Co-op strike on test. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Netty

11-02-2011, 09:15 PM

Im glad that you are atleast doing something with it so dont get me wrong. But wouldent it be better if you just increas the damage output from the main mob with a %ish with every add you have on you tanking the main mob?. This way you could make the game alot more fun for the aoe tanks aswell, since you could increas the add numbers you get on mobs. And this would balance out very nice. 20%ish with ever add or something like that. Since then you would get the bad effect but it wouldent kill the tank if he got one of the adds on the MT but you would pref it to go with the OT. Since this would effect Aoes from the main mob aswell.This way aoe tanks would feel abit more usefull aswell. Since atm you might aswell use 2 ST tanks. Change it this way and add more adds to the fights and you would give the aoe tanks a role aswell and you wouldent have to balance the tanks vs ST. I know this might not be something that will change current raids but still a nice idea imo. All happy and aoe tanks getting something they are good at aswell on raids.

Fitz

11-03-2011, 01:33 PM

I'm not quite sure how removing the skill component to handle adds rapidly would make it more fun. Easier? Sure. More fun? Dunno.

Netty

11-03-2011, 01:47 PM

Since many classes are built as Aoe classes and raid cont is lacking this. This would make it alot more fun for them. Atm aoe tanks have nothing to shine with and stuff like this would make up for it. And as i said easier? well in a way but if you look at how Co-op strike work atm its just stupid. A damage increas of 20% with every add that hate the same tank as the main named would bring up the aoes from the named even more. So i still dont see it as to easy. Since 20% on normal inc damage on the tank can be fine. But 20% on a aoe can wipe the raid if its a hard hitting one. So it still wouldent be to easy. Co-op strike as it work atm on live with memwiping adds and so on are a freaking pain. Since you never know when they are about to hit. As a guardian its not to bad as i can stoneskin myself right befor the adds do spawn. But how many tanks atm have stuff to survive like that?Thats why something like this would be nice if it was added. Since then the aoe tanks dont need to be balanced to have stone skins to survive those huge hits. some maybe but not to many. And im not sure about you but i love aoe myself always has and always will. And i bet you it would be the same for many other aoe classes. So yes plain and simple this would be more fun.

Fitz

11-03-2011, 01:53 PM

I know what you're saying, but it would remove a large skill component, as I said. Right now, two off tanks are generally needed to respond to adds on some fights, each tank requiring two healers. If adds just made the mob hit 20% harder, not only would you need one or two fewer tanks, but also fewer healers, equating to an easier encounter. The main tank could hold all adds, while everyone burns them. Three healers in his group and voila, encounter trivial.

Netty

11-03-2011, 02:02 PM

As i said sometimes you get unlucky with the way it works atm. And that has nothing to do with skills. Its just stupid. Aye on some easier named you probly would be able to have the MT only on the both adds and named. However if you read every thing i said. I said that they should bring in even more adds. So its not only 1-2 adds on the fight. say that you have 6 adds on a fight 6'20% = 120% increas to the main mobs aoe. That would hurt alot for the rest of the raid even if you put 3 healers in the MT group. When im on my zerk OTing say the adds on Kolskeggr i rarly dont want to use my aoes with hate posision. Since then i might get the named aswell and bam. Since you cant controll the memwipe from the adds or the named. You never know how much hate you have. And since the adds sometimes memwipe to the MT he can die from just that. And thats not skill its just stupid.

Miapa

11-03-2011, 02:07 PM

Coop strike should not kill a warded tank instantly. The way that agro and hate work cannot justify this insta-kill. I think the changes are one good possibility for this annoying 'feature'.I also have some other options that I think will be viable (as singular options):- If a tank gets the coop strike debuff, then all incomming damage is increased by a percentage, such as 5%, for each hit that they take (stacking). This will prevent a tank from tanking multiple mobs for more than a few hits. The debuff can last somewhere around 10s.- If the tank gets x amount of triggers in y seconds, then they lose 150% of their HP (one-shot). So, for example, if the tank gets 8 coop strike triggers in 15s or something, then they die. This can be adjusted between EM and HM encounters differently where EM has a higher trigger requirement.

Fitz

11-03-2011, 02:33 PM

I do agree with the stupidity of the memwipe combo, that's quite ridiculous right now. I think I like Xivian's idea slightly more, although I think it should be permanent on the tank. As in each co-op strike on the tank increases all damage on him for 5%, for the rest of the encounter. It would make losing aggro an issue, but less a total fail condition. The percentage should depend on how often co-op triggers. My two cents. I like the idea of having to segregate and control hate, but when it becomes absurdly chaotic then it's irritating.

