Guild Charters & Research Reducers with the all F2P conversion [Archive]

SmokeJumper

11-15-2011, 01:31 AM

<cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote>I looked here <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=509050" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=509050</a> to see if a few specific items currently in the EQ2x marketplace where mentioned; however, did not see them.The ONLY items listed as being removed are:<ul><li>Power potion</li><li>Health potion</li><li>Self-rez scroll</li><li>Wand of Obliteration</li><li>Rune of Devastation</li><li>Mastercrafted Equipment (all)</li><li>Tradeskill Components</li></ul>What will happen to the following items?<ul><li>Guild Charters (450 SC to make a guild-- CURRENTLY REQUIRED TO MAKE GUILD ON EQ2x). </li><li>Research Reducers</li><li>Ammo Pack VENDOR Quality (Level 70 Plain Ferrite Arrows) & (Level 80 Plain Titanium Arrows)</li></ul>thank you for your response in advance.p.s. still dont know what forum to put this in so you'll find it also in EQ2x.</blockquote>heh. Oops. Thanks for the catch. Not intentionally omitted.I'll get an official statement together tomorrow.

retro_guy

11-15-2011, 05:22 AM

What happens if you've bought heaps of these already?Do they "poof" when xtended gets turned into Live?

darwich

11-15-2011, 08:13 AM

are we going to have to go to a different board when this launches??

Nynaeve

11-15-2011, 08:26 AM

well. I didn't see a one time fee to make a guild as a thread to any old-time subscribers who certainly all have their guilds established already long ago anyway, but SJ's response probably means they'll do away with it anyway.They should make guild creation only free for paying subscribers though!Free players can get away with nearly paying nothing anyway already , especially when they're already Lv90! Old Veterans raiding and playing the game without paying will certainly NOT help the game cover it's development costs for future updates.

agentsix

11-15-2011, 08:35 AM

<cite>darwich wrote:</cite><blockquote>are we going to have to go to a different board when this launches??</blockquote>No. The EQ2X board with go read-only and then close. Everyone will be here.

Katz

11-15-2011, 08:57 AM

I thought they said they were working on a new site.

agentsix

11-15-2011, 09:01 AM

<cite>Katz wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought they said they were working on a new site. </blockquote>I think that's much further down the road.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=10348" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x...?topic_id=10348</a>Hello Freeport! Welcome to the large EQII family! In order to better serve you as customers and as a community, we are committed to moving to one set of forums. The EQIIX forums will be set to read-only at the launch of EverQuest II “Free To Play Your Way,” to allow you time to gather important information and fun threads that you want to keep. When the new EQII service launches, you’ll be able to register your username on the <a href="../../eq2x/posts/Hello%20Freeport%21%20Welcome%20to%20the%20large%2 0EQII%20family%21%20In%20order%20to%20better%20ser ve%20you%20as%20customers%20and%20as%20a%20communi ty,%20we%20are%20committed%20to%20moving%20to%20on e%20set%20of%20forums.%20The%20EQIIX%20forums%20wi ll%20be%20set%20to%20read-only%20at%20the%20launch%20of%20EverQuest%20II%20% E2%80%9CFree%20To%20Play%20Your%20Way,%E2%80%9D%20 to%20allow%20you%20time%20to%20gather%20important% 20information%20and%20fun%20threads%20that%20you%2 0want%20to%20keep.%20When%20the%20new%20EQII%20ser vice%20launches,%20you%E2%80%99ll%20be%20able%20to %20register%20your%20username%20on%20the%20EQII%20 forums%20and%20carry%20on%20within%20your%20new,%2 0bigger%20community%21%20We%E2%80%99ll%20be%20ther e%20to%20answer%20any%20questions%20or%20problems% 20that%20you%20may%20have.%20We%E2%80%99ll%20post% 20more%20info%20to%20help%20you%20in%20the%20trans ition%20well%20before%20launch.%20The%20read-only%20EQIIX%20forum%20will%20be%20shut%20down%20a %20month%20after%20the%20new%20EQII%20service%20la unches.%20We%20are%20excited%20about%20the%20trans ition%20and%20hope%20that%20you%20will%20be%20as%2 0well%21%20Just%20a%20reminder%20that%20the%20Free port%20server%20is%20not%20going%20anywhere%20%E2% 80%93%20it%20remains%20your%20home.%20Check%20the% 20FAQ%20for%20more%20details%21%20%3Clink%3E" target="_blank">EQII forums</a> and carry on within your new, bigger community! We’ll be there to answer any questions or problems that you may have. We’ll post more info to help you in the transition well before launch.The read-only EQIIX forum will be shut down a month after the new EQII service launches. We are excited about the transition and hope that you will be as well!

Calthine

11-15-2011, 01:40 PM

<cite>retro_guy wrote:</cite><blockquote>What happens if you've bought heaps of these already?Do they "poof" when xtended gets turned into Live?</blockquote>Smokejumper has said many times that if you bought it it's still yours. In the case of consumables, you'll eventually use them up and that will be that.

SmokeJumper

11-15-2011, 11:38 PM

Sorry. Answers will be tomorrow. EQ's expansion launch was today (which went really well) and we had zillions of meetings about mercenaries and dungeon maker today...so I didn't get to this until the end of today.However, everyone's been notified of the plan we want to pursue, and unless there is bellyaching from folks tomorrow, I will be back to post the details then.More soon!

SmokeJumper

11-15-2011, 11:38 PM

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>retro_guy wrote:</cite><blockquote>What happens if you've bought heaps of these already?Do they "poof" when xtended gets turned into Live?</blockquote>Smokejumper has said many times that if you bought it it's still yours. In the case of consumables, you'll eventually use them up and that will be that.</blockquote>Correct.

TalisX1

11-16-2011, 10:38 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry. Answers will be tomorrow. EQ's expansion launch was today (which went really well) and we had zillions of meetings about mercenaries and dungeon maker today...so I didn't get to this until the end of today.However, everyone's been notified of the plan we want to pursue, and unless there is bellyaching from folks tomorrow, I will be back to post the details then.More soon!</blockquote>So can we assume the bellyaching happened?Silat

SmokeJumper

11-16-2011, 11:39 PM

hehehe. Nope. We're just all *that* busy right now (as you might imagine).But...answers!1) There will be no guild charters in the marketplace (as there are on EQ2X). Guilds can be created for free on any server after the conversion. (This will result in an explosion of new guilds as free-to-play folks come onto the servers, but we didn't like the effect of throttling guild creation on EQ2X. After watching it for a year, we feel that it stifles socialization, which is a bad idea.) We will grant a refund to anyone that purchased a guild charter on Freeport in the 60 days before we launch the free to play conversion2) The research reducer items will stay on the marketplace. Everyone seems to agree that their effect is almost completely innocuous because getting the masters for free is incredibly easy in game. It just takes time, but it doesn't take effort of any sort.3) The arrows currently available on the EQ2X marketplace are going away.I'll repost most of this as an addendum to my Producer's Letter.

Onorem

11-17-2011, 12:05 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>hehehe. Nope. We're just all *that* busy right now (as you might imagine).But...answers!1) There will be no guild charters in the marketplace. Guilds can be created for free. (This will result in an explosion of new guilds as free-to-play folks come onto the servers, but we didn't like the effect of throttling guild creation on EQ2X. After watching it for a year, we feel that it stifles socialization, which is a bad idea.) The delay in responding was entirely around me ensuring that we could grant a refund to anyone that purchased a guild charter on Freeport in the 60 days before we launch the free to play conversion. The answer? We can, and will.2) The research reducer items are going to stay on the marketplace. Everyone seems to agree that their effect is almost completely innocuous because getting the masters for free is incredibly easy in game. It just takes time, but it doesn't take effort of any sort.3) The arrows are going away. To be honest, we thought that was just a convenience item for Rangers that ran out of arrows on a raid anyway. Very, very few people will miss them (because very, very few people ever bought them. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />I'll repost most of this as an addendum to my Producer's Letter.</blockquote>1. Good. I don't hate small guilds, but I really think that they are a huge part of the problem when it comes to people not being able to find groups. That said, guilds shouldn't require cash to start.2. Absolutely horrible. Clearly an advantage paid for with cash. Who is the 'everyone' that agrees with that?3. Good. You tried to sneak them onto live once. It should've been a pretty easy decision after the response you got then.

thesiren

11-17-2011, 12:11 AM

I don't buy research reducers but I don't mind them being in the marketplace. They're really not a big deal, and as I recall they're pretty expensive to boot. If someone wants to support SOE with so much money for so little, when masters aren't a big deal to get researched for free in game anyway... whatever.

Onorem

11-17-2011, 12:24 AM

<cite>thesiren wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't buy research reducers but I don't mind them being in the marketplace. They're really not a big deal, and as I recall they're pretty expensive to boot. If someone wants to support SOE with so much money for so little, when masters aren't a big deal to get researched for free in game anyway... whatever.</blockquote>You supporting the cash shop is as surprising as my hating it. Have you at any point ever acknowledged something being a 'big deal' on the shop?This is a purchased advantage which also effects the price of masters on the broker.

thesiren

11-17-2011, 12:33 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thesiren wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't buy research reducers but I don't mind them being in the marketplace. They're really not a big deal, and as I recall they're pretty expensive to boot. If someone wants to support SOE with so much money for so little, when masters aren't a big deal to get researched for free in game anyway... whatever.</blockquote>You supporting the cash shop is as surprising as my hating it. Have you at any point ever acknowledged something being a 'big deal' on the shop?This is a purchased advantage which also effects the price of masters on the broker.</blockquote>Oh please! If anything has borked the live brokers beyond all recognition (besides the full 7 years of greed and inflation) it was all the "Trading SC for plat!" that bloody overran every live chat for ages. I'm sorry, but...get real. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />SLRs? Bots? "Buying PLs!" They've all been around for ages on live too. I'm sorry you don't like the proven successful model that all the live servers are converting into, but acting like this other stuff hasn't been overrunning the live servers and helping decay them over the years even more than shop purchases ever could, and pretending the SC shop is the first taint to the blessed soil, is just a wee bit comical.

Onorem

11-17-2011, 12:40 AM

<cite>thesiren wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thesiren wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't buy research reducers but I don't mind them being in the marketplace. They're really not a big deal, and as I recall they're pretty expensive to boot. If someone wants to support SOE with so much money for so little, when masters aren't a big deal to get researched for free in game anyway... whatever.</blockquote>You supporting the cash shop is as surprising as my hating it. Have you at any point ever acknowledged something being a 'big deal' on the shop?This is a purchased advantage which also effects the price of masters on the broker.</blockquote>Oh please! If anything has borked the live brokers beyond all recognition (besides the full 7 years of greed and inflation) it was all the "Trading SC for plat!" that bloody overran every live chat for ages. I'm sorry, but...get real. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />SLRs? Bots? "Buying PLs!" They've all been around for ages on live too. I'm sorry you don't like the obviously very successful model that live is converting into, but acting like this other stuff hasn't been overrunning the live servers and helping decay them over the years even more than shop purchases ever could, and pretending the SC shop is the first taint to the blessed soil, is just a wee bit comical.</blockquote>I hate that trading SC for plat is allowed, but since SOE gets a cut, they let it go on. Not a huge fan of SLR, but it at least requires players completing content. Bots? What do bots have to do with anything? Clearly against the rules and people found to be using them should be banned. Buying PLs? Meh. If the plat was earned, spend it how you want. All that said, none of those things are broker items. None of those things create plat out of nowhere. They just shift plat that is already in the game.

Barx

11-17-2011, 02:34 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) The research reducer items will stay on the marketplace. Everyone seems to agree that their effect is almost completely innocuous because getting the masters for free is incredibly easy in game. It just takes time, but it doesn't take effort of any sort.</blockquote>So much for asking the playerbase before adding any EQ2X item to live, that might be a new record for breaking a promise.The market for masters is already trash since so many drop off raid mobs (1 per mob, 2 on zone bosses), so lets add another way to make them less valuable... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />Seriously, if you want people to have confidence in what you say than stick to it. Do a poll and see if people think they're a good idea live, not "everyone seems to agree."

Tigress

11-17-2011, 02:44 AM

have you seen the prices for the research reducer? if someone wants to spend plat to buy a master off the broker for a character below 90, i'm always surprised. i would guess that it is the exception, rather than the rule & is most likely those who like to level-lock. for those at 90, its an unwise decision to master out all of your spells with SC. i might be a little off bc its from memory and i'm tired but... to reduce it down 28 days would cost 600 SC, with an avg of 35 spells that's 21,000 SC OR $210. how many ppl will spend that? not many.

Onorem

11-17-2011, 03:01 AM

<cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote>have you seen the prices for the research reducer? if someone wants to spend plat to buy a master off the broker for a character below 90, i'm always surprised. i would guess that it is the exception, rather than the rule & is most likely those who like to level-lock. for those at 90, its an unwise decision to master out all of your spells with SC. i might be a little off bc its from memory and i'm tired but... to reduce it down 28 days would cost 600 SC, with an avg of 35 spells that's 21,000 SC OR $210. how many ppl will spend that? not many.</blockquote>I don't really care what the specific prices for the reducer are. This is buying an advantage with cash.If the price is so unreasonable, then I suppose nobody would ever consider buying one. If nobody would buy it because it's such an unreasonable value, then why do they need to have it for sale?

Valena

11-17-2011, 03:41 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) The research reducer items will stay on the marketplace. Everyone seems to agree that their effect is almost completely innocuous because getting the masters for free is incredibly easy in game. It just takes time, but it doesn't take effort of any sort.</blockquote>What on earth do you mean getting Masters takes no effort just time? Have you played EQ at all?You can Research one level 90 Master a month for no effort, just time, but if you want to get fully mastered (as you should) then you do have to use some effort to get them. You can get them for free by running Instances or Raids, or buy them from the Broker with Plat that you've spent effort getting. These do take effort, they don't come from sitting around with your thumb stuck somewhere dark and wet.But this sort of comment from the Lead Producer really depresses and annoys me. Nice way to totally insult all of your players and make being fully Mastered appear so trivial. You maybe want to think about a career in motivational speaking when you leave Sony ..

Dawkitty

11-17-2011, 04:09 AM

<cite>Whiplash@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) The research reducer items will stay on the marketplace. Everyone seems to agree that their effect is almost completely innocuous because getting the masters for free is incredibly easy in game. It just takes time, but it doesn't take effort of any sort.</blockquote>What on earth do you mean getting Masters takes no effort just time? Have you played EQ at all?You can Research one level 90 Master a month for no effort, just time, but if you want to get fully mastered (as you should) then you do have to use some effort to get them. You can get them for free by running Instances or Raids, or buy them from the Broker with Plat that you've spent effort getting. These do take effort, they don't come from sitting around with your thumb stuck somewhere dark and wet.But this sort of comment from the Lead Producer really depresses and annoys me. Nice way to totally insult all of your players and make being fully Mastered appear so trivial. You maybe want to think about a career in motivational speaking when you leave Sony ..</blockquote>I fully mastered an illusionist by spending about 300 plat that I made in a relatively short amount of time, and a couple of months of waiting for research.Other characters have gotten a fair amount of masters just by playing in a casual manner, and waiting for research. I wouldn't call any of what I did as "effort". It took more effort on my part to get a crafter the ability to craft Rygorr armor than it did to get masters for any of my characters.Really, let's make more mountains out of molehills.

Daggster

11-17-2011, 04:15 AM

Yes, it might have required lots of effort "back in the day" to get mastered. Now most masters cost less than 30pp, some go even below 20pp with the broker fee, the cheapest one I've bought at lvl 81-90 range was 14pp or so with the broker fee. That kinds of hoards of plat are not really hard to come by. 10 mins a day for a few weeks and you have the cheaper masters covered, then just wait for the research on the rest. Effort? Hardly.

millie

11-17-2011, 04:21 AM

<cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote>have you seen the prices for the research reducer? if someone wants to spend plat to buy a master off the broker for a character below 90, i'm always surprised. i would guess that it is the exception, rather than the rule & is most likely those who like to level-lock. for those at 90, its an unwise decision to master out all of your spells with SC. i might be a little off bc its from memory and i'm tired but... to reduce it down 28 days would cost 600 SC, with an avg of 35 spells that's 21,000 SC OR $210. how many ppl will spend that? not many.</blockquote>Hmmm, Inquisitor spell Alleviation VII master on sale Antonia Bayle Broke 240plat.1500Station Cash card being sold for 250plat to 300 plat.28 days research reduction 600 Station Cash, sounds like a good choice to buy the "Research Reducers" to me.Who knows this might 'cap' the price of masters at 125plat.

Valena

11-17-2011, 04:32 AM

<cite>Dawkitty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Whiplash@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></blockquote>I fully mastered an illusionist by spending about 300 plat that I made in a relatively short amount of time, and a couple of months of waiting for research.Other characters have gotten a fair amount of masters just by playing in a casual manner, and waiting for research. I wouldn't call any of what I did as "effort". It took more effort on my part to get a crafter the ability to craft Rygorr armor than it did to get masters for any of my characters.Really, let's make more mountains out of molehills.</blockquote>So what is effort? Personally I don't consider playing a game effort at all but a pastime to be enjoyed.

