Whats the point of DYOD Dungeon if you cannot use your character in them?

[Talathion]

<p>Its absolutely stupid, theirs no point in adding new aa's or anything if you cannot even use your character to run the Zones.</p>

[Nijia]

<p>A new time sink put simply.</p><p>Mobs will drop pieces for building dungeons and also avatars you can play. That's what I remember from the Fan Fair vids feldon posted on eq2wire.</p><p>This is entirely directed at the house decorating and casual crowd.</p><p>Collecting and grinding will keep those players hooked in the game.</p><p>I'm not against the feature myself, but I don't expect talented house decorators to have the same skill set for making interesting encounters.</p><p>And to be quite blunt, I dont expect the DYOD to be good enough to make anything really interesting as an alternative to running built in dungeons.</p><p>But of course.. it's not out yet. Who knows it might turn out to be really cool! *drooling*</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Nijia@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A new time sink put simply.</p><p>Mobs will drop pieces for building dungeons and also avatars you can play. That's what I remember from the Fan Fair vids feldon posted on eq2wire.</p><p>This is entirely directed at the house decorating and casual crowd.</p><p>Collecting and grinding will keep those players hooked in the game.</p><p>I'm not against the feature myself, but I don't expect talented house decorators to have the same skill set for making interesting encounters.</p><p>And to be quite blunt, I dont expect the DYOD to be good enough to make anything really interesting as an alternative to running built in dungeons.</p><p>But of course.. it's not out yet. Who knows it might turn out to be really cool! *drooling*</p></blockquote><p>I'd rather not play this game then not be able to play Talathion.</p>

[Koleg]

<p>I almost responded to this thread and then I realized it was started by Talathion ... and thought better of it.</p>

[Irgun]

<p>Bet there will be 10 achievements for this, you get your dungeon rated like your homes and final title is "the Dungeon Keeper" - wanna bet?</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its absolutely stupid, theirs no point in adding new aa's or anything if you cannot even use your character to run the Zones.</p></blockquote><p>for once I agree with Talathion.</p><p>This is alot of 'to do' for a few roleplayers and house designers who want to make dungeons that will be ignored other than for some achievement unlocks.</p><p>It all smacks of the arena, ya know those zones / challenges you had to get avatars to do?  Yeah that went over well...</p><p>This DYOD is another 'arena lead balloon'.</p><p>Pretty sure this thread belongs in expansions and not 'in-testing'...</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>I am going to reserve judgement on this for now because it has some potential as a first step in the direction of player made content for something which, if done correctly, could be very interesting when it comes to the development speed of new content.</p><p>So if SOE is intending it as a first step to work out some kinks and refine the general process for player made content to lead to content creation for player toons and usable loot this could be a really good thing for the game.</p><p><div></div><div></div></p>

[Cocytus]

<p>I like that we will be able to play as "avatars".</p><p>However, it NEEDS to be an option, or this feature will not see its full potential.</p><p>Edit - option, as in we can play either ourselves or avatars. I will probably not use this very much if it's not an option.</p>

[Korhallen3]

<p>I know it's asking a lot of you, Tuor, but think critically for a moment: using avatars removes gear from the list of things player designers have to worry about when balancing their content. I know it'll make you a sad panda, having to rely solely on your own skill to get through one, but you know, that's just how it goes sometimes.</p>

[Valena]

<p>I have no interest in playing an "Avatar". I've spend months / years gearing up my characters and don't see why I can't use them. If I wanted to play another character then I'd beak out Diablo 2 or wait for 3 to launch.</p><p>Star Trek Online introduced their version of Dungeon Builder (the Foundary) months ago and they allow you to use your own characters. If a small studio like Cryptic can manage it then I'm sure that SOE could too .. if they wanted to.</p>

[Korhallen3]

<p>Then you're free to not use it. I, however, am looking forward to it, so, guess that's that.</p>

[Tyrus Dracofire]

<p>it just like building Neverwinter Nights when making dungeons and pick types of mobs. those are fun stuffs with both tools from Aurora and Obsidian studios, but never tried Elder scrolls mod builder, they are too complex to figure out or setting with tool.</p><p>Dragon Ages have those too, but it very restrictive and limited.</p>

[Lcneed]

<p>I think people would still run it to farm tokens to buy items for their real characters.</p>

[Kizee]

<p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think people would still run it to farm tokens to buy items for their real characters.</p></blockquote><p>Of course they will.... because SOE will put overpowered gear on vendor and force people to run them even though they don't want to.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>I want the option to use both my character and an avatar</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want the option to use both my character and an avatar</p></blockquote><p>^^^ you'll have it ... in the form of Mercs, duh!  <span style="font-size: xx-small;">(Oh, you meant you want to use your own toon in the DyOD, can avatar's even use the Dungeon Finder tool?)</span></p>

[Anestacia]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want the option to use both my character and an avatar</p></blockquote><p>We know!  You have said it a million times; everyone gets it.</p>

[Humayon]

<p>Concept behind DYOD is simple really.:</p><p>You see soe does not have the resources or man power to come up with new dungeons, just take a look at the drunder zones, so they are giving the paying customer to do the work for them. Just brilliant.</p>

[Velenda]

<p><cite>Korhallen3 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then you're free to not use it. I, however, am looking forward to it, so, guess that's that.</p></blockquote><p>I am as well, however i am slightly dissapointed that we can't use our own characters in the adventure. I have so many ideas for instaces and adventures but....I'd love to use my own toons.</p><p>You never know though, it might work out somehow.</p><p>Time will tell. ^_^</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>it's blatantly obvious why they aren't letting you use your 'real' character. becuase they don't want people like Talathion destorying it in 10 minutes becuase you know, that super uber bought raid gear.</p><p>these dungeons are NOT going to be Zek or Drunder difficulty. not even remotely close. you'll prolly be lucky to see things that are as difficult as ToFS.</p><p>and yes, there's going to be things to buy with tokens. so they are 'leveling' the playing field by giving people avatars that limits thier super procs and raid gear stats and effects and focuses.</p><p>which of course is one of the big reasons people are annoyed with it. I can't take my T3 raid geared toon into a dungeon designed by a player with mobs placed in it that are probably little more then speedbumps to said geared toon. it's not like they are giving the BoYD system the ability to design some super powerful EoW/Varsoon-ish type encounters to throw at you one after another that will crush those not geared.</p><p>the bulk of these is the dungeon layout, not super encounters I imagine. so you won't need that supped up gear, but they also don't want to give you some massive advantage against everyone else in farming tokens at least at first so they are limiting you to avatars.</p><p>don't like it, don't run them.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>It's a bit disappointing that we cannot use our player avatar's in the dungeons. But the fact that we can only use pet avatars or whatever we will use, ensures people that the challenge stays there.There won't be super impossible dungeons, or super easy dungeons due to some people having better gears and skills than others. This will give players the opportunity to use real life playing skills to master the dungeons instead of just boasting the best gear. Now it comes down more to how people design the dungeons, if they make them too hard people won't try them and if they are too easy, the dungeon makers won't be rewarded for anything if I understood reward vs difficulty right.I really look forward to these dungeons and to see what will be made from it. I know I will get hooked if it will become relatively easy to get groups for it.I think it's a good idea to only use pet avatars because it will provide more balance to them and avoid exploiting.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>And also ensures me that I will play a different game where I can use the toon I know and love and started with.</p><p>Built my characters AAs up and to a spec I like, leveled up and geared up... for nothing?</p><p>Heres an idea to wrap your head around.</p><p>Let me use "my" character, and if you can't use yours because its not strong enough to run, let "YOU" use an avatar.</p>

