Build your own dungeons - what is the skinny?

[Kraag]

<p>Excited to hear about these from Beta.  Love decorating, and always wanted player generated quests, so this is a new feature I have been eagerly awaiting.</p><p>So spill folks, how was it?</p><p>Are they big?  All cave-like?  Any in buildings?  Mobs fun?</p>

[yohann koldheart]

<p>decorate ur own dungoen, earn tokens  for running them. spend tokens on mostly fluff.</p><p>the armor you buy with the tokens is glass, so it cant be repaired.</p><p>its mainly a feature for those that love to decorate houses, and guild halls.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>DYOD is a complete letdown on every front.</p>

[DxPreist1]

<p>Remember the Arena "play a monster" Thing... that, only people decorating the arena like a house.</p>

[Kenazeer]

<p><cite>DxPreist1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... only people decorating the arena like a house.</p></blockquote><p>Did anyone really think SOE did that feature for any other reason? Dungeon decorating SC sales...chaching.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Decorate a Premade Dungeon.</p>

[CatamanderEQ2]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Decorate a Premade Dungeon.</p></blockquote><p>You don't even get to design the map?  </p><p>Lame.  </p><p>So all the DYODs will run on a small selection of premade maps?  Sounds like ... whats a word for not fun at all?</p>

[Piratebay]

<p>Magoo.</p>

[Fazzamar]

<p>Out of curiosity, how many of those people who are saying lame, ripoff, let down, etc have messed with them in beta (ran or designed)?</p>

[Raknid]

<p>To hear the guy/gal in the other thread, lol, they are comparing it to the tools you had to create dungeons in NeverWinter Nights. I about choked when I read that. Specifically that the Dungeon Maker we are getting is a "toned down" version of the NWN ones. Well I guess if you mean like a car that is stripped to the frame...well yeah, then I might be able to go along with it.</p>

[redwoodtreesprite]

<p>There are 3 base dungeons and the Chardok one.  Layouts are decent of course as they are real dungeon floors.</p><p>The avatars you play to fight through the dungeons are pretty weak when fighting groups, which is a big problem.</p><p>Last dungeon I played had 9 mobs attack my avatar at once.  Of course she died pretty fast.  Power consumption is a big problem, and you end up autoattacking much of the time.  Though they fixed it where now the power comes back fast after a combat.</p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>They have lots of props already placed, and sometimes when you pickup a prop to basically delete it from the dungeon it comes back when the dungeon is loaded to play.</p><p>You can use any house item other than store ones and I suspect any that can't go in guild halls also won't go in the dungeons.  But it is possible to almost transform some dungeons if you have enough tiles and wall pieces.  Also, many house pets and plushies will go in the dungeon, allowing rooms with many "mobs"  as you can mix the pets and plushies among the spawn mobs.  The house pets and arena creatures do not seem to walk at all.</p><p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>There will be a lot of junky dungeons I am sure, ones where the maker just put huge amounts of enemies to fight.</p><p>But as these can be decorated just like houses, I think there will be some pretty cool looking ones as well.</p><p>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>The avatars you play are sometimes drops from mobs, as are many of the mob spawn items.  Some seem very rare drops and others are pretty common.</p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>The SC store has a section where you can barter the dungeon marks you earn for gear, avatars, and for things for your dungeons.  I also saw a mount button, though nothing happened when I clicked on it, so that is likely a future possibility for bartering.</p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>All in all, I do like the dungeon maker.  It is still a work in progress, there are many things the devs want to add and improve.</p>

[SOE-MOD-04]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5667978" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5667978</a> Removed for trolling

[Crolack]

<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To hear the guy/gal in the other thread, lol, they are comparing it to the tools you had to create dungeons in NeverWinter Nights. I about choked when I read that. Specifically that the Dungeon Maker we are getting is a "toned down" version of the NWN ones. Well I guess if you mean like a car that is stripped to the frame...well yeah, then I might be able to go along with it.</p></blockquote><p>As a person who actually learned and used the NWN tool and played around DYOD in beta. Yeah, pretty much what you said. It's a house with mobs.</p><p>NWN = Linux.</p><p>DYOD = Windows 3.1</p>

[TwistedFaith]

<p>SOE should have called it decorate your own dungeon <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Mohee]

