Coercer vs. Illusionist - What are the Strengths and Weaknesses of Both? Compare and Contrast!

[Dreyco]

<p>Title of the thread says it all... i'm looking to ressurect my coercer/illusionist, and I want to know what the differences are between them?  What does the Illusionist get more of that the Coercer lacks, and visa versa?  What are their strengths and weaknesses?  How do they compare to each other?</p><p>This thread will help me decide where I settle with my character.</p><p>Thank you so much for your feedback!  And please keep things constructive.  I am not really interested in hearing the whole "SOE has neglected illusionists/coercers blah blah blah."  I just want to know a quick and dirty comparison between the two.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Coercers have better power feed options.  Illusionists have better buffs for a Mage group.</p>

[wullailhuit]

<p>Coercers are more 'toe to toe' with mobs having decent melee buffs , illusionists are more root n nuke or stand back and nuke having a decent spell proc buff.</p><p>Coercers pet is non-permanent , you have to get a new one every time you zone  it's a melee pet and does die a lot to AEs.</p><p>Illusionists pets are permanent , they cast a selection of the illusionists own spells and are ranged , the quality of the pets own  spells is based on the quality of the spell used to summon them.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>coercer = survivability</p><p>illy = damage </p><p>  ie. if you have a coercer in your group, your survivability is better than if you had an illy and vise versa if you have an illy in your group then your damage potential is better than if you have a coercer.</p>

[thewarriorpoet]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>coercer = survivability</p><p>illy = damage </p><p>  ie. if you have a coercer in your group, your survivability is better than if you had an illy and vise versa if you have an illy in your group then your damage potential is better than if you have a coercer.</p></blockquote><p>survivability? how so?</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Title of the thread says it all... i'm looking to ressurect my coercer/illusionist, and I want to know what the differences are between them?  What does the Illusionist get more of that the Coercer lacks, and visa versa?  What are their strengths and weaknesses?  How do they compare to each other?</p><p>This thread will help me decide where I settle with my character.</p><p>Thank you so much for your feedback!  And please keep things constructive.  I am not really interested in hearing the whole "SOE has neglected illusionists/coercers blah blah blah."  I just want to know a quick and dirty comparison between the two.</p></blockquote><p>The bottomline is this ... and the same goes for the other 'Extreme' classes.  When content is new and challenging Coercer/Templar/Defiler are prefered over Ill/Inq/Mystic.  Those first classes are more defensive and make hard things easier.  As people gear up and the power shifts from the mobs back over to the players then the reverse offer more offensive benefits.</p><p>IMO, Coercer is more interactive to play.  They will solo better.  They have a certain amount of Melee DPS to contribute.  They have the best power regen and very good hate transfer tools and snaps.  I prefer the Charm pet over the summoned one when soloing as the charmed pet can be a beast due to the new pet stat sharing mechanics.  In raiding summoned pets of both classes is situational at best.  Illy's will buff the heck out of the mages and always be sought after the initial zones have been cleared.</p><p>Keep in mind one thing ... to some degree CC is back, albeit limited.  So the Mezz'ing portion of these two classes might get some more life in the near future.</p>

[Dreyco]

<p>Thanks for the feedback thus far.</p><p>What about in terms of Crowd Control and Utility?  How do they compare?  I've read that Illy's have more mezzes, and coercers have more stuns... but how does that pan out?</p>

[Odys]

<p>Coercers use reactives spells, so magic that will trigger damage on melee hits or other spells. Loading a mob with reactives and letting him litteraly explode once it is done is indeed very funny.</p><p>They also have more tools to deal with agro inside a group, so they allow dps class to generate less hate and tank to generate more hate. They also have a great buf for healers.</p><p>They are more stun oriented and the illusionist is more mezz oriented.</p>

[Odys]

