or Ae Auto, yet casters only get options for their wands.  Where the hell is our Spell Double Attack option?  We are capped on casting speed/reuse - and the wand damage is laughable.</p>

[NG23985_01]

<p>Hello, this is my first time posting on the official forums in ages. I feel compelled to post here because I am passionate about the Wizard class, and I too am feeling the strain on the class lately. <strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">This will be a long post</span></strong> and I hope somebody appreciates the time that I've put into writing this even if they don't agree with my points. I will be pointing out some imbalances, but <strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">there will be no calls for nerfs</span></strong> in this post. I am committed to fairness; every class should have a place. Lately Wizad just seems to not really have a niche. I put a lot of effort into playing my class, but I do not feel that my combat performance reflects the effort that I put into it. Some of these problems are not restricted to Wizard alone.<strong>Problem 1 - </strong><strong>Melee characters have more opportunities for growth.</strong> Mages gain increased DPS from these stats: Potency, Crit Bonus, Ability Modifier, Intelligence, Disruption, Cast Speed, Reuse Speed, and Doublecast. Scouts benefit from the same stats (Swap Intelligence for Agility, and Weapon Skills for Disruption, and then subtract Doublecast), but they also benefit from: Haste, Multi-Attack, DPS, Flurry, Weapon Damage Bonus, Autoattack Multiplier, Strikethrough, Accuracy, Melee AE, and their weapon's ratio! Total stats for Mage DPS growth = 8. Total stats for Scout DPS growth = 17.<strong>Problem 2 - Melee characters have more buffs to benefit from than Mages.</strong> Part of this is related to having fewer stats for growth, but there is a separate issue too. This issue is quality and quantity of available buffs. Just about everybody has a buff to increase melee dps, but mage buffs are comparatively scarce. Also Scout stats are plentiful in the form of buffs. The stats that Mages gain DPS from are much weaker in power. There are numerous melee-triggered damage proc buffs, but only a few spell-triggered damage procs. There are also melee buffs for which there is no caster parallel - Combat Mastery and Stampede, anyone?<strong>Problem 3 - Wizard benefits less from buffs than from other classes.</strong> This is further separate from the previous problems, because in addition to dealing with poorer quality and quantity buffs compared to Scouts, Wizards gain less from the few Mage buffs that do exist than other Mages gain. Summoners get double the amount of damage from damage procs such as Peace of Mind, Frigid Gift, and Perfection of the Maestro. This is because their pet also triggers the damage procs. I often have 12-18k dps from these kind of procs, but my guild's Conjuror has 20-30k. I love getting the Upbeat Tempo buff from Troubadors. It does a lot to improve my DPS, but as good as it is for me, it is vastly superior for other classes. Wizards have few DoTs compared to Necromancer or Warlock, and both of these classes get a TON more DPS from UT than I do. Upbeat Tempo is generally quite inferior to Time Compression, because +2-3 DoT ticks every time is more reliable than +5% chance to doublecast. Lastly I will highlight Time Warp. Both of Wizard's largest spells are unable to doublecast. On a single-target fight, I consider an extra 400-600k damage out of a TW to be a very good one. A Conjuror is capable of doublecasting his hardest hitting spell, Elemental Blast. A doubled EB is an extra 1-1.2 million damage, plus they can get another spell and maybe pet spell in too. A Conjuror probably gets between 1-1.5 million extra damage out of a Time Warp in total.<strong>Problem 4 - Wizard burst DPS is a thing of the past.</strong> It takes me a good 15-20 seconds to "spin up" and then my DPS hits a plateau. We've got 2 burst damage spells and both are pretty rotten compared to burst damage attacks of other classes including Warlock, Assassin, Ranger and Conjuror. Fiery Blast is our first burst damage spell. FB is extremely sensitive to failure and not very rewarding in most situations. It takes 10 seconds to charge up, and then strikes our target for 35% (?) of the damage dealt during that window. It does not doublecast, it does not crit, it does not benefit from damage from procs, and it is not benefit from spell doublecasts during the window. On an AE heavy fight, I can sometimes push FB up to 800k-1200k, but that is very difficult and rare. Single-target requires me having all of my heavy hitters up at once, and due to varying recast times this is a rare occurrence. I consider a hit for 450k on single-target to be a good one, but most of the time it is 250k-350k. If I get interrupted, stunned, stifled, resisted, or otherwise fail a spell during the charge up time, it will dramatically reduce the damage. It will also fail completely if I die or if my target dies during the window. I would like to see FB converted into a plain vanilla single-target nuke. As it is, it is hypersensitive to failure and does not inflict a lot of damage in most situations. Keeping its current cast/recast time, I think a hit for 550k-750k would be appropriate and it would be better in all situations except massive AE. Our other burst spell is Manaburn, and MB has not scaled up very well into the current game. My MB hits for 950k-1200k most of the time, about the same as a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. The problem is that MB is an inferior spell in every way. Conjuror's EB is super fast, short reuse, hits hard, and is fully able to benefit from stat modifiers. Wizard's MB is slow to cast, has a longer reuse, cannot crit, cannot doublecast, drains all my power, and its damage drops off dramatically if my power is not 100% full to begin with. MB is very difficult to use on fights with power drains, and there are plenty of those. MB also has a bit of a spin up time. In addition to its slow cast speed, I have to cast 2 debuffs and 3 temporary buffs to maximize it, and this takes a good bit of extra time. I think a full MB cycle is about 8 seconds, far longer than the 2ish seconds for a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. I see 3 solutions to fixing Manaburn. <strong>1)</strong> Keep the spirit of the spell the same, and bring the damage more in line to reflect the EXTREMELY high cost of using Manaburn. I feel that a 5 million damage hit would be appropriate, keeping the spell exactly the same in every other way. <strong>2)</strong> Shorten the cast and reuse times to be more in line with Conjuror's EB, and change it to calculate its damage based on MAXIMUM power instead of CURRENT power, and then change it to cost only a little bit of power. This would make it less prone to failure on power drain fights, and better speed, without changing the spirit of the spell. <strong>3)</strong> Change the spell completely to something that is fully able to doublecast, crit, etc. I'd personally prefer Option 3 because I just don't think dumping all your power into 1 "big" hit is a very good mechanic to go by.<strong>Problem 5 - Lots of our DPS is conditional.</strong> In addition to FB and MB being sensitive to failure as described above, we have some other spells that are unreliable. We have Fusion and Blast of Devastation. Both are frontal cone AEs that are very hard to aim - especially against giant-sized NPCs that are so common these days. Fusion has a narrower cone and shorter range so it is especially hard to aim. Fusion has a 3-target limit, but I almost never see it hit 2 targets, much less all 3. NPCs just don't like to stand close enough together to get hit by Fusion. We've also got a quick nuke called Thunderclap. TC has an AA that gives it a second and third hit, greatly raising its damage potential. The problem is that this AA restricts the additional hits to being short ranged. There are plenty of situations where I cannot be in melee range to use Fusion, BoD, and the advanced Thunderclap, so I lose a lot of DPS. I changed my AAs to buy something other than the Thunderclap enhancing AA. I figured having a little bit of extra DPS all the time is better than having a lot of extra DPS in very rare situations. The minimum solution here is to widen the cone and range of Fusion and remove the range restrictions on the Thunderclap AA. A better solution would be to change Fusion and BoD into targeted AE spells instead. Think like a "Green" AE, except that they can hit on unlinked targets surrounding the primary target. I never understood why Sorcerers got melee ranged spells. What ever happened to being a ranged DPS class?