Dawkitty

11-17-2011, 07:18 AM

<cite>Whiplash@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dawkitty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Whiplash@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite></blockquote>I fully mastered an illusionist by spending about 300 plat that I made in a relatively short amount of time, and a couple of months of waiting for research.Other characters have gotten a fair amount of masters just by playing in a casual manner, and waiting for research. I wouldn't call any of what I did as "effort". It took more effort on my part to get a crafter the ability to craft Rygorr armor than it did to get masters for any of my characters.Really, let's make more mountains out of molehills.</blockquote>So what is effort? Personally I don't consider playing a game effort at all but a pastime to be enjoyed.</blockquote>Well effort wasn't really the word I would have used in the first place. Mindless tedium is more like it. When I farm plat, I find it fun because I can do different instances, raid with friends, etc to get that plat. That, to me is not effort, nor is it mindless tedium. What -is- mindless tedium is doing one of four instances per day, constantly pressing just three buttons the entire time, hoping against hope that this day will be the day that the magical book will drop so you can craft Rygorr armor.Now, I do realize that some people's mileage will vary, and what my idea of fun isn't the same as someone else. That's fine. I personally would never buy the research assistants because I honestly don't feel that you need to be fully mastered to be viable in a raid. You certainly don't need any masters just to cruise through heroic content. But there are some that would be more than willing to lay a little money down, and frankly, it doesn't bother me one iota. Mostly because if someone told me that I could have bought that same Rygorr book for SC, I'd have been sorely tempted to do so. I doubt that'll ever happen, but there you go.So if the way you currently do things is enjoyable for you, then don't feel the need that you must pay, because you don't, and won't ever have to. Masters won't ever stop being sold on the broker, despite what some people might think. I doubt that many people will buy the SC items. Enough will to justify having it for sale, sure, but never too many.

zorkan

11-17-2011, 12:42 PM

SOE didn't understand the key aspects of an MMO when they introduced the researchers and now they are justifying _BUYING MASTERS WITH REAL MONEY_ by the introduction of the researchers claiming that it only takes time and no effort (yes, because you added researchers!).This is an insult to the intelligence of the player base.Not that I will care much anymore after December 15, but still...

Zepor

11-17-2011, 04:14 PM

Anyone who thinks that keeping the Research Reducers in is NOT a massive cash grab is kidding themselves.Sure, you can research one master per month, at that rate it will only take 2 years(ish) to fully master your character.Let me ask you this: How much do you think T9 Beastlord masters are going to cost, when you are competing with hundreds and hundreds of other level 90 beastlord alts that all have freshly gotten to level 90 and need their masters as well? That Research Reducer is starting to look pretty tempting huh?As if this wasn't exactly their plan.

millie

11-17-2011, 06:34 PM

<cite>Zepor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone who thinks that keeping the Research Reducers in is NOT a massive cash grab is kidding themselves.Sure, you can research one master per month, at that rate it will only take 2 years(ish) to fully master your character.Let me ask you this: How much do you think T9 Beastlord masters are going to cost, when you are competing with hundreds and hundreds of other level 90 beastlord alts that all have freshly gotten to level 90 and need their masters as well? That Research Reducer is starting to look pretty tempting huh?As if this wasn't exactly their plan.</blockquote>Well according to my math (see above) I would expect 75-125 plat per Beastlord Master in the 81-90 range with the price having a lower floor at lower levels. However some masters at all levels will be up to 125plat for a while.Within six months the price of Beastlord masters in the 81-90 range will be 15-40 plat for most spells/CA's with a few up to 125plat.Without "Research Reducers" the price of Beastlord Masters could well have spiked to 1000 plat or more. Which is the more obnoxious effect: SOE marketplace income or player price gouging?

Yimway

11-17-2011, 06:46 PM

Felshades

11-17-2011, 06:53 PM

<cite>Nynaeve wrote:</cite><blockquote>well. I didn't see a one time fee to make a guild as a thread to any old-time subscribers who certainly all have their guilds established already long ago anyway, but SJ's response probably means they'll do away with it anyway.They should make guild creation only free for paying subscribers though!Free players can get away with nearly paying nothing anyway already , especially when they're already Lv90! Old Veterans raiding and playing the game without paying will certainly NOT help the game cover it's development costs for future updates.</blockquote>Free to play won't be able to scribe master spells or equip newly acquired fabled gear so I don't expect them to be able to raid for long.

Felshades

11-17-2011, 06:56 PM

Felshades

11-17-2011, 06:58 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote>have you seen the prices for the research reducer? if someone wants to spend plat to buy a master off the broker for a character below 90, i'm always surprised. i would guess that it is the exception, rather than the rule & is most likely those who like to level-lock. for those at 90, its an unwise decision to master out all of your spells with SC. i might be a little off bc its from memory and i'm tired but... to reduce it down 28 days would cost 600 SC, with an avg of 35 spells that's 21,000 SC OR $210. how many ppl will spend that? not many.</blockquote>I don't really care what the specific prices for the reducer are. This is buying an advantage with cash.If the price is so unreasonable, then I suppose nobody would ever consider buying one. If nobody would buy it because it's such an unreasonable value, then why do they need to have it for sale?</blockquote>This is different from going to a walmart on a a double/triple station cash weekend and selling the SC for plat, and then buying your masters that way how?

Lempo

11-17-2011, 07:16 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>hehehe. Nope. We're just all *that* busy right now (as you might imagine).But...answers!1) There will be no guild charters in the marketplace (as there are on EQ2X). Guilds can be created for free on any server after the conversion. (This will result in an explosion of new guilds as free-to-play folks come onto the servers, but we didn't like the effect of throttling guild creation on EQ2X. After watching it for a year, we feel that it stifles socialization, which is a bad idea.) We will grant a refund to anyone that purchased a guild charter on Freeport in the 60 days before we launch the free to play conversion2) The research reducer items will stay on the marketplace. Everyone seems to agree that their effect is almost completely innocuous because getting the masters for free is incredibly easy in game. It just takes time, but it doesn't take effort of any sort.3) The arrows currently available on the EQ2X marketplace are going away.I'll repost most of this as an addendum to my Producer's Letter.</blockquote>This question was asked at 5PM PST on the 14th, addressed by you on the 15th and an answer was given on the 16th, for that I must say getting an answer and responding was great. I'm not going to go dig up the post but I know it was made by you within 5 days of giving this answer. Who were the participants in this 'poll' that 'EVERYONE' agreed it didn't really matter?What post am I referring to you ask?The post where you said that ALL items of this nature would be removed from the SC shop, and that the playerbase would decide through in-game polls. These things NEED to be removed from the game this thread clearly indicates a rejection of it and you should live up to your word about letting the playerbase decide. These things need to have an immunity that allows them to be used once per spell, and that is only if the playerbase decides that they want them in the first place.This has a direct impact on game economy, whether it be crafters selling experts or masters that people sell for plat.You vanished from this thread as soon as someone pointed out that leaving these in the game was a direct contradiction to what you stated about the in game polls. That may not have been intentional, maybe you have not saw it as you have been actively responding moreso lately, but someone needs to redirect you to this thread. The least you could do is acknowledge there is an outcry against it, and a valid one at that, because your silence can only make one infer that you couldn't care less what the player base thinks of these items.

Gungo

11-17-2011, 07:16 PM

Research reducers is a pay for power feature feature and it should not be allowed.Honestly the vendor quality ammo is less of a pay for power feature then research reducers. My guess is Smokejumper wants to have the research reducers on live because he feels its a $$$ grab waiting to happen with beastlords being released. Its a classic bait and switch tactic. O look we are removing these items from eq2x that no one bought, but this item that is a blatant example of pay for power we are going to keep because people bought them alot."The playerbase would decide through in-game polls"What happened? Lied already!

Lempo

11-17-2011, 07:20 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote>have you seen the prices for the research reducer? if someone wants to spend plat to buy a master off the broker for a character below 90, i'm always surprised. i would guess that it is the exception, rather than the rule & is most likely those who like to level-lock. for those at 90, its an unwise decision to master out all of your spells with SC. i might be a little off bc its from memory and i'm tired but... to reduce it down 28 days would cost 600 SC, with an avg of 35 spells that's 21,000 SC OR $210. how many ppl will spend that? not many.</blockquote>I don't really care what the specific prices for the reducer are. This is buying an advantage with cash.If the price is so unreasonable, then I suppose nobody would ever consider buying one. If nobody would buy it because it's such an unreasonable value, then why do they need to have it for sale?</blockquote>This is different from going to a walmart on a a double/triple station cash weekend and selling the SC for plat, and then buying your masters that way how?</blockquote>Because the masters have to be looted and are not introduced to the game via 'Hocus-Pocus' in an accelerated manner in what is a clear attempt to test the waters and see just how much will be tolerated and how far down the slippery slope of pay to win they can go.Your comparison is no different than if people were allowed to 'research' raid armor through station cash purchases, none at all. The research assistant is bad enough as it is, if it only went to adept a non issue, beyond that it hurts crafters and the broker.

Onorem

11-17-2011, 07:29 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thesiren wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't buy research reducers but I don't mind them being in the marketplace. They're really not a big deal, and as I recall they're pretty expensive to boot. If someone wants to support SOE with so much money for so little, when masters aren't a big deal to get researched for free in game anyway... whatever.</blockquote>You supporting the cash shop is as surprising as my hating it. Have you at any point ever acknowledged something being a 'big deal' on the shop?This is a purchased advantage which also effects the price of masters on the broker.</blockquote>Masters have been mute fodder for quite some time now.I can sell the transmute results for more than I can the master themselves. This coming on our third expansion at level 90 is hurting the master market more than anything.</blockquote>I still need over a hundred masters from 81-90 if I want all my characters to be set. I do agree that the value of masters had gone down dramatically already. That doesn't mean this change won't hurt the value even more. The value on the broker was supposed to be more of a side note to the more important 'purchased advantage' part of my previous statement.<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote>have you seen the prices for the research reducer? if someone wants to spend plat to buy a master off the broker for a character below 90, i'm always surprised. i would guess that it is the exception, rather than the rule & is most likely those who like to level-lock. for those at 90, its an unwise decision to master out all of your spells with SC. i might be a little off bc its from memory and i'm tired but... to reduce it down 28 days would cost 600 SC, with an avg of 35 spells that's 21,000 SC OR $210. how many ppl will spend that? not many.</blockquote>I don't really care what the specific prices for the reducer are. This is buying an advantage with cash.If the price is so unreasonable, then I suppose nobody would ever consider buying one. If nobody would buy it because it's such an unreasonable value, then why do they need to have it for sale?</blockquote>This is different from going to a walmart on a a double/triple station cash weekend and selling the SC for plat, and then buying your masters that way how?</blockquote>I've never bought or redeemed double/triple station cash. I don't think you should be able to sell SC for plat. If SOE wasn't getting a cut of the money, they'd shut down that loophole.

Grrimreaper

11-17-2011, 08:42 PM

Bringing the research reducers to the live servers is a terrible idea, and a perfect way to ruin the live severs economy.I hope this decision that "everyone" thinks is fine and dandy gets revoked.This game is really starting to disappoint me.

Golbezz

11-17-2011, 09:40 PM

agentsix

11-17-2011, 09:42 PM

<cite>Disgusting@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bringing the research reducers to the live servers is a terrible idea, and a perfect way to ruin the live severs economy.I hope this decision that "everyone" thinks is fine and dandy gets revoked.This game is really starting to disappoint me.</blockquote>I picked a class out at random - Warden - and I did a search on AB as to what the prices were for Warden Master spells. I limited the search to 85-90.I did the same on Freeport.What I found was the prices of Master spells were often times much HIGHER on Freeport even though Freeport has research reducers.For exampleIcefall VIII - AB (16p 48g) Freeport (1680p) That's not an error!Willow Wisp VII - AB (16p 50g) Freeport (39 p 20g)Undergrowth IV - AB (19p 80g) Freeport (252p) That's not an error!So if research reducers were terrible for the economy we'd see lower prices for top tier Masters on Freeport than on an established server like AB. In fact, we see the opposite.Either there is so much more supply on AB due to how long the server has been around, or very few people actually use the reducers.Either way, I suspect research reducers will have less impact on Master prices than people think.

Geothe

11-17-2011, 09:53 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Research reducers is a pay for power feature feature and it should not be allowed.Honestly the vendor quality ammo is less of a pay for power feature then research reducers. My guess is Smokejumper wants to have the research reducers on live because he feels its a $$$ grab waiting to happen with beastlords being released. Its a classic bait and switch tactic. O look we are removing these items from eq2x that no one bought, but this item that is a blatant example of pay for power we are going to keep because people bought them alot."The playerbase would decide through in-game polls"What happened? Lied already!</blockquote>QFT.Didnt take long to Smokejumper to bring about another outright lie!This is absurd.Pay-for-power has no place on a subscription server.

Golbezz

11-17-2011, 09:58 PM

<cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I picked a class out at random - Warden - and I did a search on AB as to what the prices were for Warden Master spells. I limited the search to 85-90.I did the same on Freeport.What I found was the prices of Master spells were often times much HIGHER on Freeport even though Freeport has research reducers.For exampleIcefall VIII - AB (16p 48g) Freeport (1680p) That's not an error!Willow Wisp VII - AB (16p 50g) Freeport (39 p 20g)Undergrowth IV - AB (19p 80g) Freeport (252p) That's not an error! So if research reducers were terrible for the economy we'd see lower prices for top tier Masters on Freeport than on an established server like AB. In fact, we see the opposite.Either there is so much more supply on AB due to how long the server has been around, or very few people actually use the reducers.Either way, I suspect research reducers will have less impact on Master prices than people think.</blockquote>I'd say it has more to do with the volume of players at level cap + age of server. If your population is just getting to cap and eating up masters very fast with many new 90's then yes, prices will be far higher. Also if fewer players are farming the masters that will increase prices too (think in terms of raiders with an army of well geared alts that can solo farm). Combine everything and yes, the master prices will drop along with distilled manas and void infusions. I'm curious to know what the prices of the T9 transmuting components are on these 2 servers, I think it would support the situation I described above.You also did not mention the volume of masters listed. I suspect AB would have no less than 5x as many masters listed using the warden class L85-90. The short term impact may not be as dramatic (it will drive down master, mana and infusion prices) but the pay-to-win side will be quite clear the day the level cap eventually goes up, well, if this game is still around by that time.

Golbezz

11-17-2011, 09:59 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>QFT.Didnt take long to Smokejumper to bring about another outright lie!This is absurd.Pay-for-power has no place on a subscription server.</blockquote>/agree, keep "pay-for-power" (pay-to-win) out of this game.

SibsLynx

11-17-2011, 10:07 PM

Nothing that is on the SC marketplace should be in anyway beneficial to in game performance on live servers. That is what was promised by SJ himself. It really calls into question the integrity and honesty of someone when you constantly have to question their word. This game has taken a bad turn from the direction that the community loved, when developers acctually took into account players opinions. You can argue from both directions very fervently why f2p is good or bad for the community, but the fact is we were told it would never be implemented into live. I can forsee alot of things like these research pots being added and each time people will argue its impact, till one day you will notice that the game is controlled by the amount of SC in your wallet. Ive played this game since launch in every aspect and I have never seen it in a poorer state or with a community so divided. Personally I can no longer support something so blatently against everything that was promised, but this post will most likely be deleted like so many others who voice their opinions. I wish you all the best.

agentsix

11-17-2011, 10:09 PM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote>You also did not mention the volume of masters listed. I suspect AB would have no less than 5x as many masters listed using the warden class L85-90.</blockquote>AB had 10 pages of Warden Masters level 85-90.Freeport had 6 pages of Warden Masters level 85-90.So there is not that much more supply on AB.

agentsix

11-17-2011, 10:19 PM

<cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote>You also did not mention the volume of masters listed. I suspect AB would have no less than 5x as many masters listed using the warden class L85-90.</blockquote>AB had 10 pages of Warden Masters level 85-90.Freeport had 6 pages of Warden Masters level 85-90.So there is not that much more supply on AB.</blockquote>To get a better look at supply I did a search on Freeport and AB of all Masters level 81-90.AB -380 PagesFreeport - 353 PagesIt seems that supply is nominally more on AB.Looking at the prices of the first 5 pages I see trend to slightly higher prices on Freeport.On AB, page 5 prices range from 13-14 plat. On Freeport, page 5 prices are around 16 plat.So, even though AB has nominally more Master spells level 81-90, their prices trend lower. This means Freeport Masters are higher in price even though Freeport has research reducers.Perhaps the higher prices on Freeport are due to greater demand (more players getting to top tier because of it being a younger server) but I'm not sure that factor would balance out any impact of research reducers.In short, it appears research reducers have little if any affect on the prices of Master spells level 81-90.

Golbezz

11-17-2011, 10:41 PM

<cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>To get a better look at supply I did a search on Freeport and AB of all Masters level 81-90.AB -380 PagesFreeport - 353 PagesIt seems that supply is nominally more on AB.Looking at the prices of the first 5 pages I see trend to slightly higher prices on Freeport.On AB, page 5 prices range from 13-14 plat. On Freeport, page 5 prices are around 16 plat.So, even though AB has nominally more Master spells level 81-90, their prices trend lower. This means Freeport Masters are higher in price even though Freeport has research reducers.Perhaps the higher prices on Freeport are due to greater demand (more players getting to top tier because of it being a younger server) but I'm not sure that factor would balance out any impact of research reducers.In short, it appears research reducers have little if any affect on the prices of Master spells level 81-90.</blockquote>What about manas? Low master prices should result in far more distilled manas on AB as players see the value of a master drop below a mana they might be willing to transmute the master. Even then this wouldn't be 100% accurate as there isn't really a way to account for guilds that might have hundreds of distilled manas in their guild bank.Anyway I suspect there will be higher prices for mana on FP and higher volume of mana on AB.

Ragnaphore

11-17-2011, 10:41 PM

Master's prices and how they would change or not shouldn't even matter in this discussion.It's "Pay for Power" plain and simple and we were told just 1 week ago that wouldn't happen at least until some "large in-game polling" to see how we (the players not the forum's minority) feel about that.

SiegaPlays

11-17-2011, 10:42 PM

<cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, even though AB has nominally more Master spells level 81-90, their prices trend lower. This means Freeport Masters are higher in price even though Freeport has research reducers.Perhaps the higher prices on Freeport are due to greater demand (more players getting to top tier because of it being a younger server) but I'm not sure that factor would balance out any impact of research reducers.In short, it appears research reducers have little if any affect on the prices of Master spells level 81-90.</blockquote>I can only talk from personal experience. I am reasearching the last master on my lvl 90 templar.For lvl 81 - 90 I have researched about 7 spells, bought about 5-6 7day reducers and bought the rest on the broker, when someone had one up for a price I could pay (25-40p tops per master spell). I never saw a single lvl 90 templar spell drop.My templar is my main toon and main healer in my small guild. Some of the 81-90 tended to be well beyond 100p, and I never was any good at making p unless I ran around for hours farming rare shinies, so buying the reducers seemed more expedient, when we started talking about moving forward from easier to harder in the group dungeons.I would not dream of spending real money on my alternate toons research -- unless I win the lottery -- and unless they suddenly took an important role in the guild and needed to get master asap. So instead I keep an eye out for good deals on the broker and have a stash of karborite and ulteran diamond to make experts if masters is not available in time for them hitting 81. My lvl 90 wizard is currently halfnhalf expert/master.BTW I am station pass, so I am not using unlockers, and all in all, I do not consider myself much different from a live server player, most of us aren't :pWether other Freeporters work harder og not at all on masters I do not know.

