Devs, explain this to me [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Talathion

12-02-2011, 02:17 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is it that the EXISTING pet classes don't have even 20% of the options that your new pet class has when it comes to pet selection.Beastlords: 16 pets with different buffs and abilitiesSummoners: 3 pets with different abilities.I would like to quote SJ here, but I can't find the exact post. It was made clear that BL's would in no way marginalize Summoners. That seems to be incorrect now.Why on earth would any self respecting group bring a Summoner when a BL was available? It simply won't happen. As was expected, BL's are ridiculously overpowered, not necessarily because of what they have, but because of their ludicrous flexibility.Hey, thanks for making sure Summoners weren't marginalized though, we sure appreciate it.</blockquote>All 25 classes are balanced, thats why beastlords can out heal paladins.

Brigh

12-02-2011, 02:52 PM

Were you in beta and tested them or are you just going by bits and pieces of info you read?

Banditman

12-02-2011, 02:58 PM

I have enough access to information to know that Summoners are going to be largely marginalized by the sheer flexibility that a BL will contribute.

GeminiStar

12-02-2011, 03:14 PM

As someone who was in Beta, the BL pets mostly all do the same thing but have different names for their spell. All of the pets do not have all different spells that can be swapped on the fly. All of the pets who can heal all do the same exact heal except for the Bovine that have a chance to proc a 7% heal bonus for the group then cast their heal.Honestly the pet choice will come down to what the player likes to see, chances are they will pick and max one or two offense and defense pets and stick with them.Also the beastlord cannot heal without losing a level of Savegry so they lose some utility and DPS every time they use it and the heals that actually do anything are on a long recast.The best part about the beastlord will be the Advantages they have. They are group temp buffs, small wards, dot damage, instant damage that is on an almost instant recast but can only be used when the pet procs a buff called Weakness.Please people stop going on this half truth or assume you know what the BST does because of random word of mouth because things are going way off of what their actuall skills are.I will be online tonight around 11PM EST on Everfrost server as Lantis, I will run beta on my other computer and if you want I will give you word for word every line of text from every BST skill to stop this nonsense.Edit for play time.

Banditman

12-02-2011, 03:23 PM

I don't need you to run beta for me . . .

Davngr1

12-03-2011, 02:00 AM

beastlord is an amazing class.. i really, really hope that devs will be making tweaks to other classes (at least dps ones) that will follow suit. the game would benefit immensely from it.

The_Cheeseman

12-03-2011, 03:45 AM

I am not sure if you are aware of this, but there are 24 classes in this game, and only 4 true roles in a raid. Every class is marginalized in some way by another class, all that matters is whether you can get a player who enjoys that class enough to stick with it and is capable of adequately filling his prescribed role. Beastlords are a DPS/Utility class, like summoners. They are mechanically unlike summoners in nearly every way, and I don't see why they would cause any problems for summoners, specifically.Considering they will be competing for attention with 7-year-old characters, I don't see beastlords overpopulating the group/raid game anytime soon. Like every new thing, there will be a ton of them for a while, but when the novelty wears off, people will go back to their mains and only the few who really love the beastlord will continue full-time.Beastlords are not like summoners, and I fail to see why you'd need a developer to explain that.

Banditman

12-03-2011, 04:33 AM

Because unlike Summoners, Beastlords have MEANINGFUL utility. Utility that works. Utility that is desired.When is the last time you heard "Oh, we need a Summoner to bring us some utility". Yea, me either.On the other hand, given a choice between bring a Summoner or a BL, given that DPS is (in theory) equal, it's BL hands freakin down.THATS the problem. That is why BL's are going to marginalize Summoners to a significant extent.The Summoners in my guild are already making their plans to PL a BL to replace their Summoner because frankly, it's better for the guild.

wullailhuit

12-03-2011, 05:03 AM

<cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you in beta and tested them or are you just going by bits and pieces of info you read? </blockquote>I was in beta and played a BL properly , leveled him to level 79 without using the beta buffer until it went to PvP when I stopped playing, I also play a necro on live.I can definately state , played properly , a Beastlord marginalises my necro by a HUGE amount.The BL will take a lot more concentration to play , where as the necro is a lot easier to get their max DPS out of them.BL will have a lot more utlilty when played skillfully.Their DPS will equal or exceed my necro while their warder is up and they are in the correct stance.

feldon30

12-03-2011, 07:38 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if you are aware of this</blockquote>I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but Beastlords offer more options, more buffs, more choices, and more in-combat "reactions" than any other pet class. I wouldn't be surprised if every Dirge rolls a Beastlord. It's the same basic group "role" as a Dirge but MUCH more interesting and interactive to play.

