Firemyst Gully

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Is there any lore as to <strong>WHY</strong> there <em>was/is</em> a Contingent of Dwarves there? Where they creating a Mine/Town or where they just dispatched there last minute?</span></p>

[kelvmor]

<p>I just assumed that the dwarves had wanted to use the place to make a more dwarf-like town for the Qeynosian dwarves.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Possibly, but they didn't get far other than a tent and a fence, and you have to wonder why they chose to defend an area cut off from a fall-back position like they did.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Around the gate would have been more defensible <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span></p>

[kelvmor]

<p>You know, I think I might take a look at those quests later today and see if I missed anything in the dialogues.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p>Sorry for double posting, but...</p><p>What I found here is that a brigade of Dwarven knights (plus one human) has a constant war with Antonica's undead. The brigade had a contingent that lead into Firemyst Gully, where they wanted to cleanse it of undead, and then do who the heck knows what with it afterwards (though I'd hope they'd build a dwarven settlement, ala Fort Irontoe, but with more tunnels).</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Not a Double-post if there is new Info IMHO. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That makes since, however, where they set up the post isn't, the method of Egress could easily be blocked, when you are fighting undead, the <strong>last thing</strong> you want to do, is fight to the last man. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You will soon be facing your fallen comrades-in-arms.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Best bet is to whittle them down back off (Through the gate)as needed.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Sorry my mind went into RTS mode.  (Real Time Strategy  ala Starcraft2)</span></p>

[Rainmare]

<p>except your forgetting they are dwarves.</p><p>dwarves do NOT retreat.</p><p>take alook at the dwarven chainmail HQ. the dwarves went into a fight they knew they couldn't win, becuase they refused to retreat.</p><p>the serillian horde had to slaughter every last dwarf in Kaladim, becuase they refuse to retreat or surrender. they don't do hide and seek resistance movement guerrila warfare.</p><p>the Irontoe forts are basically the supply/staging area for D-day type seige/invasion of Kaladim...the dwarves have no intention of staying there, or probably even using those forts once Kaladim gets reclaimed.</p><p>and if I remember right..the staging area in firemyst is much bigger then the zone in point. so they probably needed the added room to setup properly.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Except it wouldn't be a true retreat, just giving a less defensible position for a surperior one (Top of the gate perhaps so they can drop rocks on them from above) and have betting contest over head-shots with Ale.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Dwarven fighting spirit =/= stupidity.</span></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>except your forgetting they are dwarves.</p><p>dwarves do NOT retreat.</p><p>take alook at the dwarven chainmail HQ. the dwarves went into a fight they knew they couldn't win, becuase they refused to retreat.</p><p>the serillian horde had to slaughter every last dwarf in Kaladim, becuase they refuse to retreat or surrender. they don't do hide and seek resistance movement guerrila warfare.</p><p>the Irontoe forts are basically the supply/staging area for D-day type seige/invasion of Kaladim...the dwarves have no intention of staying there, or probably even using those forts once Kaladim gets reclaimed.</p><p>and if I remember right..the staging area in firemyst is much bigger then the zone in point. so they probably needed the added room to setup properly.</p></blockquote><p>Actually the quests the dwarves sending you into Kaladim have you doing a lot of guerrila warfare type surgical strikes against potential threats to an invading army. They certainly arn't asking the players to fight the war for them, but they don't seem to mind softning up the hord before they march.</p><p>Also Fort Irontoe seems to be more of a holding action. You see a lot of prep work for a larger army. What you don't see is any recruits being trained. It doesn't look like they have enough dwarves to be a credible threat to Thurgadin. Between Fort Irontoe and Gnomeland Security, I'd say the gnomes have a better chance of retaking their home city because the gnomes seem to be better organized and more active. Though, fighting against a force that can just rebuild fallen comrads is a bit more difficult. Then again, those same troops could be reprogrammed to fight for your side. Another Dark Reflection, but this time in reverse.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Hmmm Perhaps the Fort Irontoe needs to have some recruits going through drills ans patrols?</span></p>

[Fugazl]