SiegaPlays

11-17-2011, 10:50 PM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about manas? Low master prices should result in far more distilled manas on AB as players see the value of a master drop below a mana they might be willing to transmute the master. Even then this wouldn't be 100% accurate as there isn't really a way to account for guilds that might have hundreds of distilled manas in their guild bank.Anyway I suspect there will be higher prices for mana on FP and higher volume of mana on AB.</blockquote>3 pages of distilled mana on Freeport right this moment.Two first pages ranges from 30-48p, the last page goes from 48p to 120p.

Golbezz

11-17-2011, 10:51 PM

<cite>Ragnaphore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Master's prices and how they would change or not shouldn't even matter in this discussion.It's "Pay for Power" plain and simple and we were told just 1 week ago that wouldn't happen at least until some "large in-game polling" to see how we (the players not the forum's minority) feel about that.</blockquote>I totally agree. All of the power items need to go.Master prices are just a part of the game that could be changed as well as the transmuted components resulting from low priced masters. Other damage will result from power items but in the end the worst damage will be the loss of the players who made EQ and EQ2 a success leaving the game due to the cash shop "pay-to-win" direction of the game. Many have been leaving over the years each time SOE really messes something up but the number of those players still here is pretty high.... for now at least.

millie

11-17-2011, 11:32 PM

<cite>Disgusting@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bringing the research reducers to the live servers is a terrible idea, and a perfect way to ruin the live severs economy.I hope this decision that "everyone" thinks is fine and dandy gets revoked.This game is really starting to disappoint me.</blockquote>This does not "ruin the live servers economy".As stated above a Master through "research reducers" at the current exchange rate of plat to station cash is about 122plat.Average price of Masters on AB broker today around 35 plat for CA/Spells in the 81-90 range. What it does do is put an effective ceiling on the price of masters of around 125 plat. If you think it is OK to charge more than that for a Master then I think you are price gouging.Yes some people long on cash and short on time will pay Station Cash for masters instead of swapping "Station Cards" for plat. That possibly may lead indirectly to a drop in the price of SLR!!!! items, but is that a legitimate part of the game economy??The sky is not falling, the world will not end because of this. Free to Play has been coming to this game for two years now. It has finally arrived.

millie

11-17-2011, 11:35 PM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ragnaphore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Master's prices and how they would change or not shouldn't even matter in this discussion.It's "Pay for Power" plain and simple and we were told just 1 week ago that wouldn't happen at least until some "large in-game polling" to see how we (the players not the forum's minority) feel about that.</blockquote>I totally agree. All of the power items need to go.Master prices are just a part of the game that could be changed as well as the transmuted components resulting from low priced masters. Other damage will result from power items but in the end the worst damage will be the loss of the players who made EQ and EQ2 a success leaving the game due to the cash shop "pay-to-win" direction of the game. Many have been leaving over the years each time SOE really messes something up but the number of those players still here is pretty high.... for now at least.</blockquote>pay-to-win has been her for a long time, SOE didnt introduce it the player base did with SLR!!! and selling plat on the sly. The 'pure game' disappeared so long ago I cant event put a date on it.

Onorem

11-17-2011, 11:46 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ragnaphore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Master's prices and how they would change or not shouldn't even matter in this discussion.It's "Pay for Power" plain and simple and we were told just 1 week ago that wouldn't happen at least until some "large in-game polling" to see how we (the players not the forum's minority) feel about that.</blockquote>I totally agree. All of the power items need to go.Master prices are just a part of the game that could be changed as well as the transmuted components resulting from low priced masters. Other damage will result from power items but in the end the worst damage will be the loss of the players who made EQ and EQ2 a success leaving the game due to the cash shop "pay-to-win" direction of the game. Many have been leaving over the years each time SOE really messes something up but the number of those players still here is pretty high.... for now at least.</blockquote>pay-to-win has been her for a long time, SOE didnt introduce it the player base did with SLR!!! and selling plat on the sly. The 'pure game' disappeared so long ago I cant event put a date on it.</blockquote>If the plat is obtained without buying it for cash, SLR has nothing to do with pay-to-win. Plat obtained through EULA breaking means shouldn't be considered in the discussion.Masters are worth what they are worth. There is no indefinite limit on supply. The market can be cornered for short terms situationally, but pretending that the reducers are anything but buying in-game progress with real money is silly.

Geothe

11-18-2011, 12:09 AM

<cite>SibsLynx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It really calls into question the integrity and honesty of someone when you constantly have to question their word. This game has taken a bad turn from the direction that the community loved, when developers acctually took into account players opinions. </blockquote>Questionable Intergrity. Very well put.

Ilovecows

11-18-2011, 12:28 AM

I don't see keeping the research things on the marketplace as a big deal. Already atleast 50% of masters will be cheaper than they will be by purchasing the 600sc.

thesiren

11-18-2011, 12:35 AM

<cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see keeping the research things on the marketplace as a big deal. Already atleast 50% of masters will be cheaper than they will be by purchasing the 600sc.</blockquote>Quite frankly, I don't think it's a bad thing at all if the very presence of research reducers at a fixed price anchors master spells at lower prices. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> I suspect some of the whiners want free reign to continue to gouge everybody and they can already see that in the future they won't have it.

Onorem

11-18-2011, 12:37 AM

Geothe

11-18-2011, 12:41 AM

<cite>thesiren wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see keeping the research things on the marketplace as a big deal. Already atleast 50% of masters will be cheaper than they will be by purchasing the 600sc.</blockquote>Quite frankly, I don't think it's a bad thing at all if the very presence of research reducers at a fixed price anchors master spells at lower prices. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> I suspect some of the whiners want free reign to continue to gouge everybody and they can already see that in the future they won't have it.</blockquote>If you think master prices are the heart of the reason for the anger about this issue.... then wow, you truely have no clue what so ever.I dont care if the things cost 5000 SC each. It STILL allows a direct way to just pay cash to advance your character. And thats BS on live servers.

Ilovecows

11-18-2011, 12:41 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see keeping the research things on the marketplace as a big deal. Already atleast 50% of masters will be cheaper than they will be by purchasing the 600sc.</blockquote>I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean. Half the masters are cheaper than spending real money?</blockquote>You can buy sc using in game plat i mean. 600sc = 60p. atleast 50% of masters are below 60p.Edit: I just looked through the Nagafen masters, and there are 170 pages of master 81-90. The first page that a master is above 60 plat is page 119. And probably most of the ones more expensive than that are just repeats that will doubtfully sell anytime soon.

Onorem

11-18-2011, 12:48 AM

agentsix

11-18-2011, 12:51 AM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont care if the things cost 5000 SC each. It STILL allows a direct way to just pay cash to advance your character. And thats BS on live servers.</blockquote>I just want to say that what you say is an opinion. Some people might be fine with the idea of paying cash to advance a character. Some people obviously aren't.For some, it doesn't matter if they spend 8 hours at their job and use that money to buy an in game item rather than spending 8 hours in game grinding for that item.Some people think the only 'pure' way to play is to earn everything within the game world.Different opinions.Ultimately SoE has to decide how their game will succeed. I suspect they have a lot of data that tells them selling a little bit of an advantage for dollars will not cause most people to quit and their profits will increase.I hope they're right.

agentsix

11-18-2011, 12:52 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the command to open the window for me to trade plat for SC?</blockquote>/1 WTB SC for Plat. Pst.

Onorem

11-18-2011, 01:00 AM

<cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the command to open the window for me to trade plat for SC?</blockquote>/1 WTB SC for Plat. Pst.</blockquote>That didn't work. That only made me say something stupid in some random chat channel.

agentsix

11-18-2011, 01:08 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the command to open the window for me to trade plat for SC?</blockquote>/1 WTB SC for Plat. Pst.</blockquote>That didn't work. That only made me say something stupid in some random chat channel.</blockquote>You gotta be in the Burned Woods.

Gaealiege

11-18-2011, 01:09 AM

Yeah, the problem is we were told by old Smed that we would never have any portion, regardless of the form, of pay to win.Slipping in this research time is just another inch that foot slides in the door to selling gear on the marketplace. I know there's a large portion of people that are fine supporting a company that lies to them. Here in EQ2 the average high end raider is not part of said people. I'd rather stop paying SOE entirely and stop playing this game than I would continue my loyal support, since 1999, of this non-truth supplying company.

Onorem

11-18-2011, 01:12 AM

agentsix

11-18-2011, 01:16 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the command to open the window for me to trade plat for SC?</blockquote>/1 WTB SC for Plat. Pst.</blockquote>That didn't work. That only made me say something stupid in some random chat channel.</blockquote>You gotta be in the Burned Woods. </blockquote>I was headed that way, but found out later that it had moved. Waste of time.</blockquote>You should of asked for a SOW. You would have saved time.

Onorem

11-18-2011, 01:22 AM

<cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shouter@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's the command to open the window for me to trade plat for SC?</blockquote>/1 WTB SC for Plat. Pst.</blockquote>That didn't work. That only made me say something stupid in some random chat channel.</blockquote>You gotta be in the Burned Woods. </blockquote>I was headed that way, but found out later that it had moved. Waste of time.</blockquote>You should of asked for a SOW. You would have saved time. </blockquote>That would have helped but the stupid necro was only SOWing people that gave him SC so he could buy advantage.

Minzi

11-18-2011, 02:27 AM

<cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see keeping the research things on the marketplace as a big deal. Already atleast 50% of masters will be cheaper than they will be by purchasing the 600sc.</blockquote>I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean. Half the masters are cheaper than spending real money?</blockquote>You can buy sc using in game plat i mean. 600sc = 60p. atleast 50% of masters are below 60p.Edit: I just looked through the Nagafen masters, and there are 170 pages of master 81-90. The first page that a master is above 60 plat is page 119. And probably most of the ones more expensive than that are just repeats that will doubtfully sell anytime soon.</blockquote>The exchange rate on AB is roughly one time card from walmart ($15) = 300-350pp. So research reducers REALLY aren't a good deal except for classes whose masters are especially pricey, like inquisitor or shadowknight.

Ilovecows

11-18-2011, 02:49 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, the problem is we were told by old Smed that we would never have any portion, regardless of the form, of pay to win.Slipping in this research time is just another inch that foot slides in the door to selling gear on the marketplace. I know there's a large portion of people that are fine supporting a company that lies to them. Here in EQ2 the average high end raider is not part of said people. I'd rather stop paying SOE entirely and stop playing this game than I would continue my loyal support, since 1999, of this non-truth supplying company.</blockquote>I'd rather a company make decisions on what is best for the survival of the game than keeping a pointless promise they made a long time ago.

Ilovecows

11-18-2011, 03:32 AM

<cite>Minzi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see keeping the research things on the marketplace as a big deal. Already atleast 50% of masters will be cheaper than they will be by purchasing the 600sc.</blockquote>I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean. Half the masters are cheaper than spending real money?</blockquote>You can buy sc using in game plat i mean. 600sc = 60p. atleast 50% of masters are below 60p.Edit: I just looked through the Nagafen masters, and there are 170 pages of master 81-90. The first page that a master is above 60 plat is page 119. And probably most of the ones more expensive than that are just repeats that will doubtfully sell anytime soon.</blockquote>The exchange rate on AB is roughly one time card from walmart ($15) = 300-350pp. So research reducers REALLY aren't a good deal except for classes whose masters are especially pricey, like inquisitor or shadowknight.</blockquote>hmm SC is twice as expensive as here.But my point with my comment for those who don't understand is that i can buy 600sc, sell it for 60p, and get more masters than i would have gotten from the research things. They really are only useful for that one master you can't find on the broker or it is 2000000000000000000000000000000000000 plat

Besual

11-18-2011, 05:14 AM

If you claim research reducer is pay-to-win and should never be seen on the live servers then you should be up in arms and demanding that the XP pots / vitaly pots get removed from the live servers. They are the same thing for level / AA as the research reducer is for spells / CA.I'm not happy with either (research reducer nor XP / vitaly pots) but can live with them. I just pretend people buying this stuff could just spend more time playing EQ2 to get the same result.And I bet lot of people are angry now will buy this stuff to PL their beastlord.

Mermut

11-18-2011, 05:27 AM

I'm not particually moved, one way or the other, about the research pots, but there is a slight fallacy with the agrument about 'I don't play as often, so I need the ressearch pots to make up for it...' Research time is based on real time, not play time. The spell is researched in x real time hours, so if you can only play 1 hr a week, your researching spell will be finished just as soon as the person who plays 40+ hours a week.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 05:45 AM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote>pay-to-win has been her for a long time, SOE didnt introduce it the player base did with SLR!!! and selling plat on the sly. The 'pure game' disappeared so long ago I cant event put a date on it.</blockquote>There is a huge difference that players could report others who bought plat. Many did and they were banned or in some cases just had the plat removed.Now SOE is becoming more directly involved in the pay-to-win leaving players who are against it no real option other than fighting anything that is pay-to-win that SOE introduces. Don't even get me started on the gray area plat trade called SC.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 05:51 AM

<cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd rather a company make decisions on what is best for the survival of the game than keeping a pointless promise they made a long time ago.</blockquote>Yeah, brilliant move, lets upset all our customers who made the game successful in the past.It sure is going to look good when the number of paying accounts drops fast over the next few months due to a combination of the expansion price and the F2P pay-to-win changes.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 05:54 AM

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you claim research reducer is pay-to-win and should never be seen on the live servers then you should be up in arms and demanding that the XP pots / vitaly pots get removed from the live servers. They are the same thing for level / AA as the research reducer is for spells / CA.I'm not happy with either (research reducer nor XP / vitaly pots) but can live with them. I just pretend people buying this stuff could just spend more time playing EQ2 to get the same result.And I bet lot of people are angry now will buy this stuff to PL their beastlord.</blockquote>These potions really should be removed and they never should have been added in the first place. These are part of the reason players complain they can never find groups in the lower level ranges.

Ginfress02

11-18-2011, 05:58 AM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd rather a company make decisions on what is best for the survival of the game than keeping a pointless promise they made a long time ago.</blockquote>Yeah, brilliant move, lets upset all our customers who made the game successful in the past.It sure is going to look good when the number of paying accounts drops fast over the next few months due to a combination of the expansion price and the F2P pay-to-win changes.</blockquote>That's a calculated risk and maybe losing the disgruntled vets isnt that bad for the community that still likes the game.

Ginfress02

11-18-2011, 06:02 AM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you claim research reducer is pay-to-win and should never be seen on the live servers then you should be up in arms and demanding that the XP pots / vitaly pots get removed from the live servers. They are the same thing for level / AA as the research reducer is for spells / CA.I'm not happy with either (research reducer nor XP / vitaly pots) but can live with them. I just pretend people buying this stuff could just spend more time playing EQ2 to get the same result.And I bet lot of people are angry now will buy this stuff to PL their beastlord.</blockquote>These potions really should be removed and they never should have been added in the first place. These are part of the reason players complain they can never find groups in the lower level ranges.</blockquote>To many people buy the stuff hence they are on the SC shop. I use the vitality potions mostly since i hate having to wait to get it back to 100%. XP pots are great on double xp weekends, i can't be bothered by the lower level stuff i have cleared already many times. And with going FTP the community in the lower ranks will nicely fill up so there will be enough people to group with at the lower levels.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 06:08 AM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a calculated risk and maybe losing the disgruntled vets isnt that bad for the community that still likes the game.</blockquote>Losing a large number of longtime paying players while some new players that may not ever pay is really a stupid move on SOE's part.Once the "new game" effect wears off the new players they will be gone fast.Then what happens?More server merges and even less content?

Ginfress02

11-18-2011, 06:14 AM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's a calculated risk and maybe losing the disgruntled vets isnt that bad for the community that still likes the game.</blockquote>Losing a large number of longtime paying players while some new players that may not ever pay is really a stupid move on SOE's part.Once the "new game" effect wears off the new players they will be gone fast.Then what happens?More server merges and even less content?</blockquote>Just make it one server just like EVE does. And what do you mean with less content? The amount of content this game has (expecially for new people) will keep people playing for a long time. I get it, you don't like the new direction SoE is taken and there is nothing wrong with that. But this game is far from dying anytime soon.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 06:26 AM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>To many people buy the stuff hence they are on the SC shop. I use the vitality potions mostly since i hate having to wait to get it back to 100%. XP pots are great on double xp weekends, i can't be bothered by the lower level stuff i have cleared already many times. And with going FTP the community in the lower ranks will nicely fill up so there will be enough people to group with at the lower levels.</blockquote>You have made a perfect example why many longtime players are against these items. When enough players use them they become almost required just to keep up.Sure it's easy enough to level without these items but it's going to take far longer which again is a perfect example of the negative effects caused by pay to win items forcing in this example a leveling player to choose between "paying-to-win" for fast leveling or getting left behind.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 06:36 AM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just make it one server just like EVE does. And what do you mean with less content? The amount of content this game has (expecially for new people) will keep people playing for a long time. I get it, you don't like the new direction SoE is taken and there is nothing wrong with that. But this game is far from dying anytime soon.</blockquote>That depends on what your definition of a dead game is.I'm a raider so old content means nothing to me, I've done it many times with mains and alts. My comment about less content is really just making the connection of longtime players leaving which means less income generation causing a reduction in new content which of course can cause the top end players to get bored and leave which continues to make the problem worse as more leave and the income from players continues to drop.Then consider the way casuals have complained about content difficulty in the past. What will happen when there aren't enough top end raiders selling raid loot for those casuals to do heroic zones?This game will be dead soon if SOE makes the mistake of losing their longtime players (think of what happened with SWG and the NGE). However the SC cash shop will probably remain and EQ2 will be nothing more than that.F2P change is EQ2's NGE. It's unfortunate more players don't see this and someday they will wonder what happened to the EQ2 that used to be fun that wasn't about buying new items from the marketplace.

