Ok lets try it again... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Netty

01-06-2012, 11:46 PM

Are you doing anything about tank balance? are you looking at it? Do you know how unbalance the tanks are? So tiered of not having a red name telling us atleast something about anything. I have sent PM:s many have made threads but they just keep getting ignored. Tradeskill threads and stuff about housing get alot of red names in those threads.Berserks is by far one of the worst tanks in raids atm. Solo is fine. groupage is fine. Raiding is just... Surviveability need to be looked at yet everything sems to go by blind eyes. Can someone pls atleast say if you know it is a problem or if you think its ok? New expansion did nothing about the unbalanced of the tanks as all focus did fall on the beastlord class...Adrenaline need to be looked at again... Wall of force need to be a stone skin vs all damage. The inc damage as it is need to be lowered. Im by far the hardest tank class to keep up with the normal inc damage if you ask my healers (when i play my zerk that is) And we dont have anything to counter Death touch and so on. Hit rates are very low. The dps when being forced to use a shield is a joke for both warrior vs the other tank classes. Aggro on the zerk is just meh vs my guardian or my monk. Every time you have to put a shield on the dps drops down with huge numbers. and when DWing (losing all uncontested avoidance) We still dont parse as well as some of the other tank classes can.Pls atleast say something xelgad. Anything would be better than nothing at all as it is right now.

Bruener

01-07-2012, 01:34 AM

I feel the frustration.Fighter balance is by far the worst it has ever been at end game. You can split the Fighter classes in half and on one side you have the Fighters that have more than enough tools to tank end game. And than on the other side you have the half that require extra care from healers and some luck.So, SOE has basically balanced the agro of Fighters to be a non-issue no matter what Fighter you are. They have made DPS differences a non-issue no matter what Fighter you are because of the huge disparity that T1 DPS has over everybody else while the difference between Fighters is minimal. And yet they have let Survivability be a glaringly obvious issue with 3 classes having a whole bag of tools to handle spike damage and 2 of those Fighters having a huge avoidance advantage.Believe me. They know it is unbalanced. That just makes it even more frustrating when there is still no concrete changes on the horizon.

Novusod

01-08-2012, 03:44 AM

Will you two give it a rest already. Every month or so you guys make the same stupid thread and rehash the same stupid arguements. It gets old so I don't blame the red names for just completely ignoring you.There are only two conclusions that ever come out of these threads.1. Yes, the Berserker needs to have adrenaline looked at if not fully restored to the way it was.2. Tank avoidance is working as intended and does not need adjusting.Everything else involves just minor adjustments that doesn't require these massive whine threads. Use /feedback and post in your class specific forums. Making up hyperbole about fighter ballance being the worst ever is a good way to get ignored.

Netty

01-08-2012, 01:55 PM

And why are we making these threads you think? Since nothing happens. No one is saying anything. I want balance. I want my class fixed. If you dont like these threads well dont read then? The same stupid thread well maybe you are right. But if things would get looked at maybe we dident have to make the same stupid thread every month or so? As i said no one is forcing you to read it so dont if you dont like it and let me speak my mind about stuff.And all tho i dont agree with B all the time hes right. Tank balance is the worst as it has ever been. Since 3 of the tanks cant tank most end game since they are lacking the tools to do so. In every other expansion even if a tank class have been after you still dident need a short recast stone skin on half the fights to be able to survive.

Novusod

01-08-2012, 09:20 PM

Nothing happens because you are being intelectually dishonest. I have a real problem with you saying ballance is the "worst ever" because it is nonsence. In fact Tank ballance is probably the best it has ever been. All the tanks are viable OTs and 5 of the 6 tanks can MT. That is the best record they ever had as far as ballance goes. I remember a time when guardian was the only viable MT and Zerker was by far the best OT. There was a plate tank monopoly but that is never coming back now. What we have in DoV is good tank ballance.Also how many of these whine threads do you need? There are two other threads still at the top of the first page saying the same stuff by the same people. The Mods should probably lock this one because you are just trolling at this point. Nobody likes all this whiny crybaby threads all over the place.

Bruener

01-08-2012, 10:43 PM

The best ever. That is a good one. You mean if half the Fighters completely own the end game tanking realm while the other half are fillers for when you can't find a Brawler or Guardian than yeah...that is just so balanced.Really the only reason these posts seem to upset you so much is because you know that the nerf bat is going to be swinging your way. It is long long overdue and the longer it takes the harder it usually falls.Heroic is balanced. End game is just aweful.

Netty

01-08-2012, 11:00 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nothing happens because you are being intelectually dishonest. I have a real problem with you saying ballance is the "worst ever" because it is nonsence. In fact Tank ballance is probably the best it has ever been. All the tanks are viable OTs and 5 of the 6 tanks can MT. That is the best record they ever had as far as ballance goes. I remember a time when guardian was the only viable MT and Zerker was by far the best OT. There was a plate tank monopoly but that is never coming back now. What we have in DoV is good tank ballance.Also how many of these whine threads do you need? There are two other threads still at the top of the first page saying the same stuff by the same people. The Mods should probably lock this one because you are just trolling at this point. Nobody likes all this whiny crybaby threads all over the place.</blockquote>How is tank balance the best ever? All tanks have been able to tank everything up untill now. It just was harder for some other tank classes. So again what makes the tanks so balanced now in your opinion? Pls tell me i want to know. Ofcs you are happy since you are at the top now. Im not asking for nerfs im asking for fixes and if you think me make the 2 threads i have. 1 pre expansion and 1 now is spam there is something wrong with you really.If ppl dont post nothing will get fixed. This thread is to ask for fixes not your personal opinion about stuff. As i said if you dont like it dont post in it. Ignore it. Since im not going to rest untill i get my class fixed and tanks balanced again.What time was the zerk the best OT i wonder? the only expansion i rember zerks being worth something is SF.

Novusod

01-09-2012, 07:42 AM

@ Netty: If you really wanted to help Berserkers you should be posting in threads like <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=512402" target="_blank">this one</a>. Small adjustments are the order of the day but for some reason you don't want that.I will tell you exactly when Zerkers had their moment of glory as the go to OT. It started in EoF when they allowed Zerkers to use their buckler AA spec with with a Tower Shield equiped. Then in RoK they got adrenaline and Mythical that gave them 100% AE autos all the time while no other tank had the ability to hold multiple adds as well as the zerker. In TSO the SK kind of eclipsed the zerker but they held up well enough through the expansion and into SF. I have been around a long time so I know the history of the tank classes very well. The Zerker is a little on the weak side in DoV but the class is by no means broken.You don't even know what broken is if you didn't play brawler tank in EoF though the middle of TSO when scouts with sheilds were better tanks than brawlers and everyone knew it. Try having no death prevent at all before SF, no stoneskins, no damage reductions, paper armor, avoidance that was totally broken, and epics immune to your biggest taunt. Those issues are fixed now so you can't actually see what broken is because there aren't any totally broken classes anymore. That is why I say tank ballance is the best it has realistically ever been. No tank is totally is broken. They are all playable and workable in end game. Xelgad has done a very good job at fixing what actually needs to be fixed. He knows the truth of what I speak here.

Netty

01-09-2012, 03:02 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>@ Netty: If you really wanted to help Berserkers you should be posting in threads like <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=512402" target="_blank">this one</a>. Small adjustments are the order of the day but for some reason you don't want that.I will tell you exactly when Zerkers had their moment of glory as the go to OT. It started in EoF when they allowed Zerkers to use their buckler AA spec with with a Tower Shield equiped. Then in RoK they got adrenaline and Mythical that gave them 100% AE autos all the time while no other tank had the ability to hold multiple adds as well as the zerker. In TSO the SK kind of eclipsed the zerker but they held up well enough through the expansion and into SF. I have been around a long time so I know the history of the tank classes very well. The Zerker is a little on the weak side in DoV but the class is by no means broken.You don't even know what broken is if you didn't play brawler tank in EoF though the middle of TSO when scouts with sheilds were better tanks than brawlers and everyone knew it. Try having no death prevent at all before SF, no stoneskins, no damage reductions, paper armor, avoidance that was totally broken, and epics immune to your biggest taunt. Those issues are fixed now so you can't actually see what broken is because there aren't any totally broken classes anymore. That is why I say tank ballance is the best it has realistically ever been. No tank is totally is broken. They are all playable and workable in end game. Xelgad has done a very good job at fixing what actually needs to be fixed. He knows the truth of what I speak here.</blockquote>The only of the warrior that could use a towershield with the buckler AA was the old guardian mythical. EoF was a guardian pally. No tank could tank adds aswell as a pally. In rok we got adrenaline aye. But we had kinda much - snap aggro tools vs guardian reinforcement and pally HG. Tso was crusder love all over. zerks worked fine tho but was not near the best of any as you claim. SF is the only expansion that the zerk has been a awsome raid tank. And sf was by far the most balance expansion for tank in every singel way. with only the guardian lacking in that expansion.This thread is not about nerfing you class. Xelgad might have done a good job with brawlers but a bad one with zerk. Try and tank some hm stuff on a zerk and see how you like it. I will ask you again. If you dont agree you dont need to say anything els about it. Just keep out and let those that know how badly balance stuff is try and get it sorted.

Bruener

01-09-2012, 03:21 PM

That is probably the worst interpretation of the history of EQ2 that I have ever seen. First, the buckler line was not useable with a Tower shield for a Zerker until something like late RoK, early TSO. Guards were able to equip a Tower shield with the buckler line with their Mythical which was OP'd at the time. After that they changed the buckler line and nerfed the Guard mythical.RoK Guards plain were the kings in both the MT and OT position for most content....with a few Avatar encounter making it nice to have a Paladin or Zerk on the roster for actually having AE content.Really in the history of this game no xpac was more balanced for Fighters than SF once Guards got some fixes. All Fighters were very viable tanks. Some were better MTs and some were better OTs. Brawlers had most of the tools that they have now unfortunately a lot of them just didn't figure out how to optimize their toons. Part of why it was balanced is you did not have the big one shot mechanics on almost every AE round like you do now and mobs did not have a lot of strike through. Forward to DoV beta and Crusaders/Zerkers see nerfs and get terrible Heroic AAs. Brawlers get even more added into their arsenal and they create an xpac with an extremely overused strike through mechanic along with one shot AE's gallore. Further in you start getting into MA from mobs used more and more and even into procs based on hit doing tons of damage. Meanwhile even though the +mit mechanic was nerfed Brawlers were more than supplemented on their gear having higher mitigation reaching close to levels that Plate tanks have and with damage reduction capabilities physical hits do no more damage to them than they do to Plate tanks. Move into AoD and nothing has changed. Strike through still creates too large of an avoidance difference gap, something that with how MAs and those large procs work means a lot more damage taken. AEs still on a regular rotation to one shot. No gap in Physical damage. Oh, I forgot the mechanic of needing constant hate position abilities to grab adds on a regular rotation...something that what do you know Guards and Brawler excel at.Novusod your history is just plain wrong. As stated before half the tanks seem to have all the tools they need to make the mechanics since DoV to deal with way easier while the other half are being replaced because it has been since SF since they have been on the same playing field.The sad part is Xelgad knows exactly what is going on along with most of the Devs. Unlike you I have talked to them. Too much on the plate though has just delayed balancing Fighters for way way way too long.

Aull

01-10-2012, 01:34 AM

Personally I am just glad to see some posts here on eq2 forums. While I do think SOE has done a great job bringing brawlers up I do think that the strikethrough mechanic needs to be done away with totally in all aspects of the game. Just flat rooted out and dissolved.I don't think that there will ever be "balance" because what ever one fighter gets that assists them in areas where they lack the other fighters will holler. That being said I do believe that each fighter should have something that separates them from each other especially in the sub-classes. The only two that are really not alike are zerker and guardian. There for a while zerkers had the upper hand over guards simply because a zerker had just enough good defensive abilities plus an array of better offense as well where the guard was simply tougher on the harder mobs.As for the brawlers they have been almost clones of each other. This year I would give an advantage to the monk because their defensive durations are longer and refresh quicker and their offense is far quicker. Over all both brawlers are shinning defensively just due to the immunity they have on their defensive stances.I hope that the devs get back together and put us some new looks on fighters. That keeps it interesting.

Landiin

01-10-2012, 08:51 PM

Oh look it's 2012 and Bruener is still QQing about tanks. Hey buddy, you class had the run of the place for 3 exp. Time to let it go. Tanks are pretty much ballanced every one but a had full agrees with this. Zerks need a tad bit adjusting and then every tank can do every tank roll. OMG!

Bruener

01-10-2012, 09:28 PM

I see a Brawler and a Guard saying things are balanced. LOL.You are right though. I have been spouting the same stuff since DoV beta, when things were obvious on the path Fighter balance was gonna go down. Still hasn't changed so why would I be saying anything different.Go elsewhere tool.

Gungo

01-11-2012, 03:30 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see a Brawler and a Guard saying things are balanced. LOL.You are right though. I have been spouting the same stuff since DoV beta, when things were obvious on the path Fighter balance was gonna go down. Still hasn't changed so why would I be saying anything different.Go elsewhere tool.</blockquote>Didnt you quit. O nm you lied again.Look darkonx maintanks raids just fine on his shadowknight. Maybe you should learn to play better. Zerks are still badly off and paladins still need a reliable stone skin.But your bs about fighters are worse now then ever is completely off. Strikethrough is completely a non issue, co-op strike is a non issue. Most one shot aoes you dont even need a stoneskin for. Paladins are tanking aoes that use to 1 shot kill tanks like haldanes elemental without stoneskins/deathsaves.Right now the biggest issue for some tanks is hitrates in drunder with some tanks putting up 50-60% hitrates and some tanks in 70- 80%. But survivavbility is not an issue for ANY tank unless you suck at your class.

Gungo

01-11-2012, 03:34 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really the only reason these posts seem to upset you so much is because you know that the nerf bat is going to be swinging your way. It is long long overdue and the longer it takes the harder it usually falls.</blockquote>You are so off its not even funny. Have you seen the new mythical cloaks with class based buffs. Monks win out again.You honestly have no clue what you are talking about.

Bruener

01-11-2012, 12:50 PM

Hey look, another Brawler thinking everything is just fine.As far as Dark I know for a fact what he thinks of balance and I know why he was rolling up the Monk. Sure a SK/Zerk/Paladin can MT. You just have to stack up those Defensive healers and call for those cross raid saves. Meanwhile Guard/Brawler you just do it all on your own with way less defensive need which is all around way better for the raid.This is why you will see nerfs eventually. Not sure if it will come out as straight up nerfs or if you will just see content released not catering to them at all along with not given jack in the future. Either way its nerfs.Its borderline hilarious reading posts from Brawlers and Guards saying how balanced things are. Meanwhile thread after thread from Crusaders and Zerkers have continually popped up talking about how imbalanced it is. There wasn't half as much disgruntlement from Fighters in SF, except for Guards who got their fixes they needed at the end (although even than idiots couldn't recognize how good the changes were for Guards with what they were given along with the implementation of the casting bar on mobs).We went from the end of SF where all tanks were very good. Some better in the MT role others better in the OT role. But all extremely viable without having to completely change a whole raids compilation. Any Fighter could slide into any role easily. Now you have those that excel at taking one shots and snap agro, Guards/Brawlers and than you have those that don't. The content is all about one shots and snaps...go figure.There is only 1 encounter I can think of since DoV that you MIGHT have an advantage of choosing a Zerker or Crusader to OT on versus a Brawler or Guard...and that is probably highly debatable. There is not a single encounter at all since DoV that a Zerker or Crusader would have an advantage MT'ing on. That is imbalance.~Oh by the way thanks for supporting my opinion that the Monk is probably the best Fighter Mythical cloak out there~

Novusod

01-11-2012, 01:34 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey look, another Brawler thinking everything is just fine.As far as Dark I know for a fact what he thinks of balance and I know why he was rolling up the Monk. Sure a SK/Zerk/Paladin can MT. You just have to stack up those Defensive healers and call for those cross raid saves. Meanwhile Guard/Brawler you just do it all on your own with way less defensive need which is all around way better for the raid.This is why you will see nerfs eventually. Not sure if it will come out as straight up nerfs or if you will just see content released not catering to them at all along with not given jack in the future. Either way its nerfs.Its borderline hilarious reading posts from Brawlers and Guards saying how balanced things are. Meanwhile thread after thread from Crusaders and Zerkers have continually popped up talking about how imbalanced it is. There wasn't half as much disgruntlement from Fighters in SF, except for Guards who got their fixes they needed at the end (although even than idiots couldn't recognize how good the changes were for Guards with what they were given along with the implementation of the casting bar on mobs).We went from the end of SF where all tanks were very good. Some better in the MT role others better in the OT role. But all extremely viable without having to completely change a whole raids compilation. Any Fighter could slide into any role easily. Now you have those that excel at taking one shots and snap agro, Guards/Brawlers and than you have those that don't. The content is all about one shots and snaps...go figure.There is only 1 encounter I can think of since DoV that you MIGHT have an advantage of choosing a Zerker or Crusader to OT on versus a Brawler or Guard...and that is probably highly debatable. There is not a single encounter at all since DoV that a Zerker or Crusader would have an advantage MT'ing on. That is imbalance.~Oh by the way thanks for supporting my opinion that the Monk is probably the best Fighter Mythical cloak out there~</blockquote>1. There is already lots of content that doesn't cater to brawlers. Pretty much any encounter that has lots of adds spawning at the same time. If by nerfs you mean the status quo will continue then yeah you are right.2. As for the whine threads you and the OP created half of them. There isn't exactly a whole lot of uproar over tank imballance here. The silent majority is pretty satisfied.3. SK does very well in hardmode drunder. Best combo for Mystikus Terrorwing Hardmode is Guard + SK with no brawler needed.

Elskidor

01-11-2012, 01:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey look, another Brawler thinking everything is just fine.</blockquote>Reminds me of Inquisitors. Of course a class will step up to defend their overpowered uberness. SKs did it all the time before the nerf bat hit. A perfect balance would be great to see one day.

Bruener

01-11-2012, 03:45 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. There is already lots of content that doesn't cater to brawlers. Pretty much any encounter that has lots of adds spawning at the same time. If by nerfs you mean the status quo will continue then yeah you are right.Wrong. For one there are not a lot of encounters that spawn "lots" of adds. All Fighters have those easy grab tools to grab a group of mobs. However, some fighters have more snaps that are up more often to handle the required mechanic in todays game where you HAVE to snap a mob onto you from the MT and when they wipe. 2. As for the whine threads you and the OP created half of them. There isn't exactly a whole lot of uproar over tank imballance here. The silent majority is pretty satisfied. Actually there are a lot of threads that weren't started by me and Netty. I will admit I am pretty vocal in them because just like in DoV beta it was extremely obvious and despite what you "think" it hasn't gotten better. AEs still easily 1 shot the tanks unless they have a save. Add mobs still need lots of snap capability to handle the best.3. SK does very well in hardmode drunder. Best combo for Mystikus Terrorwing Hardmode is Guard + SK with no brawler needed.So you figured out the 1 encounter that I said Crusaders and Zerkers might actually be a better OT on. 1 encounter.</blockquote>The fact of it is despite how "inflated" SK numbers got people are hardly playing them. Just like people are hardly playing Paladins and Zerkers. End game rosters in less than 1 xpac were completely re-arranged specifically around Brawlers. The SK WW channel is dead, and I mean dead. It hasn't been this quiet since RoK.Really though we all knew how OP'd Brawlers were right when DoV started and a few of you are just trying to hang on as long as possible. Unfortunately they let it get to the point where the rest of us want to see the nerf bat drop hard instead of them fixing the issues that were glaringly obvious right at the offset.