[Hathahrk]

<p>the best solution would be to make use of the algorythm used in the tso scalling instance</p><p>you create your dungeons for .. let's say players raid geared , and then it scales based on the stuff/level of the whole party running it .</p><p>you could use avatar or your char this way</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p><cite>Hathahrk@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the best solution would be to make use of the algorythm used in the tso scalling instance</p><p>you create your dungeons for .. let's say players raid geared , and then it scales based on the stuff/level of the whole party running it .</p><p>you could use avatar or your char this way</p></blockquote><p>True, but it would probably be very complicated to program, and might yield inaccurate results since everyone plays differently and have different stats.I was discouraged about that you can't use your normal avatar when I first heard about it, but this is probably best. You can still do normal dungeons with your normal avatar anyway, and there is not doubt they will keep adding those.Some people in this thread seem to treat this as the end of the normal dungeons. It will not be. It will be an additional feature.</p>

[Nijia]

<p>If we're going to play "avatars" then I would have preferred to see Player vs Monster, as a more engaging and fun alternative to PvP (for us non-PvPers). It didn't seem to take off in EQ 1 but it seems to be succesfull in LoTRO so it's probably down to implementation.</p><p>I would have been fare more interested in collecting / earning upgrades for my pvp "monster" and have a good change of pace from PvE... without swtiching to pvp altogether.</p>

[salty21db]

<p>Who's to say that the top rated dungeon every month will be reviewed by the devs and then put into the game later on or such?  Or contests wont be held to do the same?  Jumping to conclusions ftw.</p><p>Brilliant idea imo if it is used in that nature.  Getting the players to do the work for you and ultimately there will be a set group of people that can't complain about said dungeon as they voted for it.  I mean people set on here and in chat channels daily complaining about every little thing, every little detail, every little aspect of everything put into this game.  If the players are the ones putting it in and voting on it, well, gl complaining about it lol (although im sure the community will find a way).</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p>

[Valena]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it's blatantly obvious why they aren't letting you use your 'real' character. becuase they don't want people like Talathion destorying it in 10 minutes becuase you know, that super uber bought raid gear.</p><p>these dungeons are NOT going to be Zek or Drunder difficulty. not even remotely close. you'll prolly be lucky to see things that are as difficult as ToFS.</p><p>and yes, there's going to be things to buy with tokens. so they are 'leveling' the playing field by giving people avatars that limits thier super procs and raid gear stats and effects and focuses.</p><p>which of course is one of the big reasons people are annoyed with it. I can't take my T3 raid geared toon into a dungeon designed by a player with mobs placed in it that are probably little more then speedbumps to said geared toon. it's not like they are giving the BoYD system the ability to design some super powerful EoW/Varsoon-ish type encounters to throw at you one after another that will crush those not geared.</p><p>the bulk of these is the dungeon layout, not super encounters I imagine. so you won't need that supped up gear, but they also don't want to give you some massive advantage against everyone else in farming tokens at least at first so they are limiting you to avatars.</p><p>don't like it, don't run them.</p></blockquote><p>Wow you are a bitter person. Believe it or not, many of us get our own raid gear, it's not all bought, and quite frankly I'm getting a little tired of people like you who obviously resent those that do raid.</p><p>There is no reason why DYoD couldn't be aimed at raid geared people, the same was as we have different levels of dungeons now. Simply make the mobs Heroic, 1, 2 or 3^ and you have an appropriate difficulty level.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p>

[Wirewhisker]

<p><cite>Hissyfit@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think people would still run it to farm tokens to buy items for their real characters.</p></blockquote><p>Of course they will.... because SOE will put overpowered gear on vendor and force people to run them even though they don't want to.</p></blockquote><p>Geeeze, I wonder if they thought of the idea that multiple-account people will make a dungeon with one account, then run it with all knowledge of what's what on another account?</p><p>Nah, no player would ever be devious enough to think of doing that...right?</p>

[gourdon]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it's blatantly obvious why they aren't letting you use your 'real' character. becuase they don't want people like Talathion destorying it in 10 minutes becuase you know, that super uber bought raid gear.</p><p>these dungeons are NOT going to be Zek or Drunder difficulty. not even remotely close. you'll prolly be lucky to see things that are as difficult as ToFS.</p><p>and yes, there's going to be things to buy with tokens. so they are 'leveling' the playing field by giving people avatars that limits thier super procs and raid gear stats and effects and focuses.</p><p>which of course is one of the big reasons people are annoyed with it. I can't take my T3 raid geared toon into a dungeon designed by a player with mobs placed in it that are probably little more then speedbumps to said geared toon. it's not like they are giving the BoYD system the ability to design some super powerful EoW/Varsoon-ish type encounters to throw at you one after another that will crush those not geared.</p><p>the bulk of these is the dungeon layout, not super encounters I imagine. so you won't need that supped up gear, but they also don't want to give you some massive advantage against everyone else in farming tokens at least at first so they are limiting you to avatars.</p><p>don't like it, don't run them.</p></blockquote><p>The issue is they want player power to be predictable.  This could be addressed by letting players play their own character, but buffing everyone to a power level far above raid geared characters so there is no significant disparity.  Then you have players happily killing EPICx4 or more powerful mobs in a group of 6 on their favorite character.  It is a win-win solution to this problem.  However, I'm sure some raid geared players will still complain since they will have no gear adavantage.</p>

[Valena]