<strong>Problem 6 - Wizards have the worst aggro management of all DPS classes.</strong> I have successfully yanked aggro from my guild's MT a couple of times when I wasn't closely watching my aggro. Sometimes I have to slow down my DPS to avoid getting aggro while others are going full throttle. All Scouts have good aggro control in the form of hate transfers, detaunt procs, detaunt poisons, and positional dropping abilities or passive hate reduction. Summoners split their aggro with their pets. Warlock's mythical effect triggers a hate position drop. Wizard has none of these things. We have a pitiful 4% (9% with AA) hate transfer. We have Arcane Bewilderment like all other mages, and then we've got 2 de-taunt spells that are so weak that they are not worth casting. I'd like to see more passive aggro management for Wizard, such as the Befuddle buff that Rogues enjoy for an example.<strong>Problem 7 - We are crippled while moving.</strong> Situations where moving and repositioning are required are plentiful these days. While moving, I can cast 2 spells - Arcane Bewilderment which is usually already down because I've been using it for hate control, and Thunderclap. While moving I can get around 35-50k damage out of TC. Scouts are not similarly restricted. They can toggle on their ranged autoattack for 100-150k damage or even more. Maybe they can even move in sync with their target and not have to turn off DPS at all! I lose a lot of ground on bosses that require a lot of moving. Being able to cast Ball of Fire while moving would be a good solution.<strong>Problem 8 - Spell Weapon autoattack is poorly implemented.</strong> This is related to Problem 1 but has distinct issues. Fully itemizing for SW stats is essential, as is tossing around some buffs to various classes for these stats. Fixing this would fix Problems 1, 2, and 7. I often see Rangers and Assassins getting 70-90k dps from their autoattack, up to 50% of their parse! I think that amount is absurdly overpowered, but since I'm not calling for nerfs I think getting SW autoattack up a bit is the solution. My SW autoattack does about 400-600 dps currently. I think getting it to a minimum of 10k is important. In addition to being poorly itemized for, and exactly ZERO buffs for SW autoattack existing, there are mechanics problems. SW autoattack triggers melee procs such as Blade Chime, and it deals crushing damage. It should trigger spell procs instead, and deal Magic damage as the default type. We should also be given one of two possible ways to change the damage type. The first way to allow us to change the damage type of our SW autoattack is to give each mage class a couple of self, permanent buffs that change the type. For example, Wizard and Conjuror could each get a self buff that converts SW autoattack to Fire type or a different one for Ice type. The other way to allow us to change damage type involves using the ammo slot. I am NOT talking about consumable ammo here! I am talking about using a "crystal" or some such in the ammo slot. A Fire Crystal could make our SW autoattack hit for fire type damage. Also, since Arrows and Throwing Ammo also boost the damage a little bit, Crystals could do the same. Make 3 tiers of crystals - crafted, heroic, raid. having a crystal equipped could add a little damage in addition to changing the outgoing damage type.<strong>Problem 9 - Wizard has lackluster temporary buffs.</strong> We have Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro, both are damage procs. FG is very good - it is groupwide, hits for 7-14k per hit, lasts 29 seconds, and triggers off melee or spells. Surge of Ro is in dire need of help. SoR is self only, hits for 4-6k per hit, lasts 30 seconds, and triggers off spells only. The worst part of SoR is that its damage trigger is a DoT! Because it is a DoT, it is inevitable that we end up cutting off the last 1-2 ticks of the DoT, reducing the damage considerably. I think converting it to a nuke instead of DoT is essential, and since it is self only it should do more damage than FG. I think 15-30k per proc of SoR would be appropriate. Also we need an additional temporary buff! Warlocks get Focused Casting, which lets them have 100% doublecast for a short time. Wizard has no parallel to this at all. I think it would be useful, and not step on the toes of Warlocks to give us a self buff that gives us a few seconds of guaranteed maximum damage on spell hits. A self-only, spell-version of Combat Mastery, if you would.In summary, we just haven't had any attention in a very long time. Summoners got shared pet stats because it was a necessary balancing change. Warlocks had their Plaguebringer nuke converted into a massive DoT when Velious came out. Wizards on the other hand just haven't had much attention. In the last 2 years, Wizards have received inferior abilities than other DPS classes and this is really starting to show. Summoners gained extremely powerful things such as Elemental Blast (Conj), Accelerated Decay (Necro), and Soulburn (both). Their pets also gained a couple of new spells through AAs. Assassins got Shadowstep and Exploit Weakness, and both parse very high. During this time Wizards have gained Fiery Blast, Blast of Devastation, and Sanguine Sacrifice. All of these are comparatively weak when viewed beside abilities gained by other DPS classes in the same time. I will admit that BoD parses pretty well though, but only on fights with at least 3 mobs close together. Ultimately I think the original DPS tiers should be honored. Sorceror + Predator T1, Summoner + Rogue T2. I see lots of people say there is no place for T2 dps, and summoners and rogues should have T1 DPS. I disagree with this because Summoners and Rogues still have vastly superior utility. I feel that things should work this way: Sorceror + Predators on top, toe-to-toe with each other. A different subclass can win different fights based on combat situations. All 4 T1 DPS classes should be "comfortably" ahead of all 4 T2 subclasses in most situations. A T2 should only come into T1 territory where the situation favors it. (For example, a T2 AE DPS coming close to a T1 single-target DPS on a fight that is AE-heavy).I have no current opinion of Warlocks because I have not raided beside one for a long time. I also have no opinion of Beastlords since my guild does not have a serious one yet. I feel like Wizard does not currently have a niche. We work hard to put out the numbers that we can, and are still beaten by others. We're just outdated because we haven't had any individual attention in a long time. Please discuss my points. I am anxious to see what other Wizards have to say about this.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello, this is my first time posting on the official forums in ages. I feel compelled to post here because I am passionate about the Wizard class, and I too am feeling the strain on the class lately. <strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">This will be a long post</span></strong> and I hope somebody appreciates the time that I've put into writing this even if they don't agree with my points. I will be pointing out some imbalances, but <strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">there will be no calls for nerfs</span></strong> in this post. I am committed to fairness; every class should have a place. Lately Wizad just seems to not really have a niche. I put a lot of effort into playing my class, but I do not feel that my combat performance reflects the effort that I put into it. Some of these problems are not restricted to Wizard alone.<strong>Problem 1 - </strong><strong>Melee characters have more opportunities for growth.</strong> Mages gain increased DPS from these stats: Potency, Crit Bonus, Ability Modifier, Intelligence, Disruption, Cast Speed, Reuse Speed, and Doublecast. Scouts benefit from the same stats (Swap Intelligence for Agility, and Weapon Skills for Disruption, and then subtract Doublecast), but they also benefit from: Haste, Multi-Attack, DPS, Flurry, Weapon Damage Bonus, Autoattack Multiplier, Strikethrough, Accuracy, Melee AE, and their weapon's ratio! Total stats for Mage DPS growth = 8. Total stats for Scout DPS growth = 17.