Netty

11-03-2011, 02:44 PM

I liked his idea aswell all tho making it as you said there would only make the gap on the fighters even bigger.... Im not sure why you want it to be like that.

Felshades

11-03-2011, 03:13 PM

I just think its annoying that most of the time(zerkers, crusaders come to mind since our tanks are paladin/sk/zerker) that adds come and then are instantly glued to the MT and then the MT is dead due to co-op strike because of Trample, AE auto attack, Holy Ground, a RNG timed Grave Sacrament, etc. and the other tank can't pull it off.Even Rescue seems iffy. It SHOULD pull off another player immediately. That's what it was originally intended to do. Pull off immediately. It doesn't half the time. :/

Banditman

11-03-2011, 03:30 PM

Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.

Yimway

11-03-2011, 04:26 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.</blockquote>5 Seconds no hostile / no beneficial and -4000 to all mitigation.But no point in feedbacking further, once it hits test the decision is final and its what is going live (even if its broken).

Gaealiege

11-03-2011, 05:49 PM

I just shorten that up by calling it SOE'd, Atan.

Bruener

11-03-2011, 08:54 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.</blockquote>5 Seconds no hostile / no beneficial and -4000 to all mitigation.But no point in feedbacking further, once it hits test the decision is final and its what is going live (even if its broken).</blockquote>No thanks. Sit there and be more useless and literally watch your raid wipe? At least with the new mechanic there is more of a chance to help recover and use some abilities.TBH get rid of the mechanic all together because it did not accomplish its intended purpose at all. Guilds use the least amount of Fighters still and usually roll with just 3 Fighters....there is less reason in DoV to bring more Fighters than there was in SF because of how they nerfed them into oblivion in relation to other classes.Stop caving to jealous DPS classes that couldn't perform their roll to the best of the abilities due to player skill. Stop creating dumb mechanics that just keep making a Fighters job more and more annoying and simply level the DPS field better.

Netty

11-03-2011, 10:06 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.</blockquote>5 Seconds no hostile / no beneficial and -4000 to all mitigation.But no point in feedbacking further, once it hits test the decision is final and its what is going live (even if its broken).</blockquote>Thats one of the worst ideas i have heard so far. Why not just keep as it is live then? since that would do kinda much the same.I still like the idea better of just increasing the damage of the main mob with every add on it. And increas the add numbers on most fights. Since then its still abit risky. You would fix the unbalanced stuff for the tank classes atm. And get rid of the silly random death factor du to memwipes.Im thats something to aim for since we need more aoe fights in raids... Not many fights at all have it atm sadly... And that abit boring when you play a aoe tank. Since you do shine more on aoe cont.All tho i agree this will get ignored as kinda much everything players post for some reason... I guess we should be glad it got abit better with the Co-op strike....Not much but better.

Banditman

11-04-2011, 10:04 AM

No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter. It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage. This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives. This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike. Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less. Awesome.

Yimway

11-04-2011, 11:53 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter. It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage. This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives. This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike. Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less. Awesome.</blockquote>Bingo.The previous two posters I don't think really understand the difference between live, test and what I proposed.Rather than being dead, the MT is in timeout until the OT and the raid can do their job. If it takes them too long to do their job things will go very bad.The 50% focus damage for 8 seconds in most applications is still going to mean a death anyway, just not as immediate as it is currently on live.

Bruener

11-04-2011, 12:32 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter. It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage. This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives. This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike. Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less. Awesome.</blockquote>Bingo.The previous two posters I don't think really understand the difference between live, test and what I proposed.Rather than being dead, the MT is in timeout until the OT and the raid can do their job. If it takes them too long to do their job things will go very bad.The 50% focus damage for 8 seconds in most applications is still going to mean a death anyway, just not as immediate as it is currently on live.</blockquote>I guess it depends on why you think they are making the change.From what I know the biggest complaint from a lot of people I know on the mechanic is that when stuff hits the fan other tanks are completely useless for any type of recovery on Fights that have adds despite burning big saves to get it done. The "stun" or inability to do anything is even worse because it means you can't actually use those big saves for their intended use.Will tanks still die under the new mechanic some, well yeah. Will they die all the time, definitely not. Every fighter out there has tools that they can use under that situation to go a long ways to keeping them alive in that type of situation.I am not completely happy with the new change. As I said I think the mechanic should be removed completely. Its just one more mechanic on a huge stack of changes that keep coming that just hurt Fighter game-play....and once again specifically AE tanking. Time to start making AE named encounters again where it is more beneficial to use those other Fighters.