<p>Based off what I played on Beta, the avatar's you use to play through the Dungeons is horribly boring!!!</p><p>4 skills/abilities</p><p>oh boy thats fun!!! </sarcasm> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Archae]

<p>It 100% is for those who love decorating houses and guild halls in game.</p><p>That said, there is a market for it, some people absolutely love it (I know one) and going through their creations to see what they designed is fun once.</p><p>Will I be making them? No, not till they are "real" (meaning more like NWN with scripting, etc). Since that will probably never happen, ick.</p>

[Cloudrat]

<p>Designing a challenging dungeon that is aesthectically pleasing as well as balanced to meet the capabilities of a well trained adventurer using what the avatars have, should be engaging for those with more than a passing knowledge of the game mechanics.</p><p>This is a real chance to put your name on something that really shows your game skllls.</p>

[Archae]

<p>Did you try it out?</p><p>There isnt much "mechanics" you have control over other than social or not, and how many swarm the adventurer.</p><p>Without scripting or traps or other abilities, its a very boring thing</p><p>Its basically houses where the pets try to eat you.</p>

[Raknid]

<p><cite>Archaegeo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its basically houses where the pets try to eat you.</p></blockquote><p>Great analogy. I would ammend that to inlcude:</p><p>"It is basically a (insert choice here "Better Homes and Garden, " "Architectural Digest," "Southern Living") house where the pets try to eat you."</p><p>Oh wait...you can choose where to put the front and back doors...that should count for something right?</p>

[Rothgar]

<p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p>

[thesiren]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>My daughter, 17, has in her earlier teens used the NWNs level editors as well as Elder Scrolls' editor.  She also spent a ridiculous amount of time in City of Heroes' Mission Architect back when it launched, making many playable mission arcs.</p><p>I'm not personally into content creation, but she is, and she really likes DYOD so far.  Her take was that it isn't as complex as NWN but it's got more to it than CoH's MA.  And she says it isn't nearly as prone to exploits as the MA, either-- hence why you can't play your EQ2 character in there, to prevent leveling exploits  (people in CoH's MA were power leveling to the cap of 50 in literally a day there at the MA's launch, and Paragon Studios fought a neverending battle of exploit removals which culminated in practically no rewards for missions done there, which eventually drove all users away from it).</p><p>And I know that trying to test her missions with all available combinations of character powers and classes turned out to be virtually impossible for us in our little CoH supergroup (guild), too.  The spawns would multiply in crazy ways for large teams and for those team combinations of non-standard classes that we hadn't been able to see in our test runs.  It was almost impossible for one lone creator to balance them, even just for every class while solo.</p><p>My daughter isn't big into forums, but she's aiming at a career in either game programming or digital forensics, has taken virtual high school advanced placement college courses in basic programming already as well as javascript, autocad, etc. and always gets those As, and DYOD does still interest her.  So maybe it's partly that she loves decorating houses in EQ2 too, but still.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />  There must be more to it than others are saying, because acquiring the CE has launched to the top of her Christmas list since she got into the AoD beta.  And that's despite the fact that she will be losing character slots in this live-to-Extended merge today which she isn't too thrilled about (she has always subbed on live but plays only silver on Extended-- with gold toons copied from live-- and has some empty slots she was saving for Beastlords in PvE and PvP).</p><p>For me it was a drag to hear that I can't run my character through these new dungeons, but after playing City of Heroes myself with my family and seeing what the Mission Architect's exploits did to players who abused it (they couldn't even play their characters for Pete's sakes, and didn't even know the zone names of any of the game outside of the MA building, so trying to team with them at 50 was quite the nightmare) I can see why Sony chose to do what they did.</p>

[Raknid]

<p>Ok..ok...I will ammend what I said:</p><p>...well excercised and trained dogs who are confined to floors of the house and have been trained different barks to use depending on situation...</p>

[Nerolathe]

