List all fighters by DPS/Surviability! [Archive]

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Talathion

11-22-2011, 01:12 PM

In Your Opinion, List all Classes of Fighters sorted by DPS/Survivability. (PUT YOUR LIST BELOW!)DPS:Shadowknights - 1stMonk - 2ndBruiser - 3rdBerserker - 4thGuardian - 5thPaladin - 6thSurvivability:Bruiser - 1stMonk - 2ndGuardian - 3rdPaladin - 4thShadowknight - 5thBerserker - 6thWhats your list? POST BELOW!

Elskidor

11-22-2011, 01:19 PM

Don't care. Tanks are boring classes, but I'd think Pally for the win in survival. They cans solo some pretty rough content.

Dannnybones

11-22-2011, 01:21 PM

Survivability : I'm not really sure that a bruiser would be my first pick, but seems close...zerk possibly last instead of sk though.Edit: Guardian > Paladin easily.Dps : Mostly agree with your list!

Talathion

11-22-2011, 01:44 PM

yeah I actually do sorta agree, without heal crits paladins are lower now, and Shadowknights and berserkers are basicly the same, but shadowknights have a better defensive stance and alot more health (about 6000 more.)I'll switch noah.

agentsix

11-22-2011, 01:50 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>In Your Opinion, List all Classes of Fighters sorted by DPS/Survivability. (PUT YOUR LIST BELOW!)Survivability:Shadowknight - 5th</blockquote>Based on what AA spec?My SK never dies. Of course, I have every life tap Mastered and buffed up with AA.

Hennyo

11-22-2011, 02:04 PM

I hate to say it, but I mostly agree with Talathion's current list.

Tekadeo

11-22-2011, 02:45 PM

Pally DPS > Guardian DPS

Elskidor

11-22-2011, 02:49 PM

Had a set of for fun duels with equally geard tanks a couple months ago, between a Pally, Monk and SK. Pally survived SK easiest and beat the Monk aswell, but the Monk took abit longer.

Hellcatt

11-22-2011, 03:26 PM

Ran ISK with a monk last night and he had a Devastation Fist hit of 21 MILLION on one of the thrael gorr slaves o.OSo I am not to sure about the dps list....

Yimway

11-22-2011, 07:41 PM

I assume the OP was talking about raid content.Depending on the content, that list is very different.Raid vs heroic vs solo vs pvp and the results are quite different.

Talathion

11-22-2011, 09:45 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I assume the OP was talking about raid content.Depending on the content, that list is very different.Raid vs heroic vs solo vs pvp and the results are quite different.</blockquote>I mostly 1 shot everything solo, and with stonewill on any tank class it pretty much makes them invincible solo.I am talking ONLY about Heroic/Raid content.

Silzin

11-22-2011, 09:57 PM

For DPS i would say that Guard s definitely on the bottom, and for the rest ... i my guilds MT is a Pally and he can out dps me ... i think a lot depends on gear difference, player skill and encounter setup more then just the difference is the classes. As for raid Tank Survivability... i would build the list differently then you for several obviate reasons, but hay that is me...

Talathion

11-22-2011, 10:24 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For DPS i would say that Guard s definitely on the bottom, and for the rest ... i my guilds MT is a Pally and he can out dps me ... i think a lot depends on gear difference, player skill and encounter setup more then just the difference is the classes. As for raid Tank Survivability... i would build the list differently then you for several obviate reasons, but hay that is me...</blockquote>MT has MT Buffs... Thats the thing, if your guardian was MT he would out DPS the Paladin.How would you build the list?

Bruener

11-23-2011, 11:04 AM

The list is probably pretty accurate with the idea that in raiding versus heroic you would probably swap a couple spots. It is also a toss up for the DPS chart on who DPS's the most. There are a lot of situations where a Brawler can easily out DPS a SK, even in Defensive.Not sure why we even talk about Fighter DPS though since especially in raids it is minimal and nobody even cares. T1 DPS destroys everybody by a huge amount and so everybody else is laughable in comparison and unimportant. Hence one of the biggest problems with DoV and how it is killing this game.

Damager

11-23-2011, 01:00 PM

Survivability really depends on content.HM content with strikethrough mobs would be brawlers but everything else in X4 would be Guard #1. Heroic content / solo I think SK/pally would top a brawler in survivability.PvE duels Pally then monk then SK. (Never been beat by an SK in duels, Unless I let them)PvE BGs Pally then SK then Monk, #1 Ranja LOL!DPS as stated is irrelavent since its so low compared to T1, But on Raid I would put Guard at the lowest by a good margin and the rest of the fighters are within 20% of each other.Highest raw threat/Hate generation SK then Pally then guard then Monk. (This is from having them all as my OTs and MTs in raid equally geared) and is more important than dps. SK with their dps and hate generation makes them the biggest pain in the butt to keep aggro off of when I MT, they lack when it comes to mem wipe mobs where the monk shines in quick snap aggro. The "Content" of mem wipe mobs and strikethrough mobs put brawlers up top for the moment in high end raiding IMHO. If both these mechanics were removed the brawler would slip to last in MT favorability.<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The list is probably pretty accurate with the idea that in raiding versus heroic you would probably swap a couple spots. It is also a toss up for the DPS chart on who DPS's the most. There are a lot of situations where a Brawler can easily out DPS a SK, even in Defensive.</blockquote>Brawler fully raid geared in offensive will have roughly 8% uncontested avoid, no strikethrough imuunity and very low mitigation you would rarely if ever have one offensive in raid unless its a farm mob/trash.