Gungo

01-13-2012, 03:21 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey look, another Brawler thinking everything is just fine.As far as Dark I know for a fact what he thinks of balance and I know why he was rolling up the Monk. Sure a SK/Zerk/Paladin can MT. You just have to stack up those Defensive healers and call for those cross raid saves. Meanwhile Guard/Brawler you just do it all on your own with way less defensive need which is all around way better for the raid.This is why you will see nerfs eventually. Not sure if it will come out as straight up nerfs or if you will just see content released not catering to them at all along with not given jack in the future. Either way its nerfs.Its borderline hilarious reading posts from Brawlers and Guards saying how balanced things are. Meanwhile thread after thread from Crusaders and Zerkers have continually popped up talking about how imbalanced it is. There wasn't half as much disgruntlement from Fighters in SF, except for Guards who got their fixes they needed at the end (although even than idiots couldn't recognize how good the changes were for Guards with what they were given along with the implementation of the casting bar on mobs).We went from the end of SF where all tanks were very good. Some better in the MT role others better in the OT role. But all extremely viable without having to completely change a whole raids compilation. Any Fighter could slide into any role easily. Now you have those that excel at taking one shots and snap agro, Guards/Brawlers and than you have those that don't. The content is all about one shots and snaps...go figure.There is only 1 encounter I can think of since DoV that you MIGHT have an advantage of choosing a Zerker or Crusader to OT on versus a Brawler or Guard...and that is probably highly debatable. There is not a single encounter at all since DoV that a Zerker or Crusader would have an advantage MT'ing on. That is imbalance.~Oh by the way thanks for supporting my opinion that the Monk is probably the best Fighter Mythical cloak out there~</blockquote>Your trying to jump on the zerker failboat but sorry shadowknights are not that bad off. Shadowknights are still way better then zerkers and better off then paladins. Dark made the monk BEFORE the nerfs to strikethrough and COOP. He plays his shadowknight on MOST content. He doesnt even like playing his monk. I litterally had to grind faction for his monk so he could buy red runes for his weapons and DOV red runes for his armour because he was using SF adorns. He doesnt use his monk except when its absolutely needed in content.You are an idiot. You keep saying brawlers are not getting jack int he future and they still keeping getting some of the best effects. Just like the monk mythical cloak. The only one arguably better for another figther is the paladin one and thats only if the paladin one behaves like equillibrium and not just a heal. You have no idea what your talking about and never have.

Bruener

01-14-2012, 12:17 PM

The fact is none of you "brawlers" that love the current status quo can name a single encounter since DoV that is better to have either Crusader or Zerker to MT on over either Brawler or a Guard. Even further you can't name any encounter besides Terrorwing since DoV that is better to have either Crusader or Zerker OT on over either Brawler or Guard either.That is a far scream from balance.It is far overdue for a change.

Novusod

01-15-2012, 01:02 AM

Shoukin just killed Tyrax Terrolus Hardmode with SK as the MT. I know I was there. The "far overdue change" already happened, you just have not seen it yet. The content seems to be shifting away from brawlers the further into it we get.

Bruener

01-15-2012, 01:11 AM

Are you telling me that that encounter for some unimaginable reason is better to use a SK to MT instead of a Guard or Brawler? Or did you happen to use your SK because you were using your other tanks elsewhere because of the tools that they had that were superior to get the job done?I will love to see this mob.....lol.

Novusod

01-15-2012, 01:56 AM

We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.

Gungo

01-15-2012, 03:26 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.</blockquote>Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.

Novusod

01-15-2012, 04:01 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.</blockquote>Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.</blockquote>Honestly I will say it again. I think there is a really good ballance between the tank classes right now. Brawlers and Guards and SKs are in good shape from what I have witnessed. Zerkers are the only class that needs a bit of a boost.

Controlor

01-15-2012, 01:42 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.</blockquote>Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.</blockquote>Honestly I will say it again. I think there is a really good ballance between the tank classes right now. Brawlers and Guards and SKs are in good shape from what I have witnessed. Zerkers are the only class that needs a bit of a boost.</blockquote>Paladins need some additonal love as well god sir. Not a whole lot, but still hurting. Need 1 more save on reasonable reuse (that doesnt mess with our power or some other bull mechanic) and 1 more snap, about it.

Bruener

01-15-2012, 04:59 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.</blockquote>Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.</blockquote>Honestly I will say it again. I think there is a really good ballance between the tank classes right now. Brawlers and Guards and SKs are in good shape from what I have witnessed. Zerkers are the only class that needs a bit of a boost.</blockquote>And honestly you guys are crack smokers. There is nothing that a SK can bring that a Brawler or Guard can't do unless it is controlling more than 6 adds for an extended duration. Taking one shots....Brawlers and Guards win out easily. Snap agro....Brawlers and Guards win out easily. Overall damage taken over time...Brawlers and Guards win. Since DoV launched that is all encounters have been about....except for Terrorwing so far as I have tanked...which has what I mentioned earlier. I will check out Tyrax soon and I will know exactly what you are talking about, or your perceived reason on why it was better. However if it comes down to spike damage prevention, snap agro, or damage taken there is no reason to use anything but a Brawler or Guard. Unless of course the Crusader or Zerk is just that much better of a player. (Take a HINT Gungo)Oh wait LOL. It must be one of those once in a great while encounters that is immune to melee damage or does something if hit will melee damage.Yep. Everything is balanced!!!!Please.EDIT: Hey I remember Sisters from SoH that required a Brawler to tank. Everything must have been balanced way back than so why all the buffs to Brawlers since than?

Netty

01-16-2012, 05:49 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.</blockquote>Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.</blockquote>Honestly I will say it again. I think there is a really good ballance between the tank classes right now. Brawlers and Guards and SKs are in good shape from what I have witnessed. Zerkers are the only class that needs a bit of a boost.</blockquote>Zerks dont need abit of a boost they need nearly a rewamp to fix everyhing that are just meh with them atm. You dont play a zerk so dont come here and make up stuff like you did with the buckler line.1.Raid focus need to be changed. 12 combat skills added to berserk is useless. Adding 5% block chance on a temp buff is useless. 5% MA on the raid wide as a focus is close to nothing (yes its raid wide but most scouts get caped out anyway better to use the focus to do something usefull). I can keep on with these the only one that are worth it for those is the extra triggers on rampage.2.Adrenaline as you said aswell need to be looked at again to make it usefull.3.Hit rates is just a joke on berserks.4.Ward of rage need to be made usefull again since the heal crit nerf. Its to small now 280 ward is close to nothing.5.Stone skin buff need to be turned into a stone skin buff or just for magical damage. Since most mobs dont use physical aoes/death touch.6. Agrro is a big problem and need to looked at.7. The over all inc damage is more than any fighter get and somehow it need to be fixed. Since zerks are forced to go as offensiv as poss losing shield never use Dstance and so on they lose alot.8. Dps when wearing a shield need to be higher for both warriors imo.9. open wound need to be made usefull. The change they did to it did nearly nothing to it.I can keep this list going.... But those things are not huge but its not small fixes as you claim it to be. Tanks are not balanced atm and even guards are bad off even tho they can tank well. If brawlers are to be most defensiv guards should do more dps than them. I dont want nerfs at all i want balance and the tank classes that are lacking behind to be fixed. I agree tho what most said zerk is the one that need most fixes, Then pally need something added. But the tanks are not balanced atm as you claim.

lostsandman

01-16-2012, 11:01 AM

I won't comment on damage mitigation as a SK since I have not done any hard modes as MT. However it is a real pain to be an SK OT who needs to snap agro. SK severely lack the tools for that. This issue was present even in SF but it wasn't a problem. SK did pretty good DPS and you can get snap agro by way of DPS. However in DoV, T1 DPS classes can easily do 4/5 times the DPS of fighters so you can't get snap agro by way of DPS anymore.This is a classic example of SOE making a mechanics change without fully thinking through all the implications.

Aull

01-16-2012, 11:09 AM

Nice write up Netty. I just want to say that I agree with ya. However I remember a time when brawlers where the least defensive and groups would bring a brawler in to make up for a lost rogue/scout spot with no issues what so ever.I don't ever see balance with six fighters all competing for one position especially for a raid. I hope that the devs will look again at all the fighters. All fighters have aa's and abilities that are outdated and do not have meaningful applications in todays game.Like Netty stated about the zerker the list can also keep going for each fighter.

Gungo

01-17-2012, 04:24 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Unless of course the Crusader or Zerk is just that much better of a player. (Take a HINT Gungo)</blockquote>Here is the HINT for you bruener DARKON has killed every encounter in game on his shadowknight(most of them he maintanked) just as I have killed every encounter on my bruiser(most of them I have maintanked). People are serving firsting content with a shadowknight maintank. Yesterday alone dark tanked soren and all of HM sullon on his shadowknight as we first pulled everything up to HM sullon. Thats all the facts you need to know to realize how much you suck at your class. So stop trying to jump on the zerker failboat because you as a player fail at playing a non overpowered class.

Gungo

01-17-2012, 04:31 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We tried with Guard and Bruiser MTs and failed. I am not going to give away the secret strat but SK is the way to go though.</blockquote>Dark tanks everything on his shadowknight as well. The problem isnt necessarily the shadowknight class its the person playing (in bruener case he cant see his own failure). Zerks are a different story but bruener is trying to jump on the zerker class failboat so he can get buffed and OP again.</blockquote>Honestly I will say it again. I think there is a really good ballance between the tank classes right now. Brawlers and Guards and SKs are in good shape from what I have witnessed. Zerkers are the only class that needs a bit of a boost.</blockquote>Zerks dont need abit of a boost they need nearly a rewamp to fix everyhing that are just meh with them atm. You dont play a zerk so dont come here and make up stuff like you did with the buckler line.1.Raid focus need to be changed. 12 combat skills added to berserk is useless. Adding 5% block chance on a temp buff is useless. 5% MA on the raid wide as a focus is close to nothing (yes its raid wide but most scouts get caped out anyway better to use the focus to do something usefull). I can keep on with these the only one that are worth it for those is the extra triggers on rampage.2.Adrenaline as you said aswell need to be looked at again to make it usefull.3.Hit rates is just a joke on berserks.4.Ward of rage need to be made usefull again since the heal crit nerf. Its to small now 280 ward is close to nothing.5.Stone skin buff need to be turned into a stone skin buff or just for magical damage. Since most mobs dont use physical aoes/death touch.6. Agrro is a big problem and need to looked at.7. The over all inc damage is more than any fighter get and somehow it need to be fixed. Since zerks are forced to go as offensiv as poss losing shield never use Dstance and so on they lose alot.8. Dps when wearing a shield need to be higher for both warriors imo.9. open wound need to be made usefull. The change they did to it did nearly nothing to it.I can keep this list going.... But those things are not huge but its not small fixes as you claim it to be. Tanks are not balanced atm and even guards are bad off even tho they can tank well. If brawlers are to be most defensiv guards should do more dps than them. I dont want nerfs at all i want balance and the tank classes that are lacking behind to be fixed. I agree tho what most said zerk is the one that need most fixes, Then pally need something added. But the tanks are not balanced atm as you claim.</blockquote>I think its pretty much given zerkers need serious help. Every other fighter in game is used to maintank content except the zerker. ( I wouldnt give guards more dps with a shield they are fine).Zerkers need major changes to survivability and paladins can use a reliable stoneskin(Not for crusaders just paladins as that would just make shadowknights a better defnesive tank then paladins). Those are the major pressing issues for the fighter class as a whole.

Bruener

01-17-2012, 05:25 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Unless of course the Crusader or Zerk is just that much better of a player. (Take a HINT Gungo)</blockquote>Here is the HINT for you bruener DARKON has killed every encounter in game on his shadowknight(most of them he maintanked) just as I have killed every encounter on my bruiser(most of them I have maintanked). People are serving firsting content with a shadowknight maintank. Yesterday alone dark tanked soren and all of HM sullon on his shadowknight as we first pulled everything up to HM sullon. Thats all the facts you need to know to realize how much you suck at your class. So stop trying to jump on the zerker failboat because you as a player fail at playing a non overpowered class.</blockquote>Here is the Fact Gungo none of you tools can name a single encounter in this game that would be a better choice to use either Crusader or Zerker to MT on versus a Brawler or Guard. The other fact is there is arguably only a couple encounters that you could name since DoV that is better to use either Crusader or Zerk on to OT instead of either Brawler or Guard.The fact is every Fighter could tank every mob in TSO as well. So I guess everything was balanced than and we should revert back to that time period.The fact is there is extreme disparity especially in overall damage taken and spike damage prevention.I tanked HM EoW with a solo healer. With even 30k HPS she could not solo heal me on the boss named. Throw in our Bruiser and 7k HPS she was easily able to keep him up.That is just in a heroic zone. I could give you an example of every single encounter in this game and why it is such an advantage to use one of the "3-have's" tanks versus the "3-have-nots". Its not just for MT'ing either. Its just about every encounter since DoV that has OT'ing as well.Its garbage and completely imbalanced. The fact that your guild chooses not to use you is a direct representation on your tanking abilities. Because realistically an average Brawler is an all around better choice over an exceptional Crusader or Zerk since DoV for any type of tanking.The fact you even made their raid Roster is a testament of how much ahead Brawlers are over other Fighters.

Gungo

01-17-2012, 06:13 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tanked HM EoW with a solo healer. With even 30k HPS she could not solo heal me on the boss named. Throw in our Bruiser and 7k HPS she was easily able to keep him up.The fact you even made their raid Roster is a testament of how much ahead Brawlers are over other Fighters.</blockquote>Dark cleared Hm EOW with a solo healer as maintank... Just sayingI know its amazing i made thier roster and yet they played me over MANY tanks since i been in guild including another several other brawlers. Sorry to burst you bubble sunshine but we have been looking for a 4th tank. Since i been in guild we have had (monks, bruisers, guards, shadowknights all try to be a sollid offtank for the guild and they NEED me to play my toon) I have no problems with my ability i know my strenghts and faults and I am fine with my ability and what i can do. I have never had an issue competeing with similar players of my class. You on the otherhand have continually posted about how much you fail doing things that other players in your class has continually shown they are capable of.

Bruener

01-17-2012, 06:55 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tanked HM EoW with a solo healer. With even 30k HPS she could not solo heal me on the boss named. Throw in our Bruiser and 7k HPS she was easily able to keep him up.The fact you even made their raid Roster is a testament of how much ahead Brawlers are over other Fighters.</blockquote>Dark cleared Hm EOW with a solo healer as maintank... Just sayingI know its amazing i made thier roster and yet they played me over MANY tanks since i been in guild including another several other brawlers. Sorry to burst you bubble sunshine but we have been looking for a 4th tank. Since i been in guild we have had (monks, bruisers, guards, shadowknights all try to be a sollid offtank for the guild and they NEED me to play my toon) I have no problems with my ability i know my strenghts and faults and I am fine with my ability and what i can do. I have never had an issue competeing with similar players of my class. You on the otherhand have continually posted about how much you fail doing things that other players in your class has continually shown they are capable of.</blockquote>Still waiting for that list of mobs since DoV that is better to use any tank besides a Brawler or Guard to MT on along with the list of encounters besides the 1 or 2 that have already been talked about that is better to use any other OT besides a Brawler or Guard on.Stop dodging the question.Waiting for you, Novusod, and any other Brawler/Guard that is arguing against changes to answer that simple question.

Novusod

01-17-2012, 10:32 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is every Fighter could tank every mob in TSO as well. So I guess everything was balanced than and we should revert back to that time period....Still waiting for that list of mobs since DoV that is better to use any tank besides a Brawler or Guard to MT on along with the list of encounters besides the 1 or 2 that have already been talked about that is better to use any other OT besides a Brawler or Guard on.Stop dodging the question.Waiting for you, Novusod, and any other Brawler/Guard that is arguing against changes to answer that simple question.</blockquote>This statement just shows what bias fool you are. Ballance is not about making every single encounter all about the SK like TSO was. Brawlers could not tank anything in TSO unless they had the defensive Avatar BP. The SK was super over powered back then everyone knows it.DoV content especially hardmode drunder is very ballanced. I have already given you two examples where using the SK prefered over other tanks. Mystikus Terrorwing the best combo is guard MT with SK OT. Tyrax Terrolus one mob with no adds and the SK is clearly the best MT for it. Asking for more than these to be custom tailored to the strengths of the SK is just being a PIG.

Bruener

01-17-2012, 10:54 PM

EDIT: Not worth continually arguing with the "Have" tanks especially when what I say is confirmed as a known issue.

Darkonx

01-18-2012, 11:45 PM

I've been mentioned by several parties, several times in this thread(Darkonx). I have a fully geared Shadowknight, and a fully geared Monk. Fighters are so ridiculously imbalanced that it makes me sick.Shadowknights survivability is absolute trash when compared to a brawler or a guardian. Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.I started to list abilities and try to compare but the truth is I can't. Fighter balance is so beyond broken right now I had to roll a monk if I wanted to stay the guilds maintank without crippling my raids progression. The skillgap between players is eclipsed SO much by class balance that it's absolutely unreal how the game has anything but brawlers and guardians still playing fighters.Xelgad please for the love of god fix fighter balance.Being able to crit heals of a numeric value (lifetaps/paladin heals/sk's reactive/paladins ward) would also help.I'd say change those two things, in combat BL and crits on numeric heals, and then see how class balance looks. Right now it's pretty grim.

Novusod

01-19-2012, 03:58 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>EDIT: Not worth continually arguing with the "Have" tanks especially when what I say is confirmed as a known issue.</blockquote>This troll thread never should have been made in the first place. Just direct your /feedback to Xelgad he will know what to do with it.

Netty

01-19-2012, 04:47 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>EDIT: Not worth continually arguing with the "Have" tanks especially when what I say is confirmed as a known issue.</blockquote>This troll thread never should have been made in the first place. Just direct your /feedback to Xelgad he will know what to do with it.</blockquote>I will take it slow this time and maybe then you will understand abit more. Ppl have sent feedback ppl have sent PM:s ppl have made threads you name it. But nothing happens. Is that so hard to understand? Im not sure HOW many time things have gotten ignored.

Novusod

01-19-2012, 05:33 AM

Poor Netty. How little do you know that you can't see the forests for the trees. The arguements you are putting up here are not being ignored. They are being rejected. If your PMs and /feedback are written anything like the whiny hyperbole filled threads on this forum it is going to be rejected. This agruement that everything is broken and the ballance is the worst ever will completely discredit everything you say. You are spouting nonsense and it is not going to be taken seriously.