<p><cite>thesiren wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>My daughter, 17, has in her earlier teens used the NWNs level editors as well as Elder Scrolls' editor.  She also spent a ridiculous amount of time in City of Heroes' Mission Architect back when it launched, making many playable mission arcs.</p><p>I'm not personally into content creation, but she is, and she really likes DYOD so far.  Her take was that it isn't as complex as NWN but it's got more to it than CoH's MA.  And she says it isn't nearly as prone to exploits as the MA, either-- hence why you can't play your EQ2 character in there, to prevent leveling exploits  (people in CoH's MA were power leveling to the cap of 50 in literally a day there at the MA's launch, and Paragon Studios fought a neverending battle of exploit removals which culminated in practically no rewards for missions done there, which basically drove all users away from it).</p><p>She isn't big into forums, but she's aiming at a career in either game programming or digital forensics, has taken virtual high school advanced placement college courses in basic programming already as well as javascript, autocad, etc. and always gets those As, and DYOD does still interest her.  So maybe it's partly that she loves decorating houses in EQ2 too, but still.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />  There must be more to it than others are saying, because acquiring the CE has launched to the top of her Christmas list since she got into the AoD beta.  And that's despite the fact that she will be losing character slots in this live-to-Extended merge today which she isn't too thrilled about (she's always subbed on live but only silver on Extended and has some empty slots she was saving for Beastlords in PvE and PvP).</p><p>For me it was a drag to hear that I can't run my character through these new dungeons, but after playing City of Heroes myself with my family and seeing what the Mission Architect's exploits did to players who abused it (they couldn't even play their characters for Pete's sakes, and didn't even know the zone names of any of the game outside of the MA building, so trying to team with them at 50 was quite the nightmare) I can see why Sony chose to do what they did.</p></blockquote><p>These two posts sum it up for me, Just wait till later this week and see where these negative posters will be at. I will say with what is known outside playing it myself, it doesn't seem very good, but once you play it it is quite entertaining and fun. Seriously, will any of you listen to one of the oldest sayings? "Don't judge a book by it's cover." If you want to see you know what it contains, can you still judge a book by it's table of contents? No, just wait and get in there yourself..</p>

[GloveSave72]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>It felt to me more like decorate a room (which you didnt design) with mobs. I realise that asking for something akin to the NVN toolset was asking for too much but it makes me very sad to see the lack of ambition shown here. Something like the NVN toolset would have been a monumental change in MMOs, something that could have set EQ2 apart from other MMOs. I had visions of creating my own dungeon using resources throughout the game, then developing quests with scripts, even the option to include sound effects. But sadly this is not the case.The worst thing is the whole avatar system, who the hell came up with that idea? People associate themselves with their toons, not some nameless avatar that you feel nothing for. It reminded me of the reason why nobody ever played the arenas back in DOF.</p>

[Nephretiti]

<p>I'll back Rothgar up on this.  Unless you actually sat there and actually went through everything, your comment on this is moot.  The tool is VERY good.  As for decorating, I have come to the realization that the decoration of a dungeon for this is almost limitless.  I see complaints that there are only 3 maps - that isn't true at all.</p><p>Level design for ANY game is much MUCH more than what you indicate here.  The other thing I notice is a complete lack of vision from those making these rediculous comments that this is boring.  Sure - there are things here you don't like and there isn't a lot to be done (except there IS a lot to be done) but the number one thing that you fail to understand is the design layout makes it expandable in a very easy fashion. </p><p>I can't WAIT to take my carpenter into some dungeons etc. and start laying out the floorplans.  And I can't wait to start throwing money at the booster packs etc.</p>

[Ansek]

<p>I was very disappointed in DYOD in beta. I would love love LOVE an EQ2 expansion along the lines of EQ1's LDoN or DoN and I hoped DYOD would be it, but it just isnt. I ran about three dozen dungeons on beta, at various levels, on various avatars and while some were interesting, the majority were awful. Being restricted to so few premade maps was depressingly dull too. </p><p>Potentially, the system is good - there are some fantastic house designers out there, I'd love to see them do a dungeon - but it'll take a few months for the system to reach maturity, for the interesting mobs to be collected, for the good stuff to appear and be used.</p><p>The trouble is, I don't see people hanging around that long. The rewards are pitiful, making it all a curio rather than a good way to spend your game time. Why bother running sub-par dungeons 20 times to earn enough dungeon marks to buy an unrepairable weapon that'll be destroyed after two hours use, when you can just, I dunno, do real dungeons for real rewards? In its present form, I just cant see DYOD being worthy of my attention and I suspect most other people will decide the same.</p><p>I really wanted DYOD to work, I was really looking forward to it, but as it stands I don't think I'll bother.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>GloveSave72 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>It felt to me more like decorate a room (which you didnt design) with mobs. I realise that asking for something akin to the NVN toolset was asking for too much but it makes me very sad to see the lack of ambition shown here. Something like the NVN toolset would have been a monumental change in MMOs, something that could have set EQ2 apart from other MMOs. I had visions of creating my own dungeon using resources throughout the game, then developing quests with scripts, even the option to include sound effects. But sadly this is not the case.The worst thing is the whole avatar system, who the hell came up with that idea? People associate themselves with their toons, not some nameless avatar that you feel nothing for. It reminded me of the reason why nobody ever played the arenas back in DOF.</p></blockquote><p>That's really the bottom line.  If I can't play my character, I have no interest at all.</p><p>The Maj'Dul avatars were terrible.  Not fun at all.  The Lavastorm solo shard avatar?  Horribad.</p><p>Generic avatars are NOT FUN.  Even if the decorator tool works, even if people use it, it STILL won't make the feature a success for the simple fact that people play the game to play "their" character, not some nameless, faceless, featureless shell of a character.</p>