Bruener

11-23-2011, 03:16 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The list is probably pretty accurate with the idea that in raiding versus heroic you would probably swap a couple spots. It is also a toss up for the DPS chart on who DPS's the most. There are a lot of situations where a Brawler can easily out DPS a SK, even in Defensive.</blockquote>Brawler fully raid geared in offensive will have roughly 8% uncontested avoid, no strikethrough imuunity and very low mitigation you would rarely if ever have one offensive in raid unless its a farm mob/trash.</blockquote>You make it sound like that is much different than a Plate tank that goes fully offensive with DW or a 2h. Really though some high end Bruiser OTs will tell you they actually parse higher in defensive anyway due to a certain riposte mechanic or something.But DPS doesn't matter a whit in this game thanks to SOE nerfing the snot out of Fighters in relation to everybody else and buffing T1 through the roof in their DPS output. Nobody cares how much a fighter can DPS. SOE has locked them into such a niche with lacking in that department in relation to T1 that all people care about is how well they can survive....groups have to be built to give them tons of hate buffs and transfers no matter what further locking Fighters into a niche that is reliant on others to basically generate their agro for a huge chunk of it.The current mechanics are terrible and hopefully are going to change soon after the Beastlord fiasco to get the game actually enjoyable in raiding again.

Talathion

11-23-2011, 03:52 PM

I just wish fighter classes with most survivability werent also topping DPS and fighters with least survivability werent in the middle or buttom.

Talathion

11-23-2011, 03:54 PM

Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.) [Just adding Critical Healing would help)Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)Of course Zerker is below BOTH brawlers and SK, hehe due to flurry/strikethrough/spell damage/AAs that proc lots of damage on autoattack and the fact zerker hittrates have always been terrible (missing 50% of most of my attacks...)

Yimway

11-23-2011, 04:19 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.) [Just adding Critical Healing would help)Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)</blockquote>I wouldn't agree with any of that.

Talathion

11-23-2011, 04:42 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.) [Just adding Critical Healing would help)Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)</blockquote>I wouldn't agree with any of that.</blockquote>Whynot?

Elskidor

11-23-2011, 05:14 PM

It was dumb to make it to where a fighter had to produce any amount of remotely high DPS in order to keep hate. That's stupid logic. Change that if anything. Comparing fighter to T1 DPS in any form is also dumb. Roll a sorcerer or Pred if your jealous. Tanks should be used to tank, survive and help everyone else survive...stick and keep them right above healers and below the rest and fix the hate mechanics in the game.<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Nobody cares how much a fighter can DPS. As it should be. Duh. SOE has locked them into such a niche with lacking in that department in relation to T1 that all people care about is how well they can survive. lol. Duh again. </blockquote>

Bruener

11-23-2011, 06:04 PM

<cite>Elskidor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It was dumb to make it to where a fighter had to produce any amount of remotely high DPS in order to keep hate. That's stupid logic. Change that if anything. Comparing fighter to T1 DPS in any form is also dumb. Roll a sorcerer or Pred if your jealous. Tanks should be used to tank, survive and help everyone else survive...stick and keep them right above healers and below the rest and fix the hate mechanics in the game.<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Nobody cares how much a fighter can DPS. As it should be. Duh. SOE has locked them into such a niche with lacking in that department in relation to T1 that all people care about is how well they can survive. lol. Duh again. </blockquote></blockquote>You know what, you can keep saying this along with the other people with the blinders on. But the fact is the game is dying and Fighters are even more annoyed with the current direction compared to any other classes. In SF they weren't. If you make the game un-fun...people quit.Now throw in the fact that SOE is introducing a class that works outside of multiple types of play styles and excels in however they choose to play. Do you know why they are making the class that way? They are trying to bring people back to the game, and they know how they want people to play.With current mechanics and the huge huge disparity in DPS all it does is make EQ2 a completely DPS-centric game. Everything is built around maximizing DPS. You bring the minimum to stay alive and you bring the max to DPS. Min-max. Throw in the fact that Fighters have to rely on other classes to do almost anything that is their job. Survive - healers, check. Agro - hate buffers/transfers, check. DPS - buffs from everybody else, check (yes, check out a tanks parse...after auto attack it is a long ways down before you see the DPS actually generated from the Fighter). Even the areas that are supposed to be our "niche" we are more reliant on other classes than anybody else in any other role. This is unenjoyable.Hey, if they can make it so a class can turn on DPS mode and top the DPS parse and than switch the button and be able to provide top utility....not sure why they can't make more classes enjoyable to play with that type of versatility. More versatile always equals more enjoyable.Holding agro doesn't kill mobs - damage does.

Damager

11-23-2011, 07:19 PM

Damager

11-23-2011, 07:21 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Holding agro doesn't kill mobs - damage does.</blockquote>Uhmmm holding aggro keeps the whole raid alive.report back your uncontested avoid on plate tank in offense. Thanks. (Think youll find it about 30-35% higher than monk just sayin)

Bruener

11-23-2011, 08:47 PM

<cite>Damager wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Holding agro doesn't kill mobs - damage does.</blockquote>Uhmmm holding aggro keeps the whole raid alive.report back your uncontested avoid on plate tank in offense. Thanks. (Think youll find it about 30-35% higher than monk just sayin)</blockquote>Its getting pretty annoying watching people post that don't have a clue on why this game is dying and contributing absolutely nothing to actual improve the health of the game.A huge amount of agro is generated by DPS/utility classes. You can throw a healer into a group as a tank and buff them the way the do on raids and they could hold agro. Furthermore look at all the mechanics to wipe agro in this game. SOE knows that the sustained agro isn't important and have instead created mechanics that force tanks to rely on snaps to get mobs back...something that is extremely annoying especially for the few tanks that have a low number of snaps.The few of you still hanging on with this ideal that Fighters should be low parsing meat shields really need to wake up and realize that people do not enjoy that. In a DPS centric game it severly limits the usefullness of the classes. In a DPS centric game it means you contribute very very little.Why is it you guys can't see that closing the DPS gaps will allow classes to focus more on their primary role and most likely enjoy the class more without being a drag on encounters. In SF you had Fighters parsing well and you didn't have T1 off the chart....what did it do....had people play Fighters more, actively....and found a couple more Fighter slots in raids.Oh, and my uncontested block Offensive is 0.