Netty

01-19-2012, 05:43 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Poor Netty. How little do you know that you can't see the forests for the trees. The arguements you are putting up here are not being ignored. They are being rejected. If your PMs and /feedback are written anything like the whiny hyperbole filled threads on this forum it is going to be rejected. This agruement that everything is broken and the ballance is the worst ever will completely discredit everything you say. You are spouting nonsense and it is not going to be taken seriously.</blockquote>And what do you know about how the PM:s did look? Nothing. And you proven here how much you know about anything. Everything is broken and unbalanced as proven to you a number of times. Just roll a zerk and try and raid with it and tank the same things as you do on your bruiser then come back and tell me again how balanced things are. This is no where near nonsense and if you did come out and play something els you would see that.I never wanted brawlers nerfed but well now i do just since i know it will strike you hard if they do. So i guess i will start working to that now.

Bruener

01-19-2012, 12:30 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Poor Netty. How little do you know that you can't see the forests for the trees. The arguements you are putting up here are not being ignored. They are being rejected. If your PMs and /feedback are written anything like the whiny hyperbole filled threads on this forum it is going to be rejected. This agruement that everything is broken and the ballance is the worst ever will completely discredit everything you say. You are spouting nonsense and it is not going to be taken seriously.</blockquote>And what do you know about how the PM:s did look? Nothing. And you proven here how much you know about anything. Everything is broken and unbalanced as proven to you a number of times. Just roll a zerk and try and raid with it and tank the same things as you do on your bruiser then come back and tell me again how balanced things are. This is no where near nonsense and if you did come out and play something els you would see that.I never wanted brawlers nerfed but well now i do just since i know it will strike you hard if they do. So i guess i will start working to that now.</blockquote>As I stated. From the horses mouth it is a known issue. These brawlers can keep pretending all they want but it is a fact and it is known by the devs how unbalanced things are right now.Unfortunately it doesn't mean fixes are coming right away probably due to short staffing or something else unrelated to balance.This of course just makes things even worse since everybody KNOWS the problems however we still keep plugging along through it.BTW nice write up Dark. My question is Gungo going to keep running his mouth now? Obviously he was talking out the other end.

LygerT

01-20-2012, 12:10 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The best ever. That is a good one. You mean if half the Fighters completely own the end game tanking realm while the other half are fillers for when you can't find a Brawler or Guardian than yeah...that is just so balanced.Really the only reason these posts seem to upset you so much is because you know that the nerf bat is going to be swinging your way. It is long long overdue and the longer it takes the harder it usually falls.Heroic is balanced. End game is just aweful.</blockquote>you should know of such things, you were on that side of the fence not long ago. but the nerf bat never did arrive, instead they bumped up the other classes and didn't bump up yours nearly so much the next round.(be nice please)

Bruener

01-20-2012, 12:49 PM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The best ever. That is a good one. You mean if half the Fighters completely own the end game tanking realm while the other half are fillers for when you can't find a Brawler or Guardian than yeah...that is just so balanced.Really the only reason these posts seem to upset you so much is because you know that the nerf bat is going to be swinging your way. It is long long overdue and the longer it takes the harder it usually falls.Heroic is balanced. End game is just aweful.</blockquote>you should know of such things, you were on that side of the fence not long ago. but the nerf bat never did arrive, instead they bumped up the other classes and didn't bump up yours nearly so much the next round.(removed)</blockquote>Actually since you have such a short memory Reflect was destroyed in DoV beta. Not only that all the content suddenly required tools that Crusaders and Zerks didn't and don't have with continually 1 shot AEs that can be timed for a save with the addition of the casting bar at the end of SF. They also nerfed mitigation, but unlike Brawlers the mitigation wasn't added to Plate tanks. Content also pushed the strike through mechanic on everything, and it still is which lowers non-Brawlers avoidance significantly. Meanwhile the addition of even more Block chance for all Fighters spread the gap even more on avoidance since Brawler block chance has a much lower cap so they get more per Block chance. Also we can talk about using the MA mechanic more on mobs which completely favors higher avoidance tanks along with anything that procs from mobs.Oh than on top of it they give junk for AAs, itemization neutered tank DPS in relation to where it was in SF, and they gave better AAs to Brawlers specifically to give them even more tools to handle the mechanics of DoV along with making sure they don't take any more damage per hit.So what I see is a nerf to survivability specifically with making so Reflect can't be used as often and through the new mechanics introduced in DoV that some tanks had the tools to handle while others didn't. I see a nerf to DPS in relation to raid DPS which in turn is a nerf to agro which for the Fighters that rely on DPS more than some was a direct nerf.You can look at it anyway you want but the fact is through direct nerfs and through big mechanic changes and itemization changes there was a whole lot of nerfing going on which has completely unbalanced Fighters in end game content.(removed)

LygerT

01-20-2012, 09:55 PM

you whine like you were bad off during that period, perhaps you were out there with that other guy wearing cloth and leather and moaning about survivability.yeah, we all know it never happened, classes never get bumped up for expansions at a time nor do people admit that there is an overpowering class curve in this game...reroll and suck it up, there is no amount of complaining that is going to change how it is.

SOE-MOD-07

01-20-2012, 10:44 PM

Let's remember to respect other players opinions. Thanks!

Gungo

01-21-2012, 01:33 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.</blockquote>Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.

Novusod

01-21-2012, 02:11 AM

Shadowknights aren't broken at all. This whole thread is a farce. I am watching an SK MT the Statue of Zek hardmode right as I type this.

Bruener

01-21-2012, 11:27 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights aren't broken at all. This whole thread is a farce. I am watching an SK MT the Statue of Zek hardmode right as I type this.</blockquote>Awesome that Statue has been nerfed down extreme amounts and your SK is actually geared past that tier of content!!!! All must be balanced.Nobody said they couldn't. Just like Brawlers could tank mobs in TSO. The difference is in how much easier it is for them and even more importantly how much easier it is for those supporting them compared to others.Ran EoW HM again with a solo healer. 55k HPS couldn't keep me up on the second named. 50% avoidance. Step in Brawler that needs about 7k HPS to do the same job easily.Tanking raid mobs the damage taken difference is HUGE. More importanly with how mechanics are the spike damage prevention tools are so key and the gap in who has what is the kicker.There is a difference between broken and unbalanced. In fact I haven't known a class in this game EVER that is "broken". Brawlers tanked Avatars in TSO....and yet it was clear they needed some tweaks. We had a Guard MT all of TSO and SF....and yet it was clear they needed some tweaks. It is no different with todays game where Fighters in end game raiding are definitely not balanced.

Bruener

01-21-2012, 11:35 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.</blockquote>Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.</blockquote>Again, who said couldn't? Just like Dark pointed out the difference in how much easier it is on a Brawler though is so huge that why would you not use a Brawler? We have 2 Brawlers on the roster since DoV simply because of that reason. Plug in a non-Brawler/Guard tank and all you are doing is creating more work for the support.The only reason Dark doesn't use his Monk full time is because he likes his SK. It is his class and he has played it a long time. He would scrap his Monk in a heart beat if he wasn't needed for progression.Nothing is broken, its just all completely imbalanced.If any of you guys really think differently just go ahead and have a conversation with Dark about the difference on his SK versus his Monk. Basically....the Monk=God.

Gungo

01-21-2012, 06:29 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.</blockquote>Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.</blockquote>Again, who said couldn't? Just like Dark pointed out the difference in how much easier it is on a Brawler though is so huge that why would you not use a Brawler? We have 2 Brawlers on the roster since DoV simply because of that reason. Plug in a non-Brawler/Guard tank and all you are doing is creating more work for the support.The only reason Dark doesn't use his Monk full time is because he likes his SK. It is his class and he has played it a long time. He would scrap his Monk in a heart beat if he wasn't needed for progression.Nothing is broken, its just all completely imbalanced.If any of you guys really think differently just go ahead and have a conversation with Dark about the difference on his SK versus his Monk. Basically....the Monk=God.</blockquote>Actually you have said in the past you couldnt tank several named and you had to have a brawler tank it to kill it. My point is So far everything in this game is killable with a shadowknight. They are NOT broken. The only point where shadowknights become slightly less ideal is certain high end raid npcs. Most of the issues with a shadowknight are fixed with the mythical cloak a 3 min base recast 3 positional MAssive encounter hate proc and 40% damage reduction that is the highest damage reduction in game for 8 secs. The only issue that i can see being fixed is allowing bloodletter castable in combat. Yes its silly that its on a mythical cloak but the only disparity for fighters exist in high end raiding anyway.

Darkonx

01-23-2012, 04:27 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bloodletter being recastable in combat, in it's current form, would HELP, but even that wouldn't be enough. Currently grouped with an inquisitor it has a two minute reuse, and two triggers. That means that after those are gone, it's down for two minutes. Brawlers get a THREE trigger one, with a lesser reuse.</blockquote>Bloodletter is a 3 min recast. Min recast is 1.5 min Brawlers tenacity is a 5 min recast Min recast 2.5 minThere is no AA that reduces the recast specifically of tenacity.Reuse is not lesser unless the toon has significant emphasis placed on reuse. As I said before with you bloodletter should be castable in combat.But shadowknights are not broken as bruener claims. You have proved it yourself by tanking every named on your shadowknight in sullon's Hm. Many of which bruener claims he can not tank.</blockquote>Again, who said couldn't? Just like Dark pointed out the difference in how much easier it is on a Brawler though is so huge that why would you not use a Brawler? We have 2 Brawlers on the roster since DoV simply because of that reason. Plug in a non-Brawler/Guard tank and all you are doing is creating more work for the support.The only reason Dark doesn't use his Monk full time is because he likes his SK. It is his class and he has played it a long time. He would scrap his Monk in a heart beat if he wasn't needed for progression.Nothing is broken, its just all completely imbalanced.If any of you guys really think differently just go ahead and have a conversation with Dark about the difference on his SK versus his Monk. Basically....the Monk=God.</blockquote>Classes aren't even remotely balanced. I've played both for every DOV raid mob that my guild has killed. I even two boxed them for the first HM named in Tallons.Shadowknights are neutered. We need to be able to recast bloodletter in combat, and we need to be able to crit devour vitae, and tap veins.Change those two things, then maybe SOME balance can start to be reinstated. We already take 5x (no exaggeration 7k vs 35k damage per second) doing zones like HM EOW. Just fix it already. It's dumb. It makes the game not fun.

lostsandman

01-23-2012, 07:16 AM

Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters. I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others. Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.

Aull

01-23-2012, 02:15 PM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>Truth!!That is where this game has become so messed up. It seems that evey fighter issue is being catered to the end game raiding while the casual players (raid or non raiders) take the hit the hardest.I still stand by the idea that making all six fighters to be solely raid main tank material is what is hurting fighters in the other areas of play. It basically pigeon holes them all into one area of game play that as stated before only has room for two maybe three.Even priests can step out of their roles as healers and be a decent damage class. Even though damage isn't their true role they still have the option to do it. Heck look at the beastlord. They can either be very good damage or support by choice.I have never understood why all priest abilities damage or heal can still critical and that is acceptable yet for fighters (mainly the crusaders) having the ability to crit heal and crit damage is unacceptable! That to me is just plum tupid.Even though this game has aged there needs to be someone that understands how fighters operate and monitor them. This is a continual operation that does not stop and applies to all areas of game play. It suprises me that I see abilities/aa's on my zerker, bruiser, monk, and sk that were decent years ago yet in todays game their use is impractical.I hope that the fighter community will once again have some communication with an SOE associate that is willing to visit us.

Netty

01-23-2012, 08:28 PM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.

lostsandman

01-24-2012, 11:04 AM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.</blockquote>Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?

Netty

01-24-2012, 11:25 AM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.</blockquote>Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?</blockquote>Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.

Boli32

01-24-2012, 01:12 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.</blockquote>Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?</blockquote>Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.</blockquote>The last time I played the most of the EM content and pretty much *all* the instances could be tanked quite successfully by a hate bufffed scout... or even a hate buffed mage.Quite frankly the only thing which separated the fighters from other classes was snap agro (of which not all fighters had such an abundance of skills), To balance the fighters over such easy content is just rediculous as for most of it you don't even *need* a fighter. The only time you do is for when the incoming damage becomes too great that* The mob cannot face the raid so reliable methods of regaining agro is a must* The incoming damage is so great that you need methods of suriving it not avaialable to other classes.In short you need snaps and Immunities/Damage reduction buttons to click; and fighter balancing only really needs to happen at endgame down... the rest of the abilities/difference are just flavour.There are a few methods to balance this:1. Some tanks have more snaps than others but less immunities meaning a combination of a snap tank and a immunity tank is ideal. <--- this can fail drastically if the scripting and/or AoE timers line up badly leading to a combination of luck and/or using the snap based tanks and more defensive healers2. All tanks have the same number of immunities and snaps so they could theortically perform MT and OT duties without issues. <-- could be boring still doesn't solve only needing 1 fighter 3. Some tanks have abilities taliored towards suriviving and holding multiple mobs others single target based <--- this method has been tried and failed4. Some tanks have a slight defensive edge and trade significant DPS for increased hate. Other tanks defensive skills are less effective but gain a significant DPS and buffing advantage <---- this method only works if fighter DPS in general was significant and the defensive abilities of the more offensive tanks cannot be overcome by the rest of the raid (tried and failed in TSO)And then there is #5... my personal favourite:5. THREE tanks must all work together to join into the "main tank"- One tank will act as a huge hate siphon generating silly amounts of hate and doing a lot of DPS.- One tank would be able to deal in snaps; memwipes and blurs whilst doing damage- One tank will act as the defensive and throw up immunities at the right time etcThe defensive tank recieves the hate from the hate tank allowing them to ignore their own personal DPS.The snap tanks rescues all rescue the mob ONTO the main tankThe hate tank only cares about one thing... hate and DPS which are transfered to the main tankSo three tanks in tandem would work together to overcome something which they could not alone... as long as all the easy/instance content was tankable by *all* tanks the additional immunity/hate/snaps given to a few tanks would not be needed until the hardmode content starts.e.g. A Guardian tanks using his supeirior stoneskins receiving huge amounts of threats from a shadowknight in the mage group and a Monk assists in snapping back the mob as it memwipes consistantly.or A Paladin holds the line using his defensive healing power to good use whilst the Zerker carves into the mobs generating massive amounts of hate and the bruiser darts around snaping back stray mobs.3 happy fighters in the raid without the need for needless scripting of adds, charms, co-operative strikes etc which force multiple fighters.

lostsandman

01-24-2012, 03:11 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.</blockquote>Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?</blockquote>Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.</blockquote>Tanking is not about just taking the damage from the mob... All tanks can take the damage dished out "easy mode" mobs provided they have the right group setup. However when it comes to snap agro not all takes are equal. SKs lack the tool in this regards. Snap agro was not problem last expansion since you can very easily get agro by DPSing your way out. That's not an option now since a good t1 dps class can easily do 5 or 6 times the DPS of a good fighter. Due to the DPS change fighters without snap agro tools are at a huge disadvantage. I am not saying fighters need to do T1 DPS or even go back to the way things were last expansion. Just saying that you need balance in all regards and that means getting help with snap agro in some way.

Novusod

01-25-2012, 09:06 AM

If anything SKs and even Zerkers out perform brawlers in EZmode content. I wrote about this in the other thread. Here is how they ballance a free 2 play game.Crash course on how Free 2 Play tank balance works:- For players with silver/bronze subscription SK/Pally/Zerker is the best tank- Brawlers are bad when we're talking about a person that's bronze with treasured and adepts and no AA- Brawlers = high end raid tank- SK/Pally/Zerker = N o o b tank- Brawlers and SK/Pally = Station Cash paid class- As $ ballance SK/Pally brings in more money than brawlers- Zerker = FREE tank so this class bring in $0- Thus we have ballance even if the raiders whine about itI have some old links from Eq2X forums where the casuals are all calling the SK overpowered.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?start=8&topic_id=9753" target="_blank">Link</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=2884" target="_blank">Link</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=4433" target="_blank">Link</a>Isn't free to play wonderful? I give it two thumbs up.

Netty

01-25-2012, 10:16 AM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone above mentioned that fighter imbalance only matters when you are doing "hard mode" encounters.I would like to add that fighter balance is far more important in the "casual" raiding scene regardless of if you are doing "easy mode" or "hard mode". In the "casual" raid scene you don't get the "best" group or raid setup, so if one fighter can do their job easily without relying on others then they are preferred over the others.Unlike other classes, more than 2 fighters is a waste of space in a raid. So balance is important at ALL level of raiding and fixes need to come for all levels and ALL fighters.</blockquote>That has to be one of the most stupid things i have ever heard... Sorry. All fighters can tank EM well. It doesent matter what tank class you take. And if they balance the tanks in end game it will be even more balanced for EM aswell. I mean say you are playing a class that are growsly OP but you dont put out the same dps as a assassin... Should they then balance the class vs how you play? Wouldent that mean making the class even more OP? It would.We run with 3 fighters all the time and since you need more than 2 for so many fights i cant see how its a waste.I Dont think all 6 should be soilid raid MT. It should be easier on some that should take abit less damage as it is now but you should be able too tank all with any tank class. The gap is abit to wide atm. And some tanks are far behind on alot of stuff.</blockquote>Unline you, I am not trying to be rude but I don't understand your post. Are you saying that if fighters are balanced for "hard mode" raiding, then by definition they are alos balanced for all level of playing? In other words balance is only important for "hard mode" raiding?</blockquote>Im not trying to be rude. All tanks can atm tank all heroics and most EM. If all tanks was balanced in HM raids they would be even more balanced for EM. Sure some tanks solo better with heals and so on but you can still do it. And the only tank class that do lack abit in soloing is guardian. So yes Hard mode raiding is whats importent here. Since then all tanks could tank everthing some abit easier on some stuff but still would be able to do it.</blockquote>Tanking is not about just taking the damage from the mob...All tanks can take the damage dished out "easy mode" mobs provided they have the right group setup. However when it comes to snap agro not all takes are equal. SKs lack the tool in this regards.Snap agro was not problem last expansion since you can very easily get agro by DPSing your way out. That's not an option now since a good t1 dps class can easily do 5 or 6 times the DPS of a good fighter. Due to the DPS change fighters without snap agro tools are at a huge disadvantage.I am not saying fighters need to do T1 DPS or even go back to the way things were last expansion. Just saying that you need balance in all regards and that means getting help with snap agro in some way.</blockquote>And who said that i am only talking about fixing the damage taking side of it? Everything need to be look at for some classes in a way or two.

Netty

01-25-2012, 10:22 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>If anything SKs and even Zerkers out perform brawlers in EZmode content. I wrote about this in the other thread. Here is how they ballance a free 2 play game.Crash course on how Free 2 Play tank balance works:- For players with silver/bronze subscription SK/Pally/Zerker is the best tank- Brawlers are bad when we're talking about a person that's bronze with treasured and adepts and no AA- Brawlers = high end raid tank- SK/Pally/Zerker = N o o b tank- Brawlers and SK/Pally = Station Cash paid class- As $ ballance SK/Pally brings in more money than brawlers- Zerker = FREE tank so this class bring in $0- Thus we have ballance even if the raiders whine about itI have some old links from Eq2X forums where the casuals are all calling the SK overpowered.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?start=8&topic_id=9753" target="_blank">Link</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=2884" target="_blank">Link</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=4433" target="_blank">Link</a>Isn't free to play wonderful? I give it two thumbs up.</blockquote>Im getting tiered of you. Just do as i asked roll a zerk and raid the same stuff you raid with a brawler than say how balance they are and how it takes no skill and so on. I got news for you it takes less skill to play a brawler than a zerk since both the dps out put is higher and the inc damage ALOT lower. I hope you are happy when you creat this much hate for your class since yeah everything you do is being reflected to your class. You have proven time after time that you have no idea on what you are talking about. So isent it time for you to stop now? You are just creating more and more brawler hate by acting like you do. I never disliked brawler untill now and im sure there are more ppl reading your BS that feel the same way now.