[Raknid]

<p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;">Hey. I don't disagree that there are some people who will just adore them. That really doesn't mean anything as far as the greater population goes. Keep in mind the term "fetish" which is "<span><span style="cursor: default;">any</span> <span style="cursor: default;">object,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">idea,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">etc.,</span> <span>eliciting</span> <span>unquestioning</span> <span>reverence,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">respect,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">or</span> <span style="cursor: default;">devotion."</span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff; cursor: default;">I don't doubt that SOE will pour resources into it if it sells a ton of SC items though.</span></span></p>

[Ansek]

<p>One thing I really didnt like, from a design point of view, is that a lot of the Marketplace items (tho they were purchasable using dungeon marks, not station cash) were random: ie, you buy a box that contains an item / boss / mob but you dont know what you get until you open it. I really dislike lotteries like this. </p>

[redwoodtreesprite]

<p>I didn't mind playing the avatars, some are pretty neat.  I found myself identifying with the coldain assasin.  I did try every single avatar, so I would know which ones to get when the expansion went live.  Many are only for group. </p><p>The big problem is the wimpiness of the avatars against multiple mobs.  It is VERY easy for them to die.  Too little power and too low hit points.</p>

[Nephretiti]

<p>Most of the beta dungeons really WERE small and boring.  I didn't see ANYONE truly use all of the tools available.  No flavor text at all - but to be fair - I didn't run them all.  I have a lot of plans and I will probably need a little more time to create all the things I want to use in some of my planned dungeons.  Th point is - I understand what CAN be done.  NONE of the beta dungeons were very good IMHO.  SOme of the power-designers in our game (the ones with 47 homes etc.) are gonna enjoy the creation tool.  There are some nifty things you can get with Dungeon Marks from SC too.  I'd suggest you give it a try...</p>

[Ansek]

<p><cite>Nephretiti wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Most of the beta dungeons really WERE small and boring.  I didn't see ANYONE truly use all of the tools available.  No flavor text at all - but to be fair - I didn't run them all.  I have a lot of plans and I will probably need a little more time to create all the things I want to use in some of my planned dungeons.  Th point is - I understand what CAN be done.  NONE of the beta dungeons were very good IMHO.  SOme of the power-designers in our game (the ones with 47 homes etc.) are gonna enjoy the creation tool.  There are some nifty things you can get with Dungeon Marks from SC too.  I'd suggest you give it a try...</p></blockquote><p>I did. </p><p>The trouble is, in order to buy those nifty things with dungeon marks, you're going to have to run shedloads of dungeons yourself. You can't just be a designer. You're going to have to wade through a lot of rubbish in order to be able to buy a *chance* to get the good stuff. And then of course, you have to have the talent to implement your dungeon vision.</p><p>I cant see why people who dont want to design dungeons would bother - apart from a few consumables and maybe a mount or two, there's no reward for them. Likewise I cant see why someone who DOES want to design dungeons would bother either - why would they want to grind dungeons for weeks or even months to get the impressive stuff when by the time they do, the general playerbase will have long since lost interest in running their dungeons anyway?</p><p>I understand that for some people, designing an amazing dungeon will be reward enough - pretty much all I do in game these days is tradeskill and decorate, I dont publish my houses cos its the making that gives me the enjoyment, not what people think of them - but I think that group of people is going to prove small to say the least. For the vast majority of players, DYOD will be interesting for a fortnight, maybe even a month and then completely forgotten about. </p><p>I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread: I wanted DYOD to work, I was looking forward to it. But I suspect this current iteration will be gathering dust and all but abandoned by the players - and SOE too probably, they don't have a very good record on supporting these sort of things - by the time Erollisi Day comes around</p>