<p>Dwarves are trying to make amends with the gnoll. The battle of serillis vs serillis is going to happen one day, and the gnolls are prolly one of the best allies for the in-family battle.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>except your forgetting they are dwarves.</p><p>dwarves do NOT retreat.</p><p>take alook at the dwarven chainmail HQ. the dwarves went into a fight they knew they couldn't win, becuase they refused to retreat.</p><p>the serillian horde had to slaughter every last dwarf in Kaladim, becuase they refuse to retreat or surrender. they don't do hide and seek resistance movement guerrila warfare.</p><p>the Irontoe forts are basically the supply/staging area for D-day type seige/invasion of Kaladim...the dwarves have no intention of staying there, or probably even using those forts once Kaladim gets reclaimed.</p><p>and if I remember right..the staging area in firemyst is much bigger then the zone in point. so they probably needed the added room to setup properly.</p></blockquote><p>Actually the quests the dwarves sending you into Kaladim have you doing a lot of guerrila warfare type surgical strikes against potential threats to an invading army. They certainly arn't asking the players to fight the war for them, but they don't seem to mind softning up the hord before they march.</p><p>Also Fort Irontoe seems to be more of a holding action. You see a lot of prep work for a larger army. What you don't see is any recruits being trained. <strong>It doesn't look like they have enough dwarves to be a credible threat to <em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Thurgadin.</span></em></strong> Between Fort Irontoe and Gnomeland Security, I'd say the gnomes have a better chance of retaking their home city because the gnomes seem to be better organized and more active. Though, fighting against a force that can just rebuild fallen comrads is a bit more difficult. Then again, those same troops could be reprogrammed to fight for your side. Another Dark Reflection, but this time in reverse.</p></blockquote><p>What.</p><p>Thurgadin was on great terms with the Kaladim dwarves, last I remember, and I'm sure they're on good terms with the Irontoe Brigade. Unless you meant to type Kaladim.</p><p>Also, IMHO, the names Thurgadin and Kaladim should be switched. Kala is Norse for frost, and Thurg is a corruption of the Norse word for Thor, god of thunder. You'd think that since ice dwarves live on Velious, their city would be Kaladim, while the city of the Stormhammer kings would be called Thurgadin.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>except your forgetting they are dwarves.</p><p>dwarves do NOT retreat.</p><p>take alook at the dwarven chainmail HQ. the dwarves went into a fight they knew they couldn't win, becuase they refused to retreat.</p><p>the serillian horde had to slaughter every last dwarf in Kaladim, becuase they refuse to retreat or surrender. they don't do hide and seek resistance movement guerrila warfare.</p><p>the Irontoe forts are basically the supply/staging area for D-day type seige/invasion of Kaladim...the dwarves have no intention of staying there, or probably even using those forts once Kaladim gets reclaimed.</p><p>and if I remember right..the staging area in firemyst is much bigger then the zone in point. so they probably needed the added room to setup properly.</p></blockquote><p>Actually the quests the dwarves sending you into Kaladim have you doing a lot of guerrila warfare type surgical strikes against potential threats to an invading army. They certainly arn't asking the players to fight the war for them, but they don't seem to mind softning up the hord before they march.</p><p>Also Fort Irontoe seems to be more of a holding action. You see a lot of prep work for a larger army. What you don't see is any recruits being trained. <strong>It doesn't look like they have enough dwarves to be a credible threat to <em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Thurgadin.</span></em></strong> Between Fort Irontoe and Gnomeland Security, I'd say the gnomes have a better chance of retaking their home city because the gnomes seem to be better organized and more active. Though, fighting against a force that can just rebuild fallen comrads is a bit more difficult. Then again, those same troops could be reprogrammed to fight for your side. Another Dark Reflection, but this time in reverse.</p></blockquote><p>What.</p><p>Thurgadin was on great terms with the Kaladim dwarves, last I remember, and I'm sure they're on good terms with the Irontoe Brigade. Unless you meant to type Kaladim.</p><p>Also, IMHO, the names Thurgadin and Kaladim should be switched. Kala is Norse for frost, and Thurg is a corruption of the Norse word for Thor, god of thunder. You'd think that since ice dwarves live on Velious, their city would be Kaladim, while the city of the Stormhammer kings would be called Thurgadin.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I have a bad habit of typing Thurgadin when I mean to say Kaladim. Best chance the Dwarves have to take back Kaladim would be if either the coldain decide to help (not likely at all), or if the Vault of Brell is found and King Stormhammer is convinced to return (if the Kaladim dwarves did indeed find the Vault).</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>that's what I meant. the Forts are teh D-day invasion point. thier holding the area, setting the stage for Stormhammer and the rest of Kaladim to come marching home.</p><p>but i do imagine that recruits and such are being trained and outfitted. they just aren't 'shown' in game. and while they do allow YOU to do guerrilla warfare tactics on Kaladim. you notice it's mostly becuaswe your looking for work, they see your usefulness, and ship you out. the dwarves themselves aren't making plans.</p><p>they basically say we know about X leader...kill him. or blow up some supplies. don't care how you do it, just get it done.</p><p>everytime I did those quests it always gave me the impression of them just throwing busywork my way to get me out of thier hair for real planning. like how to get through the front doors enmasse.</p><p>the funny thing is eq1 did have dwarve rogues. but they didn't hide themselves at all. a dwarf rogue was less a sneaky assassin and more a braggard swashy then anything. they were proud to be part of the miner's guild and made no effort to hide it.</p><p>dwarves just aren't subtle when it comes to battles. the Kaladim dwarven war strat seems to be hit it with a hammer, and if it keeps moving, hit it with a bigger hammer. rinse repeat until the hammer gets to big to pick up a larger one..and if that happens, grab a buddy and hit it with two hammers.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You make them sound like Ogres back when their intelligence was cursed, however Dwarves <strong>DO</strong> have survival instincts <em>(and common sense)</em> like anybody else, while they may not be likley to RUN they understand the concept of excahnging a bad battlefield to one they can actually use! (Like the top of a Wall/the gate)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Ala <em>"To the top of the wall! <strong>This will be a more fitting stand aganst these walking bonepiles!</strong>"</em></span></p><p><cite>Boog@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dwarves are trying to make amends with the gnoll. The battle of serillis vs serillis is going to happen one day, and the gnolls are prolly one of the best allies for the in-family battle.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Agreed! might even work as a Pretext/prelude for a player Gnoll Race </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I can see Blackburrow being taken-over/renovated by Orcs, and the Gnolls are forced to seek shelter and an alliance with Qeynos from a mutual threat, with the Dwarves lead by Brell's mouthpiece leading the negotiations.</span></p>