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Itemization issue more than anything.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 2 - Melee characters have more buffs to benefit from than Mages.</strong> Part of this is related to having fewer stats for growth, but there is a separate issue too. This issue is quality and quantity of available buffs. Just about everybody has a buff to increase melee dps, but mage buffs are comparatively scarce. Also Scout stats are plentiful in the form of buffs. The stats that Mages gain DPS from are much weaker in power. There are numerous melee-triggered damage proc buffs, but only a few spell-triggered damage procs. There are also melee buffs for which there is no caster parallel - Combat Mastery and Stampede, anyone?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Time Warp > Combat Mastery. I will give you Stampede, but ET/Curse are pretty good on ae fights. Ice Lash is baller but since melees benefit from this too, meh.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 3 - Wizard benefits less from buffs than from other classes.</strong> This is further separate from the previous problems, because in addition to dealing with poorer quality and quantity buffs compared to Scouts, Wizards gain less from the few Mage buffs that do exist than other Mages gain. Summoners get double the amount of damage from damage procs such as Peace of Mind, Frigid Gift, and Perfection of the Maestro. This is because their pet also triggers the damage procs. I often have 12-18k dps from these kind of procs, but my guild's Conjuror has 20-30k. I love getting the Upbeat Tempo buff from Troubadors. It does a lot to improve my DPS, but as good as it is for me, it is vastly superior for other classes. Wizards have few DoTs compared to Necromancer or Warlock, and both of these classes get a TON more DPS from UT than I do. Upbeat Tempo is generally quite inferior to Time Compression, because +2-3 DoT ticks every time is more reliable than +5% chance to doublecast. Lastly I will highlight Time Warp. Both of Wizard's largest spells are unable to doublecast. On a single-target fight, I consider an extra 400-600k damage out of a TW to be a very good one. A Conjuror is capable of doublecasting his hardest hitting spell, Elemental Blast. A doubled EB is an extra 1-1.2 million damage, plus they can get another spell and maybe pet spell in too. A Conjuror probably gets between 1-1.5 million extra damage out of a Time Warp in total.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It's a weak point, but you also get the most benefit from Bolster and misc. INT buffs. Also: If you're only getting an extra 400-600k out of time warp, maybe you should cast more than ice comet. Ice Comet, Fusion, and...idk..Ball of Fire equal up to about 1.4 million. Add a thunderclap for another 150k if you have time. And that's on a single target. Of course on an aoe fight you could doublecast Fusion, Blast of Dev, and ...Firestorm? For an extra like...3 million damage @ 3 targets, + another 400k per target up to 6.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 4 - Wizard burst DPS is a thing of the past.</strong> It takes me a good 15-20 seconds to "spin up" and then my DPS hits a plateau. We've got 2 burst damage spells and both are pretty rotten compared to burst damage attacks of other classes including Warlock, Assassin, Ranger and Conjuror. Fiery Blast is our first burst damage spell. FB is extremely sensitive to failure and not very rewarding in most situations. It takes 10 seconds to charge up, and then strikes our target for 35% (?) of the damage dealt during that window. It does not doublecast, it does not crit, it does not benefit from damage from procs, and it is not benefit from spell doublecasts during the window. On an AE heavy fight, I can sometimes push FB up to 800k-1200k, but that is very difficult and rare. Single-target requires me having all of my heavy hitters up at once, and due to varying recast times this is a rare occurrence. I consider a hit for 450k on single-target to be a good one, but most of the time it is 250k-350k. If I get interrupted, stunned, stifled, resisted, or otherwise fail a spell during the charge up time, it will dramatically reduce the damage. It will also fail completely if I die or if my target dies during the window. I would like to see FB converted into a plain vanilla single-target nuke. As it is, it is hypersensitive to failure and does not inflict a lot of damage in most situations. Keeping its current cast/recast time, I think a hit for 550k-750k would be appropriate and it would be better in all situations except massive AE. Our other burst spell is Manaburn, and MB has not scaled up very well into the current game. My MB hits for 950k-1200k most of the time, about the same as a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. The problem is that MB is an inferior spell in every way. Conjuror's EB is super fast, short reuse, hits hard, and is fully able to benefit from stat modifiers. Wizard's MB is slow to cast, has a longer reuse, cannot crit, cannot doublecast, drains all my power, and its damage drops off dramatically if my power is not 100% full to begin with. MB is very difficult to use on fights with power drains, and there are plenty of those. MB also has a bit of a spin up time. In addition to its slow cast speed, I have to cast 2 debuffs and 3 temporary buffs to maximize it, and this takes a good bit of extra time. I think a full MB cycle is about 8 seconds, far longer than the 2ish seconds for a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. I see 3 solutions to fixing Manaburn. <strong>1)</strong> Keep the spirit of the spell the same, and bring the damage more in line to reflect the EXTREMELY high cost of using Manaburn. I feel that a 5 million damage hit would be appropriate, keeping the spell exactly the same in every other way. <strong>2)</strong> Shorten the cast and reuse times to be more in line with Conjuror's EB, and change it to calculate its damage based on MAXIMUM power instead of CURRENT power, and then change it to cost only a little bit of power. This would make it less prone to failure on power drain fights, and better speed, without changing the spirit of the spell. <strong>3)</strong> Change the spell completely to something that is fully able to doublecast, crit, etc. I'd personally prefer Option 3 because I just don't think dumping all your power into 1 "big" hit is a very good mechanic to go by.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 5 - Lots of our DPS is conditional.</strong> In addition to FB and MB being sensitive to failure as described above, we have some other spells that are unreliable. We have Fusion and Blast of Devastation. Both are frontal cone AEs that are very hard to aim - especially against giant-sized NPCs that are so common these days. Fusion has a narrower cone and shorter range so it is especially hard to aim. Fusion has a 3-target limit, but I almost never see it hit 2 targets, much less all 3. NPCs just don't like to stand close enough together to get hit by Fusion. We've also got a quick nuke called Thunderclap. TC has an AA that gives it a second and third hit, greatly raising its damage potential. The problem is that this AA restricts the additional hits to being short ranged. There are plenty of situations where I cannot be in melee range to use Fusion, BoD, and the advanced Thunderclap, so I lose a lot of DPS. I changed my AAs to buy something other than the Thunderclap enhancing AA. I figured having a little bit of extra DPS all the time is better than having a lot of extra DPS in very rare situations. The minimum solution here is to widen the cone and range of Fusion and remove the range restrictions on the Thunderclap AA. A better solution would be to change Fusion and BoD into targeted AE spells instead. Think like a "Green" AE, except that they can hit on unlinked targets surrounding the primary target. I never understood why Sorcerers got melee ranged spells. What ever happened to being a ranged DPS class?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Wizard DPS is not situational, lol. I stopped reading after the problem title.