<p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><p>  However, I'm sure some raid geared players will still complain since they will have no gear adavantage.</p></blockquote><p>More Raider hate? Really?</p><p>Believe it or not Raiders appreciate challenge. Learning raid strategies is a challenge, executing them week in and week out is a challenge, getting 24 players to work together is a challenge. If we didn't like challenge then we'd all be doing EM raids every night rather than pushing progression.</p><p>Wanting DYOD to use player characters rather than avatars is nothing to do with not wanting challenge, it's about wanting to play the characters that we have spent years developing which is the entire point of an MMO rather than a single player game.</p>

[bluefish]

<p><cite>Hissyfit@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think people would still run it to farm tokens to buy items for their real characters.</p></blockquote><p>Of course they will.... because SOE will put overpowered gear on vendor and force people to run them even though they don't want to.</p></blockquote><p>Free Will</p><p>Everyone has a choice</p><p>no one can make you do anything you don't want to .. you "Choose" to do so on your own free will</p><p>there is only one thing you absolutely must do and that is die .. even then you can sometimes "choose" when to die</p><p>so please stop with the they "force" you to do things</p><p>it's their game for crying out loud .. you only pay for the right to play it .. you don't own it, or any items in it.</p><p>If you don't like it, then don't pay to play and don't play .. it's that simple</p><p>I never saw so many unhappy people that continue to pay for something, then complain about it</p><p>if you are dissatisfied with the game that much, just stop paying and move on.... good gosh</p>

[Kizee]

<p><cite>Teeboy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hissyfit@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think people would still run it to farm tokens to buy items for their real characters.</p></blockquote><p>Of course they will.... because SOE will put overpowered gear on vendor and force people to run them even though they don't want to.</p></blockquote><p>Free Will</p><p>Everyone has a choice</p><p>no one can make you do anything you don't want to .. you "Choose" to do so on your own free will</p><p>there is only one thing you absolutely must do and that is die .. even then you can sometimes "choose" when to die</p><p>so please stop with the they "force" you to do things</p><p>it's their game for crying out loud .. you only pay for the right to play it .. you don't own it, or any items in it.</p><p>If you don't like it, then don't pay to play and don't play .. it's that simple</p><p>I never saw so many unhappy people that continue to pay for something, then complain about it</p><p>if you are dissatisfied with the game that much, just stop paying and move on.... good gosh</p></blockquote><p>Yes, free will. That doesn't stop people from doing something they don't want to so they can have the best of the best stuff. Especially if they put gear in that is as good or better than raid gear.</p><p>Just look what happen when they introduced BG's with gear that you could use in PvP & PvP that was equal or better than heroic hear. People qued up for BG's and stood around and farmed tokens so they could get the good gear with minimal effort....it didn't mean they liked to do it.</p><p>As for the unhappy about the game and continuing to pay for it.... it has nothing to do with being unhappy.... the OP and many in this thread are telling SOE that this whole DYOD is pretty pointless if you can't use your main characters. All you have to do is look how well the arena does. lol</p><p>Hopefully SoE listens to the playerbase this time and it gets changed or it will flop just like dungeon finder did.</p>

[SisterTheresa]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p></blockquote><p>Is there a reason for you wanting to play as your toon?  (Outside the normal reasons)</p><p>Do you want to get easy exp, AA, and items by farming it out like you can do in CoX?  Because if so, I'm glad one can't do it.  But my opinion .. I hate easy buttons.</p>

[d1anaw]

<p><cite>Hissyfit@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think people would still run it to farm tokens to buy items for their real characters.</p></blockquote><p>Of course they will.... because SOE will put overpowered gear on vendor and force people to run them even though they don't want to.</p></blockquote><p>You are never "forced" to do anything here. If you CHOOSE to do so, you choose. YOUR choice.  So let me get this straight, you don't think that something you don't want to do should be available to those who do want to do it because then you'd feel "forced" to do it because you don't have the self control to say, nope, not interested, doesn't affect me so I don't care, right?</p>

[d1anaw]

<p><cite>Ridolain@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p></blockquote><p>Is there a reason for you wanting to play as your toon?  (Outside the normal reasons)</p><p>Do you want to get easy exp, AA, and items by farming it out like you can do in CoX?  Because if so, I'm glad one can't do it.  But my opinion .. I hate easy buttons.</p></blockquote><p>Why is it a good idea to decide that because you don't like something, you don't want to do it, no one should?</p>

[Mermut]

