Adrenaline.

[Talathion]

<p>You gave beastlords damage reduction, the same one that adrenaline did, but you said Adrenaline was way too powerful and thats the reason its a crappy Heal when hit spell, now that beastlords have not one, but 2 damage reduction spells that are very high, Adrenaline should be damage reduction again.</p><p>There spell also doesn't take all your mana away when you use it.</p>

[Brildean]

<p>They also arn't a TANK... </p>

[Anaogi]

<p>...which my guildies had to remind each other of repeatedly last night... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></p>

[LygerT]

<p>suck it up princess and accept that zerkers won't get any love until hopefully a year from now.</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>suck it up princess and accept that zerkers won't get any love until hopefully a year from now.</p></blockquote><p>I wouldent bet something will be fixed at all with zerks sadly. Why? Its a free class. Why fix a free class when you can give the paying classes cool new stuff that ppl really want? Thats the future i bet...</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>i think having a different mechanic that stacks with damage reduction is actually a good thing but there is no doubt that zerk needs a few adjustments along with sk.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>25% Damage Reduction/25% of the regeneration would be helpful.. but for them to be getting what we had before, with no penaltys is stupid.</p>

[SisterTheresa]

<p>Is this an AA line?  I don't believe I have it yet on my BL but he's only 19.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Ridolain@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is this an AA line?  I don't believe I have it yet on my BL but he's only 19.</p></blockquote><p>Its there stamina line called Chilling Armor, and it is Amazing, the entire line is what the old buckler line pretty much used to be.</p><p>They get 10% Uncontested Avoidance. (and they don't even have to use a buckler.) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />  We just get block chance now, and half the warrior class does not even use a shield.</p><p>Thirst for Blood - Sounds like a berserker skill to me. Lol.</p><p>Battleworn Resilience - Were we have Ward of Rage, Theres is basicly 100x better. :/</p><p>Lol... </p><p>These sound like berserker abilitys :/</p>

[Rageincarnate]

<p>dude.  50% damage reduction</p><p>I'm not sure why your worried about damage reduction .. you'd have to be holding agro ! /i kid i kid</p><p>I do have to admit.. i don't know any good zerkers or sk's.</p><p>I know some great pallies and brawlers.  (yes if i left this loaded.. but it's true.. i play in pugs on unrest quite a bit, and i have yet to see a wow, thats a kick butt sk or zerker in a few years)</p><p>But .. umm.. if you decided that you dont want to take damage anymore..  whats the use for healers? </p><p>I could be crazy .. but i always thought it's a healers job to keep tanks alive.  If anything.. revamp healers. </p>

[Ibuffu]

<p><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>dude.  50% damage reduction</p><p>I'm not sure why your worried about damage reduction .. you'd have to be holding agro ! /i kid i kid</p><p>I do have to admit.. i don't know any good zerkers or sk's.</p><p>I know some great pallies and brawlers.  (yes if i left this loaded.. but it's true.. i play in pugs on unrest quite a bit, and i have yet to see a wow, thats a kick butt sk or zerker in a few years)</p><p>But .. umm.. if you decided that you dont want to take damage anymore..  whats the use for healers? </p><p>I could be crazy .. but i always thought it's a healers job to keep tanks alive.  If anything.. revamp healers. </p></blockquote><p>A tanks job is to 1.  Hold Agro.  2.  Stay alive when things get out of hand.  </p><p>When adrenaline was a damage reduction, my zerker could smack that if the defiler went down and combined with emergency heals from the templar, I could live for the next 15-20 seconds while they got the defiler up and rebuffed.  Now it just takes two hard smacks back to back and down goes the tank.  The damage reduction gave the templar's heals a chance to trigger, making it a heal means I can get killed before they trigger.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>dude.  50% damage reduction</p><p>I'm not sure why your worried about damage reduction .. you'd have to be holding agro ! /i kid i kid</p><p>I do have to admit.. i don't know any good zerkers or sk's.</p><p>I know some great pallies and brawlers.  (yes if i left this loaded.. but it's true.. i play in pugs on unrest quite a bit, and i have yet to see a wow, thats a kick butt sk or zerker in a few years)</p><p>But .. umm.. if you decided that you dont want to take damage anymore..  whats the use for healers? </p><p>I could be crazy .. but i always thought it's a healers job to keep tanks alive.  If anything.. revamp healers. </p></blockquote><p>You really don't have any idea how berserkers work, do you?</p><p>Adrenaline sucks away ALL of our power. (1.)</p><p>We have the Lowest Health of all Tanks (8-10k Lower.) [Only tanks with no Health Buffs] (2.)</p><p>We have the Lowest Avoidance of All Tanks (20-40% Lower.) [We don't use a shield and don't have innate Avoidance.] (3.)</p><p>We have the Lowest Mitigation of all Tanks (5% lower then even Brawlers.) [We can't use defensive stance because its tied to our DPS/Accuracy, which we have the lowest of all Tanks Still.] (4.)</p><p>Berserkers abilitys kill ourselves when we use them, or have a huge detrimental, Adrenaline takes away 5% Power every 2 seconds for 30 Seconds. (5.)</p><p>Adrenaline is our special ability we had, and now they have it, and took ours Away.</p>