Netty

11-04-2011, 12:40 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter. It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage. This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives. This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike. Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less. Awesome.</blockquote>He type no beneficial spells. I take that as heals do no aply to the tank when the buff is up. Im not complaining of your idea with just the stun. But if you cant heal the tank it would be the same as it is now on live. Thats how i read hes post anyway.

Netty

11-04-2011, 12:43 PM

Geothe

11-04-2011, 01:03 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter. It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage. This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives. This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike. Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less. Awesome.</blockquote>He type no beneficial spells. I take that as heals do no aply to the tank when the buff is up. Im not complaining of your idea with just the stun. But if you cant heal the tank it would be the same as it is now on live. Thats how i read hes post anyway.</blockquote>No benefitial spells meaning that the tank is in an ability lockdown... he cant cast a save on himself or anything while under the effect, not that he cant be healed. Several AEs in raids already have similar conditions, although more commonly it is "no hostile actions" as the limiter.

Netty

11-04-2011, 01:07 PM

<cite>removed DB post..</cite>

Netty

11-04-2011, 01:08 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter. It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage. This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives. This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike. Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less. Awesome.</blockquote>He type no beneficial spells. I take that as heals do no aply to the tank when the buff is up. Im not complaining of your idea with just the stun. But if you cant heal the tank it would be the same as it is now on live. Thats how i read hes post anyway.</blockquote>No benefitial spells meaning that the tank is in an ability lockdown... he cant cast a save on himself or anything while under the effect, not that he cant be healed. Several AEs in raids already have similar conditions, although more commonly it is "no hostile actions" as the limiter.</blockquote>Ah. Well you cant use anything anyway since you are stunned. Thats why i dident understand what he ment. Im not sure if brawlers have something they can cast when stunned but none of the warriors can. Only the taunt kinda much. So im not sure why he added that. Still dont like the idea so.

Trynt

11-04-2011, 01:45 PM

Stuns are easily counterable via several different means, so it's not the same thing at all - which is probably why he added that.

Yimway

11-04-2011, 01:55 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Will tanks still die under the new mechanic some, well yeah. Will they die all the time, definitely not. Every fighter out there has tools that they can use under that situation to go a long ways to keeping them alive in that type of situation.</blockquote>I think tanks will mostly die anyway under these situations. Do tanks have the ability to go 8 seconds with every hit doing 50% focus damage that bypasses wards/reactives? Yes technicaly some do.Are atleast 50% of those abilities already on cool down from dealing with the rest of the script when a coop strike hits? Almost all the time.I think in practice, most of the time coop will still mean a death, just not immediate this time.

Yimway

11-04-2011, 02:00 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stuns are easily counterable via several different means, so it's not the same thing at all - which is probably why he added that.</blockquote>Correct stun/stiffle is too easily countered while the no hostile / no beneficial effect locks you down to autoattack only and there is nothing that can be done to counter it.As others mentioned it does nothing to prevent you from being healed, you just aren't going to tank for terribly long completely locked down with an additional 4k mit debuff running. This forces the raid to still carry OTs and for them to do thier job, the presumable intent of the orriginal coop ability.The proposed change on test is going to give you 50% focus damage that bypasses wards/reactives each time you are struck by a mob. Given you get the effect on you when more than one mob is hitting you, the chances of having enough saves up durring one of these challenge fights to survive the number of 50% hp strikes is very low. I think Bandit and I are argueing the change to coop strike wasn't really the right change. Now if that is closer to 30% focus than it is 50%, maybe it is. The real issue is this wont actually be tested till production, so yay team.

Netty

11-04-2011, 03:33 PM

My idea was to help the aoe tanks to OT abit better. I couldent care less if the MT got stunned since the problem on some mobs atm that we cant use out best aoe tool since we get a Co-op strike. When im tanking on my guard its alot easier to prevent Co-op strike as i tend to use stone skin when adds are about to spawn. So even if i get one i can survive This isent the real deal for most of the tank classes tho. I have atm changed back to my zerk as our monk have started MTing. Just since i find the zerk more fun. But its a pain that i can use my tools on him since i would die since a stupid Ab.... Even if they did change it to a stun... OT grabs aggro. get stunned... adds go lose and goes to MT... i mean... Its a bad idea. AT least with the %ish increas on the main mobs damage you still can use those and the MT can snap them back after using something like that. And really thats something to aim for...I do agree with bruener 100% on some things. We need more aoe enc in this game... We can have like befor so change fights into something inline with Alot of adds the aoe tanks would play a bigger part aswell no? If not then you have to balance every tank class to be able to MT ST mobs and the rest... Add more aoe is a better idea since then it would be abit more diff really.