Talathion

11-24-2011, 02:42 AM

My Fighter class KILLS myself/kills my power and Lowers my mitigation/avoidance to lower then scouts, but Berserker is still only 4th on DPS...

Netty

11-24-2011, 08:49 AM

This list is more in line as it is imo.DPS1.Shadowknight2.Monk3.Bruicer4.Berserk5.Paladin6.GuardianSurvivability.1.monk2.Bruicer3.Guardian4.Paladin5.Shadowknight6.BerserkPally and shadowknight both have ups and downs when it comes to surviving. SK:s have the most health and better death save but the pally still wins of the two imo. Claim that it is the other way around since SK have a stone skin is abit meh to be honest since both SK and zerk have that. But they ONLY work on Physical damage wich makes it useless for most stuff since not to many aoe:s/DT are physical.I dont agree one bit with tallons fantacy on how it should be. The fact still stand that you need to look at UT aswell of the tanks and count that into the balance curve.

Talathion

11-24-2011, 11:43 AM

Max Health is one of Tanks Most important Stat, and Zerker still has no health buffs. :/I'd gladly sac our crappy non-crit 1000 point heal for 1000-2000 more HP.But we are also number 4 On the DPS list with lowest survivability....

Bruener

11-24-2011, 12:21 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Max Health is one of Tanks Most important Stat, and Zerker still has no health buffs. :/I'd gladly sac our crappy non-crit 1000 point heal for 1000-2000 more HP.But we are also number 4 On the DPS list with lowest survivability....</blockquote>As Netty said, you also have to consider UT into the equation, and I would push it one step further you have to consider agro generation as well.The problem with DoV is they made Fighter DPS unimportant with the current DPS spread and they have also made agro hugely reliant on other classes (mostly because of the DPS spread). They basically knocked those 2 reasons out of the equation when it comes to Fighter consideration.Than the fact that in the area of UT the Fighters are pretty balanced across the board. Some bring defensive buffs that are huge, some bring offensive buffs. But the fact that UT is balanced it isn't even a consideration when you are looking at a Fighter for raids.That leaves the very simple reason on why Brawlers and Guards own this xpac. Survivability. Their advantage on owning one shot AEs over the other classes puts them far above the other classes.Its really easy to see what happened in DoV. SOE made the areas that the other Fighters might have had advantages in unimportant and made a whole xpac that catered towards the benefits that 3 of the Fighters had.The fix.....fix the DPS spread which in turn fixes part of the agro generation problem and control the amount of one shot capabilities that ALL mobs seem to have.EDIT: Oh, and balance strike through so that the mechanic can actually be implemented properly.

yzyh

11-24-2011, 12:36 PM

Paladin out DPS brawlers on AoE content and your zerker should be at the top with the SK and I'm glad you guys aren't the ones balancing class. You don't tanks on giving more survavibiliti to the lower DPS ones, No one care about the top dps tank of he is the worst tank.As for Zerker they should be T1 DPS with a 2hander using leather and not a tanking class. Since when a berserker isn't a big mofo in a stance of rage trying to murder everything on his way regardless of beeing attacked ?

Talathion

11-24-2011, 04:34 PM

<cite>yzyh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladin out DPS brawlers on AoE content and your zerker should be at the top with the SK and I'm glad you guys aren't the ones balancing class. You don't tanks on giving more survavibiliti to the lower DPS ones, No one care about the top dps tank of he is the worst tank.As for Zerker they should be T1 DPS with a 2hander using leather and not a tanking class. Since when a berserker isn't a big mofo in a stance of rage trying to murder everything on his way regardless of beeing attacked ?</blockquote>No, brawlers **** on AOE parses because of Crane Twirl/AE Auto+Mantis Strike, just need an AE auto Adorn Or illy.Unfortuntely, alot of brawlers have no idea how to play there overpowered class.

Humayon

11-25-2011, 03:51 PM

DPS1.Brawler2.Brawler3.Brawler4.Brawler5.Brawler6.BrawlerSurvivability.1.Brawler2.Brawler3.Brawler4.Brawler5.Brawler6.BrawlerHeals1.Brawler2.Brawler3.Brawler4.Brawler5.Brawler6.BrawlerUtility1.Brawler2.Brawler3.Brawler4.Brawler5.Brawler6.BrawlerSOE: all brawlers.

Talathion

11-25-2011, 05:55 PM

LOLI like that they even have better healing then Paladins.