[Felshades]

<p>As much as I hate to agree with Talathion(shudders) I have to.</p><p>Adrenaline isn't as useful as it used to be, and the power drain is completely BS when you're in a group without an enchanter(not everything revolves around raids unfortunately).</p>

[Rageincarnate]

<p>i would love to see a parse of hit rates in a normal orange con heroic dungeon in defensive and offensive. </p><p>Talk is worthless to me anyways and reading abilities text descriptions, without seeing them actually in use is not much better.</p>

[Rageincarnate]

<p>[We can't use defensive stance because its tied to our DPS/Accuracy, which we have the lowest of all Tanks Still.]</p><p>That seems to be a more of a problem then everything else you have described.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>They are a scout not a tank certain short temp buff life saving abilites can be better then a tank class. Look at the rogues old shield line it was an amazing tank line for a tank.</p>

[Tekadeo]

<p>Isnt it odd that since SoE neutered one ability, we have become the worst tank class?  Seriously, I have rolled and maxed out 2 other tanks because of this (Monk and Guardian) and my Zerker doesnt get as much love anymore even tho it's my favorite class.</p><p>I'm not going to complain about a scout getting good tank buffs, it is irrelevant.  But do I want my Zerker to matter again?  H-Y-F-R.  Ask Wayne what that means.</p>

[Gaealiege]

<p>Sadly, I too agree with Talathion here.  The reasoning for pushing this out was that it is overpowered.  It wasn't berserkers have this, which are tanks, therefore it's overpowered.  The TRUE reason it was nerfed was that berserkers were living through INSTANT death mechanics.  Well guess F***ing what?  Now beastlords can.  SO UNDER THE SAME PRINCIPLE, theirs is overpowered. </p><p>I appreciate any that disagree here.  Your points however are invalid given the above.  This is absolutely pathetic, STUPID design.  Good god, Sony.  Sony's the beast that craps in its own mouth.</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sadly, I too agree with Talathion here.  The reasoning for pushing this out was that it is overpowered.  It wasn't berserkers have this, which are tanks, therefore it's overpowered.  The TRUE reason it was nerfed was that berserkers were living through INSTANT death mechanics.  Well guess F***ing what?  Now beastlords can.  SO UNDER THE SAME PRINCIPLE, theirs is overpowered. </p><p>I appreciate any that disagree here.  Your points however are invalid given the above.  This is absolutely pathetic, STUPID design.  Good god, Sony.  Sony's the beast that craps in its own mouth.</p></blockquote><p>We did live through instant death mechanics... There wasent much of those in SF. The biggest reason for it was to make guardians better. And Adrenaline was OP at its time but would not be as OP now since a stone skin is better this expack. And with all the power draining raid mobs and so on... And bl wont be able to live through death mechs now either... Something need to be done at zerks atm they are in a very bad shape (as raid tanks) atm.</p>

[CoolBreeze]