<p>I'd like to be able to use my own characters for a number of reasons1) I LIKE my characters, I know their arts and have spend time playing them2) The tiny number of CAs that have been available to every 'avatar' I've used in various quests (void shard solo shard quest, frostfell mcscroggle maze quest, etc) have made those much less enjoyable for me. I admit I've never tried the arena, there was no motivation for me. PvP, even at one remove isn't of interest to me.</p><p>3) I like to build and create. I've missed the toolset I used in NWN and I'd love some of that abilty with DYOD, but if people can't play their own characters, participation is likely  to be very very sparse... if people aren't going to use the 'content', it's going to be hard to keep the motivation to spend hours of time making interesting 'dungeons'.</p><p>I can understand that they'd like some sort of 'normalized' character ability to make populating the dungeon with non-trivial mobs easier. Buffing characters and/or gear (or even nerfing it all down to a certain power level) will still let players use their characters with all their known CAs and spells, etc.. without having the impossibilty of having one player created zone be doable by quested-gear toons and at least a speed bump for raid-rigged toons.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p></blockquote><p>Punishment? It seems more likely they dont want the content trivialized and are finding ways to correct mistakes which have gone uncorrected far too long. Max AA and level are not hte trivializing factors which are detrimental to the health of the game which has gone unchecked, overpowered raid gear being allowed in heroic zones is. For that matter maybe they should start by putting a check at the heroic instance doors which require a minimum number of people to be in group to zone in, say maybe 3-4 and then check like Estate of Unrest does that if the number of people in the zone does not stay within its acceptable range people get booted out or better, declare the zone trivialized like The Splitpaw raid does. Of course the whole zone rushes you then and kills you and you get locked out which is fun but it makes a clear point.</p><p>The fact SOE has let raid gear trivialize much of the heroic content for years now unchecked and it has been detrimental to the economy and the general health of the game is more the punishment to those not in raid gear.</p><p>I enjoy both play styles, I wish we had the capability to create various equipment sets on our person and storage of those sets was not a hinderance. It would, I think, be quite a bit of fun to compile the best sets of gear you could for solo/heroic and raid for each tier of play and have those sets activate based on the content you are playing so you could actually play the content as was intended at the time of design. </p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Ridolain@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p></blockquote><p>Is there a reason for you wanting to play as your toon?  (Outside the normal reasons)</p><p>Do you want to get easy exp, AA, and items by farming it out like you can do in CoX?  Because if so, I'm glad one can't do it.  But my opinion .. I hate easy buttons.</p></blockquote><p>So what you are telling me is that SoE is incapable of making an adequate risk vs. reward system with something that hasnt come out yet and because of this its ok to punish players for gearing their toon?</p><p>Doesnt quite add up to me, but neither do most of the updates to this game as of late.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p></blockquote><p>Punishment? It seems more likely they dont want the content trivialized and are finding ways to correct mistakes which have gone uncorrected far too long. Max AA and level are not hte trivializing factors which are detrimental to the health of the game which has gone unchecked, overpowered raid gear being allowed in heroic zones is. For that matter maybe they should start by putting a check at the heroic instance doors which require a minimum number of people to be in group to zone in, say maybe 3-4 and then check like Estate of Unrest does that if the number of people in the zone does not stay within its acceptable range people get booted out or better, declare the zone trivialized like The Splitpaw raid does. Of course the whole zone rushes you then and kills you and you get locked out which is fun but it makes a clear point.</p><p>The fact SOE has let raid gear trivialize much of the heroic content for years now unchecked and it has been detrimental to the economy and the general health of the game is more the punishment to those not in raid gear.</p><p>I enjoy both play styles, I wish we had the capability to create various equipment sets on our person and storage of those sets was not a hinderance. It would, I think, be quite a bit of fun to compile the best sets of gear you could for solo/heroic and raid for each tier of play and have those sets activate based on the content you are playing so you could actually play the content as was intended at the time of design. </p></blockquote><p>So once again.</p><p>How is it a good idea to punish people for playing eq2, learning their classes abilities and honing them with AA's, gear and everything else at their disposal?</p><p>This entire feature reeks of SoE being unable to create actual risk vs. reward content and somehow through this inability to create proper content punishing players became a good idea?  I'm just amazed that more players are not as curious as I am.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>We are not punished, we are rewarded as no other big MMORPGs have this feature at all. (NWN isn't exactly a mmorpg.)The worst things in this game are the spelling errors, the half-finished Shader 3.0, the slow game engine not performing in an optimal way, and the dungeon finder not being cross-server. Those are "punishments" or problems.Being able to make your own dungeon and play others' using temp-avatars is not. On the contrary, I hope we can use our arena champions for these dungeons so they get a renewed purpose. Some of them took an effort to gain. The arena can be fun to play but people tend to complain about them being empty instead of finding people to play against.I hope this feature too will be cross-server even though I suspect it won't. Either way, I look forward to it. Gonna be a refreshing experience and a nice change from all the gear grinding.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Pixiewrath@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We are not punished, we are rewarded as no other big MMORPGs have this feature at all. (NWN isn't exactly a mmorpg.)</p></blockquote><p>Guess you missed out on design your own adventure in city of heros...</p><p>Anyway, it isn't remotely difficult for them to design a the dungeons to provide a buff package equal to the average gear score of the group zoning into it.  Well, maybe its difficult for them, but it shouldn't be difficult to design such a mechanic.</p><p>You could even have difficulty seletors based upon your gear score and rewards scaled according to your base score and the difficulty you selected.</p><p>Or, you could go the cap route, and just cap stats at x values so no one can overpower the designed dificulty, but they still get to play their toon with their abilities, and their aa, etc, etc.</p><p>Or you just accept that DYOD dungeons are just xp grind fests and don't offer rewards beyond some shards and master crafted quality gear.</p><p>All are sollutions that allow people to play their characters and address the issues surounding challenge levels.</p><p>Also, to address some other things mentioned in this thread, I doubt DYOD will have _any_ scripting for encounters.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>I would put itemization being a complete mess in terms of risk vs. reward and lack of desirability as the #1 issue in eq2 today.</p><p>#2 doesnt even matter if they don't fix #1 in the immediate future.</p>

[NardacMM]

<p>The biggest problem with the most recent BG changes was that there was no reward for players who do not play on the PvP servers.  The only thing you could obtain was PvP gear, which is useless for most of us.</p><p>As long as they provide a reward system that allows you to obtain items for your character, then it's not the end of the world.</p><p>My only caveat is that the devs should be reviewing the dungeons, choosing those that are best, updating the mob placement, and loading them into the game for us to play with our own characters.</p><p>If we're using avatars to "test" the dungeons prior to the Dev review & implementation into Prod, then it makes sense</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>yes yes. punish the min maxers becuase since you know, the DEVS haven't been able to create content that the min maxer spreadsheet studying every possible combination of aas and abilities and gear procs and adorns for the absolute optimal kick your teeth in dps/hps/tanking setup that you guys don't either steamroll in 2-3 days in heroic instances and burn through raidwise in a couple months. But we should allow them to use those same toons in content designed by a player without access to the even most basic scripting or mob spawning ability.</p><p>they are making you use Avatars to limit the ways you can uberpower yourself against the content. it lets the people building the dungeons focus on the dungeon itself, layouts, traps, puzzles...rather then them trying to figure out how to create an encounter the HM raiding Drunder and EoW geared 90/300 toon can't look at and kill it with thier raidiating uberness.</p><p>I imagine most of the token stuf will be for things like more powerful avatars, appearance gear, maybe some nice/decent adventure gear or adorns, and I bet a lot of components for the dungeons themselves. the idea being you run the dungeons to get neater stuff to put in your own so you can point and laugh at the people being slaughtered in yours.</p>

[Valena]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yes yes. punish the min maxers becuase since you know, the DEVS haven't been able to create content that the min maxer spreadsheet studying every possible combination of aas and abilities and gear procs and adorns for the absolute optimal kick your teeth in dps/hps/tanking setup that you guys don't either steamroll in 2-3 days in heroic instances and burn through raidwise in a couple months. But we should allow them to use those same toons in content designed by a player without access to the even most basic scripting or mob spawning ability.</p><p>they are making you use Avatars to limit the ways you can uberpower yourself against the content. it lets the people building the dungeons focus on the dungeon itself, layouts, traps, puzzles...rather then them trying to figure out how to create an encounter the HM raiding Drunder and EoW geared 90/300 toon can't look at and kill it with thier raidiating uberness.</p><p>I imagine most of the token stuf will be for things like more powerful avatars, appearance gear, maybe some nice/decent adventure gear or adorns, and I bet a lot of components for the dungeons themselves. the idea being you run the dungeons to get neater stuff to put in your own so you can point and laugh at the people being slaughtered in yours.</p></blockquote><p>In other words they are reinventing Dungeon Keeper? DK was awesome back in its day but it was a game made about making Dungeons. EQ2 isn't a game about making dungeons, but it is soon to be a game that has a poor copy of Dungeon Keeper embedded into it.</p><p>Many companies diversify away from their core marketplace, and many then spin off those new loss-making divisions to re-focus on their core expertise. It just seems crazy to me that so much Dev time is being spent making non-core gameplay when I'd bet that the majority just don't support Avatar gameplay. Of course Sony won't actually do any market research to see if that is the case, they just take the easy route when designing.</p>