Darkonx

01-25-2012, 04:47 PM

Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.

Gungo

01-26-2012, 04:02 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.

Bruener

01-26-2012, 12:33 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.</blockquote>Gungo you need to just stop posting. It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue. The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day. There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control. The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change. It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes. It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it. The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical. It is a long recast and short duration.That is a start. It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.Those are tweaks that would make a big difference. That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content. Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.

Netty

01-26-2012, 01:15 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.</blockquote>Gungo you need to just stop posting. It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue. The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day. There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control. The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change. It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes. It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it. The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical. It is a long recast and short duration.That is a start. It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.Those are tweaks that would make a big difference. That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content. Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.</blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.

Bruener

01-26-2012, 01:35 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.</blockquote>Gungo you need to just stop posting. It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue. The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day. There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control. The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change. It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes. It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it. The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical. It is a long recast and short duration.That is a start. It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.Those are tweaks that would make a big difference. That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content. Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.</blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>You do realize that Brawlers and Guards already have more tools than those easily to handle the spikes? Brawlers avoidance is far superior to other tanks as well and in a game of mechanics that base MAs/Flurries/Procs based on being hit they take significantly less damage not to mention having an ability that does 30% damage reduction if they are hit for the next 3 seconds that can go off every 10 seconds? Avoidance saves really work on Brawlers unlike other tanks simply because they are strike through immune. So a Tsunami is literally a complete immunity to ALL auto attack at that time that can be up something like 1/4 of the time or something? Meanwhile DA for Crusaders only absorbs small hits for less time and on a 5 min recast?I really don't think people realize how large the gap really is. Chatting with Dark, you know Gungo's favorite example, it is hilarious what he says about his Monk. He doesn't even understand how people even die playing a Monk. Tsunami, DR buffs, etc that are up all the time it is quite amazing.Those are just ideas for SKs. Zerkers obviously need a similar look at along with Paladins. Tanks need to be balanced and what I put in is not even as much as what Brawlers can do at the end of the day. Start taking off some of those things on the list than start nerfing the other classes to be in line. I was an advocate for them fixing the disparity by doing both. Get rid of strike through immunity. The strike through mechanic itself could be a useful mechanic...making 2 of the Fighters immune to it was just a bonehead mistake. Fix the mitigation difference. Right now Brawlers take no more damage at all from physical hits and because of the tools they have they take less non-melee damage.Fix some other areas and than yeah I could see where the above suggestions would be too much. Afraid to "nerf" what needs to be changed and the list above simply brings SKs onto the same playing field.Do me a favor Netty. Shoot Crushbone.Darkonx a tell sometime asking him the difference between his SK and the Monk and how huge the gap is. There is a reason he can 2 box tank on Generals cause the Monk is cake.EDIT: To add that it is getting real old for content to be adjusted a few months later to help non-Brawlers do their job. If contenct can't be released because of the mechanics where it isn't balanced to tank it shows an obvious break down in Tank balance.

Novusod

01-26-2012, 01:38 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>It it is what both of you wanted all along, to Make SK or Zerkers super Overpowered again. Well that is never going to happen. Everyone sees right through you. That is why I am going to keep putting up the good fight and knocking down your arguements. All the ideas in this thread have been totally ridiculous. SK abilities don't really need to touched at all and Zerker need minor boosts at best.To answer your question from before, I do have a 90/300aa zerker alt. From what I have seen this class doesn't need much help. I have no doubt I could be successful Zerker tank if I wanted to. It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

Bruener

01-26-2012, 01:43 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>It it is what both of you wanted all along, to Make SK or Zerkers super Overpowered again. Well that is never going to happen. Everyone sees right through you. That is why I am going to keep putting up the good fight and knocking down your arguements. All the ideas in this thread have been totally ridiculous. SK abilities don't really need to touched at all and Zerker need minor boosts at best.To answer your question from before, I do have a 90/300aa zerker alt. From what I have seen this class doesn't need much help. I have no doubt I could be successful Zerker tank if I wanted to. It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.</blockquote>You really need to stop posting to. Your idea of balance is that F2P junk that you posted. Obviously there is a huge disconnect when you try and claim Fighters are balanced in end game, but than you post what you see as the real reason things are the way they are and that points out the obvious of it not being balanced....but you think that is ok because it is an effect of F2P.Posting what you did you completely discredited any argument you have because it admits that it isn't balanced at end game....you just feel it is alright because of how F2P works.

Novusod

01-26-2012, 02:07 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>You really need to stop posting to. Your idea of balance is that F2P junk that you posted. Obviously there is a huge disconnect when you try and claim Fighters are balanced in end game, but than you post what you see as the real reason things are the way they are and that points out the obvious of it not being balanced....but you think that is ok because it is an effect of F2P.Posting what you did you completely discredited any argument you have because it admits that it isn't balanced at end game....you just feel it is alright because of how F2P works.</blockquote>Yeah about that end game. Like they are really going to break the rest of the game's ballance to satisfy the jockeying for MT/OT in a few very top guilds. Make no mistake your ideas would break the game. I see SK tank plenty of stuff anyway so they don't need any changes despite all your whining. Would you or Darkonx change raid roles if SKs got buffs? No, Nothing would change because you guys are already the MT of your respective guilds. People like you just want to can the brawler position and tank everything and that is just not reasonable. You Sir are the one who needs to stop posting.

Netty

01-26-2012, 02:37 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>It it is what both of you wanted all along, to Make SK or Zerkers super Overpowered again. Well that is never going to happen. Everyone sees right through you. That is why I am going to keep putting up the good fight and knocking down your arguements. All the ideas in this thread have been totally ridiculous. SK abilities don't really need to touched at all and Zerker need minor boosts at best.To answer your question from before, I do have a 90/300aa zerker alt. From what I have seen this class doesn't need much help. I have no doubt I could be successful Zerker tank if I wanted to. It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.</blockquote>What of the things i have posted would be OP or even close to the defens of a brawlers? I never asked for being OP i asked for balance. Zerks and sk should not be as defensiv as brawlers or guards i never said that. You clearly have never raided with a zerk at all befor.... You are if not the only one i have seen this expack that claim that the class is fine and dont need any help. Just keep being blind im done with you. Everyone even brawlers know how broken the zerk class is atm everyone - you that think everything is so good and fine.

Netty

01-26-2012, 02:52 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.</blockquote>Gungo you need to just stop posting. It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue. The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day. There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control. The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change. It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes. It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it. The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical. It is a long recast and short duration.That is a start. It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.Those are tweaks that would make a big difference. That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content. Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.</blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>You do realize that Brawlers and Guards already have more tools than those easily to handle the spikes? Brawlers avoidance is far superior to other tanks as well and in a game of mechanics that base MAs/Flurries/Procs based on being hit they take significantly less damage not to mention having an ability that does 30% damage reduction if they are hit for the next 3 seconds that can go off every 10 seconds? Avoidance saves really work on Brawlers unlike other tanks simply because they are strike through immune. So a Tsunami is literally a complete immunity to ALL auto attack at that time that can be up something like 1/4 of the time or something? Meanwhile DA for Crusaders only absorbs small hits for less time and on a 5 min recast?I really don't think people realize how large the gap really is. Chatting with Dark, you know Gungo's favorite example, it is hilarious what he says about his Monk. He doesn't even understand how people even die playing a Monk. Tsunami, DR buffs, etc that are up all the time it is quite amazing.Those are just ideas for SKs. Zerkers obviously need a similar look at along with Paladins. Tanks need to be balanced and what I put in is not even as much as what Brawlers can do at the end of the day. Start taking off some of those things on the list than start nerfing the other classes to be in line. I was an advocate for them fixing the disparity by doing both. Get rid of strike through immunity. The strike through mechanic itself could be a useful mechanic...making 2 of the Fighters immune to it was just a bonehead mistake. Fix the mitigation difference. Right now Brawlers take no more damage at all from physical hits and because of the tools they have they take less non-melee damage.Fix some other areas and than yeah I could see where the above suggestions would be too much. Afraid to "nerf" what needs to be changed and the list above simply brings SKs onto the same playing field.Do me a favor Netty. Shoot Crushbone.Darkonx a tell sometime asking him the difference between his SK and the Monk and how huge the gap is. There is a reason he can 2 box tank on Generals cause the Monk is cake.EDIT: To add that it is getting real old for content to be adjusted a few months later to help non-Brawlers do their job. If contenct can't be released because of the mechanics where it isn't balanced to tank it shows an obvious break down in Tank balance.</blockquote>I know what tools brawler have over the others since i do play one right now. Been playing a guard since eof(the time when i betrayed my zerk since they just dident cut it as a raid tank) started playing the zerk again for SF. Atm im playing a monk since our monk went causal. So yes i know what tools they have. How ever i still dont think zerks or sk:s should have the same strength in taking hits. They just need a few fixes 2 of them that dark listed another snap aggro tool and i think SK:s are on good grounds. I do agree with physical stone skins need to be all around stone skin aswell since its on a long recast and its half worthless since kinda much nothing hard hitting is from a physical attack.Zerks on the other hand have the lowest health And are forced to DW to hold good aggro.Hit rates are sh*t they got no temp avoidance buff as SK and pally have.Physical stone skin once again nearly nothing it works on...Alot weaker mit buffs than the guardian.Adrenaline that heals for 50% of the hit is just junk... And the fact that the power drain is so huge on it and with all the powerdrain mobs in this expack its useless.2 death saves. One that are worth atleast something. Not to long recast and dont heal you up 100% but still with the changes they did its nice... UW on the other hand is useless... close to 10min recast and if you are unlucky to not be berserk you will die anyway...A temp buff that heals for 10% of max health with every hit. This one was nice when it did crit. Now its just junk since mobs hits to hard and the zerks Health is a joke...Weakest CA:s of all tanks...Wearing a shield as a zerk is junk aswell since you lose half your dps and Dstance just makes it worse.I dont want them to make zerks as good as the 3 other tanks but they should be able to preform better.

Gungo

01-26-2012, 04:36 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.</blockquote>Gungo you need to just stop posting. It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue. The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day. There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control. The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change. It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes. It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it. The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical. It is a long recast and short duration.That is a start. It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.Those are tweaks that would make a big difference. That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content. Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.</blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>BINGORegardless of what BS bruener trys to spin. That is all I have been saying. He obviously wants TSO levels of shadowknights. To be clear dark didnt say ALL lifetaps he specifically said only vitae and tap veins should crit. If you count the saves a shadowknight has access to with that myth cloak and bloodletter castable in combat it is MORE save temps then a bruiser,a class he already claims is OP. But its bruener he always wants MORE and needs to play the most OP class.

Darkonx

01-26-2012, 05:40 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting extremely tired of being told my class is balanced, or that I should be happy being unable to tank things.Fix Shadowknights in 2012, since it certainly didn't happen in 2011.</blockquote>Shadowknights need some minor changes, but they are not broken. What mob have you been unable to tank so far? Because we havent found an npc yet your shadowknight hasnt maintanked yet.Blood letter recastable in combat I agree.Criticals on vitae and tap veins, why not i dont think it will do much.A new myth cloak effect with 40% damage reduction and an AOE rescue clicky with a 3 min base recast. More then enough to make shadowknights balanced.</blockquote>Gungo you need to just stop posting. It has already been shown that you really don't have a clue. The individual that you try to base all your arguments on and try and "quote" how you want has come out and said it plan as day. There is a HUGE gap in survivability, spike damage prevention, and snap agro control. The 3 most important parts to being a tank since agro generation is now more in the hands of the transfers and buffers around you.Yes, Bloodletter needs to be castable In-combat (like I said in DoV beta)Yes, lifetaps need to heal crit since like you said the gain is not much, and yet right now the Lifetaps are nothing.Yes, the new myth cloak is nice but that is not a balancer and since you seem to think that it takes an ability like this (something I have been saying for a long time) than that ability needs to be added to the SKs arsenal now not on a cloak that nobody will see.Also, the Epic buff for SKs is junk and needs a serious change. It is by far the worst out of Fighters and arguably the worst out of all classes. It hardly generates any agro at all and unlike other Fighters doesn't have a survivability benefit to it. The clicky should be a 24 hate position jump and should be for ALL damage not just physical. It is a long recast and short duration.That is a start. It fixes stuff that doesn't work as intended and updates abilities that have been surpassed by similar abilities of other Fighters.Those are tweaks that would make a big difference. That would balance against Brawlers and Guards in content. Still a gap in survivability, but a liveable gap that is made up for in other areas.</blockquote>To be honest just those things you listed there if all of them was to happen SK would be the end of all tank. the cloak effect sure not many will see it but amen to that.... combine that with all the other tools you have plus those you listed and SK:s would be far more OP than brawlers even been.</blockquote>BINGORegardless of what BS bruener trys to spin. That is all I have been saying. He obviously wants TSO levels of shadowknights. To be clear dark didnt say ALL lifetaps he specifically said only vitae and tap veins should crit. If you count the saves a shadowknight has access to with that myth cloak and bloodletter castable in combat it is as much as a bruiser. But its bruener he always wants MORE.</blockquote>It's not true though. At least what Netty posted. In combat BL and critical vitae/tap veins wouldn't make us imbalanced. It'd put us CLOSER, yet still, imo, behind brawlers.Two trigger vs three trigger DI, recast starting upon termination rather than cast, and a longer downtime from it's expiration until it's ability to come back up.Furor vs Tsunami obviously Tsunami wins, as it makes the caster immune to strikethrough, and has HALF of the recast, as well as a 33% longer duration.Legionaire's Conviction vs 25% damage reduction, the 25% damage reduction wins because it grants reduction of physical as well as magical, in addition to the 25% damage reduction having a third of the recast.Respite vs Superior Guard, Superior Guard dominates it, half of the recast G_G.Blood Siphon vs Magic Ward, monk ability is much much more useful vs magical and there's no detriment to casting it, but can't be used to absorb physical, and a much lower recast. Magic Ward wins out.Then we go on to saves that the monk has, and we're out of ones to compare to, because that's all Shadowknights get.Bob and Weave, a second version of Tsunami, which the Shadowknights have nothing to compare to, on half the recast of furor.Inner Calm, two hit physical stoneskin on a fairly low recast (about a minute, the same as the other monk abilities, and half of the sk abilities).Group 15% damage reduction on a 40s recast, whose recast starts upon cast, so it's up half of the time.Innate avoidance that trumps ours, by half again more.Self-complete heal that grants 15% additional block on the target they cast it on, for fifteen seconds. Pretty sweet but it's decent cast time makes it less useful as a save, but it just increases their passive surivability even more.In reality there can be no direct comparison. Brawlers have better abilities, that come up faster, in addition to having better passive survivability.P.S. I didn't bother including SK lifetaps, as they are so miniscule in the current meta game that they don't matter. I might do .2-.4% of my own heals, ZW. It's quite ridiculous. A 2k lifetap when I have 80k hp and the mobs are trucking me for 30k, just doesn't matter.

Gungo

01-26-2012, 06:52 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I know what tools brawler have over the others since i do play one right now. Been playing a guard since eof(the time when i betrayed my zerk since they just dident cut it as a raid tank) started playing the zerk again for SF. Atm im playing a monk since our monk went causal. So yes i know what tools they have. How ever i still dont think zerks or sk:s should have the same strength in taking hits. They just need a few fixes 2 of them that dark listed another snap aggro tool and i think SK:s are on good grounds. I do agree with physical stone skins need to be all around stone skin aswell since its on a long recast and its half worthless since kinda much nothing hard hitting is from a physical attack.Zerks on the other hand have the lowest health And are forced to DW to hold good aggro.Hit rates are sh*t they got no temp avoidance buff as SK and pally have.Physical stone skin once again nearly nothing it works on...Alot weaker mit buffs than the guardian.Adrenaline that heals for 50% of the hit is just junk... And the fact that the power drain is so huge on it and with all the powerdrain mobs in this expack its useless.2 death saves. One that are worth atleast something. Not to long recast and dont heal you up 100% but still with the changes they did its nice... UW on the other hand is useless... close to 10min recast and if you are unlucky to not be berserk you will die anyway...A temp buff that heals for 10% of max health with every hit. This one was nice when it did crit. Now its just junk since mobs hits to hard and the zerks Health is a joke...Weakest CA:s of all tanks...Wearing a shield as a zerk is junk aswell since you lose half your dps and Dstance just makes it worse.I dont want them to make zerks as good as the 3 other tanks but they should be able to preform better.</blockquote>I think everyone is on the same page zerkers are the worst off tank. Even novosod said they needed changes. Personally i havent played with a good zerker in a while and i have serious doubts they can tank endgame content like every other class is capable of doing. In fact there is not a single high end guild using a zerker to maintank any content. Whereas every other fighter IS maintanking DOV content.The class needs a complete overhaul including making thier defensive stance increase thier survivability significantly and much better sustained agro generation.

Gungo

01-26-2012, 07:15 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not true though. At least what Netty posted. In combat BL and critical vitae/tap veins wouldn't make us imbalanced. It'd put us CLOSER, yet still, imo, behind brawlers.Two trigger vs three trigger DI, recast starting upon termination rather than cast, and a longer downtime from it's expiration until it's ability to come back up.Furor vs Tsunami obviously Tsunami wins, as it makes the caster immune to strikethrough, and has HALF of the recast, as well as a 33% longer duration.Legionaire's Conviction vs 25% damage reduction, the 25% damage reduction wins because it grants reduction of physical as well as magical, in addition to the 25% damage reduction having a third of the recast.Respite vs Superior Guard, Superior Guard dominates it, half of the recast G_G.Blood Siphon vs Magic Ward, monk ability is much much more useful vs magical and there's no detriment to casting it, but can't be used to absorb physical, and a much lower recast. Magic Ward wins out.Then we go on to saves that the monk has, and we're out of ones to compare to, because that's all Shadowknights get.Bob and Weave, a second version of Tsunami, which the Shadowknights have nothing to compare to, on half the recast of furor.Inner Calm, two hit physical stoneskin on a fairly low recast (about a minute, the same as the other monk abilities, and half of the sk abilities).Group 15% damage reduction on a 40s recast, whose recast starts upon cast, so it's up half of the time.Innate avoidance that trumps ours, by half again more.Self-complete heal that grants 15% additional block on the target they cast it on, for fifteen seconds. Pretty sweet but it's decent cast time makes it less useful as a save, but it just increases their passive surivability even more.In reality there can be no direct comparison. Brawlers have better abilities, that come up faster, in addition to having better passive survivability.P.S. I didn't bother including SK lifetaps, as they are so miniscule in the current meta game that they don't matter. I might do .2-.4% of my own heals, ZW. It's quite ridiculous. A 2k lifetap when I have 80k hp and the mobs are trucking me for 30k, just doesn't matter.</blockquote>Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks) (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)??????? vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reductionI didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.Edit2: corrected touch of death reuse to 3min recast not 2.5min.

