Suggestions for bonuses running as Avatars vs Normal Char

[Pixiewrath]

<p>Since the player char dungeon maker is on test right now and people can run with their own characters, I have heard a lot about how easy it will be to plow through the dungeons. Even if they get tweaked, I think it's safe to say that they will still be more powerful than the DM avatars.And once this goes live I am a bit worried that people will stop using the DM avatars altogether.This made me think that maybe we should have two sepearate ways of gaining rewards depending on what kind of way we play.My suggestion is that <strong>when you play your normal character</strong>, you will get less tokens and exp in the dungeon but will have a chance of Mystic crates to drop. Instead of Treasured, Ornate and Exquisite, you get the chance to loot the three tiers of mystic crates instead. They should be really really rare, especially the highest tier ones.<strong>When playing as the avatars</strong>, like you do on live currently, you should instead get a bit more exp and dungeon marks, but forfeit the ability to loot chests. Maybe have the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">chance</span> to loot a spawner from the ran dungeon, or a completely random one, once you finish it in the reward window as well. These could be anything from boss spawners and normal spawners (rarely) to more common limited ones. (Provided we can actually tuck those away in the dungeon maker toolbox sometimes. Inventory overflow is not so nice.)My guess is that the reason we cannot loot currently is because avatars cant loot chests due to being mind controlled. And doing this would allow us to choose.Gambling a bit with our real characters, or run with avatars to get a steadier income of tokens but with no chance of rarer stuff dropping.This would let people have an incentive to run both as avatars and their chars instead of only making one the favourite and the other completely forgotten.Also, the drop rates in normal character dungeons as well as token bonuses while using avatars should increase with amount of players doing the dungeons. A 6 group dungeon is way harder than running solo with a tank or healer.Anyone like this suggestion?</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>The intent of the avatars was to make it so people of all levels could enjoy the DM. If a new player with poor gear wants to do the DM they can with an avatar. It's not that they made DM, people demanded characters be usable so they plan on 'tacking on' that feature. They said they planned for player characters to be used all along, they simply wanted to get the feature out sooner instead of delaying it further.</p><p>If they were 'penalties' levied against people using player characters in DM I would suspect you would see only a slight spike in usage when released and then back to what it is now.</p><p>I'm curious as to why you are worried people would stop using the avatars. A person using a player character instead of a avatar has no impact on anyone else.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>Not true.First of all there is no real incentive for grouping today other than the fun factor as harder mobs dont give better exp or tokens.Secondly, yes it will impact the playerbase as since the devs have stated that chars cannot team with avatars at the moment, and no mention of it happening in the future either, this will make it hard to find groups with avatars if people run with their chars or vice versa.Having different rewards for different playstyles will encourage people to play both ways.Noone is punished as you said by playing one or the other, they only receive rewards in different ways.Remember that player chars are way more powerful than avatars, thus completing the dungeons faster, and it would make sense to adjust the token awards to that as well. Having the chest drops vs spawner awards is to boost the funfactor as most people today agree that dungeoning is a bit boring due to the lack of real drops. That is one of the two (the other being not using your char live) main reasons I have seen people avoiding the dungeon maker.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Grouping a DM results in faster runs and kill harder opponenets which means more tokens for time. That's the incentive. Just like regular grouping.Since people can run with both types, the amount of grouping will only go up. Someone running an all avatar group?: take an avatar. Running a PC group?: use your character. It's that easy.The whole concept of 'encouraging' people to play both ways is distasteful to me. Like you stated one problem with it being used is people can't use their PC characters. Unless the avatar rewards are insanely better then PC ones, there is NO WAY you are going to get these same people to play avatar characters. Being able to play player characters isn't going to be some 'gateway' into avatar characters. I assume your worry is that people who play a lot now with avatars will switch over.I shouldn't have to play both ways to get all I can out of DM. If there are rewards I can't get without playing an avatar I just simply won't have anything to do with the DM. Not only that using my player character SHOULD result in better rewards. Anyone can just pick up an avatar, you actually have to work on your player character. If my player character can't get rewards faster than an avatar what's the point of allowing player characters at all? I'm not saying player characters should get the same amount of tokens for a run, but if it's only slightly more effecient I'm again forced to wonder why even allow player characters?</p>

[Grumble69]