[gourdon]

<p><cite>Whiplash@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>gourdon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><p>  However, I'm sure some raid geared players will still complain since they will have no gear adavantage.</p></blockquote><p>More Raider hate? Really?</p><p>Believe it or not Raiders appreciate challenge. Learning raid strategies is a challenge, executing them week in and week out is a challenge, getting 24 players to work together is a challenge. If we didn't like challenge then we'd all be doing EM raids every night rather than pushing progression.</p><p>Wanting DYOD to use player characters rather than avatars is nothing to do with not wanting challenge, it's about wanting to play the characters that we have spent years developing which is the entire point of an MMO rather than a single player game.</p></blockquote><p>Not raider hate and not suggesting that raiders don't want a challenge.  Instead it is an understanding that raiders expect to have an advantage and some will complain if that is taken away, which is what would happen if my suggestion were taken.</p><p>As for wanting to use one's own characters rather than some pre-built, that is what pretty much everyone wants.  Duh!  The problem is that the dungeon builder is automated.  It will tune the dungeon and reward without oversight and will be prone to exploitation.  To simplify the problem of measuring difficulty, the power of the characters playing through it need to be standardized.  I was suggesting a way that character power could be standardized and we could use our own characters.  It isn't perfect, but much better than suggested.</p><p>Your entire post is a response to a single line of mine interpreted completely out of context.  Then you venture into an explanation of a principle I clearly agree with as though I hadn't written more than that single line.  Did you comprehend that I was suggesting a way that they might let us use some semblance of our characters, standardized to some power level, rather than some dumbed down 5 button avatar?  You do understand that there is absolutely no chance they will just let us play our characters as is in those dungeons, right?  It is a difficult enough task making sure the tool can't be exploited when the character power is standardized.  It will be impossible with the ridiculous difference in character power that currently exists in the game.</p>

[gourdon]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pixiewrath@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We are not punished, we are rewarded as no other big MMORPGs have this feature at all. (NWN isn't exactly a mmorpg.)</p></blockquote><p>Guess you missed out on design your own adventure in city of heros...</p><p>Anyway, it isn't remotely difficult for them to design a the dungeons to provide a buff package equal to the average gear score of the group zoning into it.  Well, maybe its difficult for them, but it shouldn't be difficult to design such a mechanic.</p><p>You could even have difficulty seletors based upon your gear score and rewards scaled according to your base score and the difficulty you selected.</p><p>Or, you could go the cap route, and just cap stats at x values so no one can overpower the designed dificulty, but they still get to play their toon with their abilities, and their aa, etc, etc.</p><p>Or you just accept that DYOD dungeons are just xp grind fests and don't offer rewards beyond some shards and master crafted quality gear.</p><p>All are sollutions that allow people to play their characters and address the issues surounding challenge levels.</p><p>Also, to address some other things mentioned in this thread, I doubt DYOD will have _any_ scripting for encounters.</p></blockquote><p>Measuring a gear score and tuning appropriately adds one more dimension to the difficulty calculation.  This probably multiplies the amount of testing necessary by at least 3 times (best, worst, typical gear cases).  In terms of programming complexity, the increase will be significantly higher because their difficulty algorithm won't be just a linear equation.  It will be a non-linear algorithm with a very large parameter domain.  I'm guessing they don't have the resources to spend what will be more than three times the effort to get a worse result, because three sampling points will still lead to a bad fit.  This might be added as an incremental change down the road, but they've chosen not to make it right now, and it isn't a triviality.</p>

[Gladiolus]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I almost responded to this thread and then I realized it was started by Talathion ... and thought better of it.</p></blockquote><p>Of course dis/agreeing with someone you do/not like is much more important than considering what he says.</p>

[d1anaw]

<p>The bottom line is if you don't like it, don't want to do it, don't. Some people are acting as if they have no choice in whether or not they have to participate in this activity, some even going so far  as to say SOE is "forcing" them to do so. Well wrong. No one is forcing you to do anything. I don't know if this will be a good or a bad thing and neither does anyone else at this point. I have never been in the arena, never played battlegrounds and hate LON. Not one of those things had had any affect on me one way or the other. That doesn't mean no one else should have access to any or all of them because I have no interest in them. It doesn't mean they are invalid because they are of no interest to me. And it doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. And it's the same for this. If you don't want it, don't do it. Problem solved.</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ridolain@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for gearing their toon?</p></blockquote><p>The avatars might even be overgeared and raidgeared as well, why not let us mix/match with players?</p><p>When did it become a good idea to punish people for getting max AA, when did it become a good idea to punish people for choosing the right spec, when did it become a good idea to punish people for min/maxing gear?</p></blockquote><p>Is there a reason for you wanting to play as your toon?  (Outside the normal reasons)</p><p>Do you want to get easy exp, AA, and items by farming it out like you can do in CoX?  Because if so, I'm glad one can't do it.  But my opinion .. I hate easy buttons.</p></blockquote><p>So what you are telling me is that SoE is incapable of making an adequate risk vs. reward system with something that hasnt come out yet and because of this its ok to punish players for gearing their toon?</p><p>Doesnt quite add up to me, but neither do most of the updates to this game as of late.</p></blockquote>

[therealnakorox]

<p>To those that say it is not fair to "PUNISH" the uber raiders...I will ask you a question.</p><p>Are Marines "PUNISHED" because they can not use real guns in a paintball war? Their military skill will still give them an advantage, they just have to use the same tools as everyone one else...</p><p>or</p><p>In a iRoc race where all cars are prepared indentically, are the richer teams being "PUNISHED" because they can't use their overwhelming financial advantage to make the car more importantant than the driver...</p><p>The replacing your character in a DYoD sounds a little like replacing your mount in an Aether Race, I suppose the people that can't use the mounts they fly with every day are also being "PUNISHED"</p><p>I also would like to use my own character but I have no problem with my equipment, items and abilities replaced with items that level the playing field.</p><p>Please try to defend your position that you are being "PUNISHED" because I can't get into the game right now and am a little bored...</p>