[Fugazl]

<p>Kaladim?!?! is proof they need some help. </p>

[kelvmor]

<p>After everything that's happened over the centuries between Qeynos and the Sabertooth/Darkpaw gnolls, along with the countless gnoll plots and alliances with Freeport, I just don't see why Qeynos would ever bother accepting an enemy like that in their walls. The gnolls (at least this particular clan) always have, and always will be IMO, the enemies of Qeynos. Countless times they've tried to invade, or blow it up, etc. etc. It's like me trying to say that Lucan would take in the Bloodskull or Deathfist orcs, or Kelethin would let in the Crushbone. It just wouldn't happen after all those centuries of animosity and hostility.</p><p>And don't try to counter with that Freeblood crap (that lore is still really awful). They still haven't bothered to tell us why the Temple of Life just doesn't go Crusade mode and kill them all. And since Fyst is dead, who would invade Blackburrow? The Deathfist Orcs would much rather keep their strength on Zek, if the Shiny Brass Shield HQ is any indication. True, perhaps another Emperor will rise and the Deathfist war machine will invariably march again, and the nearest target is Karan, but an invasion by the Deathfist would be more likely to spread quickly enough that the gnolls wouldn't survive very long. Provided the Qeynosian navy doesn't repel the Deathfist war galleys, and that the gnolls would take the opportunity while Qeynos's back is turned to attack. Heck, an alliance might even happen; the Sabertooth would certainly love to see Qeynos fall, and if the orcs were to invade Karan, Qeynos would be their primary target.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">The Difference is that Orcs now have access to more reinforcements Ro, Faydark, Velious, Frostfang.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>I'm not saying that things would be hunhy-dory between Qeynosians and the Darkpaw</em></span>, but better being back to back with an enemy you know then the enemy you don't.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Especially of the Orc's got into Blackburrow by pretending to Parlay and have it go horribly wrong. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Also a mutual enemy would give the back-story needed for the Qeynos Revamp, and perhaps "overtures" from Lucan. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[Fugazl]

<p>In regards to  Lucan,</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Batman</span>: You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. I can do those things because I'm not a hero, like Dent. I killed those people. That's what I can be.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Lt. James Gordon</span>: No, you can't! You're not!</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Batman</span>: I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be</p><p><a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/quotes?qt=qt0498896" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569...es?qt=qt0498896</a></p><p>That's how I see Lucan sometimes. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[kelvmor]

<p>The Ry'Gorr, I think, would be less willing to have anything to do with the Deathfist. The Crushbone offend the Deathfist Empire's sensibilities (they're lead by a dark elf, ffs). The Rujarkians are probably the most believable for reinforcements.</p>

[ratbast]