Ginfress02

11-18-2011, 06:42 AM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>To many people buy the stuff hence they are on the SC shop. I use the vitality potions mostly since i hate having to wait to get it back to 100%. XP pots are great on double xp weekends, i can't be bothered by the lower level stuff i have cleared already many times. And with going FTP the community in the lower ranks will nicely fill up so there will be enough people to group with at the lower levels.</blockquote>You have made a perfect example why many longtime players are against these items. When enough players use them they become almost required just to keep up.Sure it's easy enough to level without these items but it's going to take far longer which again is a perfect example of the negative effects caused by pay to win items forcing in this example a leveling player to choose between "paying-to-win" for fast leveling or getting left behind.</blockquote>Getting left behind in a game that is top heavy? There isnt any fabled amor or weapons in the shop (which both are needed for the highest dungeons, getting those for SC would be pay to win). If people on the current live servers wouldnt buy them they wouldnt be in the shop so i dare to say that a large amount of the current live-server community actually approve of the shop. Don't like it, fine but apparently a lot of others playing on live think different <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" />

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 06:48 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5660258" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5660258</a> Removed for trolling

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 06:56 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5660260" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5660260</a> Removed for trolling

Ginfress02

11-18-2011, 06:58 AM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just make it one server just like EVE does. And what do you mean with less content? The amount of content this game has (expecially for new people) will keep people playing for a long time. I get it, you don't like the new direction SoE is taken and there is nothing wrong with that. But this game is far from dying anytime soon.</blockquote>I'm a raider so old content means nothing to me, I've done it many times with mains and alts. My comment about less content is really just making the connection of longtime players leaving which means less income generation causing a reduction in new content which of course can cause the top end players to get bored and leave which continues to make the problem worse as more leave and the income from players continues to drop.Then consider the way casuals have complained about content difficulty in the past. What will happen when there aren't enough top end raiders selling raid loot for those casuals to do heroic zones?This game will be dead soon if SOE makes the mistake of losing their longtime players (think of what happened with SWG and the NGE). However the SC cash shop will probably remain and EQ2 will be nothing more than that.F2P change is EQ2's NGE. It's unfortunate more players don't see this and someday they will wonder what happened to the EQ2 that used to be fun that wasn't about buying new items from the marketplace.</blockquote>- Since i now know you are a raider i think content wise you are right.- If the difficulty is to high it will be tuned down and others will replace the current top tier players and sell the stuff. Btw a casual player isnt equal to a player who wants stuff to be nerfed but thats a whole different discussion.- based on what fact you can state that the game will be dead soon? You have the actual figures of income SoE makes on eq2?- We will see what happens. If the game closes down one day (which happens anyway for every game) i have had my fun with it. Nothing more nothing less.- The current game isnt about buying new stuff from the station store, you're just negative about it because you don't like the shop which is ok. But it wont kill the game, it will add to the revenue Soe makes of the game.

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 07:01 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5660262" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5660262</a> Removed for trolling

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 07:03 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5660264" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5660264</a> Removed for trolling

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 07:05 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5660266" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5660266</a> Removed for trolling

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 09:27 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500111&post_id=5660292" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50011...post_id=5660292</a> Removed for trolling

SOE-MOD-04

11-18-2011, 10:43 AM

Lets get back on topic and stay away from the bickering and trolling guys.

SOE-MOD-08

11-18-2011, 11:02 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500098&post_id=5660349" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50009...post_id=5660349</a> Trolling

Rijacki

11-18-2011, 01:03 PM

Just to inject reality, this screenshot was taken this morning from my 2nd account which doesn't have All Access (EQ2 only):<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/EQ2X/research.png" width="806" height="514" />I'm not sure where the "600SC" figure comes from unless they get more expensive as your character levels up. The character I used was created solely to get the screenshots of the Marketplace pages.I also could not examine the item to get the item's description in order to see if it could be used one right after another for an instant Master or if only one per research can be used. (I don't know if the freebies are one per either.)"Everyone" in Smokejumper's post probably referred to everyone in the meeting he was in. But I agree, he should have clarified.

Lempo

11-18-2011, 01:19 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to inject reality, this screenshot was taken this morning from my 2nd account which doesn't have All Access (EQ2 only):I'm not sure where the "600SC" figure comes from unless they get more expensive as your character levels up. The character I used was created solely to get the screenshots of the Marketplace pages.I also could not examine the item to get the item's description in order to see if it could be used one right after another for an instant Master or if only one per research can be used. (I don't know if the freebies are one per either.)"Everyone" in Smokejumper's post probably referred to everyone in the meeting he was in. But I agree, he should have clarified.</blockquote>The 600 figure was purchasing 4 of the 150's for an instant master.They can be used back to back, you can purchase as many of them as you want and instantly master out a toon.SJ didn't need to clarify what he meant by "Everyone" there is none, will be none and there is not an intent to have any input from the player base on this.He clearly stated that NO POWER ITEMS would remain after the conversion, but the people that determine what items fall into this category are the "Everyone" that he cited saying that the research reducers were ok. After F2P goes live they will hold another meeting and determine that the insta kill wand (which is far less damaging to the game integrity/economy than these) doesn't really matter that much, and it will be added. Then the full health restore, then the full power restore, then the self rez scrolls, one by one, spaced just far enough apart they will all come back and more.

Raknid

11-18-2011, 01:51 PM

Some of you probably wont read this, but if you do I think it will be worth your time.You know, I had this little "to myself" rant going in my head last night right before I went to sleep, and you may have to bear with me here for a minute to see how it pertains, but it started out with a mashing together of the state of the game and what has been called the mischaracterization of a phrase, that phrase being "gotten lazy."Let's start from the beginning shall we, and I mean the beginning...of each of us. What is probably one of the first games you learn to play? Tic-Tac-Toe. Where are competing to beat you mom or dad or whoever; a competitive game with a winner and a loser. Then as you grow up you play hide and go seek, a competitive game with winners and a loser, or checkers, a competitive game with a winner and a loser, or Monopoly, etc... You get the idea. Games are competitive by their very nature.From our earliest existence we are "taught" to compete, and more importantly, we learn that winning is valued, and concomitantly that losing is a reason to strive. Losing gives us the drive to get better.I include "taught" in quotes for the simple reason that our parents, brothers/sisters, friends, coaches, etc... are simply reinforcing an innate behavior. To "compete" means to live; to acquiesce means death...well...on a fundamental level of course. The desire to compete is "hard wired" into us, but like most things we may innately possess, can either be reinforced or relegated. One can think of it like a "gift" to some degree. Some may be born with a gift for music, or a gift for math, etc..., but unless that gift is nurtured it will go to waste. Imagine if that gift was even discouraged? What do you think the end result would be for two equally "gifted" children, one whose gift was ignored (not nurtured), and one whose gift was actively discouraged? At the end of a set period of time, using any measure one wants, who would be considered the more gifted? The child with no reinforcement, or the child with negative reinforcement?Let's hang onto to the "gift for..." theme for a second, for people may make the assertion that competitiveness is not as ubiquitous as I may portray. What about a student learning piano? Are they competing? No? Au contraire, they are competing, if only with themselves. The current self is fighting it out with yesterday's self to see who is better at that concerto. Or with math, the current self is solving that problem that yesterday's self couldn't do.Anywhere there is drive there is competition. There is a winner and a loser. Sally beat Johnny at chess. Today's Bill bested yesterdays' Bill at that concerto. Or, on a more fundamental level, one beats another for a "resource," be that food, adoration, pride in oneself, etc... which ultimately leaves the person in a better state of well being. Excluding pathologic manifestations, the drive to compete, both applied to an individual activity and to activities in general, results in a increased likelihood of better well being.Understandably, people want to migrate from a state of lesser well being to a state of higher well being. Some people will work steadfastly to compete and move up, but, people being people, many will take the easiest route, just as a ill-construed pedestrian sidewalk will result in dirt path from point a to point b. Why compete, or muster the drive, when a better state of well being can be had for nothing. Why compete when the effort required is disproportional to the meager benefit? Why compete if you feel that simply being a member of some status (rich, or good looking, or American, etc...) will convey a better state of well being?So, we have discussed how competition is an innate behavior, and how it can be nuttured, ignored, or even discouraged. How competition is a manifestation of drive, and results in "winning" some "resource" that leads to a better state of well being, and how this drive is affected by the feedback of the environment.Do you see where we are going?It is only natural that in a society which deemphasizes winners and losers, a society which provides an easy path from point A to B, a society where cause is disproportionate to effect, that we see a tendency to move towards a "pay to win" mentality in "games."We, as a society not as individuals, have "gotten lazy." We have literally gotten fat, so I guess the phrase "fat and lazy" would more aptly apply. Really, to make this point one has to look no farther than two things...our waistlines and our academic standing in the world. Two of the easiest things for an individual to control and we as a society are scoring more poorly year after year when compared to the rest of the world.Probably a coincidence, but it strikes me that "hardcore" MMOs were so popular in Asia. This being at the tail end of the rise of some countries, say South Korea, Taiwan, etc..., and the emergence of others, such as China. Japan has always been competitive...they take arcade game competition to a whole new level...lol.You get the idea, and the idea is that gaming attitudes can be seen as somewhat of a mirror regarding societal attitudes toward competition.In that regard, while we are rightfully upset that "our" game is moving in the direction it is, we should really be more deeply disturbed by what the "pay to win" attitude may signify for our greater society.As an aside...I will be very afraid if I ever see a hardcore MMO take off in India...lol.

Finora

11-18-2011, 02:10 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to inject reality, this screenshot was taken this morning from my 2nd account which doesn't have All Access (EQ2 only):I'm not sure where the "600SC" figure comes from unless they get more expensive as your character levels up. The character I used was created solely to get the screenshots of the Marketplace pages.I also could not examine the item to get the item's description in order to see if it could be used one right after another for an instant Master or if only one per research can be used. (I don't know if the freebies are one per either.)"Everyone" in Smokejumper's post probably referred to everyone in the meeting he was in. But I agree, he should have clarified.</blockquote>The 600 figure was purchasing 4 of the 150's for an instant master.They can be used back to back, you can purchase as many of them as you want and instantly master out a toon.SJ didn't need to clarify what he meant by "Everyone" there is none, will be none and there is not an intent to have any input from the player base on this.He clearly stated that NO POWER ITEMS would remain after the conversion, but the people that determine what items fall into this category are the "Everyone" that he cited saying that the research reducers were ok. After F2P goes live they will hold another meeting and determine that the insta kill wand (which is far less damaging to the game integrity/economy than these) doesn't really matter that much, and it will be added. Then the full health restore, then the full power restore, then the self rez scrolls, one by one, spaced just far enough apart they will all come back and more.</blockquote>I don't typically agree with most of what Lempo says, but in this particular case, he's 100% correct.While I reallize it's not going to make much difference in the end, I feel selling research reducers is a BAD idea. Particularly since I found out today that they can be stacked on one spell and you can get them instantly, completely bypassing the wait. Might as well sell masters on the marketplace for 600 SC at that point.Masters aren't 'hard' to get if you get them by researcher but time investment is required. Getting them the old fashioned way can still be a pain in the rear and can be very pricey if you choose to purchase them via plat.Selling the research reducers for such a small amount (150 for the 7day reducers) and allowing them to stack with each other so that you can completely bypass all the time it normally takes to research is equivalent to putting fabled armor on SC. It very directly impacts the gameplay of those who choose to spend real money and immediately makes them more powerful than those who do not choose to spend real money. This is exactly the thing that Live players have been railing against from the beginning.It directly impacts sages/alchemists/jewelers viablity as classes (people bought experts so they could research masters faster). It goes beyond 'convience'. Why remove all the other things if you are going to leave a so blatent bypass of game mechanics in?

Elskidor

11-18-2011, 02:14 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>He clearly stated that NO POWER ITEMS would remain after the conversion, but the people that determine what items fall into this category are the "Everyone" that he cited saying that the research reducers were ok. After F2P goes live they will hold another meeting and determine that the insta kill wand (which is far less damaging to the game integrity/economy than these) doesn't really matter that much, and it will be added. Then the full health restore, then the full power restore, then the self rez scrolls, one by one, spaced just far enough apart they will all come back and more.</blockquote>I was going to say something like this but it seems to be covered. Let one thing slide and it will lead to another and another and another. We all knew this with the market place first opened, but it's been so gradual few seem to care. It'll be interesting to see what customers will be able to buy via SC in a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if one day AAs, or maybe even raid gear will be offered.

Lempo

11-18-2011, 02:22 PM

<cite>Elzeenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was going to say something like this but it seems to be covered. Let one thing slide and it will lead to another and another and another. We all knew this with the market place first opened, but it's been so gradual few seem to care. It'll be interesting to see what customers will be able to buy via SC in a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if one day AAs, or maybe even raid gear will be offered.</blockquote>AA exp pots like the ones in the PQ will be available soon as well, and gear between Thurg and Ry'Gorr quality will be on there too. People that do not understand the slippery slope that this is leading the game down just shrug it off, at some point some will break others will just accept whatever. The players will not be asked or consulted on this though, because "Everyone" does not include players it only involved the people that were at the meeting where SJ said..."Wow I tried to sneak those arrows in but I don't think they are gonna have that (yet), but I don't think it takes any effort to get a master so we will just FORCE that upon them despite saying we would remove such items and see how that cookie crumbles." Everyone at the meeting concurred that it would generate a lot of SC sales and that it didn't matter anyway so they ranwith it.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 03:25 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>AA exp pots like the ones in the PQ will be available soon as well, and gear between Thurg and Ry'Gorr quality will be on there too. People that do not understand the slippery slope that this is leading the game down just shrug it off, at some point some will break others will just accept whatever. The players will not be asked or consulted on this though, because "Everyone" does not include players it only involved the people that were at the meeting where SJ said..."Wow I tried to sneak those arrows in but I don't think they are gonna have that (yet), but I don't think it takes any effort to get a master so we will just FORCE that upon them despite saying we would remove such items and see how that cookie crumbles." Everyone at the meeting concurred that it would generate a lot of SC sales and that it didn't matter anyway so they ranwith it.</blockquote>The right thing for SOE to do would be removing all power items at the time of the subscription system change next month. Then put that poll up SJ, let players decide on *ALL* these power items in a poll with the choices for each item type question. Give players 2 choices for each item type such as this:Should research reducer items be available for SC on the marketplace? Choose 1 of the following:[ ] Yes, make these items available for purchase.[ ] No, do not make these items available for purchaseI suspect more players on FP are going to vote in favor of returning the power items while the reaction from the live servers will be strongly against pay-to-win items. The players need to be asked these questions to find out what they really want which I suspect will turn out to be no power items while not minding things like appearance gear.

Golbezz

11-18-2011, 03:39 PM

<cite>Elzeenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was going to say something like this but it seems to be covered. Let one thing slide and it will lead to another and another and another. We all knew this with the market place first opened, but it's been so gradual few seem to care. It'll be interesting to see what customers will be able to buy via SC in a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if one day AAs, or maybe even raid gear will be offered.</blockquote>It would surprise me if anyone was still playing if the game went that far down the pay-to-win path. Here's why: The high end players would leave once raid gear was offered for SC. The casuals would be forced to buy SC gear to keep up with any players who did buy it and would decide it's just too expensive or not fun anymore since there would be no reason to play the game when they could just buy everything. The crafters would get bored because everything they could make ended up with a better SC version.Then finally the cash shop pay-to-win players would get bored with no one around when they tried to show off their purchased raid gear or whatever. Their "I want it now" lack of patience would cause them to finally lose interest and move on to another F2P game. At the end of it the roleplayers would be left and probably not be a large enough group to keep the game running at a profit.In terms of future game development this expensive mistake NEEDS to happen though I hope it happens in some other games rather than EQ2. Developers need to get back to making games that attract a large group of players because of the high game quality and fun gameplay. Making up for shortfalls in those areas with a cash shop will not prove successful long term as players tire of the item shop systems and look for something that is actually fun to play.

agentsix

11-18-2011, 04:16 PM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elzeenor@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was going to say something like this but it seems to be covered. Let one thing slide and it will lead to another and another and another. We all knew this with the market place first opened, but it's been so gradual few seem to care. It'll be interesting to see what customers will be able to buy via SC in a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if one day AAs, or maybe even raid gear will be offered.</blockquote>It would surprise me if anyone was still playing if the game went that far down the pay-to-win path. Here's why: The high end players would leave once raid gear was offered for SC. The casuals would be forced to buy SC gear to keep up with any players who did buy it and would decide it's just too expensive or not fun anymore since there would be no reason to play the game when they could just buy everything. The crafters would get bored because everything they could make ended up with a better SC version.Then finally the cash shop pay-to-win players would get bored with no one around when they tried to show off their purchased raid gear or whatever. Their "I want it now" lack of patience would cause them to finally lose interest and move on to another F2P game. At the end of it the roleplayers would be left and probably not be a large enough group to keep the game running at a profit.In terms of future game development this expensive mistake NEEDS to happen though I hope it happens in some other games rather than EQ2. Developers need to get back to making games that attract a large group of players because of the high game quality and fun gameplay. Making up for shortfalls in those areas with a cash shop will not prove successful long term as players tire of the item shop systems and look for something that is actually fun to play.</blockquote><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope</a>

Raknid

11-18-2011, 04:18 PM

^^^^^Which might be relevant were it not for us being halfway down the slide since LoN.