Netty

11-04-2011, 04:15 PM

Infact. Adding more adds in fights and more fights like Gynok and so on would help the game in many way. Not just tanking. I mean lock vs wiz this means you dont have to balance to two on st to make kinda much the same dps. And kinda much the same for the other aoe classes and ST dps classes. You could just balance them aoe vs aoe and st vs st. And thats would save time. And im not saying every enc should have loads of adds on them. But alot more than it is now would make it alot more balanced and fun for aoe and ST classes. Assassin more ST dps ranger more aoe and so on. They can still make the fights special and fun in many ways. Im not sure of the rest of you but i loved Gynok myself. (not at the start befor you had the CM...) But still is a nice fights. Overking is another of the best raid mobs ever made. There are so many ways you can make the fights fun for all classes even if it has alot of aoe in them.

Banditman

11-04-2011, 05:17 PM

Listen, you guys who are arguing against this are arguing against it for all the wrong reasons. You are saying that you can't use your abilities . . . that's not SOE's problem, nor is it Coop Strikes problem. That's a player problem.Let's say I am OTing with the new Coop Strike as I described it. Adds spawn, I crack off Grave Sacrament. Yes, I am going to get all the adds, and probably the name too. Guess what . . . that's ok. Yes, I'm going to get Coop'ed. Yes, I'm going to be stunned . . . but only until the MT grabs aggro back on the named. After that? I'm tanking all the adds, the MT has the name and we all go about our business. Nobody had to die to accomplish the goal of forcing more than one tank to deal with the situation. In fact, if I am being careful as an OT, if I am situationally aware, I know that I don't want to be in the 2 or 3 hate slot. I want to be a little further down. Thus, when I crack off Grave Sacrament, I jump up to 2 or 3, but not to 1. In this case, I've played intelligently, skillfully and I have picked up the adds with no Coop Strike on anyone.Further down the line, I am OT'ing these adds, and for whatever reason, the MT dies. The name is now running willy nilly all over the raid. I rescue the name, and am stunned in short order. Once again, that's ok. I have all the mobs, and so long as nobody does anything remarkably stupid, I can hang on to that name for a few seconds until the MT gets back up. Sure, the DPS has to be careful, and, heaven forbid, learn to control themselves, but a disciplined raid force can now survive.That to me is a good result. Incompetent raids still wipe to Coop. Disciplined raids understand and are able to work through an unfortunate event.Some of the most exciting and fun pulls are the ones where everything *doesn't* go exactly as planned and through good awareness, intelligent play and patience a group or raid is able to overcome these events. Right now, Coop Strike prevents the "miracle" comeback. That to me is a shame.

Gungo

11-04-2011, 05:39 PM

The current change is better then live and personally i agree with bruener i do not like en excessive amount of stun abilities that make me unable to play my character.Another idea for COOP strike is a debuff placed on the tank that reduces healing received by 75% for 5 seconds. This can also mean the tanks death just as easily as a 50% focus damage hit.

Netty

11-04-2011, 05:52 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Listen, you guys who are arguing against this are arguing against it for all the wrong reasons. You are saying that you can't use your abilities . . . that's not SOE's problem, nor is it Coop Strikes problem. That's a player problem.Let's say I am OTing with the new Coop Strike as I described it. Adds spawn, I crack off Grave Sacrament. Yes, I am going to get all the adds, and probably the name too. Guess what . . . that's ok. Yes, I'm going to get Coop'ed. Yes, I'm going to be stunned . . . but only until the MT grabs aggro back on the named. After that? I'm tanking all the adds, the MT has the name and we all go about our business. Nobody had to die to accomplish the goal of forcing more than one tank to deal with the situation. In fact, if I am being careful as an OT, if I am situationally aware, I know that I don't want to be in the 2 or 3 hate slot. I want to be a little further down. Thus, when I crack off Grave Sacrament, I jump up to 2 or 3, but not to 1. In this case, I've played intelligently, skillfully and I have picked up the adds with no Coop Strike on anyone.Further down the line, I am OT'ing these adds, and for whatever reason, the MT dies. The name is now running willy nilly all over the raid. I rescue the name, and am stunned in short order. Once again, that's ok. I have all the mobs, and so long as nobody does anything remarkably stupid, I can hang on to that name for a few seconds until the MT gets back up. Sure, the DPS has to be careful, and, heaven forbid, learn to control themselves, but a disciplined raid force can now survive.That to me is a good result. Incompetent raids still wipe to Coop. Disciplined raids understand and are able to work through an unfortunate event.Some of the most exciting and fun pulls are the ones where everything *doesn't* go exactly as planned and through good awareness, intelligent play and patience a group or raid is able to overcome these events. Right now, Coop Strike prevents the "miracle" comeback. That to me is a shame.</blockquote>So as it work atm on live im a bad player for not using gibe? and if i do and die im a bad player for that? Since clerly thats my problem and not bad design ? I call that bs. If you get a stun and cant do anything the adds wont stay on you for long. So everytime you are about to take the adds you say ok guys stop dps pls? I mean really? We work around the Co-op strike atm and are killing mobs with it. But sometimes you just get unlucky since thats kinda much what it is luck. Sure even if the MT goes down you could pick him up most of the time and still kill the named. But should it have to be like that? No its just screwed up.Im sorry i dont think Co-op strike is fun at all and as bruener said its another stupid thing that makes tanking frustrating. I dont mind challange at all but Co-op strike atm is just stupid.