Kasar

12-03-2011, 08:06 PM

New class, new abilities that match the current state of the game.This shouldn't be surprising, or that their AA selections would make more sense than those of other classes.A class revamp would probably push DoV2 content into 2015 though with all of the rebalancing issues because once upon a time a dev said...

Cherri

12-03-2011, 09:29 PM

Beastlords can give up to 59% potency to the group and the wards they have are regenerating too.They can buff/debuff, have group heals, hots & wards and they can give mana back to group members oh and DPS ofcourse.

VikodiN

12-03-2011, 10:28 PM

Just enjoy the uberness before everyone comes out of the woodwork with those "you know what" bats.

The_Cheeseman

12-04-2011, 03:32 AM

Honestly, I don't see Beastlords being much competition in the long run. Having now gotten the chance to actually play with them a bit, they are indeed extremely versatile, but they are also the most skill-intensive class I have played. Nearly everything a beastlord does is proactive, they have very little in the way of passive buffs that benefit the group without their effort. Though they can provide some very amazing buffs, these buffs are very short duration, and can only be used during combat, so they will likely not have time to get them going on heroic trash and such. Also, they must choose between great buffs and great DPS in any given situation, they can't really do both at once.So basically, playing a beastlord is very active and requires a player who is adept at determining which buff will be most useful at any given time in a dynamic environment. I think we all know that this will be a bit too complex for a large number of players. Also, summoners are a ranged, spell-based DPS class with a few passive group buffs and some useful utility effects for emergencies. They are generally not modular (unless you think the tank or scout pets are worth using in groups) and other than executing an efficient casting rotation, require very little effort to play well (beyond the normal situational awareness and pet micro-management).I guess my point is that while beastlords can do a whole lot of neat stuff, they can't do all of it at once, and this wealth of options comes at a heavy price of complexity. I don't see beastlords being particularly dangerous for summoners, at least no more dangerous than they'd be for any DPS or utility class. The playstyle of the beastlord is unique and different enough that switching from a summoner to a beastlord just for min-maxing purposes isn't really an attractive option, so you probably won't see summoners abandoning the class (after the initial "everybody is a beastlord phase, anyway).While I reserve the right to change my mind after beastlords are released to the masses, as of right now I don't really anticipate any serious issues with class balance. Beastlords may be overpowered as a whole, but I don't think they'll be so much better at any single role to totally obsolete other classes.

feldon30

12-04-2011, 08:55 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Beastlords]...are also the most skill-intensive class I have played. Nearly everything a beastlord does is proactive, they have very little in the way of passive buffs that benefit the group without their effort. Though they can provide some very amazing buffs, these buffs are very short duration, and can only be used during combat, so they will likely not have time to get them going on heroic trash and such. Also, they must choose between great buffs and great DPS in any given situation, they can't really do both at once.So basically, playing a beastlord is very active and requires a player who is adept at determining which buff will be most useful at any given time in a dynamic environment.</blockquote>So your argument is: Yes, Beastlords are more interesting, more dynamic, more pro-active, and more powerful than other support classes, but since most people are terrible at playing EQ2, it's not gonna matter.Well, it's an interesting spin on class balance. But since I've heard the devs repeatedly use the Potential of a class as the reason why that class needs no further help, I'm not sure the devs view it the same way.

Maroger

12-04-2011, 09:04 AM

<cite>Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you in beta and tested them or are you just going by bits and pieces of info you read? </blockquote>I was in beta and played a BL properly , leveled him to level 79 without using the beta buffer until it went to PvP when I stopped playing, I also play a necro on live.I can definately state , played properly , a Beastlord marginalises my necro by a HUGE amount.The BL will take a lot more concentration to play , where as the necro is a lot easier to get their max DPS out of them.BL will have a lot more utlilty when played skillfully.Their DPS will equal or exceed my necro while their warder is up and they are in the correct stance.</blockquote>Which warders did you ? which were the most useful?