<p><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You make them sound like Ogres back when their intelligence was cursed, however Dwarves <strong>DO</strong> have survival instincts <em>(and common sense)</em> like anybody else, while they may not be likley to RUN they understand the concept of excahnging a bad battlefield to one they can actually use! (Like the top of a Wall/the gate)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Ala <em>"To the top of the wall! <strong>This will be a more fitting stand aganst these walking bonepiles!</strong>"</em></span></p><p><cite>Boog@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dwarves are trying to make amends with the gnoll. The battle of serillis vs serillis is going to happen one day, and the gnolls are prolly one of the best allies for the in-family battle.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Agreed! might even work as a Pretext/prelude for a player Gnoll Race </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I can see Blackburrow being taken-over/renovated by Orcs, and the Gnolls are forced to seek shelter and an alliance with Qeynos from a mutual threat, with the Dwarves lead by Brell's mouthpiece leading the negotiations.</span></p></blockquote><p>"arguably subhuman" player races need to start in either their home contested dungeon or city of Haven. Gnolls havent built the bridge of human kindness to any player cities. Until world events change that, they shouldnt start there. the only exception would be neriak, where gnolls are duped into citizenship but are really slaves, or gorowyn since they just dont care.</p><p>Gnolls have bb and splitpaw, so there are options even if one of their burrows was overrun.</p><p>From lore standpoint, throwing gnolls into qeynos would result in civil war. I have wondered about Brell's races and their warring. Seems like thats a pretty big rift in religion, its like finding out your husband has another wife and kids in the next town over. How do you make sense of that while staying loyal to your creator? dwarves, gnolls, goblins, gnomes. bugbears and ratonga too? seems dwarves would have a complicated attitude towards their god, and plenty of them worshipping outside their creator. or maybe a cover-up religious dogma, such as blaming brells brother for the 'evil' races creation.</p>