LygerT

11-29-2011, 01:35 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yzyh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladin out DPS brawlers on AoE content and your zerker should be at the top with the SK and I'm glad you guys aren't the ones balancing class. You don't tanks on giving more survavibiliti to the lower DPS ones, No one care about the top dps tank of he is the worst tank.As for Zerker they should be T1 DPS with a 2hander using leather and not a tanking class. Since when a berserker isn't a big mofo in a stance of rage trying to murder everything on his way regardless of beeing attacked ?</blockquote>No, brawlers **** on AOE parses because of Crane Twirl/AE Auto+Mantis Strike, just need an AE auto Adorn Or illy.Unfortuntely, alot of brawlers have no idea how to play there overpowered class.</blockquote>brawlers have large gaps between AE abilities, it comes in short durations but hits pretty hard.

The_Cheeseman

12-03-2011, 04:41 AM

Brawlers are awesome this expansion, only took them 6 years... That being said, playing a brawler to its potential requires more knowledge and familiarity with the class than most others, so I still don't see many decent brawlers around. Oh well, just makes me look better, I suppose.

Bruener

12-03-2011, 02:12 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers are awesome this expansion, only took them 6 years... That being said, playing a brawler to its potential requires more knowledge and familiarity with the class than most others, so I still don't see many decent brawlers around. Oh well, just makes me look better, I suppose.</blockquote>Playing a Brawler right now requires less skill than any other tank. Hey, incoming AE...push button. Stand in front of mob and avoid 90% of the hits...Decent tanks in general are rare, but it is all the things outside of the class abilities that make a good tank. Situational awareness, etc. Even that doesn't matter though when you play a Fighter class that currently has all the tools to put them head and shoulders above everybody else.

The_Cheeseman

12-04-2011, 03:52 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing a Brawler right now requires less skill than any other tank. Hey, incoming AE...push button. Stand in front of mob and avoid 90% of the hits...Decent tanks in general are rare, but it is all the things outside of the class abilities that make a good tank. Situational awareness, etc. Even that doesn't matter though when you play a Fighter class that currently has all the tools to put them head and shoulders above everybody else.</blockquote>Yes, you're absolutely right, Bruner. Brawlers are obviously and irrefutably overpowered at all tiers of play, and harnessing this power is so simple a caveman could do it (apologies in advance to any GEICO employees reading this). This is why the brawler population has exploded since DoV, and why all those FotM shadowknights who started their characters in TSO have now abandoned that class.Oh, wait, that hasn't happened at all. Hmm...

Talathion

12-04-2011, 05:58 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing a Brawler right now requires less skill than any other tank. Hey, incoming AE...push button. Stand in front of mob and avoid 90% of the hits...Decent tanks in general are rare, but it is all the things outside of the class abilities that make a good tank. Situational awareness, etc. Even that doesn't matter though when you play a Fighter class that currently has all the tools to put them head and shoulders above everybody else.</blockquote>Yes, you're absolutely right, Bruner. Brawlers are obviously and irrefutably overpowered at all tiers of play, and harnessing this power is so simple a caveman could do it (apologies in advance to any GEICO employees reading this). This is why the brawler population has exploded since DoV, and why all those FotM shadowknights who started their characters in TSO have now abandoned that class.Oh, wait, that hasn't happened at all. Hmm...</blockquote>because most of them quit.

Bruener

12-04-2011, 12:07 PM

Gungo

12-05-2011, 06:51 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing a Brawler right now requires less skill than any other tank. Hey, incoming AE...push button. Stand in front of mob and avoid 90% of the hits...Decent tanks in general are rare, but it is all the things outside of the class abilities that make a good tank. Situational awareness, etc. Even that doesn't matter though when you play a Fighter class that currently has all the tools to put them head and shoulders above everybody else.</blockquote>Yes, you're absolutely right, Bruner. Brawlers are obviously and irrefutably overpowered at all tiers of play, and harnessing this power is so simple a caveman could do it (apologies in advance to any GEICO employees reading this). This is why the brawler population has exploded since DoV, and why all those FotM shadowknights who started their characters in TSO have now abandoned that class.Oh, wait, that hasn't happened at all. Hmm...</blockquote>Well actually it has. Most of the SKs that were here a year ago are gone. Most of the high end raiding SKs that were here a year ago are gone. Actually it goes for both Crusaders.Now, if your guilds Brawlers don't show up good luck making progression.Right now a mediocre tank of a Brawler is greater than a phenomenal Tank of any other Fighter simply because they are that much easier to keep alive and have that many more tools to handle the spike 1 shots.</blockquote>Your wrong guardians, (if played well) can do amazingly well if played right. Better then most brawlers, currently. Since they have more stoneskins then any other tank on a much faster recast.Co-op strike is basically a joke now its barely a normal auto atk hit. If your dieing to coop strike you suck and stop casting AOE SNAPS. Yes we all know you have the problem bruener.So whats your complaint now strikethrough? Which has been severely nerfed on all raid mobs as well and is down to 20% at most on most raid npc.All the major complaints of raid mechanics benefiting brawlers have been severely neutered. Co-op doesnt even take effect until 6 secs after spawn and does no more then a regular auto atk hit.Strikethrough has been removed from all buff packages and the static amount was reduced to SF levels. You know the expansion you said was perfect. p.s most of the raiding brawlers no longer play either. So whats your point? There is still high end guilds using a sk maintank.

Bruener

12-05-2011, 07:15 PM

I am not going to sit here and completely spell it out for you again. This game is dying and Fighters especially have been dropping off this game left and right specifically because of how terrible the current mechanics and balancing are.Strike through is still a problem and still causes a ton of damage. Coop is still a problem and causes a lot of damage. Avoidance is still a ridiculous gap. And the biggest problem that Crusaders and Zerkers are having serious problems with are all the 1 shot mechanics that Brawlers thrive in.So yeah, as my agenda was early in DoV beta when the writing was clear on the wall. Strike-through problem - recognized. Coop problem - recognized. DPS - still needs to be fixed, but looks to be recognized going forward.If a Crusader/Zerk has to use a Warden/Temp to be able to do the same thing a Brawler can do with just an Inq there better be some serious gains in other areas.