EvilAstroboy

12-04-2011, 01:11 PM

Summoners are dumb. Beastlords wont replace them. Beastlords are the summoner equivalent for scouts. If anything its rogues who should be concerned, mostly swashies since brigands still have dispatch.

Talathion

12-04-2011, 02:28 PM

The Beastlord has the highest autoattack in the game, Lol.

Nulgara

12-04-2011, 05:14 PM

you are aware the auto-attack boosting aa is a PROC not a persistent buff right? and good luck making sure it procs at teh same exact time that all your crit bonus temps are upwe did A LOT of parsing last night. they arent going to replace a t1 dps class. yes they are powerful but they arent THAT powerful. they will be in the ballpark of well played assassins and rangers when i feral stance. but they lose all that awesome group utility to do so.and i will say that yes when in utility stance in good gear they will very likely outparse both bards potentially but not by such a margin that will make a good bard obsolete. tandem with a dirge the spiritual beast offers much to a group other then their own parse.the person that said rogues should look-out is absolutely correct. they will need to get better to keep their raid spots. but Cheeseman is also correct in that the majority of players will not play a beastlord to a level of efficiency to take a raid spot away from an established character. it is a deeply complex class in comaprison to most other classes, requiring absolute situational awareness in order to play well. it is a class that requires more micro-management then any other class i have ever played in an mmo. the majority of players play the most bang for the least effort type of classes and they will not do well with this one.it is a powerful versatile class, in the wrong hands it will be absolute garbage, in the right hands it will do some amazing stuff. I dont see anything wrong with that. its just like the difference between a good bard and a buffbot.

The_Cheeseman

12-04-2011, 06:06 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your argument is: Yes, Beastlords are more interesting, more dynamic, more pro-active, and more powerful than other support classes, but since most people are terrible at playing EQ2, it's not gonna matter.Well, it's an interesting spin on class balance. But since I've heard the devs repeatedly use the Potential of a class as the reason why that class needs no further help, I'm not sure the devs view it the same way.</blockquote>Yes, beastlords are more dynamic and more proactive than any other class in EQ2, whether you find them more interesting is obviously a matter of taste. These features are not always beneficial, and not every player considers them positive. Some folks prefer a consistent, reliable play experience. Therefore, the beastlord will not appear to everybody.I also never said they are more powerful than other support classes. I don't have sufficient experience with the class to make any informed judgements on their general power level, yet. I simply stated that they seem very capable, but also very modular. My point was that while they can do some very impressive things, they can't do all of them at once. Beastlords can adequately fill a DPS or a support role, but not both. Nothing they bring to either role directly obsoletes any other class, so I can see no reason why they would replace established characters.In other words, they can fill more possible raid slots, but they won't necessarily be a superior choice for those slots compared to the competition.

Neskonlith

12-04-2011, 06:18 PM

Felshades

12-04-2011, 08:21 PM

<cite>Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you in beta and tested them or are you just going by bits and pieces of info you read? </blockquote>I was in beta and played a BL properly , leveled him to level 79 without using the beta buffer until it went to PvP when I stopped playing, I also play a necro on live.I can definately state , played properly , a Beastlord marginalises my necro by a HUGE amount.The BL will take a lot more concentration to play , where as the necro is a lot easier to get their max DPS out of them.BL will have a lot more utlilty when played skillfully.Their DPS will equal or exceed my necro while their warder is up and they are in the correct stance.</blockquote>You assume 90% of the people rerolling beastlords have half a clue of what they're doing.I know my raid's not going to drop a 200k parsing summoner just because we picked up a beastlord. Especially not the one that's been raiding with them since kunark.

Kreton

12-05-2011, 03:17 AM

This is pretty much what I expected when they announced they were adding a 25th class. They didn't just make it harder to balance and add new things to all the classes in the future (since they have 1 more class to add into the mix when developing new aa's/abilities), but they made the problems of other classes even more glaring when they spend so much time building this class from the ground up based on the current mechanics of the game, while other classes just have to deal with broken or outdated abilities/aa's. Adding a new class is just a quick money grab with no real forethought on the other classes development.

TheSpin

12-05-2011, 11:28 AM

We can only hope that the more up to date and dynamic playstyle of beastlords will somehow be carried over to the other classes in time.