[Rothgar]

<p><cite>Nephretiti wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll back Rothgar up on this.  Unless you actually sat there and actually went through everything, your comment on this is moot.  The tool is VERY good.  As for decorating, I have come to the realization that the decoration of a dungeon for this is almost limitless.  I see complaints that there are only 3 maps - that isn't true at all.</p><p>Level design for ANY game is much MUCH more than what you indicate here.  The other thing I notice is a complete lack of vision from those making these rediculous comments that this is boring.  Sure - there are things here you don't like and there isn't a lot to be done (except there IS a lot to be done) but the number one thing that you fail to understand is the design layout makes it expandable in a very easy fashion. </p><p>I can't WAIT to take my carpenter into some dungeons etc. and start laying out the floorplans.  And I can't wait to start throwing money at the booster packs etc.</p></blockquote><p>Just an additional comment about the map templates. </p><p>It's true we don't allow you to build maps from the ground up, but you still have lots of flexibility.  We have around 16 various map layouts and within each of those layouts you can completely customize the entrance and exit locations.  On top of that you can place collision objects to block rooms and further tailor the layout.</p><p>So no, its not a 3D editor, but you still have lots of flexibility.</p>

[1jesse1]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nephretiti wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll back Rothgar up on this.  Unless you actually sat there and actually went through everything, your comment on this is moot.  The tool is VERY good.  As for decorating, I have come to the realization that the decoration of a dungeon for this is almost limitless.  I see complaints that there are only 3 maps - that isn't true at all.</p><p>Level design for ANY game is much MUCH more than what you indicate here.  The other thing I notice is a complete lack of vision from those making these rediculous comments that this is boring.  Sure - there are things here you don't like and there isn't a lot to be done (except there IS a lot to be done) but the number one thing that you fail to understand is the design layout makes it expandable in a very easy fashion. </p><p>I can't WAIT to take my carpenter into some dungeons etc. and start laying out the floorplans.  And I can't wait to start throwing money at the booster packs etc.</p></blockquote><p>Just an additional comment about the map templates. </p><p>It's true we don't allow you to build maps from the ground up, but you still have lots of flexibility.  We have around 16 various map layouts and within each of those layouts you can completely customize the entrance and exit locations.  On top of that you can place collision objects to block rooms and further tailor the layout.</p><p>So no, its not a 3D editor, but you still have lots of flexibility.</p></blockquote><p>Im glad 'some' people are excited about decorating a dungeon and taking generic avatars in to clear them.</p><p>Personally when I pay 40.00 I expect the 'vision' to be provided by the developers.</p><p>DYOD is nice for a few people and should have been a 5$ sc item.</p><p>It its this feature being used as an excuse to not deliver any new zones, aa abilities, levels, overland, lore.</p><p>Thank you for the bots I mean mercs. But I can go somewhere else and get better function for cheaper then what soe is doing here.</p>

[KindredHeart]

<p>Since these are played by avatars I'm wondering if they will become as unpopular as arenas are today.  They had an initial novelty spike and quickly died off in use.</p>

[Raknid]

<p><cite>Vallar@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since these are played by avatars I'm wondering if they will become as unpopular as arenas are today.  They had an initial novelty spike and quickly died off in use.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see many adventurers doing them much, and it will be interesting to see whether the decorators and TSers are up to "grinding" dungeons for "tokens" to get stuff. I wonder how long it will be before we hear the "too hard..."takes too long..." "not worth it..." from those who do when they really have to do something "adventure" wise to obtain something in an "adventure" game.</p>

[Tamire]