[Mermut]

<p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To those that say it is not fair to "PUNISH" the uber raiders...I will ask you a question.</p><p>Are Marines "PUNISHED" because they can not use real guns in a paintball war? Their military skill will still give them an advantage, they just have to use the same tools as everyone one else...</p><p>or</p><p>In a iRoc race where all cars are prepared indentically, are the richer teams being "PUNISHED" because they can't use their overwhelming financial advantage to make the car more importantant than the driver...</p><p>The replacing your character in a DYoD sounds a little like replacing your mount in an Aether Race, I suppose the people that can't use the mounts they fly with every day are also being "PUNISHED"</p><p>I also would like to use my own character but I have no problem with my equipment, items and abilities replaced with items that level the playing field.</p><p>Please try to defend your position that you are being "PUNISHED" because I can't get into the game right now and am a little bored...</p></blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>I wouldn't mind if they made me use gear that only worked inside the instance, but when they take away my characters skills/abilitys it doesn't make sense.</p><p>Infact the entire thing does not make sense.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To those that say it is not fair to "PUNISH" the uber raiders...I will ask you a question.</p><p>Are Marines "PUNISHED" because they can not use real guns in a paintball war? Their military skill will still give them an advantage, they just have to use the same tools as everyone one else...</p><p>or</p><p>In a iRoc race where all cars are prepared indentically, are the richer teams being "PUNISHED" because they can't use their overwhelming financial advantage to make the car more importantant than the driver...</p><p>The replacing your character in a DYoD sounds a little like replacing your mount in an Aether Race, I suppose the people that can't use the mounts they fly with every day are also being "PUNISHED"</p><p>I also would like to use my own character but I have no problem with my equipment, items and abilities replaced with items that level the playing field.</p><p>Please try to defend your position that you are being "PUNISHED" because I can't get into the game right now and am a little bored...</p></blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p></blockquote><p>Learning to play new "avatars" in these dungons will provide a challenge of itself. Fooling around in the Maj'Dul arena can be quite refreshing considering all those areana combatants are very diverse.</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p></blockquote><p>My main point was that nobody is being punished.</p><p>I am not saying that the rumors/guesses that people are talking about here is a perfect plan. I do like the concept of DYoD and I think it is good that they are trying to put everyone on a level playing field, especially when it is first released. Anyone that thinks that the DYoD is not going to have substantial changes over the next year(s) is being shortsighted. I totally agree with the logic start slow and make it hard to exploit in the beginning and add things as people work out the kinks. Hopefully at a minimum the characters we use in the DYoD's at least have our names...</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p></blockquote><p>My main point was that nobody is being punished.</p><p>I am not saying that the rumors/guesses that people are talking about here is a perfect plan. I do like the concept of DYoD and I think it is good that they are trying to put everyone on a level playing field, especially when it is first released. Anyone that thinks that the DYoD is not going to have substantial changes over the next year(s) is being shortsighted. I totally agree with the logic start slow and make it hard to exploit in the beginning and add things as people work out the kinks. Hopefully at a minimum the characters we use in the <span style="color: #ff0000;">DYoD's at least have our names</span>...</p></blockquote><p>That would be an insult and a slap in the face.</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p></blockquote><p>My main point was that nobody is being punished.</p><p>I am not saying that the rumors/guesses that people are talking about here is a perfect plan. I do like the concept of DYoD and I think it is good that they are trying to put everyone on a level playing field, especially when it is first released. Anyone that thinks that the DYoD is not going to have substantial changes over the next year(s) is being shortsighted. I totally agree with the logic start slow and make it hard to exploit in the beginning and add things as people work out the kinks. Hopefully at a minimum the characters we use in the <span style="color: #ff0000;">DYoD's at least have our names</span>...</p></blockquote><p>That would be an insult and a slap in the face.</p></blockquote><p>I suppose your right...to any player that depends on gear and bonuses it would be a "Slap in the face"to be exposed as a medicore player when you only have your skill to make you look better than everyone else.</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>salty21db wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who's to say that the top rated dungeon every month will be reviewed by the devs and then put into the game later on or such?  Or contests wont be held to do the same?  Jumping to conclusions ftw.</p><p>Brilliant idea imo if it is used in that nature.  Getting the players to do the work for you and ultimately there will be a set group of people that can't complain about said dungeon as they voted for it.  I mean people set on here and in chat channels daily complaining about every little thing, every little detail, every little aspect of everything put into this game.  If the players are the ones putting it in and voting on it, well, gl complaining about it lol (although im sure the community will find a way).</p></blockquote><p>Some people complain because they enjoy complaining...Some people complain because that don't think anyone should be happy if they are not...Some people complain because they get more attention...There are many reason that people complain that are not directly related to what they are complaining about.</p><p>I submit if more than half of someones posts are complaining about something and they rarely post positive feedback...maybe the current topic they are complaining about is not the real issue.</p>

[ratbast]