Banditman

12-05-2011, 11:50 AM

<cite>Kreton wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is pretty much what I expected when they announced they were adding a 25th class. They didn't just make it harder to balance and add new things to all the classes in the future (since they have 1 more class to add into the mix when developing new aa's/abilities), but they made the problems of other classes even more glaring when they spend so much time building this class from the ground up based on the current mechanics of the game, while other classes just have to deal with broken or outdated abilities/aa's. Adding a new class is just a quick money grab with no real forethought on the other classes development.</blockquote>This here. Exactly.You have 24 diverse classes who all have good roles in the game. Unfortunately, *ALL* of those classes have issues because they were ORIGINAL classes, as in, have existed since launch and had many iterations and balancing passes over them. They are, in general, very patchwork.Now you have one class that isn't patchwork. The class is balanced to the way the game currently plays. The abilities they have are designed for the game as it exists today.That's the problem. BL's will remain as they are because SOE needs to justify the expansion. The other classes, sadly, will also remain as they are because SOE doesn't have the resources to get them right.

feldon30

12-05-2011, 11:59 AM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your argument is: Yes, Beastlords are more interesting, more dynamic, more pro-active, and more powerful than other support classes, but since most people are terrible at playing EQ2, it's not gonna matter.</blockquote>Wasn't long ago when some dirges also tried using that reasoning in a bid to avoid an adjustment to their class, but for the greater good of the game and class balance, the adjustment proceeded.I cannot see any reason why Beastlords should be exempt when the greater good of the game and class balance requires them to be further adjusted.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The irony is, the gameplay experience of Beastlords is what I'd originally expected when I first rolled a Dirge. Twisting songs, short-term awesome buffs, helping your group. Not just Rezzing and Debuffing and the occasional VC if all the stars align and you don't get stifled.

Banditman

12-05-2011, 12:12 PM

Frankly, the BL play experience should extend to Summoners, Bard and Enchanters. Specifically, utility classes should be FUN to play, should require the attention of a skilled player to perform at peak and make a big difference when that is true.Summoners simply need to be as non crappy as BL's are. Yes, Summoner DPS is fine. However, BL's DPS appears fine also, and BL's provide a ludicrous level of flexibility when compared to Summoners.

Fugazl

12-05-2011, 05:57 PM

It will change give it time, prolly around the same time they feel people aren't buying enough BL fluff on SC.You can't have the new subs they expect claim on getting from the addition of beastlords thinking they suck. The amount leaving vs. the amount they are gaining makes that thought void.Nerf bats spring.

Mohee

12-06-2011, 10:09 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is it that the EXISTING pet classes don't have even 20% of the options that your new pet class has when it comes to pet selection.Beastlords: 16 pets with different buffs and abilitiesSummoners: 3 pets with different abilities.I would like to quote SJ here, but I can't find the exact post. It was made clear that BL's would in no way marginalize Summoners. That seems to be incorrect now.Why on earth would any self respecting group bring a Summoner when a BL was available? It simply won't happen. As was expected, BL's are ridiculously overpowered, not necessarily because of what they have, but because of their ludicrous flexibility.Hey, thanks for making sure Summoners weren't marginalized though, we sure appreciate it.</blockquote>Of these 3 pets we have , only 1 is useful. So might as well not even count the others <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Banditman

12-06-2011, 11:32 AM

I am hoping against hope that some changes to pet AI went in and that the melee pets will actually use their abilities in conjunction with auto attack, given that BL pets will absolutely need that ability.I know, I am going to be disappointed. I can't makes heads or tails of why I do this to myself.

Banditman

12-12-2011, 02:16 PM

/disappointed

skuext

12-12-2011, 02:58 PM

<cite>Mohee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is it that the EXISTING pet classes don't have even 20% of the options that your new pet class has when it comes to pet selection.Beastlords: 16 pets with different buffs and abilitiesSummoners: 3 pets with different abilities.I would like to quote SJ here, but I can't find the exact post. It was made clear that BL's would in no way marginalize Summoners. That seems to be incorrect now.Why on earth would any self respecting group bring a Summoner when a BL was available? It simply won't happen. As was expected, BL's are ridiculously overpowered, not necessarily because of what they have, but because of their ludicrous flexibility.Hey, thanks for making sure Summoners weren't marginalized though, we sure appreciate it.</blockquote>Of these 3 pets we have , only 1 is useful. So might as well not even count the others <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>yeahand while BL can choose how their pet looks , we are stuck with the same boring model.....