Bruener

01-26-2012, 10:41 PM

Really nobody cares what you think Gungo.What you fail to mention is the huge avoidance advantage you have which in turn makes your avoidance temps actually work 100%. You also forgot to bring up your % chance of having a stoneskin on a Riposte, which goes off all the time. How about the 30% damage reduction that procs anytime you are hit for 3 seconds that procs every 10 seconds?You also try and compare an ability like Manawall which has proven to be a very unstable ability to use since everything is a power drain....something that your comparison doesn't have to deal with at all. You talk about Blood Siphon which using can cause group members to die if you are actually trying to use it as a save for an AE. I mean I can go right down your list an not only is almost every single Bruiser ability a better ability for the situations...but they are also almost all up a lot faster.As stated. Change Myth ability and clicky to actually be useful. Make BL castable in-combat. Make non-% lifetap abilities crit. Than after that start talking about ways to make up the damage intake that the superior avoidance of either Brawler has and the difference in snap capability. I mean how much do you think a Crusader would have to heal themselves to make up the 15% more often they are getting hit? Basically heals like a healer. (Do you understand now why having a Brawler put avoidance on a SK would allow them to tank HM EoW with a solo healer?)I would guess that Paladins needs are pretty similar. Definitely some type of any damage taken absorbed ability on a decent recast. Some type of snap capability increase. Something to make up the disparity in damage taken since their heals aren't doing the job.Zerkers same type of situation. Really nobody knew that they were going to buff Brawlers up so high. If they did than they might as well have left Adrenaline alone since even with that it is not doing as much as what Monks are rotating. They also need to make up for not having as high avoidance...and the mitigation gap is non-existant.Furthermore, either ALL tanks need 360 avoidance or none do.

Gungo

01-26-2012, 10:50 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really nobody cares what you think Gungo.What you fail to mention is the huge avoidance advantage you have which in turn makes your avoidance temps actually work 100%. You also forgot to bring up your % chance of having a stoneskin on a Riposte, which goes off all the time. How about the 30% damage reduction that procs anytime you are hit for 3 seconds that procs every 10 seconds?You also try and compare an ability like Manawall which has proven to be a very unstable ability to use since everything is a power drain....something that your comparison doesn't have to deal with at all. You talk about Blood Siphon which using can cause group members to die if you are actually trying to use it as a save for an AE. I mean I can go right down your list an not only is almost every single Bruiser ability a better ability for the situations...but they are also almost all up a lot faster.As stated. Change Myth ability and clicky to actually be useful. Make BL castable in-combat. Make non-% lifetap abilities crit. Than after that start talking about ways to make up the damage intake that the superior avoidance of either Brawler has and the difference in snap capability. I mean how much do you think a Crusader would have to heal themselves to make up the 15% more often they are getting hit? Basically heals like a healer. (Do you understand now why having a Brawler put avoidance on a SK would allow them to tank HM EoW with a solo healer?)I would guess that Paladins needs are pretty similar. Definitely some type of any damage taken absorbed ability on a decent recast. Some type of snap capability increase. Something to make up the disparity in damage taken since their heals aren't doing the job.Zerkers same type of situation. Really nobody knew that they were going to buff Brawlers up so high. If they did than they might as well have left Adrenaline alone since even with that it is not doing as much as what Monks are rotating. They also need to make up for not having as high avoidance...and the mitigation gap is non-existant.Furthermore, either ALL tanks need 360 avoidance or none do.</blockquote>So what you are saying is you want more saves and abilites and brawler avoidance on your shadowknight. Like i said you want everything every other fighter has and MORE.Btw manawall does fine. I use the tribunal power drain miracle 30% reduction that eats MORE power then manawall. It works great as a save. 30% of the damage instead of 10% converted into power damage.I put up straight facts no bias I didnt even include my opinion in that post and your trying to say no one cares. You're so full of it. You honestly trying to say a 1 sec cast heal is better then an Insta cast 75k+ ward? Stop posting your bias is dripping from your mouth.

Darkonx

01-26-2012, 11:17 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not true though. At least what Netty posted. In combat BL and critical vitae/tap veins wouldn't make us imbalanced. It'd put us CLOSER, yet still, imo, behind brawlers.Two trigger vs three trigger DI, recast starting upon termination rather than cast, and a longer downtime from it's expiration until it's ability to come back up.Furor vs Tsunami obviously Tsunami wins, as it makes the caster immune to strikethrough, and has HALF of the recast, as well as a 33% longer duration.Legionaire's Conviction vs 25% damage reduction, the 25% damage reduction wins because it grants reduction of physical as well as magical, in addition to the 25% damage reduction having a third of the recast.Respite vs Superior Guard, Superior Guard dominates it, half of the recast G_G.Blood Siphon vs Magic Ward, monk ability is much much more useful vs magical and there's no detriment to casting it, but can't be used to absorb physical, and a much lower recast. Magic Ward wins out.Then we go on to saves that the monk has, and we're out of ones to compare to, because that's all Shadowknights get.Bob and Weave, a second version of Tsunami, which the Shadowknights have nothing to compare to, on half the recast of furor.Inner Calm, two hit physical stoneskin on a fairly low recast (about a minute, the same as the other monk abilities, and half of the sk abilities).Group 15% damage reduction on a 40s recast, whose recast starts upon cast, so it's up half of the time.Innate avoidance that trumps ours, by half again more.Self-complete heal that grants 15% additional block on the target they cast it on, for fifteen seconds. Pretty sweet but it's decent cast time makes it less useful as a save, but it just increases their passive surivability even more.In reality there can be no direct comparison. Brawlers have better abilities, that come up faster, in addition to having better passive survivability.P.S. I didn't bother including SK lifetaps, as they are so miniscule in the current meta game that they don't matter. I might do .2-.4% of my own heals, ZW. It's quite ridiculous. A 2k lifetap when I have 80k hp and the mobs are trucking me for 30k, just doesn't matter.</blockquote>Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks) (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Touch of death 2.5 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)??????? vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reductionI didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.</blockquote>Respite is 80 seconds, not 60Furor is 2 minutes 30 seconds, not 2 minutesDivine Aura will not stop any fatal one shot damage, and it's in an AA line that no crusader takes, because the ability became out dated years ago. Every single auto attack is >50% of hp, unmitigated, which is what the ability counts.LC, given, it's nice, but THREE MINUTE REUSE, unmodifiable even, thanks for thatBloodletter reuse is 2 minutes, and it doesn't matter when it comes up because you cant use it in combat, even if you COULD, it's 33% longer reuse than the brawler one, from the poitn of termination, with one less trigger. Lol?Blood Siphon is a 90s reuse, not 60s, and it brings every single member of your group to yellow, so if you use it just before an AE, an AE that would take any group member below 25% is now fatalTouch of Death is a 4 minute 30s reuse, not 2 minute 30 second. It's useful maybe once per fight, if that.Manawall bases it's drain off unmitigated damage. It's at most a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your entire manabar. Even then that's only useful on fights that don't powerdrain, or, as with Sullon, have a CAP ON HOW MUCH MANA YOU CAN HAVE.Mythical cloak is an item in a zone that's not even available yet? Can't really use that as a basis for our class being balanced.You're painting Shadowknights with a far rosier brush than we deserve. Be real about it. Shadowknights suck right now.

Gungo

01-27-2012, 01:26 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks) (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)??????? vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reductionI didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.</blockquote>Respite is 80 seconds, not 60Furor is 2 minutes 30 seconds, not 2 minutesDivine Aura will not stop any fatal one shot damage, and it's in an AA line that no crusader takes, because the ability became out dated years ago. Every single auto attack is >50% of hp, unmitigated, which is what the ability counts.LC, given, it's nice, but THREE MINUTE REUSE, unmodifiable even, thanks for thatBloodletter reuse is 2 minutes, and it doesn't matter when it comes up because you cant use it in combat, even if you COULD, it's 33% longer reuse than the brawler one, from the poitn of termination, with one less trigger. Lol?Blood Siphon is a 90s reuse, not 60s, and it brings every single member of your group to yellow, so if you use it just before an AE, an AE that would take any group member below 25% is now fatalTouch of Death is a 4 minute 30s reuse, not 2 minute 30 second. It's useful maybe once per fight, if that.Manawall bases it's drain off unmitigated damage. It's at most a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your entire manabar. Even then that's only useful on fights that don't powerdrain, or, as with Sullon, have a CAP ON HOW MUCH MANA YOU CAN HAVE.Mythical cloak is an item in a zone that's not even available yet? Can't really use that as a basis for our class being balanced.You're painting Shadowknights with a far rosier brush than we deserve. Be real about it. Shadowknights suck right now.</blockquote>You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.Right now anyone can grab bloodletter off the broker its a base 3min recast and 1.5min recast with 100% ability reuse.Right now touch of death is a base 6 min recast and 3 min reuse with 100% ability reuse (I thought it was a 5min base)Right now hateful respite is a 2 min base reuse and 1 min reuse with 100% ability reuseBlood siphon is 2 min base, 1 min w max reuseEVERYTHING i listed my numbers are right. except touch of death is a 6min base recast not 5 and thus a 3min not 2.5 min capped recast.I Use the tribunal mana 30% power drain miracle it wastes more power then manawall 30% power damage per hit instead of 10% of the damage. Both unmitigated. It works fine as a save.You can get 98.9% ability reuse from gear alone. Thats what i have without using chii right now in raids.I mentioned the mythical cloak because it is a HUGE class balance effecting item.

Darkonx

01-27-2012, 03:36 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets do this. First i said bruiser not monk, a class bruener and you have said is OP. Since both Bruiser and shadowknight are the offensive aoe versions of thier class. That is what i will compare. And I know them better. First EVERY fighter can get at least 98.9% reuse from gear. So i am going by the capped reuse on these abilities(not legionarrie since unmodifable, nor new myth cloak unmodfiable). Including changes to bloodletter castable in combat and the myth cloak. (I am not even going to comment on your monk comparisons because the reuse on half your abilites are wrong, also you failed to include manawall, touch of death and divine aura for shadowknights all of which you can get) Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Divine aura 2.5 min reuse 10sec duravoid buff/ full heal over time No damage under 50% of your heal (almost all auto atks) (also strikethrough doesnt matter for this comparison)Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless Will be down for 1.5 min AFTER its usedIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE wardStone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction NO phy damage over 60% of your health. (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)??????? vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reductionI didnt include my opinion on the comparison, but any logical person can do thier own seeing the above. As i stated right now ya bruisers are better but shadowknights are not broken and all the shadowknight needs is bloodletter in combat castable and that myth clicky to be as OP as brawlers/guards. You think tap veins and drain vitae should also crit sure I dont think it will unbalance the comparison much. Any other significant change would make shadowknights completely OP again.Edit: Actually make Divine Aura prevent all damage under 51% of your max health this way it will also prevent ALL coop strikes and its something a paladin can use as well.</blockquote>Respite is 80 seconds, not 60Furor is 2 minutes 30 seconds, not 2 minutesDivine Aura will not stop any fatal one shot damage, and it's in an AA line that no crusader takes, because the ability became out dated years ago. Every single auto attack is >50% of hp, unmitigated, which is what the ability counts.LC, given, it's nice, but THREE MINUTE REUSE, unmodifiable even, thanks for thatBloodletter reuse is 2 minutes, and it doesn't matter when it comes up because you cant use it in combat, even if you COULD, it's 33% longer reuse than the brawler one, from the poitn of termination, with one less trigger. Lol?Blood Siphon is a 90s reuse, not 60s, and it brings every single member of your group to yellow, so if you use it just before an AE, an AE that would take any group member below 25% is now fatalTouch of Death is a 4 minute 30s reuse, not 2 minute 30 second. It's useful maybe once per fight, if that.Manawall bases it's drain off unmitigated damage. It's at most a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your entire manabar. Even then that's only useful on fights that don't powerdrain, or, as with Sullon, have a CAP ON HOW MUCH MANA YOU CAN HAVE.Mythical cloak is an item in a zone that's not even available yet? Can't really use that as a basis for our class being balanced.You're painting Shadowknights with a far rosier brush than we deserve. Be real about it. Shadowknights suck right now.</blockquote>You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.Right now anyone can grab bloodletter off the broker its a base 3min recast and 1.5min recast with 100% ability reuse.Right now touch of death is a base 6 min recast and 3 min reuse with 100% ability reuse (I thought it was a 5min base)Right now hateful respite is a 2 min base reuse and 1 min reuse with 100% ability reuseBlood siphon is 2 min base, 1 min w max reuseEVERYTHING i listed my numbers are right. except touch of death is a 6min base recast not 5 and thus a 3min not 2.5 min capped recast.I Use the tribunal mana 30% power drain miracle it wastes more power then manawall 30% power damage per hit instead of 10% of the damage. Both unmitigated. It works fine as a save.You can get 98.9% ability reuse from gear alone. Thats what i have without using chii right now in raids.I mentioned the mythical cloak because it is a HUGE class balance effecting item.</blockquote>Lol. We're not lying. I'm just that good that I can tank the mobs that I tank on the monk, on an inferior class. It requires a lot more work to do so, I might add.I'm talking with the reuse that wearing 2x reuse wrists, and every single slot adorned with spell reuse, gives me. It's 48%.Your numbers are wrong, sorry.Tribunal mana miracle doesn't cancel when you hit 0% mana. Therefore, it's not at all the same. Manawall CANCELS IF YOU ZERO OUT, which happens after one hit. It's a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your manabar, IF you have mana to use it. If you don't, then it's a non-existant skill.I've played both classes extensively. It's night and day between the two. It feels like I'm 20 levels higher with gear from five expansions ahead on the monk, in comparison to the SK, when the SK actually HAS better gear. There's absolutely no reason for tanks to be as imbalanced as they are now.

Boli32

01-27-2012, 07:50 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.</blockquote>Crusaders don't get Chi so cannot reliablly get to 100% reuse - at least not their own terms and it requires another level of complexity. (e.g. JC and willing DPS to not get it)... and a few other corrections:Manawall unless they fixed it was unmitigated damage; if you used it to cover an incoming AoE and the mob Multiattacked you were left with Manawall dropping and no power to do anythign about it .. and then the AoE hit.Divine Aura only helped on damage shields and tanking adds; it did include mitigated damage and since it was counted before wards helped to "save up wards" before an AoE was due. Unfortunally due to this you had to pre-cast it before AoEs to get the best benefit out of it Casting it when the mbos casting bar was up did nothing; and if the AoE was delayed it severed no purpose.Legionaries Conviction the best abilities crusaders get was never perfect... I died when it was up several times asyou're still taking 60% of the damage.Furor and Stonewall can still be struck-through. Stonewall whilst having the lower recast if you were disarmed it was dispelled and only worked against frontal attacksI still find it amusing that SKs get more saves than a pally tho....

Controlor

01-27-2012, 02:08 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys need to stop lying seriously. I am talking with 100% reuse Not whatever reuse you feel like talking about. If you are going to comapre abilities compare them equally not making up whatever recast you feel like.</blockquote>Crusaders don't get Chi so cannot reliablly get to 100% reuse - at least not their own terms and it requires another level of complexity. (e.g. JC and willing DPS to not get it)... and a few other corrections:Manawall unless they fixed it was unmitigated damage; if you used it to cover an incoming AoE and the mob Multiattacked you were left with Manawall dropping and no power to do anythign about it .. and then the AoE hit.Divine Aura only helped on damage shields and tanking adds; it did include mitigated damage and since it was counted before wards helped to "save up wards" before an AoE was due. Unfortunally due to this you had to pre-cast it before AoEs to get the best benefit out of it Casting it when the mbos casting bar was up did nothing; and if the AoE was delayed it severed no purpose.Legionaries Conviction the best abilities crusaders get was never perfect... I died when it was up several times asyou're still taking 60% of the damage.Furor and Stonewall can still be struck-through. Stonewall whilst having the lower recast if you were disarmed it was dispelled and only worked against frontal attacksI still find it amusing that SKs get more saves than a pally tho....</blockquote>More saves and more snaps actually. Though i suppose on the snap department at least holy ground is up faster than their aoe snap (name excaping my mind).

Gungo

01-27-2012, 10:52 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol. We're not lying. I'm just that good that I can tank the mobs that I tank on the monk, on an inferior class. It requires a lot more work to do so, I might add.I'm talking with the reuse that wearing 2x reuse wrists, and every single slot adorned with spell reuse, gives me. It's 48%.Your numbers are wrong, sorry.Tribunal mana miracle doesn't cancel when you hit 0% mana. Therefore, it's not at all the same. Manawall CANCELS IF YOU ZERO OUT, which happens after one hit. It's a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your manabar, IF you have mana to use it. If you don't, then it's a non-existant skill.I've played both classes extensively. It's night and day between the two. It feels like I'm 20 levels higher with gear from five expansions ahead on the monk, in comparison to the SK, when the SK actually HAS better gear. There's absolutely no reason for tanks to be as imbalanced as they are now.</blockquote>You are wrong. You can get 98.9% reuse in raids on ANY tank with the gear we both have access to. (Shadowknights get MORE)I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.Neck 8.4wrist 8.4wrist 8.4cloak 8.4waist 7.2charm 7.5Adornments 14Heroic AA 10Adornment proc 12%That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse. These are my numbers in raid. My numbers ACCURATE. As a shadowknight you have more reuse via AA then i can get. So dont tell me you cant get 100% reuse and if you dont its a failure on your gearing. The abilities i compared i compared EQUALLY with the same reuse % that EVERY tank can get. I am comparing bruisers vs shadowknights. Both 100% reuse. I agree bruisers are currently better but ALL shadowknights need is that myth cloak effect and bloodletter castable in combat to be just as good as bruisers. If you think vitae and tap veins need to crit fine, It shouldnt unbalance but both classes are the AOE offensive version of thier respective classes. Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker. Divine aura was removed because no shadowknight would use it from the list below. The list is still however ACCURATE. Bloodletter in combat castable and that cloak effect goes a long way to balancing these classes.Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

Controlor

01-28-2012, 02:11 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker.</blockquote>If only that were actually the case. As stated by boli and me directly above this post. SK's get more saves and snaps currently than paladins. So if you go by your comparison of monk vs paladin, then it is just laughable.

lostsandman

01-28-2012, 03:14 PM

Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have similar amount of snaps as SK?For completeness, its better to compare those as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gungo

01-28-2012, 03:33 PM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker.</blockquote>If only that were actually the case. As stated by boli and me directly above this post. SK's get more saves and snaps currently than paladins. So if you go by your comparison of monk vs paladin, then it is just laughable. </blockquote>It should be the case and everyone knows it isnt. between brawler subclasses it is balanced a bit more that way. Now you have shadowknights who want to maintank as good as monks, guards but they also want to do more dps and have better aoe snaps then those classes and be better offtanks. That is not balanced.Everyone that plays right now knows shadowknights are better defensively and offensively then paladins. As you can see some people want balance and some people just want everything. The changes i stated above will balance shadowknights with bruisers, (zerkers need a total overhaul defensively and with sustained hate to even come close to those two classes). Paladins need a reliable damage prevention temp. The new myth cloak seems like they were going that route but falls rediculously short of that mark. It needs to be at least a 90sec reuse ability, it needs to prevent the paladin from dieing from one shots. A duration of 8 secs would be fine if it behaved like the clerics equillibrium and prevented the paladin from death. Even with an ability as powerful as that paladin still may not be better defensively then shadowknights.