<p>Stuns used to be prefered since they allowed aoe to hit the stunned mobs, but may be it has changed since my coercer get typical mez noises when he use his aoe stun.</p><p>Note that mezzing is to be avoided unless necessary for the group survival, the reason is that mezzing decrease the group dps since mezzed mob are immune to aoe.  But  most content is first broken using mezzers and later people do it without using any mezzing. Illy do have 2 group mezz and coercers only one. I don't remember too well but may be one illy group mezz is open.  An alternative to mezzing is charming, this usually do not work on bosses but may help a lot to turn an ad on your side. As far as i remember only coercers can charm. Due to low recast i rarely found my coercer out of mezzs, and i don't think that the illys extra mezzs are a real asset. Indeed i probably prefer my closed aoe stun.</p><p>Coercers get aoe dps mod, illys get aoe haste not sure which ones caps faster.</p><p>Coercers do not get a reliable pet before 62, then they can copy a mob. The copy partially inherit mob abilties, as example i got lot os issues with cloned berzekers agroing non hostile mobs with open taunts or aoe.</p><p>Coercer do have a large advantage to regen mana once they get their mythical, the can mana flow two groups in one shot (12 people) if using mana flow on someone in another group.</p><p>Coercers used to do much more damage (due to reactives), but illys dps got improved like 1-2 years ago. Today illys probably solo almost as well as coercers (the difference used to be very big, when i betrayed -- for agro tools and healer buf -- i was astonished to see the mob explode once my reactives were set.</p><p>Note that both classes are attractive for any group, and most people will take any of the 2.</p><p>In raid the MT group usually prefer a coercer and mage groups will vote for an illy.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>coercer = survivability</p><p>illy = damage </p><p>  ie. if you have a coercer in your group, your survivability is better than if you had an illy and vise versa if you have an illy in your group then your damage potential is better than if you have a coercer.</p></blockquote><p>survivability? how so?</p></blockquote><p>i duno..  hate generation, heal boost?  passive mana generation unlike the illy myth that requires hostile action?</p><p>    if you don't see that coercer is the survivability enchanter and illy is the damage then clearly you don't understand the classe well and that's ok but please don't question those who do.</p><p> oh dam.. </p><p> did i forget coersive healing?  yea, healing is usually associated with survivability.  weird huh?</p>

[Elomort]

<p><div><div>I will preface this by saying Illy is my main and most loved class.</div><div></div><div>I've played tank and healer extensively in many games, the Illy is the best class to allow me to be a back seat driver. (and of course get most of the mage group's damage to pad my own parse to nice high amounts)</div><div></div><div>As I see it from the Illy side of the fence.</div><ul><li>Illys group buff Int/Wis, Coercers group buff Int/Agi.</li><li>Illies can buff healers a little bit better than a Coercer and of course have the tools to really increase Mage throughput with coercers really increasing melee throughput.</li><li>If set up correctly both have fairly equal ability to transfer hate to fighters and away from others</li><li>Both can easily control multiple mobs at once.</li><li>Both can fire off a lot of situational short term buffs/debuffs</li><li>Illies have the ability to really speed up casting and recovery time while coercers have better ability to give the party power.</li><li>Outside of that they are quite close apart from the pet issue with an Illy pet being permanent and able to do mainly the same spells as the illy with the Coercer being temporary and needing to be refreshed on a zone.</li></ul><div>Both epics allow the main pet to be case without concentration, before that point your ability to buff is reduced by 3 concentration ticks. The Illy epic allows your Rapidity spell to become raid-wide the Coercer gives a power reduction proc.</div><div></div><div>To me the decision came/comes down to do you prefer helping mages or scouts and do you want a permanent pet or the ability to choose the sort of pet you use, the pet being possibly the main driver.</div><div></div><div>One warning with these classes: If you are a person who finds an issue with flashy lights, as in you get headaches, you might want to think of another class. There is huge sound/lightshow with them. Often at the end of a long session my head is truely aching.</div><div></div></div></p>

[Elomort]

<p>And yes, any group is more than happy to take either. Falling over themselves in fact based on my experience.</p>

[Dreyco]

<p>Well then!  This most certainly is not an easy decision to make, heh.</p><p>By the explanation above, that would mean that illusionists are just as good as coercers as enhancing melee DPS in their own way.  It's just different.</p><p>Hrm... so much bleedover... *Ponder*</p>