Fitz

12-12-2011, 03:04 PM

Cheeseman, you just proved Bandit's point. A BL is versatile enough to be a summoner AND utility; when faced with the choice, why not pick a BL? There is simply no reason not to. Which great emergency utility do summoners have that I'm missing, by the way? Conj stoneskin that evaporates to 70 pt hits in raids? Or do you mean ET? Great emergency skill, too. Play a summoner before you deem them easy to parse with. I do more work to my dps alive than any other class in the game. You're saying that a BL requires more skill and should therefore dps higher? Crock. Enjoy the OP reign until the big nerf bat his you.

The_Cheeseman

12-12-2011, 05:05 PM

<cite>Fitz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cheeseman, you just proved Bandit's point. A BL is versatile enough to be a summoner AND utility; when faced with the choice, why not pick a BL? There is simply no reason not to. Which great emergency utility do summoners have that I'm missing, by the way? Conj stoneskin that evaporates to 70 pt hits in raids? Or do you mean ET? Great emergency skill, too. Play a summoner before you deem them easy to parse with. I do more work to my dps alive than any other class in the game. You're saying that a BL requires more skill and should therefore dps higher? Crock. Enjoy the OP reign until the big nerf bat his you.</blockquote>I should clarify that I was talking about a necromancer in my post, because I have a 90 necro that I've been playing for 6 years. Necros have a fairly simple casting rotation, and when properly geared, can do very well on a parse. Good ones can even compete with sorcerers and predators in many situations. Necros have an in-combat rez, some various heals, some power regen/cost reduction, and group potency buffs. None of these are earth-shattering by any means, but when added to a class that does fairly good DPS, it can be quite helpful at times.If you need DPS for your group, why not pick a summoner over a beastlord? Nobody has shown that beastlords parse any better than summoners, and summoners are at least partially effective even without their pets. Plus, summoner pets appear to be more easily maintained than the beastlord's, since they have more access to efficient pet heals, stoneskins, and AoE prevention effects. Not to mention the fact that summoners can do most of their DPS at range, while beastlords have to be right up in the MOB's face, eating AoEs.As far as soloing goes, my experience so far with a beastlord shows it to be an efficient soloer, but not in the same league as my necromancer or my inquisitor. Beastlords lack the survivability to tank epics and they don't have any means of keeping the epics from hitting them, so their wealth of options aren't all that useful in that situation. My necromancer, on the other hand, can heal through massive amounts of damage while the pet tanks, and with shared stats and the new summoner-to-pet threat transfer, I don't even need to hold back my DPS much anymore. The necro has control effects to deal with adds, a pet cure to get rid of all those annoying detrimental epics like to toss around, and means to make the pet control immune in situations that call for it. The beastlord can't really compete with that.Honestly, I would place the beastlord below my necromancer, monk, and inquisitor for extreme soloing, and I have not seen any data to suggest that their DPS is any more significant than their competition. Beastlords are capable of filling either a DPS role or a utility role, but generally a group only needs one or the other of those roles filled, and while being able to do both is nice, unless they actually do either one significantly better than others who can fill that role, I don't see a problem.Also allow me to be clear here: I have no vested interest in the beastlord class. I think it's fun, but I have 5 level 90's that I am far more invested in, and have been playing the beastlord just for something new to do. I am not defending them in order to maintain some hypothetical power advantage for my own benefit, my beastlord is only level 45, and I have no plans to power my way to 90 in the near future. Most of my experience with the beatlord at the high-end was in Beta. It simply annoys me, as a logically-minded person, to see so many people jumping to conclusions without presenting any evidence to support their claims. The expansion has only been out for a matter of days, there aren't enough level 90 beastlords to even draw any relevant conclusions yet. Saying they are overpowered now is total conjecture. In a month or two when the new generation of beastlords have had time to reach max level, earn some decent AAs, gear-up a bit, and master the intricacies of the class, then we can start discussing balance. Until then, all I can see is people trying to kill a class before it even has a chance to live, which is quite sad.If beastlords actually are proven to be overpowered, then they should receive adjustments. Until there is actually any data to analyze, calling for nerfs is simply betraying your own prejudice and ignorance. My point is that there is no way for us to really know one way or the other at this time.