<p><cite>Netty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sadly, I too agree with Talathion here.  The reasoning for pushing this out was that it is overpowered.  It wasn't berserkers have this, which are tanks, therefore it's overpowered.  The TRUE reason it was nerfed was that berserkers were living through INSTANT death mechanics.  Well guess F***ing what?  Now beastlords can.  SO UNDER THE SAME PRINCIPLE, theirs is overpowered. </p><p>I appreciate any that disagree here.  Your points however are invalid given the above.  This is absolutely pathetic, STUPID design.  Good god, Sony.  Sony's the beast that craps in its own mouth.</p></blockquote><p>We did live through instant death mechanics... There wasent much of those in SF. The biggest reason for it was to make guardians better. And Adrenaline was OP at its time but would not be as OP now since a stone skin is better this expack. And with all the power draining raid mobs and so on... And bl wont be able to live through death mechs now either... Something need to be done at zerks atm they are in a very bad shape (as raid tanks) atm.</p></blockquote><p>That is absolutely not the case. Instant death means instant death, if someone survives a so called "instant death mechanic" it's not because of an ability, it's because the developers miscalculated. If you want to be sure someone dies in a video game, and you're the programmer, it's not that hard - hit them with an effect that does 60 million times their total health in damage, if you want to be really sure make it a dot that hits 10 times in a second or just set their hit points to zero. I've both used and watched adrenaline used in a raid when it was supposedly 'overpowered', it was definitely nice, to be sure, but I've seen tanks die while it and every other available buff were all being used. Fail conditions were still functioning.</p><p>Adrenaline was nerfed for other reasons. The two primary reasons were that it really was a little overpowered in pvp and a lot of players were complaining loudly about that and the fact that end-game geared berserkers were soloing heroic zones and duoing raid zones (content that was at that point becoming obsolete anyway). The pvp complaints were mostly justifiable, the others, not so much, at least half of the tank classes were doing the same thing - and some still are. Player complaints are what got adrenaline nerfed. It had nothing to do with whether or not it was really overpowered. In fact, lets get real, the ability had been around for 3 years, if it was that overpowered why weren't berserkers getting that much advantage out of it in the previous two tiers?</p><p>To be honest, SF gear was responsible for most of the problem, tanks could have so many heal and ward procs they hardly needed healing at all and this really offset a berserker's natural deficits. Current gear isn't anywhere near as versatile (at least the gear that is available to more than a handful of tanks on any server at the moment) and therefore the problem doesn't exist any more, but for good measure they sent 'zerkers back to the back of the bus anyway. (You bad berserkers, making people cry like that. No more adrenaline for you.)</p><p>I like the idea of putting some of the damage prevention back into adrenaline, say 30%, with a 20% heal and maybe the numbers could be reversed in pvp. But the real problem with the class is that berserkers are just crappy tanks. I do love my berserker, but it's a fact. Adrenaline made them a lot less crappy, but I'm pretty sure putting it back the way it was wouldn't fix the problem now. Really, losing one ability (or rather, making a rather minor change in the way it works) shouldn't have turned one of the 'best tank classes' into one of the 'worst', and it didn't. The changes in mechanics combined with the new DoV gear that had almost no procs that could be used to bolster the class's weaknesses is what did that. However, it shouldn't take procs to make a class able to do it's job, that just shows that the class has underlying flaws which need to be addressed.</p>

[Netty]

<p>Its supose to be Dident* not did. My keyboard is abit wacked <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And why i said stone skins are better on those thigs since if the hit is as high as it is anyway you might get killed. All tho the damage reduction will help out a great deal.</p><p>Zerks need more than Adrenaline fix to be a good option for a tank but its always a start. Been raiding with my guard this expack but wanted to gear the zerk up again since i have always been forced to tank with other tank classes other than sf (in raids) Not forced but they just dident cut it. Took a break in tso got burned out from raiding 4 times a week at that time on my guard that was so super in tso... SF for the first time being able to tank very well on my zerk. MT all cont HM as EM -wing 2 and 3 in the hole since i no longer raided as much as befor. Its the first time i feelt like that zerk could preform well on raids. Atm its abit of a joke really hit rates are junk hate is junk surrvivability is a junk and im getting told my zerk is the hardest of all tanks we have to heal. Luckly i dont MT with him atm as our monk now MT but zerks do need help... I dont really expect it to come at all or any time soon tho sadly...</p><p>Was so happy at first when we dident have that much info on the expack. Since like every expack you get new AA that most of the time fix a few of the unbalanced stuff and thats the reason why i wanted to change back to my zerk over the guard. And now here we are since it was more importent to make 16 pet AA trees and get the BL class out there was no time to fix anything. And atm i have heard they are looking into pvp balance... it will take ages if any change is coming to the zerk class. If any are coming at all that is.</p>

[CoolBreeze]