Lempo

11-18-2011, 05:23 PM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote>The right thing for SOE to do would be removing all power items at the time of the subscription system change next month. Then put that poll up SJ, let players decide on *ALL* these power items in a poll with the choices for each item type question. Give players 2 choices for each item type such as this:Should research reducer items be available for SC on the marketplace? Choose 1 of the following:[ ] Yes, make these items available for purchase.[ ] No, do not make these items available for purchaseI suspect more players on FP are going to vote in favor of returning the power items while the reaction from the live servers will be strongly against pay-to-win items. The players need to be asked these questions to find out what they really want which I suspect will turn out to be no power items while not minding things like appearance gear.</blockquote>SOE is trying to poise as the good guys here saying they are going to let the players decide, but before the players get a chance to decide "Everyone" (which is SJ and whoever was present when they discussed these pots) has to agree that thie item needs to be decided on by the player base. Making that statement and then doing this with the XP pots shows the level of contempt they have for the player base as a whole, and at this point quite frankly I would not believe what they said were the results of the polls anyway.The way you posed the question will not be the way it is presented, it will be a leading question that will be designed with the intent of shifting the answer to be in favor of what will generate the most SC. There is also a problem of human nature, when presented with a list of choices there will be a bias to the first item on the list, be it the top item or the one on the left. This is the way that EQ2X was presented when you go to everquest2.com, Extended was on the left which marketing and SJ also (because he is not a dumb individual) KNEW would by default lead more traffic to that option, and it doesn't take a lot of experience in marketing to know and understand this.One of the ways to take more accurate polls is to randomize the choices, this will not be done for this situation, if they ever take a serious poll about it to begin with, the question will make it look as if you say yes it is good for the game and bad if you say no, the option for pro SC will always be the first choice and there will be more votes of positive support from people who will play the game for a month or so and leave because of the nature of FTP and people trying a new game, their vote will be without an understanding of the game or how its economy really works.

Xianthia

11-18-2011, 05:27 PM

This thread has made me wonder about how many would actually master out a toon completely (average 25-30 masters? guessing at the number and then multiply that by a 4 times the weekly expander) and would those people actually be the ones you are currently playing with (by this I mean the ones you group/adventure with).I just can't see the flood of people that would master out a toon using the research reducers. SC isn't real money, but it does come from real money invested. Using myself as an example I'd think maybe and that's a BIG maybe using it to push one week for a "must have" master. The "must have" of course is subjective to each person. Even then, I'm not even sure I'd do it, but I can see the draw.I understand that the discussion is turning into more of the slippery slope, but to be honest, aren't we past that point and have been for a while? Not to say that we should just shrug our shoulders and move on, just pointing out that we're well on our way of the slippery slope, at least to me.

Lempo

11-18-2011, 05:32 PM

Xianthia, Were not at the bottom of the slope just yet, and while resistance might prolong the ride, complacency will do nothing but accelerate it. From your statement to me it at least sounds like something just doesn't seem right about it, maybe I am wrong but if I am right... Why sell out so easily?

Vinseth

11-18-2011, 06:00 PM

I personally have no problem with these. After checking out and then moving to Freeport I think some are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I still sell masters on the broker on Freeport and for more than I could sell them for on AB. The community at large is much better than either AB or BB. I dont see why people worry about buying items. I laugh every time I hear "pay to win" because last time I checked you can't win this game.As a guild leader looking for new blood I'm all for someone creating a new toon for a class I need and not taking 6 months to get there. I tend to see the people that have the money to buy this stuff tend to be really good players but just like the 8 hr a day play times of others. I also dont see people mastering out all their abilities but only targeted ones. As for the arrows the only people that bought those are the ones that transfered from live and had no plat or were on a raid and didnt want to look stupid being out and asking in raid.How someone got their gear is irrelavent to me as long as they can follow directions and play their toon well I'm good. Trust me time played does not equal good player.SLR is no different (yet happens on all servers) one you buy from players and the other is SOE.

millie

11-18-2011, 06:18 PM

<cite>Vindorek@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally have no problem with these. After checking out and then moving to Freeport I think some are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I still sell masters on the broker on Freeport and for more than I could sell them for on AB. The community at large is much better than either AB or BB. I dont see why people worry about buying items. I laugh every time I hear "pay to win" because last time I checked you can't win this game.As a guild leader looking for new blood I'm all for someone creating a new toon for a class I need and not taking 6 months to get there. I tend to see the people that have the money to buy this stuff tend to be really good players but just like the 8 hr a day play times of others. I also dont see people mastering out all their abilities but only targeted ones. As for the arrows the only people that bought those are the ones that transfered from live and had no plat or were on a raid and didnt want to look stupid being out and asking in raid.How someone got their gear is irrelavent to me as long as they can follow directions and play their toon well I'm good. Trust me time played does not equal good player.SLR is no different (yet happens on all servers) one you buy from players and the other is SOE.</blockquote>+1

Lempo

11-18-2011, 06:26 PM

<cite>Vindorek@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>How someone got their gear is irrelavent to me as long as they can follow directions and play their toon well I'm good. Trust me time played does not equal good player.SLR is no different (yet happens on all servers) one you buy from players and the other is SOE.</blockquote>Having masters or good gear does not equal good player either, but if the player actually gets some play time in along the way the chances of them being a good player are increased.SLR is not only buying from players a large portion of it is from the selling of SC for plat which SOE gets their cut, they might as well be selling the plat. SOE has taken very strong measure against players in the past from bans/warnings/removal of plat for circumventing this, now that they are on the take it is all peachy-keen.You have a guild bank and other members in your guild when they get masters for key classes that you need they should be donating and/or trading those to the guild bank. I understand that many feel the need for instant gratification but that is not what the game was designed for and as a whole it is not healthy for the game and new players.

urgthock

11-18-2011, 07:36 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SLR is not only buying from players a large portion of it is from the selling of SC for plat which SOE gets their cut, they might as well be selling the plat. SOE has taken very strong measure against players in the past from bans/warnings/removal of plat for circumventing this, now that they are on the take it is all peachy-keen.</blockquote>I am not going to say you are wrong about a large portion of the current plat in game coming from selling SC. However, I will simply say that if someone knows what they are doing there are far easier and cheaper (as in zero cost) ways of getting plat.I can make 60-100 plat per day if I really want to. Solo. But god it is boring. I prefer grouping or questing.

Lempo

11-18-2011, 10:14 PM

<cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SLR is not only buying from players a large portion of it is from the selling of SC for plat which SOE gets their cut, they might as well be selling the plat. SOE has taken very strong measure against players in the past from bans/warnings/removal of plat for circumventing this, now that they are on the take it is all peachy-keen.</blockquote>I am not going to say you are wrong about a large portion of the current plat in game coming from selling SC. However, I will simply say that if someone knows what they are doing there are far easier and cheaper (as in zero cost) ways of getting plat.I can make 60-100 plat per day if I really want to. Solo. But god it is boring. I prefer grouping or questing.</blockquote>I do not disagree with this at all, I can make ~250-300 plat per day in about 1.5 hrs simply by running a few toons through a few zones, and yes it is boring, and I prefer grouping myself. That is not what this is about, this is about SJ stating just 4 or 5 days ago that ALL items of this type would be removed and not put back in unless through an in game poll it was determined they were wanted. Then a day or two later, he says that they had a meeting and determined that these items were ok because [whatever], which will become the new standard they will have their meeting and decide the item doesn't matter and it will be there, there will be nothing to vote on, they have no intention of allowing a vote on any type of item, they will be the ones that determines what needs voted on and what doesn't and that will be the end of it. There will be even faster mounts that are placed in the SC shop within 3 months of F2P conversion, probably with stats of some sort (POT/CB/AB.MOD). He has already crawled back under his rock and is not going to come out and touch this subject again, it is faceless, gutless, totally dishonest and a slap in the face to the very community that he told they would remove those items, he scoffs at you, at me and everyone that plays this game if you are not funneling $ into SC items he has nothig but contempt for you.I was on the fence about the conversion at first when these items were said to be coming out, I thought that it might be good for the game, now that I know they had no intention other than just to temporarily remove them and one by one reintroduce them I'm not a big fan of it. I'll continue to subscribe, I'll continue to earn what I equip and scribe until they finish driving the game into ground and finally turning into the barbie doll dream house game that SJ and Smedley have envisioned, when there is nothing left except what you can buy from the SC shop then I'll move on. I've played since 2005, I do not want to stop but when they remove every reason to play the game then I'll move on.

millie

11-18-2011, 10:29 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SLR is not only buying from players a large portion of it is from the selling of SC for plat which SOE gets their cut, they might as well be selling the plat. SOE has taken very strong measure against players in the past from bans/warnings/removal of plat for circumventing this, now that they are on the take it is all peachy-keen.</blockquote>I am not going to say you are wrong about a large portion of the current plat in game coming from selling SC. However, I will simply say that if someone knows what they are doing there are far easier and cheaper (as in zero cost) ways of getting plat.I can make 60-100 plat per day if I really want to. Solo. But god it is boring. I prefer grouping or questing.</blockquote>I do not disagree with this at all, I can make ~250-300 plat per day in about 1.5 hrs simply by running a few toons through a few zones, and yes it is boring, and I prefer grouping myself. That is not what this is about, this is about SJ stating just 4 or 5 days ago that ALL items of this type would be removed and not put back in unless through an in game poll it was determined they were wanted. Then a day or two later, he says that they had a meeting and determined that these items were ok because [whatever], which will become the new standard they will have their meeting and decide the item doesn't matter and it will be there, there will be nothing to vote on, they have no intention of allowing a vote on any type of item, they will be the ones that determines what needs voted on and what doesn't and that will be the end of it. There will be even faster mounts that are placed in the SC shop within 3 months of F2P conversion, probably with stats of some sort (POT/CB/AB.MOD). He has already crawled back under his rock and is not going to come out and touch this subject again, it is faceless, gutless, totally dishonest and a slap in the face to the very community that he told they would remove those items, he scoffs at you, at me and everyone that plays this game if you are not funneling $ into SC items he has nothig but contempt for you.I was on the fence about the conversion at first when these items were said to be coming out, I thought that it might be good for the game, now that I know they had no intention other than just to temporarily remove them and one by one reintroduce them I'm not a big fan of it. I'll continue to subscribe, I'll continue to earn what I equip and scribe until they finish driving the game into ground and finally turning into the barbie doll dream house game that SJ and Smedley have envisioned, when there is nothing left except what you can buy from the SC shop then I'll move on. I've played since 2005, I do not want to stop but when they remove every reason to play the game then I'll move on.</blockquote>I have been ready to move on since May. No need to go into why. I took advantage of the outage to look at some of the other MMO's, particularly Rift, none were what I was looking for.Star Wars leaves me cold, PvP is anathema to me. LoTro looks boring, WoW been there done that. I could go back to EQ1 but that seems a bit silly.So for all its flaws, and despite the trend of the last two years, EQ1 looks like it for me. At least until something I like better comes along, and I see nothing I like on the horizon.

Golbezz

11-19-2011, 01:40 AM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE is trying to poise as the good guys here saying they are going to let the players decide, but before the players get a chance to decide "Everyone" (which is SJ and whoever was present when they discussed these pots) has to agree that thie item needs to be decided on by the player base. Making that statement and then doing this with the XP pots shows the level of contempt they have for the player base as a whole, and at this point quite frankly I would not believe what they said were the results of the polls anyway.</blockquote>I do have a feeling the poll will have questions that lead players to accept what SOE really wants as you suggested. It's unfortunate really because I know the end result will be a pay-to-win game meaning that I finally do cancel and join other guildmates and friends who have already left the game since the F2P announcement was made.EQ2 was a good game before the marketplace, now it is a broken game that is second priority to the SC cash shop and is well on it's way to going full "pay-to-win". All it needs now is a fixed poll to lead players to support the return of power items that would cause increased item sales for $OE. Unfortunately I figure the poll will be fixed in the way of having "Yes" and "don't care" count in favor of power items while only a "no" counts against them.

Golbezz

11-19-2011, 01:46 AM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have been ready to move on since May. No need to go into why. I took advantage of the outage to look at some of the other MMO's, particularly Rift, none were what I was looking for.Star Wars leaves me cold, PvP is anathema to me. LoTro looks boring, WoW been there done that. I could go back to EQ1 but that seems a bit silly.So for all its flaws, and despite the trend of the last two years, EQ1 looks like it for me. At least until something I like better comes along, and I see nothing I like on the horizon.</blockquote>I've actually been thinking about going back to EQ myself since the F2P announcement and the current issues involving the marketplace items but I'm just not sure how long EQ will remain in it's current state before it ends up with the same issues happening here in EQ2.

Ilovecows

11-19-2011, 02:14 AM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just make it one server just like EVE does. And what do you mean with less content? The amount of content this game has (expecially for new people) will keep people playing for a long time. I get it, you don't like the new direction SoE is taken and there is nothing wrong with that. But this game is far from dying anytime soon.</blockquote>That depends on what your definition of a dead game is.I'm a raider so old content means nothing to me, I've done it many times with mains and alts. My comment about less content is really just making the connection of longtime players leaving which means less income generation causing a reduction in new content which of course can cause the top end players to get bored and leave which continues to make the problem worse as more leave and the income from players continues to drop.Then consider the way casuals have complained about content difficulty in the past. What will happen when there aren't enough top end raiders selling raid loot for those casuals to do heroic zones?This game will be dead soon if SOE makes the mistake of losing their longtime players (think of what happened with SWG and the NGE). However the SC cash shop will probably remain and EQ2 will be nothing more than that.F2P change is EQ2's NGE. It's unfortunate more players don't see this and someday they will wonder what happened to the EQ2 that used to be fun that wasn't about buying new items from the marketplace.</blockquote>This says to me that you believe a vast majority of the game will quit eq2, because a couple people can purchase research reductors to get masters a little bit faster?As it is with SC trading i can buy 600sc, sell it for 60p, and get 2-4 masters instead of just one as it would be with the research reductors... I don't see them as any big issue other than a small source of income for soe, which will inturn allow them to make more content and stuff.

Lempo

11-19-2011, 03:43 AM

<cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This says to me that you believe a vast majority of the game will quit eq2, because a couple people can purchase research reductors to get masters a little bit faster?As it is with SC trading i can buy 600sc, sell it for 60p, and get 2-4 masters instead of just one as it would be with the research reductors... I don't see them as any big issue other than a small source of income for soe, which will inturn allow them to make more content and stuff.</blockquote>It says to me that he is full aware and understands that SOE is not going to stop with those. Those are the proverbial foot in the door, and we were outright lied to anyway, SJ decides with his coworkers if an items needs voting on if they say that "Everyone" agrees that it doesn't matter there will be no vote, there will be no vote on some of the other items that were (temporarily) removed. SJ said that they would remove them for the time being and in the future they would take votes on those types of items, NOT those items, those items will each and everyone come back and he will be able to cop out.On top of what Golbezz said about the polls, the polls will be presented in a static format, it is PROVEN that provided a list of choices people will select the first thing in the list when there is indifference, this is either the top or the leftmost item. That is why Extended was put on the left side of the pop up on everquest2.com, marketing strategy has proven time and time again that the predominate choice will be the left. Even if the votes are not tallied like Golbezz stated, they will without a doubt be presented to push people to choose what SOE wants. Political polls are like this, research study polls are like this people that write such polls that can produce the desired result are paid quite well for their ability.Wait and see. I'm not preaching doom and gloom, I'm not canceling my sub but I am spamming the channels right now in game to get the word out about their intentions.

Golbezz

11-19-2011, 03:57 AM

<cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This says to me that you believe a vast majority of the game will quit eq2, because a couple people can purchase research reductors to get masters a little bit faster?As it is with SC trading i can buy 600sc, sell it for 60p, and get 2-4 masters instead of just one as it would be with the research reductors... I don't see them as any big issue other than a small source of income for soe, which will inturn allow them to make more content and stuff.</blockquote>The issue isn't just any single marketplace pay-to-win item but the combined effects of many pay-to-win items available. The presence of any of these items makes it easier for SOE to introduce more of them. Many players already have quit just since the F2P announcement, others quit over the price of the expansion. Pay to win items will eventually drive away the players who think in game rewards should be gained by playing the game rather than purchasing items from a cash shop. These are the same players also against the SC trade and the buying/selling of plat.Seriously though, the more items players can buy the faster they will get bored since they won't have anything left to work for. So yes, I'm saying I expect over the longer term a large number of players will leave as a direct result of pay-to-win items in the game. Combine these players who leave because they get bored of in-game SC shopping with the players who leave because they don't want pay-to-win items and it could be a very large group of players gone from the game, possibly even the majority if SOE manages to mess things up enough.

Valena

11-19-2011, 06:03 AM

<cite>Steppen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite>This says to me that you believe a vast majority of the game will quit eq2, because a couple people can purchase research reductors to get masters a little bit faster?As it is with SC trading i can buy 600sc, sell it for 60p, and get 2-4 masters instead of just one as it would be with the research reductors... I don't see them as any big issue other than a small source of income for soe, which will inturn allow them to make more content and stuff.</blockquote>No, this isn't the issue. The issue is that such items are seen as an indicator on what is to come.Selling shortcuts like this can pressure new players into spending SC. Imagine that you are applying for a raid spot and they only want Mastered characters. SC is your way in. What if they then add potions that add 10 levels or 10 AA at a time? Then the accepted minimum AA for a spot will be 300 as it is so easy to buy.Progression in an MMO has always depended on time investment. If you remove that then players have less reason to become attached to their characters and are more likely to quit for something new than someone who has invested 6 years and countless hours playing and developing their character. And that of course is also why so many are against DYOD using Avatars.