[thewarriorpoet]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>coercer = survivability</p><p>illy = damage </p><p>  ie. if you have a coercer in your group, your survivability is better than if you had an illy and vise versa if you have an illy in your group then your damage potential is better than if you have a coercer.</p></blockquote><p>survivability? how so?</p></blockquote><p>i duno..  hate generation, heal boost?  passive mana generation unlike the illy myth that requires hostile action?</p><p>    if you don't see that coercer is the survivability enchanter and illy is the damage then clearly you don't understand the classe well and that's ok but please don't question those who do.</p><p> oh dam.. </p><p> did i forget coersive healing?  yea, healing is usually associated with survivability.  weird huh?</p></blockquote><p>Jeez dude. Chill, it was just a question. I play an Illy and don't know thing one about a coercer. I've never grouped with one either, being a chanter myself. Thanks for the info though. But I think I understand how curiosity killed the cat...it asked you a question. =P</p>

[thewarriorpoet]

<p><cite>Elomort wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><ul><li>If set up correctly both have fairly equal ability to transfer hate to fighters and away from others</li></ul></div></blockquote><p>Oh god, maybe but handling hate positions on my Illy takes a lot of effort. If you're mezzing anything, trying to dps at the same time, and keeping up with power and buffs, this is the straw that I can't usually cover. If hate's a problem I end up having to stop dps to start getting mobs off people.</p>

[Odys]

<p>Elormort you say that you buf healers better than a coercer ? I don't deny it, but do you mean that time compression if better than coercive healing ?</p><p>Little extra note : both enchanter have the ability to melee from really far (with the proper aas) and it's quite funny to be a meleing mage.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p>When soloing, I prefer the Coercer for the Charm, Reactives and Melee abilities.  If you charm a caster mob you DPS potential is huge due to shared pet stats, you're basically a Necro/Conjy.  Master level charm spells hardly ever break early.   I feel the Coercer has more tools and DPS when soloing.</p><p>When grouping/raiding ... Coercers have much better power regn and hate transfer .. Illy's have much better Mage buffs and will over all increase the raids DPS because of it.</p><p>In a high end raid you'll most likely see 3 Illy's and 1 Coercer prefered in the setup, at best 2 and 2.  When you get 3 Coercers in a raid they're stepping on each others toes.  Illy's don't get in each others way unless in the same group.</p><p>Their personal DPS in a raid is about equal</p><p>If you're looking for a low population high desire class, these two certainly fall in that category.  I think Illy's are harder to find when grouping or raiding, just like those elusive Trouby's.  Both are welcome in groups, but Wizards don't like to leave the guild hall unless they have an Illy or Trouby becasue they can't get their million point manaburns off.</p><p>Groups with high end geared players prefer Illy's ... groups with weak tanking or melee prefer Coercers.  If the group has a Dirge then Illy is prefered, if the group has a Trouby then a Coercer will be needed for the Hate transfers.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>We actually run 3 Coercers, 1 Illy in our raids.  It's not a problem.</p><p>The people who really lose out without an Illy are people who have extremely large hits that can DA with a TW.  Conjurors, Wizards and Warlocks mainly.  Honestly, most Mages would rather have a Troub than an Illy, if they could have only one of the two.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We actually run 3 Coercers, 1 Illy in our raids.  It's not a problem.</p><p>The people who really lose out without an Illy are people who have extremely large hits that can DA with a TW.  Conjurors, Wizards and Warlocks mainly.  Honestly, most Mages would rather have a Troub than an Illy, if they could have only one of the two.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed Bandit, I think the mix of Illys and Coercers comes down to a few things ... need of the raid verses desire of the player on the toon.  Since most raids are going to have MT/OT/Mage/Scout groups in general there is room for many combos of chanters.  Raid targets and gear levels will have a lot to do with this as well... whether its 3-1, 2-2, 1-3, of a mix of 3 not 4 chanters.  If the raid is scout heavy or mage heavy will have some leverage as well.  It's more about the person playing the chanter than the chanter class itself.</p>