Yimway

11-04-2011, 06:21 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Listen, you guys who are arguing against this are arguing against it for all the wrong reasons. You are saying that you can't use your abilities . . . that's not SOE's problem, nor is it Coop Strikes problem. That's a player problem.Let's say I am OTing with the new Coop Strike as I described it. Adds spawn, I crack off Grave Sacrament. Yes, I am going to get all the adds, and probably the name too. Guess what . . . that's ok. Yes, I'm going to get Coop'ed. Yes, I'm going to be stunned . . . but only until the MT grabs aggro back on the named. After that? I'm tanking all the adds, the MT has the name and we all go about our business. Nobody had to die to accomplish the goal of forcing more than one tank to deal with the situation. In fact, if I am being careful as an OT, if I am situationally aware, I know that I don't want to be in the 2 or 3 hate slot. I want to be a little further down. Thus, when I crack off Grave Sacrament, I jump up to 2 or 3, but not to 1. In this case, I've played intelligently, skillfully and I have picked up the adds with no Coop Strike on anyone.Further down the line, I am OT'ing these adds, and for whatever reason, the MT dies. The name is now running willy nilly all over the raid. I rescue the name, and am stunned in short order. Once again, that's ok. I have all the mobs, and so long as nobody does anything remarkably stupid, I can hang on to that name for a few seconds until the MT gets back up. Sure, the DPS has to be careful, and, heaven forbid, learn to control themselves, but a disciplined raid force can now survive.That to me is a good result. Incompetent raids still wipe to Coop. Disciplined raids understand and are able to work through an unfortunate event.Some of the most exciting and fun pulls are the ones where everything *doesn't* go exactly as planned and through good awareness, intelligent play and patience a group or raid is able to overcome these events. Right now, Coop Strike prevents the "miracle" comeback. That to me is a shame.</blockquote>So as it work atm on live im a bad player for not using gibe? and if i do and die im a bad player for that? Since clerly thats my problem and not bad design ? I call that bs. If you get a stun and cant do anything the adds wont stay on you for long. So everytime you are about to take the adds you say ok guys stop dps pls? I mean really? We work around the Co-op strike atm and are killing mobs with it. But sometimes you just get unlucky since thats kinda much what it is luck. Sure even if the MT goes down you could pick him up most of the time and still kill the named. But should it have to be like that? No its just screwed up.Im sorry i dont think Co-op strike is fun at all and as bruener said its another stupid thing that makes tanking frustrating. I dont mind challange at all but Co-op strike atm is just stupid.</blockquote>But its not going away, and shaping it as Bandit and I are describing actually enables tanks to use more stuff and be more effective. Sure, It would be awesome if we just got rid of it completely, and we could carry less tanks on our roster, but I don't think that is the result we're going to get from SoE.

Netty

11-04-2011, 06:38 PM

AOr as i said with the damage increas on the named and more adds... Doing it your way you only need 2 tanks. More adds that memwipe but dont cripple the tank you still might want to use 3. And it would bring balance with the tanks aswell. You can say all you want that some %ish damage increas arnt gona do much but as i have stated the aoes will kinda much kill the raid if to many adds are on the MT.When you cripple the OT if he use gibe or GS HG or what ever you will only make it even worse... This way it could be done and still dont effect the fun to much. As i said i dont like that idea you having and you might not like my idea. But i still think my idea is better for all around balance. And will still make ppl bring 3 tanks.