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 6 - Wizards have the worst aggro management of all DPS classes.</strong> I have successfully yanked aggro from my guild's MT a couple of times when I wasn't closely watching my aggro. Sometimes I have to slow down my DPS to avoid getting aggro while others are going full throttle. All Scouts have good aggro control in the form of hate transfers, detaunt procs, detaunt poisons, and positional dropping abilities or passive hate reduction. Summoners split their aggro with their pets. Warlock's mythical effect triggers a hate position drop. Wizard has none of these things. We have a pitiful 4% (9% with AA) hate transfer. We have Arcane Bewilderment like all other mages, and then we've got 2 de-taunt spells that are so weak that they are not worth casting. I'd like to see more passive aggro management for Wizard, such as the Befuddle buff that Rogues enjoy for an example.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Beastlords.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 7 - We are crippled while moving.</strong> Situations where moving and repositioning are required are plentiful these days. While moving, I can cast 2 spells - Arcane Bewilderment which is usually already down because I've been using it for hate control, and Thunderclap. While moving I can get around 35-50k damage out of TC. Scouts are not similarly restricted. They can toggle on their ranged autoattack for 100-150k damage or even more. Maybe they can even move in sync with their target and not have to turn off DPS at all! I lose a lot of ground on bosses that require a lot of moving. Being able to cast Ball of Fire while moving would be a good solution.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What bosses require a lot of moving? The only ones I can think of you possibly counting are like, Tert and Finnrdag. Neither helps scouts more than mages. Nothing else requires moving.</span></p><p><strong>Problem 8 - Spell Weapon autoattack is poorly implemented.</strong> This is related to Problem 1 but has distinct issues. Fully itemizing for SW stats is essential, as is tossing around some buffs to various classes for these stats. Fixing this would fix Problems 1, 2, and 7. I often see Rangers and Assassins getting 70-90k dps from their autoattack, up to 50% of their parse! I think that amount is absurdly overpowered, but since I'm not calling for nerfs I think getting SW autoattack up a bit is the solution. My SW autoattack does about 400-600 dps currently. I think getting it to a minimum of 10k is important. In addition to being poorly itemized for, and exactly ZERO buffs for SW autoattack existing, there are mechanics problems. SW autoattack triggers melee procs such as Blade Chime, and it deals crushing damage. It should trigger spell procs instead, and deal Magic damage as the default type. We should also be given one of two possible ways to change the damage type. The first way to allow us to change the damage type of our SW autoattack is to give each mage class a couple of self, permanent buffs that change the type. For example, Wizard and Conjuror could each get a self buff that converts SW autoattack to Fire type or a different one for Ice type. The other way to allow us to change damage type involves using the ammo slot. I am NOT talking about consumable ammo here! I am talking about using a "crystal" or some such in the ammo slot. A Fire Crystal could make our SW autoattack hit for fire type damage. Also, since Arrows and Throwing Ammo also boost the damage a little bit, Crystals could do the same. Make 3 tiers of crystals - crafted, heroic, raid. having a crystal equipped could add a little damage in addition to changing the outgoing damage type.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I will agree with this to an extent. It should be matched with your melee auto attack, not considerably worse as it is now, but it shouldn't be considerably better either. As a warlock I usually got 4-5k from auto attack as well as another 5-6k from venemous runes, and a couple more thousand from various procs (blade chime, vc, stampede)</span></p><p><strong>Problem 9 - Wizard has lackluster temporary buffs.</strong> We have Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro, both are damage procs. FG is very good - it is groupwide, hits for 7-14k per hit, lasts 29 seconds, and triggers off melee or spells. Surge of Ro is in dire need of help. SoR is self only, hits for 4-6k per hit, lasts 30 seconds, and triggers off spells only. The worst part of SoR is that its damage trigger is a DoT! Because it is a DoT, it is inevitable that we end up cutting off the last 1-2 ticks of the DoT, reducing the damage considerably. I think converting it to a nuke instead of DoT is essential, and since it is self only it should do more damage than FG. I think 15-30k per proc of SoR would be appropriate. Also we need an additional temporary buff! Warlocks get Focused Casting, which lets them have 100% doublecast for a short time. Wizard has no parallel to this at all. I think it would be useful, and not step on the toes of Warlocks to give us a self buff that gives us a few seconds of guaranteed maximum damage on spell hits. A self-only, spell-version of Combat Mastery, if you would.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Frigid Gift is amazing. Also, stop it. Wizards don't need another temp buff. Especially not one with tons of doublecast or a spell version of CM.</span></p><p>In summary, we just haven't had any attention in a very long time. Summoners got shared pet stats because it was a necessary balancing change. Warlocks had their Plaguebringer nuke converted into a massive DoT when Velious came out. Wizards on the other hand just haven't had much attention. In the last 2 years, Wizards have received inferior abilities than other DPS classes and this is really starting to show. Summoners gained extremely powerful things such as Elemental Blast (Conj), Accelerated Decay (Necro), and Soulburn (both). Their pets also gained a couple of new spells through AAs. Assassins got Shadowstep and Exploit Weakness, and both parse very high. During this time Wizards have gained Fiery Blast, Blast of Devastation, and Sanguine Sacrifice. All of these are comparatively weak when viewed beside abilities gained by other DPS classes in the same time. I will admit that BoD parses pretty well though, but only on fights with at least 3 mobs close together. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Sanguine Sacrifice is one of the best buffs in game. What are you talking about. It's probably better than Soulburn. Wizards haven't gotten buffed because they're finally rather balanced.</span></p><p>Ultimately I think the original DPS tiers should be honored. Sorceror + Predator T1, Summoner + Rogue T2. I see lots of people say there is no place for T2 dps, and summoners and rogues should have T1 DPS. I disagree with this because Summoners and Rogues still have vastly superior utility. I feel that things should work this way: Sorceror + Predators on top, toe-to-toe with each other. A different subclass can win different fights based on combat situations. All 4 T1 DPS classes should be "comfortably" ahead of all 4 T2 subclasses in most situations. A T2 should only come into T1 territory where the situation favors it. (For example, a T2 AE DPS coming close to a T1 single-target DPS on a fight that is AE-heavy).</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No. Summoners don't have any more utility than a Wizard. Summoners should be T1 dps. Swash debuffs aren't anywhere near as great as they once were, and should also be T1 dps, at least on aoe content. Brigands are pretty amazing with debuffs and I can agree with them securing a T1.5 spot, and allowing bards/chanters/tanks to take up T2.</span></p><p>I have no current opinion of Warlocks because I have not raided beside one for a long time. I also have no opinion of Beastlords since my guild does not have a serious one yet. I feel like Wizard does not currently have a niche. We work hard to put out the numbers that we can, and are still beaten by others. We're just outdated because we haven't had any individual attention in a long time. Please discuss my points. I am anxious to see what other Wizards have to say about this.</p></blockquote>