<p>when i found out the arena only allowed avatars, i lost all interest.</p><p>there is a familiarity and security of knowing your toon and its abilities/effects and having a sense of its limitations and weaknesses.</p><p>i roll a toon for a reason, i dont just close my eyes and click on any class.</p><p>losing my abilities, and essentially playing a different toon doesnt even resemble a minigame. in the crafting minigame, im still my character.</p><p>in dyod, you will be on different toon, with different abilities, playing a separate game that happens to transfer its rewards into eq2.</p><p>if you enjoy the core of what eq2 adventuring is about, this will feel like a distraction, and loss of focus by designers, muddling the game into disjointed "less-than minigames".</p><p>when i first heard about dyod, i was very excited. player driven content is my ideal. if this program is a bridge to making that happen, i say great. until that happens, and toons are included, its just fluff blurring the lines of what it means to enter norrath.</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>when i found out the arena only allowed avatars, i lost all interest.</p><p>there is a familiarity and security of knowing your toon and its abilities/effects and having a sense of its limitations and weaknesses.</p><p>i roll a toon for a reason, i dont just close my eyes and click on any class.</p><p>losing my abilities, and essentially playing a different toon doesnt even resemble a minigame. in the crafting minigame, im still my character.</p><p>in dyod, you will be on different toon, with different abilities, playing a separate game that happens to transfer its rewards into eq2.</p><p>if you enjoy the core of what eq2 adventuring is about, this will feel like a distraction, and loss of focus by designers, muddling the game into disjointed "less-than minigames".</p><p>when i first heard about dyod, i was very excited. player driven content is my ideal. if this program is a bridge to making that happen, i say great. until that happens, and toons are included, its just fluff blurring the lines of what it means to enter norrath.</p></blockquote><p>I understand your opinion would agree that would be better if you played a stripped down version of yourself. I will still give it a try and keep an open mind until I see first hand what it is like (hopefully next week...).</p><p>Do you feel the same way about the occasional quest where your toon is transformed into something where you lose your abilities? There have been quests in both EQ and EQ2 as far back as I can remember.</p><p>I don't think the items that can be gotten from them should be better than X2 and a significant effort to get that. Nobody should be "forced" to do this if they do not enjoy it. But the reward should be enough to make them worthwhile to the people who do.</p><p>I am also hoping that sufficient lore is added to explain the transformation...</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>when i found out the arena only allowed avatars, i lost all interest.</p><p>there is a familiarity and security of knowing your toon and its abilities/effects and having a sense of its limitations and weaknesses.</p><p>i roll a toon for a reason, i dont just close my eyes and click on any class.</p><p>losing my abilities, and essentially playing a different toon doesnt even resemble a minigame. in the crafting minigame, im still my character.</p><p>in dyod, you will be on different toon, with different abilities, playing a separate game that happens to transfer its rewards into eq2.</p><p>if you enjoy the core of what eq2 adventuring is about, this will feel like a distraction, and loss of focus by designers, muddling the game into disjointed "less-than minigames".</p><p>when i first heard about dyod, i was very excited. player driven content is my ideal. if this program is a bridge to making that happen, i say great. until that happens, and toons are included, its just fluff blurring the lines of what it means to enter norrath.</p></blockquote><p>I understand your opinion would agree that would be better if you played a stripped down version of yourself. I will still give it a try and keep an open mind until I see first hand what it is like (hopefully next week...).</p><p>Do you feel the same way about the occasional quest where your toon is transformed into something where you lose your abilities? There have been quests in both EQ and EQ2 as far back as I can remember.</p><p>I don't think the items that can be gotten from them should be better than X2 and a significant effort to get that. Nobody should be "forced" to do this if they do not enjoy it. But the reward should be enough to make them worthwhile to the people who do.</p><p>I am also hoping that sufficient lore is added to explain the transformation...</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p></blockquote><p>My main point was that nobody is being punished.</p><p>I am not saying that the rumors/guesses that people are talking about here is a perfect plan. I do like the concept of DYoD and I think it is good that they are trying to put everyone on a level playing field, especially when it is first released. Anyone that thinks that the DYoD is not going to have substantial changes over the next year(s) is being shortsighted. I totally agree with the logic start slow and make it hard to exploit in the beginning and add things as people work out the kinks. Hopefully at a minimum the characters we use in the <span style="color: #ff0000;">DYoD's at least have our names</span>...</p></blockquote><p>That would be an insult and a slap in the face.</p></blockquote><p>I suppose your right...to any player that depends on gear and bonuses it would be a "Slap in the face"to be exposed as a medicore player when you only have your skill to make you look better than everyone else.</p></blockquote><p>So skilled players dont know how to gear/aa their toons, but unskilled players do?</p><p>I've heard many excuses from bad players, but this is a new one, well played.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>salty21db wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who's to say that the top rated dungeon every month will be reviewed by the devs and then put into the game later on or such?  Or contests wont be held to do the same?  Jumping to conclusions ftw.</p><p>Brilliant idea imo if it is used in that nature.  Getting the players to do the work for you and ultimately there will be a set group of people that can't complain about said dungeon as they voted for it.  I mean people set on here and in chat channels daily complaining about every little thing, every little detail, every little aspect of everything put into this game.  If the players are the ones putting it in and voting on it, well, gl complaining about it lol (although im sure the community will find a way).</p></blockquote><p>Some people complain because they enjoy complaining...Some people complain because that don't think anyone should be happy if they are not...Some people complain because they get more attention...There are many reason that people complain that are not directly related to what they are complaining about.</p><p>I submit if more than half of someones posts are complaining about something and they rarely post positive feedback...maybe the current topic they are complaining about is not the real issue.</p></blockquote><p>Some people complain in the hopes that a major feature which required a large portion of dev time isnt wasted before its even released.</p>

[therealnakorox]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote>Some people complain in the hopes that a major feature which required a large portion of dev time isnt wasted before its even released.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Development time is not wasted because a small portion of the player base doesn't like the feature... Actually I would not even say it is wasted if only a small portion does like the feature.</p><p>What percentage of people actually spend more than 1% of their online time decorating their homes. Most of my stuff is thrown into one room and the items I frequently use are right by the entrance. And the layout of you home has zero to do with adventuring in EQ2. I am not saying items in your home can't help, just how they are placed. Do some people enjoy? YES Have I toured a few houses? YES WOuld I miss it if it was gone? NO But I would miss the players that would leave because it was not here.</p><p>A huge % of people will NEVER be in a top 5 raiding guild. Should content for the top five be considered a waste a developement time? I know many will say there is not enough high end content now but everyone knows when high end zones are released they are usually much harder than they are 1 year later...</p><p>We can move on to tradeskills, gathering... or any of the other things that caters to a subset of EQ2 population. Whether I like to do it or not I do not begrudge those that do. If as many people like the DYoD feature as like decorating their houses then I would say it is a success. Any that knows with 100% certainty whether or not it was a waste of developement time with the extremely limited amount of information we have about it now should design the next groundbreaking MMO.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>therealnakorox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mermut wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they were just replacing gear, I'd concede your point. And I think adjusting equipment to an average level inside player build dungeons would be a good idea. I dislike the idea of not being able to play my own characters, with their know Combat Arts, Spells, etc. For me, at least, it isn't about gear, it's about playing character classes/types I know, like and have spent time with.</p></blockquote><p>My main point was that nobody is being punished.</p><p>I am not saying that the rumors/guesses that people are talking about here is a perfect plan. I do like the concept of DYoD and I think it is good that they are trying to put everyone on a level playing field, especially when it is first released. Anyone that thinks that the DYoD is not going to have substantial changes over the next year(s) is being shortsighted. I totally agree with the logic start slow and make it hard to exploit in the beginning and add things as people work out the kinks. Hopefully at a minimum the characters we use in the <span style="color: #ff0000;">DYoD's at least have our names</span>...</p></blockquote><p>That would be an insult and a slap in the face.</p></blockquote><p>I suppose your right...to any player that depends on gear and bonuses it would be a "Slap in the face"to be exposed as a medicore player when you only have your skill to make you look better than everyone else.</p></blockquote><p>So skilled players dont know how to gear/aa their toons, but unskilled players do?</p><p>I've heard many excuses from bad players, but this is a new one, well played.</p></blockquote><p>I beleive that was a particular barb at Talathion who rumor has it is not really good at playing his class, but is seen as 'uber' becuase his gear is all bought...which means he has a ton of focuses/effects/procs and such that make him appear a lot better then he is.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Your entitled to your opinions.</p><div></div><p>But... gearing out your character is also something a good player does, he has to know which foci is best and know what foci's do, and know what blue stats do and what stats help his class best, you don't get better shoving on any piece of gear.</p><p>Also, there is no way I could offord every piece of gear I have on now.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>edited out.</p>