Minzi

11-19-2011, 06:13 AM

<cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I reallize it's not going to make much difference in the end, I feel selling research reducers is a BAD idea. Particularly since I found out today that they can be stacked on one spell and you can get them instantly, completely bypassing the wait. Might as well sell masters on the marketplace for 600 SC at that point.Masters aren't 'hard' to get if you get them by researcher but time investment is required. Getting them the old fashioned way can still be a pain in the rear and can be very pricey if you choose to purchase them via plat.Selling the research reducers for such a small amount (150 for the 7day reducers) and allowing them to stack with each other so that you can completely bypass all the time it normally takes to research is equivalent to putting fabled armor on SC. It very directly impacts the gameplay of those who choose to spend real money and immediately makes them more powerful than those who do not choose to spend real money. This is exactly the thing that Live players have been railing against from the beginning.It directly impacts sages/alchemists/jewelers viablity as classes (people bought experts so they could research masters faster). It goes beyond 'convience'. </blockquote>Researching to expert takes, what, two weeks for 81+ spells? So someone wanting to go from adept to master via research would be spending 9 dollars rather than 6.I suspect most people will opt to save the 3 bucks and buy the expert spells.

Ginfress02

11-19-2011, 06:27 AM

Seeying the amount of people on live who already buy xp,aa and vitality potions tell me they wouldnt mind potions that speedup research either. Not to mention those who already buy plat either by SC trading or illigally. Pay to win had already started before the SC shop was added by SoE.

SiegaPlays

11-19-2011, 12:51 PM

Doesn't the majority of the competitive players already have their masters done and level 90? So fearing the endgame will be twisted by timersave items at this point is not really a problem. Most of you are already set and not in any danger of being required to buy timesavers to have an edge. Most attempts on servers first in DoV content has surely been done (I don't raid in this game so I do not care enough to keep track of who is ahead).If you want a healthy number of recruits or class-switches, timesavers is actually to your benefits too. It does not take age or account longevity to be a good player, but without the timesavers a good player may have to wait very long to have an acceptable toon to app for a raiding guild. If they have the money to get ready through timesavers, it is to your benefit.What is the problem of the majority of non-endgame players using timesavers to get to enjoy their game? They are not competing with you, so why bother so much with restricting them and preventing their money finding its way to pay the developement and bug solving? Getting mastered up does not all of a sudden make a casual player able to outdo raiders, unless they can actually play already.Would you rather be grouping with them with adepts and experts? I have on these very boards seen people saying that no way they wanted to group with people who are not master spelled and they'd drop any group that a freebie or silver joined.Timesavers is a good thing for a game when it is at the point where there has been plenty of time for the endgame community to level up and deck themselves up and shiney. Timesavers makes new players able to catch up and put new blood into areas at a time where vets may be passing out from farming or hitting their head into a wall.If ALL timesavers could be locked and unusable for the first 2 months after any level/aa cap increase, would it be more acceptable? There will still be people having an edge over others purely from being good at farming xp due to their raid gear and abilities. But they would not be performance enhanced. This way timesavers would be for people, who has to play catch-up because they are not benefitted from guild aquired gear at a time where the endgame is well past the point of prepping.

Talathion

11-19-2011, 01:00 PM

New Expac, lots of problems, biggest problem is... "Research Reducers... ?!" LOL

Gaealiege

11-19-2011, 01:02 PM

You don't even have to go into the expansion for problems. We have several multi-month old problems that need addressed.

thesiren

11-19-2011, 01:19 PM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seeying the amount of people on live who already buy xp,aa and vitality potions tell me they wouldnt mind potions that speedup research either. Not to mention those who already buy plat either by SC trading or illigally. Pay to win had already started before the SC shop was added by SoE.</blockquote>This.And the next post concerning A.) live's high amount of long-since-level-90 toons has a good point, too. It won't affect any of you anyway.And although I would never bother buying Research Reducers (real life time goes by so fast I can barely get on enough to keep track of the Research Assistant never mind feeling like I need those potions), why is it such a bad thing if new players, so far behind in a 7-year-old game, want to pay SOE extra money and help financially back our game to play "catch up" more quickly?I say let them. Paying six or nine bucks a pop US or whatever it is will get old fast for them anyway, especially before level 90.

Golbezz

11-19-2011, 04:07 PM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seeying the amount of people on live who already buy xp,aa and vitality potions tell me they wouldnt mind potions that speedup research either. Not to mention those who already buy plat either by SC trading or illigally. Pay to win had already started before the SC shop was added by SoE.</blockquote>Pay-to-win could also be countered by the community by reporting/petitioning players who were buying/selling plat before SC.The number of players already buying items should clearly point out the dangers of pay-to-win as these items are becoming required for players to level fast. Of course it's clear that certain players like you don't like to work for things in game. What is going to happen when you can buy everything and not need to earn anything by actually playing the game? Will you get bored and quit because you are able to buy everything you need from SC?

Ginfress02

11-19-2011, 04:42 PM

<cite>Golbezz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seeying the amount of people on live who already buy xp,aa and vitality potions tell me they wouldnt mind potions that speedup research either. Not to mention those who already buy plat either by SC trading or illigally. Pay to win had already started before the SC shop was added by SoE.</blockquote>Pay-to-win could also be countered by the community by reporting/petitioning players who were buying/selling plat before SC.The number of players already buying items should clearly point out the dangers of pay-to-win as these items are becoming required for players to level fast. Of course it's clear that certain players like you don't like to work for things in game. What is going to happen when you can buy everything and not need to earn anything by actually playing the game? Will you get bored and quit because you are able to buy everything you need from SC?</blockquote>Please explain to me how waiting for the master-research for 30 days is considered work? Waiting for a full month is playing the game? A top heavy game will not die because of seeying certain potions being sold to make people get faster to the magic level 90 and get their skills scaled up. The day the SC-shop starts selling mythical/fabled armor and weapons you have a point, until then it's a chicken-little action. Enjoy the game, i know i will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" />

Lempo

11-19-2011, 05:03 PM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please explain to me how waiting for the master-research for 30 days is considered work? Waiting for a full month is playing the game? A top heavy game will not die because of seeying certain potions being sold to make people get faster to the magic level 90. The day the SC-shop starts selling mythical/fabled armor and weapons you have a point, until then it's a chicken-little action. Enjoy the game, i know i will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It is not work to wait for the master research for 30 days, you start your research, you get out in the game you run zones, you try to win your master, if you don't then you might get a master for another class, you check on broker and find someone to trade with. This all promotes interaction and encourages the nature of the MMORPG. Funny how we don't have a point until mythical/fabled armor is on the SC shop. Where exactly should the line be drawn?People just can not see this for what it is, it is the gateway to them piling on in the SC shop, little by little, THE FASTEST MOUNTS IN THE GAME ARE ALREADY THERE ON LIVE, next CB and POT stats will be added to them, self rez scrolls will be put back in, this is already planned, because when SJ asks his team they will reply it shouldn't matter and they will be back, because EVERYONE says it doesn't matter.I do enjoy the game but players are leaving the game because of them placating the F2P crowd, I have not heard anyone in the F2P crowd say they would leave if the items were removed, but I have heard that people would leave if those items were there.

Ginfress02

11-19-2011, 05:10 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please explain to me how waiting for the master-research for 30 days is considered work? Waiting for a full month is playing the game? A top heavy game will not die because of seeying certain potions being sold to make people get faster to the magic level 90. The day the SC-shop starts selling mythical/fabled armor and weapons you have a point, until then it's a chicken-little action. Enjoy the game, i know i will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>It is not work to wait for the master research for 30 days, you start your research, you get out in the game you run zones, you try to win your master, if you don't then you might get a master for another class, you check on broker and find someone to trade with. This all promotes interaction and encourages the nature of the MMORPG. Funny how we don't have a point until mythical/fabled armor is on the SC shop. Where exactly should the line be drawn?People just can not see this for what it is, it is the gateway to them piling on in the SC shop, little by little, THE FASTEST MOUNTS IN THE GAME ARE ALREADY THERE ON LIVE, next CB and POT stats will be added to them, self rez scrolls will be put back in, this is already planned, because when SJ asks his team they will reply it shouldn't matter and they will be back, because EVERYONE says it doesn't matter.I do enjoy the game but players are leaving the game because of them placating the F2P crowd, I have not heard anyone in the F2P crowd say they would leave if the items were removed, but I have heard that people would leave if those items were there.</blockquote>Fabled/mythical armor+weapons which you must buy for SC to play the game is for me the line. I buy mounts i like visually, it doesn't bother me i get them with SC. They arent helping me to get dungeons and raids done. And of course those SC-mounts are faster then in game. Nobody would buy them if the game has equal stuff. Self rez scrolls dont bother me, speeds the game up nothing wrong with that. And live people who leave is ok, i rather have fresh ftp players who enjoy the game than hearing vets moan how the current game in their eyes suck. edit: spelling

WeatherMan

11-19-2011, 05:17 PM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please explain to me how waiting for the master-research for 30 days is considered work? Waiting for a full month is playing the game? A top heavy game will not die because of seeying certain potions being sold to make people get faster to the magic level 90 and get their skills scaled up. The day the SC-shop starts selling mythical/fabled armor and weapons you have a point, until then it's a chicken-little action. Enjoy the game, i know i will <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>This. ^ ^ ^I cannot help but have the opinion that another element in this discussion is one of control. Not SOE's control over the player base, I would guess we all know that this is the case to begin with, and not always for the better.No, I refer to the tendency of fully decked-out and Mastered-up souls to decry the ability of others to attain certain thresholds of 'playability'. Not all of them are the annoying gits who like to strut around like an epileptic peacock and flash their glitz in other people's faces (although there are certainly plenty of those), but they pretty much all feel threatened by other players, most of whom they wouldn't interact with, anyways, attaining a certain level of the aforementioned 'playability'.I myself am approaching this from two angles. Firstly, I am far too tight-fisted to buy research accelerators, when all I need is a bit of patience, and maybe use that time to level up an alt or three. Experts serve perfectly well until you get to 90, then you keep doing the one-a-month research process from the top down. What's the issue here? If having Experts somehow makes you unworthy in the eyes of a group or raid leader, they likely aren't worth your time (and are probably one of the aforementioned peacocks, anyways)I am also far too miserly to pay some of the ridiculous prices the gougerboys and gougergirls ask for the masters they post on the broker. Screw that. In both cases, I will wait. And if my Expert-level stuff just isn't good enough for someone else, screw them, too. I have (and I am sure it was not a compliment) been compared to Scrooge on more than one occasion. Yeah - what's your point?Secondly, I am one of those people who couldn't care less what SOE sells on the Station Market. Mythical/Fabled armor and weapons? Sure, fine, whatever. Not going to shell out the cash for something I can get as a drop or chest in-game, but if someone else wants to pay to be able to play the game their way, more power to them. Just don't expect me to care - heck, I don't care what people have now. People's 'accomplishments' with pixels and a buck-fifty will get them a medium coffee at 7-11.

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 12:57 AM

Yeah, rezz scrolls, especially if rezzing an entire group, do in fact affect gameplay. While not all raids can save themselves by an instant self-rezz, there are plenty that can and will.The issue that people seem to keep missing here isn't one of "X affects Y by Z quantity/amount/percent". It's an issue of Sony telling us they wouldn't sell anything that affects gameplay. I'd love to see the argument that having a master over an expert doesn't affect gameplay. Go ahead and lay that out for me.Then the issue is compounded by what we players have already seen done. That is slipping more things in once this "non-issue" is sorted out. Then we'll get a nice forum post about how putting legendary gear on the marketplace doesn't really affect gameplay because it takes seconds to clear Karnor's Castle. It's an infinite regress of stupidity.

WeatherMan

11-20-2011, 01:53 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, rezz scrolls, especially if rezzing an entire group, do in fact affect gameplay. While not all raids can save themselves by an instant self-rezz, there are plenty that can and will.The issue that people seem to keep missing here isn't one of "X affects Y by Z quantity/amount/percent". It's an issue of Sony telling us they wouldn't sell anything that affects gameplay. I'd love to see the argument that having a master over an expert doesn't affect gameplay. Go ahead and lay that out for me.Then the issue is compounded by what we players have already seen done. That is slipping more things in once this "non-issue" is sorted out. Then we'll get a nice forum post about how putting legendary gear on the marketplace doesn't really affect gameplay because it takes seconds to clear Karnor's Castle. It's an infinite regress of stupidity. </blockquote>You have a point when you make the 'Sony said they wouldn't' argument. But Sony has said they would/wouldn't do a lot of things, and then went ahead and did the exact opposite. So this should not exactly come as a shocker.But let me ask a hypothetical 'Research Reducer' question. Suppose I somehow overcome my miserliness (that is how it is hypothetical), and buy a couple of RRs. I boost the Experts I want up to Master. I did not, however, buy Masters off the broker, even though they are there, and in fact the act of scribing them would take me a fraction of the time that using a RR would. In both cases, I am 'paying to win', am I not?Smedbucks for plat and SLR are just different facets of this - RRs are no different. Now, while I said (and meant) that I didn't care if they DID start selling Fabled/Mythical/Whatever gear on the Station Market, this likely WOULD have an unusual effect on the game. But the fact is, you can't just up and buy them on the broker from a player. You CAN just up and buy a Master. Or, you CAN just wait a month (and I do). All it means is that I'll be doing that raid or dungeon in two months instead of now - big deal.I'm patient enough to wait. i realize some people aren't. And that's okay. Whether the effort is expended in-game on leisure time in Velious, or expended in the real world laboring at a real job (which they may despise, but don't dare quite), it's effort either way. And I am not going to presume that I have all the answers as to how the game should be played.

WanyenII

11-20-2011, 08:12 AM

Well said here and above.

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 08:12 AM

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 11:47 AM

Yeah, you're right at 100% incorrect on that Ginfress. If you want to raid you're going to be using masters or you're not going to be raiding high end. If you want to raid at all you're not going to be wearing legendary gear whatsoever, unless the raid leader is utterly incompetent.These are in fact necessary to raid. They are then necessary to play. Selling them on the marketplace to mental invalids that use the "I shouldn't have to.." argument is absurd. These are items in a game that has always required effort on the part of the player to obtain. Buying a master off the broker with in game currency that required effort in the game to obtain is not the same as just buying the master with real cash. You can argue yourself blue in the face that buying gear off the marketplace isn't different than running a quest, heroic dungeon, or raid, but the problem with it is you're entirely wrong. Buying it with real currency requires no actions within the game world. Buying it with in game currency does.Edit: I fear a time when raiding does require you have your own self-rezz scroll or you're not allowed in. That's what I expect to see. All apps saying you must own X station cash item or don't bother.

agentsix

11-20-2011, 11:58 AM

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 12:04 PM

Because I earned it through superior skill, knowledge, or luck. You obtained it because you bought it. I almost certainly wouldn't be grouping with you either. I would automatically assume you have no idea how to play your character if I knew beforehand. My guess is without that knowledge beforehand though, it would show in the dungeon.

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 12:10 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, you're right at 100% incorrect on that Ginfress. If you want to raid you're going to be using masters or you're not going to be raiding high end. If you want to raid at all you're not going to be wearing legendary gear whatsoever, unless the raid leader is utterly incompetent.These are in fact necessary to raid. They are then necessary to play. Selling them on the marketplace to mental invalids that use the "I shouldn't have to.." argument is absurd. These are items in a game that has always required effort on the part of the player to obtain. Buying a master off the broker with in game currency that required effort in the game to obtain is not the same as just buying the master with real cash. You can argue yourself blue in the face that buying gear off the marketplace isn't different than running a quest, heroic dungeon, or raid, but the problem with it is you're entirely wrong. Buying it with real currency requires no actions within the game world. Buying it with in game currency does.Edit: I fear a time when raiding does require you have your own self-rezz scroll or you're not allowed in. That's what I expect to see. All apps saying you must own X station cash item or don't bother.</blockquote>The game doesn't evolve on high and raiding where people are being forced to play a certain way. The SC-shop is not the dead of gaming, it makes the braindead mindlessly running of errands easier. And a lot of live players think the same, else there wasnt a need for an SC shop. Or you think SoE pays people make the SC-items because players don't buy them?It's the community of players who want those items and they keep buying them. People yelled the day faster mounts were on the store, yet today i see more SC-mounts than in game available mounts. People yell xp/aa/vitality potions ruin the game, yet on double xp weekends they drink them as koolaid to get faster to the magical level 90. You don't have to like it but apparently others think different even those on the live-servers. People yelled that appearance items on the store kill the game, yet i see more people dressed with them than without. People yelled the game will die by sc-furniture yet tons of them buy the stuff and build amazing homes and even show them.

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 12:12 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I earned it through superior skill, knowledge, or luck. You obtained it because you bought it. I almost certainly wouldn't be grouping with you either. I would automatically assume you have no idea how to play your character if I knew beforehand. My guess is without that knowledge beforehand though, it would show in the dungeon.</blockquote>If you would never play with those people how does it affect you?

WeatherMan

11-20-2011, 12:13 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, you're right at 100% incorrect on that Ginfress. If you want to raid you're going to be using masters or you're not going to be raiding high end. If you want to raid at all you're not going to be wearing legendary gear whatsoever, unless the raid leader is utterly incompetent.These are in fact necessary to raid. They are then necessary to play. Selling them on the marketplace to mental invalids that use the "I shouldn't have to.." argument is absurd. These are items in a game that has always required effort on the part of the player to obtain. Buying a master off the broker with in game currency that required effort in the game to obtain is not the same as just buying the master with real cash. You can argue yourself blue in the face that buying gear off the marketplace isn't different than running a quest, heroic dungeon, or raid, but the problem with it is you're entirely wrong. Buying it with real currency requires no actions within the game world. Buying it with in game currency does.Edit: I fear a time when raiding does require you have your own self-rezz scroll or you're not allowed in. That's what I expect to see. All apps saying you must own X station cash item or don't bother.</blockquote>So my question then, is: Are you approaching this issue soley from the point of a raider? As it stands, all people can still attain Masters, with just a little patience. Purchasing a RR from the Market will net you the same result as...purchasing a Master from the broker. In either case, the purchaser worked to earn the money (whether in-game or at a real job), and in both cases, the final result is exactly the same. In both cases, wouldn't this be 'pay-to-win'? Would you still be upset if that person gets their Master -NAME- two months from now, as opposed to now, simply by waiting, because they simply don't have the plat to buy it off the broker, or (speaking for myself) are far too tightwad? At what point will they not be 'paying to win'?If you are discussing Fabled and Mythical gear, sure, you could say that there's no way someone could attain this without going through X dungeon/raid zone/whatever (although SLR, which is perfectly allowable 'by the rules', bends this a bit), but you can't take said items to the broker - it can't be done. When a Master drops, it is automatically able to be posted and sold. By definition, if someone has the plat - regardless of how they obtained it - to buy it off the broker, they must be considered as 'paying to win' - they are using a legitimate form of currency in-game, and they 'win'. They have their Master, and 99 times out of 100, no one will be any the wiser as to how. What's more, it's my belief that most people won't care, either.