Gungo

01-28-2012, 03:41 PM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have similar amount of snaps as SK?For completeness, its better to compare those as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It is still useful as a save I see it used on raids all the time. Does it have draw backs sure. I tried to compare abilities that were similar in use and recast. The ward is infintely better then the bruiser self heal. There just isnt alot of times i am sitting in raid 50% or lower in health where i have time to cast a 1 sec cast time self heal. The heal is also not something i can use to prevent an inc large hit. So the comparison is appropriate.Bruisers currently dont tank similar amounts of damage and snaps then shadowknights, but it is my point that the changes to bloodletter in combat castable and the new myth cloak effect with possibly making vitae and tap veins crit would make them balanced. I can do another comparison with the aoe snaps as well. I may even include zerkers who imho have comparable aoe snaps for this (zerkers are just mainly screwed with thier defensive temps).

lostsandman

01-28-2012, 03:57 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have similar amount of snaps as SK?For completeness, its better to compare those as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It is still useful as a save I see it used on raids all the time. Does it have draw backs sure. I tried to compare abilities that were similar in use and recast. The ward is infintely better then the bruiser self heal. There just isnt alot of times i am sitting in raid 50% or lower in health where i have time to cast a 1 sec cast time self heal. The heal is also not something i can use to prevent an inc large hit. So the comparison is appropriate.Bruisers currently dont tank similar amounts of damage and snaps then shadowknights, but it is my point that the changes to bloodletter in combat castable and the new myth cloak effect with possibly making vitae and tap veins crit would make them balanced. I can do another comparison with the aoe snaps as well. I may even include zerkers who imho have comparable aoe snaps for this (zerkers are just mainly screwed with thier defensive temps).</blockquote>So do they take more or less damage? Or in your opinion the difference is not noticeable? Also what about snaps?I really like to see proper comparison, not for trolling etc but really curious.I know for sure, monks have lot more snaps and takes lot less damage than SK.

Aull

01-28-2012, 06:07 PM

The sk myth cloak might be a good thing to help the sk's but that will only be available to an elite and select few sk's. So what about the other sk's that cannot attain the myth cloak?? I guess they will be walking down the road kickin rocks.Gear shouldn't be what a sub-class needs as a reason to fix problem that exsist at the core level. We all know that. Any issues that sk's do have need to be addressed as part of the entire focus of what an sk should be. That way all sk's from the elite high end raiding sk's down to the casual sk will benefit. That applies to all fighters as well.Paladins I thought should be more defensive than the sk since the sk is superior in damage but for an sk to want more survivability yet keep their strong dps would again put the paladin on the back burner. There has to be trade offs.If gear is what is intended to help a sub-class with issues then the zerker will need more mythical equipment than any other fighter just to fix zerker abilities. However like the crusaders a zerker that gets to much defense will overshadow the guardian. Not saying zerkers do not need help in their abilities cause on raids zerkers just don't add up. In everyday norrath a zerker is fine.No fighter class should be an ace in the combination of offense, defense, aggro, and utility. Right now I believe that the monk is that fighter. A bruiser would come close.

Gungo

01-28-2012, 06:53 PM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have similar amount of snaps as SK?For completeness, its better to compare those as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It is still useful as a save I see it used on raids all the time. Does it have draw backs sure. I tried to compare abilities that were similar in use and recast. The ward is infintely better then the bruiser self heal. There just isnt alot of times i am sitting in raid 50% or lower in health where i have time to cast a 1 sec cast time self heal. The heal is also not something i can use to prevent an inc large hit. So the comparison is appropriate.Bruisers currently dont tank similar amounts of damage and snaps then shadowknights, but it is my point that the changes to bloodletter in combat castable and the new myth cloak effect with possibly making vitae and tap veins crit would make them balanced. I can do another comparison with the aoe snaps as well. I may even include zerkers who imho have comparable aoe snaps for this (zerkers are just mainly screwed with thier defensive temps).</blockquote>So do they take more or less damage? Or in your opinion the difference is not noticeable? Also what about snaps?I really like to see proper comparison, not for trolling etc but really curious.I know for sure, monks have lot more snaps and takes lot less damage than SK.</blockquote>Both brawlers currently take less damage then any tank Monk followed by.bruisers Guards are not far behind and shadowknights are probably the next closest with paladins not far behind them and zerkers trailing behind.Monks really dont have an aoe snap except mantis leap and provoking stance(kinda). But they excel on single target snaps and defensive temps. I will work on the aoe snap comparison in a bit between bruiser, shadowknight and zerker when i have time.

Gungo

01-28-2012, 07:09 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>The sk myth cloak might be a good thing to help the sk's but that will only be available to an elite and select few sk's. So what about the other sk's that cannot attain the myth cloak?? I guess they will be walking down the road kickin rocks.Gear shouldn't be what a sub-class needs as a reason to fix problem that exsist at the core level. We all know that. Any issues that sk's do have need to be addressed as part of the entire focus of what an sk should be. That way all sk's from the elite high end raiding sk's down to the casual sk will benefit. That applies to all fighters as well.Paladins I thought should be more defensive than the sk since the sk is superior in damage but for an sk to want more survivability yet keep their strong dps would again put the paladin on the back burner. There has to be trade offs.If gear is what is intended to help a sub-class with issues then the zerker will need more mythical equipment than any other fighter just to fix zerker abilities. However like the crusaders a zerker that gets to much defense will overshadow the guardian. Not saying zerkers do not need help in their abilities cause on raids zerkers just don't add up. In everyday norrath a zerker is fine.No fighter class should be an ace in the combination of offense, defense, aggro, and utility. Right now I believe that the monk is that fighter. A bruiser would come close.</blockquote>I agree gear shouldnt be the be all end all of class balance, but it does. Just like the old myths were. I believe from what I am told those cloaks are suppose to be our new myth rewards from the DOV timeline quest. They are not raid drops persay but a quest update (in other words it ay require a raid update but i havent been told if its a EM or HM only update).Monks i agree are a very good class and imho 3 triggers on the death save for either brawler may be a bit much even after those changes i recommended. The heroic AA could just increase duration and loose the extra trigger and still be a decent AA. But monks still do not have the AOE snaps potential of any of the aoe offensive tanks. They only have access to mantis leap AA and kinda (provoking stance AA). Even thier Aoe atks are extremely weak. Utility egh you can claim they have Combat Mastery, but if they plan on tanking its better for them and thier group to take stonecold. Because provoking stance(25) or stonecold(15) alone wont save them from a one shot together though they stack to be a decent 1 shot preventing combo (40). There is not much utility to them beyond that.

Aull

01-28-2012, 08:08 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree gear shouldnt be the be all end all of class balance, but it does. Just like the old myths were.</blockquote>Back when the talk of mythical weapons was stirring around I was stoked. However for a while only the elite were able to attain them in a quick time. Not long after that if a player (no matter what arch type) didn't have their myth they were basically shunned from most groups. That is because those weapons were so great. Once a player got it then any other weapon for a long time was not needed cause nothing could compair.It was (for me anyway) what kinda hurt the game overall. It didn't break it, but it sure made thing different for a while for alot a players who didn't have their mythicals after the first two months of release.Gear should have meaning but it shouldn't be so awesome that nothing else for two years can replace it.

Gungo

01-28-2012, 08:36 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree gear shouldnt be the be all end all of class balance, but it does. Just like the old myths were.</blockquote>Back when the talk of mythical weapons was stirring around I was stoked. However for a while only the elite were able to attain them in a quick time. Not long after that if a player (no matter what arch type) didn't have their myth they were basically shunned from most groups. That is because those weapons were so great. Once a player got it then any other weapon for a long time was not needed cause nothing could compair.It was (for me anyway) what kinda hurt the game overall. It didn't break it, but it sure made thing different for a while for alot a players who didn't have their mythicals after the first two months of release.Gear should have meaning but it shouldn't be so awesome that nothing else for two years can replace it.</blockquote>I dont think any of these cloak myth effects are as powerful as most of those myth weapon buffs were but it is the same concept, I agree.

Darkonx

01-29-2012, 10:45 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol. We're not lying. I'm just that good that I can tank the mobs that I tank on the monk, on an inferior class. It requires a lot more work to do so, I might add.I'm talking with the reuse that wearing 2x reuse wrists, and every single slot adorned with spell reuse, gives me. It's 48%.Your numbers are wrong, sorry.Tribunal mana miracle doesn't cancel when you hit 0% mana. Therefore, it's not at all the same. Manawall CANCELS IF YOU ZERO OUT, which happens after one hit. It's a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your manabar, IF you have mana to use it. If you don't, then it's a non-existant skill.I've played both classes extensively. It's night and day between the two. It feels like I'm 20 levels higher with gear from five expansions ahead on the monk, in comparison to the SK, when the SK actually HAS better gear. There's absolutely no reason for tanks to be as imbalanced as they are now.</blockquote>You are wrong. You can get 98.9% reuse in raids on ANY tank with the gear we both have access to. (Shadowknights get MORE)I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.Neck 8.4wrist 8.4wrist 8.4cloak 8.4waist 7.2charm 7.5Adornments 14Heroic AA 10Adornment proc 12%That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse. These are my numbers in raid. My numbers ACCURATE. As a shadowknight you have more reuse via AA then i can get. So dont tell me you cant get 100% reuse and if you dont its a failure on your gearing. The abilities i compared i compared EQUALLY with the same reuse % that EVERY tank can get. I am comparing bruisers vs shadowknights. Both 100% reuse. I agree bruisers are currently better but ALL shadowknights need is that myth cloak effect and bloodletter castable in combat to be just as good as bruisers. If you think vitae and tap veins need to crit fine, It shouldnt unbalance but both classes are the AOE offensive version of thier respective classes. Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker. Divine aura was removed because no shadowknight would use it from the list below. The list is still however ACCURATE. Bloodletter in combat castable and that cloak effect goes a long way to balancing these classes.Inner focus 60 sec reuse vs hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins 1 ANY stoneskinImpenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur vs Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency Avoid buff/20% potency/+hateUnyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur vs Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time NO phy damage over 60% of your health. Stone deaf 1 min reuse vs Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins 40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs 2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longerIgnore pain 45 sec reuse vs Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal Its a HUGE ward 60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur vs Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot) (Will stop at least one 1 shots)??????? vs New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur 40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue</blockquote>No? For instance, the belt you're using to make the comparison is a heroic belt. Other slots are ONE select item grants reuse, such as the neck from Sullon.Class balance doesn't rotate around having a specific piece of gear for every single slot. If that has to happen for classes to be COMPARABLE, then it's broken. I listed the correct values on my Sk. I've obviously declined too much gear to you for you to have that much of an advantage.I'm getting tired arguing with my offtank about what is balanced, when I've played both classes extensively, and you haven't.Some of the comparisons, like Brawlers Tenacity vs Bloodletter. It has to be some kind of joke to even try to compare those two abilities. One is 2 triggers fo Di over the course of any duration of fight, the other is 3 every few seconds. It's just not even remotely balanced.

Novusod

01-30-2012, 03:10 AM

These abilities all have their strengths and weaknesses. Bloodletter has an Unlimited duration while brawlers tenacity can expire without ever triggering. That is ballanced. Letting bloodletter be recastible in combat would be over powered as hell because it would literally never be down due to the Unlimited duration.

Soul_Dreamer

01-30-2012, 09:05 AM

Of course it would be down, the recast doesn't start when the ability is used, it's recast starts when either:A.) All triggers are used up so the ability is removed from maintained spells.B.) The ability is cancelled.I'm a Guardian and I always have been, I've been MT for my guild since KoS. Every expansion as far back as I've been playing 1 or 2 Fighter classed have been the preferred MT/OT, class balance would be a nice thing but I don't think it will happen.Right now I think Guardians are were the most "Defensive" tank is meant to be, I don't think Monks and Bruisers should be bringing all their dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities and be up there with Guardians defensively. Especially Bruisers who are meant to be the offensive brawler. That said, I really don't care anymore, I'm fed up with the same argument year after year, I've accepted that SOE don't care about fighter balance anymore and I have 1 of each Fighter type, Monk/Paladin/Guardian. If it gets to the stage where being a Guardian is hurting my guild I'll switch to the "Current" tank type.

lostsandman

01-30-2012, 11:37 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course it would be down, the recast doesn't start when the ability is used, it's recast starts when either:A.) All triggers are used up so the ability is removed from maintained spells.B.) The ability is cancelled.I'm a Guardian and I always have been, I've been MT for my guild since KoS. Every expansion as far back as I've been playing 1 or 2 Fighter classed have been the preferred MT/OT, class balance would be a nice thing but I don't think it will happen.Right now I think Guardians are were the most "Defensive" tank is meant to be, I don't think Monks and Bruisers should be bringing all their dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities and be up there with Guardians defensively. Especially Bruisers who are meant to be the offensive brawler. That said, I really don't care anymore, I'm fed up with the same argument year after year, I've accepted that SOE don't care about fighter balance anymore and I have 1 of each Fighter type, Monk/Paladin/Guardian. If it gets to the stage where being a Guardian is hurting my guild I'll switch to the "Current" tank type.</blockquote>I have been playing this game since release and I am also of the opinion that SOE don't care about fighter balance! I think you are right and the best thing to do is to have one of each fighter type. It will certainly be good for my blood pressure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aull

01-30-2012, 03:49 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Of course it would be down, the recast doesn't start when the ability is used, it's recast starts when either:A.) All triggers are used up so the ability is removed from maintained spells.B.) The ability is cancelled.I'm a Guardian and I always have been, I've been MT for my guild since KoS. Every expansion as far back as I've been playing 1 or 2 Fighter classed have been the preferred MT/OT, class balance would be a nice thing but I don't think it will happen.Right now I think Guardians are were the most "Defensive" tank is meant to be, I don't think Monks and Bruisers should be bringing all their dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities and be up there with Guardians defensively. Especially Bruisers who are meant to be the offensive brawler. That said, I really don't care anymore, I'm fed up with the same argument year after year, I've accepted that SOE don't care about fighter balance anymore and I have 1 of each Fighter type, Monk/Paladin/Guardian. If it gets to the stage where being a Guardian is hurting my guild I'll switch to the "Current" tank type.</blockquote>Guards to me should be the most defensive tank just because they lack in everything you stated about what monk and bruisers have. Any fighter that has a good combo of dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities will overshadow others who only have defense.That is where it goes wrong. One fighter that has stronger damage should not be given defensive abilities that rival a fighter who has strong defense but never gets stronger damage in return. I have stated it before but I remember when monk tsunami was unique only to the monk class and it should have remained that way. No other fighter should have received an ability that mocks what the monk class had. That is just an example.I don't think this debate will ever end. Having six fighters all competeing for one position is just to complicated.

Soul_Dreamer

01-30-2012, 08:40 PM

The fact that in raiding there is only really one role for fighters is the largest problem really. SOE created the problem, it would have been much better all around had it been something like the below.1.Rank tanks DPS as something like:Bruiser > SK > Zerk > Monk > Paladin > GuardianThen their sustained incomming damage to be:Guardian > Paladin > Monk > Zerk > SK > BruiserThere will then be some sort of Balance, if the difference from top to bottom on both is only 20% or so, all the better.2. Remove ALL snaps and Damage absorbs from all tanks, use the majority of the spaces created to balance 1.3. Give each tank 1 Damage absorb, each tank 2 snaps.Absorbs, they are all on TARGET, so you can cast them on another tank who is tanking, or yourself if it's your ability.Guardian - TOS - 4 shot stone skin - 2 min recast.Zerk - Adrenalin - 50% damage reduction for 20 seconds - 2 min recast.Paladin - Wall of Marr - 2 shot stone skin, 30k ward on termination - 2 min recast.SK - Similar.Monk - Similar.Bruiser - Similar.Snaps - ALL have rescue, then all have an ability similar to Guardian recapture which snaps hate to ALL Tanks in the raid/group, or snaps to target etc.Now, all tanks can MT all content, not just the 1 with the most/best abilities, DPS/AOE/Inc damage is more just flavor than what determines who is MT. Obviously SOE would have to be very careful when adding snaps/damage absorbs, to any class, or just stay away from them all together. All tanks can do heroic content because they all have 2 snaps, and at least the 1 damage absorb.Personally I'd much prefer a system like this, but ahh well. Like I said, nothing will ever happen, we'll all just keep arguing that class X/Y/Z cant have that 1 role in raids from expansion to expansion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aull

01-31-2012, 12:37 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact that in raiding there is only really one role for fighters is the largest problem really. SOE created the problem, it would have been much better all around had it been something like the below.1.Rank tanks DPS as something like:Bruiser > SK > Zerk > Monk > Paladin > GuardianThen their sustained incomming damage to be:Guardian > Paladin > Monk > Zerk > SK > BruiserThere will then be some sort of Balance, if the difference from top to bottom on both is only 20% or so, all the better.2. Remove ALL snaps and Damage absorbs from all tanks, use the majority of the spaces created to balance 1.3. Give each tank 1 Damage absorb, each tank 2 snaps.Absorbs, they are all on TARGET, so you can cast them on another tank who is tanking, or yourself if it's your ability.Guardian - TOS - 4 shot stone skin - 2 min recast.Zerk - Adrenalin - 50% damage reduction for 20 seconds - 2 min recast.Paladin - Wall of Marr - 2 shot stone skin, 30k ward on termination - 2 min recast.SK - Similar.Monk - Similar.Bruiser - Similar.Snaps - ALL have rescue, then all have an ability similar to Guardian recapture which snaps hate to ALL Tanks in the raid/group, or snaps to target etc.Now, all tanks can MT all content, not just the 1 with the most/best abilities, DPS/AOE/Inc damage is more just flavor than what determines who is MT. Obviously SOE would have to be very careful when adding snaps/damage absorbs, to any class, or just stay away from them all together. All tanks can do heroic content because they all have 2 snaps, and at least the 1 damage absorb.Personally I'd much prefer a system like this, but ahh well. Like I said, nothing will ever happen, we'll all just keep arguing that class X/Y/Z cant have that 1 role in raids from expansion to expansion <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I agree with what you have on the rankings. I would also like to mention that each sub-class should be an antithesis of each other. They can share some abilities at the class level but at the sub-class level allow differences that have reason for having two in each class.I couldn't enjoy my zerker being every bit as strong defensively as the guard nor would the guard being every bit as strong of offense as the zerker. Again why have two if both are the same. If the zerker did get an defensive ability similar to the guardian then its duration should only be half of what the guards is and the reuse twice as long. If the guard had an offensive ability similar to the zerker then its duration should be half and its reuse twice as long. That would be acceptable at least to me.

Novusod

01-31-2012, 06:31 AM

You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.

Boli32

01-31-2012, 07:20 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.</blockquote>Between brawlers and guardian perhaps; but not the other tanks.This is why this issue raises its ugly head constantly - there are more than 3 tank subclasses in the game!

