Apprentice Food and Drinks (Minus Reactants)

[Kuulei]

<p><span>This is currently nice, but I am not sure how all the other crafters will react to this. Sure everyone will benefit as they dont have to use reactants for this, but there may be some animosity with outcries that if provisoners dont have to use reactants.. why should the other crafters have to.<p>This is a hard decision for the dev team to make in my opinion.</p><p>Personally I think it should require something and I think that something, should be the dusts. I know, I know, the dusts are byproducts to help with the fact that fewer and fewer are needing MC spells and the market is desperate for reasonably-priced dusts for poisons and potions.</p><p>To fix that, perhaps the by-product of making items from reactants, give 10 dusts, rather than 2. Then the provisioner recipes require say 2 dusts per combine. Win win for all? More dusts for the market for poisons, potions and food and drinks with not too much of an uproar from other crafters?</p><p>Just my 2 coppers on this matter and I am a provisioner and I do have 8 other crafters on test. I also have 9 level 90 crafters on Everfrost and some lower ones scattered other places on live! So I am looking at this from more than just the provisoner's point of view and trying to look at it as a non-provisoner as well.</p><p>I wanted to add a poll to this but it appears its disabled in this forum.  I do however want to hear your feedbacks on this!</p></span></p>

[Cloudrat]

<p><cite>Kuulei wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span>This is currently nice, but I am not sure how all the other crafters will react to this. Sure everyone will benefit as they dont have to use reactants for this, but there may be some animosity with outcries that if provisoners dont have to use reactants.. why should the other crafters have to.<p>This is a hard decision for the dev team to make in my opinion.</p><p>Personally I think it should require something and I think that something, should be the dusts. I know, I know, the dusts are byproducts to help with the fact that fewer and fewer are needing MC spells and the market is desperate for reasonably-priced dusts for poisons and potions.</p><p>To fix that, perhaps the by-product of making items from reactants, give 10 dusts, rather than 2. Then the provisioner recipes require say 2 dusts per combine. Win win for all? More dusts for the market for poisons, potions and food and drinks with not too much of an uproar from other crafters?</p><p>Just my 2 coppers on this matter and I am a provisioner and I do have 8 other crafters on test. I also have 9 level 90 crafters on Everfrost and some lower ones scattered other places on live! So I am looking at this from more than just the provisoner's point of view and trying to look at it as a non-provisoner as well.</p><p>I wanted to add a poll to this but it appears its disabled in this forum.  I do however want to hear your feedbacks on this!</p></span></p></blockquote><p>I think it was a good move and should be left alone now<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It is a consumble product of short duration that requires research to be able to make.</p>

[Finora]

<p>I'm inclined to agree with Cloudrat on this.</p><p>The food & drink has a short duration & the buffs they provide are not that big in the grand scheme of things, especially when compared to the things all the other crafters can make.</p>

[Kreton]

<p>It produces 20 per combine, is tradable, requires only common raws to make, and is pretty much the best food/drink stats.  The fact you have to research it once, in order to make it, is inconsequential.  You'll eventually end up with them flooding the market with both how cheap it is to make and the bulk in which you can make it.  This needs to require a rare of some sort or be made heirloom.</p>

[Daalilama]

<p><cite>Kreton wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It produces 20 per combine, is tradable, requires only common raws to make, and is pretty much the best food/drink stats.  The fact you have to research it once, in order to make it, is inconsequential.  You'll eventually end up with them flooding the market with both how cheap it is to make and the bulk in which you can make it.  <strong>This needs to require a rare of some sort or be made heirloom.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I may somewhat agree with the crafting rare part of your argument the heirloom part is a fix in search of a problem.  Provis recipies have been like this for quite some time as such making them heirloom would make them not get produced except for ones account....</p>

[Senya]