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 12:17 PM

I guess people just don't want to run the dungeons that have the equal speed mounts or potions dropping in them. Oh, nevermind that's right. They don't drop in game. Hmm, so if one wanted to obtain them...that's right. Your only option is to purchase them. Of course people buy them from the market when there isn't an alternate option. I don't recall seeing a single post where people demanded that faster mounts be on the marketplace only. SOE put them on there without any such information. It's obvious then that people would only buy them from the marketplace only....because that's the only place where you can get them.And actually the game was created with high end raiding being the primary focus. Those of us that achieve 99% more than you have lost that focus, I concur with you there. Your primary argument is what we call in the world of big words, illogical. The furniture, the potions, the fastest mounts aren't an option in game without paying real dollars. No one asked for that to be the case. SOE made it the case so then of course they're purchased. The day I start seeing mythical/legendary/fabled gear, not available in game, but on the marketplace is the day this game dies.The buy it now crowd isn't the achieve it crowd. So they'll have their full set of fabled but never touched a raid mob. lol

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 12:21 PM

Well let me set up a hypothetical for you, Gin. You're a defense attorney. You grew up poor and worked your way through law school and earned your J.D. You're now a supreme court justice. Pretty proud of your accomplishments right? You should be.The supreme court justice next to you purchased his position. Guess that doesn't upset you at all? That definitely marrs your accomplishment. What kind of accomplishment is it when you could have just purchased it?Editted to reply to Weather: Again, the difference is this. I earned it. He bought it. Paying with platinum and paying with real currency aren't equal. I agree it's possible he purchased the platinum, but that's against EULA, and I imagine therefore illegal. Let's just assume legal transactions. There's certainly no way to tell unless he's in his awesome full set of PQ gear and let's you know he's fully mastered.And yes, only raiding requires masters. Everything else can be run through with experts easily. So the matter of masters is purely a raiding standard. And you're right as it stands all people can EARN masters. Kill a mob and you instantly have 0.01% chance of a master.

SiegaPlays

11-20-2011, 12:27 PM

So you would automatically assume that a new player, who join late in the game, who used new methods for char developement improvements to get to the point of being able to contribute on par with existing toons, is not ever going to be a worthy player?It is the attitude of old blood aristocrats not liking nouveau money. Scuffing new money because their blue blood earned a title centuries and generations ago - and then stagnated, because of their reluctance to change.No way could the new money raise above their merchant station and be equal or even better than old blood.Sad how history repeats.

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 12:31 PM

Actually you have that kind of out of order. No one that is a current high end raider paid for their achievements. None of them paid for their current gear. You're saying that others though should be allowed to and not have to achieve/earn their gear because our way of thinking is antiquated?No player who bought their gear is going to compete with a member of the high end. That's just a fantasy of those low-born peasant non-high enders.

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 12:39 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess people just don't want to run the dungeons that have the equal speed mounts or potions dropping in them. Oh, nevermind that's right. They don't drop in game. Hmm, so if one wanted to obtain them...that's right. Your only option is to purchase them. Of course people buy them from the market when there isn't an alternate option. I don't recall seeing a single post where people demanded that faster mounts be on the marketplace only. SOE put them on there without any such information. It's obvious then that people would only buy them from the marketplace only....because that's the only place where you can get them.And actually the game was created with high end raiding being the primary focus. Those of us that achieve 99% more than you have lost that focus, I concur with you there. Your primary argument is what we call in the world of big words, illogical. The furniture, the potions, the fastest mounts aren't an option in game without paying real dollars. No one asked for that to be the case. SOE made it the case so then of course they're purchased. The day I start seeing mythical/legendary/fabled gear, not available in game, but on the marketplace is the day this game dies.The buy it now crowd isn't the achieve it crowd. So they'll have their full set of fabled but never touched a raid mob. lol</blockquote>Lol you actually proved my point. People buy them from the shop when there isn't an alternate option. In other words people don't hate the SC-shop, they are actually using it. People buy the potions (included the raiders to get there alts to 90). If people hate the shop, don't want the shop, they wouldn't use the shop no matter what it delivers.

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 12:46 PM

I don't see where I typed that people hate the shop. I see where I said paying for something that affects gameplay exactly what SOE said they wouldn't do and are now doing. I see where I was lied to by Sony. I see where I said they'll use that as a foot in the door. I don't see where I said I hate the shop though.Raiders aren't using these items. They don't exist on live. If you think that EQ2X competes with live on raid content you're misinformed.Raiders are required to have masters which they earned in some manner, in-game currently.

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 12:49 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well let me set up a hypothetical for you, Gin. You're a defense attorney. You grew up poor and worked your way through law school and earned your J.D. You're now a supreme court justice. Pretty proud of your accomplishments right? You should be.The supreme court justice next to you purchased his position. Guess that doesn't upset you at all? That definitely marrs your accomplishment. What kind of accomplishment is it when you could have just purchased it?</blockquote>I couldn't care less. If he is good he stays on his position, if he stands there like an idiot he loses his job and the money he spended to get to the same point as me.Same for me in the game. If someone in my guild would buy his character for real life money i would still play with him and judge on the way he is playing. If people buy everything they can from the shop i don't mind it. They are funding my game. None of the shop is needed to play the game. Not my fault certain players force others to buy sc-stuff else they aren't allowed to play with them. And of course its a smart business move from SoE. They create a shop, and people buy what's in it, included the full sc-shop haters.

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 01:09 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually you have that kind of out of order. No one that is a current high end raider paid for their achievements. None of them paid for their current gear. You're saying that others though should be allowed to and not have to achieve/earn their gear because our way of thinking is antiquated?No player who bought their gear is going to compete with a member of the high end. That's just a fantasy of those low-born peasant non-high enders.</blockquote>If the market changes and people can buy their way up and perform it shouldnt be an issue. Well maybe someone who calls other gamers "low-born peasant non-high enders" might have an issue but that's expected (but that is of course a whole different discussion).

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 01:17 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see where I typed that people hate the shop. I see where I said paying for something that affects gameplay exactly what SOE said they wouldn't do and are now doing. I see where I was lied to by Sony. I see where I said they'll use that as a foot in the door. I don't see where I said I hate the shop though.Raiders aren't using these items. They don't exist on live. If you think that EQ2X competes with live on raid content you're misinformed.Raiders are required to have masters which they earned in some manner, in-game currently.</blockquote>I didn't state that you hate the sc-shop <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And Sony lied? A business isn't allowed to change their points of view if the market asks for it? You do know how big the illigal-market for mmorpg-games is? Its billions of dollars, why shouldnt a company use that in their advance? And are you sure none of the high-end raiders ever used the illigal market either?

WeatherMan

11-20-2011, 01:19 PM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well let me set up a hypothetical for you, Gin. You're a defense attorney. You grew up poor and worked your way through law school and earned your J.D. You're now a supreme court justice. Pretty proud of your accomplishments right? You should be.The supreme court justice next to you purchased his position. Guess that doesn't upset you at all? That definitely marrs your accomplishment. What kind of accomplishment is it when you could have just purchased it?</blockquote>I couldn't care less. If he is good he stays on his position, if he stands there like an idiot he loses his job and the money he spended to get to the same point as me.Same for me in the game. If someone in my guild would buy his character for real life money i would still play with him and judge on the way he is playing. If people buy everything they can from the shop i don't mind it. They are funding my game. None of the shop is needed to play the game. Not my fault certain players force others to buy sc-stuff else they aren't allowed to play with them. And of course its a smart business move from SoE. They create a shop, and people buy what's in it, included the full sc-shop haters.</blockquote>The bolded text is pretty much a lot of the issue. A lot of raiders (not all, but a lot) tend to turn their noses up at people who have gear, etc. that isn't quite good enough, even if that person worked hard to get where they are. The better raiders will understand that raid-quality gear...for their raids...won't magically appear for these new applicants, and are willing to include them. It is generally the 'elite club' mentality that keeps this from happening.The issue here is whether non-raiders deserve to have Masters, isn't it? Let's stop mincing words and just say it: "People who don't raid should have absolutely no way to get Masters." Believe it or not, I'd support that, if Masters were usable only by the people who were in the raid. No decking out alts, no selling it on the broker, nothing. You use it, give it to someone in the raid who can use it, or you vendor/transmute it. No other options. Because any other options means the person didn't earn it. Then only the ones who earned it will have Masters.

agentsix

11-20-2011, 01:22 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I earned it through superior skill, knowledge, or luck. You obtained it because you bought it. </blockquote>If that is your moral compass then fine. You play your game. Let them play theirs.At the end of the day, it does matter if you got your from grinding 8 hours while someone worked at a job for 8 hours then bought theirs. You both are at the same point and time. The real question is, can you finish the zone with the skills you have at your disposal?

SiegaPlays

11-20-2011, 01:23 PM

I do not think buying gear from the marketplace equal to raid achievements should be an option at all. I don't even like seeing mastercrafted gear and rares there, it puts crafters out of their job and make a mockery of ingame features.Gear and clearing content is what defines the game achievements for a lot of players, myself included though I have to do it casually on easy group content.How much time people spend or if they can afford saving some time here and there by using reducers, SC xp pots or vet rewards pots does not define the game. But it can help pay it.I say timesavers is ok, so new players can get to the point, where they can earn their gear. Blue blood players say it is not ok to be able to get to their station for a new player, and no way are they going to accept players, who tries. There is not so many of you about, so it does not really matter that your are not in the pool of players to group with.<div>But considering new players bad alround? Either they use timesavers and then surely they can not know how to play - or they do not use timesavers and then surely they are neglecting their toon running around with lower level spells and such, because they a new, so they have not had the time from a couple of week into SF to research them - so they can not play. Either way, you do not want to group with them.</div><div></div><div>The only new player you do not mind is the one who pays his sub and keeps a low profile far out of your sight, but contributing to pay running the game.</div><div></div><div>An older game HAS to make it possible to transcend the time difference to catch up for new players, or the lost old blood will be harder and harder to replace from a slowly dimishing playerbase.</div><div></div><div>The time it took to get raid ready for the top content in the very first expansion should be the max time it takes to get raid ready for current top content today. Or the game will fail to renew despite advertisements and new payment plans.</div><div></div><div></div><div>My use of "you" is everyone, who said they won't play with players who used timesavers, not just the poster I am responding to.</div>

Ginfress02

11-20-2011, 02:47 PM

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well let me set up a hypothetical for you, Gin. You're a defense attorney. You grew up poor and worked your way through law school and earned your J.D. You're now a supreme court justice. Pretty proud of your accomplishments right? You should be.The supreme court justice next to you purchased his position. Guess that doesn't upset you at all? That definitely marrs your accomplishment. What kind of accomplishment is it when you could have just purchased it?</blockquote>I couldn't care less. If he is good he stays on his position, if he stands there like an idiot he loses his job and the money he spended to get to the same point as me.Same for me in the game. If someone in my guild would buy his character for real life money i would still play with him and judge on the way he is playing. If people buy everything they can from the shop i don't mind it. They are funding my game. None of the shop is needed to play the game. Not my fault certain players force others to buy sc-stuff else they aren't allowed to play with them. And of course its a smart business move from SoE. They create a shop, and people buy what's in it, included the full sc-shop haters.</blockquote>The bolded text is pretty much a lot of the issue. A lot of raiders (not all, but a lot) tend to turn their noses up at people who have gear, etc. that isn't quite good enough, even if that person worked hard to get where they are. The better raiders will understand that raid-quality gear...for their raids...won't magically appear for these new applicants, and are willing to include them. It is generally the 'elite club' mentality that keeps this from happening.The issue here is whether non-raiders deserve to have Masters, isn't it? Let's stop mincing words and just say it: "People who don't raid should have absolutely no way to get Masters." Believe it or not, I'd support that, if Masters were usable only by the people who were in the raid. No decking out alts, no selling it on the broker, nothing. You use it, give it to someone in the raid who can use it, or you vendor/transmute it. No other options. Because any other options means the person didn't earn it. Then only the ones who earned it will have Masters.</blockquote>I don't think that it's just the masters people can get it's more the attitude of "i played the game until now like this and all newer people should be forced to go through the same loop-holes i had to go through." I dare even to say that high end raiders use the whole sc-potion part to level their alts to their playfield themselves so all their hate is more or less moot. The moment research speeders enter the live-shop they will buy them too even when they hate to see them being sold. The SC-shop will never kill this game, it will only enhance it. The mentality of "you must do and buy what i tell you to buy else you will not be allowed to play with us" might hurt it bigger.

WeatherMan

11-20-2011, 03:18 PM

<cite>Ginfress02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think that it's just the masters people can get it's more the attitude of "i played the game until now like this and all newer people should be forced to go through the same loop-holes i had to go through." I dare even to say that high end raiders use the whole sc-potion part to level their alts to their playfield themselves so all their hate is more or less moot. The moment research speeders enter the live-shop they will buy them too even when they hate to see them being sold. The SC-shop will never kill this game, it will only enhance it. The mentality of "you must do and buy what i tell you to buy else you will not be allowed to play with us" might hurt it bigger.</blockquote>Good analysis.I have seen some raiders who rail against such things as innocuous as Research Reducers make statements like: "I'll save this uber gear for my alts." Will you? How nice for your alt. Did you take that alt and go earn it yourself on that alt? No, you didn't - that alt got it courtesy of your raid-geared-and-mastered primary. Oh, and Masters, too, no doubt.No one, not even SOE, is suggesting that Fabled/Mythical gear will ever be sold on the Station Market. In fact, they have stated they will not be. Proof? Beastlords. When people were clamoring for beastlords, the official response was "At this time, we have no plans to introduce beastlords." The defining part being "AT THIS TIME". No such quantifier has been used when describing uber gear being sold for real life cash.So the Chicken Little alarmists can relax. The Raider's Club hegemony is safe, the game will never be 'pay-to-win'.

Tigress

11-20-2011, 08:06 PM

Gaealiege

11-20-2011, 11:39 PM

It just breaks down to earned or bought really. Regardless of your thoughts the earned crowd are superior to the bought crowd. I'm not arguing that non-raiders shouldn't have masters. I am arguing that people (raiders, elitists, casuals, fluff players, or Ethiopians) shouldn't be allowed to pay to win. Paying platinum which is earned in game to buy an in game item is nowhere near the same as purchasing the highest tier of spell in game with real world currency.It's not about segregation at all. I'm elitist, certainly. I'm just tired of the idea that everyone should get something for nothing. What happened to effort and dignified achievement? This give-it-to-me-now crowd is pathetic.

Minzi

11-21-2011, 01:02 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just breaks down to earned or bought really. Regardless of your thoughts the earned crowd are superior to the bought crowd. I'm not arguing that non-raiders shouldn't have masters. I am arguing that people (raiders, elitists, casuals, fluff players, or Ethiopians) shouldn't be allowed to pay to win. Paying platinum which is earned in game to buy an in game item is nowhere near the same as purchasing the highest tier of spell in game with real world currency.It's not about segregation at all. I'm elitist, certainly. I'm just tired of the idea that everyone should get something for nothing. What happened to effort and dignified achievement? This give-it-to-me-now crowd is pathetic.</blockquote>Err, "something for nothing" kind of falls down a bit; the last I checked I needed to go to a job and put in work - that is to say, actual work, not hours in a video game - to earn money, and if I have enough to drop 6 bucks on a virtual item in a video game I'm probably working hard enough that I'm doing well enough that I won't notice the 6 bucks gone.What it boils down to in the end is that the only real currency in this world is time; we get a limited amount of time from birth to death and people that put their time into earning money often have an advantage over people who put their time into recreational pursuits like video games.

The_Cheeseman

11-21-2011, 02:04 AM

The slippery slope arguments here are totally off-base. A previous poster has already outlined how selling end-game gear on the marketplace would cause people to lose motivation to play the game and eventually quit playing. EQ2 is a game about advancing your character, and possibly the most important aspect of that advancement is gear. The reason most people keep playing is to acquire better gear. You think the dev team, the very people who design and maintain the gear progression system, don't realize this fact? You really think that a concept so simple that a random person on a forum can explain it, will somehow be missed by a group of professional game designers with years of experience between them?It baffles me that so many people assume that SOE is staffed by ignorant newbies who have no concept of what makes a good game. Newsflash folks: they design the game that you spend hours of your life playing almost every day. They aren't idiots, and they aren't going to do something that will so obviously sabotage their own game. You know, the game that pays their bills and puts food on their families' tables. The game that some of them have been working on for nearly a decade. The game that they are obviously personally invested in, and care deeply about.SOE makes decisions based on what they think will make a successful game. This means that they have to ensure that the game remains fun and profitable. Sacrificing the fun of the game for profit will cause the game to fail, this is not a positive outcome for them. It means they all have to get out their resumes and find new jobs, and in the current economy, that isn't a good boat to be in. You better believe that they are not going to do anything that they feel will jeopardize the health of their livelihood.However, you need to understand that what you want, or at least what you think you want, is not always what the majority of players want, and not even always what YOU actually want. You see, people often don't really know what they enjoy or don't enjoy until they are forced to try it. People also tend to fear change, assume the worst, and only acknowledge the validity arguments that they agree with. Professional game designers succeed by giving gamers what they need, not what they ask for.To summarize, you are very likely not a better game designer than the people who have made a living developing and maintaining EQ2 for the past 10 years. Obviously, the devs are doing a good job, or else you wouldn't care enough about EQ2 to bother posting on these forums. Most of the people railing against the F2P changes and Station Store have nothing but their own conspiracy theories and warrantless slippery slope arguments to support them, and those very arguments depend on the dev team being criminally inept at their jobs. Personally, I am not worried.