[Fugazl]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You make them sound like Ogres back when their intelligence was cursed, however Dwarves <strong>DO</strong> have survival instincts <em>(and common sense)</em> like anybody else, while they may not be likley to RUN they understand the concept of excahnging a bad battlefield to one they can actually use! (Like the top of a Wall/the gate)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Ala <em>"To the top of the wall! <strong>This will be a more fitting stand aganst these walking bonepiles!</strong>"</em></span></p><p><cite>Boog@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dwarves are trying to make amends with the gnoll. The battle of serillis vs serillis is going to happen one day, and the gnolls are prolly one of the best allies for the in-family battle.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Agreed! might even work as a Pretext/prelude for a player Gnoll Race </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I can see Blackburrow being taken-over/renovated by Orcs, and the Gnolls are forced to seek shelter and an alliance with Qeynos from a mutual threat, with the Dwarves lead by Brell's mouthpiece leading the negotiations.</span></p></blockquote><p>"arguably subhuman" player races need to start in either their home contested dungeon or city of Haven. Gnolls havent built the bridge of human kindness to any player cities. Until world events change that, they shouldnt start there. the only exception would be neriak, where gnolls are duped into citizenship but are really slaves, or gorowyn since they just dont care.</p><p>Gnolls have bb and splitpaw, so there are options even if one of their burrows was overrun.</p><p>From lore standpoint, throwing gnolls into qeynos would result in civil war. I have wondered about Brell's races and their warring. Seems like thats a pretty big rift in religion, its like finding out your husband has another wife and kids in the next town over. How do you make sense of that while staying loyal to your creator? dwarves, gnolls, goblins, gnomes. bugbears and ratonga too? seems dwarves would have a complicated attitude towards their god, and plenty of them worshipping outside their creator. or maybe a cover-up religious dogma, such as blaming brells brother for the 'evil' races creation.</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/library-of-mayong-book/" target="_blank">6. Those from below shall attempt to further their agenda below the throne of Brell. "Most assuredly the ratonga. Our network of informants has indicated that they are up to something in the ancient dwarven halls of Kaladim. -SV"</a></p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You make them sound like Ogres back when their intelligence was cursed, however Dwarves <strong>DO</strong> have survival instincts <em>(and common sense)</em> like anybody else, while they may not be likley to RUN they understand the concept of excahnging a bad battlefield to one they can actually use! (Like the top of a Wall/the gate)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Ala <em>"To the top of the wall! <strong>This will be a more fitting stand aganst these walking bonepiles!</strong>"</em></span></p><p><cite>Boog@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dwarves are trying to make amends with the gnoll. The battle of serillis vs serillis is going to happen one day, and the gnolls are prolly one of the best allies for the in-family battle.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Agreed! might even work as a Pretext/prelude for a player Gnoll Race </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I can see Blackburrow being taken-over/renovated by Orcs, and the Gnolls are forced to seek shelter and an alliance with Qeynos from a mutual threat, with the Dwarves lead by Brell's mouthpiece leading the negotiations.</span></p></blockquote><p>"arguably subhuman" player races need to start in either their home contested dungeon or city of Haven. Gnolls havent built the bridge of human kindness to any player cities. Until world events change that, they shouldnt start there. the only exception would be neriak, where gnolls are duped into citizenship but are really slaves, or gorowyn since they just dont care.</p><p>Gnolls have bb and splitpaw, so there are options even if one of their burrows was overrun.</p><p>From lore standpoint, throwing gnolls into qeynos would result in civil war. I have wondered about Brell's races and their warring. Seems like thats a pretty big rift in religion, its like finding out your husband has another wife and kids in the next town over. How do you make sense of that while staying loyal to your creator? dwarves, gnolls, goblins, gnomes. bugbears and ratonga too? seems dwarves would have a complicated attitude towards their god, and plenty of them worshipping outside their creator. or maybe a cover-up religious dogma, such as blaming brells brother for the 'evil' races creation.</p></blockquote><p>Just because you worship the same diety isn't a good reason to be friends. Dwarves and other underdark races all compete for the same resources. They also compete for the love of Brell. Each and every one of Brell's races are convinced that Brell made them in his image. Well, maybe not the Gnomes.</p><p>But Dwarves are avid miners. They invade caves populated by the other Underdark races. They made enemies of every race that participated in the invasion of Kaladim. The Roeklik were just smart enough to use that shared animosity to forge an alliance and strike when most of the dwarves were away.</p><p>As for a player race of Gnolls, the 2 most likely sources would be Splitpaw and Icepaw gnolls. The Velious Gnolls don't have animosity towards player races or Coldain. The Splitpaw actively seek out help from players against the more evil elements of a Splitpaw schism.</p><p>Gorowin would be a natural starting place for Gnolls, more so than Nerriak. Teir'dal are considered an underdark race as well since they started underground and compete for space in the underdark as well. For good aligned gnolls New Halas would be the most accepting. If any being declaired they were on pilgramige to Erollisi's shrine I think they would be allowed. Love is blind.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Or we could go Icepaw Gnolls in New Halas which has heavy Dwarven roots, not to mention, other then the starving cannibles they have been well disposed to Adventureres since Everquest I.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">And unlike the other Gnoll's they've been pushed to the edge (and probably lost most of their tradeskillers and are only now relearning the process of making items)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Which means sending pups away from them so that they might have a better chance at survival.</span></p>

[kelvmor]

<p>Meh. I agree though, if you <em>must </em>insist on a gnoll player race, the only way it's going to happen (not including the MASSIVE RESTRUCTURING of the gnoll models in the game) lore-wise is to either have the Snowfang or the Splitpaw. All the other gnoll clans absolutely despise anything that isn't a gnoll (other than Blackburrow's frequent alliances with Freeport, though that could open up the Sabertooth as an evil gnoll lore thing).</p><p>I still honestly believe, however, that the biggest chance for an NPC race is, like ratbastard said, to have their home dungeon as their starting point. Perhaps expanded and made into more of a city. Which would be really killer, rolling an orc on Zek. :D</p><p>Let the giants, goblins, dragons and such be the "universal enemy", if we <em>must </em>have one, though I don't think having one of those is necessary at all; everything must have allies, one way or another. Crushbone's alliance with the dark elves, the grobin alliance with the Crushbone, the Rujarkian alliance with the Court of Tears...</p><p>Or, as an out-of-game source, the Forgotten Realms orcs (which are similar to eq2's orcs, just dumb as rocks, compared to Norrath's orcs actually having reasonable intelligence) ally with goblins, giants, ogres, half-orcs, sometimes evil human nations (Thay), drow, kobolds, gnolls, demons...</p>

[Iskandar]

<p>They could always use Haven for something like that -- any gnoll, centaur, hooluk, or whatever could start there, having forsaken or otherwise been outcast from their own society (and thus having the same base starting factions as the existing player races). As with Exiles, they would be KOS to all of the player cities until they chose an alignment and progressed on the faction questlines, just like a current race doing the Betrayal quests, after which they would be allowed into the city of their choice -- probably with the same snide and suspicious NPC commentary a Dark Elf or Ratonga receives in Qeynos, or a Wood Elf in Freeport.</p><p>Using Haven like that would allow pretty much <strong>any</strong> NPC race to be turned into a player race, all it would really need would be adjustments to the model framework (for emotes, riding mounts, and other animations) and race-specific Character Development attributes.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You would also need to create player altrerable models.</span></p>