<p>Avatars bite the big one.  There shouldn't be any incentive to using them and their whopping four buttons.  The whole idea needs to be chunked in the trash can.  And then set the trash can on fire and crush it with a steam roller.  ...it was an aweful idea.</p><p>Move on to normal chars please.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Grouping a DM results in faster runs and kill harder opponenets which means more tokens for time. That's the incentive. Just like regular grouping.<strong>Not true. A 6 man run takes considerably more time than a 1 man run. Been there, done that. Some mobs even go epic in 6 man group and those take a lot of time to finish of. When you play alone you just spank and tank and then you are done. When playing in group it's essentially the same but divided among individuals, and since not everyone play DPS classes, the dmg / sec goes down considerably. You cannot kill an epic boss mob in a 6 group without 1 or 2 healers if mob is correctly buffed. Every run I made so far in a 6 player group takes about 20-40% longer than soloing does. The most efficient I have found is 2-man grouping since mobs don't seem to scale much when duoing.</strong>I shouldn't have to play both ways to get all I can out of DM. If there are rewards I can't get without playing an avatar I just simply won't have anything to do with the DM. Not only that using my player character SHOULD result in better rewards. Anyone can just pick up an avatar, you actually have to work on your player character. If my player character can't get rewards faster than an avatar what's the point of allowing player characters at all? I'm not saying player characters should get the same amount of tokens for a run, but if it's only slightly more effecient I'm again forced to wonder why even allow player characters?<strong>Variation?And yes, you should have to play both ways. Just like there are grouping and raids, there should be characters vs avatars since they are so vastly different.</strong></p></blockquote>

[Neiloch]

<p>How are grouping and raids ANYTHING like playing with an avatar and playing with a player character? I don't have to group so I can raid so why should I have to play an avatar to get all I can out of playing a PC?</p><p>You have no justification for saying people SHOULD have to play as both other than you think so. It's a matter of preference on how to play the same exact dungeon, it shouldn't be split into two different tiers of content or some other silly nonsense.</p>

[Elskidor]

<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avatars bite the big one.  There shouldn't be any incentive to using them and their whopping four buttons.  The whole idea needs to be chunked in the trash can.  And then set the trash can on fire and crush it with a steam roller.  ...it was an aweful idea.</p><p>Move on to normal chars please.</p></blockquote><p>LOL. So true though. I've tried this garbage feature twice and it feels like a punishment. It's right up there as bad as Dungeon Finder or whatever, but maybe using your own characters might make it appealing...or perhaps it'll always blow chunks regardless.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p><cite>Meube@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avatars bite the big one.  There shouldn't be any incentive to using them and their whopping four buttons.  The whole idea needs to be chunked in the trash can.  And then set the trash can on fire and crush it with a steam roller.  ...it was an aweful idea.</p><p>Move on to normal chars please.</p></blockquote><p>LOL. So true though. I've tried this garbage feature twice and it feels like a punishment. It's right up there as bad as Dungeon Finder or whatever, but maybe using your own characters might make it appealing...or perhaps it'll always blow chunks regardless.</p></blockquote><p>Yes they do, and that is the reason why we need an incentive to play as them as adding 10 more abilities to each and make them funnier to play seem to be beyond reality's grasp.I don't think I am gonna run any avatars after player chars go live because I also find them boring to play. If something isn't done to encourage avatar play, noone will run them anymore aside from as a "fun thing" now and then. Or boring thing maybe is more proper. But still...</p><p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How are grouping and raids ANYTHING like playing with an avatar and playing with a player character? I don't have to group so I can raid so why should I have to play an avatar to get all I can out of playing a PC?</p><p>You have no justification for saying people SHOULD have to play as both other than you think so. It's a matter of preference on how to play the same exact dungeon, it shouldn't be split into two different tiers of content or some other silly nonsense.</p></blockquote><p>You ave no justification telling me it shouldn't be that way either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Debz]

<p>With the dungeon avatar's having only 4 things, most of the time 2-3 things that are actualy being used, it isnt enough when we're all used to useing a few hot bars filled with spells. IDK who thought that would be fun (at first it was) but not being able to do much doesnt help a whole lot when it comes to a 6 person group that takes over a hour to do a zone.</p><p>3 fighters 2 scouts and a healer. one fighter would pull a cluster (3 mobs really close) and would die if gets hit 4-5 times (or more i forget) before a heal can get off. recast on the healer for heals is just to slow for it</p><p>imo normal char's shouldnt be added. just have the avatar be a bit better then the things it's killing. yeah i see that we are being creatures we kill to be the avatar. but it's fun looking like them. just like the arena thing in Maj Dul. Don't see anyone useing that now. If people get to play their own char's then all the avatar's are gonna be worthless if nothing makes them worth while useing</p>

[Sapperlight]