Bruener

11-04-2011, 07:18 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Listen, you guys who are arguing against this are arguing against it for all the wrong reasons. You are saying that you can't use your abilities . . . that's not SOE's problem, nor is it Coop Strikes problem. That's a player problem.Let's say I am OTing with the new Coop Strike as I described it. Adds spawn, I crack off Grave Sacrament. Yes, I am going to get all the adds, and probably the name too. Guess what . . . that's ok. Yes, I'm going to get Coop'ed. Yes, I'm going to be stunned . . . but only until the MT grabs aggro back on the named. After that? I'm tanking all the adds, the MT has the name and we all go about our business. Nobody had to die to accomplish the goal of forcing more than one tank to deal with the situation. In fact, if I am being careful as an OT, if I am situationally aware, I know that I don't want to be in the 2 or 3 hate slot. I want to be a little further down. Thus, when I crack off Grave Sacrament, I jump up to 2 or 3, but not to 1. In this case, I've played intelligently, skillfully and I have picked up the adds with no Coop Strike on anyone.Further down the line, I am OT'ing these adds, and for whatever reason, the MT dies. The name is now running willy nilly all over the raid. I rescue the name, and am stunned in short order. Once again, that's ok. I have all the mobs, and so long as nobody does anything remarkably stupid, I can hang on to that name for a few seconds until the MT gets back up. Sure, the DPS has to be careful, and, heaven forbid, learn to control themselves, but a disciplined raid force can now survive.That to me is a good result. Incompetent raids still wipe to Coop. Disciplined raids understand and are able to work through an unfortunate event.Some of the most exciting and fun pulls are the ones where everything *doesn't* go exactly as planned and through good awareness, intelligent play and patience a group or raid is able to overcome these events. Right now, Coop Strike prevents the "miracle" comeback. That to me is a shame.</blockquote>So as it work atm on live im a bad player for not using gibe? and if i do and die im a bad player for that? Since clerly thats my problem and not bad design ? I call that bs. If you get a stun and cant do anything the adds wont stay on you for long. So everytime you are about to take the adds you say ok guys stop dps pls? I mean really? We work around the Co-op strike atm and are killing mobs with it. But sometimes you just get unlucky since thats kinda much what it is luck. Sure even if the MT goes down you could pick him up most of the time and still kill the named. But should it have to be like that? No its just screwed up.Im sorry i dont think Co-op strike is fun at all and as bruener said its another stupid thing that makes tanking frustrating. I dont mind challange at all but Co-op strike atm is just stupid.</blockquote>But its not going away, and shaping it as Bandit and I are describing actually enables tanks to use more stuff and be more effective. Sure, It would be awesome if we just got rid of it completely, and we could carry less tanks on our roster, but I don't think that is the result we're going to get from SoE.</blockquote>Fighter spots wasn't a problem when they could actually do their job without asinine mechanics trying to keep them from doing it...and allowing them to actually have decent DPS. We ran more active Fighters on our roster in SF because they weren't so lame.In DoV its precisely all about bringing the absolute minimum amount of Fighters because of how little they bring. Bring in said designated alt on the couple of Fights you might actually want an extra one.They really need to fix the all around play of Fighters and than get rid of lame mechanics like Coop and Strikethrough. No other classes take as much of a shaft in this game.

therealnakorox

11-05-2011, 03:24 PM

Let me preface this by saying I only have one tank as an alt and I rarely play him, so please be gentle if this is a stupid question...Do ST tanks have anyway to make their target immune to AoE's? It seems a simple ability like that would allow the OT's to grab aggro from multiple adds without pulling the MT's target.

Yimway

11-07-2011, 04:29 PM

<cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do ST tanks have anyway to make their target immune to AoE's? It seems a simple ability like that would allow the OT's to grab aggro from multiple adds without pulling the MT's target.</blockquote>Nothing like this exists in this game.

Fitz

11-08-2011, 04:02 PM

I agree with Bandit's idea; it makes more sense than scaling damage. It should take some skill to hold adds, even if it's obnoxious, which it is. Bruener, if anything tanks are exactly where they should be in dps, with sk's sitting probably too high. Tanks are only lacking in hate, and there are many ways that could be adjusted without increasing dps. ...I always think it's silly to hear non-dps classes complain about but not being on the parse (see 14 pages of the dirge thread). If fighters parsed spectacularly, then why have t2 dps classes? /sigh

Banditman

11-08-2011, 04:24 PM

Indeed, why bring any DPS at all? It would be much safer to simply bring all Fighters, have them all stand in front of the mob and just heal whoever has aggro.Tanks are *always* going to be under-represented in raids. Fully 25% of the available classes are tank classes. There is no way under the sun you'll ever bring six tanks to a raid.Coop Strike is a rage inducing mechanic, no arguement. However, it's absolutely crystal clear to me that it isn't going away. Since it isn't, I'm hoping we can at least convince a shift in the punishment mechanism to reduce it to annoying. Yes, it will be annoying to be stunned, but, you won't have 24 people all raging about a wipe because an OT missed one stupid add that may not have even rendered on his screen yet.Sure, the MT will be stunned, but, once everyone does their job, you won't have 24 people staring at a revive box. That to me is a far preferable situation.