BChizzle

12-05-2011, 08:14 PM

LOL he's still trying to get more dps isnt he.

Netty

12-05-2011, 09:34 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing a Brawler right now requires less skill than any other tank. Hey, incoming AE...push button. Stand in front of mob and avoid 90% of the hits...Decent tanks in general are rare, but it is all the things outside of the class abilities that make a good tank. Situational awareness, etc. Even that doesn't matter though when you play a Fighter class that currently has all the tools to put them head and shoulders above everybody else.</blockquote>Yes, you're absolutely right, Bruner. Brawlers are obviously and irrefutably overpowered at all tiers of play, and harnessing this power is so simple a caveman could do it (apologies in advance to any GEICO employees reading this). This is why the brawler population has exploded since DoV, and why all those FotM shadowknights who started their characters in TSO have now abandoned that class.Oh, wait, that hasn't happened at all. Hmm...</blockquote>Well actually it has. Most of the SKs that were here a year ago are gone. Most of the high end raiding SKs that were here a year ago are gone. Actually it goes for both Crusaders.Now, if your guilds Brawlers don't show up good luck making progression.Right now a mediocre tank of a Brawler is greater than a phenomenal Tank of any other Fighter simply because they are that much easier to keep alive and have that many more tools to handle the spike 1 shots.</blockquote>Your wrong guardians, (if played well) can do amazingly well if played right. Better then most brawlers, currently. Since they have more stoneskins then any other tank on a much faster recast.Co-op strike is basically a joke now its barely a normal auto atk hit. If your dieing to coop strike you suck and stop casting AOE SNAPS. Yes we all know you have the problem bruener.So whats your complaint now strikethrough? Which has been severely nerfed on all raid mobs as well and is down to 20% at most on most raid npc.All the major complaints of raid mechanics benefiting brawlers have been severely neutered. Co-op doesnt even take effect until 6 secs after spawn and does no more then a regular auto atk hit.Strikethrough has been removed from all buff packages and the static amount was reduced to SF levels. You know the expansion you said was perfect. p.s most of the raiding brawlers no longer play either. So whats your point? There is still high end guilds using a sk maintank.</blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?

Talathion

12-05-2011, 10:25 PM

3 triggers of it on a 2 minute recast.and guardian one you must spend 10 aa on to make it not kill you/lower recast from 20 mins to 10.

Novusod

12-06-2011, 06:53 AM

All this talk is nothing but irrevant blabbering because the game is going casual now.How 99% of the casuals view the tank classes: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=2884" target="_blank">Link</a><cite>Svoy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me open with stating the obvious: fighter is an archetype that is able to protect group/raid members by forcing the mob to target the tank while surviving mob's attacks. Therefore tank has 2 primary functions: aggro control and defense.GlossaryDPS - damage per secondTPS - threat per secondHPS - heal per secondAE - area effectIn EQ2 the fighter archetype is futher divided into 3 classes and each of these 3 classes has 2 subclasses.Warrior class (Guardian and Berserker subclasses)Pros: High defense (without any AAs spent)This is your common tank. High defense, ability to wield all weapons (including 2-handed and can double-wield as well).Cons: no utility or healing that's avilable Crusaders and BrawlersGuardian. This is supposed to be the #1 defensive tank, and some time ago it was the case indeed. Nowdays Guard's defense is the same as other tanks'. Guards have also been lacking (intentionally) in the DPS department and that's still the case. It is the lowest DPS tank. SoE intended to fix the class recently but most players feel that guardians still underperform compared to other tanks.Berserker. Feels and looks like a guardian but does more damage, especially good AE DPS. Long ago guardians had an edge in defense but that's no longer the case. Most feel that both tanks have equal defense but Berserker has better aggro management and better DPS. Solid tank. First/second choice for raid MT.Crusader class (Paladin and Shadowknight subclasses)Pros: nice utility and healsCons: slightly less defense at the start but equal endgame defense. Can't dual-wield. Some players don't like the annimations compared to the Warriror (too many casting spells). First/second choice for raid MT.Paladin. This is a tank that posses most heals out of all tanks and can Rez dead players. Not a lot of damage against single target bust very nice AE damage (almost same as Berserkers). Can also hold aggro well in both single and AE scenarios. Solid tank.Shadowknight. Most popular tank nowdays. Can do it all. Nice defense, heals through life taps, can hold aggro, best AE DPS and next to best single target DPS of all tanks. Also can FD (feign death) and group evac. Very solid tank, and can also serve as MT in raids although Berserker and Paladin are more popular choices for that.Brawler class (Monk and Bruiser subclasses)Pros: some utility and heals. Good single target DPS. Fun to play due to animations.Cons: least popular raid MT and group MT due to low physical mitigation (leather armor). Can't wear shield (although that's negated by additional stat).Monk. Probably worst tank after guardian. However, Monks do better damage. They can also invis (drains power though), feign death and group feign death. They also have a big heal on 3 mins recast timer. Not a raid MT.Bruiser. Slightly better than Monk in the AE TPS and AE DPS department. Has all the utility of a Monk minus Invis. Most people agree that Bruisers have slightly better AA options. Not a raid MT.Conclusion. The best tanks are SK, Pally and Zerker. Brawlers can be fun but you need to understand that they have major shortcomings. Guardians are fine till level 50 but underperform later, especially after level 80.</blockquote>Crash course on how Free 2 Play tank balance works:- For players with silver/bronze subscription SK/Pally/Zerker is the best tank- Brawlers are bad when we're talking about a person that's bronze with treasured and adepts and no AA- Brawlers = high end raid tank- SK/Pally/Zerker = N o o b tank- Brawlers and SK/Pally = Station Cash paid class- As $ ballance SK/Pally brings in more money than brawlers- Zerker = FREE tank so this class bring in $0- Thus we have ballance even if the raiders whine about itTypical Casual Player Feedback <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?start=8&topic_id=9753" target="_blank">Link</a><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite> 10/24/11<blockquote>First of all, crusaders are currently overpowered. I was leveling a shadowknight last year and soloing reds at some sweet spot levels in treasured gear. I could see a crusader soloing a ^^^ mob a couple levels higher in some circumstances. Especially if he managed to be wearing better then treasured which is very likely as he most likely twinked himself with at LEAST mastercrafted. On live that wouldn't be hard at all. Once my SK got into the 80s that pretty much stopped for my SK. Of course my SK is STILL wearing treasured.</blockquote><cite>Barret wrote:</cite> 12/24/10 <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=4433" target="_blank">Link</a><blockquote>ya thats a crock quit promoting ur class.The laydown is as a bruiser it's going to be a complete pain in the *** as a tank. For as much dmg and hate you can generate any dps class worth while can outdo casually without trying. God expecially an aoe class. Might as well forget that.Raiding if you do get in and that's a huge if, is an epic, MOMENTOUS, pain in the ***. But as for being a raid MT, I'd not even waste my breath holding it. Unless the Guard/zerk/pally really [Removed for Content] in the guild, ud never hit the spot. Maybe you might be an MA, but usually that always goes to the next best tank, basically a zerk, or pally.But hey you don't have to go by me, listen to the dude with the shining in his eyes every time you mention his class. All I go off of is how useless they were testing out the new content in the expansions over the years.</blockquote>If you don't think the devs are getting bombarded with thousands of casuals calling SKs and plate tanks in general over powered and this has not affected class direction for the last year then you not paying attention. SK will forever be the casual preferred tank with launch of AoD the fates have sealed it. HahahahaYou guys are in my world now. Free 2 Play world.