[Iskandar]

<p>Yeah, the model adjustments are probably why it's not a high priority, if it's even on the list... it would take a LOT of work and a LOT of time.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p>Orcs are still the most easily available model for turning into a player race. <3</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>Orcs are the bad guys and should remain so. there's nothing about the orcs that makes them viable as anything but someone's puppet or a villian.</p><p>they only factions of orc that aren't under a DE's thumb or not sole occupied with building a better war machine and the top members killng eachother for leadership are the Rygorr/escaped Thrael'gorr. and with both of them, it's clearly the enemy of my enemy is my friend. they are buddies with you becuase you are working against Kael like them. thought your interesting in preventing norrath's destructionm, they are just interested in saving Sullon Zek.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Orcs are the bad guys and should remain so. there's nothing about the orcs that makes them viable as anything but someone's puppet or a villian.</p><p>they only factions of orc that aren't under a DE's thumb or not sole occupied with building a better war machine and the top members killng eachother for leadership are the Rygorr/escaped Thrael'gorr. and with both of them, it's clearly the enemy of my enemy is my friend. they are buddies with you becuase you are working against Kael like them. thought your interesting in preventing norrath's destructionm, they are just interested in saving Sullon Zek.</p></blockquote><p>It isn't just saving Sullon Zek. The Ry'gorr have been oppressed by the giants of Kael for well over 500 years. Back in EQ1 there were giants just outside of Ry'gorr Keep that ran a prison of sorts. Those giants had Ry'gorr orcs working for them too. Also the giants visited the keep to pass messages and to arrange for supply runs to Kael.</p><p>Now the giants are enslaving the orcs, reducing them to little more than a supplier. If they had tried to intergrate the Ry'gorr into the Army of Zek they would still have the popular support of the Ry'gorr (and be better able to deal with us adventurers). As it is, the Kromzek created the opportunity for those opposing Rallos to gain allies not only outside of their door, but also inside the very halls of Kael.</p><p>Freeing Sullon Zek is a rally cry that brings all the rage and angst the orc feel due to their treatment to the forefront. It is something for them to focus all their resentment into. This isn't about freeing Sullon as much as it is rebelling against the Kromzek rule.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p>The Ry'Gorr are probably the easiest answer to make into a player race. They don't like the Kromzek, they don't particularly have their own goals (I believe the only reason they warred was the dwarves was because of the giants, and I suppose the ones on Frostfang are doing it out of desperation)...a lasting alliance with, say, the Coldain or a city outside Velious would prove beneficial into ensuring that the giants don't rise up and throw them all in chains again.</p><p>However, by that same notion, in terms of character customization: The Ry'Gorr have precisely the same problem as, say, the Velious gnolls do; they're all a bluish white or just white. If there's any difference in skin/fur color, I haven't seen it.</p><p>Honestly, I just don't agree with the idea that orcs should always be the enemy. Have any of you read, ah, <em>The Hunter's Blades</em> trilogy in the Drizzt series, or <em>The Orc King</em>? With that in mind, you'd think the ogres, even after losing the war, would just try again, instead of letting themselves descend into Lucan's servitude. I still believe that the Deathfist, should the lore stay true to a few of the quests that some of the orcs have you do to ensure the Empire's strength remains at home, would be probably the best bet, IMO, of an orc player race. Just reincorporate the old orc model (Rujarkian model sucks), maybe make a female model (or pull another Sarnak deal). Again, they'd have to be their own faction, unless the Bloodskulls suddenly surrendered to Lucan and he pulled another Freeblood deal (there's sort of a trend here) and accepted them into the city. Again, though, that would have to include the reincorporation of the old orc models.</p><p>...Though again, I would just be willing to accept an illusion of the fellow in my avatar for my own RP purposes. (wink wink, nudge nudge devs)</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Ry'Gorr are probably the easiest answer to make into a player race. They don't like the Kromzek, they don't particularly have their own goals (I believe the only reason they warred was the dwarves was because of the giants, and I suppose the ones on Frostfang are doing it out of desperation)...a lasting alliance with, say, the Coldain or a city outside Velious would prove beneficial into ensuring that the giants don't rise up and throw them all in chains again.</p><p>However, by that same notion, in terms of character customization: The Ry'Gorr have precisely the same problem as, say, the Velious gnolls do; they're all a bluish white or just white. If there's any difference in skin/fur color, I haven't seen it.