<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vallar@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since these are played by avatars I'm wondering if they will become as unpopular as arenas are today.  They had an initial novelty spike and quickly died off in use.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see many adventurers doing them much, and it will be interesting to see whether the decorators and TSers are up to "grinding" dungeons for "tokens" to get stuff. I wonder how long it will be before we hear the "too hard..."takes too long..." "not worth it..." from those who do when they really have to do something "adventure" wise to obtain something in an "adventure" game.</p></blockquote><p>I haven't looked much into the dungeon maker, but as an avid tradeskiller and decorator, I <em>can</em> say my fortitude for grinding out the things I want is stellar. For the average city fest, I whip out approximately 300-400 tokens, starting from 0. Moonlight is around 75, annual holidays the specific currency can reach the 3,000 and up range. If there is a world, or holiday, quest with a nifty house item, I will repeat it until my brain ruptures to stock up.</p><p>Point being, never underestimate the determination and insanity of dedicated decorators!</p>

[Kraag]

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">This is still one of the main reasons I am excited for this expansion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Thanks for the reviews.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">I am an adventurer, a crafter, and decorator.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">I do not raid, go to the battlegrounds or play the little card game, so was happy to see some content I will enjoy.</span></span></p>

[Raknid]

<p><cite>Tamire@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vallar@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since these are played by avatars I'm wondering if they will become as unpopular as arenas are today.  They had an initial novelty spike and quickly died off in use.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see many adventurers doing them much, and it will be interesting to see whether the decorators and TSers are up to "grinding" dungeons for "tokens" to get stuff. I wonder how long it will be before we hear the "too hard..."takes too long..." "not worth it..." from those who do when they really have to do something "adventure" wise to obtain something in an "adventure" game.</p></blockquote><p>I haven't looked much into the dungeon maker, but as an avid tradeskiller and decorator, I <em>can</em> say my fortitude for grinding out the things I want is stellar. For the average city fest, I whip out approximately 300-400 tokens, starting from 0. Moonlight is around 75, annual holidays the specific currency can reach the 3,000 and up range. If there is a world, or holiday, quest with a nifty house item, I will repeat it until my brain ruptures to stock up.</p><p>Point being, never underestimate the determination and insanity of dedicated decorators!</p></blockquote><p>My point was that the houses that are being decorated and the TS stations don't fight back.</p>

[Crillus]

<p><cite>Mohee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Based off what I played on Beta, the avatar's you use to play through the Dungeons is horribly boring!!!</p><p>4 skills/abilities</p><p>oh boy thats fun!!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Oh, so you get some canned toon to play the dungeon and not your real character?</p><p>Hmm, maybe good if I'm REAL bored, but it's still a step in an interesting direction.</p>

[SpineDoc]

<p><cite>Vallar@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since these are played by avatars I'm wondering if they will become as unpopular as arenas are today.  They had an initial novelty spike and quickly died off in use.</p></blockquote><p>They will die out pretty quickly.  SOE could have forced, I mean enticed players to do them if they gave almost fabled gear like battlegrounds did when they implemented that, but I'm not sure what the DYOD token bought gear will be like, and from what I hear it degrades.</p><p>It's a shame, but the one huge glaring issue that 99% of people harped on is the whole avatar thing, and that's the one thing they didn't listen to.  I wonder if they could make a new zone just to put in "features" which no one uses anymore, you can put arenas, battlegrounds and dyod in there so people know where to access them.</p>