Bruener

12-06-2011, 10:31 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't think the devs are getting bombarded with thousands of casuals calling SKs and plate tanks in general over powered and this has not affected class direction for the last year then you not paying attention. SK will forever be the casual preferred tank with launch of AoD the fates have sealed it. HahahahaYou guys are in my world now. Free 2 Play world.</blockquote>Which is why most of us are waiting in anticipation of TOR in a couple weeks. Your world is garbage and killed the game. Gratz.

Gungo

12-06-2011, 09:39 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?</blockquote>Darkonx in strike.The only thing killing tanks now is huge aoe damage, co-op strike is no worse then an auto atk hit. When you deal with any fight with 2 aoe's a GOOD gaurd can block every AOE. Learn to time aoe's, use act and/or GC.

Bruener

12-06-2011, 10:36 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?</blockquote>Darkonx in strike.The only thing killing tanks now is huge aoe damage, co-op strike is no worse then an auto atk hit. When you deal with any fight with 2 aoe's a GOOD gaurd can block every AOE. Learn to time aoe's, use act and/or GC.</blockquote>Dark hasn't switched to his Monk full time yet? And hadn't heard from him much so wasn't sure of their current raiding...But do me a favor, go ahead and ask Dark about his feelings on the disparity between Brawlers and Crusaders right now.

Netty

12-07-2011, 01:27 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?</blockquote>Darkonx in strike.The only thing killing tanks now is huge aoe damage, co-op strike is no worse then an auto atk hit. When you deal with any fight with 2 aoe's a GOOD gaurd can block every AOE. Learn to time aoe's, use act and/or GC.</blockquote>And your point is? I have never said a guard cant block AoE:s and so on my point was that brawlers have just about the right tools to block them aswell. And have a over all lower inc damage on the lower damage. So how are a well played guardian more defensiv again? It was you that said it. Again im not saying guards cant tank stuff they can and they do it well brawlers just do it better.

Talathion

12-07-2011, 02:30 PM

Guardians are ok, but brawlers are just 3 steps ahead of them.Warriors have been red headed step children ever since they nerfed the buckler line.

Bruener

12-07-2011, 03:10 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are ok, but brawlers are just 3 steps ahead of them.Warriors have been red headed step children ever since they nerfed the buckler line.</blockquote>No. Guards are great tanks right now, but probably close to where they should be. Brawlers are both more defensive and a lot more offensive than Guards though. A well played Guard in todays game though is a very valuable toon to have in raids.Its real simple to see what has happened, its just ridiculous that it has gone on for as long as it has while being blatantly obvious. Brawlers were given certain tools to perform a certain role very well. They were given great temps to survive shorter durations on fast reuses along with great snap capability. Operating as an OT with unparalleled burst survivability. They complained. Than the gap in physical damage overall was closed a ton by more given to them along with some even beefier short term survivability cool downs while maintaining a huge gap in avoidance with strike through immunity.SOE knows the problem. They are just very stretched atm especially with a push to get Beastlords out and the new xpac. Unfortunately for me the fighter fix will probably come too late because I will be off wielding a light saber.