<p><cite>Netty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its supose to be Dident* not did. My keyboard is abit wacked <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />  And why i said stone skins are better on those thigs since if the hit is as high as it is anyway you might get killed. All tho the damage reduction will help out a great deal.</p><p>Zerks need more than Adrenaline fix to be a good option for a tank but its always a start. Been raiding with my guard this expack but wanted to gear the zerk up again since i have always been forced to tank with other tank classes other than sf (in raids) Not forced but they just dident cut it. Took a break in tso got burned out from raiding 4 times a week at that time on my guard that was so super in tso... SF for the first time being able to tank very well on my zerk. MT all cont HM as EM -wing 2 and 3 in the hole since i no longer raided as much as befor. Its the first time i feelt like that zerk could preform well on raids. Atm its abit of a joke really hit rates are junk hate is junk surrvivability is a junk and im getting told my zerk is the hardest of all tanks we have to heal. Luckly i dont MT with him atm as our monk now MT but zerks do need help... I dont really expect it to come at all or any time soon tho sadly...</p><p>Was so happy at first when we dident have that much info on the expack. Since like every expack you get new AA that most of the time fix a few of the unbalanced stuff and thats the reason why i wanted to change back to my zerk over the guard. And now here we are since it was more importent to make 16 pet AA trees and get the BL class out there was no time to fix anything. And atm i have heard they are looking into pvp balance... it will take ages if any change is coming to the zerk class. If any are coming at all that is.</p></blockquote><p>I get what you're saying now and I totally agree with you. Your observations are actually very similar to mine. Personally, I'm all for having Adrenaline put back just like it was, because as I said, there was nothing about Adrenaline by itself that made it overpowered and at this point it wouldn't even really fix Berserkers, it would just make them a little more playable. However, that would an admission that someone overreacted and nerfing it was a mistake in the first place, something that's not likely to happen. Which is why I think some kind of compromise would be a good idea.</p><p>They need to realise that pvp and pve are totally different and they're never going to achieve perfect balance between them in a way that will make characters balanced while having identical features and abilities in both. They've done that with equipment already; they just need to expand on the concept a bit. Adrenaline is a good example of why it's necessary.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>No, they nerfed Adrenaline because it was extremely OP'd.  It was a single ability that could do what Guards/Brawlers do with lots of different abilities.</p><p>Think about the DoV AEs that are the one shot mechanics.  Adrenaline for half the time would neutralize them to the point they could easily be taken for half the time.  Not just going through one round of AEs, but instead an ability that would last through multiple rounds of AEs plus last for while the mob is hammering on them.</p><p>A one button win ability like that needed to change.  Not saying that Zerkers don't need a little something more.  But really when you look at it...its not the Crusaders and Zerkers that are the problem.  They require healers and other group members to cooperate much better and use abilities like an MMO should.  The problem is the other 3 Fighters that don't require that type of cooperative play at all.</p><p>Than just fix the stupid DPS disparity in the game between classes and you could actually have a game that works alright.  Been more than a year and with other games bringing something new SOE doesn't seem to be doing itself any favors by not fixing the issues.</p>

[epyon333]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Think about the DoV AEs that are the one shot mechanics.  Adrenaline for half the time would neutralize them to the point they could easily be taken for half the time.  Not just going through one round of AEs, but instead an ability that would last through multiple rounds of AEs plus last for while the mob is hammering on them.</p></blockquote><p>So your saying an ability that had questionable usefulness because of the huge power suck sunden became extreamly overpowered not because the ability was change but an xpac came out?</p><p>Actually i remember zerks asking to have the power suck reduced so that i could be more useful.</p><p>Really? </p><p>And what zerkers (one of the weakest tanks in groups and raid) finally have something that could be considered overpowered so SOE has to steal it and give a better version of it to another class.</p>