Netty

11-08-2011, 05:52 PM

Im not sure how to say it but really. All you talk about that it should take skill to tanks adds. To be honest atm i would pref it to be done by a brawler since they have the most ST snap aggros atm. Since even if it was a stun the OT would get if used one of our aoe snaps. Its much easier to ST adds atm and snap them back once they memwipe and so on since you hardly want to use your special abilitys.As for tank dps. All classes should be able to parse plain and simple. I dont agree that there should only be like 20% diff in dps but it shouldent be as huge gap as it is atm. Its just silly and bad for the game. Kinda much like all classes should be able to parse well so should tanks.Dont come her and talk about it takes skills to tank adds as it is atm. The fact stands that the tank with the best ST snap aggro will win this hands down. And thats why Co-op strike should be something els than a stun. hell i even take a damage increas with every hit the add do on the tank having the named. so like one Co-op strike. Its just a stupid way of trying to make something harder.

Fitz

11-08-2011, 06:08 PM

I agree that brawlers have off tank capacity beyond warriors. I totally disagree that everyone should parse. If everyone is 20% off in the parse, just take all healers and a couple tanks. Their dps won't suffer much, but they'll never ever die. The capacity to take hits is specialized to fighters. Returning hits is specialized to dps. Being able to do both throws off balance, so get over it. You shouldn't parse high. Some fighters parse too high already. If you want to parse, roll a wizard.

Banditman

11-08-2011, 07:08 PM

It absolutely MUST be a huge gap, just as it is now or even more, or tanking will be completely trivial. Hate gain is already DOUBLING their DPS in terms of how much a mob hates them. Then they get transfers on top of that?If you make tanks even more beefy on the DPS front, why would anyone roll a DPS class? Why? There would be absolutely no reason. You'd simply grab a Paladin, make him the MT. You'd then drop a Brawler in his group, who the Pally would then put Amends on. Finally, the Brawler would put his Avoid on the Pally. Viola! You've got a well on nigh unstoppable tanking machine. The avoidance of a Brawler, the mitigation of a plate tank and DPS to boot!Right now, there is a pretty decent balance of classes in raids. Some would argue that healers and utility are over-represented, maybe so, but that's the game right now. Tanks are far better represented now than they have been in the past, and good for them. Drastic DPS improvements to tanks will lead quickly to a much heavier balance of tanks in raids than is really necessary or realistic.Once again, by increasing tank DPS, you are orchestrating the need for these other players right out of the raid. Tanks need to tank. DPS needs to DPS. It's really that simple, and it has been for quite some time.

Netty

11-08-2011, 07:38 PM

So say 50k more dps wont make ppl take a dps class? You are talking like ppl are saying tanks and t1 dps should be the same. Atm dps classes are parsing 100k+ more than tanks. Even more the higher up you get with gear and so on. And thats to much. All you talk about is that it takes skill and so on but the it doesent. Since we have hate gain you know. Just get your hate gain right and oh your holding aggro... Like it or not but its the best way for guilds to bring more fighters in. You guys are talking about surviveability from aoes and so on. When the fact still stands that some of the dps have crazy high surviveability vs stuff like that. Again no one is saying that fighters should be t1 dps and your idea of what will happen is nothing to worry about.

Fitz

11-10-2011, 03:06 PM

That's the point, they shouldn't dps high.Some tanks can already beat out more than half the raid in dps (see shadowknights), and they shouldn't be any higher. As a related tangent, increasing their dps would further make the soloing ability gap more massive. So absolutely stop trying to turn tanks into dps, and roll an assassin instead.

SacDaddy420

11-14-2011, 08:38 PM

you people talking about how there isnt any ae fights havent stepped one foot in a drunder x4, have you?

Bruener

11-14-2011, 09:38 PM

<cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>you people talking about how there isnt any ae fights havent stepped one foot in a drunder x4, have you?</blockquote>Please point out a true AE encounter like FG or Ykesha.Yes a lot of us have stepped into Drunder....and that is the issue. Anything that could be AE has Coop going on that an AE tank can't even shine on.Really though, people that don't understand the current tanking mechanics, and how terrible they are...really shouldn't question.EDIT: Sorry for snapping...this game has gotten beyond frustrating as a Fighter in DoV.