Banditman

12-12-2011, 05:24 PM

There are BL's raiding Challenge mode Drunder already. They are only partially geared, and certainly have not mastered the intracies of the class yet. However, they are parsing competitively already.

The_Cheeseman

12-12-2011, 05:32 PM

Beastlords who are raiding HM drunder 6 days after the expansion launch are not representative of the greater population. Beastlords were designed to parse competitively, especially when piloted by top-tier players.

Banditman

12-12-2011, 05:59 PM

Which is exactly how classes are NOT balanced. Classes have never been balanced around the "greater population" but by their theoretical maximums.Still, you seem to be missing the point of the thread. I have no problems with BL's parsing competitively with anyone.What I have a problem with is the absolutely ludicrous flexibility they have. How many times have you run a zone, heroic, raid, whatever and said, "We'll need two healers for this one spot." and then proceeded to take two healers through the entire zone for the limited spots you'll need them? I dare say quite often.No need to do that any longer. Just load up on DPS, make sure you've got a BL, and viola. DPS when you need it, utility when you need it. You have effectively created a Rift'ish class within a structure that currently doesn't contain one. You've got a "Jack of Two Trades" who can actually master either one at will. That's an incredibly powerful change.

Fitz

12-12-2011, 06:05 PM

Cheese, If you think a broken 5% potency buff, a broken power decrease buff, a single target heal, and an infantile combat rez are utility that is even remotely competitive with a BL wards and power replenish, then I'm confused. Really the only utility I would say summoners have is shards/hearts, stoneskin (conj only, irrelevant in HM), ET, and the raid potency/hp buff. Oh, and COH, which is again conj only. BL's were intended and designed to be T1 dps, whereas summoners are a relatively recent red-headed step child to T1. Since that's the case, summoners should have their dps adjusted and given legitimate utility that is relevant to current content. When BLs parse like summoners, there is already a problem.

SisterTheresa

12-12-2011, 06:18 PM

Huh .. when do BL get a heal? Cause mine sure doesn't have one yet nor my chokodai.I guess also on AB all the high end BLd are PLed raiders seeing how fast they can get to 90 w/o getting their rear ends on fire .. cause you know .. that tells the WHOLE population how they are. And you know gear them up to make it show how ALL BLds are.So far? I'll take a Summoner over a BL. I swear, something new comes out and people complain way too much. Then one class gets nerfed or changed, then ANOTHER whines .. then they get changed and ANOTHER whines. Yeah sooo much gets done.If you play your class the way you like to, and your guild and raid mates like it, and you're happy .. who cares what other people think?

Banditman

12-12-2011, 06:21 PM

If you are unfamiliar with the end result of leveling a BL, you probably won't understand the concepts in this thread.

The_Cheeseman

12-12-2011, 06:31 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which is exactly how classes are NOT balanced. Classes have never been balanced around the "greater population" but by their theoretical maximums.Still, you seem to be missing the point of the thread. I have no problems with BL's parsing competitively with anyone.What I have a problem with is the absolutely ludicrous flexibility they have. How many times have you run a zone, heroic, raid, whatever and said, "We'll need two healers for this one spot." and then proceeded to take two healers through the entire zone for the limited spots you'll need them? I dare say quite often.No need to do that any longer. Just load up on DPS, make sure you've got a BL, and viola. DPS when you need it, utility when you need it. You have effectively created a Rift'ish class within a structure that currently doesn't contain one. You've got a "Jack of Two Trades" who can actually master either one at will. That's an incredibly powerful change.</blockquote>Honestly, I don't see this situation arising all that often. Generally, if I feel a group will need two healers for part of an instance, it's usually going to need two healers for most of it. That being said, I have my doubts about how effectively a beastlord could really fill a secondary healer role. Beastlord heals and wards are fairly weak, they are limited in use due to having to wait for weaknesses and savagery, and the primal versions have significant recast timers. Honestly, I'm not sure that a beastlord would be capable of healing a group any better than a monk with a Vitality Shift proc.Beastlords seem to be to be good personal DPS in feral stances, and good buffs in spiritual stance. In either case, they primarily improve the group's offensive power. While they do have some HP/Mana regen capabilities, I don't see them being particularly effective unless the beastlord focuses totally on them, thereby sacrificing their offensive contribution.However, as I said, there really is no data to support either of our conclusions, so we're both just making stuff up.