[DarkMirrax]

<p>As ususal the forums end up with but this class x and that class x and oh but my guilds slack wizard is awesome as our rwdps is 1 million.</p><p>Seriously guys read whats been posted instead of flaming</p><p>ISSUE : Wizard isnt king anymore I dont care on AE but i do care on Single Target</p><p>Reasons : Our so called big hitters now fall way short of the mark and need some boosting , you got scouts hitting 5 multiattacks and ae auto and flurrys </p><p>Summoners - Right .. Elemental Blast 3 Million + Damage - Can be Timewarped no power cost no detrimental cost and on a lower reuse than Manaburn.  Lifeburn .. sigh makes me cry </p><p>Reforging - again scouts get to reforge MA .. mages get abilty mod .. wow </p><p>FOTM Class - Beastord yes it will likely be nurfed but certainly no time soon as its the whole selling point of this "xpac"</p><p>Im not getting into the usual my class is better than your class rubbish and comparing each version of each spell ie Warlocks V Wizards.  Thats not what this is about they arnt the same classes and have different spells.</p><p>and buffrat mate as for </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: #2a2623;">Sanguine Sacrifice is one of the best buffs in game. What are you talking about. It's probably better than Soulburn. Wizards haven't gotten buffed because they're finally rather balanced.</span></p><p>really because looking at your own parses theres no balance there mate welcome to a new DPS Tier</p>