[Crillus]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nephretiti wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll back Rothgar up on this.  Unless you actually sat there and actually went through everything, your comment on this is moot.  The tool is VERY good.  As for decorating, I have come to the realization that the decoration of a dungeon for this is almost limitless.  I see complaints that there are only 3 maps - that isn't true at all.</p><p>Level design for ANY game is much MUCH more than what you indicate here.  The other thing I notice is a complete lack of vision from those making these rediculous comments that this is boring.  Sure - there are things here you don't like and there isn't a lot to be done (except there IS a lot to be done) but the number one thing that you fail to understand is the design layout makes it expandable in a very easy fashion. </p><p>I can't WAIT to take my carpenter into some dungeons etc. and start laying out the floorplans.  And I can't wait to start throwing money at the booster packs etc.</p></blockquote><p>Just an additional comment about the map templates. </p><p>It's true we don't allow you to build maps from the ground up, but you still have lots of flexibility.  We have around 16 various map layouts and within each of those layouts you can completely customize the entrance and exit locations.  On top of that you can place collision objects to block rooms and further tailor the layout.</p><p>So no, its not a 3D editor, but you still have lots of flexibility.</p></blockquote><p>I would think pathing and said collision planes would cause a lot of complexity - I dunno how it works in EQ2, but I know in Fallout3/Morrowind/etc - level creation could get quite in-depth.</p><p>But still - why lock them to avatars? Couldn't you guys do something like this...</p><p>Offer 'pieces' with pathing and collisions already setup - like building it out of legos, pre-configured pieces, with set spawns in them. The player could still choose what type of spawn from a list of possibilities.</p><p>EG:</p><p>Mob Type: (player chosen from a list of options)</p><p>Number of Mobs: (player chosen from a list of options)</p><p>Level of Mobs: (player chosen from a list of options)</p><p>Kinda like such - where they just pick from available options, then decorate however, since that's inconsqeuential to mechanics anyway.</p><p>A 'part' would have a max number of mobs that it could contain, placeable by the players. So 'dungeon section 1' would max out at 20 mobs... etc.</p><p>Of course the pieces would have to be 'snappable' - so to speak, but then player could build a dungeon from these parts, rather than a canned dungeon. The servers would regulate the mobs/loot and such - so it would cut out people putting in massive tons of loot willy-nilly. Then the 'connectors' would be the same door way or other choke point that would be snappable to other pieces.</p><p>That's kinda how the whole Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout editors work mostly - except in those you can edit the item databases and all, which would never work in a MMO.</p><p>Perhaps in the end, you could create a dungeon system similar to player housing - but then perhaps a voting system could exist to single out the better ones and the devs could put the best ones in the game on a permanent basis...</p>

[Celline-Layonaire]

<p>Oh, how many times do the dev team have to tell you?</p><p>They don't allow player characters to be played in DYOD dungeons because of the balance reasons, not because they prefer avatars or upper management just don't want player chars to be played in these dungeons.</p><p>So if you guys have your own criticism or suggestion, then say it based on balance issue, not with mindless grumbling  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />   </p>

[Articwind]

<p><cite>Raknid wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;">Hey. I don't disagree that there are some people who will just adore them. That really doesn't mean anything as far as the greater population goes. Keep in mind the term "fetish" which is "<span><span style="cursor: default;">any</span> <span style="cursor: default;">object,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">idea,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">etc.,</span> <span>eliciting</span> <span>unquestioning</span> <span>reverence,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">respect,</span> <span style="cursor: default;">or</span> <span style="cursor: default;">devotion."</span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="cursor: default; color: #ffffff;">I don't doubt that SOE will pour resources into it if it sells a ton of SC items though.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>What do you mean "greater population"? You guys act like the people who enjoy this stuff are a fairly non-existent when in fact the history of this game shows that there is a huge population of players that enjoy the house design aspects and those same people will be all over the dungeon maker.</p><p>Think of all the updates to housing over the years and there was someone with the same attitude about them that you are having now. Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean there isn't a sizable audience out there for these features.</p><p>Games don't add as many housing specific features as there are in EQ2 without a significant portion of their playerbase wanting them in the first place.</p>

[Wintersolstice]

<p><cite>Fazzamar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Out of curiosity, how many of those people who are saying lame, ripoff, let down, etc have messed with them in beta (ran or designed)?</p></blockquote><p>I did.  I did tons of /feedback on what I thought they needed to do to improve them, some of which I can put here:</p><p>1.  Non-aggro NPCs to move the story along (like Sheila in Nektropolus castle).  You can put flavor next on the mobs now, but only in response to combat events (taking aggro, mob going to half health, dying).</p><p>2.  Timers.  No timers in there, people can't "win" by defeating your mobs in x amount of time.</p><p>3.  Levers / traps / other manipulatable items.  Nothing.  You can place mobs, you can place some furniture.  When you're done with that, you can place mobs, and place some furniture. </p><p>4.  Events.   Nothing is event driven, i.e., you start off in a circle of mobs, you aggro, you attack.  How about, none of them are aggro, a non-aggro mob speaks (giving the story line), and THEN boom, everyone's aggro and attacking you, or maybe they are timed to become aggro one at a time around the circle.  Nothing like that.</p><p>The best people can do to make a "cool" dungeon is decorate the hell out of it and try to tell a story that way and hope people figure out what you meant, because basically, it's just place mobs, place furniture... place mobs... place furniture.</p><p>Good luck making a story out of the flavor text that they give you on the combat events on the mobs, it's all you have.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Decorate a premade dungeon.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Decorate a premade dungeon.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>wow.. why am I double posting?</p>