<p>I'm really indifferent to the food/drink situation as long as it doesn't require a reactant.  I thought using reactants for a stack of 30min food/drink was a bit much, at least in T9.  I'm fine with those recipes using all common materials or fine if they require a rare.</p><p>I also thought a good idea would be for all the researched recipe items to create a by-product(x2), like they do now, except instead of the Ethereal Dust, call it something like Colossal Dust or Humming Dust.  The food/drink could then use one of those by-products as the primary component.  It would keep the food and drink less common than the common stuff, but not quite as rare and expensive as using up a reactant because it's created every time someone makes one of the other items. </p><p>Maybe later there could be researched recipes for alchemist potions, furniture, appearance rings for jewelers, and other assorted items or consumables that would also make use of these by-products. </p><p>I for one would love my carpenter to actually make furniture again.  I'm a little tired of my carpenter making earrings and symbols and my provi making charms and belts.  I really shouldn't have to look at a spreadsheet to figure out what each of my tradeskillers make from GU to GU.</p>

[Xianthia]

<p>I don't like the idea (unless I'm misunderstanding your suggestion) that then the provisioner is held at the "mercy" of other crafters in order to create their items.</p><p>Maybe 20 for each combine is a bit high, so maybe adjust that.  As to being heirloom, we already have those faction heirloom foods we can make (forget the name but they make the 20 per stack item).</p>

[Felshades]

<p>20 food or drink that last 30 min each for 1600p or whatever the reactants go for on your server(last I looked the other night was 1600 on broker, people are still asking 1k+ in auction) is RIDICULOUS.</p><p>NO ONE in their right mind will use the level 90 stuff. The level 80 reactants drop like candy in the meantime...</p>

[Finora]

<p>On further thought, if they wanted to require a rare or something otherwise obtainable without having to depend on the availablity of products from other crafters (dusts and such) and double or triple the number of raws required now on test, I could get behind that. Provisioners have been asking for rare recipes for many years now anyway. =)</p><p>The reactant was just WAY too much to be asking people to use for food. There are still people out there that don't use food/drink at all.</p>

[Cyliena]

<p>I'm happy that there is going to be no reactant requirement. I wasn't even going to bother continuing research with my Provisioner's apprentice until I saw that.</p><p>If the reactants were required again, the only thing I'd be happy with is if the recipes were changed to produce permanent food/drink (as in never consumed). Otherwise it would just be ridiculous to expect provi's to make short duration food/drink for ultra-rare components.</p><p>But IMO keep what they're doing, no reactants mmkay? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Gaealiege]

<p>The problem is the usual for Sony.  We go from one end of the spectrum to an SOE style nerf that takes you to the opposite end of it.  It's as if Sony doesn't know what a "moderate" change is.</p><p>While requiring a colossal seems excessive, these foods shouldn't be creatable with common harvests.  They should require a normal rare or at least dust.  Having this require normal components took it from "wow that's an amazing food I'd like to have" to every single player on the server using these to the absolute neglect of others regardless of level.</p><p>It's sad that much like the players who hold extreme views, Sony makes extreme changes often.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>On further thought, if they wanted to require a rare or something otherwise obtainable without having to depend on the availablity of products from other crafters (dusts and such) and double or triple the number of raws required now on test, I could get behind that. Provisioners have been asking for rare recipes for many years now anyway. =)</p><p>The reactant was just WAY too much to be asking people to use for food. There are still people out there that don't use food/drink at all.</p></blockquote><p>As a provisioner, I do not want a rare recipe. I want to be able to make my own stuff, on demand, on my own time, not hunt down some rare component for it or rely on another crafter for it.</p><p>I also do not want everyone and their mom that finds out I'm a provisioner begging me to make them their food. Apparently certain types of food are rare stock on the broker and I get at least one idiot a week begging me to make him stuff.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is the usual for Sony.  We go from one end of the spectrum to an SOE style nerf that takes you to the opposite end of it.  It's as if Sony doesn't know what a "moderate" change is.</p><p>While requiring a colossal seems excessive, these foods shouldn't be creatable with common harvests.  They should require a normal rare or at least dust.  Having this require normal components took it from "wow that's an amazing food I'd like to have" to every single player on the server using these to the absolute neglect of others regardless of level.</p><p>It's sad that much like the players who hold extreme views, Sony makes extreme changes often.</p></blockquote><p>Dust perhaps. PERHAPS.</p><p>I had planned on stocking my guild bank with this stuff for raids. Depleting our dust stock(our guild provides potions and poisons for raiders) on food would yank some cranks of some people because we have no requirement to put dusts in there from making experts. Which is the dust you get. And they sell for a ton.</p>