[NG23985_01]

<p>Buffrat, even with 100% cast speed and 56% recovery speed, it isn't possible to get off Fusion, Ice Comet, AND Ball of Fire on a Time Warp. Worse, all these spells have different recast times and are very seldom all up at the same time. I don't have a Mystic in my group, and thus I don't get Bolster. I don't understand what you mean when you say Wizards get more out of INT buffs than others, unless you mean from Sanguine Sacrifice. Thunderclap does far less than 150k damage too by the way. If you're going to stop reading my points after the title, you don't have much of a right to say that I am wrong. Based on your hostile tone, I think you must play a non-Wizard DPS class and you enjoy seeing us in our current crippled state, and this discredits you. As for my point you didn't read, I said <span style="text-decoration: underline;">conditional</span>, you said <span style="text-decoration: underline;">situational</span>. These words do not mean the same thing. I also said I had no opinion of Beastlords or Warlocks since my guild does not have a serious one of either subclass. What bosses require a lot of moving? King Tormax, Tert, and some others in Drunder. (Don't have names off the top of my head.) The movement problem is also noticable on trash mobs. I can do almost nothing while I'm getting up in melee range to cast Fusion and BoD while scouts are free to used ranged autoattack and move up close. Next, my melee autoattack does less than my SW autoattack. My ranged wand is a little bit better than my primary slot though so this probably accounts for the difference. Melee gives me 300-500 dps, SW 400-600, and since SW doesn't require micromanagement like melee autoattack, I make no effort to use melee autoattack. Why do you say Wizards dont need another temporary buff? Looking at Sorcerer classes, and excluding the temporary buffs that we share with each other, Wizard has Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro. Warlock has Focused Casting, Curse of Darkness, Gift of Bertoxxulous and Netherrealm! (Wizard = 2, Warlock = 4) Sanguine Sacrifice isn't the godly spell that you make it out to be. Sure, it is useful, but I've calculated that it only improves my outgoing damage by about 14% for its duration. This is nice, but it is well suited for sustained DPS, not burst DPS. Lastly, I knew somebody would try to make the argument that Summoners deserve T1 dps because they "don't have utility" so I have prepared a counterargument to prove that Summoners do have a lot more utility than true T1 dps classes.Utility from Wizards:</p><ol><li>Converge (small hate xfer)</li><li>Frigid Gift (damage proc)</li><li>Mana Intromission (small power transfer)</li><li>Evac (seldom used)</li><li>Portal (NEVER used)</li><li>Ro's Blade (3-5k melee dps proc for 3 people)</li><li>Int + str buff</li></ol><p>Utility from Warlocks:</p><ol><li>Shroud of Bertoxxulous (damage shield)</li><li>Grasp of Bertoxxulous (melee dps proc)</li><li>Curse of Darkness (damage proc)</li><li>BOon of the Damned (small hate transfer)</li><li>Dark Pact (casting skills buff)</li><li>Mana Trickle (small power transfer)</li></ol><p>Utility from Assassins:</p><ol><li> Apply Poison (melee damage proc)</li><li>Evacuate</li><li>hate transfer</li><li>Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff</li></ol><p>Utility from Rangers:</p><ol><li>Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff</li><li>Evacuate</li><li>Focus Aim</li></ol><p>Utility from Conjurors:</p><ol><li>Runes of Geomancy (stoneskin proc)</li><li>Elemental Toxicity (dmg proc)</li><li><strong>F</strong><strong>ire from Within (RAIDWIDE buff from pet: hp, potency, armor effectiveness)</strong></li><li>Cabalistic Conversion (constant power conservation)</li><li>Call of the Hero</li><li>Fire Seed</li><li>Flame Shield</li><li>Geotic Rune</li><li>power Shards</li><li>Reanimate (helps guarantee their DPS by preventing pet death)</li><li>Sacrifice</li><li><strong>Stoneskins (group, on-demand stoneskins, very nice)</strong></li><li>self decreased resist rate buff</li></ol><p>Utility from Necromancers:</p><ol><li>Elemental Toxicity</li><li>Cabalistic Conversion</li><li>power Hearts</li><li>Revive</li><li>minor group heals (via consumption and pet spells)</li><li>STR/STA/INT/AGI group buff</li><li>Noxious Barrier (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)</li><li>Reanimate (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)</li><li><strong>Beyond the Grave (RAIDWIDE pet buff: potency, power, weapon accuracy, resistability)</strong></li></ol><p>I could have missed some things, but I think I have successfully proven my point that Summoners have vastly more utility (in quality and quantity) than true T1 dps classes. It cannot be legitimately said that Summoners have no more utility than T1 dps classes. If summoners are to have T1 dps, then Wizard, Warlock, Assassin and Ranger need to be given one raidwide buff each. I'd rather just have the original DPS tiers be honored though.Also DarkMirraax made a good point that I missed about reforging. Scouts can get tons of extra multiattack by tossing unwanted DPS, but I've not yet found a good use for reforging as a Wizard. I can get rid of extra cast/reuse speed for Ability Modifier I suppose, but this benefit is really tiny.</p>

[Bauglir]

<p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>H</span><span>onestly, in my opinion, conjurors only have a little more utility then Wizards.  See my reply below to the poster that did a detailed breakdown, though a one-sided one, comparing utility of classes mentioned in this thread.</span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>U</span>tility from Conjurors:</span></span></p><ol><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">R<span>unes of Geomancy (stoneskin proc) -  Agree</span> </span></li><li><span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>E</span>lemental Toxicity (dmg proc) - Agree  </span></span></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>F</span><span><span>i</span>re from Within (RAIDWIDE buff from pet: hp, potency, armor effectiveness) - Do not agree completely, Pet does not stay alive enough. </span> </span></strong></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Cabalistic Conversion (constant power conservation) - Do NOT AGREE.  How is this utility? -  Its Conj only. </span> </span></strong></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Call of the Hero - Do NOT AGREE.  I have never been asked to use this spell. </span> </span></strong></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Fire Seed - Do NOT AGREE.  This is group dependent.  I have never been in the MTs group nor has any conj I know so this is worthless in raids. </span> </span></strong></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Flame Shield - Do NOT AGREE.  The damage this spell does is minimal, sure I can apply it to the MT but very minimal damage.  Not worth a dime. </span> </span></strong></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Geotic Rune - Agree</span> </span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>power Shards - Agree </span> </span></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Reanimate (helps guarantee their DPS by preventing pet death) - DO NOT AGREE.  Pet dies way too much for this to be much use. </span> </span></strong></li><li><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span>Sacrifice - Do NOT AGREE.  Laughable benifit even in the gear I have. </span> </span></strong></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">Stoneskins (group, on-demand stoneskins, very nice) - Agree but limited...  </span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>self decreased resist rate buff - Do NOT AGREE.  Again, self only.</strong></span></li></ol><p><span style="color: #000000;">In my lowly experience:</span></p><p>My sources for raid invites include:  my guild (where I am an alternate "fill-in" because they have too many DPS raiders), pickup raids, and some friends that still play and have large guild connections.  I mentioned that I have been on 12 raids before, since getting to 90 and obtaining full Rygorr and adorning properly.  I am only counting X4 EM raids.  Since I stated that I have been on 3 more X4 EM raids.  I frequently group and do X2s.</p><p>I am, simply and honestly admitted, NOT a top end guild raider like many, if not all, of you.  However I am the unspoken majority. </p><p>The best DPS I can pull when on raids if not buffed is around 45 - 55k, this is not competitive, even in the low end gear I have. </p><p>I am routinely passed up, sat out, whatever you want to call it from raids if there are Wizards or Warlocks avlaiable,  EVEN if they are in the same level of gear. </p><p>Sure you can say all of the following:  "your not a good player", "you made your main class choice so just live with it", "there are too many DPS players in general".</p><p>The only thing you would be right in saying is that I made this class choice for my main.  I wish I had not sometimes but there are no other classes I like playing.  I tried a bunch.</p><p>The facts:</p><p>1.  Conjurors should be T1 DPS because they do not provide sufficent utility for raid leaders to take them along if "better" dps options are there.  No one cares about utility and honestly they don't have much that matters.</p><p>2.  BL's are currently hurting Wizard desireability on raids and thus also destroying Conjuror desireablity.</p><p>3.  I am pretty sure I would raid a hell of a lot more if I could hold my own against BL/Scouts, Wizards, and Warlocks.  In similar gear obviously.</p><p>4.  Most of these games end up where melee DPS just kills all other on parses...so why do we bother even complaining?</p>