Soul_Dreamer

01-31-2012, 07:22 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.</blockquote>The DPS advantage hasn't been removed, it's just been lessened. Or are you, a duel weilding brawler, claiming you do the same DPS as a Guardian behind a shield when both are defensive? Sorry, I call BS to this. The only reason you think Balance is good right now is because Bruisers are one of the classes at the top of the heap this expansion. When fighting progression mobs, a guild is stupid to not use a Brawler/Guardian, if they use any other tank type they're making it harder for themselves. Some (Zerks) are shockingly un-balanced right now.The balancing of DPS against sustained incomming damage is just to give all tanks a level base, the specialisations/choices then come in their buffs/AOE/ST advantages. The whole idea I outlined wasn't to balance tanks with DPS, it's to achieve "All tanks can MT" by making it so that more than 1 tank is needed to perform the role, NOT giving all tanks all abilities to perform the role and thereby making them all the same.The fact that there exists the one "MT" role is half the trouble because everyone wants to do it. It's what 90% of fighter whinging/calls for nerf etc are all for. If it took 3 tanks working together to perform this role it would be a lot less of an issue.It would be much more preferable:If each tank only had 1 Large defensive ability for stopping the large AOE's/Stopping Spikes, and it took 2-4 tanks in a raid using those abilities to protect/snap agro to the MT.Than a couple of tanks each expansion had the preffered qualities/abilities needed to perform the MT role and the rest didn't.EG: Instead of a Guardian cycling Tower of Stone/Last man Standing/Perfect Counter on large AOE's, you'd have the Guardian using Tower of Stone, and the Paladin/Monk using their abilities ON THE GUARDIAN when needed. Alternatively a SK could be tanking and using whatever his ability is and the Guardian/Bruiser cycling theirs on the SK to keep him alive.I'm not getting drawn into this argument again though, or sit here arguing about the merits/drawbacks of proposed systems because non of it matters. SOE will do what they will and fighter balance will continue to sway different ways each expansion. There's just no point in sitting here pi**ing into the wind.

Aull

01-31-2012, 10:55 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.</blockquote>What they did is gave the once weakest defensive tank (bruiser) awesome defensive capability. They didn't necessarily remove the bruiser dps advantange via direct nerf to abilities but rather raised all other fighters up. Well except the guardian.Now the reason I think that we are seeing monks and bruisers being brought up to the greatness they are defensively is that end game raid content is basically the only area that veteran players are interested in. That is all they have to do. With content catering to the end game more and more each expac or update there is no reason for a bruiser or any fighter to be an offensive tank. So I agree with Novusod in this area cause on raids if a fighter can't stay alive then they can't dps anyway. Hence a fighter that is alive will do more dps than a dead fighter.Again if there was more overland content that allowed for any fighter to be offensive then yes I can see there being fighters known for their offense.While I do not think balance is possible with six fighters I will say that for defensive raid main tanking I would rate them as #1 guard, #2 monk, #3 bruiser, #4 sk, #5 paladin, and last zerk.Defensively I see no reason for a dev to look at guards, monks, and bruisers.

Netty

01-31-2012, 02:57 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.</blockquote>What they did is gave the once weakest defensive tank (bruiser) awesome defensive capability. They didn't necessarily remove the bruiser dps advantange via direct nerf to abilities but rather raised all other fighters up. Well except the guardian.Now the reason I think that we are seeing monks and bruisers being brought up to the greatness they are defensively is that end game raid content is basically the only area that veteran players are interested in. That is all they have to do. With content catering to the end game more and more each expac or update there is no reason for a bruiser or any fighter to be an offensive tank. So I agree with Novusod in this area cause on raids if a fighter can't stay alive then they can't dps anyway. Hence a fighter that is alive will do more dps than a dead fighter.Again if there was more overland content that allowed for any fighter to be offensive then yes I can see there being fighters known for their offense.While I do not think balance is possible with six fighters I will say that for defensive raid main tanking I would rate them as #1 guard, #2 monk, #3 bruiser, #4 sk, #5 paladin, and last zerk.Defensively I see no reason for a dev to look at guards, monks, and bruisers.</blockquote>Its more like 1. Monk 2. Bruiser 3. Guardian 4. Shadowknight 5. Paladin 6. Berserker. Thats for inc damage for themself. Guards do protect the group/raid better tho and have amazing stuff to do so. But for the inc damage on the tank itself both brawlers wins hands down.Both warriors suffer alot wearing a shield in dps loss guards got the tools to handle that tho with the update in the end of SF.

Gungo

01-31-2012, 11:29 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its more like 1. Monk 2. Bruiser 3. Guardian 4. Shadowknight 5. Paladin 6. Berserker. Thats for inc damage for themself. Guards do protect the group/raid better tho and have amazing stuff to do so. But for the inc damage on the tank itself both brawlers wins hands down.Both warriors suffer alot wearing a shield in dps loss guards got the tools to handle that tho with the update in the end of SF.</blockquote>This from what i see in game is 100% accurate.And there is no longer a dps vs survivability paradigm with tanksPaladins, monks, gaurds, should survive a tiny bit better as a maintank and have slightly better single target snaps. SK, zerk, bruiser should dps better and have better Aoe Snaps/ and if possible survive a bit better vs multiple npcs.

Yimway

02-01-2012, 01:08 PM

A monk MT with a guard support in MT group is hands down the most powerful tanking in game. The difference in that tanks ability to survive as well as dps is miles beyond everyone else (with exception to bruiser, only slightly better).Tanking mechanics overall need a revamp. Us argueing about it though will do little, cause when SOE comes to the realization they will not form their sollution based upon our endless ranting.In short, suck it up till they finally have the time in their schedule to acknowledge the issue.

Aull

02-01-2012, 01:50 PM

I have little faith here. I have yet to see any semi-active participation from a dev on any fighter issue in some time.If waiting is the answer then all of us here might as well throw in the towel cause that is all we do. It disturbs me that almost a year later the rest of the DOV content still has not been released and what should have been given this month is now pushed back to April.As far as arguements go I feel that this threat did get rough but now we for the most part are being respectful even when we disagree.

Aull

02-01-2012, 04:57 PM

Official news and announcements has an interesting read. Crit mit removed.

Talathion

02-01-2012, 05:11 PM

I wish Warriors had there buckler line back.

TheShah

02-03-2012, 08:23 AM

<img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/6ympp2.png" />Gungo's right, SKs and brawlers are completely balanced:Inner focus 60 sec reuse 2 PHY only stone skins Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse 12 sec dur avoid buff/20% potency Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time Stone deaf 1 min reuse 3 Magic only stone skins Brawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse 1.5min dur vs POCKET BRAWLER3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless Ignore pain 45 sec reuse 100% heal Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur 15% ALL damage reduction (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)

lostsandman

02-03-2012, 11:12 AM

Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?

Talathion

02-03-2012, 02:15 PM

Brawlers need nerfed or other tanks need a huge buff :/

Yimway

02-03-2012, 02:27 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers need nerfed or other tanks need a huge buff :/</blockquote>But we've known this since expansion launch.Either play the OP class or wait atleast an expansion till things are fixed. We've all been playing long enough to understand how the game works.

Netty

02-03-2012, 03:40 PM

Well im going to put the zerk aside for now and stop making threads about fixes so grats! Why well sems tallon is back posting hes awsome ideas everywhere so i just lost the hope for this class again. I dont care if i get banned for typing this... but ty for ruin this class tallon. Sadly i dont think you can ruin it that much more now.

Aull

02-03-2012, 04:13 PM

It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.

Talathion

02-03-2012, 07:36 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.</blockquote>Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.

TheShah

02-04-2012, 04:56 AM

<cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?</blockquote> <img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/4r739y.png" width="696" height="462" />

Gungo

02-04-2012, 02:42 PM

<cite>TheShah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?</blockquote> <img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/4r739y.png" width="696" height="462" /></blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Gungo

02-04-2012, 02:44 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.</blockquote>Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.</blockquote>You do realize like nearly every zerker agrees you are the biggest reason zerkers are in the horrid shape they are in now.

Talathion

02-04-2012, 04:19 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.</blockquote>Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.</blockquote>You do realize like nearly every zerker agrees you are the biggest reason zerkers are in the horrid shape they are in now.</blockquote>The Devs havent worked on class balance in years, I don't even know if they have one left working on it.Thats mostly why.

Bruener

02-04-2012, 06:52 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.</blockquote>Give it up Gungo. Brawler avoidance = another healer. I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit. It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance. The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse. More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.

Bruener

02-04-2012, 06:54 PM

Wanted to add if Crusaders could heal others and themselves the HPS equivalent to what Brawler avoidance gives themselves and others you would see heal numbers pushing any healer in the game easily.Crusader heals in SF were far from encroaching on healers and got nerfed hard anyway......

Gungo

02-04-2012, 09:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.</blockquote>Give it up Gungo. Brawler avoidance = another healer. I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit. It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance. The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse. More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.</blockquote>First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.

Talathion

02-04-2012, 10:25 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.</blockquote>Give it up Gungo. Brawler avoidance = another healer. I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit. It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance. The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse. More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.</blockquote>First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.</blockquote>Gungo, what do you sacrifice for your avoidance?You don't have to sacrifice an off-hand slot.You don't have to sacrifice mitigation.You don't have to sacrifice healing.You don't have to sacrifice your damage.Bruener just wants his healing to be on-par with your avoidance, whats wrong with this?Truth is I don't want anyone nerfed, I just want everyone buffed to be on-par with current classes.

Gungo

02-04-2012, 11:05 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.</blockquote>Give it up Gungo. Brawler avoidance = another healer. I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit. It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance. The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse. More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.</blockquote>First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.</blockquote>Gungo, what do you sacrifice for your avoidance?You don't have to sacrifice an off-hand slot.You don't have to sacrifice mitigation.You don't have to sacrifice healing.You don't have to sacrifice your damage.</blockquote>If you are talking crusader they get a a massive damage bonus for using the shield that makes thier damage comparable to duel wielding. Furthermore once you get into HM content spells have nearly 100% hit chance where melee hit rates plummet. For a bruiser my hit rates in drunder is 50%. Bruisers have ZERO strikethrough from AA's or buffs, unlike every other tank, but even a monk with nearly 100% strikethrough doesnt get much higher then 70% hit rates. If you are complaining about zerks. Ya i and everyone else in this thread admitted they need work.Mitigation % as a stat is specifically a choice over other stats. Without investing heavily into mitigation % then a brawler comes no where near close to plate mitigation. Taking EVERY character trait for mit and having the best HM gear you can get for a brawler currently gives me 6680 mitigation for a whooping 61% mit vs a level 90 npc (not a 98 like every raid npc). So what does a brawler do to fix this he SACRIFICES the choice of accuracy, strikethrough, Multiatk, or block chance for mitigation % in jewerly, He takes the 6% mitigation warrune for the chest. With all the Mit % drunder HM jewerly and warrunes i can get at the SACRIFICE of those other stats i mentioned i get to 7140 mit or 62.9% (vs 90). Well below the 75% mit cap. Btw its not possible for any brawler to reach that cap vs a lvl 98 npc. You might be thinking the wrong expansion since mit % was FIXED in DOV and brawler got alot less mitigation since SF.Healing? Both Brawlers have 1 non reactive heal. You act like there is a heal gap with brawlers somewhere there. Take a look at a raid heal parse. You will see every plate tank but a guard higher on the heal parse.As far as dps please see above on learning how to gear correctly I think it might help you, furthermore every monk in the world who maintanks should take stonecold over combat mastery. Combat mastery is our only real utility and only noticable dps choice we have rolled into one. And yet the reason they should take stonecold (and this is just my opinion) is because provokign stance is a 25% damage reduction and that alone is usually not enough to prevent them from dying, but STACKED with stonecold (15%) it gives them 2 saves combines into 40% reduction and can prevent any of the one shot hits for a set period of time. So if you want to tank its a noticable choice to survive as a maintank and afaik most monks who maintank do make the choice of either defensive buff in the heroic tree over Combat mastery.You talk about choices but you honestly dont have a clue how to play a brawler. Because the biggest stat for ANY tank in DOV raids is not anything you mentioned. The biggest stat for any tank to survive in raids in DOV is reuse. Reuse is the difference between having yor stoneskin up and not for EVERY tank. And the biggest aggro buff in game is HATE GAIN %. Honestly when i see a tank complain about aggro or loose aggro from npcs and I see that they do not even use the 5% hate gain white adorns on thier gloves or wrists and instead take 290hitpoint adorns or one of the other useless adorns I already know they have no idea what they are doing. If you would of paid attention to this thread you would see I choose reuse on every slot i could because that is the difference of having a save up and not having it up. I do it because its the best DEFENSIVE choice even if its not the best offensive choice. So you talk about choices but first you have to learn how to even gear your toons talathion before you try to even comment.

Bruener

02-05-2012, 12:04 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.</blockquote>Give it up Gungo. Brawler avoidance = another healer. I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit. It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance. The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse. More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.</blockquote>First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.</blockquote>Gungo, what do you sacrifice for your avoidance?You don't have to sacrifice an off-hand slot.You don't have to sacrifice mitigation.You don't have to sacrifice healing.You don't have to sacrifice your damage.</blockquote>If you are talking crusader they get a a massive damage bonus for using the shield that makes thier damage comparable to duel wielding. Furthermore once you get into HM content spells have nearly 100% hit chance where melee hit rates plummet. For a bruiser my hit rates in drunder is 50%. Bruisers have ZERO strikethrough from AA's or buffs, unlike every other tank, but even a monk with nearly 100% strikethrough doesnt get much higher then 70% hit rates. If you are complaining about zerks. Ya i and everyone else in this thread admitted they need work.What is amazing is the minimal difference that large amount of strike through makes on hit rates. Really all our Fighters in raids are within a few % hit rates despite varying amount of +strike through. There is no way that Knights Stance even comes close to DW'ing for DPS. When they changed DW'ing to proc MA and AE and everything on both weapons it shot that out of the water. Its real simple to look at parses and see DW'ing a large amount more.Mitigation % as a stat is specifically a choice over other stats. Without investing heavily into mitigation % then a brawler comes no where near close to plate mitigation. Taking EVERY character trait for mit and having the best HM gear you can get for a brawler currently gives me 6680 mitigation for a whooping 61% mit vs a level 90 npc (not a 98 like every raid npc). So what does a brawler do to fix this he SACRIFICES the choice of accuracy, strikethrough, Multiatk, or block chance for mitigation % in jewerly, He takes the 6% mitigation warrune for the chest. With all the Mit % drunder HM jewerly and warrunes i can get at the SACRIFICE of those other stats i mentioned i get to 7140 mit or 62.9% (vs 90). Well below the 75% mit cap. Btw its not possible for any brawler to reach that cap vs a lvl 98 npc. You might be thinking the wrong expansion since mit % was FIXED in DOV and brawler got alot less mitigation since SF.First of all Brawlers were given a large mitigation boost in DoV. Second having mroe damage reduction means taking close to the same size hits as a Plate tank. Brawlers don't sacrifice jack to get +mitigation. It is on gear and you don't spec any mroe for it than that. Brawlers on the other hand get more out of +block chance due to ratio they get in uncontested avoidance per block chance compared to plates. Something that works out to a Brawler capping at 170 block chance versus a Plate at like 225. Yeah they fixed mit %, but than gave it all back to Brawlers on gear.Healing? Both Brawlers have 1 non reactive heal. You act like there is a heal gap with brawlers somewhere there. Take a look at a raid heal parse. You will see every plate tank but a guard higher on the heal parse.He is talking about if a Crusader put out the HPS that would equal what a Brawler gets from their extremely superior avoidance. Crusaders would not only need heal crits back but would also need a large boost to heals to show equivalent numbers. Something we know won't happen because it is OP'd. Hint, hint.As far as dps please see above on learning how to gear correctly I think it might help you, furthermore every monk in the world who maintanks should take stonecold over combat mastery. Combat mastery is our only real utility and only noticable dps choice we have rolled into one. And yet the reason they should take stonecold (and this is just my opinion) is because provokign stance is a 25% damage reduction and that alone is usually not enough to prevent them from dying, but STACKED with stonecold (15%) it gives them 2 saves combines into 40% reduction and can prevent any of the one shot hits for a set period of time. So if you want to tank its a noticable choice to survive as a maintank and afaik most monks who maintank do make the choice of either defensive buff in the heroic tree over Combat mastery.DPS since DoV has become a moot point for Fighters in general. Nobody cares about it. You bring T1 to do your DPS since they are going to push out 3x the numbers. Even so, Brawlers have not sacrificed their position near the top of Fighter DPS while given stupid defensive capabilities that shouldn't be their realm.You talk about choices but you honestly dont have a clue how to play a brawler. Because the biggest stat for ANY tank in DOV raids is not anything you mentioned. The biggest stat for any tank to survive in raids in DOV is reuse. Reuse is the difference between having yor stoneskin up and not for EVERY tank. And the biggest aggro buff in game is HATE GAIN %. Honestly when i see a tank complain about aggro or loose aggro from npcs and I see that they do not even use the 5% hate gain white adorns on thier gloves or wrists and instead take 290hitpoint adorns or one of the other useless adorns I already know they have no idea what they are doing. If you would of paid attention to this thread you would see I choose reuse on every slot i could because that is the difference of having a save up and not having it up. I do it because its the best DEFENSIVE choice even if its not the best offensive choice. So you talk about choices but first you have to learn how to even gear your toons talathion before you try to even comment.</blockquote>Since you can't seem to agree that some buffage needs to definitely happen to even get close to balance. Nerf already than.

Netty

02-05-2012, 01:44 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.</blockquote>Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.</blockquote>You do realize like nearly every zerker agrees you are the biggest reason zerkers are in the horrid shape they are in now.</blockquote>The Devs havent worked on class balance in years, I don't even know if they have one left working on it.Thats mostly why.</blockquote>They did have a small look at zerks. You if anyone should remeber since your spaming of BS stuff that dident need fixed or look at consumed the thread. I bet you if you dident post all the stupid ideas you have had over the years zerks would atleast have been abit better now. Dont try and blame it on the devs alone since you share a big slice of that aswell.

Talathion

02-05-2012, 03:27 AM

I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.Somethings wrong.Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed. Lol.And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.<img src="http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/934/58083329.png" />I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.

Boli32

02-05-2012, 09:53 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheShah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drona@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?</blockquote> <img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/4r739y.png" width="696" height="462" /></blockquote>There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.</blockquote>Although avoidance reports like this are highly miss-leading given the order which avoidance reports are worked out inFirst it checks against a clerics avoidanceThen it checks against a "brawlers" avoidance (or any tank with their avoidance on the MT)Then and only then does it check the MT's avoidance.It does not according to popular opinion check the MT's avoidance first before moving onto the others; this skews the avoidance in favour of the brawler who does the avoiding.That being said due to the way avoidance works plate tanks get one-shotted more than brawlers and very often brawlers can get higher or similar mitigation than a plate tank (even if both in defensive stance) simply due which healer buffs which can be cast on each tank. This shows how *close* the mitigation from both sets of tanks can be; so whatever advantage being a plate tank has is mitigated (no pun intended) by the addition of buffs and gear but the avboidance advantage is not... in fact it tends to be amplified - parry food/drink or not.I'm sorry but any brawler who thinks for a moment things are balanced is trying to hide the fact they know they are unbalanced and is desparately hoping not to get nerfed. Think every tuime you use your "oh fiddlesticks" button more than

Bruener

02-05-2012, 02:51 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>DoV content especially hardmode drunder is very ballanced. I have already given you two examples where using the SK prefered over other tanks. Mystikus Terrorwing the best combo is guard MT with SK OT. Tyrax Terrolus one mob with no adds and the SK is clearly the best MT for it. Asking for more than these to be custom tailored to the strengths of the SK is just being a PIG. </blockquote>BTW for those that have been following this thread this statement is completely false.Terrorwing - Brawlers are the best OTs since that is where the most damage is incoming to. Anybody can tank Terrorwing. Best set up realistically for this fight if you were trying to take the least amount of damage would be 3 Brawlers.Tyrax there is no reason not to use a Brawler or Guard to MT it. It is a total load trying to claim that SK is clearly the best tank for it. There is nothing that this encounter does that would warrant that. My guess is their SK is just better. It is yet again an encounter about which tank is going to take the least damage overall and have the best one hit prevention....go figure.