Netty

11-15-2011, 01:40 PM

SacDaddy420

11-15-2011, 08:16 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>you people talking about how there isnt any ae fights havent stepped one foot in a drunder x4, have you?</blockquote>Please point out a true AE encounter like FG or Ykesha.Yes a lot of us have stepped into Drunder....and that is the issue. Anything that could be AE has Coop going on that an AE tank can't even shine on.Really though, people that don't understand the current tanking mechanics, and how terrible they are...really shouldn't question.EDIT: Sorry for snapping...this game has gotten beyond frustrating as a Fighter in DoV.</blockquote>Obviously you havent gotten very far if you think anything in Ykesha's Inner Sanctum had more adds then either second name in vallons or tallons (Challenge). Lets not even mention that every single zone is nothing but 3+ encounters the whole way thru.So what exactly are you telling me I shouldnt question? Is it your situational awareness? Should I question why you think theres some reason you SHOULDNT open up with like grave sac when 15 triple ups spawn on your raid and you're all ~30 meters from the named? Should I question your ability to jump on the adds if they pop on the named and pull them back far enough before you hit some huge ae positional and grab the named like a fool? Should I question your MT if he's doing something other than just single targetting the main mob?Now I do understand being a tank is alot of responsibility and takes split second reactions. And some of your points are valid concerns. But from what Ive read from you specifically, you seem to want to make fighters some godmode class. I think thats rather silly.

Bruener

11-15-2011, 09:41 PM

2 encounters that are being complained about like crazy because of the coop on them? Really, thats all you can pull out. 3 mob encounters on TRASH that are linked and that provide no challenge at all. WOOT.I love situational awareness. Its why I play a tank and not some lazy DPS class that sits there and nukes and than complains when they actually have to think during a script. Yeah I do have a problem with trying to single out some add on a Fight when only a couple Fighter classes are given the tool to peel adds like that. I do have a problem with not having huge encounters that AE tanks shine on because of their ability to control large amounts of mobs at the same time...not the mechanics requiring more ST type tanks to get the job done easier.You do not understand how dumb of a mechanic Coop is, simply because YOU do not deal with it. Just go back to sitting back and worrying about the couple times in a script you might actually have to half way pay attention.Just more reasons the game is dying. Making Tanking a huge pain with crap mechanics that cripple the classes more than anybody else has to deal with is just another huge reason for people leaving.EDIT: Oh and to prove the point on how there is really junk in support of AE tanks like Crusaders and Zerkers please share with us what classes you are using to tank these supposed AE encounters you are running into....

SacDaddy420

11-16-2011, 08:08 PM

we use brawlers to hold main mobs. We use crusaders to round up and hold any adds. Which they do well. Next question.youre just whining cuz you want the devs to buff you. The new co-op strike on Live is easy mode, and from the looks of it this test one is even easier.Go ahead and tell me more about how I dont have to pay attention during raids tho. Im the guy thats gonna take your hate in raids over and over and make you look like an amatuer.you want ae's? How about on birdman and Gindan commander 12 linked adds that spawn every min or so? These have to be rounded up and killed befroe the next set or you'll get overrun. Are you telling me you cant handle this? Good to know in case we ever run across your app.

Crismorn

11-16-2011, 08:35 PM

<cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>we use brawlers to hold main mobs. We use crusaders to round up and hold any adds. Which they do well. Next question.youre just whining cuz you want the devs to buff you. The new co-op strike on Live is easy mode, and from the looks of it this test one is even easier.Go ahead and tell me more about how I dont have to pay attention during raids tho. Im the guy thats gonna take your hate in raids over and over and make you look like an amatuer.you want ae's? How about on birdman and Gindan commander 12 linked adds that spawn every min or so? These have to be rounded up and killed befroe the next set or you'll get overrun. Are you telling me you cant handle this? Good to know in case we ever run across your app.</blockquote>Look back on Bruener's post history shows thats exactly what hes trying to do.... AGAIN.He was one of the main supporters behind T. S.hadowknight O. when SK's required absolutely nothing beyond their current abilities which lead to SK's being rediculously OP'd for years simply because he and a few other were incapable of utilizing the tools at their disposal.You had your fun in the sun Bruener, SK's had a great 2+ years of being head and shoulders above every other class in eq2, now its the brawlers turn, my suggestion to you is either deal with it or continue to reroll classes so you can be average on an OP'd class or learn how to play this game and use the tools you have.