[daray]

<p><cite>N</cite><cite>G23985_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Buffrat, even with 100% cast speed and 56% recovery speed, it isn't possible to get off Fusion, Ice Comet, AND Ball of Fire on a Time Warp.</p></blockquote><p>It is possible, but you have to get your precast timing down right (you just need the spell to land during the time warp window to get the double - with the exception of Iceshield, which works the other way around, and is often a good spell to squeeze in at the end). Also, if you are getting Time Warp you probably should have TC, so recovery speed will be closer to 100 (and over 100 with a bard).</p><p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't have a Mystic in my group, and thus I don't get Bolster.</p></blockquote><p>Bolster is cross-raid castable.</p><p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't understand what you mean when you say Wizards get more out of INT buffs than others, unless you mean from Sanguine Sacrifice.</p></blockquote><p>Sanguine Sacrifice, Manaburn, mythical ability mod proc is the benefit you get from increased INT over your regular spell array. Those 3 are what makes wizards one of the prime candidates for Bolster.</p><p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What bosses require a lot of moving? King Tormax, Tert, and some others in Drunder. (Don't have names off the top of my head.) The movement problem is also noticable on trash mobs. I can do almost nothing while I'm getting up in melee range to cast Fusion and BoD while scouts are free to used ranged autoattack and move up close.</p></blockquote><p>I guess there are 2 points here. Yes, it is true that significant movement requirements will hinder our dps, but that is true of any class whose dps is based upon continual combat (as perhaps opposed to others with lengthier cool-downs). And yes, we ideally need to be within 10m to maximize our outgoing with a noticeable enough drop if we are forced to range, but that is true of other mage dps classes too (but perhaps to a lesser extent). I always stay in as much as possible, and that includes trash - but I can see how others with lesser gear might have issues with those much over-used Whirling Attack / Elemental something AEs.</p><p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Next, my melee autoattack does less than my SW autoattack. My ranged wand is a little bit better than my primary slot though so this probably accounts for the difference. Melee gives me 300-500 dps, SW 400-600, and since SW doesn't require micromanagement like melee autoattack, I make no effort to use melee autoattack.</p></blockquote> <p>You really shouldn't give your ranged auto dps much thought. The best way to look at it, is just a way to better equalize overall proc rates between you and your melee counterparts. Your spell auto counts as a combat hit, so, as just one example, will proc the melee portion of your Frigid Gift (assuming you have that enhancement, which you ought to). Now factor in all the additional procs you are getting from all sources. Also, the only argument for using your primary as a mage, is if you are a melee-speced chanter (at the cost of the often better-stated ranged wands because of how ranged auto with a wand is toggled on).</p><p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Why do you say Wizards dont need another temporary buff? Looking at Sorcerer classes, and excluding the temporary buffs that we share with each other, Wizard has Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro. Warlock has Focused Casting, Curse of Darkness, Gift of Bertoxxulous and Netherrealm! (Wizard = 2, Warlock = 4) Sanguine Sacrifice isn't the godly spell that you make it out to be. Sure, it is useful, but I've calculated that it only improves my outgoing damage by about 14% for its duration. This is nice, but it is well suited for sustained DPS, not burst DPS</p></blockquote> <p>Wizards don't need to be buffed directly. If anything, any <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>perceived</em></span> discrepencies <em>could</em> be addressed where there are indirect disparities (e.g. relative gains from TC vs UT). Anyone wanting the class to be directly boosted is just wasting their energy (~ before you start adding in buffs, wizards are actually one of the stronger classes).</p><p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>I knew somebody would try to make the argument that Summoners deserve T1 dps because they "don't have utility" so I have prepared a counterargument to prove that Summoners do have a lot more utility than true T1 dps classes.<strong></strong></p><p><strong>~Long list of mostly meaningless / largely negligible things~</strong></p><p>I could have missed some things, but I think I have successfully proven my point that Summoners have vastly more utility (in quality and quantity) than true T1 dps classes. It cannot be legitimately said that Summoners have no more utility than T1 dps classes. If summoners are to have T1 dps, then Wizard, Warlock, Assassin and Ranger need to be given one raidwide buff each. I'd rather just have the original DPS tiers be honored though.</p></blockquote> <p>Summoners are high T1 dps atm due to a "feature" (easily competing with the rest of our dps, especially on AE encounters). Expect them to be slightly behind sorcerers/predators if that ever gets addressed. Summoner dps is highly reliant on group damage procs, and extra entities procing those procs for them, so group make-up in that regard is important for them. Summoners ought to be less reliant on procs for their dps, but this isn't really the place to discuss this.</p> <p>Anyway ...</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">At the end of the day though, it is hard to make a call on this, which is why I have stayed out of this until now. We each play in our small circles of people, and, really, such small, individual data samples just aren't conclusive. There is just no way to easily quantify things such as:</span></p><ul><li><span style="color: #ff6600;">Relative skill (Are any differences skewed either way (or hidden) by relative skill difference of players?).</span></li><li><span style="color: #ff6600;">Encounter design (We excel on some encounters and don't do so well on others).</span></li><li><span style="color: #ff6600;">Your guild's raid strategies and mob/your positioning (Can have a huge impact).</span></li><li><span style="color: #ff6600;">As well as some of the more obvious things, which don't need listing.</span></li></ul>