[Gaealiege]

<p>Do they sell for as much as a colossal?</p>

[MadTexan]

<p>The food and drink from the TS researcher are better than anything we've seen so far.</p><p>Think back of what materials people (probably mainly raiders) needed for their food or drink if they wanted to use the "best option" for their class: seed of growth from Emerald halls trash mobs, fresh pomegranate from Shard of Love, fearstalker meat (which wasn't so common till the guild hall harvester finally would bring them), magma fish. There was effort involved in obtaining those materials in the first place. The materials - when sold via the broker - had value.</p><p>Requiring dusts for TS researched food and drink would be a valid option and may make the lower tier dusts more valuable. However it might unbalance the supply and demand in T9, making MC potions and poisons extremely costly as a result. Also, using dusts for my food and drink sounds just as yummy as using loams or metal clusters to craft provisions.</p><p>My suggestion are the DoV harvested raws - meat, fish, flowers. The amount needed for each combine should depend on the tier of the recipe.</p><p>I'm aware that for instance a lvl23 provisioner (pure crafter) does not have the harvesting skill to harvest these DoV raws. That's the only flaw. Wish there would be "exclusive" nodes and harvested materials in each tier. </p><p>If researched food and drink should be slightly more exclusive, it can be made heirloom (but able to be commissioned). Since one combine results in a stack of 20, it's acceptable in my opinion to have a provisioner craft it via commissioning if you don't have a prov on your own account.</p>

[Gaealiege]

<p>I'd agree to commissioned heirloom in lieu of a real rare.</p>

[Drusi]

<p>What about using those other potions we get as awards from the apprentices? You can choose to use them boost progress (or whatever) or choose to use them to make food. Provisioners can get them themselves by doing apprentice tasks, so they aren't dependent on the other classes. Since they are no trade, provisioners won't be able to buy up 293874 of them from the broker to make stacks and stacks of food at a time.</p>

[Mermut]

<p>All other heirloom food is non-commisionable. I think making people spend 15 days (minus time reducers) to learn to make food that they can only use for their own toons would be excessive. The food is a bit of an upgrade over the other faction food recipes that are considered 'raid food/drink', but not hugely so. Upping the number of materials used, maybe adding in the need to use some semi-rares, would make sense, however, since it IS better food and you make 20 per combine.</p><p>I wish they'd increase the amount of food we make per combine anyway. the 20 combines my provisioner needs to make a full stack of food and full stack of drink always feels way more tedious to me then the 20 combines my woodworker needs to fill a spotted quiver.</p>

[Mizlek]

<p>Why not just make a harvestable rare food item out of the existing shrubs/fish nodes?</p><p>And please don't increase the number of foods from a combine. It's fine right now. It works. Don't "fix" it.</p><p>-Miz</p>

[MadTexan]

<p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All other heirloom food is non-commisionable. </p></blockquote><p>That's why  I said "heirloom BUT able to be commissioned (to a customer)".</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Commissioning is a terrible system and should never be made part of a consumeable, let alone rapidly consumeable, resource.</p><p>The Hua Mein food and drink is still holding it's pricing EXTREMELY well, and there is no reason to believe that this stuff will be any different.</p>

[MadTexan]

<p>Hua mein food has a stable broker price because 1 combine yields 2 pieces, and not a stack of 20.</p><p>I have a provisioner almost since I started playing this game years ago and while I like crafting a lot, making food and drink is so boring cause it's repetitive. So boring that I only craft the "good stuff" for one of the toons I raid on.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I don't think stack size is in any way relevant.</p><p>Hua Mein holds it's value because it is the best food / drink you can get and because it is gated behind a faction grind.</p><p>Frankly, crafting has an immense need for a "Mass Production" AA endline.  For 25% additional raw material / fuel, you can make 10 times the product in one combine.</p>