[Rijacki]

<p><cite>Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Coercers are more 'toe to toe' with mobs having decent melee buffs , illusionists are more root n nuke or stand back and nuke having a decent spell proc buff.</p><p>Coercers pet is non-permanent , you have to get a new one every time you zone  it's a melee pet and does die a lot to AEs.</p><p>Illusionists pets are permanent , they cast a selection of the illusionists own spells and are ranged , the quality of the pets own  spells is based on the quality of the spell used to summon them.</p></blockquote><p>The class of a Coercer's pet depends 100% on the class of the NPC from which it was made. If you want a mage pet, find a mage mob to make the pet from. If you want a melee pet, find a melee mob. It's entirely variable. But, it does not last past zoning, that's correct. It's also correct that pet quality is based on the quality of the spell to summon them (but the level of the charm only affects its duration, not its quality).</p><p>Coercers have 2 kinds of pets which have 2 entirely different properties: Charm and Possess Essence. A Charm pet is better as a caster. A PE is better as a melee. If a PE is a caster, it gets the same limitations as the illusionist personna. Charm pets, especially casters, can be pretty amazing, even with the limitations on them in RoK+ (maximum damage output).</p><p>Charm pets, though, are the most transitory of all. The pet has a 'chance to resist' periodically while the spell is on it. If the charm breaks (either through an untimely resist or the duration running out) your sceen flashes yellow and... depending on circumstances, your opportunity to die is high. However, charm can be used on NPCs of a higher level than the caster and retain their level even when charmed, but a heroic charmed pet's damage output will be nerfed to non-heroic. Mobs of a level higher than the caster have a higher chance to resist, but risk/reward fun of an orange or even low-red pet can be amazing. As a coercer, I actually hate to see areas 'greening out' as I go up in levels 'cause the fun factor of high risk goes down. PE pets are always the level of the caster no matter what con colour the mob they're taken from. PE, though is a level 65 (?) spell. PE pets can be fun in that -anything- (almost) is a potential pet, but boring 'cause there's no risk with them (the don't have a chance to break, you keep them until you die, zone, or dismiss).</p><p>I have found I can't play an illusionist (at least not a newbie one) since I try to play it like my raid coercer *laugh*. However, gameplay-wise coercer is my favourite class.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>coercer = survivability</p><p>illy = damage </p><p>  ie. if you have a coercer in your group, your survivability is better than if you had an illy and vise versa if you have an illy in your group then your damage potential is better than if you have a coercer.</p></blockquote><p>survivability? how so?</p></blockquote><p>i duno..  hate generation, heal boost?  passive mana generation unlike the illy myth that requires hostile action?</p><p>    if you don't see that coercer is the survivability enchanter and illy is the damage then clearly you don't understand the classe well and that's ok but please don't question those who do.</p><p> oh dam.. </p><p> did i forget coersive healing?  yea, healing is usually associated with survivability.  weird huh?</p></blockquote><p>Jeez dude. Chill, it was just a question. I play an Illy and don't know thing one about a coercer. I've never grouped with one either, being a chanter myself. Thanks for the info though. But I think I understand how curiosity killed the cat...it asked you a question. =P</p></blockquote><p>  i respectfuly apologice.</p><p>   it's hard to know when sarcasam is in play or when it's an honest question these days <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[thewarriorpoet]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>coercer = survivability</p><p>illy = damage </p><p>  ie. if you have a coercer in your group, your survivability is better than if you had an illy and vise versa if you have an illy in your group then your damage potential is better than if you have a coercer.</p></blockquote><p>survivability? how so?</p></blockquote><p>i duno..  hate generation, heal boost?  passive mana generation unlike the illy myth that requires hostile action?</p><p>    if you don't see that coercer is the survivability enchanter and illy is the damage then clearly you don't understand the classe well and that's ok but please don't question those who do.</p><p> oh dam.. </p><p> did i forget coersive healing?  yea, healing is usually associated with survivability.  weird huh?</p></blockquote><p>Jeez dude. Chill, it was just a question. I play an Illy and don't know thing one about a coercer. I've never grouped with one either, being a chanter myself. Thanks for the info though. But I think I understand how curiosity killed the cat...it asked you a question. =P</p></blockquote><p>  i respectfuly apologice.</p><p>   it's hard to know when sarcasam is in play or when it's an honest question these days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No worries! I could have been more clear. We need a sarcastic and a serious smiley....been saying it for years.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> i respectfuly apologice.<p>   it's hard to know when sarcasam is in play or when it's an honest question these days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>~apologize</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> i respectfuly apologice.<p>   it's hard to know when sarcasam is in play or when it's an honest question these days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>~apologize</p></blockquote><p>  stay on topic, this isn't the sppiilliinngg beiie thread~</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> i respectfuly apologice.<p>   it's hard to know when sarcasam is in play or when it's an honest question these days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>~apologize</p></blockquote><p>  stay on topic, this isn't the sppiilliinngg beiie thread~</p></blockquote><p><phone rings> Hello, pot this is kettle calling!</p>