Gungo

12-07-2011, 07:23 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?</blockquote>Darkonx in strike.The only thing killing tanks now is huge aoe damage, co-op strike is no worse then an auto atk hit. When you deal with any fight with 2 aoe's a GOOD gaurd can block every AOE. Learn to time aoe's, use act and/or GC.</blockquote>Dark hasn't switched to his Monk full time yet? And hadn't heard from him much so wasn't sure of their current raiding...But do me a favor, go ahead and ask Dark about his feelings on the disparity between Brawlers and Crusaders right now.</blockquote>He never has he plays his monk for like 1-2 fights. Apparently you dont know any of this since he thinks his shadowknight is better on most other fights. More talking out your rear again.

Gungo

12-07-2011, 07:31 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?</blockquote>Darkonx in strike.The only thing killing tanks now is huge aoe damage, co-op strike is no worse then an auto atk hit. When you deal with any fight with 2 aoe's a GOOD gaurd can block every AOE. Learn to time aoe's, use act and/or GC.</blockquote>And your point is? I have never said a guard cant block AoE:s and so on my point was that brawlers have just about the right tools to block them aswell. And have a over all lower inc damage on the lower damage. So how are a well played guardian more defensiv again? It was you that said it. Again im not saying guards cant tank stuff they can and they do it well brawlers just do it better.</blockquote>Learn to read instead of making up stuff like bruener. I said nothing about guards being more defensive. I said a well played guard is just as good as most brawlers. So it was YOU who made up that BS. And yoru final statement is WRONG. Due to the number of stoneskins on some fights gaurds do it better, right now. On many fights brawlers rely on thier death save to eat numerous one shot Aoe's. If they go beyond that count they need the healer in group to cast thier death save until temps are back up. Monks are better then bruisers because they have a single trigger stoneskin on a 45 sec recast. A guard in general has a stoneskin ability up on nearly every aoe. The death save is mostly just insurance if something goes wrong. Personally i think the duration should be permanant. With the reduction of strikethrough and the fact any brawler can give the guard more avoid. The avoid difference is negliable. Alot of this stuff was fixed when the mechanics changes were made. Strikethrough was reduced to SF levels and coop was neutered into a barely noticable proc.

Gungo

12-07-2011, 07:35 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are ok, but brawlers are just 3 steps ahead of them.Warriors have been red headed step children ever since they nerfed the buckler line.</blockquote>No. Guards are great tanks right now, but probably close to where they should be. Brawlers are both more defensive and a lot more offensive than Guards though. A well played Guard in todays game though is a very valuable toon to have in raids.Its real simple to see what has happened, its just ridiculous that it has gone on for as long as it has while being blatantly obvious. Brawlers were given certain tools to perform a certain role very well. They were given great temps to survive shorter durations on fast reuses along with great snap capability. Operating as an OT with unparalleled burst survivability. They complained. Than the gap in physical damage overall was closed a ton by more given to them along with some even beefier short term survivability cool downs while maintaining a huge gap in avoidance with strike through immunity.SOE knows the problem. They are just very stretched atm especially with a push to get Beastlords out and the new xpac. Unfortunately for me the fighter fix will probably come too late because I will be off wielding a light saber.</blockquote>You have no idea what your talking about. In SF your supposed perfect expansion brawlers had HIGHER mit then they do now. Mit % was broken and everyone was capped at high end. I am sure you will complain in TOR until whatever class you play is overpowered enough to give you the crutch you need.

Bruener

12-07-2011, 08:32 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians are ok, but brawlers are just 3 steps ahead of them.Warriors have been red headed step children ever since they nerfed the buckler line.</blockquote>No. Guards are great tanks right now, but probably close to where they should be. Brawlers are both more defensive and a lot more offensive than Guards though. A well played Guard in todays game though is a very valuable toon to have in raids.Its real simple to see what has happened, its just ridiculous that it has gone on for as long as it has while being blatantly obvious. Brawlers were given certain tools to perform a certain role very well. They were given great temps to survive shorter durations on fast reuses along with great snap capability. Operating as an OT with unparalleled burst survivability. They complained. Than the gap in physical damage overall was closed a ton by more given to them along with some even beefier short term survivability cool downs while maintaining a huge gap in avoidance with strike through immunity.SOE knows the problem. They are just very stretched atm especially with a push to get Beastlords out and the new xpac. Unfortunately for me the fighter fix will probably come too late because I will be off wielding a light saber.</blockquote>You have no idea what your talking about. In SF your supposed perfect expansion brawlers had HIGHER mit then they do now. Mit % was broken and everyone was capped at high end. I am sure you will complain in TOR until whatever class you play is overpowered enough to give you the crutch you need.</blockquote>I am pretty sure most of us here are sick of your garbage tool bag. The facts are there...you can't get any more black and white.Expect nerfs.Expect buffs to others.It doesn't get anymore simple than that.