[MadTexan]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Frankly, crafting has an immense need for a "Mass Production" AA endline.  For 25% additional raw material / fuel, you can make 10 times the product in one combine.</p></blockquote><p>I can only support that. Conservation of mass is rather unuseful for artisans that craft mainly consumables. I'd trade it anytime for a "multicraft" ability.</p>

[ratbast]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think <span style="color: #ff0000;">stack size is in any way relevant</span>.</p><p>Hua Mein holds it's value because it is the best food / drink you can get and because it is gated behind a faction grind.</p><p>Frankly, crafting has an <span style="color: #ff0000;">immense need for a "Mass Production" AA endline</span>.  For 25% additional raw material / fuel, you can make 10 times the product in one combine.</p></blockquote><p>I believe your post contradicts itself.</p>

[GrunEQ]

<p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif; font-size: small;">As a provisioner I would rather we keep the reactants and make food & drink that lasts a long time with good stats.  If it's going to be rare, have the benefits be rare like a stack of 20 that last 10 hours each with some nice stats.  Then provisioners could be doing what they are suppose to be doing..making food and drink and have items that are worth a rare ingrediant.</span></p>

[bootch]

<p>didnt read all the post sorry but my 2cp</p><p>one option would be a reactant breakdown into a new mat (say x10)</p><p>this new mat would be the mat needed for the food/drink combination</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I believe your post contradicts itself.</p></blockquote><p>That is because you read only that post.  The first two parts were in response to someone saying that stack size was the reason Hua Mein food was holding it's (extremely) high value well.  I disagreed with that and still do.</p><p>The second part was merely a thought on how mechanically tradeskilling is becoming a real burden in EQ2.  Pressing 4/5/6 for 30 minutes isn't exciting, fun or challenging.  It's a chore.  Unfortunately, it's necessary.  I think mass production would help alleviate that.</p>

[Whilhelmina]

<p>My 2 coppers:</p><ul><li>I don't want reactants used for food</li><li>I think just a couple of common mats is not a good idea</li><li>I would prefer a dust to be used, so the food doesn't flood the market.</li><li>If dust is used, the number of dusts obtained as byproducts for other researched recipes should be upped from 2 to 10 to compensate the higher number of dusts used.</li></ul>

[Xianthia]

<p>I'm guessing this isn't supposed to be on live yet but it is partially on live.  The drinks do not have a reactant requirement and ask for a liquid, but none of the liquids I tried actually are accepted (e.g. milk, aerated water, someone suggested using canine saliva because long ago it was used in some drinks).</p><p>The food portion still requires the reactant.</p><p>Also the combine totals are off, one will make 20, other makes 100... so again, guessing this wasn't supposed to go live yet <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Katz]

<p>The food and drink only lasts 30 minutes.  If it takes a rare or a dust I won't make it.   Whatever is decided will determine if I make it or not.  I really don't care if its heirloom as I don't make food and drink for the broker anyhow. </p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Katz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The food and drink only lasts 30 minutes.  If it takes a rare or a dust I won't make it.   Whatever is decided will determine if I make it or not.  I really don't care if its heirloom as I don't make food and drink for the broker anyhow. </p></blockquote><p>For 30 minute duration I won't make it either. Waste of time and dusts.</p>

[Khurghan]

<p><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'd agree to commissioned heirloom in lieu of a real rare.</p></blockquote><p>^^ This.</p>

[EverfrostShee]

<p>It seems to me that you all are missing the obvious.  Change the duration to five hours, require the root rare of the food/drink level.  Problem solved, and it keeps in line with other drinks with good stats like the growth's ambrosia.</p>

[Indabuff]

<p>The fact is that if it does not require anything but regular mats then the market will be gutted with them andthey will retain no value. I also think pumping them up in time more than say an hour would also be a mistake.They should be harder to produce, and doing so keeps up their value. My vote is to require a rare to make themI would like to have something that my provisioner can sell that has some value.</p>

[gatrm]