[wullailhuit]

<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Coercers are more 'toe to toe' with mobs having decent melee buffs , illusionists are more root n nuke or stand back and nuke having a decent spell proc buff.</p><p>Coercers pet is non-permanent , you have to get a new one every time you zone  it's a melee pet and does die a lot to AEs.</p><p>Illusionists pets are permanent , they cast a selection of the illusionists own spells and are ranged , the quality of the pets own  spells is based on the quality of the spell used to summon them.</p></blockquote><p>The class of a Coercer's pet depends 100% on the class of the NPC from which it was made. If you want a mage pet, find a mage mob to make the pet from. If you want a melee pet, find a melee mob. It's entirely variable. But, it does not last past zoning, that's correct. It's also correct that pet quality is based on the quality of the spell to summon them (but the level of the charm only affects its duration, not its quality).</p><p>Coercers have 2 kinds of pets which have 2 entirely different properties: Charm and Possess Essence. A Charm pet is better as a caster. A PE is better as a melee. If a PE is a caster, it gets the same limitations as the illusionist personna. Charm pets, especially casters, can be pretty amazing, even with the limitations on them in RoK+ (maximum damage output).</p><p>Charm pets, though, are the most transitory of all. The pet has a 'chance to resist' periodically while the spell is on it. If the charm breaks (either through an untimely resist or the duration running out) your sceen flashes yellow and... depending on circumstances, your opportunity to die is high. However, charm can be used on NPCs of a higher level than the caster and retain their level even when charmed, but a heroic charmed pet's damage output will be nerfed to non-heroic. Mobs of a level higher than the caster have a higher chance to resist, but risk/reward fun of an orange or even low-red pet can be amazing. As a coercer, I actually hate to see areas 'greening out' as I go up in levels 'cause the fun factor of high risk goes down. PE pets are always the level of the caster no matter what con colour the mob they're taken from. PE, though is a level 65 (?) spell. PE pets can be fun in that -anything- (almost) is a potential pet, but boring 'cause there's no risk with them (the don't have a chance to break, you keep them until you die, zone, or dismiss).</p><p>I have found I can't play an illusionist (at least not a newbie one) since I try to play it like my raid coercer *laugh*. However, gameplay-wise coercer is my favourite class.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure the bit about the class of the PE being from the mob it's made of is right , from what I remember , the class of the PE is made randomly when it's created.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I'm not sure the bit about the class of the PE being from the mob it's made of is right , from what I remember , the class of the PE is made randomly when it's created. </blockquote><p>It is commonly assumed that when creating a PE pet that it's class is determined by the class of the mob which is the target of the PE.  Although 80% of the PE's damage will all come from the same source, that being Confound.  The writeup in the link is old, but still valuable.  If a Coercer wants to use a pet and is not in a raid, then charm will be a much higher damage potential 99.9% of the time due to the new shared pet stats.</p><p>"a possessed essence will default to its class type and gain access to a limited selection of profession abilities "</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Coercer_Pet_Strategies#Charm_or_Possess_Essence">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Coercer_P...Possess_Essence</a></p>