Silzin

12-12-2011, 08:24 PM

I think one huge reason behind peoples problem with BL's having this much versatility is that the statement of "you can't be allowed to do that much DPS since you have so much utility of since you are a tank and so survivable." this is the reason I understand for the Dirge nurf and the reason that tanks do 1/3-1/4 the dps of T1 dps classes. even if tanks go offensive they still cant hit 1/2 the dps of a T1... there is nothing a tank can do to come ANY where near the dps of a T1 dps class. if they gave any ONE healer an ability that made all of there heals do 1/10 of the healing but let them do T1 dps when they dont need to be healing... i think people would be ether loving it or screaming just as lowed for the nurb bat. But i am holding judgment on the BL's.

Banditman

12-13-2011, 11:00 AM

That is in fact, exactly the point. Utility classes, until now, have been told that the reason their DPS is so terrible is because they provide so much utility. Up until now that reasoning has been grudgingly accepted as reasonable. UNTIL NOW.They have now concentrated a lot of utility, useful utility mind you, into one class. That one class can now conceivably fill two roles in the raid. Ask any Ranger the same question: "If you could give up some DPS in order to provide utility in certain situations, would that gain you added acceptance into raid forces?" I think the answer is overwhelmingly "Yes!"."Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it." - George SantayanaBL's were a divisive influence in EQ1, and the Devs knew it. Yet here we are again.

Odys

12-19-2011, 10:42 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Beastlords]...are also the most skill-intensive class I have played. Nearly everything a beastlord does is proactive, they have very little in the way of passive buffs that benefit the group without their effort. Though they can provide some very amazing buffs, these buffs are very short duration, and can only be used during combat, so they will likely not have time to get them going on heroic trash and such. Also, they must choose between great buffs and great DPS in any given situation, they can't really do both at once.So basically, playing a beastlord is very active and requires a player who is adept at determining which buff will be most useful at any given time in a dynamic environment.</blockquote>So your argument is: Yes, Beastlords are more interesting, more dynamic, more pro-active, and more powerful than other support classes, but since most people are terrible at playing EQ2, it's not gonna matter.Well, it's an interesting spin on class balance. But since I've heard the devs repeatedly use the Potential of a class as the reason why that class needs no further help, I'm not sure the devs view it the same way.</blockquote>Claiming that Blords won't be overpowered because people will slack is quite a fascinating argument. Believe me a lot of people try to get the most they can of their toons. I know dps who train on dummies and try 100 AA setting to gain 1% dps more.The devs know that if there is a potential it will be used, even if it is borderline (mecanic abuse).

Mohee

12-20-2011, 09:10 AM

I just want my other conjuror pets to be useful <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> been broken for 5+ years is sad

urgthock

12-20-2011, 11:26 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you need DPS for your group, why not pick a summoner over a beastlord? Nobody has shown that beastlords parse any better than summoners, and summoners are at least partially effective even without their pets.</blockquote>Actually someone has. A great deal. Beastlords are going to be extremely high T1 DPS once geared equally to the summoners, rogues, predators and sorcerers currently in any particular raid guild. Go check out the BL parse thread on flames. From what I have seen they will blow away all other T1 dps in feral stance and the really good players will probably come close even when in spiritual stance.

Aklira

12-26-2011, 06:06 PM

What's really sad is that most of the BST I know are in non-raiding guilds and very often are soloists. I loved my BST in EQ1 and they were not as OP as everyone here is claiming... I died plenty and soloing just wasn't really an option once I hit level 10 or 12 (sorry it was many years ago and I'm not a spring chicken).I like that they brought the BST to EQ2 and I like the slight differences from my original BST. What I don't like is people trying to nerf my favorite class before I've even really had a chance to give it a decent 'test drive'. You're all whining and screaming about hypothetical situations. Until there are a few months of hard core facts to back your claim up with you'd be better off being quiet and seeing what happens... otherwise you could all get just what you're asking for and then there won't be any point to chosing any class over any other because they'll be jumbled mishmashed junk.Oh... and one other point for all you summoners wanting to share resistances with your 'pets' and be able to change how they look. You're forgetting one important thing... your pets are spells... with the exception of our first warder ours have to be tamed... they are 'real' animals similar to D&D's ranger companions. They fight beside us not out in front of us. They don't protect us from an enemy getting close... they get up there and help us defeat the enemy face to face.