Netty

12-07-2011, 08:34 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really ? time after time i see you put up stuff you dont under at all. Sure guards can tank fine this expansion. however... claiming that they are sometimes better since they have more stoneskin buffs is bs. Avoidance > stone skin for anything that isent a huge aoe death touch you name it. With only 1 death save with nearly 10 min recast when brawlers have 3 triggers to it. Mit? well you are right there up where plate tanks are. The diff arnt that much.And can you pls name a high end guild that still use a SK as MT?</blockquote>Darkonx in strike.The only thing killing tanks now is huge aoe damage, co-op strike is no worse then an auto atk hit. When you deal with any fight with 2 aoe's a GOOD gaurd can block every AOE. Learn to time aoe's, use act and/or GC.</blockquote>And your point is? I have never said a guard cant block AoE:s and so on my point was that brawlers have just about the right tools to block them aswell. And have a over all lower inc damage on the lower damage. So how are a well played guardian more defensiv again? It was you that said it. Again im not saying guards cant tank stuff they can and they do it well brawlers just do it better.</blockquote>Learn to read instead of making up stuff like bruener. I said nothing about guards being more defensive. I said a well played guard is just as good as most brawlers. So it was YOU who made up that BS. And yoru final statement is WRONG. Due to the number of stoneskins on some fights gaurds do it better, right now. On many fights brawlers rely on thier death save to eat numerous one shot Aoe's. If they go beyond that count they need the healer in group to cast thier death save until temps are back up. Monks are better then bruisers because they have a single trigger stoneskin on a 45 sec recast. A guard in general has a stoneskin ability up on nearly every aoe. The death save is mostly just insurance if something goes wrong. Personally i think the duration should be permanant. With the reduction of strikethrough and the fact any brawler can give the guard more avoid. The avoid difference is negliable. Alot of this stuff was fixed when the mechanics changes were made. Strikethrough was reduced to SF levels and coop was neutered into a barely noticable proc.</blockquote>Your wrong guardians, (if played well) can do amazingly well if played right. Better then most brawlers, currently. Since they have more stoneskins then any other tank on a much faster recast. <------------------------- Your own words Better then most brawlers if played well. I guess you mean that stone skin gives guardian more dps? oh wait... You better read what you write befor you start claiming other.Guardian stone skin is tower of stones 60secs Reuse cap. last man standing 2.30 reusecap (you need 100% reuse to get it there... Perfect counter 2min at reuse cap same there you need 100% reuse for it to cap.Monk one caps at 30 sec reuse(with 100% reuse) With other words monk will win in the long run. Anything els?

Amanathia

12-09-2011, 09:50 AM

Brawlers have a lot of advantages, but Guardians are great as well. Big hp buff for group, too, and the stoneskin proc for group that lasts quite a while is extremely nice (super useful in say, large trash packs in drunder). My only complaints about guard really are: DPS is pretty low, but meh. Death save cooldown is a bit too long imho. Guards are in a good place. I love in heroic as well cuz you have a super easy time w/aggro and you can death save group (multiple times if u adorn, can be handy in say EOW heroic where stuff memwipes nonstop, I dunno about x4 stuff probably not as useful ther). Also guards have an effect on legs that boosts avoidance a bit when using an ability, and that is basically always up. You have a couple stoneskins on a fairly short cooldown, enough for the "red text" stuff....or for say, one grouping drunder x2, you have enough abilities to turtle up to kill the boar packs and stuff without dying or needing a death save, it does take some skill and common sense to time everything though.The class really feels very balanced. Only thing I'd change would probably be to drop the re-use on the death save to 12 minute base or so.

Talathion

12-09-2011, 03:37 PM

<cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers have a lot of advantages, but Guardians are great as well. Big hp buff for group, too, and the stoneskin proc for group that lasts quite a while is extremely nice (super useful in say, large trash packs in drunder). My only complaints about guard really are: DPS is pretty low, but meh. Death save cooldown is a bit too long imho. Guards are in a good place. I love in heroic as well cuz you have a super easy time w/aggro and you can death save group (multiple times if u adorn, can be handy in say EOW heroic where stuff memwipes nonstop, I dunno about x4 stuff probably not as useful ther). Also guards have an effect on legs that boosts avoidance a bit when using an ability, and that is basically always up. You have a couple stoneskins on a fairly short cooldown, enough for the "red text" stuff....or for say, one grouping drunder x2, you have enough abilities to turtle up to kill the boar packs and stuff without dying or needing a death save, it does take some skill and common sense to time everything though.The class really feels very balanced. Only thing I'd change would probably be to drop the re-use on the death save to 12 minute base or so.</blockquote>Monks and Bruisers have the best healing ability in the game, a 3 trigger death prevention with a short cooldown (2-3 minutes.) and heals you for 100%. Guardians get a death prevention thats 10 minute reuse and only prevents 1 death, and heals only about 50% of your life.

Netty

12-09-2011, 07:49 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers have a lot of advantages, but Guardians are great as well. Big hp buff for group, too, and the stoneskin proc for group that lasts quite a while is extremely nice (super useful in say, large trash packs in drunder). My only complaints about guard really are: DPS is pretty low, but meh. Death save cooldown is a bit too long imho. Guards are in a good place. I love in heroic as well cuz you have a super easy time w/aggro and you can death save group (multiple times if u adorn, can be handy in say EOW heroic where stuff memwipes nonstop, I dunno about x4 stuff probably not as useful ther). Also guards have an effect on legs that boosts avoidance a bit when using an ability, and that is basically always up. You have a couple stoneskins on a fairly short cooldown, enough for the "red text" stuff....or for say, one grouping drunder x2, you have enough abilities to turtle up to kill the boar packs and stuff without dying or needing a death save, it does take some skill and common sense to time everything though.The class really feels very balanced. Only thing I'd change would probably be to drop the re-use on the death save to 12 minute base or so.</blockquote>Monks and Bruisers have the best healing ability in the game, a 3 trigger death prevention with a short cooldown (2-3 minutes.) and heals you for 100%. Guardians get a death prevention thats 10 minute reuse and only prevents 1 death, and heals only about 50% of your life.</blockquote>No they dont. dident you say that you where quiting not to long ago? was close to happy.