[Shotneedle]

<p><cite>NG23985_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">UTILITY THAT MATTERS:</span></p><p>Utility from Wizards:</p><ol><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Converge (small hate xfer)</span></li><li>Frigid Gift (damage proc)</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Mana Intromission (small power transfer)</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Evac (seldom used)</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Portal (NEVER used)</span></li><li>Ro's Blade (3-5k melee dps proc for 3 people)</li><li>Int + str buff</li></ol><p>Utility from Warlocks:</p><ol><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Shroud of Bertoxxulous (damage shield)</span></li><li>Grasp of Bertoxxulous (melee dps proc)</li><li>Curse of Darkness (damage proc)</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">BOon of the Damned (small hate transfer)</span></li><li>Dark Pact (casting skills buff)</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Mana Trickle (small power transfer)</span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">Prop, 4% trigger chance</span></li></ol><p>Utility from Assassins:</p><ol><li> Apply Poison (melee damage proc)</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Evacuate</span></li><li>hate transfer</li><li>Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff</li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">HP Debuffs</span></li></ol><p>Utility from Rangers:</p><ol><li>Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Evacuate</span></li><li>Focus Aim</li></ol><p>Utility from Conjurors:</p><ol><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">Runes of Geomancy (stoneskin proc)</span></span></li><li>Elemental Toxicity (dmg proc)</li><li><strong>F</strong><strong>ire from Within (RAIDWIDE buff from pet: hp, potency, armor effectiveness)</strong></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Cabalistic Conversion (constant power conservation)</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Call of the Hero</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Fire Seed</span> - <span style="color: #ff0000;">pretty sure Fire Seed and Wiz/Warlock melee buffs still don't stack, and wiz/war are better.</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Flame Shield</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Geotic Rune</span></li><li>power Shards -<span style="color: #ff0000;"> useless most of the time</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Reanimate (helps guarantee their DPS by preventing pet death) </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">(same as stoneskins)</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Sacrifice</span></li><li><strong>Stoneskins (group, on-demand stoneskins, very nice)</strong></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">self decreased resist rate buff</span></li></ol><p>Utility from Necromancers:</p><ol><li>Elemental Toxicity</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Cabalistic Conversion</span></li><li>power Hearts - <span style="color: #ff0000;">useless most of the time</span></li><li>Revive - <span style="color: #ff0000;">if you get the chance to use it</span></li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">minor group heals (via consumption and pet spells)</span></li><li>STR/STA/INT/AGI group buff</li><li>Noxious Barrier (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)</li><li><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Reanimate (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)</span> <span style="color: #ff0000;">(same as nox barrier)</span></li><li><strong>Beyond the Grave (RAIDWIDE pet buff: potency, power, weapon accuracy, resistability)</strong></li></ol><p>I could have missed some things, but I think I have successfully proven my point that Summoners have vastly more utility (in quality and quantity) than true T1 dps classes. It cannot be legitimately said that Summoners have no more utility than T1 dps classes. If summoners are to have T1 dps, then Wizard, Warlock, Assassin and Ranger need to be given one raidwide buff each. I'd rather just have the original DPS tiers be honored though.</p></blockquote><p>Fixed.</p><p>After years of complaining about balance, we finally have the 8 dps classes relatively balanced (not counting beastlord, because we all know they're a little OP.) and all wizards do is complain more.</p>

[ericman]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>After years of complaining about balance, we finally have the 8 dps classes relatively balanced (not counting beastlord, because we all know they're a little OP.) and all wizards do is complain more.</p></blockquote><p>Perhaps a lot of people just don't agree that 9 classes competing for the top of the parse is balanced.  It's certainly not interesting or very well thought out (in my opinion). </p><p>If the intent of the developers is to make 4 mage classes (and 5 scout classes) do basically the same amount of dps except that 2 classes have a pet and 2 don't...well I'm just not interested.  Of course the developers never say what they intend so my guess is we'll never know.</p>

[slippery]

Because they do the same dps doesn't mean they get there the same way.

[Banditman]

<p>While it's relatively minor, I'd like to point out that the Conjuror "Group Stoneskins on demand" buff is largely irrelevant in raid content.  The stoneskins ONLY work on hits that are less than 50% of max health.  Anything over 50% of max health cuts right through.</p>

[Loldawg]

<p>Wizards used to be ahead of the pack. They need to try harder now to stay at the head of the pack. I can understand why some are crying. </p><p>Summoner's have a Sol Ro pet that they can put in Dimensional Storage. This is the only thing that's wrong w/ summoner DPS. EB is only up every other TW, and the threat it generates is massive so it's not without risks and it's not up often enough to cry about. Toxicity is nice on AE trash fights but is nothing compared to Frigid Gift. The conjies best stoneskins are for the pet / himself, the groupwide stoneskin's is almost useless in raids b/c its only 50% damage hits or lower. </p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And I think that I should be able to parse side by side with predators and beastlords.    Currently with your mechanics at the endgame, that is not possible!</p></blockquote><p>I would expect the net result of this thread to nerf preds.</p>

[daray]

<p><cite>Loldawg@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Summoner's have a Sol Ro pet that they can put in Dimensional Storage. This is the only thing that's wrong w/ summoner DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Well, that and the pet is now way out of line with other blessings across all deities (as far as their increased output is concerned since pet stat sharing went in). But that applies to anyone using this miracle (including me), and not just summoners (though summoners get better tools to keep the pet alive).</p>

[slippery]

Maybe that was covered in the deity revamp we where supposed to get like 6 months ago

[Shotneedle]

<p>All they need to do is make it not proc procs, then it would put out about the same dps as Hand of Death (as a scout's Hand of Death, anyway).</p>

[Mrpicklez]

<p>Currently, beastlords deal an absurd amount of damage compared to other classes. Especially in the easier content (EM raids, Kael HM raids). I believe this can be easily resolved by giving illusionists a pet AOE immune buff in our enchanter tree.</p>