Ginfress02

11-21-2011, 03:28 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just breaks down to earned or bought really. Regardless of your thoughts the earned crowd are superior to the bought crowd. I'm not arguing that non-raiders shouldn't have masters. I am arguing that people (raiders, elitists, casuals, fluff players, or Ethiopians) shouldn't be allowed to pay to win. Paying platinum which is earned in game to buy an in game item is nowhere near the same as purchasing the highest tier of spell in game with real world currency.It's not about segregation at all. I'm elitist, certainly. I'm just tired of the idea that everyone should get something for nothing. What happened to effort and dignified achievement? This give-it-to-me-now crowd is pathetic.</blockquote>Sure, now make sure no player buys any longer sc-potions. Afterall anyone who buys an sc-potion is paying to win since the play-time is reduced by using them. They pay real life money to level faster. Then make sure that nobody is buying the faster mounts from the sc-store because they reduce travel time and that ain't fair to those who can't buy them. This give-it-to-me-now crowd is pathetic by your own words. Goodluck in finding enough players left who never will use anything from the store which of course affects highend players a lot because they are addicted in using sc-stuff to get them fast to the magic level 90 again or can you say for sure that nobody from your playfield never used the current sc-store?

Valena

11-21-2011, 04:24 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>It baffles me that so many people assume that SOE is staffed by ignorant newbies who have no concept of what makes a good game. Newsflash folks: they design the game that you spend hours of your life playing almost every day. They aren't idiots, and they aren't going to do something that will so obviously sabotage their own game. You know, the game that pays their bills and puts food on their families' tables. The game that some of them have been working on for nearly a decade. The game that they are obviously personally invested in, and care deeply about.SOE makes decisions based on what they think will make a successful game. This means that they have to ensure that the game remains fun and profitable. Sacrificing the fun of the game for profit will cause the game to fail, this is not a positive outcome for them. It means they all have to get out their resumes and find new jobs, and in the current economy, that isn't a good boat to be in. You better believe that they are not going to do anything that they feel will jeopardize the health of their livelihood.To summarize, you are very likely not a better game designer than the people who have made a living developing and maintaining EQ2 for the past 10 years. Obviously, the devs are doing a good job, or else you wouldn't care enough about EQ2 to bother posting on these forums. Most of the people railing against the F2P changes and Station Store have nothing but their own conspiracy theories and warrantless slippery slope arguments to support them, and those very arguments depend on the dev team being criminally inept at their jobs. Personally, I am not worried.</blockquote>So SOE know what their players want do they? Can you say NGE? Sony have a track record of doing "what they think is best" even when it isn't.The current crop of designers, and certainly the Lead Producer, aren't the same people who have been designing this game from day 1. They have made many bad decisions recently (the whole Crit Mit debacle, the changes to itemization, the terrible way in which itemization was re-itemized) and that is why many don't trust the current management of this game. The fact that we care enough to post has nothing to do with the fact that "the devs are doing a good job", it has to do with the fact that many have been here for 5, 6 or 7 years, saw the potential of this game and seen that potential wasted by changes in direction.If the devs were doing such a good job then 90% of the people that I know wouldn't still be undecided about buying DoV but would have pre-ordered as they did the last expansions by now.

SiegaPlays

11-21-2011, 04:58 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paying platinum which is earned in game to buy an in game item is nowhere near the same as purchasing the highest tier of spell in game with real world currency.</blockquote>They both spent time doing it, just not the same place. Spending real life money is not free unless you are independently wealthy and inherited it all. Assuming the ingame person actually did spend time earning the platinum to buy a piece of gear and didn't go through black market.Are you suggesting that grinding ones daily job is inferior to grinding whatever virtual mobs for hours? It does not take ubah skillz to farm mobs. But it does take time. In todays world if does take skills to keep a job, even skilled people are fired en masse :pTime is of the essence.People are paying to save real life time by buying stuff that does not take skills at all to aquire, so saying that by doing so they have no skills is far fetched. The game benefits when people have access to be able to buy themselves past the timeconsuming parts of the game that does not require skills to get. Unless you mean opening a window and starting a research 20ish something times over 20ish something months is a real challenge.The worry should be about people using a black market of SC to platinum exchange to get to the type of gear that does take skills to aquire outside a broker. If they earn the platinum ingame, fine, but if they use the chat channels to pay someone off, it is no better than taking an offer from an oldfashioned goldspammer. But that is not about the marketplace, that is about player behavior.

Daggster

11-21-2011, 06:56 AM

I fail to see how platinum you get while playing a video game is more "earned" than real life currency you get for doing your job...I studied hard to get the job I wanted, I've worked hard for the money in my bank account, it's million times more earned than anything I have on my characters in EQ2. IF I choose to spend that hard earned money to buy something in game, whatever I buy is truly earned. If I get something while playing the game, it's an added bonus I get for nothing in particular while I'm enjoying my free time playing a computer game.Edit: the if is bolded, because that's a big if for me. I don't mind paying for the service of running and providing the servers, or for providing more content/features, but paying for something for a character in game, that's a whole different story. XP potions most likely though, to advance my new characters faster with my limited gametime.Thinking about this a bit more, you're god darn right I should have a buyable advantage over some lazy ppl who just sit on their butts all day and play a video game and think they've earned something. Even if I didn't use it, it should be there. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Gaealiege

11-21-2011, 12:03 PM

Yes, I agree, many of you fail to see the point. Real life money earns you real life rewards. In-game currency eanrs in-game rewards. I have 56,000pp. Can I buy your house? What idiocy.It is something for nothing. Effort put into the game should give rewards in the game. No effort put into the GAME should not give REWARDS in the game. See how logic works? Interesting facet of sentience. Give it a shot.

Nrgy

11-21-2011, 01:36 PM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I agree, many of you fail to see the point. Real life money earns you real life rewards. In-game currency eanrs in-game rewards. I have 56,000pp. Can I buy your house? What idiocy.It is something for nothing. Effort put into the game should give rewards in the game. No effort put into the GAME should not give REWARDS in the game. See how logic works? Interesting facet of sentience. Give it a shot.</blockquote>SC has a RL cash equity and therefore, yes, you can buy someones RL house with in-game currency, it's a multi-million dollar a year business. It is, of course, against the eula becasue SOE is the actual owner of that virtual currency, not you. However, RL cash to SC cash transactions happen on a daily basis and although it would take more that 56,000 pp to buy a RL item as valuable as a house, you could certainly do it if you have both enough in-game currency and you sold it for RL currency. What idiocy, indeed.As long as in-game items can be circumvented by in-game mechanics there is no reason to think that out-game mechanics cannot do the same thing. If you can use RL cash to buy SC cards and sell SC for Plat and buy No-Trade items with plat then there is nothing wrong with in-game items for RL cash via the Marketplace. Nobody is "earning" anything under the common rule.____My only issue with items on the Marketplace is that SOE is the one controling the value and not the in-game economy. With multiple servers all having a different player base and infusing currency (whatever type) into the server economy at a different rate, there is no way that each server "should" have the same prices on the Marketplace for the same items.I wonder, If you can buy 28 days of research time for 600 SC, what that is actually worth in terms of in-game plat. Some T9 Masters sell for as little as 15p and some for as much as 150p+, at least on my server. So, the ones selling for 15p will most certainly remain at that price, but where will the 150p Masters end up. They might go down OR up depending on many different factors. Do players think that 600 SC = 150p? TBH, I have no idea what the Dollar-to-Plat conversion actually is, nor do I care.What WILL be interesting is if those "Pay-To-Win" items will be 100% giftable. That would make SC quite a strong in-game currency.

WeatherMan

11-21-2011, 01:36 PM

SiegaPlays

11-21-2011, 02:40 PM

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are not, repeat, not going to sell your precious drops-only-in-raids gear on the Station Market. No one will ever challenge the raider's precious hegemony over All Things Mythical (or Fabled).</blockquote>I thought it was timesavers that was the problem for some.People really think devs will shoot themselves in their toes and add stuff that not only require time but effort to get ingame to the marketplace?

Nrgy

11-21-2011, 02:52 PM

When the left-lane merges two miles ahead ... and the right-lane is backed up for two miles, how many people drive in the left-lan until they have to merge rather than moving over into the right lane as soon as they read the merge sign, passing hundreds of other people waiting for thier turn. Nobody wants to wait in line and that is all this is about.Buy some time, save some time, make some time ... Time equals money, sometimes its Plat and sometimes its SC, but it is all really the same.I'm not sure why some people think it is ok to buy Masters with Plat they buy from SC, but it's not ok buying Masters with SC. I'm not seeing a big difference.

WeatherMan

11-21-2011, 03:35 PM

<cite>SiegaPlays wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are not, repeat, not going to sell your precious drops-only-in-raids gear on the Station Market. No one will ever challenge the raider's precious hegemony over All Things Mythical (or Fabled).</blockquote>I thought it was timesavers that was the problem for some.People really think devs will shoot themselves in their toes and add stuff that not only require time but effort to get ingame to the marketplace?</blockquote>Apparently.Despite the fact I wouldn't care if they did start selling Fabled and Mythical gear in the Station Market, I know for a fact that it won't happen. That's Chicken Little alarmism. When these things show up in the Market, I will concede my mistake and apologize - until that day, it's bovine manure.The issue is simply whether cutting down on the time to get a Master that you will get anyways is somehow 'cheating'. If I bake a cake, and suddenly am able to use this brand-new whizbang oven I bought that will cook the cake to perfection, guaranteed, no chance of falling, and will bring out the perfection in each of the ingredients I used, and in half the time, am I 'cheating' if I use my new oven in preference to the ordinary one that came stock in the kitchen? Apparently so. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />The argument seems to be that people who don't want to give raiders plat or sit and wait for a month per Master to research should be SOL, and that somehow giving plat to people who sell Masters on the broker (where prices fluctuate depending on demand and depending how much of a greedy little git the seller is), or sitting and twiddling one's thumbs for a month per Master is somehow 'earning' it.All this said with a straight face while handing over uber gear to alts that didn't 'earn' it. Because let's be honest here - unless that alt is the exact same class as the one that picked up the drop, it is lying to oneself thinking that one has some moral imperative to dictate what is being earned and what is not. The sheer self-righteous arrogance of some people is absolutely astounding.

Daggster

11-21-2011, 03:42 PM

WanyenII

11-21-2011, 05:22 PM

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SiegaPlays wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are not, repeat, not going to sell your precious drops-only-in-raids gear on the Station Market. No one will ever challenge the raider's precious hegemony over All Things Mythical (or Fabled).</blockquote>I thought it was timesavers that was the problem for some.People really think devs will shoot themselves in their toes and add stuff that not only require time but effort to get ingame to the marketplace?</blockquote>Apparently.Despite the fact I wouldn't care if they did start selling Fabled and Mythical gear in the Station Market, I know for a fact that it won't happen. That's Chicken Little alarmism. When these things show up in the Market, I will concede my mistake and apologize - until that day, it's bovine manure.The issue is simply whether cutting down on the time to get a Master that you will get anyways is somehow 'cheating'. If I bake a cake, and suddenly am able to use this brand-new whizbang oven I bought that will cook the cake to perfection, guaranteed, no chance of falling, and will bring out the perfection in each of the ingredients I used, and in half the time, am I 'cheating' if I use my new oven in preference to the ordinary one that came stock in the kitchen? Apparently so. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />The argument seems to be that people who don't want to give raiders plat or sit and wait for a month per Master to research should be SOL, and that somehow giving plat to people who sell Masters on the broker (where prices fluctuate depending on demand and depending how much of a greedy little git the seller is), or sitting and twiddling one's thumbs for a month per Master is somehow 'earning' it.All this said with a straight face while handing over uber gear to alts that didn't 'earn' it. Because let's be honest here - unless that alt is the exact same class as the one that picked up the drop, it is lying to oneself thinking that one has some moral imperative to dictate what is being earned and what is not. The sheer self-righteous arrogance of some people is absolutely astounding.</blockquote>/agree_and_then_someTaking it a step further than just the the 'alts' that get equipped and didn't 'earn' gear, there often are -a lot- of primary play/main characters that don't 'earn' their gear in my mmo raiding experience beyond being warm bodies. Often it's a core of people that 'make or break' a raid and a raiding guild, and everyone else is along for the ride, trying not to completely destroy the opportunity the core gives them. Not to be a jerk, but for a fact, that is my experience, and my opinion. Somehow, all the 'wins' go to a collective head, and they suddenly think they are somebody who knows something special. But I digress, this isn't about who has skill and who doesn't, it is about what consistutes, 'earning' in game items and I guess prestige.

SiegaPlays

11-21-2011, 05:26 PM

<cite>WanyenII wrote:</cite><blockquote>Often it's a core of people that 'make or break' a raid and a raiding guild, and everyone else is along for the ride, trying not to completely destroy the opportunity the core gives them. Not to be a jerk, but for a fact, that is my experience, and my opinion. </blockquote>Was like that in EQ1, WoW and Rift too. While the people outside the core was not totally inept, they were bodies that could easilly be replaced. Never did raid in EQ2, so I'll take your word on it.

WanyenII

11-21-2011, 05:32 PM

Since I am firing across the bow anyway, does the same logic used in applying the 'earned' in game items apply when a player decides they are done using a character and transfers for free to The Bazaar to Vox, or potentially uses an unapproved third party brokerage, to trade their virtual 'earnings' into some parting RL gifts, most typically greenbacks? How long has this practice been active, and yet I rarely hear a squeek complaing of that privelege...I'm certainly not complaining about this, merely illustrating where the aforementioned 'logic' is getting a 'slap to the face' by reality.

Gaealiege

11-22-2011, 01:49 AM

Yeah, again Nrgy you're using the all platinum is tainted by the minor portion of the playerbase buying it with SC. That's poor logic. I don't promote buying platinum for SC or SC for platinum. And Wanyen, I felt about selling characters the exact way I feel about the current pay to win scheme. I abhorred it. At least in the high end we could immediately identify the rabble and barr their entrance. Hurray for applications and initiation raiding.I also find the irony of your statement quite humorous Dagg. I'm the bum while you can't manage to put effort into a game and are fine with buying rewards.And yes it is a slippery slope Weather man. Again we were already told (I can't imagine how often I have to type this before it gets through) that we will not have gameplay affecting ANYTHING on the marketplace. If we didn't slip into this current state then which verb would you prefer? Lubed?

Daggster

11-22-2011, 03:11 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also find the irony of your statement quite humorous Dagg. I'm the bum while you can't manage to put effort into a game and are fine with buying rewards.</blockquote>"Effort into a game"? What exactly is that? If you can call anything in this game effort, you're in for some nasty surprises later in your life..."manage to put effort into a game"? That's the thing, I can't think of anything, that I could consider effort in the game. Playing for 8 hours doing whatever? Running instances, raiding, leveling alts, questing, powerleveling alts, whatever, effortlesly having fun (with the exception of TS/tinkering etc which is effortlessly getting bored) with my spare time (although I very rarely, almost never, have 8 hours in a row). I mean really, if you can call anything of that effort, you're truly living a lazy life...

Mermut

11-22-2011, 03:28 AM

Just because something is a game doesn't mean people can't 'put effort into it'. Sport are games, people put effort into that to improve and do better. Anything that involves or can involve skill has room for effort, work or play.

Daggster

11-22-2011, 03:30 AM

It's not because it's a game, it's because it's so easy. :pBut oh well, just because everything I've done in the game (leveling, raiding, leveling TS, transmuting, adorning, tinkering etc etc, getting geared, fully mastered, gathered some plat) has been so effortless, that I just can't fathom how anybody could call it effort. That's the real reason. Yes, it has required some time, but never has it felt like an effort to me.Edit: Some things are tedious ofc, but to me that isn't synonymous with effort.

WanyenII

11-22-2011, 05:44 AM

<cite>Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, again Nrgy you're using the all platinum is tainted by the minor portion of the playerbase buying it with SC. That's poor logic. I don't promote buying platinum for SC or SC for platinum. And Wanyen, I felt about selling characters the exact way I feel about the current pay to win scheme. I abhorred it. At least in the high end we could immediately identify the rabble and barr their entrance. Hurray for applications and initiation raiding.I also find the irony of your statement quite humorous Dagg. I'm the bum while you can't manage to put effort into a game and are fine with buying rewards.And yes it is a slippery slope Weather man. Again we were already told (I can't imagine how often I have to type this before it gets through) that we will not have gameplay affecting ANYTHING on the marketplace. If we didn't slip into this current state then which verb would you prefer? Lubed?</blockquote>Huh? It's not just naked toons that are sold on LG or other sites; instead there are often geared out toons, or more specifically mostly geared out ex-raiders that fill the listings. Who would buy some gimpy toon they can, and probably already have built completely on their own? Maybe that happens occassionally, but I doubt geared out toon sales are eclipsed by gimpy, 'scrub' toons.There is no 'filtering' in anyone's app process to weed out future, unplanned decisions to leave and take whatever ya can get attitude that finds its way into various guild members. I call bull if you claim not one case where someone you have ever been associated with regularly as a raider has pulled the rug out and left, suddenly, with specific plans of never returning. And days later, the toon shows up on LG; or someone from the guild 'takes over' the account. It is either that, are you are really new or niave. At best, an app process might help a group sidestep a hobby farmer who only wants to use your guild for access.. but that is not the vast majority of selling that has happened or is happening..Certainly, most guilds don't want the stigma of people knowing that a few, some, or many people from their guild do that sort of thing, as it sort of taints the whole process and their image, but it freaking happens. Sometimes very subtlely, sometimes quite overtly. The decorum doesnt really change the issue though. It happens however ya might justify, rationalize, or excuse it.For the record, you'll never see my toons from this game or any other on those sites. Why? Sentimental value for one. I have done this far too long to let me characters disappear to someone elses hands for the pittance anyone else would offer for the raw 'value' of the characters...Also as a note of curiousity, a rather prolific figure made a rather prolific 'midnight hour' posting to LG apparently.. I presume record setting.