<p>I agree that once player characters are allowed into the DM zones, the avatars will be obsolete. There will be no incentive to use them whatsoever. While perhaps a bit underpowered, the nice thing about avatars is that it allowed for the designers to balance the system with archetypes. The dungeon crawl became more methodical and in doing so, you could take time to enjoy the effort (or lack thereof) of the designer. With PCs, it will become simply a case of blasting through the zone as quickly as possible for tokens.</p><p>In the end, this appears to be what SOE wants, as seemingly every decision they have made with DM has pushed toward the token grind and away from role-playing and actual design.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Sapperlight wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that once player characters are allowed into the DM zones, the avatars will be obsolete. There will be no incentive to use them whatsoever. While perhaps a bit underpowered, the nice thing about avatars is that it allowed for the designers to balance the system with archetypes. The dungeon crawl became more methodical and in doing so, you could take time to enjoy the effort (or lack thereof) of the designer. With PCs, it will become simply a case of blasting through the zone as quickly as possible for tokens.</p><p>In the end, this appears to be what SOE wants, as seemingly every decision they have made with DM has pushed toward the token grind and away from role-playing and actual design.</p></blockquote><p>If people want to roleplay, they will. But if people don't want to, they won't. You can't FORCE people into a style of play, this is what I have been trying to say. If people don't want to play avatars they simply won't do it. At most they will and hate every minute of it and I seriously doubt they will be enjoying the RP dungeons people put together in such a state. Coming up with incentives to play avatars when those same people are admittedly saying they are bad boggles my mind. Why on earth would you want people to be encouraged to play a bad feature?</p><p>This isn't work people. We should be able to play any way we want while having fun and getting the most out of it. "The system is all around boring but it has good rewards!" - this is the short explanation of a real life job. If a feature is both boring and lacking in rewards the solution isn't to increase incentives, the solution is to make it MORE FUN or ditch it all together.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>Isn't incentives the same thing as a fun factor?If something lack an incentive it becomes boring. Gear in normal dungeons is one good incentive. House items another. Just as well as they add double sc/exp weekends sometimes etc... It's all about incentives.That being said, I am definitely not suggesting avatars are left the way they are. They definitely need to be nerfed with more spells each to make them appealing.As it is now only tanks and priests are playable, but scouts and mage class avatars die on the spot. Not enough DPS to compensate for lack in defense or healing abilities.And just pressing 1-2 buttons over and over is really boring. It's more of a chore.With my incentives to increase their respective play values I am not taking anything away from anyone.People with avatars can still buy mystic boxes using their tokens.People who play their chars can still loot spawners in world or buy from market/broker.It's just giving a bit more spice so both don't feel the same.Avatars shouldnt be boring and real chars overpowered. And it shouldn't feel like you are doing the same thing over and over.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Pixiewrath@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Isn't incentives the same thing as a fun factor?If something lack an incentive it becomes boring. Gear in normal dungeons is one good incentive. House items another. Just as well as they add double sc/exp weekends sometimes etc... It's all about incentives.</p></blockquote><p>No. Incentives isn't the same thing as fun factor.</p><p>Good games aren't built around some random, boring repetitive task then giving rewards for them. The act on it's own should be fun (thus providing its own incentive to play it) with rewards being incentives for playing in such a way to achieve goals. Do the fun thing properly to get rewards to do more fun things. People want their characters playable because playing their characters is MORE FUN. Not so they can just farm more efficiently. I don't deny there are probably people who want to use PC's just to get more tokens, but you have already seen several players talk about avatars being boring and there PC characters being more fun. Avatars were boring from the start.</p><p><cite>Pixiewrath@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That being said, I am definitely not suggesting avatars are left the way they are. They definitely need to be nerfed with more spells each to make them appealing.</p></blockquote><p>Nerfed with more spells? What? Don't you mean buffed? Unless you are suggesting they be made weaker but have more spells, but I doubt it. Giving rewards so people will play the less fun thing is silly. They need to make avatars themselves fun FIRST. Anything else is a waste of time and if they don't plan on making them more fun then they need to ditch them entirely. Piling on more incentives so people will voluntarily take part in a boring aspect of gameplay has got to be one of the more useless things I have ever heard of.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>I have never said they shouldn't make avatars more fun to play.And yes, I mean nerf as in making spells weaker but adding more spells. Like our own chars.Imagine playing a warlock only having a plaguebringer spell dealing 200.000 dmg on first hit and 500.000 in dots without critting or using crit bonus, one rooting spell for encounter, one null caress and one buff doing everything all buffs do currently, and then run the game using only those four spells. Bad. Really bad.The avatars themselves isn't the problem, but the fact that they have too powerful and / or weak spells and too few of them is.Tanks and priests can survive a lot. Rouge and mage avatars cannot. The rogues don't have any tactical options in stunning and so on whatsoever, and mage avatars cannot root and debuff in an efficient way to make them fun to play. Their damage isn't near enough to compensate for the extra HP of a tank or the infinite-ish healing of a priest.There IS a change needed to balance avatars, and make them funnier to play.But there IS also something needed to encourage both playstyles.In the "real" game you can choose to solo, group, raid, tradeskill, quest etc. for different kinds of rewards.And so it should be in Dungeon Maker or else people get tired in the long run.</p>