Talathion

02-05-2012, 03:28 PM

I wish we had a class balance developer...

Netty

02-05-2012, 08:39 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.Somethings wrong.Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed. Lol.And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.<img src="http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/934/58083329.png" />I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.</blockquote>And your point? If it was your changes that they took from and here we are and zerks are still the worst tank class in this expansion? You bombard every singel thread with so much BS that dont need to be fixed so the real ideas never got looked at. Only one thing that you where complaining about got in and that was casting speed of aoes.... Did we need it? NO. Some ppl had ideas of adding striketough and stuff to it but it all got over shadowed by your stupid ideas. As i said one of your ideas they did take but you posted like 999 that was just as bad. Ppl have been trying to get you away from this class for im not sure how long and its just a shame you play this class and trying to fit it in with your play style. You are the worst thing ever for the class so just give it up.As for your litle check there. I play my monk now but both the guard and the zerk are well geared aswell and you cant compare the mitigation in Dstance on the monk vs Ostance on the zerk. Again im not saying that the diff in mit is to small but im not going to lie about it as you do. The gap is to close aye but stick to the truth.

Talathion

02-05-2012, 08:51 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.Somethings wrong.Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed. Lol.And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.<img src="http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/934/58083329.png" />I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.</blockquote>And your point? If it was your changes that they took from and here we are and zerks are still the worst tank class in this expansion? You bombard every singel thread with so much BS that dont need to be fixed so the real ideas never got looked at. Only one thing that you where complaining about got in and that was casting speed of aoes.... Did we need it? NO. Some ppl had ideas of adding striketough and stuff to it but it all got over shadowed by your stupid ideas. As i said one of your ideas they did take but you posted like 999 that was just as bad. Ppl have been trying to get you away from this class for im not sure how long and its just a shame you play this class and trying to fit it in with your play style. You are the worst thing ever for the class so just give it up.As for your litle check there. I play my monk now but both the guard and the zerk are well geared aswell and you cant compare the mitigation in Dstance on the monk vs Ostance on the zerk. Again im not saying that the diff in mit is to small but im not going to lie about it as you do. The gap is to close aye but stick to the truth.</blockquote>Zerkers have a defensive stance?When?

Netty

02-05-2012, 08:55 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.Somethings wrong.Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed. Lol.And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.<img src="http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/934/58083329.png" />I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.</blockquote>And your point? If it was your changes that they took from and here we are and zerks are still the worst tank class in this expansion? You bombard every singel thread with so much BS that dont need to be fixed so the real ideas never got looked at. Only one thing that you where complaining about got in and that was casting speed of aoes.... Did we need it? NO. Some ppl had ideas of adding striketough and stuff to it but it all got over shadowed by your stupid ideas. As i said one of your ideas they did take but you posted like 999 that was just as bad. Ppl have been trying to get you away from this class for im not sure how long and its just a shame you play this class and trying to fit it in with your play style. You are the worst thing ever for the class so just give it up.As for your litle check there. I play my monk now but both the guard and the zerk are well geared aswell and you cant compare the mitigation in Dstance on the monk vs Ostance on the zerk. Again im not saying that the diff in mit is to small but im not going to lie about it as you do. The gap is to close aye but stick to the truth.</blockquote>Zerkers have a defensive stance?When?</blockquote>Does it matter that its junk? No... the monk can hold aggro in Dstance but compare the MIT should be done from the Dstance not from the Ostance to Dstance. That zerks tank even worse in Dstance has nothing to do with it. Since we should be able to do so and hold aggro and not lose 90% of the dps. We all know that you are stupid so just stop pls.

Gungo

02-06-2012, 01:58 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers have a defensive stance?When?</blockquote>We went over this before. Its the one you already claimed you never used and is still app1 in quality, its also the one that gives you 20% more mitigation. Furthermore your monk mit is a total lie. I have mostly drunder Hm gear and without mit% on gear my mit is lower then your example monk. You even just got called out as lying by another zerk.Go figure.

Gungo

02-06-2012, 02:04 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>DoV content especially hardmode drunder is very ballanced. I have already given you two examples where using the SK prefered over other tanks. Mystikus Terrorwing the best combo is guard MT with SK OT. Tyrax Terrolus one mob with no adds and the SK is clearly the best MT for it. Asking for more than these to be custom tailored to the strengths of the SK is just being a PIG. </blockquote>BTW for those that have been following this thread this statement is completely false.Terrorwing - Brawlers are the best OTs since that is where the most damage is incoming to. Anybody can tank Terrorwing. Best set up realistically for this fight if you were trying to take the least amount of damage would be 3 Brawlers.Tyrax there is no reason not to use a Brawler or Guard to MT it. It is a total load trying to claim that SK is clearly the best tank for it. There is nothing that this encounter does that would warrant that. My guess is their SK is just better. It is yet again an encounter about which tank is going to take the least damage overall and have the best one hit prevention....go figure.</blockquote>Terrorwing-You do realize the reason why the Sk is better on adds is the immunity to control effects and thier better unlinked aoe agro. Lets use for example the guild who world wide firsted this npc BEFORE the adds were nerfed. Surreal Sk tanked it with 10 npcs on him. Thier brawlers are pretty decent too. My guess is not other guilds tanks being better but your guilds shadowknight being worse.No clue on tyrax. Will tell you tomorrow.

Gungo

02-06-2012, 03:03 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is amazing is the minimal difference that large amount of strike through makes on hit rates. Really all our Fighters in raids are within a few % hit rates despite varying amount of +strike through. There is no way that Knights Stance even comes close to DW'ing for DPS. When they changed DW'ing to proc MA and AE and everything on both weapons it shot that out of the water. Its real simple to look at parses and see DW'ing a large amount more.According to ACT parses the auto atk damage is comparable. So yes knights stance does balance out compared to dual wielding. The difference is 100% proc buffs. Which is higher for dual wielding. Which I am fine with considering you ignored the fact that that SPELL HIT RATES ARE near 100%. YOU ALREADY ADMITTED SHADOWKNIGHTS benefit from near 100% hit rates on thier spells and EVERY OTHER tank relys on horrid hit rates on thier CA's. A good shadowknight can parse comparably to brawlers. AOE fights in drunder shadowknights are the HIGHEST PARSING FIGHTER. But wait this is bruener he wants to top the parses for ALL fighters in EVERY zone on EVERY ENCOUNTER. Then he will go and complain how his sk who is topping parses isnt tanking like a guard (or now monk). You dont know balance bruener and you expect EVERYTHING.First of all Brawlers were given a large mitigation boost in DoV. Second having mroe damage reduction means taking close to the same size hits as a Plate tank. Brawlers don't sacrifice jack to get +mitigation. It is on gear and you don't spec any mroe for it than that. Brawlers on the other hand get more out of +block chance due to ratio they get in uncontested avoidance per block chance compared to plates. Something that works out to a Brawler capping at 170 block chance versus a Plate at like 225. Yeah they fixed mit %, but than gave it all back to Brawlers on gear.Bruener and his lies and exhagerations. Brawlers in SF ( the expansion bruner claims was balanced) went from capping mitigation because of a broken % mit bug. To being 10% under cap vs lvl 98 npcs. Furthermore he claims brawlers got a large mit boost in DOV. The only MIT boost in dov is 780 mitigation added to our self buff. Gear mit is nearly identical to SF ( a few points higher for progression purposes). So 780 mit is now a large boost? Could you exhagerate anymore? Did you completely miss the point on how EVERY jewerly piece in game with mit % has an IDENTICAL match piece of jewerly without mit % but instead accuracy/strikethrough/multiatk. As a plate tank if you feel you dont need more mitigation you can always take the DPS choices. Sunshine you dont understand mechanics as a plate tank the amount of block chance you need depends on the quality(protection number) of your shield dived by your level.DPS since DoV has become a moot point for Fighters in general. Nobody cares about it. You bring T1 to do your DPS since they are going to push out 3x the numbers. Even so, Brawlers have not sacrificed their position near the top of Fighter DPS while given stupid defensive capabilities that shouldn't be their realm.Dont worry shadowknights are near the top as well and top out the fights in dps in drunder because they dont rely on crap hit rates for most of thier dps.</blockquote>Since you can't seem to agree that some buffage needs to definitely happen to even get close to balance. Nerf already than.</blockquote>I see you skipped out on the reply before this where you get called out on failing to know mechanics, But i digress. Where did i state other tanks dont need buffage. All i have stated is you act like shadowknights are broken like a zerker when inreality a GOOD shadowknight can and has tanked every npc in DOV. You dont know balance and you always try to overpower your class because its obvious you need the crutch since other shadowknights have tanked NPCs you have stated was impossible.Honestly bruener your lies are getting to be as bad as talathions.

BChizzle

02-06-2012, 03:17 AM

Its nice to agree with Gungo from time to time. Bruener and Talathion are pretty much the same person when it comes to understanding how this game works, I am glad to see you guys get along so well so we can all ignore whatever you say for garbage. Here is the truth despite the cries from certain people no brawlers are now maintanking but not the only main tank of choice, they are also not the off tank of choice, they are now simply an option which means SOE is doing a great job. But keep crying guys since your classes aren't the OP classes they used to be and you cant find a raid spot based on talent alone.

Soul_Dreamer

02-06-2012, 01:14 PM

As MT 90% of the time your 3 choices are Gaurdian/Monk/Bruiser.If you choose anything else you're actively choosing to make raiding substantially harder for your guild. That is the fact of the matter. Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.The saying "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" comes to mind.. sure you can, but you've made a stupid choice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />The only people argueing brawlers are balanced are Brawlers.. I'm a Guardian and I KNOW I MT content better than the 3 other plate tanks.The difference between my Guardian and my Monk??? I have to give things up to do it on my Guardian <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Why don't I play my Monk??? Personal preference and the fact that the things I have to give up don't detrimentally effect my raid force that much. Why don't I play my Paladin??? Because my Guardian and my Monk do EVERYTHING an MT needs to do, better.

Yimway

02-07-2012, 02:37 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.</blockquote>I'm so tired of this circular arguement.Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.

Boli32

02-08-2012, 08:04 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.</blockquote>I'm so tired of this circular arguement.Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.</blockquote>... but it should mean that defensive tanks should be more... well defensive.

Yimway

02-08-2012, 01:11 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>... but it should mean that defensive tanks should be more... well defensive.</blockquote>No arguements there. I've been pushing for changes regarding this for some time.On the flip side, might you also say it means offensive tanks shouldn't be quite so defensive? =)

Aull

02-08-2012, 02:30 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.</blockquote>I'm so tired of this circular arguement.Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.</blockquote>... but it should mean that defensive tanks should be more... well defensive.</blockquote>I agree with you both.Honestly when I rolled my zerker years ago I had an understanding that my zerker will not be able to take the punishment that a guardian could. That is the way it should be since my zerker was the more offensively inclined warrior. For the most part I could tank at least 90 percent of what a guard to do but there were areas of the game that a guardian outshined my zerker.I had no problems with that and still don't cause there was times that my zerker could outshine a guardian.A zerker should have never been given any defensive abilities that rivaled the guardians defense and still keep their offensive warrior status. That goes for all fighters in general.As Atan stated "Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally". Best statement I have read in some time.

Bruener

02-08-2012, 04:03 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.</blockquote>I'm so tired of this circular arguement.Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.</blockquote>Your right. So why are 3 of the Fighters owning every area that matters?Fighter DPS was made a joke in relation to raid-wide DPS, so it is a complete non-factor now.Agro for all fighters is reliant on having decent hate buffers and transfers and every Fighter can control agro on a mob(s) against a raid force.That leaves snap capability, sustainable damage taken, and one shot prevention.If these are going to be what tanking is all about like it seems to be than 3 of the Fighters shouldn't get all the tools to own these categories.Why is it the tanks that take the least damage overall also have the most snap capability and the most capability to avoid one shots? SOE has made tanking since DoV all about these 3 areas and have given plenty of tools to 3 of the Fighters to handle ALL situations while the other 3 end up lacking.Honestly, I would love to see them balance offensive and defensive better. First step would be to make being an Offensive Fighter really an offensive advantage for the raid. Something the game has always saw was Fighters able to push out real good numbers in raid situations. I remember KoS having a Zerk MT that would easily top the parse on AE content. This type of playstyle hung on until DoV where suddenly they decided to jack up DPS'ers to 3x what even an offensive Fighter could put out regularly. Meanwhile the gap between Offensive and Defensive Fighters is tiny.Regardless of how they end up really addressing the issue there are certain mechanics that definitely need to be addressed. Strike through immunity should not exist period. Mitigation gap needs to return to the levels they were prior to SF.

Aull

02-08-2012, 06:32 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I would love to see them balance offensive and defensive better. First step would be to make being an Offensive Fighter really an offensive advantage for the raid. Something the game has always saw was Fighters able to push out real good numbers in raid situations. I remember KoS having a Zerk MT that would easily top the parse on AE content. This type of playstyle hung on until DoV where suddenly they decided to jack up DPS'ers to 3x what even an offensive Fighter could put out regularly. Meanwhile the gap between Offensive and Defensive Fighters is tiny.Regardless of how they end up really addressing the issue there are certain mechanics that definitely need to be addressed. Strike through immunity should not exist period. Mitigation gap needs to return to the levels they were prior to SF.</blockquote>I think they should capitalize on the offensive warrior, brawler, crusader and defensive warrior, brawler, and crusader.I will agree with you that raid buffed fighter dps was an benefit up till dov. Even back in KoS, EoF, & RoK raid fighter dps wasn't the best but it wasn't in the gutter when compaired to t1 dps.I personally don't like strikethrough at all. For mobs or classes.

lostsandman

02-09-2012, 07:07 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.</blockquote>I'm so tired of this circular arguement.Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.</blockquote>Yes you are right that balance doesn't mean all the 6 fighter can do everything equally. The ideal situation is each fighter has a meaningful advantage in some area and a meaningful disadvantage in another area. The key word there is "meaningful". The advantage and disadvantage has to matter. It is not ok, if one fighter is the best flower picker in game since no one cares about fighters flower picking skill in a raid!Unfortunately 3 of the fighters can do the stuff that matters better than other 3 fighters. This is not balance. I subscribe to the view that SOE will never balance fighters so I have all 3 fighter archetypes. So this balance issue doesn't really affect me. Unfortunately not a lot of people have the time to level up 3 class and get the required AA. It sucks if you are one of those people with the wrong fighter class.<div></div>

Aull

02-09-2012, 11:15 AM

Good post. I think that the aa system needs some enhancements that allow fighter classes to step out just a little and not be pushed into just one role alone. Maybe an aa system that a player could cater their class into a play style they enjoy. This would allow those die hard tanking players an option to be just want they want as well as allowing others to be more utility or offense or even a combo if they desired that.I still think that six fighters all competing for just one spot is what is making this so called imbalance what it is.I agree with the "meaningful advantage and a meaningful disadvantage".

Darkonx

02-23-2012, 10:05 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is amazing is the minimal difference that large amount of strike through makes on hit rates. Really all our Fighters in raids are within a few % hit rates despite varying amount of +strike through. There is no way that Knights Stance even comes close to DW'ing for DPS. When they changed DW'ing to proc MA and AE and everything on both weapons it shot that out of the water. Its real simple to look at parses and see DW'ing a large amount more.According to ACT parses the auto atk damage is comparable. So yes knights stance does balance out compared to dual wielding. The difference is 100% proc buffs. Which is higher for dual wielding. Which I am fine with considering you ignored the fact that that SPELL HIT RATES ARE near 100%. YOU ALREADY ADMITTED SHADOWKNIGHTS benefit from near 100% hit rates on thier spells and EVERY OTHER tank relys on horrid hit rates on thier CA's. A good shadowknight can parse comparably to brawlers. AOE fights in drunder shadowknights are the HIGHEST PARSING FIGHTER. But wait this is bruener he wants to top the parses for ALL fighters in EVERY zone on EVERY ENCOUNTER. Then he will go and complain how his sk who is topping parses isnt tanking like a guard (or now monk). You dont know balance bruener and you expect EVERYTHING.First of all Brawlers were given a large mitigation boost in DoV. Second having mroe damage reduction means taking close to the same size hits as a Plate tank. Brawlers don't sacrifice jack to get +mitigation. It is on gear and you don't spec any mroe for it than that. Brawlers on the other hand get more out of +block chance due to ratio they get in uncontested avoidance per block chance compared to plates. Something that works out to a Brawler capping at 170 block chance versus a Plate at like 225. Yeah they fixed mit %, but than gave it all back to Brawlers on gear.Bruener and his lies and exhagerations. Brawlers in SF ( the expansion bruner claims was balanced) went from capping mitigation because of a broken % mit bug. To being 10% under cap vs lvl 98 npcs. Furthermore he claims brawlers got a large mit boost in DOV. The only MIT boost in dov is 780 mitigation added to our self buff. Gear mit is nearly identical to SF ( a few points higher for progression purposes). So 780 mit is now a large boost? Could you exhagerate anymore? Did you completely miss the point on how EVERY jewerly piece in game with mit % has an IDENTICAL match piece of jewerly without mit % but instead accuracy/strikethrough/multiatk. As a plate tank if you feel you dont need more mitigation you can always take the DPS choices. Sunshine you dont understand mechanics as a plate tank the amount of block chance you need depends on the quality(protection number) of your shield dived by your level.DPS since DoV has become a moot point for Fighters in general. Nobody cares about it. You bring T1 to do your DPS since they are going to push out 3x the numbers. Even so, Brawlers have not sacrificed their position near the top of Fighter DPS while given stupid defensive capabilities that shouldn't be their realm.Dont worry shadowknights are near the top as well and top out the fights in dps in drunder because they dont rely on crap hit rates for most of thier dps.</blockquote>Since you can't seem to agree that some buffage needs to definitely happen to even get close to balance. Nerf already than.</blockquote>I see you skipped out on the reply before this where you get called out on failing to know mechanics, But i digress. Where did i state other tanks dont need buffage. All i have stated is you act like shadowknights are broken like a zerker when inreality a GOOD shadowknight can and has tanked every npc in DOV. You dont know balance and you always try to overpower your class because its obvious you need the crutch since other shadowknights have tanked NPCs you have stated was impossible.Honestly bruener your lies are getting to be as bad as talathions.</blockquote>Brawlers are still incredibly god-like OP in comparison to every other tank. To a degree that it's mind-boggling how the entire SOE dev-team doesn't make it their #1 priority on a daily basis to fix.I've tanked everything on both, and believe me, BRAWLERS ARE BROKEN.

Talathion

02-27-2012, 12:47 AM

Wrong post...ignore.