</p><p>Honestly, I just don't agree with the idea that orcs should always be the enemy. Have any of you read, ah, <em>The Hunter's Blades</em> trilogy in the Drizzt series, or <em>The Orc King</em>? With that in mind, you'd think the ogres, even after losing the war, would just try again, instead of letting themselves descend into Lucan's servitude. I still believe that the Deathfist, should the lore stay true to a few of the quests that some of the orcs have you do to ensure the Empire's strength remains at home, would be probably the best bet, IMO, of an orc player race. Just reincorporate the old orc model (Rujarkian model sucks), maybe make a female model (or pull another Sarnak deal). Again, they'd have to be their own faction, unless the Bloodskulls suddenly surrendered to Lucan and he pulled another Freeblood deal (there's sort of a trend here) and accepted them into the city. Again, though, that would have to include the reincorporation of the old orc models.</p><p>...Though again, I would just be willing to accept an illusion of the fellow in my avatar for my own RP purposes. (wink wink, nudge nudge devs)</p></blockquote><p>The Ry'gorr drove the Coldain from Crystal Caverns and the two sides have been fighting ever since. The Ry'gorr have been long term allies of the Kromzek against the Coldain. No, the Coldain wouldn't accept any such alliance. The Ry'gorr probably wouldn't either. The adventurers are outsiders, neurtal parties in the faction wars found in Velious. It is easier for each side to accept help from us than it would be for them to cross the deep divisions between them.</p><p>As for the Ogres: The Greenmist killed all of the Ogres in the 2nd Rallosian Army/Rallosian Empire except for the few that converted to worshiping Cazic in the Moors. All of the player Ogres came from the populations in Freeport and Nerriak that wern't with the Rallosian Empire. The only other surviving Ogres were on Kunark and co-opted from The Overthere into Terran's Grasp.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Ry'Gorr are probably the easiest answer to make into a player race. They don't like the Kromzek, they don't particularly have their own goals (I believe the only reason they warred was the dwarves was because of the giants, and I suppose the ones on Frostfang are doing it out of desperation)...a lasting alliance with, say, the Coldain or a city outside Velious would prove beneficial into ensuring that the giants don't rise up and throw them all in chains again.</p><p>However, by that same notion, in terms of character customization: The Ry'Gorr have precisely the same problem as, say, the Velious gnolls do; they're all a bluish white or just white. If there's any difference in skin/fur color, I haven't seen it.</p><p>Honestly, I just don't agree with the idea that orcs should always be the enemy. Have any of you read, ah, <em>The Hunter's Blades</em> trilogy in the Drizzt series, or <em>The Orc King</em>? With that in mind, you'd think the ogres, even after losing the war, would just try again, instead of letting themselves descend into Lucan's servitude. I still believe that the Deathfist, should the lore stay true to a few of the quests that some of the orcs have you do to ensure the Empire's strength remains at home, would be probably the best bet, IMO, of an orc player race. Just reincorporate the old orc model (Rujarkian model sucks), maybe make a female model (or pull another Sarnak deal). Again, they'd have to be their own faction, unless the Bloodskulls suddenly surrendered to Lucan and he pulled another Freeblood deal (there's sort of a trend here) and accepted them into the city. Again, though, that would have to include the reincorporation of the old orc models.</p><p>...Though again, I would just be willing to accept an illusion of the fellow in my avatar for my own RP purposes. (wink wink, nudge nudge devs)</p></blockquote><p>The Ry'gorr drove the Coldain from Crystal Caverns and the two sides have been fighting ever since. The Ry'gorr have been long term allies of the Kromzek against the Coldain. No, the Coldain wouldn't accept any such alliance. The Ry'gorr probably wouldn't either. The adventurers are outsiders, neurtal parties in the faction wars found in Velious. It is easier for each side to accept help from us than it would be for them to cross the deep divisions between them.</p><p>As for the Ogres: The Greenmist killed all of the Ogres in the 2nd Rallosian Army/Rallosian Empire except for the few that converted to worshiping Cazic in the Moors. All of the player Ogres came from the populations in Freeport and Nerriak that wern't with the Rallosian Empire. The only other surviving Ogres were on Kunark and co-opted from The Overthere into Terran's Grasp.</p></blockquote><p>According to the new ogre quests, the Torch of Oggok in Big Bend was a relic from the 2nd Rallosian War brought to Freeport...by <em>surviving Rallosian ogres.</em></p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the new ogre quests, the Torch of Oggok in Big Bend was a relic from the 2nd Rallosian War brought to Freeport...by <em>surviving Rallosian ogres.</em></p></blockquote><p>I really wish they would stop retconning all the cool out of the second rallosian war...</p>