<p>A lot of you seem focused on the stack size of 20.  That is immaterial.  It could just as easily have a 5 hour duration and be a stack of 2....and it would last just as long...</p><p>20 @ 30 min duration = 600 minutes</p><p>2 @ 5 hour duration = 600 minutes.  </p><p>Don't say "OH LOOKY!! It makes a stack of 20, it should require a rare".....If it is appreciably better than the standard fare, then perhaps it should require a semi-rare, but certainly not the reactants.  There is no reason to make it heirloom.</p>

[Vixey]

<p>What about giving the rare roots a new use we get them harvesting enough food resources anyway so why not use them as the rare needed to make the stack of food.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Perhaps use either a dust or the imbue materials of the appropriate tier (crafter option, in other words, either of those two would fulfill the requirements).  If you do that however, the duration needs to be 5 hours.  For 30 minute food, it needs to be common materials.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>EverfrostShee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It seems to me that you all are missing the obvious.  Change the duration to five hours, require the root rare of the food/drink level.  Problem solved, and it keeps in line with other drinks with good stats like the growth's ambrosia.</p></blockquote><p>If I remember right the ambrosia is only stats.</p><p>This stuff's stats and an effect, like the reductions that no one uses. Probably because of the duration. Which is 30 minutes.</p><p>I noticed the non reactant using drinks(live, that don't work) make 1-100 it seems.. but the food was unchanged(which also doesn't work last I saw).</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Indabuff wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The fact is that if it does not require anything but regular mats then the market will be gutted with them andthey will retain no value.</p><p>I also think pumping them up in time more than say an hour would also be a mistake.They should be harder to produce, and doing so keeps up their value.</p><p>My vote is to require a rare to make themI would like to have something that my provisioner can sell that has some value.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think you will see as much profit that you hope would happen if AoD items are forced annoyingly scarce, because if something is desirable and is being gouged on the broker, more players will simply grind a Provie up (if they haven't already) and research the item themselves to save a ton of money on consumables.</p><p>This cost saving effort is no different than rangers rolling a WW to save arrow costs, or scouts rolling an Alchie to save on poison costs - broker gouging simply hastens their efforts to bypass profiteers.</p><p>At best, you'll have a limited time before you are made irrelevant by former marks bypassing you once again.</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Mizlek]

<p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This stuff's stats and an effect, like the reductions that no one uses. Probably because of the duration. Which is 30 minutes.</p></blockquote><p>My provisioner sells enough infusions/reductions to keep himself busy. I don't know who's buying, raiders I've always assumed, but someone is.</p><p>-Miz</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Mizlek wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felshades wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This stuff's stats and an effect, like the reductions that no one uses. Probably because of the duration. Which is 30 minutes.</p></blockquote><p>My provisioner sells enough infusions/reductions to keep himself busy. I don't know who's buying, raiders I've always assumed, but someone is.</p><p>-Miz</p></blockquote><p>We have an entire tab of them in my raid guild's bank and no one uses them.</p><p>I do however chuckle at the ones with wis and dodge, or int and dodge...</p>

[ectheleon1]

<p>Food/fishing already does give a rare, its the Imbueing Reagent....  could simply put that in, it would give multiple tiers more use, as ethereal powders are selling for 1silver on most servers.... it gives them a use and would generate income for harvesters, and not trivialize all other food stuffs.</p>

[ectheleon1]

<p>Ethereal materials* Not powders.</p>

[Gaealiege]

<p>Most high end raiders use reductions and infusions.  These are a superior version.  The 30 minute duration argument is laughable.  Every single raider in the game will be using these unless they're just a complete imbecile. </p><p>I won't use a food or drink that gives 2% potency because of 30 minute duration! lol....well the good players will be.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Most high end raiders use reductions and infusions.  These are a superior version.  The 30 minute duration argument is laughable.  Every single raider in the game will be using these unless they're just a complete imbecile. </p><p>I won't use a food or drink that gives 2% potency because of 30 minute duration! lol....well the good players will be.</p></blockquote><p>I will. If it doesnt use a rare.</p><p>If it does... hell no.</p>

[Hardain]

<p>It will sell even if it uses a rare.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Faceless@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It will sell even if it uses a rare.</p></blockquote><p>That doesn't mean I'll buy it. Or make it.</p>