DrkVsr

12-27-2011, 01:02 AM

Mah gnecro has personally harvested every bone that is used to make her warlock assisstant (and all the others, the scout is actually made from the smoke rising from the remains of her victims, most burnt alive), they fight for her only because she likes forcing them to do her bidding, she also doesn't stand back and let them do all the dirty work (she still wears the skull of the first person who made fun of her, fortunately it was an ogre so she can fit her entire head inside like a helmet)

Techromos

12-27-2011, 04:35 PM

<cite>Aklira wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's really sad is that most of the BST I know are in non-raiding guilds and very often are soloists. I loved my BST in EQ1 and they were not as OP as everyone here is claiming... I died plenty and soloing just wasn't really an option once I hit level 10 or 12 (sorry it was many years ago and I'm not a spring chicken).I like that they brought the BST to EQ2 and I like the slight differences from my original BST. What I don't like is people trying to nerf my favorite class before I've even really had a chance to give it a decent 'test drive'. You're all whining and screaming about hypothetical situations. Until there are a few months of hard core facts to back your claim up with you'd be better off being quiet and seeing what happens... otherwise you could all get just what you're asking for and then there won't be any point to chosing any class over any other because they'll be jumbled mishmashed junk.Oh... and one other point for all you summoners wanting to share resistances with your 'pets' and be able to change how they look. You're forgetting one important thing... your pets are spells... with the exception of our first warder ours have to be tamed... they are 'real' animals similar to D&D's ranger companions. They fight beside us not out in front of us. They don't protect us from an enemy getting close... they get up there and help us defeat the enemy face to face.</blockquote>Hey now don't be calling us cowards. I fight side by side with my pets well except that new fancy Mercenary that claims to have a will of his own. Sure mine can be said to be named after me but truth be told... I was named after them, Yes I am a necro deal with it. :PAll I want is one thing undone and I'll have no complaints thus far... REMOVE that god darn (cause the other version of that word was censored... *rolls eyes*)pup up with right clicking my pets on hotbars. I mentor a lot and I have to keep reverting back to new clickies on my bar because whatever that new thing is it keeps forcing me to summon low level pets. >_>I've partied with beast lords a few times to be honest, they seems like a class with a lot of potential and fancy do dads but they still get creamed faster then a necro using an ooze pet for a tank.Sure it would be nice to give us a lifetapping constant pet similar to the healer our brother and sister Conjies have and now the new little nephew/niece the beast lord has. But honestly people already expect us to heal and keep them alive as it is. Just because we have a 16 second dps heal, an aoe healing orb and 2 transfers. Doesn't mean we are the the replacement for a warden.----Though, I'll admit something. I want to form a group with a conjuror and a beast lord, then all of us would grab a swashbuckler merc and see if we can trio raids. Cause screw it we have damage, heals and debuffs out the wazu if done right.

Odys

01-04-2012, 11:44 AM

One issue that i see is that itemization make 1-80 200% more fun with a beastlord than with a summoner.I have a semi locked necro (like 30-32 with 80aa) i used to love her cause she could solo yellow ^^^, i also got lot of fun learning how to do it.But since i touched a beatlord i cannot play her anymore, even with the mage pet out she is 2 time slower that the Beast. I tried AOE hunting (send tank pet to attack 10 mobs and use aoe lifetap. .... ), and it was not significantly better. I tried with the scout in offensive stance, not really better.The beasty take also down orange ^^^ with ease and the figth are twice time shorter than with my necro. As example facing the Broodmother or Ulthar the fierce he just pull and kill.The only thing beasty cannot kill are (10 + levels) mobs.The situation as a lot to do with low level itemization which is extremelly biased :150 dps mod, 20% pot, 25% MA, 30% haste for the scouts versus 20% potency 5% spell haste for the necro.This gear gap between scouts/mage (or scout /priests) is simply enormous, and even if it does not exists at max level, it has a huge consequences : A scout (especially a BL) is currently twice more fun to play than a mage (or a priest).So i see newplayers and veteran willing to roll a dps class picking beastlord over conjurer almost surely <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Saving mages and priests means having 50% spell haste by level 30, at least.