[Hawtee]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>that's really cool for you and all, and i'm super stoked that you're excited.  but you won't find me wasting my valuable time in a player designed instance in control of some weak-form-of-a-character, not my own character btw, that offer no rewards for that character I've spent my time and $ on.</p><p>i think it's cool your team wasted the time to develope this, instead of, you know, designing some real content.</p>

[thesiren]

<p><cite>Hawtee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>that's really cool for you and all, and i'm super stoked that you're excited.  but you won't find me wasting my valuable time in a player designed instance in control of some weak-form-of-a-character, not my own character btw, that offer no rewards for that character I've spent my time and $ on.</p><p>i think it's cool your team wasted the time to develope this, instead of, you know, designing some real content.</p></blockquote><p>Hawtee, are you on an alt account because you're too embarassed to make such obnoxious posts on your main?  Or are you a free player finally set loose on the live forums, and if so, you really can't criticize what the devs do on a game you don't even financially support.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Hawtee]

<p>@thesiren</p><p>i have nothing to be embarassed of regardless, and i've played eq2 in beta, and a year following on najena.  i quit for some time, returned for a few years to nagafen, quit again, and recently returned yet again to the bazaar server, to this mess.</p><p>however and whatever account i post on, doesn't take away the fact that said what i said, and a nobody wants to question my post count.  have a nice day, cause i care.</p><p>*edit* currently paying for 3 accounts and i've purchased $300+ on SC and live gamer (first time player on the bazaar) during my short return.  nice assumption ya made... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> back at ya.</p>

[Hawtee]

<p><cite>thesiren wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hawtee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds like many of you haven't tried it.  No, its not NWN, but its much more than decorating!</p><p>You have control over mob placement and can even setup pathing for them or tell them to wander the room they are in.  Each mob also has customizable favor text you can add for all sorts of triggers like Aggro, Battle, Death, Change Target, Victory, etc.</p><p>The effect objects all convey a buff to the spawners in the same room .  There are stacking rules so you can't just load a room with lots of effect objects.  In case of a stacking conflict, mobs get the effect from the closest effect object.  So this allows you to create multiple encounters with different effects in the same large room.</p><p>Also, effect objects can combo off of each other.  We will let you guys discover those combos as you play.  But as an example, if you place Object A and Object B near each other, spawners in that room will get bonus buff C.  Not all objects combo off each other, but many do.</p><p>As the feature matures we will be releasing more effect objects that will change mob behavior, like mem wipes, full heals and other effects that you might see in boss fights so you can basically build scripted encounters by dropping objects. </p><p>We don't plan on actually opening up a scripting interface because we want this feature to appeal to the non-technical crowd.  It's similar to house decorating, yes.  The reason for that is because people are familiar with it and it has a low learning curve.</p><p>We've even improved upon the decorating interface by adding the new radial menu that lets you more easily tweak object placement.</p><p>Oh yeah, you can also customize the names of the mobs, so that combined with flavor text and placable house objects should really let you tell a story with your dungeon.</p><p>Personally I'm really excited to see what people do with it and to hear your feedback and suggestions for more effect objects.</p></blockquote><p>that's really cool for you and all, and i'm super stoked that you're excited.  but you won't find me wasting my valuable time in a player designed instance in control of some weak-form-of-a-character, not my own character btw, that offer no rewards for that character I've spent my time and $ on.</p><p>i think it's cool your team wasted the time to develope this, instead of, you know, designing some real content.</p></blockquote><p>Hawtee, are you on an alt account because you're too embarassed to make such obnoxious posts on your main?  Or are you a free player finally set loose on the live forums, and if so, you really can't criticize what the devs do on a game you don't even financially support.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>..and just to add;</p><p>i guarantee i've played MMO's as much as or longer than you.  and my opinion on the matter (which I'm entitled as much as you) is that this design-your-own-dungeon stuff is a weak excuse for added content to what SOE calls an expansion.  I'm not the first to say it, and I definitely won't be the last.</p><p>HOWEVER, I've always, for the most part, been a big fan of SOE games.  I've had my fair share of disappointments with them, but all in all, I will support them.  And due to the $60 I went ahead and paid, I can complain about it all i want, thanks.</p><p>*edited for spelling</p>