[Netty]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, they nerfed Adrenaline because it was extremely OP'd.  It was a single ability that could do what Guards/Brawlers do with lots of different abilities.</p><p>Think about the DoV AEs that are the one shot mechanics.  Adrenaline for half the time would neutralize them to the point they could easily be taken for half the time.  Not just going through one round of AEs, but instead an ability that would last through multiple rounds of AEs plus last for while the mob is hammering on them.</p><p>A one button win ability like that needed to change.  Not saying that Zerkers don't need a little something more.  But really when you look at it...its not the Crusaders and Zerkers that are the problem.  They require healers and other group members to cooperate much better and use abilities like an MMO should.  The problem is the other 3 Fighters that don't require that type of cooperative play at all.</p><p>Than just fix the stupid DPS disparity in the game between classes and you could actually have a game that works alright.  Been more than a year and with other games bringing something new SOE doesn't seem to be doing itself any favors by not fixing the issues.</p></blockquote><p>Then i guess crusaders dont need anything you got manawall right? Half the damage on Adrenaline but a pure avoidance skill will fast recast is still way better. The aoes that one shot a stoneskin is way better. Adrenaline made zerks work as a tank. In todays game it wouldent be as overpowered with all the power drain death touch and not to talk about no more stonewill items. You tought it was op and you are the one crying for a nerf yes i rember that time just like you are trying to nerf all other fighters now to put SK:s on top again. Not to talk about the low block chance zerkers have so we get hit alot more. Tallon finaly quit so thats a huge step for the zerker class now its only you left with your bs claims and stuff. I dont care what you say but a sk atm is 100% better than a zerk.</p><p>Lets see can do all with one button? that a brawler and guard could? We can start to count in ALOT higher avoidance. Temp avoidance buffs that will not cut melee in half it will remove it. Usefull stoneskins that can block that aoe instead of half it. In now im not counting in all the power drain that kinda much every raid worth has. Oh i did forget to add the lowest health of all tanks. Im on pair with the dps classes or under with my zerk how is yours?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Netty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No, they nerfed Adrenaline because it was extremely OP'd.  It was a single ability that could do what Guards/Brawlers do with lots of different abilities.</p><p>Think about the DoV AEs that are the one shot mechanics.  Adrenaline for half the time would neutralize them to the point they could easily be taken for half the time.  Not just going through one round of AEs, but instead an ability that would last through multiple rounds of AEs plus last for while the mob is hammering on them.</p><p>A one button win ability like that needed to change.  Not saying that Zerkers don't need a little something more.  But really when you look at it...its not the Crusaders and Zerkers that are the problem.  They require healers and other group members to cooperate much better and use abilities like an MMO should.  The problem is the other 3 Fighters that don't require that type of cooperative play at all.</p><p>Than just fix the stupid DPS disparity in the game between classes and you could actually have a game that works alright.  Been more than a year and with other games bringing something new SOE doesn't seem to be doing itself any favors by not fixing the issues.</p></blockquote><p>Then i guess crusaders dont need anything you got manawall right? Half the damage on Adrenaline but a pure avoidance skill will fast recast is still way better. The aoes that one shot a stoneskin is way better. Adrenaline made zerks work as a tank. In todays game it wouldent be as overpowered with all the power drain death touch and not to talk about no more stonewill items. You tought it was op and you are the one crying for a nerf yes i rember that time just like you are trying to nerf all other fighters now to put SK:s on top again. Not to talk about the low block chance zerkers have so we get hit alot more. Tallon finaly quit so thats a huge step for the zerker class now its only you left with your bs claims and stuff. I dont care what you say but a sk atm is 100% better than a zerk.</p><p>Lets see can do all with one button? that a brawler and guard could? We can start to count in ALOT higher avoidance. Temp avoidance buffs that will not cut melee in half it will remove it. Usefull stoneskins that can block that aoe instead of half it. In now im not counting in all the power drain that kinda much every raid worth has. Oh i did forget to add the lowest health of all tanks. Im on pair with the dps classes or under with my zerk how is yours?</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I am sure that Adrenaline was nerfed just because I "thought" it was OP'd.  The fact that you are trying to compare the pre-DoV Adrenaline to Manawall is just plain ridiculous as well.  Lets see, one ability that if you are extremely lucky might stoneskin 1 hit.  Or an ability that literally halved the damage you took for 50% of the time.....</p><p>No, what I did is point out early the fact of Adrenaline being up as often as it could be with the new SF AAs in SF beta was OP'd.  Which obviously it was.  My goal at that time was to stretch out the reuse so that the ability couldn't be up literally half the time.  The power drain was negligable and even in DoV with lots of power drains you could still have np keeping the abililty up the full duration while everybody else is feeding you hate.</p><p>And really...you are on par with your zerk for DPS?  Good one.</p><p>Instead of whining and crying about Adrenaline, which will never be restored to its massively OP'd state.  You should focus on getting that 1 more stoneskin.  Or more importantly....start looking at why 3 of the Fighters are so fricken good in the game while the other 3 are lacking.  Than instead of beefing all the Fighters up to that level putting defensive healers in an almost useless position focus on really balancing the classes.  Instead in typical SOE style we are waiting way way way too long even though the imbalance was glaringly obvious right in DoV beta.  And now when they do make changes it will be nerfs on one side and beefing up the other which will just swing things the wrong way again.  This game has gotten to a sickened state and Fighter balance is the huge cherry on top it seems.</p>

[Netty]

<p>Adrenaline this expansion same as it was befor would be useless on somethings and not up for half the time as you claim. You raid dont you? You know yourself how much power drain that are in this expansion. And i find it funny that you cant see the diff in halfing a aoe or just stone skin it. The low block chance a zerker have aswell means less block so even if i get to have it up from time to time i bet you i still would take alot more damage and ofcs do alot lower dps since warrior dps is when DWing and losing all block. If you read what i said befor in pair with dps class im talking about health.. Most dps classes have even more health than a zerk. since %ish healh increas is so OP this expack.</p><p>Manawall thingie was to show how useless stuff are this expansion that eat power. It all comes down to the power drain put on 80% of the raid mobs...</p><p>A death touch and try and counter it with Adrenaline? GL. So yes it wouldent be as OP as it was in SF.</p>