[kelvmor]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the new ogre quests, the Torch of Oggok in Big Bend was a relic from the 2nd Rallosian War brought to Freeport...by <em>surviving Rallosian ogres.</em></p></blockquote><p>I really wish they would stop retconning all the cool out of the second rallosian war...</p></blockquote><p>It was never distinctly written anywhere until now that there were or were not survivors from the war, other than Teren's Grasp, the Thullosians, or the ogres already living elsewhere who didn't join the Empire.</p><p>As it happens, there isn't a lot they really retconned from the War.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ugreth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the new ogre quests, the Torch of Oggok in Big Bend was a relic from the 2nd Rallosian War brought to Freeport...by <em>surviving Rallosian ogres.</em></p></blockquote><p>I really wish they would stop retconning all the cool out of the second rallosian war...</p></blockquote><p>It was never distinctly written anywhere until now that there were or were not survivors from the war, other than Teren's Grasp, the Thullosians, or the ogres already living elsewhere who didn't join the Empire.</p><p>As it happens, there isn't a lot they really retconned from the War.</p></blockquote><p>The ONLY ogres who were not wiped off the face of Norrath were those who never joined the army in the first place, and the Thullosians, who weren't involved in the desecration of the temple, and thus were able to strike a bargain with Thule to keep on living.</p><p>EVERY. LAST. OGRE. In the Rallosian Army was killed by the Greenmist. There were no survivors beyond the Thullosians. In order for that Torch of Oggok to make it's way to Freeport by surviving Rallosians, then a Thullosian would have to be the one who delivered it, but that's impossible since they sealed themselves away in the Swamps for so long that the first time any outsider came in contact with them was when the Moors of Ykesha were rediscovered.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>Are you sure they say 2nd rallosian war, or just the rallosian war. cause there was a first one that got them thier butts handed to them by the Rathe at the end of it.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p>I think that's what he's saying, Cusa... not every last Ogre was in the Rallosian Army -- some were tending home back in Oggok or crafting to support the war efforts, some were probably off doing their own thing for their own personal glory, some were already in Freeport as citizens (like Boomba), that sort of thing. Long after the Army was annihilated by the Greemist, some of those non-Army types chose to resettle in Freeport and brought a souvenir from back home.</p><p>I dunno... really, I'd have to see the text from the racial quest to see how it's phrased, and now that I think about it... I don't have any Ogre toons... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[kelvmor]

<p>I'll probably be doing it again later on and look over the dialogue again. I'll be sure to save my logs and copy/paste what I get.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are you sure they say 2nd rallosian war, or just the rallosian war. cause there was a first one that got them thier butts handed to them by the Rathe at the end of it.</p></blockquote><p>But the first Rallosian War took place before Humans, let alone Freeport, even existed, so it'd be even more of a retcon to say that it existed in Freeport since before EQlive's timeframe.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>well what I mean Cusa is that Ogres like the original Boomba and such that helped found/migrated to freeport after it's founding might have brought it with them. remember in eq1 99% of ogres were 'Rallosians' if not all of them. So like say when Boomba first moves to Freeport with soem others they brought the torch as a reminder of where they came from.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>The term "Rallosian" was lost when the Ogres succumbed to the curse of the Rathe, and it wasn't brought back until the 2nd war started. All those ogres inbetween just called themselves ogres. Sure, the torch could have been brought over from Oggok at some point after the first war many millenia ago and the 2nd war 400-500 years ago, but chances are that the ogres wouldn't be calling themselves Rallosians at that point.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The term "Rallosian" was lost when the Ogres succumbed to the curse of the Rathe, and it wasn't brought back until the 2nd war started. All those ogres inbetween just called themselves ogres. Sure, the torch could have been brought over from Oggok at some point after the first war many millenia ago and the 2nd war 400-500 years ago, but chances are that the ogres wouldn't be calling themselves Rallosians at that point.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, it specifically said 'Rallosians' in the quest. It was an everlasting flame they stole from Gukta, then brought back to Oggok (then Rallos) and set on some other sort of object.</p>