[Nefain]

<p>Gah - I should of read up on the expansion more.  I came back only because I heard about the ability to create your own dungeons.  If I can't use my own characters and gain exp adventuring through them it's pointless to me.   Guess it's cancel time already ;(</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>Don't panic Nefain, it might be fun using avatars too. Just because you can't use the toon inside the actual dungeon, there is nothing preventing you from getting cool rewards in them that might possible be for your main toon. I don't expect uber loots, but maybe some furniture, mounts or appearance gear ^_^</p>

[Cocytus]

<p>I think it will be a ton of fun using avatars, but really negates a large amount of my use in that we can't use our own characters.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>You can still use your own characters. Just not in the Dungeon Maker dungeons <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[clairebear]

I'm most interested in what the rewards will be for completing dungeons. I think that will be a major factor in whether many will use it.

[Pixiewrath]

<p>All that we know is that rewards depend on difficulty, and that they can be used to improve your own dungeons.Not sure what loots and rewards will be beside that, but as long as there is a lot of variation, I am content with that.As long as the avatars we use for the dungeons are interesting enough.Only about a month left to find out <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So far, they haven't opened up the dungeons on he beta server from what I recall from the webcast. Only the new freeport.</p>

[Homeskillet]

<p>I bet the folks on Sony's side pushing this don't even recall the Maj'dul/Freeport arena that you can use your little champions in. I run into so many folks that don't even know those exist. This will end up the same way; used by a few people at first for the fluff then forgotten.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>I agree. They should have some tutorial window for the Maj'Dul arena and the dungeon maker once you reach a certain level.It's the same with chronomancing. Lots of people doesn't know you unlock more rewards by doing the quests, since the merchants mention nothing of it so they think the armors are the only things you can get, and miss out on all the replicas.(Which should be made resizable btw.)</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>The rewards from these dungeons are quite interesting actually.</p><p>Despite the trolls that want everything their way, it is a game. If you dont want to participate in this facet of it, dont. Simple enough. This is a very diverse game and not every facet is for every one. </p><p>That said , the rewards are as such ...</p><p><ul><li>Heirloom tokens - Smokejumper has confirmed you receive a token for running the dungeons. These tokens will provide XP / AA and can be redeemed by any character on your account.</li><li>The dungeons, once published by the designer, will be reviewed by the game for difficult and loot / token values assigned. Players dont have control over the rewards of what they design.</li><li>Avatars - you may not gear them, there are about a dozen or so. Some can be purchased, some drop as loot within the game, some are quested possibly. These are much like the arena champions. They are balaned to work with the dungeon mob spawners and such so overgeared toons dont trivialize the challenge ranking given by the game concerning the dungeon. And honestly, if you can figure out how to operate these avatars in relatively short order in comparison to a full version toon, Hello Kitty Island awaits~</li></ul><div>As for the Maj'Dul arena - you can use both characters and avatars there, most dont know that either. Buffs reset after each match, another thing of note. The arenas are quite fun because they pit player skill against player skill and you learn quickly about the strengths and weaknesses of the various champions available.</div><div></div><div>A big difference is the rewards from them. The Maj'Dul arenas provide titles, open up purchase rights to other champions, house item trophies and such but they have no affect on your primary playable toons whereas the XP/AA tokens will from the dungeons.</div><div></div><div>What I am unsure of with regards to rewards is what other loot will be available from them. It is something I am looking forward to, it has interesting potential to be expanded to a dev kit for player made content if they continue to develop it which means more playable areas for players.</div><div></div><div>It may, at some point, be expanded to include playing your actual characters - the Maj'Dul arena was although most dont know that.</div><div></div><div>Have fun~</div></p>

[Brigh]

This reminds me of the monster play someone reminded me of in EQ 1. You play as something else to give your character rewards. I don't recall ever playing that myself. If I did, it was so long ago and so few times.

[Kasar]

<p><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It may, at some point, be expanded to include playing your actual characters - the Maj'Dul arena was although most dont know that.</blockquote><p>Not long after those went in, the dueling function was added for all servers and the PvP servers launched, so nobody cared about those boring zones. </p><p>If those maps are indicative of what this tool allows, they can keep it.</p>

[gourdon]

<p><cite>Kasar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It may, at some point, be expanded to include playing your actual characters - the Maj'Dul arena was although most dont know that.</blockquote><p>Not long after those went in, the dueling function was added for all servers and the PvP servers launched, so nobody cared about those boring zones. </p><p>If those maps are indicative of what this tool allows, they can keep it.</p></blockquote><p>Not so much.  Monster missions were introduced with Depths of Darkhollow(2005).  Gates of Discord(2004), the pvp expansion, happened first.  My recollection when DoD released that there were many characters camped AFK near the MM quest givers.  Red names on blue servers weren't very common by then.</p>

[Terron]

<p>Roleplaying is an important part of the game for me.</p><p>Playing an avatar does not sound like it would be fun as it would lack the roleplaying aspect.</p><p>So restricting the dungeons to avatars is killing the DYOD feature for me.</p><p>Restricting the quality of gear allowed in a dungeon and buffing the mobs if higher quality gear is allowed would seem a better way to go.</p>

[Pixiewrath]

<p>I like that we use avatars as it will give us something to strive for.Collecting avatars, and learning new ways to play. It will be refreshing.I liked collecting avatars for the Maj'Dul arena even if some of them are super un-balanced. It's a shame so few people actually use the arena...</p>

[dawy]

<p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I bet the folks on Sony's side pushing this don't even recall the Maj'dul/Freeport arena that you can use your little champions in. I run into so many folks that don't even know those exist. This will end up the same way; used by a few people at first for the fluff then forgotten.</p></blockquote><p>My thoughts since day one,you forgot the battlegrounds as well of course <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>I will be running them until SOE allows weaponsmiths to make craftable temp adorns for 5% crit bonus instead of the 1% currently out there.</p>